Disney is creating a World of Haves & Have-Nots

[SelfmadeWade]

Yes, I am aware that Fastpass+ is not fully operating for us to judge it yet, but as I read more and more about it, it occurs to me that Disney World is creating a Caste System in its theme parks.

Within in the next year or so - Put simply: If you stay at a Disney hotel, you get to have Fastpass - and if you stay off property, well, sorry, go stand in that two hour line. ( But first pay us a $100 to get into the park to stand in that line).

I know that Disney is operating a business and the almighty dollar rules. I also know that many will argue that there is nothing wrong with offering perks such as Fastpass to entice people to stay on property.

Here is the problem: Fastpass has worked FAIRLY for years in the parks where everyone was treated equally. Now, Disney is stating out loud that you will have to pay ( by staying at Disney Resort) to get to have it. Calling it "magical" does not remove its stink.

There are MANY, MANY people who can barely scrape enough money together to get their family to Florida to stay in a cheap hotel to get their kids to Disney World. In my opinion, treating those who don't stay on property as second-class citizens while they are actually in the parks can only lead to disaster. It may take some time, but eventually, the "day guests" will stop coming. Why would they pay to go somewhere where they feel inferior?

[faline]

I'm not saying that Disney should create a better system for those staying on-site than for those staying off-site but, it does seem to me, that this is becoming standard practice in any number of theme parks. Stay at Universal to get front of the line access. Go to another theme park not associated with a hotel and buy a front of the line pass.

[Giggy]

Yes, I am aware that Fastpass+ is not fully operating for us to judge it yet, but as I read more and more about it, it occurs to me that Disney World is creating a Caste System in its theme parks.

Within in the next year or so - Put simply: If you stay at a Disney hotel, you get to have Fastpass - and if you stay off property, well, sorry, go stand in that two hour line. ( But first pay us a $100 to get into the park to stand in that line).

I know that Disney is operating a business and the almighty dollar rules. I also know that many will argue that there is nothing wrong with offering perks such as Fastpass to entice people to stay on property.

Here is the problem: Fastpass has worked FAIRLY for years in the parks where everyone was treated equally. Now, Disney is stating out loud that you will have to pay ( by staying at Disney Resort) to get to have it. Calling it "magical" does not remove its stink.

There are MANY, MANY people who can barely scrape enough money together to get their family to Florida to stay in a cheap hotel to get their kids to Disney World. In my opinion, treating those who don't stay on property as second-class citizens while they are actually in the parks can only lead to disaster. It may take some time, but eventually, the "day guests" will stop coming. Why would they pay to go somewhere where they feel inferior?

Got to say I agree with this. We have never liked the pay extra system Universal use.

It's fair enough that people can expect to get what they pay for in terms of extra magic hours, nice hotels, etc. Don't agree with making it at the expense of other guests though as is the case here.

Obviously FP+ is here to stay now but still quietly hoping Disney will come up with a fairer system on how to organise them.

[DVC2004]

Well unfortunately, all I can say is that Disney is for profit, publicly traded business. They can do whatever they please to be profitable, and if people will pay for it then they will continue to make business decisions that will make them money. I don't see how this can be looked at as fair or unfair in the eyes of the consumer. It simply just "is". While many people have fallen on tough times in this country, Disney has a global customer base. Does it mean it will price people out of vacations? Probably but it also looks like Disney is willing to take that chance.

When I go to Universal, I am aware that I have to pay extra for express pass, or stay on property, or I have the choice to wait in line. There have been times I have opted not to pay extra and just wait. It's not unfair, those are my choices. I can pay more and save time or I can opt not to pay more and wait the old fashioned way. I don't feel like a second class citizen or that others are more important. The power is in my choice of the options given.

A vacation really isn't something that everyone can afford. I have relatives that have never taken their children to Disney, and probably never will, because even a basic trip is out of their price range. If people can't afford, they don't go. I don't know what else to say about it. I am not trying to come off as uncaring, that is just the way the world is. Lots of things aren't fair so to speak. Disney isn't any different.

[mom2morgan]

I think Walt would absolutely agree with the OP - I suspect he'd be rolling over in his grave about this. My understanding has always been that one thing Disney prides themselves on is being fair and equal and not like all those other parks. Besides, I've also heard it argued here that a perk for on-site guests wouldn't work well ANYWAY since 80% of the Disney guests are already staying on site! It's not like Universal where only a small percentage are, and so the head of the line privilege provides REAL time savings benefits.

[Brooklynos]

We choose to stay on-site and will continue to do so, however we understand that this is at a cost. We have started to plan on going every other year for a full week instead of just a few days every year because of the cost going up year after year. Yes, on-site has perks but I would hope if Fastpass becomes a cost/charge item, that those off-site will have the same opportunity to buy it as we will by having it included with our package (since I'm sure the cost of it will raise on-site prices). Plus they'll probably still pay less off-site. If Disney chooses to charge for it we will still go and vacation there as it is the most magical place changes and all for us but we'll just have to budget it in. I know we won't let this steal our magic for our trips.

[joonyer]

I have a little different viewpoint. Never mind the FP costs or incentives, guests have always had a pay a pretty hefty price of admission to Disney's theme parks. For every one of the many, many families that can barely afford park admission (and a cheap motel), there are 10 times that many families (or more) who can never even dream of a Disney vacation because of the basic costs of theme park admission alone.

Does that mean Disney has created a "caste" system of families who can afford to visit Disney parks and those who could never afford it? I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But the world has always had haves and have-nots. You could already say that the classification of Disney's resorts is already a "caste" system. You know, the poor stay at the values, the middle class at the moderates and the wealthy stay at the Deluxe hotels. Do guests who can only afford to stay in a the All-stars resort feel "inferior" to those who stay at the Grand Floridian or Polynesian resorts? Maybe so, but I'm just happy to be there at the dinky All-Star Sports motel.

I don't like Disney's "money grab" tactics any more than anyone else, but I'm still grateful that I am one of the "haves" who can afford to take my family there once in a while. I just don't buy the argument that the implementation of a "pay-for-play" FP system will make anyone feel "inferior" or that it will be a disaster. Life is not "fair" or "equal" anywhere else in the world and it has never been "equal" at WDW either. LIfe (and fun at a theme park) is too precious to let someone else with more money spoil it for me.

[Stu29573]

I feel the value of a WDW vacation has been dropping for years. For those who say its fair because Disney is a business are missing the point. In any business, when the value of the product drops in relation to the price, there are problems coming. Witness Detroit.

Say what you will about the "what would Walt do" crowd, one thing is for certain; Walt wanted his customers to get a good value for their money. I feel he would cringe at the shoddy treatment people routinely get at WDW these days.

Saying that you are just happy that you are one of the "haves" and can afford whatever Disney feeds you is troubling. Its that sort of mindset that in decreasing value overall. It also smacks of ivory towers and "let them eat cake," which no one finds attractive.

I can only hope and pray that Disney remembers the middle class families who have for years poured thousands into their coffers in the ( apparently mistaken) assumption that as a company Disney stood for something a bit more noble than typical dog eat dog business.

If not, then we can just say we were fooled since we were children and simply walk away; leaving Disney to serve cake to the ivory tower class...

[MW1218]

It's fair enough that people can expect to get what they pay for in terms of extra magic hours, nice hotels, etc. Don't agree with making it at the expense of other guests though as is the case here.

I don't see how offering a couple of FastPasses a day is any different from allowing Hotel guests only to be in the parks an hour early, or 2 hours later. People don't seem to have a problem with EMH, but now this is coming along and people are unhappy? Not sure why.

[buzznwoodysmom]

This type of system has not stopped me from going to Universal, and it likely won't stop me from going to Disney.

First of all I don't ever see us not staying on Disney property for a WDW vacation so it's not something that would potentially affect me as an off site guest vs. on site guest. I'll always be an onsite guest.

Now back to Universal. The ONLY reason we ever decided to even give the Universal resorts a try was because of this very system! We stayed onsite for 2 nights before a WDW vacation so that we could get free front of the line passes. To me it's smart business. If offsite guests were able to get front of the line passes at Universal chances are we would have never tried their resorts. Now we really can't see visiting Universal any other way. They got our business by having the onsite "perk".

As for the long standing argument that "Walt would be turning in his grave". This comes up every time someone doesn't agree with something Disney does. Let's keep in mind that Walt was a business man. And also that times have changed drastically since his passing. What he may have thought he'd never do back then, surely would have changed with the times.

[11290]

The premise that off-site guests do not have access to FP+ as stated is false. Day guests, off-site guests and those choosing not to reserve a FP in advance will have the opportunity to receive a FP in the park just as they do now, just through a different method.

There will be "stations" (currently the only one that I know being tested on a limited basis in MK is in Town Square Theater) throughout the parks with iPads and Guest Relations CM's available to "book" their FastPasses for that day, just the same as those using the MDE app will be able to, just that they may not have quite as much choice for times but will be able to see the availability on the iPad. Also, there will be a wider choice for attractions, events and so on, for selecting FP's.

FWIW: I'm not a big fan of all the RFID, Magic Bands and FP+, but trust me, it's here to stay for a long time. As a CM that works at MK turnstiles from time to time, while we may not like the "way that it works" right now, it is what it is, and don't think from this post that I am a cheerleader for FP+.

Forgot to add: if you buy your park tickets "ahead" of your trip, not matter where you are staying, you should be able to link your tickets (under most circumstances - some not) to the MDE app and reserve your FP+ times just the same as those staying on-site, at least that is the way I understand it, although things change all the time.

[lightyearfan]

The premise that off-site guests do not have access to FP+ as stated is false. Day guests, off-site guests and those choosing not to reserve a FP in advance will have the opportunity to receive a FP in the park just as they do now, just through a different method.

There will be "stations" (currently the only one that I know being tested on a limited basis in MK is in Town Square Theater) throughout the parks with iPads and Guest Relations CM's available to "book" their FastPasses for that day, just the same as those using the MDE app will be able to, just that they may not have quite as much choice for times but will be able to see the availability on the iPad. Also, there will be a wider choice for attractions, events and so on, for selecting FP's.

Me and dw agree 100% with this, i mean really , Disney isn't holding a gun to anyone's head saying you vacation here or else. Universal does it and yet no one complains, Disney will get criticised no matter what they do because they are the premier Theme Park destination . if your not stayin on property you'll still be able to do fp but in a different vain, thats all it won't be exculisve just to Disney Resort Guests, and ya you know something if you can afford to stay on property you should be able to get PERKS, and if fp+ is 1 of them then so be it.

Victor

[Quadstriker]

If you pay more, you receive benefits. This worldwide concept isn't something that Disney is immune to. Fastpasses aren't some sacred cow that won't be touched by business factors.

Now whether you feel the cost of a Disney vacation is worth the price, that's a decision for every person to make. Every business worth its salt continues to strive for that inflection point of maximizing income by balancing their price vs. how many people are willing to pay it.

The "Walt rolling over in his grave" stuff regarding fastpasses giving ride access to certain people over others gives me a chuckle. Two words: TICKET. BOOKS. If Intercot was around in the 1950s would we be wading through posts of "Oh noes someone spent more money at Disneyland than me and bought more ticket books and they can go on more rides!"

[Stu29573]

Wow, the amount of denial here is astounding. People, the value is dropping. If we dont hold Disney to their own standards they are doomed. This isnt about FP+ in particular. Its about the total experience. Wake up!!!!

[SelfmadeWade]

I think it's interesting to note that so far most of the comments with a view opposing my original post are by people who already stay regularly on property, and thus have little affecting them with the proposed new FP+ system.

As a person who stays offsite, my point is that I believe we will be paying the same as before, but we will be receiving less. For example, The Great Movie Ride has never had Fast Pass until last week when it was put in for the new FP+ system.

Did The Great Movie Ride suddenly have a surge in popularity? Of course not. Theories are that there need to be "overflow" attractions for when all of the "A List" attractions fill up from advance FP+ reservations.

Obviously, now that there will be some FP riders at The Great Movie, it stands to reason that the standby line will at times be longer than when there was never FP available.

I believe this will happen throughout all of the parks - standby lines will be longer because of the new system - especially at attractions that never had FP before. And the people who will be in the standby lines most are the off-site guests.

(I think its important to also note that most people - especially the off-site guests - don't study for a Disney Vacation like they prepare for a final exam - And all of us on these boards forget that we are actually the minority - To this day, go in any park and you will find many people who had never heard of Fast Pass until they walked through the turnstile that day. Some will say that is their own fault for not "preparing" - but I will say- once they learn about it, they like it and they feel like that can partake in it. But very soon, those people will walk-in, learn about FP+ and realize they are not able to be part of it. And there will be a much different reaction than what they have to the current FP situation.)

Take a look at any theme park parking lot (where they pay $15 to park each day) - there are MANY people who will be falling into this group of the Have-nots. And history has shown that Have-nots never respond well to "You should count your blessings for what you do have. Just pay more and you can be part of our group too. It's just that simple".

[Stu29573]

I think it's interesting to note that so far most of the comments with a view opposing my original post are by people who already stay regularly on property, and thus have little affecting them with the proposed new FP+ system.

As a person who stays offsite, my point is that I believe we will be paying the same as before, but we will be receiving less. For example, The Great Movie Ride has never had Fast Pass until last week when it was put in for the new FP+ system.

Did The Great Movie Ride suddenly have a surge in popularity? Of course not. Theories are that there need to be "overflow" attractions for when all of the "A List" attractions fill up from advance FP+ reservations.

Obviously, now that there will be some FP riders at The Great Movie, it stands to reason that the standby line will at times be longer than when there was never FP available.

I believe this will happen throughout all of the parks - standby lines will be longer because of the new system - especially at attractions that never had FP before. And the people who will be in the standby lines most are the off-site guests.

(I think its important to also note that most people - especially the off-site guests - don't study for a Disney Vacation like they prepare for a final exam - And all of us on these boards forget that we are actually the minority - To this day, go in any park and you will find many people who had never heard of Fast Pass until they walked through the turnstile that day. Some will say that is their own fault for not "preparing" - but I will say- once they learn about it, they like it and they feel like that can partake in it. But very soon, those people will walk-in, learn about FP+ and realize they are not able to be part of it. And there will be a much different reaction than what they have to the current FP situation.)

Take a look at any theme park parking lot (where they pay $15 to park each day) - there are MANY people who will be falling into this group of the Have-nots. And history has shown that Have-nots never respond well to "You should count your blessings for what you do have. Just pay more and you can be part of our group too. It's just that simple".

Very good point. By the way, I usually stay onsite, but I can see where you are coming from (why cant others?). Much of what Disney sells is intangible. Dreams and magic dont really mean much when you feel left out or ripped off. Disney is being lead by bean counter idiots rather than people with vision.

[joonyer]

No question the value of a WDW has been dropping, and apparently will continue to do so in the near future. I get it and I don't like it. I'm on board with that line of thinking.

But that's a different argument than: Disney is creating a "Have's vs. Have-nots" envy among its guests, by how it might implement the new FP+ system. Let's be clear: EVERYONE you can afford to go to WDW (on-site or off) is a HAVE. The Have-nots are the vast majority of folks who could never afford such a vacation. If we are debating that, among those who visit can WDW, it is un-fair that some will get more benefits than others, well then that is just splitting hairs, imho.

[Aurora]

Can someone please point me to where the current or future prices for FP+ are published? Or where it says that you have to stay on property to use it?

There are several things that I don't like about FP+, but paying money for it isn't one of them. Because if they were going to charge for it, I'm thinking there would be a price list leaked by now.

Maybe they will in the future, and maybe they won't. People have been claiming for years that Disney would start charging a fee for Magical Express. They haven't yet.

[Stu29573]

No question the value of a WDW has been dropping, and apparently will continue to do so in the near future. I get it and I don't like it. I'm on board with that line of thinking.

But that's a different argument than: Disney is creating a "Have's vs. Have-nots" envy among its guests, by how it might implement the new FP+ system. Let's be clear: EVERYONE you can afford to go to WDW (on-site or off) is a HAVE. The Have-nots are the vast majority of folks who could never afford such a vacation. If we are debating that, among those who visit can WDW, it is un-fair that some will get more benefits than others, well then that is just splitting hairs, imho.

Actually, I have seen the same statement made by the OP on other boards and blogs. Obviously, it is seen by some as a real issue. I see it as more of the slow erosion of quality. And in all honesty, I can see someone who could barely afford to take their kids feeling slighted when the "rich people" get to cut in front of them, causing their kids to not get to do as much. It really doesnt seem right.

[MNNHFLTX]

My issue with FP+ is that it adds another layer of complexity to planning a Disney World vacation, which is already pretty complicated, in and of itself. I'm not worried (at the moment, anyway) about it evolving into a "pay for perks" feature. If it did, though, I can understand that it might put some offsite guests off. However, I don't think that it spells disaster for the parks; people will adapt. As long as I've been on the boards (since 2000) every time there's been a change in Disney policy, people will proclaim doom and gloom and it hasn't happened yet.

Is it a good value? I'm not sure it ever was, to be honest. I used to live in Central Florida and go to Disney World quite a bit and I always remember it as being pricey (even if you could afford an expensive annual pass, you still had to pay for parking, food, expensive souvenirs). Has the quality of the experience gone down? I do feel this to be true, to a certain extent. But I never was one to wax poetic about Disney. It was always a fun place to go, and magical in the sense that I was experiencing it with my family, especially when my son was little. But if we couldn't afford it (and there were times when we couldn't), I didn't resent those that could. I never felt that Disney World was an inherent right, anymore than I feel that it is my right to cruise on the Queen Mary. If I can't afford it, I don't do it, simple as that.

As far as how Walt would feel about everything, maybe he would be disappointed, maybe he would be leading the charge. Who knows? That question gets old and is pure speculation.