2011 points charts - They did it again

[Donald A]

Looking through the new vacation planner and the 2011 point booklet I noticed that once again they are increasing the weekday points while decreasing weekend points. Compared to the 2009 points charts this really effects the way I vacation. I like to take the 5 night Sunday through Thursday vacation because of the lower point values and the fact that I drive down after I complete my work week on Friday. I am not going to complain any more but must admit I am unhappy. This is not how the club was presented to me. I guess it just means less trips down to Disney in the future.

[DizneyRox]

It's pretty interesting that the DVC points seems to be leveling out, but the cash rooms everywhere else on property seem to be doing the opposite.

Almost makes it seem that they are gouging customers that are paying cash for rooms (weekends cost more, etc).

But that can't be!

[Donald A]

I said the same thing last year. They are not doing it due to "member feedback," they are doing it for financial reasons.

[DizneyRox]

I somewhat agree... I do think that in some twisted way this does benefit DVC members. By having things on a point system and not a week system, Disney put themselves in a bit of a predicament. With people trying to optimize their points and length of stay, I've got to imagine that there were a lot of DVC rooms "empty" on weekends and members possibly complaining that they can't get in to use their points.

I know with my upcoming trip certain days through the weeks were unavailable, just like one or two days and they WERE NOT consecutive.

So, this point reallocation does help stem that, so I sortof agree with it, HOWEVER when the cash cost of rooms is all over the place, higher on weekends and you need THREE reservation numbers of a 5 night stay, I have to beleieve they are just gouging customers that actually pay for rooms (not necessarily DVC rooms) which is unfortunate. That is just a money grab... Disney has always looked for ways to milk customers instead of luring people to come.

[DVC Mike]

I'm happy with both point reallocations, as I typically spend 5 week nights and 3 weekend nights, so the total points I need per trip has gone down both times.

[1DisneyNut]

I would not be surprised if this was the plan all along. Sell a lot of DVC memberships over a time span of five years representing a weekday 5 day vacation requiring "this" many points and then start shifting the point structure around so many of the members would decide to add on to their points. We actually almost bought two years ago but I did a lot of research after we got back from our trip and decided to hold off and see how things played out since they were selling so many at the time. I have been seeing a lot of negativity from recent DVC purchasers over the point structure and difficulty in getting reservations when desired. On top of all of that they keep reducing the perks that DVC members get. We are no longer even considering DVC.

[DizneyRox]

I thionk much of the complaints are due to people not spending a lot of time figuring out how many points they really need. I'd be surprised if the majority of folks don't get caught up in the "magic" and just sign away on the dotted line for a minumum point contract.

For me, a minumum point contract didn't get me much. It would have been barely a week at the minimum accomodations for the weeks we normally vacation.

We got for two weeks usually and knew that we would at some point need more than a studio. We spent hours running the numbers... If this year we do this, we'll have this many point left over so we can do this, and that. When we get older, we'll be able to do this, or if we wanted to do this, how many points would we need and could we do that with three years worth of points, etc.

Ultimately settled on an odd number of points and it hasn't let us down, not once. These point reallocations actually help us for the most part.

But I do see both sides of the story... I find it hard though to feel sorry for anyone. Shame on Disney for using the "magic" to persuade people in what is, it he end, a real estate contract. And shame on people for entering into a real estate contract without all the facts.

[Jeffybob]

I have nothing but good things to say about my DVC membership.

Agreeing with DVC Mike as I too have seen my point costs go down each time these changes have occured since we tend use the membership for long weekends.

Also agreeing with DisneyRox that people get swept up in the thought of ownership without considering all the variables.

[Hammer]

I agree with DisneyRox, DVC Mike and Jeffy bob in principle, I only agree with them to a point. Yes, you should not rush into a DVC purchase. However, there are some DVC sales people who are not very forthcoming or just downright lie to make a sale. When I was looking to buy through Disney, I specifically asked if 150 points would always be enough for how I vacation at WDW, 5 nights in a 1BDR, usually Sun-Thursday to combine with a visit to my parents and 1 night in a 2BDR the week before Christmas. My sales guy told me yes, no disclaimers. I decided to buy through resale but the resale salesperson never said anything different. Now it is getting harder and harder for us to keep vacationing like that. I do think next year our 5 night trip may end up becoming a 4 night trip.

While what the sales person told us wasn't wrong, I think it was a bit sleazy to give only some of the information.

[Donald A]

I agree with DisneyRox, DVC Mike and Jeffy bob in principle, I only agree with them to a point. Yes, you should not rush into a DVC purchase. However, there are some DVC sales people who are not very forthcoming or just downright lie to make a sale. When I was looking to buy through Disney, I specifically asked if 150 points would always be enough for how I vacation at WDW, 5 nights in a 1BDR, usually Sun-Thursday to combine with a visit to my parents and 1 night in a 2BDR the week before Christmas. My sales guy told me yes, no disclaimers. I decided to buy through resale but the resale salesperson never said anything different. Now it is getting harder and harder for us to keep vacationing like that. I do think next year our 5 night trip may end up becoming a 4 night trip.

While what the sales person told us wasn't wrong, I think it was a bit sleazy to give only some of the information.

I am not going to rehash the discussion from last year. All-in-all I think my DVC membership will pay off, but I feel at best misled and at worst lied to about the point totals. I specifically asked my guide "So you are telling me that a studio at SSR in the cheapest time of year will always be 11 points?" I was told that yes, it can not change and was told that is what is the beauty of the club. I recently read the contract and see how what they did is within the rules but sorta hidden.

However, I do not believe that they did it to help me. They did it so members would buy more points after looking at how people like me (and you Hammer) vacation. I will not buy more points and in fact I inquired about selling my membership. I will just go less often now or pay cash for a couple nights like at the Grand Floridian before I "buy more points."

I want to clear up something though regarding knowing what I was getting into. To say that I just signed on the dotted line may be right, but to blame me for being unhappy about these changes is absurd. Those 150 points for $12500 is the most I could afford and will still be a good deal in the long run. I just think I was misled about the process and 4 years later realize now that I am going to have to be careful in the future.

[Donald A]

I would not be surprised if this was the plan all along. Sell a lot of DVC memberships over a time span of five years representing a weekday 5 day vacation requiring "this" many points and then start shifting the point structure around so many of the members would decide to add on to their points.

You said it better than what I just said in the previous post.

[MarkC]

Do remember that they are not changing the points in total-- just moving them around. I'm guessing they are trying to even out room availability. What they take here they have to give there, so it will even out.

[DizneyRox]

Correct, but, people have apparently been lied to by DVC guides. If Donald was told that SSR would always be 11 points for X day, that is an outright lie. I'm not sure what part of the contract would elude to that and make it seem OK to answer yes to that.

We asked a similar question, and were told no, but they haven't made any point adjustments that he remembers. Or something to that effect. It was so long ago I don't recall that exact words.

We didn't take these adjustments into account in our determination of points, but we do have extras to play with. We knew we would need them.

With Disney, you really need to know the questions to ask, and need to ask in a way that gets an answer that doesn't need to be interpreted.

[Ian]

I'm sort of hesitant to comment on this for a couple reasons ...

#1, overall I'm very happy with our DVC ownership.

#2, I've publicly stated the name of our guide and I love the guy and would hate for people to get the wrong idea about him.

#3, I'm mostly okay with the point reallocations and don't have a major issue with the way it changes the cost in points for our vacations. In fact, since we typically used to stay weekends, but book a cash room somewhere to avoid the excessive weekend point costs it actually probably helps us out.

But I do have to say that, while I can't claim to be 100% certain about it, I'm near-certain that we were told pretty clearly that point costs cannot change. I pretty vividly remember our guide saying something to the effect of, "And the beauty of DVC is that a weeknight in a studio at Saratoga Springs during value season will always cost you 11 points."

Basically he said that the only thing that will change year-to-year is the specific dates for each season (due to shifting holidays, etc.). But the points were fixed and would not change.

So look ... were we intentionally mislead or do even some DVC guides not fully understand how the program works? Based on my impression of our guide and what I think of him personally, I think it's probably the latter. Not to mention that Disney is pretty well-known to have horrible internal communications.

[Donald A]

I remember being told pretty much the same thing as Ian.

I am all-in-all still thinking it is a pretty good deal. I am taking a trip in November on basically a years points and it is worth $3500 if I paid cash for that room (AKL villas) for 5 nights.

I think I sorta agree with Ian about being mostly happy with the membership and its value. However, I am unhappy with the point changes to the point that I will probably not add on more points.

[DVC Mike]

So look ... were we intentionally mislead or do even some DVC guides not fully understand how the program works? Based on my impression of our guide and what I think of him personally, I think it's probably the latter. Not to mention that Disney is pretty well-known to have horrible internal communications.

I tend to think it is the latter as well. Many sales guides never read the POS and were unaware of the points re-allocation rule.

[Hammer]

#1, overall I'm very happy with our DVC ownership.

#2, I've publicly stated the name of our guide and I love the guy and would hate for people to get the wrong idea about him.

#3, I'm mostly okay with the point reallocations and don't have a major issue with the way it changes the cost in points for our vacations. In fact, since we typically used to stay weekends, but book a cash room somewhere to avoid the excessive weekend point costs it actually probably helps us out.

But I do have to say that, while I can't claim to be 100% certain about it, I'm near-certain that we were told pretty clearly that point costs cannot change. I pretty vividly remember our guide saying something to the effect of, "And the beauty of DVC is that a weeknight in a studio at Saratoga Springs during value season will always cost you 11 points."

Basically he said that the only thing that will change year-to-year is the specific dates for each season (due to shifting holidays, etc.). But the points were fixed and would not change.

So look ... were we intentionally mislead or do even some DVC guides not fully understand how the program works? Based on my impression of our guide and what I think of him personally, I think it's probably the latter. Not to mention that Disney is pretty well-known to have horrible internal communications.

I agree with Ian and I am basically happy with my membership. If I could switch around how I visit or take longer than a week's vacation, this would not be a problem.

I thionk much of the complaints are due to people not spending a lot of time figuring out how many points they really need. I'd be surprised if the majority of folks don't get caught up in the "magic" and just sign away on the dotted line for a minumum point contract.

For me, a minumum point contract didn't get me much. It would have been barely a week at the minimum accomodations for the weeks we normally vacation.

We got for two weeks usually and knew that we would at some point need more than a studio. We spent hours running the numbers... If this year we do this, we'll have this many point left over so we can do this, and that. When we get older, we'll be able to do this, or if we wanted to do this, how many points would we need and could we do that with three years worth of points, etc.

But I do see both sides of the story... I find it hard though to feel sorry for anyone. Shame on Disney for using the "magic" to persuade people in what is, it he end, a real estate contract. And shame on people for entering into a real estate contract without all the facts.

Also agreeing with DisneyRox that people get swept up in the thought of ownership without considering all the variables.

I have to say these comments bother me. If you ask anyone who knows me, they'll tell you I'm not naive. I resent being labeled as being stupid. I received bad info from 2 separate sources as well as from current DVC owners.

I tend to think it is the latter as well. Many sales guides never read the POS and were unaware of the points re-allocation rule.

Disney needs to fix that. That should not be acceptable to anyone.

[Ian]

I received bad info from 2 separate sources as well as from current DVC owners.

Which probably reflects the fact that the DVC owners you asked didn't understand how it worked either.

I suspect this may be a case where Disney had this ability in the contracts, but didn't want to highlight it to anyone. They also may not have anticipated needing to use it, so they figured no harm/no foul. Either that or previous DVC leadership had no intention of using it, but new leadership decided to get crafty with it or something.

But bottom line, I think it's safe to say since very few owners seemed to understand that this was a possibility that it was intentionally downplayed to some degree.

[Aurora]

Which probably reflects the fact that the DVC owners you asked didn't understand how it worked either.

I suspect this may be a case where Disney had this ability in the contracts, but didn't want to highlight it to anyone. They also may not have anticipated needing to use it, so they figured no harm/no foul. Either that or previous DVC leadership had no intention of using it, but new leadership decided to get crafty with it or something.

But bottom line, I think it's safe to say since very few owners seemed to understand that this was a possibility that it was intentionally downplayed to some degree.

I don't know that few owners understood this -- the boards are a very unscientific sampling of owners, and this issue tends to draw complaints because that's what the topic is about. The only way to really find out is to do a scientific poll.

I'm not at all doubting those who said their guides told them the points could never change. I totally believe that's what they were told. I do know that our guide explained to us clearly about the point system, and that within the system itself, the points could never change, but that the points for a particular week could change. He told us that if they did, the changes would probably be minor, because they had to balance out throughout the year.

This to us was reason to make sure we had enough points to do what we wanted, because even if the points for the week never changed, maybe our vacation desires would.

[DizneyRox]

Absolutly, they can only sell as many points as they have availability. I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but without adding or deleting rooms, they can't just make up more points.

So, the number of points for the resort needs to stay, but how they are allocated for different accomodations to keep them filled makes sense.

And you are 100% right about careful planning. We started in a studio, but knew that a 1BR was going to be necessary at times. I've always told people to buy up their accomodations as you can't exepct the accomodations that you want to always be available.

For example, on paper, 63 points will get you a value studio at AKLV in January. But there are only so many value studios. You might need to spend 70 points for the week or even 91 for a Savannah View. Even those should be taken into account hen determining your point needs. That's an almost 30 point swing just for a studio.