Are these the "Dark Days" of DisneyWorld?

[A Big Kid]

Im just suprised at a lot of this. I have always appreciated going to WDW and I always enjoy myself. I think the resteraunts are good are the best I have ever been to no but the atmosphere is some of the best Ive ever seen. I think some of these comments are very ungrateful (at least in my opion). I dont think Disney World is bad at all I personally love it. That doesnt mean I dont dislike some things that disney has done. (Ex. Closing of Snow
White's Scary Adventure) But overall I think you should be extremely grateful to got to disney becasue many people dont have that opprotunity.

"Ungrateful," really?! We literally pay thousands of dollars for ever diminishing quality and we are ungrateful? Just a little thought, if I'm paying a king's ransom for a vacation, and the people I'm paying should be grateful to me.

[Jared]

1. Restaurant quality has gone down - DDP to blame? Budget cuts?

2. Expansion changes (or not)- no Beastly Kingdom, Various refurbs whittled away to almost nothing (Space Mountain), new construction not up to par (Dumbo ride getting damaged, Yeti issues), buildings sitting empty, such as Wonders of Life Pavilion, the Imagination building being reduced to the Figment ride and the awful Michael Jackson movie.

3. Not fixing "the show" - various elements on multiple rides not functioning, and not getting fixed, such as COP, Splash Mountain, EE, the Great Movie Ride, Fantasmic, etc, etc.

4. Poor management decisions - from the Avatarland project announcement, to the Avatarland project suspension, to taking Splash Mountain off of nighttime EMH and adding the Country Bears and Tiki Room.

5. If it's broke, don't fix it. If it works, then let's change it! - New Fast Pass system, interactive queues instead of fixing the rides themselves.

6. Nickle & diming, price increases - charging for after hour parties, the dessert party, the possibility of a $200 add-on for an "interactive Magic Kingdom Game Experience" that is currently on the exit surveys, increase in DDP prices with less offerings, increase in overall park tickets.

7. The basic idea that management at TDO doesn't really care what the consumer wants, that they just want to justify their own decisions, whether they're wanted or not (i.e. the new costumes that CMs at the American Experience have to wear).

I'm not trying to be negative. I believe that all of us *love* WDW or we wouldn't be on here posting. And things have to change. AND no matter what decision that management makes, they can't please everyone.

I would need a month to go through all the fascinating discussion in this thread, but for now, I'm going to tackle the original post point by point.

1) I absolutely, positively, 100% agree about the decline in dining property-wide. Yes, I blame the dining plan. Menus have shrunk. Theme-specific items have slowly vanished, making a majority of the restaurants across property nearly identical. Expensive options have disappeared as well to allow Disney to continue making money on the plan. And because the dining plan is now so ubiquitous, restaurants are basically forced to participate if they want to survive. It's a shame.

2) It's a shame that the Beastlie Kingdomme section was never built. We'll never know what it could have been. If Avatar winds up on the cutting-room floor, I will lament that project as well.

The empty real-estate frustrates me, especially in Epcot. Wonders of Life sits dormant for most of he year, as does the Odyssey Restaurant. The Imagination pavilion is so sad that it deserves its own thread.

3) This is the big one. It should be at the top of the list. In fact, if not for the rampant show quality issues across the four parks, this thread wouldn't need to exist. I would be able to forgive every other misstep if Disney would begin caring about show quality. I understand that we can't always have new toys -- let's at least make sure the old toys work as they should.

I recognize that Splash Mountain is a difficult attraction to maintain. But the reality remains that not too long ago, Disney would have never allowed guests to see it in its current condition. Unfortunately, the business model has changed. It's about efficiency, not show quality. Even if Splash Mountain is in dire shape, if it can still safely transport a certain number of guests per hour, management is happy and satisfied. Expedition Everest and Dinosaur are even bigger disasters at this point.

But, you may say, most people don't realize effects are broken. They probably don't even care. To that I say, you're right, to an extent. I don't think the average guests notices these minor details that matter so much to us, at least on a conscious level. But in the past, after visiting Disney and then heading over to Universal, they go home thinking that they much preferred Disney. They may not know why, but something about Disney appealed to them. That feeling stems from the details. It must be terribly sad for an Imagineer, who spent years working on a certain attraction, to ride it one day and see it running without the details he meticulously added.

4) I have been an Avatar apologist, and I'll take that to Avatar's grave. I'm not saying it was the best choice for Animal Kingdom, but I will still excited to see what the Imagineers did with it. I was (and still am) excited for the project. As for the Splash Mountain situation, I don't know. It seems a bit strange, and I understand the outcry. But I do wonder how many people were riding it late at night. I see no other explanation.

5) I admit it -- I'm a NextGen apologist (for now, at least). I don't fully understand it yet. I don't think anybody does. Until I see what it will bring to the parks, I refuse to criticize it. I think that's only fair.

Of course, it seems that Disney would be better off spending all that money to repair and build attractions. I doubt all this new technology will change my mind on that issue. But I'm still leaving open the possibility that NextGen does add some positives to the touring experience. There is too much cash being invested in this project for it to be such a disaster. Right? Please tell me I'm right.

6) Disney has always "nickle-and-dimed" its guests. That will never change. I really can't blame Disney for that as long as we receive a stellar product in exchange for that sort of expense. I still believe Walt Disney World can provide that. And the reality is that Disney only raises prices because people are still paying them. When that stops happening, things will change. Disney may be short-sighted at times, but it's certainly not stupid.

7) I think this is true to an extent. Disney's surveys are insulting. Guests did not ask for reduced entertainment offerings and higher prices, but somehow, the surveys always seem to suggest that. I wonder how that happens.

I still think Disney cares about its guests. I don't think it cares about you. Or me. Or any individual guest. As far as Disney's concerned, we're interchangeable parts. Oh, you're not coming anymore? As long as a Brazilian or an Englishman with money is willing to take your place, no big deal. We're commodities to them. I don't have an issue with that in principle, but I fear it is part of the reason show quality has declined.

Look, I realize that these things ebb and flow. Disneyland went through a significantly rougher period 20 years ago, and look at how it has emerged. I don't think these are "dark days" -- I think this is a natural downturn on the pendulum.

The problem is that it is coming at a time when competition is at an all-time high. Universal is building its market share every day, and with all these new major E-Ticket attractions on the horizon, that will only continue. Disney should be stepping up its game now. Instead, it's folding to a theme park that is committed to taking over the market. That's the frustrating part.

I still love Walt Disney World. I am an annual passholder and cherish every day I have in the parks. I'm fully capable of looking at the parks critically while still retaining my wide-eyed optimism toward them.

I do believe that things will improve one day, probably before too long. I look forward to it.

[Mousemates]

I think some of these comments are very ungrateful (at least in my opion). I dont think Disney World is bad at all I personally love it. That doesnt mean I dont dislike some things that disney has done. (Ex. Closing of Snow
White's Scary Adventure) But overall I think you should be extremely grateful to got to disney becasue many people dont have that opprotunity.

I really don't understand your mindset, I am super grateful for the people who helped me along the way in life, I am grateful for a good education and a spouse who sacrficed for me to go get my masters (whom I later returned the favor to), I am grateful to the Lord for us both having jobs during an economic turndown...I am grateful that because of these things we can take our family to WDW on a regular basis. So I am grateful for many things.

furthermore, let me also say I enjoy disney very much, and have voted for them with my wallet for many years...but make no mistake about it, when it comes to the issue of gratitude...Disney needs to be far more grateful for me (and people like me) than I am for Disney.

As you said, the opportunity to go to disney is indeed a wonderful thing, but the opportunity is a by-product of blessing and hardwork that has nothing to do with WDW itself.

Sadly, I sometimes think that this is a point that Disney has become mistaken about in recent days...for by many of their decisions they appear to have the gratitude thing reversed as well. They cut services, they often fail to maintain the show, they allow their competition to narrow the distance, and then raise prices far beyond the rate of inflation, and expect us to be grateful that they simply allow us to come visit.

Those who air their disappointment (in what some see as a lengthy trend of decline) are not ungrateful gripers, but are far more likely to be people who's expectations were raised by the "high bar" of past experiences and who notice the incremental decline they perceive in what they get for the hard earned dollars they spend.

furthermore, in my opinion, most of those complaints are voiced not because peopel take glee in bad mouthing all things Disney, but because they genuinely want to see things truly get back on track.

On a personal note, to me the downward trend is not as steep a curve as others see...we still go, we still enjoy, and plan to do continue to so for the forseeable future. I will give them a chance to kind of right the ship and hopeful they will do so.

[mom2morgan]

I really don't understand your mindset,...As you said, the opportunity to go to disney is indeed a wonderful thing, but the opportunity is a by-product of blessing and hardwork that has nothing to do with WDW itself.

Well said! I'm grateful that I can afford to go to Disney - but DISNEY is not doing me any favours! I'd assume THEY are "grateful" that customers are still coming and paying, since THEY are the ones benefitting from that arrangement!
Since I DO have money to go on vacation, Disney should be working extra hard to make sure I spend it there rather than in the many other places that want my business.

[Jared]

Don't want to clog the thread by quoting, but I agree with everything Mousemates wrote. Fantastic post.

[KevMcNJ]

Wahaha! Yeah, I've had one of those at the fastpass line at ToT. He's was all in my face. I just contacted management about him, and told him "you're just mad cuz your dressed that way."

We had late dinner reservations at the Brown Derby. It was our mistake because we had the wrong day so we showed up to go in and they were closing the place down and werent letting anyone else in

We were trying to say we know its closing time but we have reservations. It could have been easily resolved if he just asked one or two questions but he instantly went into Rent-A-Cop mode and the downward spiral was on.

I think it was a Thursday and we were supposed to be there on Friday. Something like that. He was probably ready to go home and us two rubes from SC werent going to slow his exit down.

I think we ended up having a pizza delivered to our room and we made sure to visit Guest Relations the next morning

Im sure his dog paid for it that night when he got home

[azcavalier]

Well, I started this, but I have never really weighed in and shared my actual opinion. So, here's what I think (if anyone is interested):

This whole thing reminds me of when I used to work for a small, privately owned ISP in Tucson called "The River". I was one of the operations people...I maintained the servers/routers that controlled all of the data traffic. Well, our tech support personnel would constantly complain about how bad our "product" was. They would relate horror stories that they had heard from customers who called in, complaining. I then reminded them that they were fielding *maybe* 8-10 calls a day each, and many of those were "repeat offenders" who always had problems. I then asked them how often they got calls from satisfied customers, to which, of course, the answer was "never". All they ever heard was what was wrong with "The River", not what was right, and so they had this extremely negative view. We had tens of thousands of satisfied patrons. And a couple hundred that just always had issues. The product was fine.

Here on Intercot, we get a lot of complaining, much like The River's Tech Support. So I think that we start to focus on all that is wrong at WDW. There is much that is right, and due to inevitable changes in the next few years, I am hopeful that right > wrong, by a lot.

That said, I know that TDO has not concentrated on "fixing the show", which like another poster said is really the crux of the matter. If they would keep up the existing rides, the complaining on here would probably be kept to a minimum, and we'd let some of the other things slide. The bar was set so high, and now TDO has lowered their own bar. The main reason that I love WDW over all other theme parks is because of the little things, the small details. It bugs me when I ride Splash Mountain, and the Brer Rabbit bouncing along the bushes effect is off/broken. If I ride Dinosaur, and the effect of the Carnitaurous eating the smaller dino is off, i'll be a little miffed at that.

I.E. there is definitely a problem, and it's not just that "familiarity breeds contempt". Familiarity just allows us to see the problem, because we know what it's supposed to be. We're going to WDW in two months with a young family of six that has never been before. They will have a great time, because they have no idea what the rides are supposed to be like. They will never have seen the Yeti swinging at them as they blow past. They will never have seen previous versions of SSE, or have any idea what Space Mountain's refurb was supposed to look like, or that it was ever refurbed at all.

I personally think that the restaurants are just fine. For those who say that the menus across the restaurants are very similar, the first thing that popped into my mind was that this was only the case when those restaurants are similarly-themed anyway. So, yeah, i'm going to have steak options at all american restaurants. But I don't go to strictly american restaurants. We will go to Akershus, Chefs de France, Via Napoli, Kona, Boma, Teppan Edo, etc. None of those will have similar menus. So, at the end of the week, we'll feel like there was a good variety. I agree that the buffets are mostly the same, though. But you know that going in.

Regarding grumpy CMs, I question whether or not it is different during the off-season, when we typically go. I have never been to WDW during the traditional high times, and have only had ONE CM that I would complain about. (However, I was actually breaking the rules, and he was merely enforcing them. I think that the could have handled it better, but I recognize that he doesn't know me, or how I was going to react, and he was concerned with my safety, even if he went over the top.) To those who have experienced grumpy or ambivalent CMs, when were those trips? Were they seasonal help, or full-time CMs? I would think that the full-timers who are steeped in the Disney way of doing things would be fine, whereas the temporary help would be more prone to poor service. Just a thought.

And, in the end, we'll have a great time, i'm certain. As we always do. We might run in to a couple of cast members who are grumpy for whatever reason, but the CMs who bend over backwards (especially if we show them kindness to start with) will far outweigh those grumpy ones.

[Disney Hungarian]

One thing to remember is that Walt Disney World is a Resort and not a theme park. Disneyland is a theme park.

The change started many moons ago when WDW wanted to go after, and monopolize, all of the vacationers time. Laying waste to many fun roadside attractions in the process. Since the change over, the parks seem to have taken a back seat to the hotels. Now as we have all noticed; DVC construction is getting all of the green lighting. Even to the point of closing the monorail during operating hours as we saw recently.

Feel free to agree or disagree but, I feel the change that needs to be made is that of changing the business model back to at least resort=themepark.

[Jared]

Regarding grumpy CMs, I question whether or not it is different during the off-season, when we typically go.

I'm with you on this one. I'm always surprised by the number of posts I read criticizing the cast. I don't know if I'm just more forgiving or if I've been lucky, but I can't think of one terrible experience with a cast member in all my visits to the parks. Sure, I've had poor service at restaurants and have met employees who weren't necessarily thrilled to be working, but it's always been acceptable at worst. Maybe I just have a rosy attitude toward those folks.

Feel free to agree or disagree but, I feel the change that needs to be made is that of changing the business model back to at least resort=themepark.

What, you mean the Timeshare Kingdom isn't doing it for you?

[Disney Hungarian]

What, you mean the Timeshare Kingdom isn't doing it for you?

Nope. Love the "Timeshare Kingdom"

[KevMcNJ]

Regarding grumpy CMs, I question whether or not it is different during the off-season, when we typically go. I have never been to WDW during the traditional high times, and have only had ONE CM that I would complain about. .

We always go off peak. January 2009 was when it happened

[DizneyFreak2002]

One thing to remember is that Walt Disney World is a Resort and not a theme park. Disneyland is a theme park.

The change started many moons ago when WDW wanted to go after, and monopolize, all of the vacationers time. Laying waste to many fun roadside attractions in the process. Since the change over, the parks seem to have taken a back seat to the hotels. Now as we have all noticed; DVC construction is getting all of the green lighting. Even to the point of closing the monorail during operating hours as we saw recently.

Feel free to agree or disagree but, I feel the change that needs to be made is that of changing the business model back to at least resort=themepark.

I agree with you... In fact, I think I said as much myself... I have said if it isn't a DVC project, TDO doesn't like it... WDW has become a real estate venture... The theme parks?? Eh, only secondary to real estate... Sadly, the quality shows...

[joonyer]

In all our trips, I don't ever recall having a bad experience with any CM, at at hotel or theme park; some nicer than others, to be sure, but not any incidents that I would consider reporting to management. And don't think the restuarants at WDW are bad at all, some maybe over-rated, but in fact most are much better that most other theme-park food options and many of the hotel restaurants are really good. Maybe more crowded, and noisier than they used to be (harder to get ADR's when you want them). But overall, not too bad.

But what I don't forgive is the failure to maintain the "magic"; the small details and extras that made Disney attractions so much more memorable than similar theme park attractions. When the little things, the extra animatronics (or even simple moving cutouts) aren't operating properly or need painting, and they are just allowed to sit, for weeks, months or even years now, without being fixed, well as others have said, it's just Bad Show. More than that, it results in a loss of some of the "magic that used to set Disney parks apart from the other theme parks. It's not just that others have been getting better, but that TDO has allowed the "magic" at WDW to wither a little bit too much. Makes me sad,

[RALPH]

Excellent discussion!

My boss and I were talking about this last month. The problem in our opinion is, Disney used to be a "10" on a scale of 1 to 10, where everyone else was a 6. They soon realized they could drop to a 7 or 8, and still be number 1 and make more money. I'm not so sure that is a wise strategy.


My wife and I recently discussed that this is not the same property as it was in the late 90's when we first started attending. It is noticable.

I will pay attention to the food quality on our up coming trip, to see if that has changed.

[Disney Doll]

I know I'm late, but I've always been the type who needs to mull things over.

Here's my 2 cents.

1. I think the restaurant quality is fine. We've had lots of great meals at Disney and I haven't noticed a change in that over the years. Now, I do hate the dining plan and the free dining plan just about pushes me over the edge. We purposely avoid the typical free dining periods because restaurants are just so overcrowded. I think service does suffer in those times because they just can't operate at full capacity that long without some consequence. As much as I hate dining during those times I can only imagine how horrible it must be to work in food service during those times.

2. I agree that the empty buildings are disheartening. So much untapped potential there and it's disappointing to see them wasted. However, there have been lots of great examples of expansions over the last 10 years mentioned by previous posters. In general I am happy with the new developments I've seen in that time.

3. Fixing the show is my one major complaint. The little details really do matter to me and I honestly think the Disney Park brand was built on those details that are often overlooked in other theme parks. It's the something extra that sets Disney apart and I feel like there's not enough appreciation for that. Then again, I've seen the gripes on here from people who feel like a ride should never be down and their whole vacation is ruined because one particular thing was closed for refurb so I think the customer is partly to blame on this one.

4. I don't see any horribly bad management decisions. I'm still open to Avatarland. I think it had potential and I was interested to see what would be done. Again, people want expansion, but then they complain if it doesn't fit their perfect vision. Splash Mountain for EMH doesn't bother me either. It does seem at this point that it would be easier to appease the outcry, but I honestly would not have anticipated that it would be such a big deal. It's vacant at night. You can ride multiple times and not even get out of your log because nobody else is waiting.

5. I'm not sure why the negativity for Fast Pass Plus. We really don't know exactly how that's going to work, but based on what we do know I see no reason for immediate concern. Let it play out and quit assuming the worst. I for one am excited to see what Next Gen has to offer and I think it's a smart investment. Disney Mobile Magic was a huge plus for our family and Disney made plenty of additional money from us because of it. We used to do one or two TS meals per trip because we didn't like being tied to a reservation 180 days out. Mobile Magic gave us an easy way to search last minute availability and as a result we ate TS for nearly every meal on our last couple of trips.

The interactive ques are great. Clearly those who have poo pooed those improvements have not had the pleasure of standing in line with two antsy toddlers. My kids love the new ques.

6. I get the fear about nickle and diming, but I don't feel that way at Disney yet. At Universal, yes, but for now Disney hasn't had me feeling that way. I still think the parties are worth the price and I would consider splurging for a dessert party if it was a special trip. I don't think DDP has ever been a great value. If some people would rather pay more for the assurance of a prepaid system more power to them. Park tickets are still a bargain and I 'll give you a great example. We're taking a weekend trip to Springfield, MO this weekend and I was browsing area attractions that the kids might enjoy. We'll be near Branson so Silver Dollar City came up on my search. A one day adult pass is $60 and Silver Dollar City is a far cry from WDW. I would much sooner pay $90 for a day at Disney.

7. The survey references do kind of bother me as in just tell us the truth don't dumb it down and make it seem like it's not a business decision when it clearly is. However, I wouldn't expect WDW to cater to guest opinion the way some do. The outfits at the American Pavilion, really? Is that a make or break issue for anyone's vacation? I'm fine with that change. People disagree. If you have a 100 people who think that change is horrendous you can also find 100 people who think it's great. Disney can't make decisions solely based on guest feedback.

All in all I'm pretty satisfied. We go at least once a year and always have a great time. We've never ever had a bad CM experience. In fact we've had a lot of really great ones where CM's went above and beyond for us. Maybe we've been lucky, but I tend to think it's more likely that a bad CM is a one off and certainly not the norm.

Maybe a factor or maybe not, I'm 32. I took a few trips as a kid which I remember fondly, but I wasn't old enough to really critique the experience. My DH's first trip was with me in 2000. We realized it was a vacation that we both really enjoyed and we've been taking regular trips ever since. My opinions are based solely on the last 12 years. Maybe I'm just not old enough to remember the magical golden age of WDW everyone else is so fond of?

[azcavalier]

7. The survey references do kind of bother me as in just tell us the truth don't dumb it down and make it seem like it's not a business decision when it clearly is. However, I wouldn't expect WDW to cater to guest opinion the way some do. The outfits at the American Pavilion, really? Is that a make or break issue for anyone's vacation? I'm fine with that change. People disagree. If you have a 100 people who think that change is horrendous you can also find 100 people who think it's great. Disney can't make decisions solely based on guest feedback.

What bothers me most about the surveys is that there is no real way to provide negative feedback, and if they're not interested in a guest's opinion, then what is the point of the survey? What are they, then, surveying the guests for? But the questions are manipulated so as not to be balanced, but are looking for various positive answers to whatever question they pose. It's kind of a joke, really.

[BrerGnat]

What bothers me most about the surveys is that there is no real way to provide negative feedback, and if they're not interested in a guest's opinion, then what is the point of the survey? What are they, then, surveying the guests for? But the questions are manipulated so as not to be balanced, but are looking for various positive answers to whatever question they pose. It's kind of a joke, really.

Not really. We have done a couple of surveys recently (both in person at the parks/downtown Disney as well as online). They are VERY interested in negative feedback and ask for very detailed explanations for any negative responses. I just did a survey about my stay at Art of Animation where I let them have it as far as the wi-fi was concerned. I did not hold back, and the survey actually seemed overly concerned with problems I may have experienced. We also did an in person survey at Epcot last year where we spent a good 30 min at a computer and let them know, in no uncertain terms, what we felt was wrong in the parks, what needed to go away, what needed to be updated, etc.

I don't really agree that all changes were "due to guest feedback" like they say, but who knows? Our Intercot community makes up approximately 0.06% of the number of people who visit just the Magic Kingdom yearly. What "we" think really isn't what "the majority" thinks, so those surveys may actually be leading some changes that we see as negative. Gotta keep that in perspective.

[Jared]

I just did a survey about my stay at Art of Animation where I let them have it as far as the wi-fi was concerned. I did not hold back, and the survey actually seemed overly concerned with problems I may have experienced.

Remember that Disney is in the process of spending $1billion for the Next Gen project, much of which involves upgrading this sort of infrastructure. Have you considered that somebody wanted you bash the Internet service at the resort? Somebody is looking to justify his proposal to spend a few million bucks on wireless improvements at that hotel.

[Gator]

1. I think the restaurant quality is fine. We've had lots of great meals at Disney and I haven't noticed a change in that over the years. Now, I do hate the dining plan and the free dining plan just about pushes me over the edge. We purposely avoid the typical free dining periods because restaurants are just so overcrowded. I think service does suffer in those times because they just can't operate at full capacity that long without some consequence. As much as I hate dining during those times I can only imagine how horrible it must be to work in food service during those times.

Well said. You're a hybrid. See, I love the DDP and I love it when it's free. And I haven't seen a decline in quality of food. Of course, some folks think that Disney used to offer gourmet - that has never been accurate.

But you don't like the DDP and still believe that the food quality is good - that the DDP isn't responsible for some terrible decline in food taste and variety. You are the opinion of the day, as far as I'm concerned.

[Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Da Disney]

"Ungrateful," really?! We literally pay thousands of dollars for ever diminishing quality and we are ungrateful?

Yeah Disney no matter what is a fun place and is great! And you are just lucky that you can go because I know some people who would love to go but can not because they dont have the financial needs. I think you are lucky to have the means to go to Disney.