Lights of Winter - Cancelled This Year?!?

[Hammer]

Regarding the Lights of Winter removal, they were never a priority for me to go see (much like the DVC people who were not really affected by removing valet parking as they did not really use it). What bothers me more is it continues a bad precedent in taking something away and either not replacing it or replacing with a cheaper, lower quality product.

[Maleficent's Dad]

What bothers me more is it continues a bad precedent in taking something away and either not replacing it or replacing with a cheaper, lower quality product.

Well stated, Christine. I guess this is what it all comes down to. How many more "cuts" will the consumers allow before Disney starts to see the effect?

[lockedoutlogic]

Well stated, Christine. I guess this is what it all comes down to. How many more "cuts" will the consumers allow before Disney starts to see the effect?

I think we've all come to the realization on this one:

The customers will allow hundreds...if not more cuts before they even give it a second thought....

The repeat customer base of WDW is really stupid about this....and that's about the only way to "diplomatically
say it

[squijee]

The Lights of Winter is one of the reasons we go at Christmas. I will voice my opinion of their demise loud and clear. It seems to me that they cut more and more then we may as well just go to Six Flags and be done with it.

[Strmchsr]

The repeat customer base of WDW is really stupid about this....and that's about the only way to "diplomatically say it

You know, you aren't the only smart person on the planet and people who enjoy WDW are not stupid. Just because some folks don't want to complain about everything Disney does is not reason to question their intelligence. While I don't like, or agree with, many of the choices Disney World has made lately I don't slam those who still enjoy the experience, so chill out.

[DizNee143]

it stinks they are getting rid of it..
just another thing most of us look forward to that will be missing..
hopefully they will bring it back one day!

[Seasonscraps]

This has been a pattern for the past couple of years. They lucked out with a failing economy so they have an excuse to eliminate all these little things that enhance a vacation but doesn't necessarily make or break it. And while you can't place a dollar value on a lot of them, they are all part of the MAGIC Disney sells which is why they are able to get away with the rates/prices they charge for certain things. If they keep eliminating these things at some point, the consumer is going to say enough. They are going to find another place to vacation that is just as enjoyable (in a different way) that has more value. Maybe that's when Disney will remember what drew people there in the first place.

[lockedoutlogic]

You know, you aren't the only smart person on the planet and people who enjoy WDW are not stupid. Just because some folks don't want to complain about everything Disney does is not reason to question their intelligence. While I don't like, or agree with, many of the choices Disney World has made lately I don't slam those who still enjoy the experience, so chill out.

You're right...I phrased that wrong...

the WDW repeat customer base is naive ABOUT THIS TYPE OF CUT/ REDUCTION...

it was poorly worded...but it's the truth. There is no pressure on the management in orlando (or their masters in Anaheim) to stop doing these types of little cuts because they have been tolerated for years...

Sure they add things...but the gaps between major additions has steadily become longer and longer...and the frequency of these types of "reductions" has grown more steadily...

"The blessing of size" as Walt Disney termed it in Florida.....has become something different: they just use the sheer size of the complex to hide reductions...which they have now done twice in a 9 year period for an extended stretch...

you know?

as far as slamming those who "just want to experience it"...you are giving me credit for too much venom.

I have a great time in WDW...most people i know do...but we are part of the problem: we go 4 times a year and don't even really pay attention to what is or isn't there...as do most in the over-populated, over-traveled., over-indulged state i live in (JOISEY!!!!)...

but i have no illusions: someday these types of things are going to change the overall fundamentals of how he parks feel...and as most examples in history tell us...once something is lost, it will never be the same - no matter how you try to fix it.

So that's where i'm coming from...

[Strmchsr]

You're right...I phrased that wrong...

the WDW repeat customer base is naive ABOUT THIS TYPE OF CUT/ REDUCTION...it was poorly worded...but it's the truth.

as far as slamming those who "just want to experience it"...you are giving me credit for too much venom.

Much more properly phrased and thanks for the clarification. As my momma used to say, "It ain't what you said, but the way you said it." So, I appreciate (and mostly agree with) the spirit of what you're saying. As an Intercot moderator I also have to make sure that no one feels like they are being ridiculed because of their love for Disney seeing as how that's why we're all here. Not opposed to constructive criticism of Disney just want to make sure we keep the Intercot environment friendly for all.

[Figment78]

My theories (just that):

First, the cost and expense of the castle overlay has been deemed acceptible because their cost analysis tells them that they sell alot more junk because of it....so it is warranted. The christmas party alone probably more than justifies that cost....

The osborne lights are a pure operational necessity. They can't have everyone mobbing EPCOT and MK during the peak season so they almost have to give a reason to hang out at the Studios....cause on it's own - there's nothing in that park that will draw the christmas crowd away from the big sisters

again....just theories

Why are you even on a disney fan board anyhow? Your posts just seem to be about how much you hate things there now. I'm sorry that you can't seem to accept that changes have to be made to save money sometimes or for the sake of changing 'the show.' If you no longer like WDW, then please, by all means just leave us fans alone. Epcot and WDW is beautiful without any holiday decorations at all. While I may or may not agree with you about a needed change in curernt leadership philosophy / style / etc, I can't help but feel that you are just so bitter about WDW that it's extremely puzzling to me why you are on here at all. To say that there is nothing at the Studios is just foolish, narrow-minded and inflamatory. This is my family's favorite park easily. We love to spend time there. It has some fantastic attractions and plenty to draw people to it.

[Wadeace]

I want to apologize for the lateness of this post; I got slammed with the past couple of months of school, and unplugged over break.
I also want to apologize in advanced for the length of this post and some of the technical jargon inside it.

I always find it interesting how people comment on things when they don’t grasp the scale and background of what they are commenting on. I’m not trying to offend anyone, I'm just saying before you cry about a problem think about what is going on in the background and not just conspiracy.

As a student who is studying entertainment technology, I can say that technology is ever changing as such the companies that provide the technology are constantly discontinuing the parts to service the discontinued products.

We have seen it before, a company goes out of business that supplied Disney with parts or a technology integral for an effect or experience, they buy all the parts they can to hobble a show along and then they run out of that part, what are they to do.

Their choices are to either spend millions of dollars to revamp a single aspect of a show experience ant to get it to properly interact with the rest of the older, and quite possibly outdated show control system, or to spend the same amount of money to do a total refurbish of a total show environment and make the show more appealing to a larger younger more sophisticated audience.

People got very upset to see Mr. toads wild ride turned into poohs adventure.
But the ride technology was aging and was turned into a more interesting experience with the bouncing cars.

Also we have seen when a ride elements is very technically advanced and the elements involved require a lot of support, and when a companies who provides that support goes under who is Disney to turn to for service and supply. As was the case with the yeti.

Disney has to update itself if it wants to stay relevant. At other parks ride systems are constantly being updated, while they may not be to the Disney themeing standards, they are technically advanced experiences. These other companies are able to change out rides without anyone complaining, the simply move on because the old one got to a point where it became old. While we might not consider them in competition with Disney, they are because rather than traveling to Florida, they can stay in there home state and have a very exciting time, so Disney has to constantly change and update things to keep the attention of an audience base that is growing more sophisticated every year.

Disney fans are a very interesting bunch, we expect to see Disney provide us with newer more exciting experiences, yet don’t want to sacrifice an older ride experience the will be replaced with the newer one, because we don’t give up that “history”. Disney has tried to balance that history, and updated technology line, and even than people complained that it was messing with the integrity of the ride. The ride I'm talking about is the pirates of the Caribbean.

I’m not saying that Disney hasn’t cut back, I thing what gets cut back changes with each administration. Under Iger, I have seen production standards decrease. During FAWF I could point out power cables and other technical aspects that would have been hidden in the past, just lying there in plain sight. Special event tech and tech for layovers have become sloppy. We have also seen decrees in maintenance and safety procedures in the transportation system, which resulted in a catastrophic accident, and those issues are being addressed.
However under Iger we have also seen the development and expansion of new and amazing technologies that allow for more dynamic audience participation experiences.

Back to the lights of winter

Disney has been on a kick of updating all of their Christmas lights to leds. This actually uses less energy and takes less time to set up.

Quick example.
The lights for the tree in the middle of the lobby of the grand Floridian, when it was all incandescent, they had to erect a short wall that cut the lobby in half the run the large feeder cable to the tree. Now that the tree is 100% leds, it takes a comparatively smaller extension cord that can be easily covers so that guests can wall over it, this also means they can remove the wall and not use the man hours to actually install the whole system. Because lets face it is easier to run a small three phase twist lock, than 5 conductors of cam lock three phase when one conductor for the cam lock weights twice as much as one twist lock.

Also Disney dose not produce all of its own power, RCID has one diesel power station that provides about half the required power for the magic kingdom alone.

You also have to understand that when a lot the older shows were put in place Disney had to go out on a limb and guess as to what technology would become the standard, because a standard didn’t exist at the time. It would be like trying to build a system with high definition DVD playback and having to decide if you choose blur-ray or hddvd as the media, when you didn’t know which would become the slandered and as such would be around longer.

You also have to understand that theme park productions is not responsible for upkeep of holiday overlays. The upkeep and design is the responsibility of Christmas services. So while a theme park productions employee might have caught the problem with the system, and tried to relay a message to a relevant person at Christmas services, because the Disney corporation is the size of a small country, the beurocracy between the departments is like trying to coordinate between different levels of government, as such they have lost the agility they once had.

From what I have been able to gather the show was debuted late 50s early 60s, and was a product from a companies in Italy.
The lamps and half of the control system was American, the Italian components were probably the central controller that sent the on off signal to the lights was Italian and the white arch structures were designed and fabricated in Italy. The Italians might have even wired the structures to American standards, however, our power system and there power system are not compatible, which is why I say that the dimmers for the lamps and the lamps themselves were American, and probably made special to interact with the Italian control system. Depending on who manufactured the dimmers id venture to guess that that company got bought out, and the people who run it now wouldn’t know where to look for the spec sheets for them let alone finding the proper components, and than would become more costly because you are asking for a total custom job, not just modifying something that is coming off the production line.

At the moment I cant think of any lighting control system manufacture that is based out of Italy, so as such whom will they turn to if something goes wrong with the control system. So you are looking at having to do a total replacement of that. Which also means having to replace the dimmers, and update the wiring and the lamps and every other aspect because they would want to choose a control system that is standard thought the park.

You have to understand the when Disney dose a revamp of a show they are also revamping the technology behind it, so the castle as stayed pretty up to date technology wise, also the Osborne show didn’t hit the parks until after standards for lighting control had taken affect on the market.

So what do I think happened?
Some aspect of the control system failed and a replacement is nowhere to be had. When they went to start testing the system they discovered the failure, and after looking into it realized that it was to late to do a rework of the system. So they decided to shelf it for this year, and they might have started a rework of the system that we will see installed next year for the holidays. This also will make way for a newer iteration of the show that will feature some new technology.

When Disney decides to cut a show or experience, they will typically announce that it will be leaving to get one last milk out of the we have to see it before it leaves crowed. The way this was handled appears to me that something broke that couldn’t be fixed in time. For Disney to quietly announce it wont be shown so late in the game, than to very quietly say that it was a technical failure makes me think that it was just that. Disney is a company that doesn’t like to announce that they cant do anything, and typically when something goes wrong, they will give you a bland bear with us sort of announcement.
I also agree with statements that putting up and running this show probably did cost the company a lot less than the other holiday experiences at the park. And so for people to say that it was a cut back because of money is a little ridicules.

[Patricia]

Thanks for the insight.

Even though my head hurts.

[DisneyCrazy]

From what I have been able to gather the show was debuted late 50s early 60s, and was a product from a companies in Italy.

This can't be accurate. Epcot Center did not open until 1982 and the Lights of Winter didn't make an appearance until the late '80's or early 90's.

[Wadeace]

This can't be accurate. Epcot Center did not open until 1982 and the Lights of Winter didn't make an appearance until the late '80's or early 90's.

sorry, i should have double checks that, i was on a rant, and never double checked my dates. however, if it was debuted any time before the the 90s than a lot of what i said would still apply since DMX the standard control system wasn't a standard until 86.

[dtootsie42]

I mean't to do some posting in December when we got back from our trip but life got in the way. I just wanted to make a comment about Epcot...it was really sad....a lot of the magic was missing due to the fact that the lights were gone and it just seemed blah. We usually go to Disney in December but we are now rethinking that especially if the decorations are gong to be so sparse.

I do hope Disney comes up with something special because we never heard the gospel choir sing....twice they were suppose to be performing while we were there we never saw or heard them. Besides a gospel choir somehow does not make up for the beauty of the lights.