Casino operators take on Disney in Florida battle over tourists

[mickclub1955]

This was in my local paper this morning and I thought it was interesting.



By TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA

Bloomberg NewsFebruary 5, 2014


TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- To bring Las Vegas-style gambling to Florida, casino operators like Sheldon Adelson are sending more than 100 lobbyists to the Capitol to battle their biggest adversary: Mickey Mouse.

The clash pits casino operators Genting and Las Vegas Sands, controlled by billionaire Sheldon Adelson, against Walt Disney Co., which runs theme parks and resorts near Orlando, and may face new competition for convention business. Companies on both sides of the dispute are sending lobbyists and campaign checks to Florida lawmakers, who say they'll consider expanding gambling this year.

A state-commissioned study found that full-service casinos and their associated hotels could generate $1.5 billion in spending annually in Florida, making the fourth-most populous state an attractive target for the gambling industry as it pushes to expand in the U.S. The outcome is critical for Disney, as the world's largest entertainment company seeks to protect its Walt Disney World Resort, which includes theme parks and five convention facilities.

"Gambling interests in Las Vegas and Atlantic City are looking for new territory, and opening Florida to them would be tremendous," said

Robert Jarvis, who teaches gambling law at Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale. "The fear for Disney is that instead of people going to Disney and dropping their disposable income there, they'll go to the destination casinos and drop their money there."

Florida law limits gambling to eight Indian casinos, which offer Las Vegas-style gambling with the exception of craps and roulette, along with 31 pari-mutuel facilities. Casino operators want lawmakers to authorize as many as three resorts in South Florida that would offer the same range of games as in Las Vegas.

Casino resorts -- which feature hotels, meeting space, gambling and other entertainment -- would compete with Burbank, Calif.-based Disney for tourists and conventions, Jarvis said.

Disney has 700,000 square feet of meeting space in its Florida resorts, according to the company's website. Genting said in 2012 it wanted to build the world's largest casino in Miami with 750,000 square feet of meeting space.

Genting's allies include Associated Industries of Florida, a business trade group that on Jan. 15 unveiled a new website and marketing campaign touting casino resorts as a "huge magnet for convention and trades shows." Lobbyists for casino operators say an expansion will bring jobs and tourists and boost the economy.

Disney argues gambling would hurt the state.

"The massive expansion of gambling that would come from legalizing mega-casinos would be a bad bet for Florida's taxpayers, tourism brand and existing businesses," said Andrea Finger, a Disney spokeswoman, in a statement.

[1DisneyNut]

I am all for it. Large casinos with upscale resorts and restaurants would bring much needed competition. WDW needs some serious competition to force the corporate suits to move their focus back to customer satisfaction.

[Dsnygirl]

I'm with 1DisneyNut... I can't see Disney raising their prices if numbers fall b/c people split their $$ for a new experience... instead, I see them having to compete with LasVegas type hotel prices... Universal would have to compete, as well... might be good for the consumer. We'll see... not a professional in this area, so just my :twocents:... :blush:

[MNNHFLTX]

It should be up to residents/voters in Florida as to whether expanding the casino industry there is a good idea. My first thought was that a 750,000 sq. ft. casino certainly would not help the traffic situation in Miami.

[AgentC]

As someone who lives here I find it interesting that the out of state coverage is making this a battle between Disney and gambling. Most of the local articles barely mention Disney and more concerned with fixing the loop holes in the state gambling laws and how it would affect the agreement the state already has with the Seminoles. Put that together with the fact that the state shut down "internet cafes" last year which include a scandal where the Lt. Governor had to resign due to her ties with one of the companies being investigated plus it is an election year and you come up with a very complicated situation.

[Scar]

Disney argues gambling would hurt the state.

"The massive expansion of gambling that would come from legalizing mega-casinos would be a bad bet for Florida's taxpayers, tourism brand and existing businesses," said Andrea Finger, a Disney spokeswoman, in a statement.Why?

[DizneyFreak2002]

Why?
Because Disney is already losing market share to Universal... They would lose more if casinos move into the area...

[Scar]

Because Disney is already losing market share to Universal... They would lose more if casinos move into the area...I understand why it's bad for Disney, but why is it... "a bad bet for Florida's taxpayers, tourism brand and existing businesses."

[DizneyFreak2002]

I understand why it's bad for Disney, but why is it... "a bad bet for Florida's taxpayers, tourism brand and existing businesses."

It's not... Disney is just spinning nonsense cause they are already shaking in their boots... In Orlando anyway.. :)

I'm sure the checks are being cut as we type this to their high priced lobbyists... People will be getting rich during and after this fight...

[Ian]

I think the residents of Florida should ultimately decide if they want this or not, but put me in the camp of "more competition is needed for Disney."

[Hammer]

As someone who lives here I find it interesting that the out of state coverage is making this a battle between Disney and gambling. Most of the local articles barely mention Disney and more concerned with fixing the loop holes in the state gambling laws and how it would affect the agreement the state already has with the Seminoles. Put that together with the fact that the state shut down "internet cafes" last year which include a scandal where the Lt. Governor had to resign due to her ties with one of the companies being investigated plus it is an election year and you come up with a very complicated situation.

Yes, this situation is not as simplistic as out of state papers make it out to be. This will take away not just from Disney, but from all of the Florida theme parks. You just hear about Disney because it is the largest. NONE of these corporations are happy about this. I could see where a couple says "let's drop the kids at the kids' club and we go out to dinner and gambling at XYZ casino instead of going to Emeril's at Citywalk".

For the once a year trip we make to the casinos, Mom would like if they got "real" casinos in Florida as she likes to play roulette. I think she would vote for it. Currently, she gets her yearly fix when she visits us in NJ and we go to AC.

[MississippiDisneyFreak]

I'm thinking it wouldn't necessarily hurt theme park ticket sales, but might put a hurting on the resort revenues and restaurants. If mom and dad get to stay in an upscale hotel for $99 a night with perks like discounted or free buffets, why pay Disney $300-$500 a night to stay there. I'm sure the casinos will be more than happy to run shuttles to the theme parks for their guests' convenience. Yep it may run prices down, could be a good thing:confused:

[Altair]

Within a year there would be a casino on Disney property. Don't kid yourselves. :sick:

[AgentC]

Just to be clear, the casinos that are being proposed are in only South Florida right now- Miami Dade and Broward. Anything outside those two counties is extremely unlikely without significant changes to the Seminole contract which gives them exclusive rights to "Las Vegas style" gambling outside those two counties

The speaker of the FL House has said that if the House agrees (the bill is Senate based) do approve it, he wants a constitutional amendment preventing any further expansion of gambling without a statewide voter referendum.
This is a crazy state and I'm sure they'll be a lot more conversation leading up to November.

[VWL Mom]

Just to be clear, the casinos that are being proposed are in only South Florida right now- Miami Dade and Broward. Anything outside those two counties is extremely unlikely without significant changes to the Seminole contract which gives them exclusive rights to "Las Vegas style" gambling outside those two counties

The speaker of the FL House has said that if the House agrees (the bill is Senate based) do approve it, he wants a constitutional amendment preventing any further expansion of gambling without a statewide voter referendum.
This is a crazy state and I'm sure they'll be a lot more conversation leading up to November.

Thanks Cindy :thumbsup:

[Hammer]

Just to be clear, the casinos that are being proposed are in only South Florida right now- Miami Dade and Broward. Anything outside those two counties is extremely unlikely without significant changes to the Seminole contract which gives them exclusive rights to "Las Vegas style" gambling outside those two counties

The speaker of the FL House has said that if the House agrees (the bill is Senate based) do approve it, he wants a constitutional amendment preventing any further expansion of gambling without a statewide voter referendum.
This is a crazy state and I'm sure they'll be a lot more conversation leading up to November.

Thanks for clarifying, Cindy! My scenario was more long term forecasting, but a lot of other things have to fall into place for it to happen. I have always thought the deal the state of Florida has with the Seminole nation is horrendous. My parents went once to the Seminole Hard Rock outside of Tampa and hated it. Mom will stick to NJ and go to a real casino :) .

[Arielfan98]

Well if Disney got their act together and re-instituted another pleasure island they might not have to worry about a casino threat

[Gator]

I'm thinking that the Disney spokesperson is right. When people think of coming to Florida on vacation, they think of "family friendly" vacations. That is what Florida attracts and it ought to stay that way. You open up casinos, then you put out the welcome mat for the filth of the galaxy to show up once a year, or even move there.

I live next to NV and go there for conventions for business. Even the "clean" casinos are most definitely not family friendly. As for Disney getting competition, puh-leeeeeze. The next resort they build will be the "all adult" resort, complete with casino, uber-bars, and Marvel showgirls. I say keep that trash in Jersey and Neveda.

[DizneyFreak2002]

I say keep that trash in Jersey and Neveda.

Trash, really? If it weren't for trash, MK wouldn't see 18 million visitors... If trash were to keep out of Florida, there goes half of WDW's attendance....

BTW Florida already HAS casinos... or maybe you didn't know that... There goes your family friendly nonsense... It is that illogical thinking that got Pleasure Island shut down...

[TinkerbellT421]

I say keep that trash in Jersey and Neveda.

I found this sentence to be greatly unnecessary.

You are basically insinuating that anyone that gambles are trash. Rude. If you are against gambling for your personally belief, fine. No reason to slap other people in the face that may enjoy a date night out once in a while and spend THEIR money the way they want to.

Now, back on topic. Personally, I think it is a good idea. For a state that just put their own first "real" casino this year, it has done big things in a short time for the state money wise. And chalk me up in the category of "anything that puts some umph" into Disney heals to step up their game (no pun intended ;) )

[Terra]

I think I may be the only one that sees this an apples to oranges comparison.

Personally I don't care for gambling/casinos [not for any moral reason, Just not something I like to blow my money on].

I want good clean fun that I can take my family too so the casino scene doesn't appeal to me.

I think the two things are on different spectrums and I don't think Disney will be too hurt by.

And hey if more people do choose casino, then that means less crowded parks for me.

[MNNHFLTX]

I'm thinking that the Disney spokesperson is right. When people think of coming to Florida on vacation, they think of "family friendly" vacations. That is what Florida attracts and it ought to stay that way. You open up casinos, then you put out the welcome mat for the filth of the galaxy to show up once a year, or even move there.
I think a 5th of the galaxy already goes to Florida--either in the winter to visit or live parttime (snowbirds!) or to visit Disney World. Personally I don't think a casino will change the numbers, just redistribute where they go somewhat.

[AgentC]

I think a 5th of the galaxy already goes to Florida--either in the winter to visit or live parttime (snowbirds!) or to visit Disney World. Personally I don't think a casino will change the numbers, just redistribute where they go somewhat.

So true Beth! I went to local flea market last weekend and was amazed that the parking lot was almost full and then I remember the snowbirds haven't gone home yet. :D

I haven't thought a lot about casinos and whether I'd support more or not but Florida is a big state. It's more than just Central FL. There's room for all types of people and all types of vacations. :)

[TheVBs]

I agree with Terra, this seems apples to oranges. It's kind of hard to imagine a family considering packing up the kids and spending time together in Disney World would say, hey, let's go to a casino instead. Those are two drastically different types of vacations. If someone enjoys a casino trip, they already have other options and are likely choosing them for at least part of their vacation spending. And, yes, this is something Florida residents should decide on.

[1DisneyNut]

I agree with Terra, this seems apples to oranges. It's kind of hard to imagine a family considering packing up the kids and spending time together in Disney World would say, hey, let's go to a casino instead. Those are two drastically different types of vacations. If someone enjoys a casino trip, they already have other options and are likely choosing them for at least part of their vacation spending. And, yes, this is something Florida residents should decide on.

Do you realize how many adults go to WDW without children as well as how many "local" Florida residents.

Even those with children I think would consider staying at Casino resorts for their lower prices, dining options and live shows and just visit WDW during the day. I know I would. I have no doubt this would give some serious direct competition to the WDW resorts.

Then you have all of the convention groups. WDW has a ton of convention business and Casinos would no doubt have a very big impact on that market segment.

Disney is concerned and releasing PR statements regarding this for a reason.......They are worried about the competition.

[mdricks]

The stated reason for Disney opposition is in the article

"may face new competition for convention business."

I know how important convention business is but is there really a ceo/meeting committee out there right now sitting around saying,

"I guess Disney is our only choice.... Too bad there’s not a casino!"

It seems to me Disney is a niche market for conventions. An organization willing to consider a casino venue doesn’t seem to be synergistic with a potential Disney trip.

Just my 2cents.

:number1:

[JerseyDad]

.....as we're aware ....Disney has no gambling on it's cruise ships. This allows for more rooms (cabins) ....and that's fine. They are HIGH priced cabins I may add.

....we went on ONE Disney cruise ...on the Wonder in 2008 ....with several families. The cruise was great ...service was great ....it was my first cruise and it likely spoiled me. But ...90% of the other families told me that ...while they like the cruise ...they'd never do it again ...because there was no casino / gambling.

....and "family vacation" ...is NOT all about the kiddies ...the adults need to have a good time too.

....our next cruise was on Carnival ...which of course was a third of the cost ...which was clearly off-set by the gambling. And it seemed that the adults were more "into" the vacation experience ...because they got to have fun too.

....so ...gambling may ....or may not hurt WDW ...with the addition of casinos. It may entice more people to go to Fla ...and to WDW ...because there may be more of a variety of activities to please all involved.

.....as noted by 1DisneyNut ...Disney is scared out of their big yello Mickey shoes ....by the prospect of competition. Which may ...heaven forbid ....make them "up their game".

[TheVBs]

DisneyNut and JerseyDad, I can definitely see what you're saying. But, even with an adults only or locals trip, WDW and a casino are still two drastically different destinations. It still seems apples to oranges to me. And as mdricks pointed out, there are already a huge number of hotels nearby with competitive prices for conventions and people visiting WDW who are willing to stay off site.

But, I can't pretend I completely understand all the dynamics of the situation. The above is just what seems logical to me. And, hey, if casinos are something Florida residents want and it inspires Disney to offer a few more discounts, I will happily accept those discounts and continue to stay on site! :mickey:

[Melanie]

There has been a Hard Rock casino just one hour from WDW in Tampa for years. What am I missing here? I haven't read all these articles, but isn't this just suggesting a few casinos in south Florida, at least for the time being?

[Terra]

Do you realize how many adults go to WDW without children as well as how many "local" Florida residents.

Even those with children I think would consider staying at Casino resorts for their lower prices, dining options and live shows and just visit WDW during the day. I know I would. I have no doubt this would give some serious direct competition to the WDW resorts.

Then you have all of the convention groups. WDW has a ton of convention business and Casinos would no doubt have a very big impact on that market segment.

Disney is concerned and releasing PR statements regarding this for a reason.......They are worried about the competition.
As a Florida resident who went to WDW all the time PRE children, and now post children...why yes we do realize that. We aren't stupid.

Sure some will pick a "cheaper" casino. Go for it. Others will pick Disney. Go for it.
I personally would choose Disney just because I still wouldn't like the atmosphere. And there will be people with NO children doing that too.

Plus there are many people who stay off property on 192 as well. I know I do because it IS cheaper. And we have a favorite hotel there that we go too on our weekend trips.

Trust me, it's still not hurting Disney. It frees up more money to spend in the parks.

[AgentC]

There has been a Hard Rock casino just one hour from WDW in Tampa for years. What am I missing here? I haven't read all these articles, but isn't this just suggesting a few casinos in south Florida, at least for the time being?

Yes, and there is also a Hard Rock in Hollywood as well as 6 non hotel Seminole casino as well as multiple other gambling venues. In fact the proponents of the new casino state Florida is the 4th largest gaming state.

What they want is to

build new casinos in Miami-Dade/Broward Counties that are "intergrated" which mean hotel, convention, dining, retail and casino in one facility
Take away exclusive rights to the blackjack and other casino style table games from the Seminoles
Legalized roulette and craps which are currently illegal in FL


At least that is what I have gotten from reading the local coverage.

[Terra]

Though admittedly the one thing I would hope comes from it is that Disney lowers their Value Resort prices because they are not value priced IMHO :blush:

[Hammer]

There has been a Hard Rock casino just one hour from WDW in Tampa for years. What am I missing here? I haven't read all these articles, but isn't this just suggesting a few casinos in south Florida, at least for the time being?


Yes, and there is also a Hard Rock in Hollywood as well as 6 non hotel Seminole casino as well as multiple other gambling venues. In fact the proponents of the new casino state Florida is the 4th largest gaming state.

What they want is to

build new casinos in Miami-Dade/Broward Counties that are "intergrated" which mean hotel, convention, dining, retail and casino in one facility
Take away exclusive rights to the blackjack and other casino style table games from the Seminoles
Legalized roulette and craps which are currently illegal in FL


At least that is what I have gotten from reading the local coverage.

Cindy, that's what I understand as well reading the Tampa news sites. The last 2 points I think are the key issues. I know my parents (now just Mom) missed roulette as that is the table game of choice in our family. I think the second point is the biggest issue; doing away with the exclusive rights given to the Seminoles. I think it should be placed to a vote, but there are a lot of things involved, including $1 billion that the Seminoles pay to the state for exclusive rights.

[RunDMV]

I am for anything that "checks" WDW.

[DryCreek]

say keep that trash in Jersey and Neveda.


I found this sentence to be greatly unnecessary.

You are basically insinuating that anyone that gambles are trash.

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth - but what if Gator was referring NOT to the visitors coming to gamble, but instead to the types of undesirables that tend to migrate to areas where the casinos are. I am referring to those who only work nights and cater to the more baser desires of casino convention revelers (think prostitutes, pushers, pickpockets, etc.).

At least that is how I interpreted the statement. I know that the crime demographics change when casinos move into an area. If I was a resident I would be concerned about those changes.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth - but what if Gator was referring NOT to the visitors coming to gamble, but instead to the types of undesirables that tend to migrate to areas where the casinos are. I am referring to those who only work nights and cater to the more baser desires of casino convention revelers (think prostitutes, pushers, pickpockets, etc.).

At least that is how I interpreted the statement. I know that the crime demographics change when casinos move into an area. If I was a resident I would be concerned about those changes.

Come here... a little closer.. I want to whisper a secret to you... Those "undesirables" you talk about... They are already there... Has nothing to do with casinos...

You don't think pickpockets will flock to any area where tourists are? Knowing there are thousands of people there on any given day, just waiting to have their money stolen? They are already on WDW property at any given time of any given day...

Drug pushers and prostitutes? Well, look no further than Orange Blossom Trail... If you ever get the urge to go see the sites out of the WDW bubble, you'd be amazed at what you see just a few miles away, on OBT... and last I knew, OBT did not have any casinos...

So, no, those undesirables are not going to suddenly appear because of a casino in Orlando... Those undesirables are already there...

[TinkerbellT421]

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth - but what if Gator was referring NOT to the visitors coming to gamble, but instead to the types of undesirables that tend to migrate to areas where the casinos are. I am referring to those who only work nights and cater to the more baser desires of casino convention revelers (think prostitutes, pushers, pickpockets, etc.).

At least that is how I interpreted the statement. I know that the crime demographics change when casinos move into an area. If I was a resident I would be concerned about those changes.

The entire post and then ending it in that sentence told the story in which he was getting at. And trust me, it takes A LOT for me to be offended, you should hear some of the stuff I say outside of this board....so if I was taken aback by it, then it was the entire context not just that one sentence. He was calling Casinos as a whole, trash, which include the players. No way around it. But I am not going to argue semantics about it.


Come here... a little closer.. I want to whisper a secret to you... Those "undesirables" you talk about... They are already there... Has nothing to do with casinos...

You don't think pickpockets will flock to any area where tourists are? Knowing there are thousands of people there on any given day, just waiting to have their money stolen? They are already on WDW property at any given time of any given day...

Drug pushers and prostitutes? Well, look no further than Orange Blossom Trail... If you ever get the urge to go see the sites out of the WDW bubble, you'd be amazed at what you see just a few miles away, on OBT... and last I knew, OBT did not have any casinos...

So, no, those undesirables are not going to suddenly appear because of a casino in Orlando... Those undesirables are already there...

This. Exactly.

[The Phantom]

Why is there an assumption that competition from a large casino resort would result in lower prices for WDW accommodations? Orlando isn't Vegas; there would likely be only one gambling property within a reasonable distance, and as such the operator would have no reason to discount. Excalibur is only $40 a night because there are 150,000 other rooms at gambling properties for people to choose from; by contrast MGM Grand Detroit is consistently $400+ a night year round. The odds of there being any measureable pressure is extremely low, and there might end up being some additional traffic from adults who would like to visit Disney but want some attractions just for themselves.

Got laugh out of the 'undesirables' comment; real life isn't SimCity 2000... crime does not increase when you legalize gambling.

[Quadstriker]

My wife and I have both made our careers in the gaming industry for many years.

I always get a kick out of the very slim but always very vocal minority segment of the population who tries to run "undesirables" and "won't someone think of the children" up the flagpole whenever a new area is looking into casino operation. Whoever said "This isn't SimCity 2000" hit the nail on the head.

Have a look at a map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling_in_the_United_States

Don't want this to turn into a Gaming vs. Anti-Gaming debate, but to imply that a few state operated casino resorts in Florida would be some sort of doom and gloom button for "The Magics" at WDW in any way is laughable.

WDW needs more competition on all fronts. Their laurels are getting worn out over there from all their use and they won't change until they smash headfirst into a brick wall.

[DryCreek]

Come here... a little closer.. I want to whisper a secret to you... Those "undesirables" you talk about... They are already there... Has nothing to do with casinos...

Oh, I don't doubt that for one minute. You may not know it, but there used to be a U.S. Naval Training Center there. I went to bootcamp there (Company C-173, July 1980) and then for a liaison tour (about four months) before we classed up for NNPS (Class 8104). I know all about the "fun" places on SOBT and out towards the Beeline Expressway. All of the "fun" a sailor could want was there for your picking. I know, I lived it. That still doesn't change the way I interpreted Gator's post. I didn't want to think that just because a person decided to visit a casino that they would suddenly enter the realm of the under class. heck, I know exactly how hard it is to work your way down there. You don't get there just by stepping foot into a certain place.
Now, where will I get my next '84 Camaro for the side yard ornament?