Dishing on Downton- Downton Abbey Season 5

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

I completely disagree with you on the Edith storyline. Yes, it was hard for the farmer's wife, and I'm sure Marigold will have some issues with that for now. But I think everyone was completely insensitive to Edith, especially Mary. After what Mary went through with Matthew, you think she could have shown her sister some understanding.

I can't blame a woman for moping around when she had the news she was dreading at last, the confirmation of her loved one's death. She was mourning, and it was especially hard because everyone kept carrying on around her like it was nothing. But it acted on Edith as a catalyst to stop living the life forced on her and to make her own choices, choices made possible by her inheritance as it turns out. And I say, good for her! I see it as Edith finally turning her back on the rigid rules and making her own way. It's too bad for the farmer's wife, but she would have cut Edith off entirely from Marigold, which was against the whole purpose of settling Marigold there in the first place.

Do you remember those Burger King commercials, with the mascot in the big head (still freaks me out) and people would wake up and he'd be next to them in bed, or they'd open their windows first thing in the morning and he'd be there? Well, that's what Edith was turning into. Mrs. Drewe wasn't privy to Edith's secret, all she knew was that an old friend of Mr. Drewe died and asked them to raise the child. So to have Edith stalking the Drewe's and the child was naturally troubling to Mrs. Drewe. If Edith would have simply told her the truth and not been so selfish about her position and reputation maybe things would have been different, but it was her own actions that were creating the chain of events. Sybil managed to marry way out of class and marry and raise her child Catholic, despite her families and societies condemnation of it, yet Edith possesses none of that courage.

She lets everyone else make the choices for her and then she herself shows no remorse in ripping apart someone elses life. I don't see Edith's loss any greater than Mary's, probably less so as they were not together all that long. If Mary were still carrying on like that a year later I'm sure Edith would have had some choice words for her as well. Yeah the timing wasn't great, but Edith is sitting around wondering why all of York hasn't stopped living until she came to terms with it.

Mary lost Mathew, Tom lost Sybil, Cora lost a son, the house lost a footman to the war, Mrs. Patmore lost her nephew, Anna was raped, Bates was in jail, its not like Edith has a monopoly on the "woe is me" category.

I just find her character to be written very unsympathetically.

[SBETigg]

Yes, Cindy, I loved those scenes, too. Especially Cora finally showing some backbone. And I love Mary in viper mode, too. Great developments.

We're just going to disagree on Edith, Ghost. I have sympathy for Mrs. Drewe. She loved Marigold as her own, and it's horrible to have her ripped away. It was always conditional and she should have been informed of the conditions (probably by her husband, not by Edith) but the fact remains that Edith finally has a way to raise her own child of course, she's going to take it.

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

Yes, Cindy, I loved those scenes, too. Especially Cora finally showing some backbone. And I love Mary in viper mode, too. Great developments.

We're just going to disagree on Edith, Ghost. I have sympathy for Mrs. Drewe. She loved Marigold as her own, and it's horrible to have her ripped away. It was always conditional and she should have been informed of the conditions (probably by her husband, not by Edith) but the fact remains that Edith finally has a way to raise her own child of course, she's going to take it.

Was it conditional? I'm trying to recall exactly what the agreement Edith and Drewe struck. Was there actually any intent for Edith to at some point take the child back? I didn't think so, but I could be mistaken.

Edith took the child back from the Schroeders to be closer to Edith in England. But didn't Edith say that was ok, because, well, they got another kid anyway.

I didn't think there was any plan for Edith to ever recognize the child, just be the child's patron.

It was doomed to fail from the beginning, keeping Mrs Drewe in the dark, as you knew Edith couldn't stay away.

[SBETigg]

I didn't think there was any plan for Edith to ever recognize the child, just be the child's patron.

It was doomed to fail from the beginning, keeping Mrs Drewe in the dark, as you knew Edith couldn't stay away.

Yeah, that was the condition, that Edith would maintain contact. Once Mrs. Drewe cut off Edith instead of allowing her to be the child's patron, Mr. Drewe should have seen it coming and intervened more successfully somehow. It was a bad plan all around, though, I can agree on that. Someone was bound to be hurt in that arrangement, and I can't imagine why Mr. Drewe was willing to take the risk knowing that he was deceiving his wife to help Edith. And anyone could see that Edith was determined to be more in her child's life than a casual visitor.

[Katzateer]

Yes, I am tired of Bates and Anna storyline going back to Mr. Greene. Lets move on from that enough already. I like Rose. Her character is confusing the way her storylines jump around but for the most part, I have enjoyed her. Soooo glad Ms. Bunting is gone.

I love Violet and Isobel! Hope Tom finds someone- like his character. Thomas not so much - his character is not very enjoyable. I do like Mr. Moseley but Violet's butler with his puffed up, snotty attitude - don't understand why she puts up with him?? Did I miss something???? He is so rude to her guests.

Hope Edith finds happiness. I wish she could just bring the toddler home and be accepted.

[Katzateer]

I never did make it to Winterthur in Delaware to see the Downton Abbey costume exhibit- did anyone get to go? It was billed as the only American display for the exhibit but I think now it as moved to a southern location (maybe the Biltmore Estate??cant remember what the paper said)

[TheDuckRocks]

I think that sometimes we lose the fact of Downton Abbey was in a time very, very different from what we live today. I doubt that the term "double standard" was ever considered then, so Robert and Cora's relationship of course is rather hard to imagine today. And the very idea of a young woman of Edith's station openly having and raising a child without marriage would indeed be covered up.

[MNNHFLTX]

She lets everyone else make the choices for her and then she herself shows no remorse in ripping apart someone elses life. I don't see Edith's loss any greater than Mary's, probably less so as they were not together all that long. If Mary were still carrying on like that a year later I'm sure Edith would have had some choice words for her as well. Yeah the timing wasn't great, but Edith is sitting around wondering why all of York hasn't stopped living until she came to terms with it.

Funny, I have a completely different perspective on the whole situation with Edith. I have always thought she was a very independent, practical character on the show. When she was stood up at the alter by Sir Anthony, she picked herself up and was at the breakfast table the next morning because "only married women have breakfast in bed". She pursued a writing career, an unusual thing for a woman to do back in the day. And now she has the power and money to take the situation with her daughter back into her own hands. I also feel empathy for Mrs. Drewe's character, but Edith will undoubtedly be a more hands-on mother than Mary has ever been. Marigold will be just fine.

It's not that I really like Edith on the show as much as I like her in comparison to Mary, lol. Aside from her ratting Mary out in the first season for her "indiscretion", Edith has been mostly loyal to the people in her family, while Mary is mainly loyal to Mary and Downton Abbey. When Mary said in this last episode that Gregson was a nice man but "I don't know what he ever saw in Edith", it was so snarky in light of everything going on that it almost made me laugh. This from someone who moped around in dark rooms for pretty much all of season 5 after Matthew died. Anyway, now as she considers which suiters she should allow to pursue her, she puts Anna's relationship with Bates at risk by asking her to hide her "device" for her (I knew that was going to happen!) Ugh! Anway, it's funny how we all have our favorites (or least favorites, as it may be). Guess the show must be doing something right to make us want to debate the subject, lol!

[magicofdisney]

I finally caught up on my shows last night.

I loved Cora's tactic for getting Grantham over himself. However, it almost felt like a catch 22. For his sake, he should be thankful that she is a forgiving person.

I'm so glad Ms. Bunting is gone.

I've wanted Edith to have her baby from the beginning. I do have sympathy for Mrs. Drewe, but I'm happier for Edith. And while her mourning has lasted a while, the confirmation just arrived and that is what Mary should take into consideration. I'm officially back to disliking Mary.

Mabel Lane Fox is taking Mary in stride. Perhaps it's just for show until she wins back her man. Either Gillingham has changed or I have because I don't much care for him anymore, either.

Thomas really does have a friend in Baxter. Why does he constantly do things to push people away? Periodically he bemoans his lack of friendship and yet he constantly brings it on himself. I don't understand the psychology of his motives.

I find it ironic that we're supposed to accept the double standard given Cora because of the way things were in those times. Yet, we're supposed to believe that Thomas's orientation would have been generally accepted without question. Honestly, as accepting as everyone has been, why is he trying so hard to change? The only impression I've ever had as to why people dislike him is because of how unpleasant he is.

How come no one caught on before that Bates' ticket wasn't torn? Were they just so shocked to know he'd made the purchase in the first place?

OK, I'm slightly confused with the Carson-Hughes storyline. Do you think he wants to marry her? Would it not be out of the ordinary for an unrelated man and woman to invest together during that time period? However, I do love their interactions. He's so formal and she loosens him.

Speaking of formal, I love Spratt. He makes Carson look like a laid back farm hand. Talking with that stiff upper lip cracks me up. I laughed when Violet said the whole household panders to Spratt and he rules with an iron fist. He and Denker are another set I'll enjoy watching.

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

I finally caught up on my shows last night.

I find it ironic that we're supposed to accept the double standard given Cora because of the way things were in those times. Yet, we're supposed to believe that Thomas's orientation would have been generally accepted without question. Honestly, as accepting as everyone has been, why is he trying so hard to change? The only impression I've ever had as to why people dislike him is because of how unpleasant he is

I don't think Thomas' orientation is as accepted as the show puts on. I think it was end of season 2 or 3 and I think someone was trying to blackmail Thomas and Robert said something like "well, I thought everyone knew" like it wasn't a big deal. But look at the movie that is out right now starring Benedict Cumberbatch, "The Imitation Game" which is about a British codebreaker during WWII that breaks the Germans Enigma code. But post WWII he was imprisoned for his "orientation" and later committed suicide. So while Downton might accept Thomas for who he is, Britain as a whole would not have been accepting in 1924, not when 30 years later they were still imprisoning people for the "illegal act".

[SBETigg]

I really love Cora this season. Last season, she was so simpering and helpless, and this season we have a more take-charge Cora-- at last. I'm glad they brought her back to a Cora we can appreciate. I also love Violet reminding Mary that a lack of sympathy can be as vulgar as a show of emotion, and her confession about missing her companionship with Isobel was really well done, too, especially her "have some cake" recovery from it.

[TheDuckRocks]

I also love Violet reminding Mary that a lack of sympathy can be as vulgar as a show of emotion.

A loud "Yes" and a fist pump caused my husband to look at me as if I was from another planet. Oh well, after 52 years you'd think he'd be used to me by now.

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

Did anyone catch the Dowager vs. Isobel clip that ran after the credits?

After the show ended I was fast forwarding (as it always seems to end 4-5 minutes prior to the hour on my dvr) and as I was getting to the end they had a special 2 minute or so segment on the quips/barbs between Violet and Isobel, and then started to keep score, like in a tennis match

The Dowager one 8-3, or something like that, although Isobel did land a couple good one-liners.

The scene with Cora-Rosamund-Edith in the publishing house actually for once showed Cora as somewhat commanding instead of someone who seems to be self medicating. Ironically, from what I understand that was an added scene on PBS and not shown in the original UK airing. Unfortunately that same scene increased my dislike for Edith as she once again gave not one whit or care about how the Drewe's felt about her actions. Edith has gone from an annoyance to probably my most disliked character on Downton. The idea that she somehow went from an inexperienced lady of the house to a columnist to now running the company(???) is unbelievable at best, and I hope that Julian Fellows simply comes up with another Robert line like "I just talked to Murray and the company is sold, Edith is off the hook" and then forget that story arc ever existed.

Watching Cora and Edith try to hatch a plan came off more like dumber and dumber imo, and is doomed to blow up. Makes Cora a hypocrite in my book, as she blasted the Dowager for not telling her that she has a grandchild, but now is apparently fine hiding that secret from Robert, in his own house!

There are really a lot of mediocre story arcs going on this season; continuance of Anna/Bates/Green, Mary and her suitors, Edith and child, Barrow and his issue of the day, I really hope they just wrap these up and move on fresh in Season 6.

BTW, that was a great dinner party, only made better if Ms Bunting somehow had been there.

[SBETigg]

Still in disagreement on Edith. I can suspend some disbelief and buy into her running a publishing company, as much as I can believe that Mary is a sought-after beauty despite being an ice queen or that Robert was willing to take money from Matthew and let him co-manage the estate. And I can let go of the Drewes. I think even they realize they have served their purpose and it's time to move on. It is, after all, a soap opera style drama. I think we have to let some things go as far as the reality checks and complete accuracy. Though of course, you're free to dislike Edith. She remains one of my favorites and I prefer her to Mary by far.

[MNNHFLTX]

I was underwhelmed by this episode. Edith going off with Marigold only to come back the next episode was anti-climactic. It would have been much more interesting if she had stayed in London as an independent woman (and yes, owner of a publishing company).

Really, the best part of the show was the bittersweet ending with Isis. That was a scene that I could definitely relate to as far as Cora and Robert's emotions.

[magicofdisney]

I guess the thing that bothered me regarding this episode was Anna gossiping about seeing Mr. Drewe and the child on the train. She of all people should understand the consequences of gossiping. It seemed very out of character to me.

[Melanie]

So is all that is left is the Christmas episode?

I'm very tempted to go looking for spoilers to see how things shake out with Anna. I'm over the Bates in eternal trouble storyline and although I never do spoilers, I'm ready to know on this.

[AgentC]

So is all that is left is the Christmas episode?

I'm very tempted to go looking for spoilers to see how things shake out with Anna. I'm over the Bates in eternal trouble storyline and although I never do spoilers, I'm ready to know on this.

Yes, I think that is correct. Just one left. It's so funny you posted this. I was just trying to decide the same thing myself.

[AgentC]

I guess the thing that bothered me regarding this episode was Anna gossiping about seeing Mr. Drewe and the child on the train. She of all people should understand the consequences of gossiping. It seemed very out of character to me.

Yes. I though that was a bit of a weird scene too.

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

Yes. I though that was a bit of a weird scene too.

I don't think so. If you look at the entire context. I think it was right after the fire, as Anna and Mrs. Hughes were straightening up Edith's room, Anna found the picture of Marigold under Edith's pillow.

Also, keep in mind, Mrs. Hughes was I believe the only staff person, other than Bates, to know about Anna's rape by Mr Greene, so that in and of itself, kind of secures a bond between the two.

Fast forward to the train station, it wasn't surprising that Anna started putting two and two together (even Robert did somehow ). So for her to discuss it with Mrs. Hughes I didn't find to be gossip, just one more piece to the puzzle. Now if she had been saying it to Barrow or Mosesly or Daisy, then yes I could see it as out of character gossiping about Mr Drewe and Marigold. But as her confidant was Mrs. Hughes, it seemed natural.

What didn't seem natural was Robert figuring out Marigold's true parentage, not by recognizing her as a child of Edith but instead by recognizing the resemblance to Gregson, someone he only met a couple of times (as an adult). That and his casual acceptance of the fact of an illegitimate granddaughter seemed a bit unrealistic.

Best part of the episode was when the inspector arrested Anna and Mary shouts out "I AM LADY MARY CRAWLEY!!" and called for her release, to which the inspector from Scotland Yard replies "I don't care if you are the queen of the Upper Nile". That was a great line and an excellent scene overall. Its just too bad its taking 2+ seasons to get thru a story arc that nobody really cares about.

Barrow finally had a good turn, turning the tables on Denker, that was a nice little one-off, as is the continuing battle of the servants at Dowager house.

Its a strange show, in one sense most of the characters are still in the same position that they were two years ago; Anna/Bates still unresolved, Mary again back to no suitors, Edith still wallowing in self pity, Tom not sure if he is staying or going, Barrow being his nasty self etc. The show is just so well done its easy to look past the fact that it has started to evolve into a somewhat poor soap operaish feel and that the stories really haven't gone anywhere for quite some time.