Do you think Michael Vick will play in the NFL in the near future ?

[Ian]

Now that I brought that back up, you see where Vick has paid his debt and he deserves a chance to provide for his family ...

He definitely has paid his debt to society, at least as far as the U.S. judicial system is concerned. I'd make the case that he really didn't based on the repugnant nature of his crimes, but it is what it is.

We live in a free market economic system. He is absolutely free to pursue a further career in the NFL. IF (and this is a big "if") he can find someone to employ him. Despite what some people might try to imply, he is not entitled to return to the NFL. He's just entitled to that opportunity.

Some owner out there will have to make the economic (and potentially moral) decision as to whether or not they want him on their team. That's what it's going to come down to. And, as others have already pointed out, there are about a million and a half criminals already playing in pro sports these days so anything is possible, I guess.

Personally, I'd have nothing to do with him. First off, I think people are forgetting ... he was mediocre at best as a quarterback. I can't imagine that two years away from the game has helped that any. Secondly, the outcry from the fan base, the PETA protests, the accompanying loss of team revenue, the public image hit ... No WAY it's worth it to bring in a sub-par player who's two or three years older than he was before when he wasn't that good.

[RAIDER]

Really? If history shows us anything the Raiders are a likely destination. Lets see Raiders, Cowboys, or Ravens, all three franchises seem to be the forgiving types

Personally he paid his debt, case closed.

Yep mate and thats what scares me .
For me Vick could have been up there with the greats in time but he blew it and blew it big .
In soccer we have players have done wrong ( a few through drunken driving and were they have ended up taken an innocent persons life ) and clubs have taken them on with an out cry .

I can see both sides of the debate quite clearly ..But for me i dont think he should be given the opportunity to earn millions of dollars again in the NFL ... To me personally i would just be of the mInd set of " crime pays "

[Scar]

I won't say alot because this issue absolutely infuriates me and I could really get nasty, but I will say that in this society people matter more than animals and there's something fundamentally wrong with that.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but are you saying that humans do not matter more than animals? There is nothing fundamentally wrong with putting people before animals, that is the way it should be.

And for the record, I love animals and own a wonderful, loving Pitbull.

[Greenlawler]

He definitely has paid his debt to society, at least as far as the U.S. judicial system is concerned. I'd make the case that he really didn't based on the repugnant nature of his crimes, but it is what it is.

We live in a free market economic system. He is absolutely free to pursue a further career in the NFL. IF (and this is a big "if") he can find someone to employ him. Despite what some people might try to imply, he is not entitled to return to the NFL. He's just entitled to that opportunity.

Some owner out there will have to make the economic (and potentially moral) decision as to whether or not they want him on their team. That's what it's going to come down to. And, as others have already pointed out, there are about a million and a half criminals already playing in pro sports these days so anything is possible, I guess.

Personally, I'd have nothing to do with him. First off, I think people are forgetting ... he was mediocre at best as a quarterback. I can't imagine that two years away from the game has helped that any. Secondly, the outcry from the fan base, the PETA protests, the accompanying loss of team revenue, the public image hit ... No WAY it's worth it to bring in a sub-par player who's two or three years older than he was before when he wasn't that good.

For the record I have not figured out the whole partial quote yet so forgive me.

I come in peace but I do take issue with two statements "Micheal Vick was mediocre at best" and "sub par player."

He was a starting quaterback in the NFL! Their are hundreds of thousands of college studs who never got a sniff in the NFL. In addition to this even the most negative of critics would be hard pressed to label him sub par. I mean the guy single handidly led the Falcons to a win in Lambeau during the playoffs. Look I am not a Vick fan, at all. But give the guy his due, their are only 32 guys in the world who can say they start on the highest level possible.

I realize you probably meant to say he was an average starter and you may have more merit there, but still I never would rate him in the bottom half of the leagues starters while he was playing. Now with the wildcat formation taking hold. well it is custom made for Vick. He will sign with a team and be there number 2 starter. While I do not want him on my team, if he does have some in the tank he would certainly be an upgrade over 90% of the leagues clipboard holders.

[Ian]

For the record I have not figured out the whole partial quote yet so forgive me.

I come in peace but I do take issue with two statements "Micheal Vick was mediocre at best" and "sub par player."

He was a starting quaterback in the NFL! Their are hundreds of thousands of college studs who never got a sniff in the NFL. In addition to this even the most negative of critics would be hard pressed to label him sub par. I mean the guy single handidly led the Falcons to a win in Lambeau during the playoffs. Look I am not a Vick fan, at all. But give the guy his due, their are only 32 guys in the world who can say they start on the highest level possible.

I realize you probably meant to say he was an average starter and you may have more merit there, but still I never would rate him in the bottom half of the leagues starters while he was playing. Now with the wildcat formation taking hold. well it is custom made for Vick. He will sign with a team and be there number 2 starter. While I do not want him on my team, if he does have some in the tank he would certainly be an upgrade over 90% of the leagues clipboard holders.

Okay ... I mean obviously yes ... he's got some level of talent to have played in the NFL.

But listen ... his last full season (2006) he ranked 20th in the NFL in passer rating (75.7), 22nd in passing yards (2,474), 31st in completion percentage (52.6%).

In terms of being a starting NFL quarterback ... i.e. being able to pass the ball ... he was the very definition of below average.

He could run back then and that made him (I guess) a little more valuable than just his stats, but even so ... very, very average.

My basic point was, he's not good enough (in my opinion) to bother with all the hassles he's going to cause you.

[Melanie]

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but are you saying that humans do not matter more than animals? There is nothing fundamentally wrong with putting people before animals, that is the way it should be.

I agree! I admit I was really bothered by the original statement on this. In general, there is no way would I ever put an animal's life above a human life.

[MMouse6937]

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but are you saying that humans do not matter more than animals? There is nothing fundamentally wrong with putting people before animals, that is the way it should be.

And for the record, I love animals and own a wonderful, loving Pitbull.

I agree! I admit I was really bothered by the original statement on this. In general, there is no way would I ever put an animal's life above a human life.

I'm sorry that you both were "bothered" by my opinion and my beliefs. I do, however, always find it interesting that when people say something that they are afraid appears callous towards animals they have to follow it up by saying that "for the record"they have a certain breed and they love animals, etc. I have no doubt that you do and that you care, your opinion is just different from mine. If I actually did believe that human lives were NOT more important than that of animals would that make me wrong? No, not really, it would just make me someone who doesn't agree with you, and that would be ok, wouldn't it???? I don't choose to argue or make apologies for my opinions, that's what makes this world so great, I don't have to!! I make a difference by volunteering my free time at a shelter that helps abused and abandoned animals and doing whatever I can do to educate people about the plight of animals. I also have 7 animals of my own that I take great care to make sure that they're lives are as close to heaven as possible. I back up what I say with my actions, that's all I can do.

Getting back to the point of the post, I could care less what Michael Vick does with the rest of his life, but if it's possible for me, along with all of the other animal adovacates in this world, to make his return to the NFL difficult, that would be fine too. You can always express your opinions through letter writing and boycotting of the people that might support him. Beyond that, he will do whatever he's going to do.

[Donald A]

I'm sorry that you both were "bothered" by my opinion and my beliefs. I do, however, always find it interesting that when people say something that they are afraid appears callous towards animals they have to follow it up by saying that "for the record"they have a certain breed and they love animals, etc. I have no doubt that you do and that you care, your opinion is just different from mine. If I actually did believe that human lives were NOT more important than that of animals would that make me wrong? No, not really, it would just make me someone who doesn't agree with you, and that would be ok, wouldn't it???? I don't choose to argue or make apologies for my opinions, that's what makes this world so great, I don't have to!! I make a difference by volunteering my free time at a shelter that helps abused and abandoned animals and doing whatever I can do to educate people about the plight of animals. I also have 7 animals of my own that I take great care to make sure that they're lives are as close to heaven as possible. I back up what I say with my actions, that's all I can do.

You know, I think I will chime in here because I think the issue is animals are defenseless. The issue isn't putting them ABOVE a human life, but it is the lack of understanding animals have. As a physician, most of the time I can reason with someone. I can say that I am going to do this to you because I need to do it to make you better. People can refuse a treatment and sometimes do. Well an animal has no idea why something is going on around it. We have an anemic cat who needs a blood draw every couple months to manage his levels. We almost lost him a couple years ago but now have everything under control. Any way, he howls in disapproval loudly like we are torturing him. At that moment, he probably thinks we are. It is what is needed though to keep him alive. Sometimes I wonder if it is fair to do it but once again I CAN REASON that it has to be done.

This is what makes this such a sad situation to me with Michael Vick. I just don't think he is truly sorry about what he did. I THINK HE IS SORRY HE GOT CAUGHT. If he was truly sorry he would probably have tears in his eyes and do everything he could to make it up to animal rescue groups. It was, remember, the court that made him pay to thankfully find homes for most of the dogs.

I said it before, he did his time and could probably come back but I won't like it. I do not like to think about bad things that can happen to animals. Seeing him play football will bring that to my mind and I will probably just chose not to watch.

[Melanie]

I do, however, always find it interesting that when people say something that they are afraid appears callous towards animals they have to follow it up by saying that "for the record"they have a certain breed and they love animals, etc.

Notice I didn't follow up my 'callous' remark, because for the record, I didn't feel it was callous. But that's just my opinion. Now maybe I misunderstood your original statement on this:

I won't say alot because this issue absolutely infuriates me and I could really get nasty, but I will say that in this society people matter more than animals and there's something fundamentally wrong with that.

but I shouldn't be made to feel like something is fundamentally wrong with me because I value a human life over an animal's life. Now torture, like what Vick was doing, is another story altogether.

What Michael Vick did was very wrong, but one silver lining is hopefully more of an awarenesss (and therefore prevention) of this horrible crime. What Mr. Vick's future holds is beyond me and out my hands, but how he chooses to conduct himself will definitely be interesting. Some great examples of what he could do have been mentioned in this thread.

[kakn7294]

You know, I think I will chime in here because I think the issue is animals are defenseless. The issue isn't putting them ABOVE a human life, but it is the lack of understanding animals have. As a physician, most of the time I can reason with someone. I can say that I am going to do this to you because I need to do it to make you better. People can refuse a treatment and sometimes do. Well an animal has no idea why something is going on around it. We have an anemic cat who needs a blood draw every couple months to manage his levels. We almost lost him a couple years ago but now have everything under control. Any way, he howls in disapproval loudly like we are torturing him. At that moment, he probably thinks we are. It is what is needed though to keep him alive. Sometimes I wonder if it is fair to do it but once again I CAN REASON that it has to be done.

This is what makes this such a sad situation to me with Michael Vick. I just don't think he is truly sorry about what he did. I THINK HE IS SORRY HE GOT CAUGHT. If he was truly sorry he would probably have tears in his eyes and do everything he could to make it up to animal rescue groups. It was, remember, the court that made him pay to thankfully find homes for most of the dogs.

I said it before, he did his time and could probably come back but I won't like it. I do not like to think about bad things that can happen to animals. Seeing him play football will bring that to my mind and I will probably just chose not to watch.

Very well put! I completely agree! The fact that he doesn't seem sorry for his part in this is why I think he shouldn't play again.

[MMouse6937]

Notice I didn't follow up my 'callous' remark, because for the record, I didn't feel it was callous. But that's just my opinion. Now maybe I misunderstood your original statement on this:



but I shouldn't be made to feel like something is fundamentally wrong with me because I value a human life over an animal's life. Now torture, like what Vick was doing, is another story altogether.

You are right, actually what I should have prefaced my statement with was that "in my opinion" I believe that society should value animals as much as humans. I did leave out that it is my opinion which might have made people think I was calling them wrong, which I'm not. I do think it's a flaw in society, but again, that's just my opnion. Thanks for letting me clarify.

Donald A, Thanks for putting a lot of things in perspective. Animals as well as children do not have the capacity to understand what is happening to them and why. We as human adults have the value of reason to know what might be happening to us, if not always why. That is why in my opinion hurting animals in the way Vick did is similar to hurting children, they both have no point of reference. It breaks my heart that those dogs thought that this was all life was about. Being chained and abused and made to fight, that it would never be any different. Now to see them learning what it is to be loved and give love as therapy dogs is amazing.

And Donald A, you are so correct that Vick is not upset at what he did, he's upset that he got caught. I don't see that he understands that what he did was wrong at all, just that it really stunk that someone found out. So anyways, that's all I have to say about it. I have strong opinions about animals, that's just who I am. I hope that people in power for the NFL will see that Vick is a bad gamble and steer clear of signing him for anything, but only time will tell.

[Melanie]

You are right, actually what I should have prefaced my statement with was that "in my opinion" I believe that society should value animals as much as humans. I did leave out that it is my opinion which might have made people think I was calling them wrong, which I'm not. I do think it's a flaw in society, but again, that's just my opnion. Thanks for letting me clarify.

It's not wrong, but it's flawed? Oh well, I've been called worse in my life.

And I too believe Vick isn't sorry for what he did. I just hope he realizes at some point.

[Scar]

If I actually did believe that human lives were NOT more important than that of animals would that make me wrong? No, not really, it would just make me someone who doesn't agree with you, and that would be ok, wouldn't it????

Of course that would be OK, I never implied that it wasn't. Although I do believe the vast majority of people would agree with my opinion.

Just for curiosity, what is "interesting" about me clarifying the fact that my statement was not callous?

[gueli]

And Donald A, you are so correct that Vick is not upset at what he did, he's upset that he got caught. I don't see that he understands that what he did was wrong at all, just that it really stunk that someone found out. So anyways, that's all I have to say about it. I have strong opinions about animals, that's just who I am. I hope that people in power for the NFL will see that Vick is a bad gamble and steer clear of signing him for anything, but only time will tell.

How do you know what vick feels ?
Has anyone here heard an interview or spoken with him since he was released ? I have not heard anything, other than second & third hand reports.
Remember a few years in the federal Pen might have changed his viewpoint - and not just because he got caught.
I heard the head of an ASPCA spoke with him in prison- this may not be vick vieying for support - it could even be him trying to find someway to show that he has learned.
As far as him working- If he has the talent...someone in the NFL will need him.or think they do.

He can very much kiss endorsement deals goodby. As far as him working in the NFL or playing for another team good luck.
There are many out there who would like for him never to work again.
I hope his construction job works well for him...

[Donald A]

How do you know what vick feels ?
Has anyone here heard an interview or spoken with him since he was released ? I have not heard anything, other than second & third hand reports.
Remember a few years in the federal Pen might have changed his viewpoint - and not just because he got caught.
I heard the head of an ASPCA spoke with him in prison- this may not be vick vieying for support - it could even be him trying to find someway to show that he has learned.
As far as him working- If he has the talent...someone in the NFL will need him.or think they do.

He can very much kiss endorsement deals goodby. As far as him working in the NFL or playing for another team good luck.
There are many out there who would like for him never to work again.
I hope his construction job works well for him...

As I said earlier, I might give him another chance in my mind if he would work with animal rescue groups. You are, however, right that I do not know how he feels. We shall see. As another human being that has made mistakes (we all have), I wish for him to change his ways, but my gut tells me he probably isn't sorry for what he did.

[Greenlawler]

Forgiveness is a daily decision we have to make. Sometimes it is more painful to forgive than to punish.

I don't want to make people mad but I just get so frustrated with the "need to punish" Micheal Vick further. He was given almost twice the sentence of what someone convicted of his crimes usually gets. He was made an example of.

Our society is funny about who it chooses to forgive.

Another thing, you cannot know what another man is thinking. When you judge someone "because you think there not sorry" you are making a conclusion based on error.

Time to move on.

[Rhetoric2000]

Hi MMouse, I thought it best until I had some time to reply to your post which I now have.

WOW, this type of comment is exactly why I'm so passionate about this issue. Dog fighting and the type of life that these animals were forced to lead is not important to most people. I think that if you were to spend some time with the animals that he tortured and saw the conditions they were exposed to you might have a different opinion.

I have seen plenty of footage of animals who have been subjected to torture, and am exceptionally glad that I have never had to see it live. It is an incredibly unfortunate truth that there are so many in our societies who don't consider animals' wellbeing worthy of consideration.
Fortunately in our countries it is now hugely looked down upon to engage in acts of animal cruelty and even punishable with a prison sentence.
In the case of Michael Vick, for his horrendous crimes he had his personal freedom taken away from him for many, many months. And quite right too.

I won't say alot because this issue absolutely infuriates me and I could really get nasty, but I will say that in this society people matter more than animals and there's something fundamentally wrong with that. .

I don't know if anyone on here has tried to claim that "animals don't matter" - certainly there are many that don't think that animals should have the same rights as humans but that is far from the same thing.
As I have claimed above; I believe drink-driving to be a more severe offence (and I stick by that) because it comes from a conscious decision to refuse any responsibility for one's actions while in control of a destructive piece of machinery - NOT becasue it's okay to hurt animals.

Secondly, whether he ends up back in the NFL is not that important to me because as I mentioned before animals don't matter so people will accept him back as a NFL player without any problem, I have no doubt about that.

I disagree - Michael Vick I'm sure had dreams of becoming a great sporting hero, dreams which a lot of hard work and practice went a long way toward making true - and dreams that now will never come true because no matter his acheivements now for the rest of his sporting career and probably his life he will be known as that guy that tortured dogs.

In addition to the months of freedom taken from him I don't think the NFL need to give him a lifetime ban and take away his livelihood after he has served his punishment.

And of course while I don't think he should be banned from coming back, whether I think specific teams should BRING him back is a different issue - I certainly wouldn't want him playing for my team. But that's a different issue from him being barred from it.

[MMouse6937]

I appreciate your respect of my opinions and disagreeing without making me feel wrong or stupid. I appreciate your comments and understand where you're coming from.

As I said yesterday in the NHL thread, I'm bowing out of this coversation too. I know we all have our opinions, and mine is not a very popular one. It's difficult to spend your weekend being upset over people/comments that I don't really care much about.

Thanks for those of you that saw my point of view and were respectful about it.

So...peace....out!!

[Ian]

It's difficult to spend your weekend being upset over people/comments that I don't really care much about.

Not to ask the obvious question here, but if you don't care why would you be upset?

[MMouse6937]

Not to ask the obvious question here, but if you don't care why would you be upset?

Thanks for making my point, it's because of comments like that. What I guess I SHOULD have said is that I shouldn't have felt bad all weekend over it, but somehow did. I guess then I came to the conculsion that I shouldn't care, so I don't anymore.....YIKES