Reasons NOT to join DVC

[magicofdisney]

If you extrapolate my costs out, $1,000 for 10 nights = 40 nights for $4,000. And that would be in a 1 BR suite. Who got the better deal? Not to mention you'd have saved on your passes, too.

And, of course, this isn't even factoring in the 500 lb elephant in the room which is inflation. Even assuming my annual maintenance fees nearly double from their current rates, 25 years from now I'll still be paying $1,000 a year for those 10 nights vacation.

But how much will your 35 nights be costing you?

The problem I see is that you don't have enough points to stay 40 nights a year. It appears your points limit you. Unless you want to pay OOP to stay longer, but then your math goes out the window.

I understand about inflation. Maybe I'll change my mind later, but I still feel I'm getting the better deal right now because I have more freedom and flexibility. And yes, I'm a FL resident, so quick trips are something I look forward to and count on.

[Ian]

The problem I see is that you don't have enough points to stay 40 nights a year. It appears your points limit you. Unless you want to pay OOP to stay longer, but then your math goes out the window.

You're missing the point (pun intended) ...

I don't have enough points to stay 40 nights a year, but for the money you're currently spending on your vacations you could.

[DizneeRX]

So my "$1,000" a year buys me roughly $5,000 worth of vacation.

If you extrapolate my costs out, $1,000 for 10 nights = 40 nights for $4,000. And that would be in a 1 BR suite. Who got the better deal? Not to mention you'd have saved on your passes, too.

And, of course, this isn't even factoring in the 500 lb elephant in the room which is inflation.

Nice spin but...
40 nights for $4000 - this is just the maintenance and other fees. You forgot to add the cost of the points you would need to buy - roughly $64,000 (that 800 lb gorilla seems to have squashed your little, tiny elephant....)

And you did not buy vacations, you bought the right to use a hotel room. Your costs for transportation, entertainment / park passes and food, which would then make it a vacation, are certainly not included in your DVC membership.

[Hammer]

Nice spin but...
40 nights for $4000 - this is just the maintenance and other fees. You forgot to add the cost of the points you would need to buy - roughly $64,000 (that 800 lb gorilla seems to have squashed your little, tiny elephant....)

And you did not buy vacations, you bought the right to use a hotel room. Your costs for transportation, entertainment / park passes and food, which would then make it a vacation, are certainly not included in your DVC membership.

Why do you think he will need to buy more points? One of the benefits to DVC is that the points value for rooms do not fluctuate. Now the dates for the various rate seasons may change, but a studio at SSR in that resort's value season will cost 97 points and that value will not change. While maintenance fees will rise they have not risen more than a few cents per year, with one year the rate actually decreased.

Accommodations are only one cost in a vacation, but it is probably one of the most costly. I'm looking into DVC as I want to have a certain level of accommodations when I make my yearly visits to WDW. Value resorts do not give me the level of comfort and amenities I want from a vacation.

[Ian]

Nice spin but...
40 nights for $4000 - this is just the maintenance and other fees. You forgot to add the cost of the points you would need to buy - roughly $64,000 (that 800 lb gorilla seems to have squashed your little, tiny elephant....)

Actually, the problem is you failed to read my original post where I explained that the cost of my points was, in fact, included in my calculation.

My points are good for about 45 years ... actually a little more, but I'll round down ... our 160 points cost us a little under $15,000. Divide $15,000 by 45 and you get $334. Add to that my current yearly maintenance fee of $450 and my annual cost is around $800 a year for 10 nights in a suite.

And while you're correct that this only covers the room, when you factor in that they were staying at a value resort and I'm in a 1BR suite, I'm pretty sure it more than balances out. Don't forget, too, that I save $100 on each of my AP's. Plus I get tons of discounts on food and merchandise around property.

And how about I trot out a 1,600 pound gorilla to sit on your 800 pounder ... this is all in current day's dollars. My advantage will keep growing, because 10 years from now my vacations will still cost me $800 a year. What will yours cost?

[DizneeRX]

Actually, the problem is you failed to read my original post where I explained that the cost of my points was, in fact, included in my calculation.

My points are good for about 45 years ... actually a little more, but I'll round down ... our 160 points cost us a little under $15,000. Divide $15,000 by 45 and you get $334. Add to that my current yearly maintenance fee of $450 and my annual cost is around $800 a year for 10 nights in a suite.

And while you're correct that this only covers the room, when you factor in that they were staying at a value resort and I'm in a 1BR suite, I'm pretty sure it more than balances out. Don't forget, too, that I save $100 on each of my AP's. Plus I get tons of discounts on food and merchandise around property.

And how about I trot out a 1,600 pound gorilla to sit on your 800 pounder ... this is all in current day's dollars. My advantage will keep growing, because 10 years from now my vacations will still cost me $800 a year. What will yours cost?

This information is simply incorrect. With regard to your calculations - you state that "this is all in current day's dollars." It is not. I could go into an explanation of present and future value of money, opportunity costs, etc., but I suspect that any explanation that doesn't agree with you would be ignored. To make this a little easier, I suggest you check out the rules for Disney's Year of a Million Dreams promotion. One of the prizes is a DVC membership. The folks at Disney, as required by law, nicely included the price of the prize, in today's dollars. I think they put the price for 220 points at the Saratoga Springs at about $57,000 - and that is the discounted present value - today's dollars.

On a separate point: In one of your earlier posts, you say that your 160 points will get you "about 10 nights". About? Just for fun I checked out the points chart for Saratoga. According to the chart, a 1 bedroom in the cheapest season is 20 points/day Sunday to Thursday, 41 points/day Fri and Sat, 182 points / week. Apparently, about 10 days means 2 separate stays totalling 8 days. And according to the chart I saw, you would need to buy 22 additional points just to stay for 1 full consecutive week...

And on yet another separate point: The issue with the use of the word "vacation" in relation to DVC (for example, "I'll still be paying $1,000 a year for those 10 nights vacation") has nothing to do with the cost. It has to do with knowing what you bought - it's a timeshare hotel room. It's probably a nice big hotel room, it might even be the best 1 bedroom suite I'll never see. But that's what it is - a hotel room, not a vacation. It's a hotel room. In calling this a vacation, it appears that you are trying to convince yourself that got more than actually did. And it's also a testament to the effectiveness of your DVC salesman...

And one last point: Going back to your 40 nights for $4000 a year statement - The fact remains, no matter how you chose to twist the numbers around, that you would need to pay roughly $64000 up front for the points. That's quite a bit of money for most of us. And Disney is certainly not going to allow us to finance this for free over 45 years as you do in you calculation.

And this is really my last point: This is a thread for reasons not to buy DVC. There is a thread for reasons to buy DVC. I find it curious why some DVC owners persist in responding to posts in this thread.

[Hammer]

And one last point: Going back to your 40 nights for $4000 a year statement - The fact remains, no matter how you chose to twist the numbers around, that you would need to pay roughly $64000 up front for the points. That's quite a bit of money for most of us. And Disney is certainly not going to allow us to finance this for free over 45 years as you do in you calculation.

And this is really my last point: This is a thread for reasons not to buy DVC. There is a thread for reasons to buy DVC. I find it curious why some DVC owners persist in responding to posts in this thread.

Yes, it ia thread on why not to buy in DVC, but if a person's concern can be rectified, people should be able to convey that information. Note that I never argued the point that some people are happy with what a value resort offers. For some, accommodations are not that important. For people like myself, it is a large part of the budget. Neither side is wrong.

The only point of yours which I want to dispute is if you pay for your points up front and do not finance the purchase(which is what I plan to do and others have done), you will not have additional finance charges. The only fees you will incur for the length of the contract are the maintenance fees.

[Goes4FastPass]

...This is a thread for reasons not to buy DVC. There is a thread for reasons to buy DVC. I find it curious why some DVC owners persist in responding to posts in this thread.

Actually, I'm not surprised or offended that posters on "the other side of the argument" reply in both threads and it seems a bit silly or perhaps Fantasyland-like to build a wall so people with a single viewpoint can be sure they'll never read anything of the other. If a "Reasons Not..." poster writes, "DVC rooms don't have bathrooms" or a "Reasons To" posters writes, "Park admission is included" it only makes sense for someone to post a "disagreeing" reply.

Isn't the DVC as simple as, "If you pay for your room for the next 50 years in advance you'll be able to lock in the room rate" and some people respond, "I and/or my decendents are going to WDW for the next 50 year regardless of what changes come in...

• Maintenance Fees
• Park Admission
• Dining Costs
• Quality
• New Attractions Added
• Airfares
• Gasoline
• Recessions
• Minnie and Donald in a Sex Scandal
• Global Warming
• Whatever!

And the first time they hear "Welcome Home" they feel the same way a young girl does when a CM wearing a blond wig and a ball gown says, "Hello, Princess."

[Ian]

... I suspect that any explanation that doesn't agree with you would be ignored.

Much as any opinion given by anyone else that doesn't agree with yours will be ignored ... as evidenced by the fact that you won't even tolerate folks providing additional information and opinions in this thread outside of those about why you shouldn't buy.

But I digress ...

The concept of the time value of money is not lost on me and I do agree that there is certainly some added opportunity cost lost in terms of the 15 grand we spent out of pocket to buy our points.

However, some of that is offset against paying for your vacations each year because that too carries a lost opportunity cost, as well. I mean if I spend $15k today for my hotel rooms and you spend $3k a year for the next 5 years for yours then the offset in terms of lost opportunity really isn't that great. Especially not once you factor inflation into the equation, although before you say it ... yes I know that the stock market traditionally provides a return that outpaces inflation. I'm merely saying that the hedge against inflation provides some moderate mitigation of the lost opportunity costs.

As far as the points go, we are staying 5 nights in December in a 1BR for 100 points. I suppose you're right that saying I can stay for 10 nights is misleading. I just ran the numbers quick in my head and didn't check the charts, so to be fair 8 nights is a more accurate number. Although, on the flip side I could get into Old Key West and probably do 10 nights in a 1BR since the points cost less there. I could certainly do like 15 nights a year in a studio.

And I have no clue why Disney would value a 220 point contract at $57,000 except to say that A. they probably aren't counting in the $10 per point discount they're currently offering and B. that probably also includes some portion of the maintenance fees. The current cost per point at Saratoga is (I think) $94 per point, so clearly 220 points are only going to cost you about $20,600. That's a ridiculously inflated valuation, unless (as I said) it includes maintenance fees or something.

Anyway, I will fully admit that DVC isn't for everyone. If you're not particular about your accomodations, don't have a family and need a lot of space, don't plan to vacation regularly at WDW over the length of your contract, etc. then yeah ... I wouldn't really go that way.

But the IF all those things are important to you and IF you would have taken all the vacations you're going to take with DVC anyway and IF you were going to pay out of pocket for comparable accomodations then it indisputably makes both good emotional and fiscal sense.

And again ... not to lose sight of this, there are tons of other perks you get for being a DVC member that save you money. Discounts on party tickets, AP's, meals, merchandise ... that all adds up to significant savings.

[HOLITRIN]

And I have no clue why Disney would value a 220 point contract at $57,000 except to say that [/QUOTE]


The reason Disney values it at this cost is because the person winning the DVC membership has absolutely NO OOP costs. The cost of the 220 points AND the MF for the next 50 years are covered. Therefore, this is not an inflated cost.

I wish it were me that wins

[Ian]

The reason Disney values it at this cost is because the person winning the DVC membership has absolutely NO OOP costs. The cost of the 220 points AND the MF for the next 50 years are covered. Therefore, this is not an inflated cost.

I wish it were me that wins

Right, that's what I figured was the case. Thanks for the clarification!

[DizneeRX]

Much as any opinion given by anyone else that doesn't agree with yours will be ignored ... as evidenced by the fact that you won't even tolerate folks providing additional information and opinions in this thread outside of those about why you shouldn't buy.

But I digress ...

The concept of the time value of money is not lost on me and I do agree that there is certainly some added opportunity cost lost in terms of the 15 grand we spent out of pocket to buy our points.

However, some of that is offset against paying for your vacations each year because that too carries a lost opportunity cost, as well. I mean if I spend $15k today for my hotel rooms and you spend $3k a year for the next 5 years for yours then the offset in terms of lost opportunity really isn't that great. Especially not once you factor inflation into the equation, although before you say it ... yes I know that the stock market traditionally provides a return that outpaces inflation. I'm merely saying that the hedge against inflation provides some moderate mitigation of the lost opportunity costs.

As far as the points go, we are staying 5 nights in December in a 1BR for 100 points. I suppose you're right that saying I can stay for 10 nights is misleading. I just ran the numbers quick in my head and didn't check the charts, so to be fair 8 nights is a more accurate number. Although, on the flip side I could get into Old Key West and probably do 10 nights in a 1BR since the points cost less there. I could certainly do like 15 nights a year in a studio.

And I have no clue why Disney would value a 220 point contract at $57,000 except to say that A. they probably aren't counting in the $10 per point discount they're currently offering and B. that probably also includes some portion of the maintenance fees. The current cost per point at Saratoga is (I think) $94 per point, so clearly 220 points are only going to cost you about $20,600. That's a ridiculously inflated valuation, unless (as I said) it includes maintenance fees or something.

Now you're just being silly in saying that I won't tolerate folks providing additional information and opinions in this thread outside of those about why you shouldn't buy. huh? It has nothing to do with tolerating anything - I was just following the spirit and rules of this thread. (There's a post from the moderator explaining the rules of this thread a page or 2 back that you might want to read...) If you don't like the thread or the rules imposed on the thread (I assume by the moderators), don't read it. Or change the rules. (Oops, looks like you already did that...Hmmm... are you gonna take your ball and go home?).

Just to be clear - I don't have a problem with DVC - it works for some, doesn't work for others. I think everyone can agree on that. What I do have a problem with is the posters who position their DVC purchase as the greatest financial decision ever, and then support that claim with kindergarten level calculations and wrong information to prove their point. They grossly overstate the benefits (claiming to get 10 days instead of the actual 8 - a 25% error) and understate and twist the costs (you paid $15000 up front - not $300 per year for 45 years - 0%, 45 year financing? sign me up! - and don't forget the opportunity costs involved.)

Have a Magical day!

[DVC Mike]

Just to be clear - I don't have a problem with DVC - it works for some, doesn't work for others. I think everyone can agree on that. What I do have a problem with is the posters who position their DVC purchase as the greatest financial decision ever, and then support that claim with kindergarten level calculations and wrong information to prove their point. They grossly overstate the benefits...

There is no need to debate the value of DVC. Membership in the Disney Vacation Club is not for everyone. However, DVC can make sense financially. I don't believe there is any intention of "grossly overstating the benefits". I just think DVC members are delighted with their investment and wish to shout it from the rooftops, so we just come across as very enthusiastic about DVC.

Buying a DVC membership is a rational, financially viable option for some people: namely people who plan to stay in the higher-end accommodations at Walt Disney World on a regular basis.

[dlpmikki]

I am now going to close this thread. We will be opening a new thread to allow for both sides of the discussion. If the discussion becomes repetetive as it has done here I reserve the right to edit and delete posts as necessary to maintain a thread that is helpful to the readers.