Improvements vs Cutbacks: Commentary & Discussion of Current Disney Management

[GothMickey]

Imagineer1981, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) here are being duplicitous.

On one forum they will argue that 3rd-party restaurants serve better food and offer better service than do most of the Disney O&O outlets; but on another forum, when there is an announcement about a Disney O&O restaurant giving way to a third-party restaurant, they refuse to call this an "improvement".

cgriff: I have no issues with third parties taking over Disney restaurants. I have never blasted these decisions. However, you said this is Disney investing money in the resort. It's not. It is management's way of making the quick buck without seeing long term gain. Pleasure Island is a great example of how this tactic is failing. They close all their clubs with the ideas that they no longer have to shell money out to keep up the guest experience. They thought it would be easy to get 3rd parties into Pleasure Island. Guess what? Epic failure to this point. Instead of filling up the empty buildings with restaurants, we get: EMPTY BUILDINGS.

On one forum they lament the conditions of rides such as Space Mountain; but on another forum they refuse to recognize the refurbishment that is in progress on that attraction as an "improvement", nor that the money spent on said improvement is a "reinvestment".

Space Mountain needed a refurbishment BADLY. It is getting one. However, it is getting HALF of what it was originally going to get. Why? Well, we all know Phil Holmes HATES to close attractions for long periods of time. The refurbishment was due to last into 2010. Now, it is due to reopen in November. April to November. That is how long the refurb is going to last. HALF of what it was going to. Again, no new track. No on board audio. No new support structure. Why?? MONEY!!! COST!! You can say it is an improvement all you want. I hope it is. But, face it, it will be the same old ride with nothing new in it. Of course they are "reinvesting" money into the ride. But, they CUT the amount of money to be "reinvested." Now, we get a half-hearted refurb. I hope this refurb is a great improvement. And I am sure it will be. But, it could have been so much more. Let me put it to you this way: WDW's Space Mountain would have been the best Space Mountain in all the Disney parks. Now, it will continue to rank 3rd or 4th best.

On one forum they opine for the halcyon days of when the Walt Disney World Skyway to Tomorrowland offered terrific views of the MK; but on another forum they pooh-pooh the idea of a brand new attraction that easily will trump the views from the old Skyway. "Not an improvement", they argue... or "Doesn't cost them enough money", they claim... or "I can see that same view at my local zoo"... (A view of the WDW resort from your local zoo?)

Is this your reasoning for the balloon ride in DTD? Disney used to be at the forefront of innovention. They used to be the standard bearer. Now, they are copycats. They have been surpassed, and are not even close to catching up. Pleasure Island is rotting and the only thing management can come up with is a balloon ride? Which is a copy of the ride in Disneyland Paris. And you misconstrue when people say they see the same view at their local zoon. They say they have the same RIDE at their local zoo. Again, Disney fails to take the lead on ride technology. Instead they rehash stuff already out there. I'll give the balloon ride a shot. The view will probably be amazing. But, nothing innoventive about it.

Basically, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) are so invested in the concept of Disney doing wrong, that even when they run counter to their own previous arguments, they refuse to admit the possibility of Disney doing something even semi-decent.

No one here is a Disney hater. I venture to say, those of us who lay out what is wrong with Disney, actually CARE about Disney. A fan can enjoy the place and critique it as well. A fan can enjoy the parks, but also state their dissatisfaction with what is going on. TDO's attitude is people will come because, hey, we are Disney and gosh darn it, people love us. Their attitude is, they can cut entertainment and people won't care. They will still come. We will still get their money. Heck, let's shut all the effects on all the rides off, cancel all entertainment, and take all characters out of the character meals, and hey, people will come.

I venture to say, those of us who bring up the problems that need to be address are the ones who truly care. Those who see Disney as perfect, their management as perfect, and every decision made as perfect are blind to the problems. These are the people TDO want to appeal to. Those of you who say, "We are willing to give you $3000 for a week and get back only $500 worth of entertainment."

My response to all of their hot air is that I have just purchased a second membership in D23 on my lunchbreak.

The hot air we are spewing is designed to get the attention of people who are sick of the status quo of Disney's Orlando do nothing management team. I still encourage everyone to write letters, emails and make phone calls to voice their displeasure.

As for D23, I am glad you joined a 2nd time. I want to see this succeed so joining twice is a good thing. D23 has a huge potential to be awesome. However, Disney failed to deliver the goods. I am going to join with the hopes that I help this succeed. But, they need to offer more. I do have a feeling more is coming.

[jrpersinger]

Want to see 4 For A Dollar? Go to SeaWorld. They are now performing there.

Again, let Disney know your displeasure. Let them know their surveys are a LIE. It is time we stand up to this pathetic leadership in WDW.

Awesome! I thought they were only there during Christmas. I didn't realize they were extended. We are going to SeaWorld in Aug so I will make sure I go find them! I love them, I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I heard they had been let go. Such talent.... to be replace by what? (and I did send in my letter, a couple actually about that!)

[GothMickey]

Awesome! I thought they were only there during Christmas. I didn't realize they were extended. We are going to SeaWorld in Aug so I will make sure I go find them! I love them, I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I heard they had been let go. Such talent.... to be replace by what? (and I did send in my letter, a couple actually about that!)

Just double check that. I was under the impression they performed their daily now. But, that may not be the case. They were the only reason to go see Beauty and the Beast: Live on Stage. Now, there is no reason to see it anymore. There is another show that needs to be changed out.

[lockedoutlogic]

Imagineer1981, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) here are being duplicitous.

On one forum they will argue that 3rd-party restaurants serve better food and offer better service than do most of the Disney O&O outlets; but on another forum, when there is an announcement about a Disney O&O restaurant giving way to a third-party restaurant, they refuse to call this an "improvement".

On one forum they lament the conditions of rides such as Space Mountain; but on another forum they refuse to recognize the refurbishment that is in progress on that attraction as an "improvement", nor that the money spent on said improvement is a "reinvestment".

On one forum they opine for the halcyon days of when the Walt Disney World Skyway to Tomorrowland offered terrific views of the MK; but on another forum they pooh-pooh the idea of a brand new attraction that easily will trump the views from the old Skyway. "Not an improvement", they argue... or "Doesn't cost them enough money", they claim... or "I can see that same view at my local zoo"... (???)

Basically, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) are so invested in the concept of Disney doing wrong, that even when they run counter to their own previous arguments, they refuse to admit the possibility of Disney doing something even semi-decent.

My response to all of their hot air is that I have just purchased a second membership in D23 on my lunchbreak.

This is off in so many ways....

If you want to have a point/counterpoint debate on all things disney....let me know and we'll get a moderator and block out the time....

but if you goal is to hastily and sloppily slap together a bunch of different subjects and get confused as to how an individual poster feels on them....individually....

then mission: accomplished.

My advice: go back and look at the threads you seem to be "citing" and reread them...I think you'll see that there is a general consensus of opinion amongst the indiviudal posters' thoughts.

The balloon/ skyway view is a great one...by the way.....

I wonder how many years it's been since the skyway has been mentioned on this or any other board.....and i'm dying to see the balloon comparison (actually i'm not....it so silly it's not worth the keystrokes)

[JRocker]

omg, I hate it when I post on the wrong thread.

Of course, this one is so similar to the other bash disney management thread.

I don't necessarily agree with what Disney is doing right now, and I don't necessarily agree with some of the reaction to it either.

What we have to remember is that Disney is a publicly owned company and thier responsibility is to the shareholders. Not the little shareholders like you and I, but the big shareholders that control the company.

If Disney makes huge investments in this climate, the shareholders will cry foul. When this happens, you could lose the company. Now, whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another topic...

They are limited to what they can do, and get away with.

I agree, petition. But what are you going to petition? You have to be specific. If you petition that you don't like the lack of creativity in new developements, well, such a broad stroke WILL get ignored. However, if you are specific, the topic may have a better chance of being addressed.

BTW. One sure way of getting a petition ignored is to complain about a ride that you hate, that hasn't even been completed yet.

[JPL]

I have an idea let's all embrace the cutbacks and watch Disney turn into Six Flags and then complain how bad it has gotten after the fact. Seriously for anyone to think that Disney management is flawless is just insane. They make plenty of mistakes and then try to cover them up before they hit the bottom line. Which is all they really care about. In this difficult economic time Disney should offer guests more for their money not less. They should be saying yes we know you are hurting we are too but if you come here we can garauntee the best value for your vacation dollar. Sorry but lately I feel like I am being nickel and dimed to death.
WDW simply feels that there are enough people right now who will still make that once in a lifetime trip or once every couple of year that their attendance will not suffer from these cutbacks. An uneducated visitor would just think that Wishes and Fantasmic were always only shown 2 days a week and move on. The person visiting for the first time will never know this character left this location to them there was never a character there. The person experiencing a ride like Everest with effects turned off will not notice either. But what they fail to see is that these guests will be much less impressed with the place and therefore much less likely to return anytime soon. These are the people we all talk to from time to time. Who say yeah I went to WDW it was ok, I don't see what all the fuss is about. I won't be going back there for a long time if ever.

One thing Disney has always been about is tradition and they are letting that slip away chasing the $$$$. They encouraged tradition for years. People came to the parks and started their own traditions like having their pictures taken with a certain character at certain place very year to watch their children grow. Now that character may be gone and the tradition lost. Why all so Disney can squeeze a few extra pennies out their guests.

Nobody on this ste is a Disney hater. I love Disney but I will Criticize the things I don't like as well as praise those I do. I will point out bad decisions and state my opinion. Hey if you see everything through pixie dust covered glasses good for you but don't be surprised when you rub your eyes and see that the magic has disappeared.

[valjane]

I get tired of hearing the "Disney has to take care of its stockholders first" argument. Yeah, I suppose in the corporate world that's true, but I'm not sure it's good business sense to ONLY focus on the shareholders and forget about the clients/customers in the process.

Not only are they cutting back on things that distinguish WDW from places like Six Flags, but they're charging more for it, too, for no good reason. So you're paying more, getting less.

For example: holiday buffet pricing. Great idea. Let's offer the EXACT same menu as always, but make a quick buck by charging $5 extra at certain times when more people are bound to be coming through.

Or.... let's increase ticket prices and dates and capacity for MVMCP but get rid of special party buttons and free family photos. And oh yeah, let's let the day guests stay there, too, as long as they're contained to the shops and not the rides.

We went to MVMCP every year for many years, but this past year we finally decided enough was enough. Not for us.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Nice post JPL... I love Disney like the rest of you, but, to think they make the right decisions 100% of the time is flawed thinking... I agree with gothmickey, locked, Ian, and JPL... They are after the quick buck, giving us less and less for our money... I ready to bombard them with letters and calls... Gothmickey, get the group stated... Let's do this!!!!!

[JRocker]

I get tired of hearing the "Disney has to take care of its stockholders first" argument. Yeah, I suppose in the corporate world that's true, but I'm not sure it's good business sense to ONLY focus on the shareholders and forget about the clients/customers in the process.

I totally agree, but that is my point exactly. It is bad business, in the long run. Unfortunately for those of us who enjoy the end product, the shareholder is more about the right now. How much MORE money did the company make when compared to last year. When the company fails to meet those expectations, regardless of how they are building for the future, the company loses. Some company from Belgium swoops in with empty promises, a big loan, and shareholder support.

I'm sorry, but the equation of Lean Times + Publicly Owned = Poor results for the consumer.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Oh, and DCA should count as a huge reinvestment.

If it was done right the first time, they wouldn't have to reinvent billions into a theme park that was destined to fail from the start... Seriously, a theme park about California in California... Who would have thunk that park would be a bust???

[DizneyFreak2002]

I totally agree, but that is my point exactly. It is bad business, in the long run. Unfortunately for those of us who enjoy the end product, the shareholder is more about the right now. How much MORE money did the company make when compared to last year. When the company fails to meet those expectations, regardless of how they are building for the future, the company loses. Some company from Belgium swoops in with empty promises, a big loan, and shareholder support.

I'm sorry, but the equation of Lean Times + Publicly Owned = Poor results for the consumer.

This is part of the reason our economy is in the tank, with companies on the brink of bankruptcy... Disney's continued practice of quick buck making, forgetting long term will be the downfall of their theme parks...

[cgriff]

DizFreak, WDW management is correct 100% of the time? C'mon...

[cgriff]

Seriously, a theme park about California in California... Who would have thunk that park would be a bust???

More duplicity. People were critical of Eisner when DCA was created. And now current Disney management is being criticized for spending tons to fix it. It's like people are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

BTW, I am not saying that Disney got DCA right (I've never been there); however, as a general concept, a theme park about California in California does appeal to me... Ever been to SeaWorld of Texas? You're gonna get a big dose of "Texas" when you go there. Ever been to Universal Studios in Hollywood? Yep, you're gonna get a big dose of Hollywood there. It's a way of getting a feel for the legend of a place, when you can't visit all of the state's farflung historical places... I am not from California, but would I like to learn something about California while visiting a Disney theme park; sure!!

[Hammer]

Yep. They did the same thing after 9/11 (which was even more despicable, IMO).

So what they'll do is cut back 30% of offerings now and then, when the economy rebounds, they'll bring back 10% of the cuts and sell them as "new and exciting changes at the Walt Disney World Resort!"

One common thread runs throughout Corporate America ... they really believe the general public is stupid.

Sadly, in many cases, they are 100% correct.

Ian, totally agree with this post, and that line of thinking can be expanded to how sports teams are run, what TV networks put on the schedule, etc...

Corporate America has become insanely risk averse when it comes to spending money. If you can't trace a clear relationship between the expense the ROI forget it ... the money won't be spent.

You can debate endlessly whether it's right, wrong, indifferent ... whether it's because the execs want to line their pockets at the expense of everything else ... whether it's the way Wall Street looks at company balance sheets, or whatever.

But the bottom line is that Disney follows the same model that all of Corporate America follows without stopping to think that they're not in the same business as a bank or a brokerage house or even a retail chain.

They sell experiences and if they continually cut back and cheapen the experience, eventually people will stop buying their product.

The problem is that Disney corporation has grown too large to cater to one division such as resorts and parks. They think of how giving a bunch of money to one area will effect other divisions like TV. I'm not saying that is right, just the way it is.

Lockedout, c'mon, stop agitating.

There is quite a bit of reinvestment and/or improvements going on in the parks. Read the Tidbits sticky at the top of this board for starters, plus you've got your Space Mountain refurb, new construction in Tomorrowland (new stage show?), new construction at DTD (hot air balloon ride?), new restaurants (Kouzinne), new resorts (4 Seasons/Western Way/Pop expansion)... These are just the things off the top of my head... Seems to me that there is quite a bit of reinvestment/improvement projects going on, considering the current economic clime.

1) Space Mountain refurb- as has been stated, the budget for this has been sliced in half so you are only getting half of what could have been done.

2) New stage show- Really? That's a big improvement to you? I think it is a waste of space on a character whose mass appeal was about 10 years ago...

3)Hot air balloon ride- Like Ian and locked stated, hardly a unique experience. Please give me the opportunity for an experience I do not have in my back yard.

4) Kouzinna- While this restaurant has promise, it is not an addition. One restaurant is switching out with another.

5) Four Seasons- This is not an investment by Disney. This is Disney admitting that they cannot provide a true luxury resort experience by attracting top resort staff with what they are willing to pay their employees. We have had this discussion before and I am not going to beat a .

[DizneyFreak2002]

Well $16 a person for a family is $64 for a 10 minute experience. IMHO that's pretty steep in these times.

And for what, the magical view???

[Tekneek]

But the bottom line is that Disney follows the same model that all of Corporate America follows without stoping to think that they're not in the same business as a bank or a brokerage house or even a retail chain.

From what I have read recently, this is the philosophy that is taught to all the business grads out there. A one size fits all approach to business management. The idea that the rules are the same, no matter what your business does. Just about the only time you see these rules broken are when visionaries/innovators are at the helm. When you let managers run the place, you end up with people who are just trying to shake more pennies loose from everything. Their vision extends to the bottom line of the financial statement and not much farther. They have no imagination, because they don't teach that in Executive MBA programs.

[lockedoutlogic]

From what I have read recently, this is the philosophy that is taught to all the business grads out there. A one size fits all approach to business management. The idea that the rules are the same, no matter what your business does. Just about the only time you see these rules broken are when visionaries/innovators are at the helm. When you let managers run the place, you end up with people who are just trying to shake more pennies loose from everything. Their vision extends to the bottom line of the financial statement and not much farther. They have no imagination, because they don't teach that in Executive MBA programs.

Two things:

1. Because disney is publically held and part of the DJIA....don't confuse it with Microsoft, Exxon, Proctor and Gamble, or Walmart

Disney's entire product is perception and emotion. Parks, Movies, Toys, TV, Radio.....it's not the physical product that they are peddling....that is only the biproduct.

So...the "in business....fiduciary responsibility is the key to longterm growth and profit sustainability" line of thought should not be strictly applied to Disney. It doesn't fit with what the do or what they have ever done....

2. Don't confuse the Disney Management ranks with the Wharton or Harvard Business School types....
Undoubtedly, they have many of those....but disney shows possibly the least amount of regard for Pedigreed businessmen of any company in america. They still allow management to be generated from the ice cream cart up....with many in park operations rising to high levels without impressive education resumes....

Types like Al Weiss have a BS from UCF and an MBA from Rollins college......

not much paperwork for running Billions of dollars in operations in 5 countries on 3 continents

And Weiss is a token Central Florida plant for PR purposes anyway....

Entertainment companies can be like that.....hollywood is run by cutthroats who get to where they are by consuming the blood of those that stand in their way.....not by pedigree

See: EISNER, MICHAEL

[cgriff]

Not really jumping to conclusions but I will say this after following WDW trends for as long as I have it's not a far jump...

Ok, but at least *you* recognize the embarrasing, certainly non-useful nature of complaining about Disney management for a decision that they haven't made and may never make, right? [There has been no official communication regarding any Wishes cutbacks].

Since you follow WDW trends closely, you know then that the last two refurbs in MK of classic Disney attractions --Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion --were both major, home-run successes! They were also both venomously criticized by the Disney fanboy community during the refurbishment period. Per the trend, the current Space Mountain refurb, if not another smash success, should at least be an improvement over the ride's current state.

[GothMickey]

Ok, but at least *you* recognize the embarrasing, certainly non-useful nature of complaining about Disney management for a decision that they haven't made and may never make, right? [There has been no official communication regarding any Wishes cutbacks].

Since you follow WDW trends closely, you know then that the last two refurbs in MK of classic Disney attractions --Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion --were both major, home-run successes! They were also both venomously criticized by the Disney fanboy community during the refurbishment period. Per the trend, the current Space Mountain refurb, if not another smash success, should at least be an improvement over the ride's current state.

Haunted Mansion: I agree that the refurbishment was a major upgrade.

Pirates: I wouldn't consider it a home run success. The Jack Sparrows don't add to the ride.

Space Mountain: Don't count on this being HUGE. Again, the budget has been cut. The refurb, therefore, has been slashed. Will it be an improvement over what's there now? It better be an approvement over a 30 something year old ride. But, again, it could have been so much more. THIS is what I am calling out Disney, more specifically, ORLANDO'S management team out on.

When I get a chance, I am going to go park by park and point out their failures. If we can give them the credit for successes, then we can knock them for their failures.

[lockedoutlogic]

Ok, but at least *you* recognize the embarrasing, certainly non-useful nature of complaining about Disney management for a decision that they haven't made and may never make, right? [There has been no official communication regarding any Wishes cutbacks].

Since you follow WDW trends closely, you know then that the last two refurbs in MK of classic Disney attractions --Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion --were both major, home-run successes! They were also both venomously criticized by the Disney fanboy community during the refurbishment period. Per the trend, the current Space Mountain refurb, if not another smash success, should at least be an improvement over the ride's current state.

While I can certainly respect your desire to defend the faith....to a certain extent....you are way off on this one...

the Pirates and Haunted Mansion refurbs not only were for sprucing things up....they also included additonal elements to be integrated into the ride....

Space Mountain....on the otherhand....is getting nothing but barebones mechanical necessities and paint....if the latest plan is true....

that is a big mistake....

First....I've been on 3 of the space mountains....and i can tell you that the DL and DLP space mountains put the WDW version to absolute shame...

Granted...not all rides are gonna turn out the same....some better, some worse....but space mountain has basically been left to rot in many ways in Florida....which is silly for two reasons

1. It's in Florida....you know? Cape Canaveral? NASA?
2. It's the original...and WDW entertains the most guests by far.....
Realistically speaking....WDW should have the "best" of all the cloned rides....never the worst....from a sheer exposure standpoint.

A six month timeframe is not gonna cut it for a ride such as space mountain....i'm sorry...IT AIN'T

That is a fun - but violent (for 35 MPH and 35 years old) ride...and lacks any modern feel to the ride....the integrated sound would have been enough.....perhaps some holographic type imagery....maybe some advanced lighting effects....

But they're not doing it

A complete redo of the interior track to make it a completely new ride system would have been better....

They're certainly not doing that....


Nope....have to disagree here....this one is gonna be a waste of time....given the timeframe....it almost has to be