Reasons NOT to join DVC

[dlpmikki]

We have a lot of discussions about whether to join DVC and what is good and bad about it. The discussions have quite often overtaken topics with more specific questions so we are setting up three topics to deal just with these questions.

This topic is for reasons NOT to join DVC - all the negatives from length of ownership to running costs. Please post any positive commenst in the 'Reasons to join DVC' topic.

[grimley1968]

Mikki,

I appreciate your putting these topics up. This is a good idea. People know pretty well by now my feelings about why not to do DVC.

I also want to apologize for being so negative about DVC in threads where people, who have already joined, were sincerely attempting to gather specific information about DVC. My comments on DVC were not particularly helpful to those people and would have been much better placed in a thread like this one.

I'll try to gather my thoughts on this into a later post about why not to join DVC, but wanted to make sure I haven't alienated those who like DVC (I can see many positives about DVC) with my off-topic posts about it. [img]graemlins/shakehead.gif[/img]

[DVC2004]

Gimley-

No offense taken here! Everyone has an opinion and not everyone wants to join DVC. It's good to have all viewpoints considered when making such a big decision!

Also, it was a great idea to start these new threads!!!

[Smee]

If you will NOT travel to WDW at least every other year ... don't join DVC.

If you can't make travel plans more than a short while in advance ... don't join DVC.

If you will usually travel to places other than WDW and DVC resorts ... don't join DVC.

If you usually stay in Value resorts and don't enjoy moderate to Deluxe resorts ... don't join DVC.

If you plan to primarily use DVC at other WDW resorts or other non-DVC options ... don't join DVC.

If don't enjoy staying onsite at WDW in great accommodations ... don't join DVC.

If you enjoy searching for discounted rates a few weeks prior to when you'd like to go and will miss that thrill of occasionally "finding" a great rate ... don't join DVC.

DVC is more for those who will enjoy the stability of being able to reserve far in advance (11 months) at "rates" that won't change (but are already "discounted"), in deluxe accommodations with wonderful amenities and with nice perks available for members (admission discounts, dining discounts, shopping discounts, cruises, special member-only programs, etc.).

DVC will offer all of this and more. It's definitely NOT for everyone.

[grimley1968]

Originally posted by Smee:

If don't enjoy staying onsite at WDW in great accommodations ... don't join DVC.

If you enjoy searching for discounted rates a few weeks prior to when you'd like to go and will miss that thrill of occasionally "finding" a great rate ... don't join DVC.

I'm catching more than a faint whiff of sarcasm here. I'd prefer this thread stay sincerely one of reasons NOT to join DVC. Mikki set this thread up for a specific purpose.

Actually, I do enjoy staying at great WDW accommodations. My signature bears that out. Also, I've only once made reservations a "few weeks out", in 2001. All other times I made them at least 3 months, and one time, 6 months in advance. Finally, I don't occasionally "find" a great rate. I look for them exhaustively, until I find one I can live with.

I understand you love DVC, and I don't blame you for that. There are good reasons, which you have stated here and in other threads. But Mikki set aside a thread for reasons TO join DVC, and also a thread for "number crunching." Those 2 threads would be better suited to be an advocate for DVC.

Seriously, I'm looking for a justification to make the plunge, but haven't quite seen it yet. However, my bosses just told me we're opening an office in Ocala, which might tilt things considerably in favor of us buying in. My wife has more convincing to do.

It seems you are implying that anyone who does not cough up the considerable amount of money it takes to join DVC is just too dumb to plan their own vacations wisely. Maybe you did not mean it that way, but it sure is the way it comes across.

[ December 13, 2004, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: grimley1968 ]

[Smee]

Since no one else had offered any reasons NOT to join DVC, I offered some valid reasons and I'll stand by all of my comments and suggestions. If anyone has a question about any specific comment, I'll be happy to try to explain further.

There was no hidden agenda or sarcasm intended or implied. Sorry you chose to view my honest comments in that fashion.

If you want to try to read into my comments with any other agenda, you're on your own.

DVC definitely does not work for everyone. The above comments were merely an attempt to identify situations and travel habits that may indeed prove to be less effective from within DVC.

[Grinder]

Originally posted by Smee:
DVC definitely does not work for everyone.

You are right. Certainly, DVC does not work for the members. However, DVC renters benefit.

At $10 or $11 per rental point (which is the going rate), it is virtually impossible for a DVC member to stay in their accommodations cheaper than a person who rents DVC points, now or in the future.

Non-DVC members are able to rent everything that a member can rent. There is a surplus of people who rent for $10/point. If you're willing to pay $11/point, even better. The inventory available is exactly the same, because all that's happening is the member is calling up for you and making a reservation that he or she could make for themselves. Plenty of people know they won't be going next year, so you can even find members willing to rent to you who will call exactly 11 months in advance so you can get exactly what you want.

If I had bought 40 year DVC contract ten years ago and had used it for 10 years, then I would have used 25% of its property life up. Would you then pay me the same amount (or more?) to buy that from me even though there is only 75% of the useable property life product left? Of course not. Resale's of the DVC are obviously cheaper.

Next, in 20 years (actually it will only take 18 years) as DVC owners start to realize that their DVC "investment" is half way gone, values will plunge and the DVC will offer extensions (they have already done this once) to "double dip" the members. The smart members will bail out while a few will get stuck and go to their graves thinking that the DVC was a great financial deal.

However, most DVC owners will regret their "investment" long before the year 2042 because the DVC has you locked into the contract. You have no choice except to sell the contract or rent the points or default!

Have you ever noticed that DVC resale's are always available? The DVC supply far excedes the demand. "Time" is the enemy of the DVC members and the friend of WDW because DVC members don't own fee simple title.

In conclusion, just realize that the DVC is a very expensive prepaid vacation plan. You will never "break even" nor will you save any money over renting DVC accommodations either today or to infinity and beyond!

[Smee]

Originally posted by Grinder:
You are right. Certainly, DVC does not work for the members. However, DVC renters benefit.

You are correct in saying renters benefit, but members also benefit- usually more than the renter. Members can rent to regain money on points they otherwise wouldn't use. At $10 they are able to get as much as $6+ more than their annual dues for those same points. As indicated in the "number crunching" thread above, the actual cost for those points is likely as low as $6.25 even when you include purchase price. I know a lot of individuals who would be delighted with that return.

At $10 or $11 per rental point (which is the going rate), it is virtually impossible for a DVC member to stay in their accommodations cheaper than a person who rents DVC points, now or in the future.

Absolutely not true. Even at $10 the member will stay for much less. (See reference above)

Non-DVC members are able to rent everything that a member can rent. There is a surplus of people who rent for $10/point. If you're willing to pay $11/point, even better. The inventory available is exactly the same, because all that's happening is the member is calling up for you and making a reservation that he or she could make for themselves. Plenty of people know they won't be going next year, so you can even find members willing to rent to you who will call exactly 11 months in advance so you can get exactly what you want.

True. Not an indication of anything except the desire of some members to oblige others in return for the ability to rent something they are otherwise unable to use.

If I had bought 40 year DVC contract ten years ago and had used it for 10 years, then I would have used 25% of its property life up. Would you then pay me the same amount (or more?) to buy that from me even though there is only 75% of the useable property life product left? Of course not. Resale's of the DVC are obviously cheaper.

Wrong!! If you had purchased 10 years ago, you would have had about 48 years remaining on your deeded ownership ... and would still have 37+ years today. All contracts (except for SSR) end in 2042- regardless when they were purchased.

Next, in 20 years (actually it will only take 18 years) as DVC owners start to realize that their DVC "investment" is half way gone, values will plunge and the DVC will offer extensions (they have already done this once) to "double dip" the members. The smart members will bail out while a few will get stuck and go to their graves thinking that the DVC was a great financial deal.

Wrong again. No extensions to DVC contracts have ever been offered to date. Actually, the halfway point for the original resorts will come in 2017- less than 13 years away and yet the resale prices are still escalating. SSR contracts have another 24 years to the halfway point. Since opening in 1991, the purchase price has continually risen - the original cost was $51 per point and is now $89 for the original resorts and effectively $85 at SSR 9including current purchase incentives). Resales of those original contracts are now selling at $20-25 higher than when purchased and those owners have had the full use of the accommodations during that time.

You are correct that at some point, the resale values will likely fall (once DVC drops it's ROFR interest which artificially props up the resale price) and we'll get to witness what the market feels is the value for the remaining years.

However, most DVC owners will regret their "investment" long before the year 2042 because the DVC has you locked into the contract. You have no choice except to sell the contract or rent the points or default!

I sure haven't noticed any indication that this is true yet, but it may happen. It is common in the timeshare industry when owners feel they have gotten value out of their property, abandonment of the title is not an unusual occurence. I expect that DVC will also follow that path- once DVC stops the resale price support with ROFR. Until that time, you won't find many that feel trapped.

Have you ever noticed that DVC resale's are always available? The DVC supply far excedes the demand. "Time" is the enemy of the DVC members and the friend of WDW because DVC members don't own fee simple title.

In conclusion, just realize that the DVC is a very expensive prepaid vacation plan. You will never "break even" nor will you save any money over renting DVC accommodations either today or to infinity and beyond!

With about 90,000 owners, it's expected that for a variety of reasons, a small percentage (a very small percentage) will sell their interest. To assume it's for any single reason is very wrong. To suggest it has anything to do the title is very, very inaccurate. Every member does hold a deed recorded by the county (we can even look it up online in the Orange County recorders office). Ownership may be transferred by an estate, gifted to family members or sold (subject to ROFR) to another party.


"Break even" came within 5 years for my family. Those who choose to rent their points (even at $10) are realizing a healthy return on their actual costs. Virtually every member who purchased prior to 2002 can sell their ownership for at least what they originally paid and most will realize a significant return on that sale- in addition to also having great accommodations available during their ownership.

DVC is certainly more expensive than many other timeshares. Being onsite at WDW does come with some cost. DVC's capital reserve (paid for from our annual fees) offers great protection from future maintenance costs (unlike many other timeshare programs).

The feeling our family has with every DCV trip ... PRICELESS!!

[dlpmikki]

Please can folks resist debating points made in these topics. I know it is tempting but these are arenas for opinions not debate.

If there are points to be made use one of the other highlighted topics - number crunching is the only one where varying opinions are encouraged!

[Cinderelley]

For me, the biggest negative for DVC is that it isn't yours forever and ever. We have two timeshares that we'll have as long as we live, and then they will be passed down in our family from generation to generation. I don't like the idea of having a "contract" that will expire at such and such year. To me, it just seems like Disney used its fans to finance and upkeep some of its hotels. I undertand that this is what goes on whenever you rent a hotel room. Whenver you get a hotel room though, they don't make it appear that you have bought a piece of the pie.

[donald-doc]

Sticking to the points- away from opinions.

Here are reasons NOT TO JOIN:

1- You don't like Disney World. [img]graemlins/rotfl.gif[/img]

2- You are not interested in staying at one of the DVC resorts (includes Hilton Head and Vero) at least every other year. It is typically NOT favorable to use points out of the system.

3- This would be a financed purchase. (Don't sell your car to pay for this).

4- You think that this is a "financial investment." I beilieve that you save money- but you do NOT make money from this.

5- Currently, I think that the buy in price is a bit steep- even for the 50years at SSR. The return value is slipping.

[ December 14, 2004, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: donald-doc ]

[DisneyLuvnNooks]

You know, these threads were a great idea, a chance for people to post a reply on positives or negatives on DVC. So far, all i see on this thread is non DVC people bashing DVC owners, are they jealous about not owning DVC.
What should happen is DVC owners writng about any negative eperiences that they might have. But, since there does not seem to be any, i guess there are no negatives.
Please stop bashing DVC if you do not own, I want to hear any negatives from DVC owners themselves.

Moderator, maybe you should start a 4th thread on this topic.............
JEALOUS NON DVC OWNERS WHO WANT TO BASH IT!!!!!!

[TheRustyScupper]

As a DVC owner, my thoughts are:

Don't buy into DVC if you ...
... don't do WDW yearly.
... consider this as an investment.
... can't schedule vacations 11 months in advance *
... want a budget vacation **
... frequently trade for non-DVC resorts
... sacrifice the family budget in other areas


* Although you can do last-minute vacations, popular times of the year need advance scheduling, or you may not get the dates you desire.

** The total cost for a DVC week will average more than $1100 over the life of the contract, including maintenace fees, fees inflation, purchase price and interest.

[grimley1968]

Originally posted by DisneyLuvnNooks:
You know, these threads were a great idea, a chance for people to post a reply on positives or negatives on DVC. So far, all i see on this thread is non DVC people bashing DVC owners, are they jealous about not owning DVC.
What should happen is DVC owners writng about any negative eperiences that they might have. But, since there does not seem to be any, i guess there are no negatives.
Please stop bashing DVC if you do not own, I want to hear any negatives from DVC owners themselves.

Moderator, maybe you should start a 4th thread on this topic.............
JEALOUS NON DVC OWNERS WHO WANT TO BASH IT!!!!!!

Actually, there was another thread for DVC owners to discuss any negative experiences regarding DVC. This thread was created specifically to allow people to give reasons to NOT join DVC. Please read Mikki's purpose for this thread.

Also, if you'll notice many of the posts, they are from DVC owners who are honestly giving reasons NOT to join. That's certainly not bashing it. Read their signature lines if you don't believe me. Most of the posts, even on this thread, have signatures saying they are DVC owners of this or that resort. They are proud owners of DVC, and I value anything they have to contribute toward an intelligent decision by a potential future DVC customer (me).

I'm not a DVC owner, and I've certainly given some reasons I see not buy into it, but I don't think it's fair to say I've been "bashing" it, or the owners.

This thread was created for a specific purpose. Please try to stick to it. If you want to read negative experiences by actual DVC owners, there are plenty of other threads that contain those.

I also would not say I'm "jealous" of DVC owners, just because I'm trying to gauge all the positives and negatives of DVC ownership, before shelling out $14,000. I suppose I'm jealous of people who don't have to think twice before doing that, but I have to think long and hard about it, and I want to know everything possible I can about it.

[ December 15, 2004, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: grimley1968 ]

[CantonMichigan]

A couple negatives

1) No member representation on the Board (the current board answers to Disney, not the owners)

2) As an owner, you're hoping the level of service stays high, but there are no guarantees. With the drop-off in the level of service (e.g. decreased operating hours in the parks) over the past few years, I get nervous about this sometimes.

[grimley1968]

Originally posted by CantonMichigan:
A couple negatives

1) No member representation on the Board (the current board answers to Disney, not the owners)

2) As an owner, you're hoping the level of service stays high, but there are no guarantees. With the drop-off in the level of service (e.g. decreased operating hours in the parks) over the past few years, I get nervous about this sometimes.

Who is on the board? Are there boards for every DVC resort?

I don't see the text "DVC Owner" in your signature, but I assume you are, given the places you've stayed at in the past, and you're knowledge of something like DVC board composition. I just want to make sure you're not a jealous non-DVC owner who's bashing DVC.

[AndrewJackson]

Originally posted by Grinder:

At $10 or $11 per rental point (which is the going rate), it is virtually impossible for a DVC member to stay in their accommodations cheaper than a person who rents DVC points, now or in the future.

This is we chose not to join DVC. We rented 104 points last spring break. We were just about ready to join, and we decided to try this instead.

We just could not justify the expense, when we could stay at BCV for the same price as a moderate, without the investment or commitment to do it.

[DisRuss]

I HAVE COME TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR DVC AND NON DVC PEOPLE TO COEXIST, LET ALONE DISCUSS SOMETHING CIVILLY, THIS SHOULD BECOME A SEGREGATED DISCUSSION BOARD.

MY NAME IS RUSS AND I AM IN SUPPORT OF A SEGREGATED INTERCOT

(note the sarcasm)

[Septbride2002]

We looked into joining DVC and decided against it for the following reasons:

1) We enjoy the oppurtunity to pick a resort based on our cost at that time and what we are in the mood for. For instance if I want to stay at French Quater - I want to be able to do so. If I want to stay at AKL in a standard room - I want the option.

2) The fact that on top of the expense for the resort that does not include admission into the parks. So in addition to the price of the DVC, the dues, and the admission to the parks we would spend about the same amount of $$ anyway over the next 10 years. Once the DVC price was paid would we actually begin to save money and that only happens if the dues do not continue to increase. And there is no set amount that the Dues will increase or not increase every year. No cap.

3) The contract limit - If I am going to spend this kind of money on a timeshare I want it to be there for a lifetime. I'm only 25 so in 42 years I'll only be 67 - still very young in my opinion.

4) I felt it took away from flexibilty and to be honest I enjoy the hunt. I love hunting for the best resort deal, best ticket deal, etc etc. It is part of the joy of planning to me.

5) We really were not sure if we would want to continue vacationing every year to Disney. Actually we are pretty sure that in January that will be our last trip for awhile (of course we have the cruise in May - but that to me doesn't count as a Disney Park trip). We will be doing Napa Valley in 2006 for a friends wedding and in 2007 we want to go to Hawaii.

~Amanda

[TheRustyScupper]

Originally posted by Septbride2002:
... We looked into joining DVC and decided against it for the following reasons ...

1) In your case, these are EXCELLENT reasons.
2) As you mentioned, DVC is not for everbody.