Having doubts about owning DVC

[locutus]

When was there a free park ticket offer?

The last 2 summers free park admissions were included in their packages. This year was the dining instead of admissions.

[locutus]

And here is how the dining is not free:

Offer 1: Pay $240 a night (lowest rate in value season) at the WL, but get two adults on the dining plan, a value of $80 a night. Total of $240 out of you pocket

Offer 2: Pay $156 a night (35% off the lowest rate in value season) at the WL, but buy 2 adults on the dining plan for $40 X 2 = $80. So now you have a room for $156 plus dining out of pocket for $80, for a total of $236.

So a total of $4 different (though more people in the room make free dining a better deal, but since you have to pay $25 a night for additional adults, and the dining plan for kids is much cheaper, the deals are still similar in overall value.)

But it aint free.....nothing in life is.

The non members don't just show up and get handed a plate of money. They have to pay over-inflated room rates to get something for free.

I do see what you are saying. But that was 2 people. A family of 4 with a booked room at the all star sports--they were upgraded to a one bedroom villa at SSR ( i know that dosent happen often )-paid $1650. Room and food. I paid $1400 in maint. fees. I also added the dining for my wife and 2 kids- $611. And I only had a studio for 6 nights. Maybe their "Included in package" price wasnt free but it was still cheaper than what Many off if not all of us pay. Im started this post not to argue with anyone. I bought when I did because I grew up going to Disney. I love it as my children do. All i was trying to convey was it it ashame that poeple who did not invest in Disney so often get better deals than those of us who have spent 15, 20 ,25 thousand or more. I know co workers of mine who have the club--actually ownership a 2 different resorts who will defend Disney to his dying day. But even he admits he feels slighted at times.

[FutureCorpsFan]

Ok..it's time for some tough love for you two.

The reality is that you bought a timeshare, not a club membership. As much as DVC (and many other vacation clubs) tries to hide it, you bought the right to annually use a unit in a multifamily dwelling for a predetermined period of time. DVC has hidden this fact behind a lot of flexibility, but the fact remains, that's what you bought.

You'd be right to expect things like park ticket or dining discounts, if you had bought into a discount club, but you didn't. You bought a timeshare managed by the Walt Disney Company.

Therefore, Disney has no interest in offering you a discount on park tickets or dining. You're not the best customers, you're locked in customers....what are you going to do if you don't get a discount....not come, not buy park tickets, and not eat? Well in that case they'll either foreclose on you if you don't pay your maintenance fees, or even better for them, sell the room to a daily renter at a higher price....now they've gotten paid for the maintenance AND sold your use to another guest.

All they have to do is keep the vast majority of owners minimally satisfied. If they treat you too badly, too many people will default and they'll be short on maintenance....but guess what...they'd get to sell the unit again with having had to pay you off for your original investment.

Timeshare salespeople are some of the best, most seductive salespeople out there. They sold you value and how much money you'd save.....which is true....but the saving will likely come much further down the road than you expect...and it will only be on the accommodations portion of your vacation.

So why buy in at all? Why give up the opportunity to take advantage of discounts? Because in the long run you get nicer than typical accommodations at a reasonable and predictable price. You never know what the price of a WDW vacation will be in 2015, or what discounts will or won't be offered. By owning the accommodations portion of that future trip, you have some protection against inflation.

Personally, I bought my first timeshare because I wanted Atlantis to be an important part of my life going forward, and I knew from running the numbers that it made a nice annual family vacation an affordable luxury...and one I am required to put in my family's budget every year. That's why the DVC will be part of my life in the future.

If after reading this you realize that the DVC is not for you....you shouldn't feel like a traitor. You might prefer the opportunity to get discounts over the things that the DVC has to offer. Fortunately for you in this scenario DVC has a very active aftermarket.

I'm not sure I agree with this. As consumers, we have choices. DVC members are not "locked in" to anything. Yes we could resell, but we also have choices to go to other vacation destinations other than Disney within DVC. Those choices are viable, family locations which ultimately takes revenue away from the publiclly traded company "DIS." Vegas is one place that you can get severe discounts on dining and attractions even if you are not staying at a resort. And while not at Disney, our vacation dollars are going somewhere else.

So, from a corporate pespective, it would benefit the corporate entity "DIS" to make it a little more attractive to keep their primary customer coming back year over year besides the accomodation cost. Since the goal of any public company is to increase shareholder value, offering additional incentives could help ensure the revenue stream.

[It'sWDW4me]

The last 2 summers free park admissions were included in their packages. This year was the dining instead of admissions.

Wow, I missed this deal. I was at Pop in August 2006, at OKW (yes, I was one of those lucky people - ressie at ASMo was upgraded to OKW) in August 2007, and at POR in August 2008. I had "free" dining but I definitely paid for my park tickets. No, park tickets were most decidedly not included for free because I would have jumped all over that!

Look, I can see your point but I also think you're taking a fairly narrow view on this. You shelled out a lot of money and continue to shell out for dues every year. To see these discounts right now is painful, I'm sure. But 20 years from now, you'll be able to laugh at those discounts because you'll have "paid" much, much, much less! Step back and take in the wider view.

Isn't there a discount on annual passes for DVC members? TIW? I don't know for sure because I just can't financially swing buying in to DVC right now but I definitely would if I could.

[TheRustyScupper]

I myself have been a member for 5 years now and am having some real second thoughts about it.

1) You also forgot to amortize the $25,000 it cost up front.
2) Now, you have to add $1,000 per year (payment and future interest).
3) Boing!

[locutus]

actually right now im at 1400 a year.

[Ian]

As consumers, we have choices. DVC members are not "locked in" to anything. Yes we could resell, but we also have choices to go to other vacation destinations other than Disney within DVC. Those choices are viable, family locations which ultimately takes revenue away from the publiclly traded company "DIS."

So, from a corporate pespective, it would benefit the corporate entity "DIS" to make it a little more attractive to keep their primary customer coming back year over year besides the accomodation cost. Since the goal of any public company is to increase shareholder value, offering additional incentives could help ensure the revenue stream.

Yeah ... see I sort of agree with you on this. The mantra of a lot of folks is "Oh once you buy DVC they have your money and they don't care about you." and that may actually be the way Disney feels.

But if that's so, that's very, very unwise. First off, DVC members tend to be their most loyal customers. That means they're the most likely to have high expectations as to how they're treated by the company. They also tend to be very vocal ... they talk to other people about their memberships, Disney theme parks, and their Disney experiences in general. Many times, they do it on the Internet on boards just like this one. And we have a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide audience. You complain here and tens of thousands of people could see it.

Second, I can't believe that word of mouth isn't a big way Disney drives DVC sales. Folks with money to buy into DVC tend to move in social circles with other folks who have money to buy DVC. If they have a bad experience, they're going to talk their friends out of buying instead of becoming advocates for the program.

Lastly, as someone mentioned above, you don't have to use your points at Disney. There are literally hundreds of other reasonable options. So if members don't get treated right, they might just go off to other places and take their dollars for merch, food, park admission, etc. with them.

[locutus]

You are totally right Ian.

[Jeffybob]

I bought into the BWV's over 10 years ago and do not regret it in the least. We live in NoCA and it is cheaper for us to go to Orlando than to SoCA, points wise and stay at the Boardwalk vs DLR properties.

We take advantage of cheap flights on SW from the West, often using a free ticket here and there; the magical express to and from the resort; lodging at our home resort thus taking advantage of the 11 mo booking window; we buy 10 day, park hopper, no expiration tickets in advance and also take advantage of the dining plans.

Another perk is that we can book single days instead of a week at a time which is helpful for trips like our upcoming cruise on the Magic. We are staying the night before the cruise and the night of our return at the BWV's and are also able to use the timeshare for the inlaws and our BFF too, saving them the cost of lodging on both ends, which is a significant savings.

We are already booked in 2010 for Presidents Day weekend and the Fourth of July.

-Jeffybob (Boardwalk DVC Member since '98)

2009 - BWV (2), DCL - Eastern Caribbean
2008 - BWV (2)
2007 - BWV
2006 - DLR (2), SSR, BWV, DCL - Western Caribbean
2005 - HH, BWV (2)
2003 - BWV
2002 - BWV, Disneyland Paris
2001 - BWV, DLC - Bahamas
2000 - BWV
1999 - BWV, HH, VB
1998 - BWV, Swan

[DVC Mike]

I have absolutely no regrets about purchasing DVC.

[luvDaMouse]

My only regret is that I did not buy MORE points, which I hope to rectify soon

[lens300]

I the only thing I thought of when I heard about the free upgrades to SSR was what budget is being used for upkeep of those rooms. I hope it is separate from our maintenance fees. Also since those rooms are technically paid for buy us dose DVC recieve any money from the hotel division. Some one must pay for housekeeping, pool maintenance, wear and tear in the rooms, property taxes and all other things our dues cover.
As far as I am concerned those rooms should be empty unless they are the few that are kept for rental purpose other than that there better be some funds transfered. And we should see a reduction in our dues.

[johnO]

Anyway I doubt 'one guy's' numbers are accurate. I've been pricing WDW vacations all spring and summer, and it never got that cheap. He must be leaving out park tickets or the actual room cost.

$1700 for Room, free dining and park tickets for a family of four, IS accurate.

[Ian]

$1700 for Room, free dining and park tickets for a family of four, IS accurate.

It's accurate if you're staying at Pop Century, but certainly not accurate if you're staying in a villa!

My cousin and his family booked a treehouse for last week and it cost them something like $6,000 for 4 adults and 1 child with admission and free dining.

[Aurora]

$1700 for Room, free dining and park tickets for a family of four, IS accurate.

The original poster said that their park tickets were not included. He also said it was a family of five (2 adults and 3 kids, not sure of age).

[DVC2004]

We joined about 5 and a half years ago now and have never once regretted our decision. We go more than we used to because it is more affordable. I want to say we paid around $12K or $13K, pay $700 and some odd dollars a year in dues. However, we are staying in rooms that are larger and we can stay longer, or we can go more often. We have been able to take my sister's family on a few occassions and stay in a 2 BR which rents out for big bucks on cash. We exchanged out last year and got a 2 BR at Harborside in Atlantis for 7 nights (room priced out on various travel websites for $11,600). I have also used it for a week in Hawaii. We have more than gotten our money's worth, but still have 44 years left on our deed. I'd estimate the value of the trips we have already taken since joining (both Disney and nonDisney) at easily $30,000. So I bought in for $13K and paid $3500 in dues for 5 years= I have spent $16500. Not a bad deal to me to take quality vacations I would have paid in cash for anyway- and spent half the price tag others would have taking the same trips.

Personally I could care less about free dining, gift card rebates, etc. Nothing is really "free" when you consider the facts. Free dining means paying more for your room, even at the values which are not comparable to DVC. And I have a legacy to give to my kids or sell (which it has appreciated in value) later on.

DVC's not for everyone. It is, however, for us. If you are going to vacation at least once per year, even once every other year, it almost always makes sense.

[Aurora]

I know this has been brought up before, but I think we often get rankled by "sweet" deals like "free" dining offered to the general public and forget that DVC members get discounts all year on annual passes, water park tickets, special event tickets, dining and purchases. Plus we get to pool hop. Plus, overall we pay less for our room (yes, even when we stay in a one-bedroom, even if we own at SSR, even when Disney offers prospective purchasers big discounts to stay there).

I'm happy with DVC even without free dining. Including our initial purchase price AND annual dues, our last trip cost us about $120 a night for our 1-bedroom for 2 adults and 3 children. In June! We paid more than that for an extra night at a regular room at Port Orleans.

[MidnTPK]

I'm not sure I agree with this. As consumers, we have choices. DVC members are not "locked in" to anything.

Yes, you are locked in. If you don't pay your dues, you'll not have the DVC for very long.

Your personal occupation of your unit is another story. But from Disney's perspective, they don't care. You can occupy it, rent it out, or swap it within the DVC for something else. Either way, they have locked in customers in that unit until the end of the DVC lease.

Yes we could resell, but we also have choices to go to other vacation destinations other than Disney within DVC. Those choices are viable, family locations which ultimately takes revenue away from the publiclly traded company "DIS."

Resell: another family takes over your usage and dues. No change for Disney.

And that swap within DVC is a great deal for Disney. If you don't occupy that room, they can sell it as a regular hotel room and make far more revenue on it than if you had occupied it. That's why the best use of points is at DVC resorts. anything else and the DVC member is taking a material hit on the value of their points that year.

And while not at Disney, our vacation dollars are going somewhere else.

Yes, your dollars are going somewhere else. But Disney is replacing you with someone else and their dollars are being spent at WDW.

So, from a corporate pespective, it would benefit the corporate entity "DIS" to make it a little more attractive to keep their primary customer coming back year over year besides the accomodation cost.

Yes, and this is what I meant by minimal. And other have added that DVC keeps the quality up to help sales to existing members.

Anyway, I was communicating a little harshly in that post to get my point across. Previous posters were upset that they weren't getting the discounts or perks that non-members were getting. They were misunderstanding what they had bought into. I was offering some tough love so that they have a better feeling for what they have and what they'll get in the future, rather than be upset every year.

You should notice that I'm a fan of DVC. It offers a good value for the annual deluxe WDW visitor. But others might be getting sold a bill of goods that there's this miraculous saving associated with the DVC. That's never going to be what the DVC is because of the nature of the enterprise.

[Aurora]

Locutus, I reread all your posts and didn't see where your home resort is or how many points you have per year. If you're paying $1,400 in annual dues, you are receiving at least 200 points per year. (Vero Beach has the highest annual dues at $6.40 per point.)

Even if you stayed concierge at the Animal Kingdom in a studio at the end of August you would have about 80 points left over. So per night, averaged out, it is costing you less than you think.

The guy that you met stayed 7 nights for his price. You get to stay almost twice as long for that $1,400.

[Ian]

It offers a good value for the annual deluxe WDW visitor. But others might be getting sold a bill of goods that there's this miraculous saving associated with the DVC. That's never going to be what the DVC is because of the nature of the enterprise.

I actually like this summation. I think it really crystalizes, in two or three sentences, exactly what DVC is.

DVC is best suited for guests who visit at least once or twice a year for 14-20 days or so ... guests who typically book deluxe or suite level accomodations ... and guests who intend on making Disney a resort destination for as long as circumstances allow.

It is really not suited for the "We're only in our room to sleep ... it's just my wife and I ... we normally stay at Pop Century because we're park warriors and don't care about our room ... and we go once every two or three years ... " folks.

And one thing that doesn't get brought up enough in the financial analysis is the lost opportunity cost on the money you invest in DVC. Yes, you may have paid $15,000 for your membership and gotten $30,000 in rooms back for that money (using one PP's numbers), but you have to factor out how much you could have earned in interest or investment income on that $15,000. That's a very important piece of the puzzle.

I would honestly love to see someone put together a detailed financial analysis of DVC vs. non-DVC over a 50 year contract life and see if it actually pays off. Someone with a solid economics and statistics background could probably do it fairly easily.