cheating in new england

[Ian]

Everyone tries to steal signals, yes. That's not against the rules.

But as far as I know, I haven't heard ANYONE say that they know that other teams use video and audio equipment to do it, which is clearly against the rules.

I flat out refuse to believe that anyone would call someone out for cheating in a way that they, themselves, were also using. It's ridiculous.

Also, I think it's very telling that almost every NFL pundit and unnamed source that's spoken on the issue has expressed shock and disappointment that Belichek wasn't suspended.

Honestly, at first my feelings were sort of, "Eh, who cares?" but the more I learn about it and the more I think on it, it's really starting to bother me quite a bit.

Also, now there are new allegations coming out of New York that the Patriots illegally micced their defensive lineman to pick up the Jets' audibles and offensive line calls and recorded those on a second camera.

To me, this looks like Belichek had a very comprehensive and complex system in place to cheat.

[darthmacho]

Mangini left the Pats to take a head coaching job, Belichek did not "bid him farewell" as you say. In fact, Belichek is the one holding a grudge against Mangini for leaving to go to a division rival in the first place.

I'm sorry, but you seem to have a very skewed perspective of reality here. The Pats DID cheat ... it DID affect the outcome of their games (otherwise they never would have done it in the first place, knowing it was against the rules), everyone else is NOT doing it, and it WILL taint the legacy of Belichek and the Pats (as it should).

I'm not commenting on what you said to defend what Belichik did, but I have 3 things to add to what you are saying here that I feel are relevent that might or might not conflict with your point of view. In either case, I don't mean it as a personal attack against you or your viewpoint.

1. Although Belichik's system appears to be more elaborate and sophisticated, my gut feeling is that other teams do similar things in order to get an edge. Madden admitted in last night's commentary that he engaged in such practices when he was a coach. Obviously, Belicheck got way too arrogant, and decided to take this practice to the extreme. He, and his peers, were warned to stop, and he clearly did not. That was very arrogant, it was wrong, and now the team will pay.

2. If the legacy of the Patriots is tainted, then so is the career of Eric Mangini. He may have left for a better job that was offered to him, but he would never have been offered that job if the Patriots were not so successful. He must have been okay with the cheating so long as it advanced his career. To me, Eric "Boy"gini is a hypocrite.

3. I think the Patriots proved last night that they are a good team and can beat the best without cheating. I hope this continues to be true.

[Scar]

2. If the legacy of the Patriots is tainted, then so is the career of Eric Mangini. He may have left for a better job that was offered to him, but he would never have been offered that job if the Patriots were not so successful. He must have been okay with the cheating so long as it advanced his career. To me, Eric "Boy"gini is a hypocrite.

Mangini was a defensive coach for the Patriots. How could stealing the other team’s defensive signals help him? Unless of course you are insinuating that the Patriots were also stealing offensive signals, which would pretty much mean they were tapping into the other team’s wireless communications.

And how is he being a hypocrite? I haven’t heard him say one thing about this.

[Ian]

No offense taken, Mr. Macho. I'm used to people disagreeing with me.

My opinion on Mangini is ... too early to tell. My initial reaction is to say that he probably wasn't involved, since (as Scar points out) they were stealing defensive signals not offensive signals. It's entirely possible that Mangini was completely unaware of what was going on.

Doubtful, but possible ...

[darthmacho]

Mangini was a defensive coach for the Patriots. How could stealing the other team’s defensive signals help him? Unless of course you are insinuating that the Patriots were also stealing offensive signals, which would pretty much mean they were tapping into the other team’s wireless communications.

And how is he being a hypocrite? I haven’t heard him say one thing about this.

Eric Mangini was the one to open this whole can of worms, and perhaps it was best for the NFL that he did, However, although he (his unit) might not have been directly benefitting from the video taping, the success of the Patriots benefitted him greatly.

What I am saying is that if the success of the Patriots is tainted, so is his, because he was a part of that team. That same success got him his job with the Jets. Suddenly when the cheating is working against him, he thinks it is wrong? That is hypocritical.

Again, I'm not defending the wrongdoing, just pointing out that Eric Mangini should get off his high horse and remember that he was wallowing in that same mud once too. I can't prove it, but chance are he was able to recognize the guy doing the taping, perhaps he had seen him before? Could that have been the times when they were on the same sideline?

I don't mean this argument as a personal attack on your point of view Scar, I'm just clarifying what I had stated previously, which you questioned, perhaps since I didn't make my statement entirely clear.

[Scar]

I don't mean this argument as a personal attack on your point of view Scar,...

I know, those darn moderator alerts, they're ruining this forum.

Two points:

1.) I don’t think you can automatically say that Mangini got the job because of the Patriots success as a whole. There are many cases of coordinators getting head coaching jobs because their unit was successful, not the team as a whole.

2.) We don’t know what Mangini’s level of involvement, if any, was in Belichick’s scheme. For all we know, maybe he told Belichick he shouldn’t be doing it. We also don’t know what his involvement was last week. We know the Packers reported it to the NFL last year, maybe the NFL told the Jets to be on the lookout for it.

By the way, I’m not a Jets fan. I just don’t think it’s fair to be bashing Mangini when we don’t know all the facts. Well, except for the fact that that Belichick was cheating.

Oh, and I also want to repeat what I said in my first post that it probably shouldn’t be illegal in the first place.

[Jasper]

You know what really bothers me the most about all this? Several people here and in the media have either said or implied that "if you are not cheating, you are not trying."

What kind of society have we built when this becomes so commonly accepted as a way of life? I for one think that the penalty is nothing more than a slap on the wrist and should be much more severe.

And don't think that I say that just because it was a football incident, I also said the same thing about NASCAR, Baseball, Cycling, and other places when cheating has happened. Until the "stars" of these sports are either removed from the sport or in some other way are penalized in a drastic way then we are going to continue to see these issues.

[battlefield2freak]

You know what really bothers me the most about all this? Several people here and in the media have either said or implied that "if you are not cheating, you are not trying."

What kind of society have we built when this becomes so commonly accepted as a way of life? I for one think that the penalty is nothing more than a slap on the wrist and should be much more severe.

And don't think that I say that just because it was a football incident, I also said the same thing about NASCAR, Baseball, Cycling, and other places when cheating has happened. Until the "stars" of these sports are either removed from the sport or in some other way are penalized in a drastic way then we are going to continue to see these issues.

the reason you are seeing ppl sayin "if youur not cheating your not trying is because ladainian tolinson said that about patriots in a interview before the NE vs SD game sunday. he meant it as a joke though.

just to say something now its teh jets under fire about cheating. this is the news article i just read on the NFL site:

Billick: Jets 'illegally' simulated snap count on Sunday

Associated Press

OWINGS MILLS, Md. - Ravens coach Brian Billick accused the New York Jets of using an "illegal" ploy to draw Baltimore offside during Sunday's game.

Billick said Monday that the Jets' defense shouted out signals to intentionally throw off the Baltimore offense. Billick claimed the tactic led to the three illegal procedure penalties against the Ravens.

"They did an outstanding job. I credit the New York Jets. Their defensive line and linebackers did a very, very effective job of illegally simulating the snap count," Billick said. "They did it the whole game long. It needs to be caught."

Tackle Adam Terry bolted offside in the first and third quarters. Tight end Quinn Sypniewski jumped in the first quarter.

"That's not an excuse by any stretch of the imagination. But it is illegal," Billick said. "Our guys have to deal with it. I don't know how to help my linemen with that because, you're in the heat of battle and you're calling the snap count, and the guy across from you is also calling a snap count - which is illegal."

The Ravens won the game 20-13. Baltimore took a 20-3 lead into the fourth quarter but nearly wilted under a comeback by the Jets, who benefited from four fourth-quarter penalties against Baltimore.

For the game, New York received two penalties for 10 yards and the Ravens were penalized 11 times for 100 yards.

"You have to look at the nature of the penalties. First off, the fact that we had 11 penalties and they only had two and we dominated the game," Billick said. "I have a hard time understanding that the team that was playing so well and dominating had so many penalties and the other team had only two."

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved

makes you wonder with the fact they had 2 penalties for 10 yards and ravens with 11 for 100 yds. seems the jets may be up to something aswell

[Scar]

1. This definitely should not be illegal.

2. If it is, why weren’t the refs calling it?

3. As evidenced by the final score, I see it really helped.

What's next, make the crowd quiet down like in tennis?

[battlefield2freak]

i wasnt watching this game so i cant comment on it but the penalties figures jump out at me the most. im just curious what the figures were before halftime. also i havent read up on the rules for a while so i wouldnt know if this is illegal or not but it sounds to me that it would be. to me the plkayers get the biggst influence from the fans cheering them on so more than likely they wont make them be quiet but i get your point.

[Epc0tphr34k]

read this morning on the ticker on nfl network that the patriots are being forced to turn in tapes from as far back as 2000.

[battlefield2freak]

that has been up on the nfl site for about 3 days now. they said they are compling with the nfl in their search by handing over any notes, tapes etc. they may have taken.

[FatherForce]

Love the PAtriots or hate them, Bill Belicheck and the Patriot organization have never been known for the adherance to the rules or even class.

It has been common knowledge that the Patriots will do anything to win, like shutting off opponents headsets, coming out and clearing snow off of just their kicker's area, abusing the secondary rules so much that new rules had to be put into place, etc.

If you're a Patriots fan, good for you, and I understand rooting for a winner, but don't ever pretend you have the sportsmanship high ground.

[diz_girl]

I know that I'm drudging this topic back up, but here's my

I agree with whichever Philadelphia Eagle (Jevon Kearse? Jeremiah Trotter ? - I know that it begins with a J.) said that they wonder if they were cheated out of a Superbowl ring because of this kind of cheating. Yes, I'm still sore about that loss - and the loss to the Raiders too. I wouldn't be surprised if a fan of any team that lost a Superbowl, AFC Championship game or other playoff game to the Pats felt the same way. If this was mentioned in a previous post, sorry for the repetition.

[Donald A]

Love the PAtriots or hate them, Bill Belicheck and the Patriot organization have never been known for the adherance to the rules or even class.

It has been common knowledge that the Patriots will do anything to win, like shutting off opponents headsets, coming out and clearing snow off of just their kicker's area, abusing the secondary rules so much that new rules had to be put into place, etc.

If you're a Patriots fan, good for you, and I understand rooting for a winner, but don't ever pretend you have the sportsmanship high ground.

My Browns played the Patriots last Sunday and obviously got beat or cheated against (Who knows, really). The organization just lacks any class at all. I am not a sore loser, but I just think about the play where Mike Vrabel came across the line and almost knocked our QB out on a spiked play to stop the clock where he knew Cleveland would spike the ball. This is me, who in the 3rd grade sat next to Mike Vrabel in Sunday School class, complaining about a fellow NE Ohioan. However, for Vrabel to not comment except to say he didn't hear the whistle is absurd. If he doesn't know that the Browns are in the situation and will spike the ball, he shouldn't be playing.

This is just another example how this team operates from the top down. I have no respect for this organization that plays dirty and are proven cheaters.

[battlefield2freak]

My Browns played the Patriots last Sunday and obviously got beat or cheated against (Who knows, really). The organization just lacks any class at all. I am not a sore loser, but I just think about the play where Mike Vrabel came across the line and almost knocked our QB out on a spiked play to stop the clock where he knew Cleveland would spike the ball. This is me, who in the 3rd grade sat next to Mike Vrabel in Sunday School class, complaining about a fellow NE Ohioan. However, for Vrabel to not comment except to say he didn't hear the whistle is absurd. If he doesn't know that the Browns are in the situation and will spike the ball, he shouldn't be playing.

This is just another example how this team operates from the top down. I have no respect for this organization that plays dirty and are proven cheaters.

no you got beat by the beatter team and this is really getting irratating to see all the ppl who think they know why the patriots can win so many games. tonights win at dallas proves the patriots dont need ot cheat to beat big teams like the cowboys. and not to make you mad but cleveland doesnt play football as hard as they should if they did they would have won the game against the patriots probably but they dont have alot of talent. dont get mad just because the patriots have some of the best talent in the league and that they know how ot get it done without cheating. and its like none of the other NFL teams have ever been caught cheating but once the patriots are caught its the worst thing that ever happened and everyone gets mad over nothing.

[WDWfanatic742]

Guys and Gals, no reason to make any of this personal and directed at someone