2011 points charts - They did it again

[NewDVCowner]

I'm not at all doubting those who said their guides told them the points could never change. I totally believe that's what they were told. I do know that our guide explained to us clearly about the point system, and that within the system itself, the points could never change, but that the points for a particular week could change. He told us that if they did, the changes would probably be minor, because they had to balance out throughout the year.

This is what my guide told me. He said that the points could change, however the total number of points per year will always be the same.

[Donald A]

This is what my guide told me. He said that the points could change, however the total number of points per year will always be the same.

I am wondering if what the guide told "us" was based on "when" he told us. I was told that they wouldn't change in November 2006 when the points were not really changing. Did your guide tell you this more recently? I am happy that at least now they are telling people or at least being a little more clear on the whole process.

[Ian]

I am wondering if what the guide told "us" was based on "when" he told us. I was told that they wouldn't change in November 2006 when the points were not really changing. Did your guide tell you this more recently? I am happy that at least now they are telling people or at least being a little more clear on the whole process.

I had the same thought.

[DizneyRox]

We've been owners since 2000...

[1DisneyNut]

When we were considering DVC I read the documents, including fine print, cover to cover. I also did research on the way the DVC system was structured. By Florida Law they can only sell so many points for a particular room/resort. They must reserve a certain amount of rooms for rent not DVC ownership. The number of points for a room for the total year's reservations cannot be changed, it is a fixed total. They can however, adjust the points required for certain days, or seasons as they want as long as the total for the year remains the same. This is all hidden in the literature somewhere and can also be found in Florida's real estate code concerning time shares. I believe they intentionally down play these aspects and try to avoid discussing them. I am sure they receive training in this area. I also believe, as I mentioned in my earlier post, that the point system was structured to help sell DVC memberships based on points for a 5 night vacation as that seems to be what most people including myself were "pitched" by the agents. In my opinion, they had all of these newest developments and they wanted to sell them quickly as possible so they made it look sweet as possible but had a long range plan to redistribute the points over the seasons and days to foil the 5 day vacation planning for most members so they would desire to add on more points. It is so simple but yet brilliant, you know this has to be true. With all that said, DVC does work well for some people but those considering buying in should take at least a month and do the math and their homework. DVC is a real estate transaction so it should not be taken lightly.

[Donald A]

When we were considering DVC I read the documents, including fine print, cover to cover. I also did research on the way the DVC system was structured. By Florida Law they can only sell so many points for a particular room/resort. They must reserve a certain amount of rooms for rent not DVC ownership. The number of points for a room for the total year's reservations cannot be changed, it is a fixed total. They can however, adjust the points required for certain days, or seasons as they want as long as the total for the year remains the same. This is all hidden in the literature somewhere and can also be found in Florida's real estate code concerning time shares. I believe they intentionally down play these aspects and try to avoid discussing them. I am sure they receive training in this area. I also believe, as I mentioned in my earlier post, that the point system was structured to help sell DVC memberships based on points for a 5 night vacation as that seems to be what most people including myself were "pitched" by the agents. In my opinion, they had all of these newest developments and they wanted to sell them quickly as possible so they made it look sweet as possible but had a long range plan to redistribute the points over the seasons and days to foil the 5 day vacation planning for most members so they would desire to add on more points. It is so simple but yet brilliant, you know this has to be true. With all that said, DVC does work well for some people but those considering buying in should take at least a month and do the math and their homework. DVC is a real estate transaction so it should not be taken lightly.

You make very valid points. I am wondering if the "higher ups" knew all this and just didn't "share" it with the guides. DVC has added a lot of members since I joined in 2006. I have heard when I inquired about selling my timeshare that in the past they actually raised the points for weekends a few years prior to me joining. Does anyone know if this is true? If so, 1DisneyNut's thinking may be valid.

[dlpmikki]

I probably said this last time the discussion came up. I knew about the possibility of changing the points and I joined back in 92. At the time we were told that weekends were more expensive because they were more popular. If weekdays have become more popular then it makes sense that the points are changing. My understanding from way back then was that Disney wanted the rooms filled on as many nights as possible and the spread of points costs was one way of trying to make that happen. It was made clear that the total for the whole year could not change. I seem to recall there was some maximum change they could make each time.

Until last year they had only ever changed the points once but I can't remember which way it went then.

[DizneyRox]

This may be hard to believe, but I don't think this is part of some master plan.

Downplayed during the sales pitch? Sure...

But some master plan to sell more points? No, that doesn't make sense. They are still building more resorts that I don't could possibly be sold out to existing members. They need new members to keep building. Showing their hand now doesn't make sense to me.

I do agree that things are stacked againt members though. They could reserve all the cheap rooms for cash and make them unavailable to members forcing up the point costs to stay. There are a number of tricks probably that are within the rules.

Are other things like the DDP part of a master plan? Sure... MYW tickets were a cleverly designed price increase.

[MinnieMommie]

My guide was clear to us when we purchased that the points may shift a bit but that within a given framework they would remain the same. I think evening out the week days and week end points is good in some ways. When we first purchased I was more reluctant to use points for Friday and Saturday night stays. That is not really a major concern anymore. I feel better about selecting my days based on things other than just the point schedule. I don't feel tied to that anymore. I am ok about the changes.

[NewDVCowner]

I am wondering if what the guide told "us" was based on "when" he told us. I was told that they wouldn't change in November 2006 when the points were not really changing. Did your guide tell you this more recently? I am happy that at least now they are telling people or at least being a little more clear on the whole process.

It was late 2008/early 2009 when I started talking to DVC.

[DVC Mike]

I listened to my sales guide as she gave me an overview of how DVC works, but then when I got home, I read all the documents they provided me cover-to-cover. Thus, I've had no surprises.

[DVC2004]

Re-allocation has always been part of the contract, however DVC hadn't done it for years. I remember my guide telling me when we toured.

[seanyred]

I'm not completely surprised that the points have been reallocated again. I wonder if due to the current economy peoples vacation habits have changed and these reallocation are a response to that.

Also I don't fully understand why people get so upset. I have a minimum amount of points so I don't have a ton of flexibility, but I still feel fortunate that I am an owner. If it impacts my vacations slightly so be it as long as I get my Disney fix.

[Ian]

I listened to my sales guide as she gave me an overview of how DVC works, but then when I got home, I read all the documents they provided me cover-to-cover. Thus, I've had no surprises.

I don't think I said it in this thread, but I did last time this topic came up ... I absolutely take personal responsibility for not knowing they could move points around like this. It's obviously in the documents that were given to me and I just didn't take the time to read them.

But again ... I really don't care. It doesn't bother me at all and I'm actually kind of happy they're evening the points out a bit.

That being said, there could have been other nasty little surprises in there that I wouldn't have been aware of because I didn't take the time to read my docs, so shame on me. And I definitely encourage anyone thinking of buying to take the time and read that paperwork.

[diz_girl]

The number of points for a room for the total year's reservations cannot be changed, it is a fixed total. They can however, adjust the points required for certain days, or seasons as they want as long as the total for the year remains the same. This is all hidden in the literature somewhere and can also be found in Florida's real estate code concerning time shares. I believe they intentionally down play these aspects and try to avoid discussing them.

I've never actually met with a guide, so I can't speak for that experience. However, it is pretty clear on the DVC promotional DVDs and DVC Web Presentations that I've viewed (which my guide has sent me) that the total number of points on the chart can't change but the point requirements for different dates will vary form year to year.

The DVC Web Presentation that I've seen (and saved in my Favorites for an occasional Disney 'fix') states, "The total number of points on this chart can never change for the life of your membership. While reservation requirements for seasons and dates will vary from year to year, the total number of vacation points for the year will be exactly the same this year as it would be in 2015 and 2025 and 2045." That's pretty clear to me. They actually say that the points will vary, rather than may vary, so I expect some change from year to year.

So I bought enough points to cover the time of year that I plan to go to WDW (non-peak, non-holiday), but I also built in a cushion in case they start to reallocate points from peak and holiday times to the (currently) less busy times of the year.

[Hammer]

I've never actually met with a guide, so I can't speak for that experience. However, it is pretty clear on the DVC promotional DVDs and DVC Web Presentations that I've viewed (which my guide has sent me) that the total number of points on the chart can't change but the point requirements for different dates will vary form year to year.

The DVC Web Presentation that I've seen (and saved in my Favorites for an occasional Disney 'fix') states, "The total number of points on this chart can never change for the life of your membership. While reservation requirements for seasons and dates will vary from year to year, the total number of vacation points for the year will be exactly the same this year as it would be in 2015 and 2025 and 2045." That's pretty clear to me. They actually say that the points will vary, rather than may vary, so I expect some change from year to year.

So I bought enough points to cover the time of year that I plan to go to WDW (non-peak, non-holiday), but I also built in a cushion in case they start to reallocate points from peak and holiday times to the (currently) less busy times of the year.

When I met with a DVC guide in 2002 and 2003 I was never given any DVDs or web links. What paperwork my guide gave me spoke of how a week could be shifted based on holidays, but nothing about point reallocation for days of the week.

Look, I'm not saying some of this doesn't fall on me. When I had the money to consider buying into DVC in 2007, I probably should have taken another tour and gotten more paperwork. I was there for Icot's 10th anniversary and I did not want to miss out on things. Not to mention I knew I was going to buy resale because the price per point was decidedly higher with Disney and I was paying cash for my purchase.

You can't tell me, though, that the fact that they have reallocated points the last 2 years after having only done it one other time in the history of the program is a coincedence. The economy is slowly starting come back, but people aren't spending money on luxuries such as DVC yet. That area is usually the last part of an economy to recover. So, Disney is looking for ways to get some revenue flowing in. That's why I think they started the once a year option to rent points. They figure if they keep reallocationg points, those who bought in at 150-160 points will be persuaded to add onto our contracts.

Hey, I do enjoy DVC and I may eventually purchase a small add-on when I can comfortably do it without touching my savings, but it won't be through Disney as their price per point is way too high. It will be on my terms, not theirs. Until then, I'll just make due with what I have. If it means less days at the parks, so be it.

[Aurora]

I would LOVE to see the algorithms they have to create to try not only to figure out current vacation patterns, but to try to anticipate future ones. I'm sure the reallocation of points in the last two years and the fact that they're offering rental points are not coincidence.

As many others have said, that tells me that there are too many people staying in one category (maybe Thursdays, or a certain season), and they're trying to even out the points. With MILLIONS of points in circulation, they HAVE to keep a balance.

Here's a theory: We know there is a certain segment of the membership that vacations only every other year, because they don't have enough points for an annual vacation. With the current economy, Disney may have a situation where even more members than usual are banking their points to use next year because they can't afford a vacation this year. Then next year rolls around, and there are too many points in the system for people to be able to find a room.

The solution? Move points around, to get people to take shorter, weekend trips, and offer rental points, to get people to use their points and not bank.

It's a possibility.

[Tiggerish]

Back in 1997, when we did the DVC sales presentation, I remember being told that the point values for the different rooms in the different seasons could and likely would change, however, as others have mentioned, the total number of points required for the year would not and could not change.

We bought enough points to be able to stay for 1 week in a 1BR at our preferred time of year, which is generally Choice, and we have always been content with that, never even thought about adding on.

Before the recent point-leveling, we would generally vacation from Sunday-Thursday becuase the points for Fri-Sat were so dramatically higher (IMO). Now, however, we are as likely to take a long weekend. Just yesterday, I called MS and was able to book a savannah-view studio at AKL for the final weekend of the Food & Wine Festival. That would not have been possible at this time last year; I think they moved around the points because they were finding that they would be booked Sun-Thurs and not so much on Fri-Sat. Just my opinion.

[DizneyRox]

You can't tell me, though, that the fact that they have reallocated points the last 2 years after having only done it one other time in the history of the program is a coincedence. The economy is slowly starting come back, but people aren't spending money on luxuries such as DVC yet. That area is usually the last part of an economy to recover. So, Disney is looking for ways to get some revenue flowing in. That's why I think they started the once a year option to rent points. They figure if they keep reallocationg points, those who bought in at 150-160 points will be persuaded to add onto our contracts.

Another option could be they have a boat load of points they had to take back because of foreclosures, etc and instead of eating the costs of those until they can be resold, they rent them out to members who need a little more.

I haven't seen anyone complain about Disney taking their points through ROFR. I think Disney has a ton of points on hand and nothing is going on with them.

I don't think Disney cares too much about people banking points. I don't think it matters if people are able to use the points, but I might be wrong. If there's no availability, because other members booked all the rooms, I don't know if that's Disneys fault. That's another good question though.