x pass?

[seanyred]

This is the loophole.

Normally, person #1, 2, 3 and 4 would all get FP's (and therefore not be able to get any more FP's for a couple of hours).
In this case, however, person #1 ONLY gets a FP at the kiosk.
Then, they go to the CM and say "We need a Rider Switch Pass please" for the rest of the group - persons #3 & 4 are kids so the CM hands it over no questions asked.

Now, person #1 enters the FP lineup with his FP, and persons #2, 3 & 4 enter the FP lineup as well with their Rider Switch pass, under the guise that "Oh, our kids #3 & 4 decided to ride afterall"...
Or, perhaps, if they're not trying to "skirt" the system, maybe kids #3 and 4 actually did change their mind and decide to ride.

Regardless, that means, they've only "spent" one fast pass within their group, and now persons #2, 3 & 4 are able to go collect more fast passes immediately around the park without having to wait the standard amount of time to collect more.

Your scenario was exhausting to read and in real life it would be even more exhausting to pull off on a consistant basis to even bother with trying for this so-called loop-hole. The policy does say that rider swap is for families that have children too small to ride. So if kids 3&4 are tall enough then they should be denied the Rider Swap pass, thus negating the loop-hole.

Honestly, in the past 6 years of going to WDW I can never recall seeing anyone abuse the system in this way.

[dizneydeb22]

I'm a little confused!!??!! I believe I read a few times in this post that Disney has not released any information regarding the NextGen system. If that is the case, where are people getting this information from and why are so many people getting upset and trashing Disney over something that has not been confirmed.

Many people have actually said that they will not plan another vacation if this happens!! That only benefits the rest of us who truely LOVE Disney!! Disney makes some decisions that I don't agree with, but then again, I'm not responsible for such a large company and all the problems and blessings it involves!
I suggest all the naysayers and complainers get together, design and open your own theme park, and then get back to all us little people and tell us how easy it is!

OK, off my soapbox! I'll probably get slammed from some people, but like you I have an opinion also.

[wdwfansince75]

Good point, Debbie...we have gotten off on a tangent...and I thought the same as you did...Oh good, the new system will drive so many people away, the standby lines will shrink, and FP's will be walk on's!

Meanwhile, on the side track...family members have assured me that we all had FP's when we used the rider swap, and all turned them in before the first ride...and on the second ride, the non-rider from the first time was able to enter the FP line, using the rider swap, with up to 3 riders. DDiL #1 seems to recall not turning in her FP for the second ride...thinks she would up with an extra one, which she thinks I used later that day.

[MaxPower]

Disney made one crucial mistake.

Fastpass debuted in 1999. Think about the first time you ever heard about Fastpass. If you were like most, you thought the idea was FANTASTIC and you were shocked, but elated, that Disney would even attempt something like it. The idea was pure Disney - a way to increase your fun and eliminate your time in line. Once you found out it was FREE (even more shocking!), you were on board 100%.

It would never occur to you to try to bend any of the rules regarding how it worked. (Just as today you would not try to jump on a float during a parade to get a photo with Mickey because you know that's against the rules).

When you had your first Fastpass, you followed the rules regarding it. If it said your return time was between 2pm and 3pm, you assumed that 3:01PM would be too late -pure and simple.

And this is where Disney made their mistake - from Day One, they should have made a hard and fast rule about the return time - "I'm sorry sir, but the Fastpasses are a courtesy and it clearly states that you needed to return by 3PM-if we let you in at 3:01, then we'd have to let the woman behind you in at 3:02pm and the whole late return issue would snowball -so if you'd like to use Fastpass in the future, make sure you return during the window."

In that first year, there of course would be some disgruntled people who were one or two minutes late -BUT when turned away, they would learn quickly that there are no exceptions - plus they'd still think Fastpass is a GREAT thing because their bad experience was clearly their own fault. Do you think they would never try Fastpass again or badmouth it? Of course not - all they would say is "Make sure you return during your window!"

But because Disney enforced no rule about return time, the word spread and now many people think it's a right rather than a privilege to come back anytime after their window ( and Disney agrees, er, kinda sort of, maybe, but, shhh, don't say it out loud...)

Big Big Mistake regarding something people LOVE that is a courtesy. If you're getting something wonderful for free, then you have no right but to follow the rules regarding it no matter how strict. If you don't like it - then the standby line is right there waiting for you.

[MickeysBestPal]

When you had your first Fastpass, you followed the rules regarding it. If it said your return time was between 2pm and 3pm, you assumed that 3:01PM would be too late -pure and simple.

And this is where Disney made their mistake - from Day One, they should have made a hard and fast rule about the return time

Why does it matter?

[Mousemates]

In that first year, there of course would be some disgruntled people who were one or two minutes late -BUT when turned away, they would learn quickly that there are no exceptions - plus they'd still think Fastpass is a GREAT thing because their bad experience was clearly their own fault. Do you think they would never try Fastpass again or badmouth it? Of course not - all they would say is "Make sure you return during your window!"

(underlined by mousemates for emphasis)

I disagree...if the reason you were late for your fastpass to say Soarin was something along the lines of slow service for your meal at Chefs de France or a malfunction at a ride (think say test track), a person would not think it was their fault, but that it was Disney's fault. They would then be further irked, when Disney compounded things by sending them to stand in the "forever wait" line.

[MaxPower]

(underlined by mousemates for emphasis)

I disagree...if the reason you were late for your fastpass to say Soarin was something along the lines of slow service for your meal at Chefs de France or a malfunction at a ride (think say test track), a person would not think it was their fault, but that it was Disney's fault. They would then be further irked, when Disney compounded things by sending them to stand in the "forever wait" line.

No disrespect to Mousemates, but her post exemplifies my point exactly - people treat the Fastpass as a right rather than a privilege.

In Walt Disney World, as in life, STUFF HAPPENS.

If someone arrives late to see a parade because he was delayed on Space Mountain when it broke down, should he be compensated somehow? Afterall, he missed the parade because it was Disney's fault. Should they give him a free pass to come back another day? (Go to City Hall and try using this theory and see what you're told.)

How does one define "slow service" at a restaurant? To some, it would mean a 10 minute wait and to others it would mean a 45 minute wait. Should the guy who has to wait 10 minutes be given something for his trouble? There is no way to realitically police these things in Walt Disney World.

This stuff happens, and like anyone else, I think it's annoying. But these events are exceptions - and for people to expect Disney to compensate for exceptions is not realistic. They provide Fastpasses as a (very nice) courtesy - but people act as if they are paying for them and demand THEIR RIGHTS.

Maybe Disney should take away Fastpass all together and leave us all with only the "forever wait" line - the way it was for decades. If this happened, I bet there would be lawsuits.

[gratuspater]

Why does it matter?

If it doesn't matter to you why did you remove (or why was it removed) your original post?The one were you talked of being late for your fast pass return time, because it was your childs first trip to disney, and you wanted to see Mickey's Philhar Magic first. I find it very odd that only after that post is gone, that you claim to "rarely use fast pass and always try to be on time", especially with how critical you've been to anyone else with a different opinion on this subject.
Everyone else's opinions matter to them, just like your opinion matters to you.

[Ian]

If it doesn't matter to you why did you remove (or why was it removed) your original post?The one were you talked of being late for your fast pass return time, because it was your childs first trip to disney, and you wanted to see Mickey's Philhar Magic first.

I'm confused. Are you talking about a post in this thread or a separate thread altogether?

Because there have been no posts removed or deleted from this thread. You can tell because there's no little trash can icon next to the thread title on the main page.

[Buttercup]

Hmmm... something still doesn't seem right. But I'm going to need some time with a pencil and paper and photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one to figure this out. Don''t have the time now. I'll be back.

Here it is in a nutshell:
Because the Rider Switch pass is for ANY kids (or adults with special needs) that can't be left alone outside a ride to wait for the rest of their party, regardless of their height, some people are collecting Rider Switch Passes for their family and using them as free fast passes. They can show the CM that "Yep, we've got kids in our party" to get a Rider Swap pass, then 20 minutes later, they use the Rider Swap pass to let their kids ride the ride.
This way, they don't have to 'spend' a fast pass on their park ticket -- you know how you can only collect so many fast passes every few hours? Well this alleviates that.

[MickeysBestPal]

If it doesn't matter to you why did you remove (or why was it removed) your original post?The one were you talked of being late for your fast pass return time, because it was your childs first trip to disney, and you wanted to see Mickey's Philhar Magic first. I find it very odd that only after that post is gone, that you claim to "rarely use fast pass and always try to be on time", especially with how critical you've been to anyone else with a different opinion on this subject.
Everyone else's opinions matter to them, just like your opinion matters to you.

You are very confused.

I wrote no (nor removed) posts about my child or Philharmagic.

And... you are the one who is upset about Disney's own policy.

I'm just attempting to explain why it doesn't matter when a FP is used.

Again, why does it matter to you when someone else chooses to use a FP?

[MaxPower]

Again, why does it matter to you when someone else chooses to use a FP?

It's simple.

When people "choose" to return when they want rather than during the window printed on their Fastpass ticket -it can cause LONG Fastpass lines, which defeats the whole point of Fastpass in the first place.

This often happens at Soarin' & Rock N Roller Coaster. Their Fastpass lines will be a 30 or 40 minute wait because a lot of people are coming back later in the day rather than returning during their window.

When a lot of people do this, the Fastpass lines grow and grow making for long waits.

If everyone followed what's printed on their tickets, the Fastpass line all day long would never be more than 10 minutes.

Would you rather wait 0-10 minutes or 30-40 minutes? I'd rather wait less. That's why I use Fastpass.

And that's why it matters.

[BrerGnat]

It's simple.

When people "choose" to return when they want rather than during the window printed on their Fastpass ticket -it can cause LONG Fastpass lines, which defeats the whole point of Fastpass in the first place.

This often happens at Soarin' & Rock N Roller Coaster. Their Fastpass lines will be a 30 or 40 minute wait because a lot of people are coming back later in the day rather than returning during their window.

It's not that simple, though.

Often, when you see long fastpass lines, it's either due to a LARGE group returning at the same time (I'm talking 50 people groups here) or it's due to the simple fact that certain rides are not optimized for FP usage, like Soarin and Toy Story Midway Mania.

The thing is, even if everyone who had a FP didn't return in the window, they would still return in a sporadic, well spaced manner. You are talking about a park being open 8-12+ hours. Everyone isn't going to come back at the same time, outside of the windows.

The thing is, as much as one tries to argue it, returning later than the window has NO measurable impact on the FP line. The line ebbs and flows all day, and all it "promises" is a faster wait than the standby line, which it always delivers on. There is no promise that FP means you'll board in 5, 10, 15, or even 30 minutes. It just means that you'll get on faster than the people in the standby line.

[W24toISMdirect]

It would never occur to you to try to bend any of the rules regarding how it worked.

The rule regarding how it works, as defined by Disney, who issues the Fastpass is that you can return at any point after the start time. I didn't make this rule they did.

it said your return time was between 2pm and 3pm, you assumed that 3:01PM would be too late -pure and simple.

And you assumption would be wrong.

Here's the thing... noone complaining about this is looking at it critically. For one thing, your assuming that noone really cares about riding Splash Mountain, and they're only getting a Fast Pass so they can deliberately drag there feet about riding as such everyone who got a Fast Pass in a given day is going to show up exactly 15 minutes before the park closes which is literally the only way that it's mathematically possible to have any significant back up of the Fast Pass line.

Here's what happens the Real World:

Three people get fast passes with a 1:00 to 2:00 return:

Person A returns at 1:00
Person B returns at 1:30
Person C returns at 5:00

And this affects nothing... because of the people who had 5:00 to 6:00 returns:

Person A returns at 5:00
Person B returns at 5:30
Person C returns at 9:00

And yes I'm aware that the FastPass line a RnRC is always 20 to 30 minutes, but logic dictates that if it's ALWAYS 20 to 30 minutes, then it's not because of un-even FP return distribution, it's because there are in general more Fast Passes given that the ride can support in an hour.

And let me just say how SICK TO DEATH I am about people on this board declaring that the times printed on a ticket matter by virtue of being times printed on a ticket, when the company that printed the ticket, never declared such a rule. I find it personally discusting how pre-occupied people are with the idea that someone else might be getting something that could by some logic somehow maybe be perceived as unfair. It's like your just looking for some reason to be outraged... even on a Disney World message board.

[Scar]

My apologies for staying off topic.

This is the loophole.

Normally, person #1, 2, 3 and 4 would all get FP's (and therefore not be able to get any more FP's for a couple of hours).
In this case, however, person #1 ONLY gets a FP at the kiosk.
Then, they go to the CM and say "We need a Rider Switch Pass please" for the rest of the group - persons #3 & 4 are kids so the CM hands it over no questions asked.

Now, person #1 enters the FP lineup with his FP, and persons #2, 3 & 4 enter the FP lineup as well with their Rider Switch pass, under the guise that "Oh, our kids #3 & 4 decided to ride afterall"...
Or, perhaps, if they're not trying to "skirt" the system, maybe kids #3 and 4 actually did change their mind and decide to ride.

Regardless, that means, they've only "spent" one fast pass within their group, and now persons #2, 3 & 4 are able to go collect more fast passes immediately around the park without having to wait the standard amount of time to collect more.

But you're not taking into account that the first time through, they would have to wait in standby, and that two people in the party would not be allowed to ride that first time. Why shoud Disney care which 3 people use the pass the second ride?

[wdwfansince75]

As long as we are off topic...
We have always had fast passes when asking for the rider swap...We have never used the standby line. On the first ride...all riders enter using the fast pass line....all riders turn in their FP's...On the second ride, the non-rider from the first ride turns in the swap pass...and their FP...the other riders accompany the swap pass holder...in the FP line. We have always been asked for FP's on the first ride, so we have never had to concern ourselves with the supposed loophole....on at least one occasion, the FP was not turned in on the second ride...and was used outside the window...by me.

Now, back on topic.....
My view: When Disney first started FP's, they may well have thought that everyone would return within the window...but didn't enforce it...and found that the system works relatively smoothly...perhaps they fine tuned it, and release more FP's earlier in the day, knowing that some will use the FP as early as possible, or at least within the window, some will use it later, and some will not use them at all...I usually wind up not using several on every trip...I sometimes give them away, but sometimes, realizing that some of us Out of Window guests may be causing longer FP lines, and not using it will save everyone in the queue at least one space.
While I do recall some attractions having relatively short FP lines, I do not sense that the FP lines are getting longer than in the past. In my view, the system works...sometimes, "Better" is the enemy of "Good Enough".

In general....I see no reason to fix a system that isn't broken....

[MickeysBestPal]

When people "choose" to return when they want rather than during the window printed on their Fastpass ticket -it can cause LONG Fastpass lines, which defeats the whole point of Fastpass in the first place.

Very unlikely.

That's why I asked why you were worried about guests choosing to use their FP "after-the-window."

There's no way to know how many guests that you see a FP line are using "in-window" FP's or "after-window" FP's.

There would only be a lot of "assuming" going on.

[Terra]

I need a bucket of popcorn and a watching this thread! It's like watching 2 great debate teams!

Seriously though, lots of passion on all sides and I do see all points. What it boils down to for me personally is that I choose to stay within the time framework to be respectful to other visitors who also have FP. I wouldn't show up early or late for dining reservations and expect to get served before those who were ahead of me, so it's no different with this [for me personally again! My own opinion ]

[MickeysBestPal]

I need a bucket of popcorn and a watching this thread! It's like watching 2 great debate teams!

Seriously though, lots of passion on all sides and I do see all points. What it boils down to for me personally is that I choose to stay within the time framework to be respectful to other visitors who also have FP. I wouldn't show up early or late for dining reservations and expect to get served before those who were ahead of me, so it's no different with this [for me personally again! My own opinion ]

And, that's really very fine. You are not hurting anyone when you use your FP within-the-window.

But don't misinterpret opinion versus the facts of how these things actually work.

(I'm trying to state these things precisely so that they are very clear.)

Every time you use your FP, YOU are "stepping in front of other guests."
In-the-window, or after-the-window, you are making others wait for you because you showed up at the FP line, ready to ride.

The reason is that you actually arrived at the attraction BEFORE those other guests.

Let's look at an attraction like Pirates of the Caribbean that does not even offer FP.

Are you being rude to those other guests who entered the line after you did because you are standing in line ahead of them?

Not everyone will arrive at the park (or at a particular attraction) at the same time.

If other guests chose to sleep in, or eat breakfast, or ride Dumbo before arriving at PotC, then they made the choice to ride behind you, because you walked to PotC earlier than they.

The same goes for FP.

If you got a FP earlier than other guests, you can use it DURING the Window, and push those in the standby line aside for you to ride before them.

OR-
If you got a FP earlier than other guests, you can use it AFTER the Window, and allow those guests whom you would have pushed out of the way had you arrived earlier, to go ahead and ride BEFORE you.

When you do finally arrive at the FP line, you are simply "pushing aside" those guests who happen to be in the standby line at that point.
But (OTOH,) you have also let hundreds of other guests actually ride AHEAD of you, already.

And, one more time, I'm not preaching that anyone "NEEDS" to use their FP after-the-window.
It's just that it really doesn't matter too much to anyone else WHEN you choose to finally use your FP that day.

Disney makes the rules and they have determined that it just doesn't hurt anybody
whenever you decide to use a same-day FP.

[Terra]

And, that's really very fine. You are not hurting anyone when you use your FP within-the-window.

But don't misinterpret opinion versus the facts of how these things actually work.

(I'm trying to state these things precisely so that they are very clear.)

Every time you use your FP, YOU are "stepping in front of other guests."
In-the-window, or after-the-window, you are making others wait for you because you showed up at the FP line, ready to ride.

The reason is that you actually arrived at the attraction BEFORE those other guests.

Let's look at an attraction like Pirates of the Caribbean that does not even offer FP.

Are you being rude to those other guests who entered the line after you did because you are standing in line ahead of them?

Not everyone will arrive at the park (or at a particular attraction) at the same time.

If other guests chose to sleep in, or eat breakfast, or ride Dumbo before arriving at PotC, then they made the choice to ride behind you, because you walked to PotC earlier than they.

The same goes for FP.

If you got a FP earlier than other guests, you can use it DURING the Window, and push those in the standby line aside for you to ride before them.

OR-
If you got a FP earlier than other guests, you can use it AFTER the Window, and allow those guests whom you would have pushed out of the way had you arrived earlier, to go ahead and ride BEFORE you.

When you do finally arrive at the FP line, you are simply "pushing aside" those guests who happen to be in the standby line at that point.
But (OTOH,) you have also let hundreds of other guests actually ride AHEAD of you, already.

And, one more time, I'm not preaching that anyone "NEEDS" to use their FP after-the-window.
It's just that it really doesn't matter too much to anyone else WHEN you choose to finally use your FP that day.

Disney makes the rules and they have determined that it just doesn't hurt anybody
whenever you decide to use a same-day FP.

Totally cool, I understand your points. They're your opinion just as my view is mine. You choose to view it one way, I view it another

I will continue to show up within the hour time frame because for me that is plenty of time and allows for much flexibility. If others can't or don't want to do that, they are free too since Disney is not enforcing anything but early arrivals. Problem solved