x pass?

[gratuspater]

What is this x pass system I'm hearing about?
Or updates to the fast pass system?

[Melanie]

I'm actually seeing some buzz about Disney recently testing in some spots how Fastpass was originally intended to work - guests actually having to return during the hour window on their FP. Also reports are indicating that CMs are no longer advising guests that the return times are open-ended, like they have in the past.

[BrerGnat]

I'm actually seeing some buzz about Disney recently testing in some spots how Fastpass was originally intended to work - guests actually having to return during the hour window on their FP. Also reports are indicating that CMs are no longer advising guests that the return times are open-ended, like they have in the past.

Oh no...we used to always return "late". Although, I understand why they might want to enforce the window. However, how can they account for lateness that is not the guest's fault? Like, ride breakdowns, or longer than posted waits at other rides, longer than usual lines at food/merchandise spots, etc.? Isn't that why the return time is open ended?

[gratuspater]

I'm actually seeing some buzz about Disney recently testing in some spots how Fastpass was originally intended to work - guests actually having to return during the hour window on their FP. Also reports are indicating that CMs are no longer advising guests that the return times are open-ended, like they have in the past.

I've basically heard the same thing. I never knew you could show up late and still use your fast pass, but it only seems fair that if you are more than 15 min or so past your window,that the fast pass should expire. If I understand the system right, they only issue so many fast passes every day per fast pass attraction. It seems that if everyone was doing this, then both stand bye and fast pass lines could take longer.

[Melanie]

Oh no...we used to always return "late".

We always return 'late' as well. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Ian]

The one hour window has nothing to do with x-pass as far as I'm aware ... x-pass is the term I've heard used to refer to the "NextGen" iteration of FastPass where everything will be able to tie together and you'll have your dining reservations, ride reservations, character meet reservations, etc. all tied to one "x-pass."

[Melanie]

The one hour window has nothing to do with x-pass as far as I'm aware ... x-pass is the term I've heard used to refer to the "NextGen" iteration of FastPass where everything will be able to tie together and you'll have your dining reservations, ride reservations, character meet reservations, etc. all tied to one "x-pass."

Right, which is why they apparently are phasing in this change with the FP window now.

[B.O.B]

I didn't realize that they would let you ride if you didn't return within your window. Maybe that explains the FP line being as long or longer than the SB line sometimes.

[MickeysBestPal]

Maybe that explains the FP line being as long or longer than the SB line sometimes.

Nope.

[Goofy4TheWorld]

There is no way Disney is going to start enforcing the 1 hour window because doing so would fly in the face of Disney's "make the guest happy" approach. Disney would be faced with constant guest issues caused by Disney's ride breakdowns, failure to seat guests at ADR time, etc and would find it impossible to police this rule without constant bad blood (PS I am perfectly fine with folks being late for sleepy kids, sick kids, walked up on the Main Street Philharmonic and decided to watch it for the first time, etc., since this is a vacation).

But most importantly, they won't enforce this issue because they don't stand to make any money off of doing so.

Just my :twocents:

[buzznwoodysmom]

We are often "late returners" as well. We didn't find out that this was allowed until we got fastpasses that were at the same time as a dinner ADR. We asked a CM if we could switch out our fastpasses for a different time because of the ADR, this is when he explained that as long as you come back anytime after the time starts you can ride. I wonder if they do start enforcing the times will they allow late comers for this kind of situation, or will the guest just be out of luck if their fastpass is during an ADR??? Not that its the end of the world, LOL, but I could see some very unhappy folks at the fastpass entrance.

[tundramom]

We are often "late returners" as well. We didn't find out that this was allowed until we got fastpasses that were at the same time as a dinner ADR. We asked a CM if we could switch out our fastpasses for a different time because of the ADR, this is when he explained that as long as you come back anytime after the time starts you can ride. I wonder if they do start enforcing the times will they allow late comers for this kind of situation, or will the guest just be out of luck if their fastpass is during an ADR??? Not that its the end of the world, LOL, but I could see some very unhappy folks at the fastpass entrance.

The return time is posted above the machines..if it is during your ADR time just don't get one- we have run into this, or even the time was when we knew we would be at a completely opposite end of the park,we just opt to skip that particular FP and move on.

[VWL Mom]

The return time is posted above the machines..if it is during your ADR time just don't get one- we have run into this, or even the time was when we knew we would be at a completely opposite end of the park,we just opt to skip that particular FP and move on.

:ditto:

One option would be to extend the return window to 2 or 3 hours but then enforce it. Letting people return whenever is just leading to longer FP lines which leads to longer standby lines IMO. FP return line at RnRC was 40 minutes last week - defeats the purpose of having FP.

[buzznwoodysmom]

The return time is posted above the machines..if it is during your ADR time just don't get one- we have run into this, or even the time was when we knew we would be at a completely opposite end of the park,we just opt to skip that particular FP and move on.

Ok, didn't ever notice that! LOL. Have these times been posted from the very beginning of fastpass? Our incident with the fastpass at the time of our ADR was over 5 years ago. Not that it would make a difference for me since still to this day I had no idea these posted times existed. I guess I am in "lala" land when I'm in WDW!

[Goofy4TheWorld]

Ok, didn't ever notice that! LOL. Have these times been posted from the very beginning of fastpass? Our incident with the fastpass at the time of our ADR was over 5 years ago. Not that it would make a difference for me since still to this day I had no idea these posted times existed. I guess I am in "lala" land when I'm in WDW!

A great illustration of why unneccessarily enforcing this is a bad idea.

buzznwoodysmom has been a regular on Intercot for some time, which certifies her as a Disney nut, but yet she didn't know about the posted times. While I thought "WHAT!" when I first read this, it goes along with my feelings of "it's a vacation", and for most folks that means not over-thinking every minute of every day, EVEN if it is more efficient for Disney or other guests. We all know how the efficiency of ADR's has stressed many of us to "make our time" and I would hate for Fastpass to be the next victim.

To put it in Disney speak, Hakuna Matata!

[Melanie]

it goes along with my feelings of "it's a vacation", and for most folks that means not over-thinking every minute of every day, EVEN if it is more efficient for Disney or other guests. We all know how the efficiency of ADR's has stressed many of us to "make our time" and I would hate for Fastpass to be the next victim.

I totally agree with you, but unfortunately what little we know so far about this NextGen stuff seems to contradict this philosophy.

[texas211]

Yeah, When I got a Living w/ the Land Fastpass, they mentioned anytime afterwards as we were about to go ride Soarin, Eat Lunch, and take our scheduled restroom break.

[buzznwoodysmom]

buzznwoodysmom has been a regular on Intercot for some time, which certifies her as a Disney nut, but yet she didn't know about the posted times. While I thought "WHAT!" when I first read this, it goes along with my feelings of "it's a vacation", and for most folks that means not over-thinking every minute of every day,

You know I felt a little foolish admitting that I didn't know about the posted return times. In my 14 trips, and trust me we use the heck out of fastpass on every trip, I honestly never noticed that, and as far as I know my hubby, two kids, and my mom (who is often with us on our trips) have never noticed either. I guess I'm not paying close enough attention to what I'm doing. When I see threads about celebrity sightings I always think to myself that I could be standing right next to a celebrity and never even notice, because I often find myself so totally wrapped up in my kids and what we are doing. I guess this proves that I was right in thinking that. Makes me wonder what else I've been missing all these years! LOL.

[Ian]

I totally agree with you, but unfortunately what little we know so far about this NextGen stuff seems to contradict this philosophy.Which is precisely why, if this stupid "NextGen" garbage turns out to be half as bad as it sounds, my DVC's are going on the market and we'll be taking our vacations at the beach from now on.

I refuse to be forced to plan out every split-second of my vacation just to avoid being shut out of rides, character meet-and-greets, and restaurants ... you know, all the stuff I'm actually, well, there for? :mad:

[buzznwoodysmom]

Which is precisely why, if this stupid "NextGen" garbage turns out to be half as bad as it sounds, my DVC's are going on the market and we'll be taking our vacations at the beach from now on.

I refuse to be forced to plan out every split-second of my vacation just to avoid being shut out of rides, character meet-and-greets, and restaurants ... you know, all the stuff I'm actually, well, there for? :mad:

Ian, I agree 100%.

We are at a point now that even our ADRs seem like such a headache. I hate having to watch the clock to keep track of our next meal. If we have to have a complete schedule of meals, rides, character meets, then the trip becomes not at all enjoyable, and we'd rather spend our time and money elsewhere. I really hope it doesn't come to this.

[Melanie]

We are at a point now that even our ADRs seem like such a headache. I hate having to watch the clock to keep track of our next meal. If we have to have a complete schedule of meals, rides, character meets, then the trip becomes not at all enjoyable, and we'd rather spend our time and money elsewhere. I really hope it doesn't come to this.

Exactly! I'm so not a spreadsheet vacation kind of gal. :unsure:

I've caught myself recently poo-pooing some Disney announcements which have turned out to be great, so I'm going to TRY and reserve judgement on this until all the details come out. So far though - not impressed!

[gratuspater]

If they don't enforce the fast pass time window at least to a degree, then it kind of defeats the purpose of the system, doesn't it? And if there not going to enforce that rule, why should they enforce line cutting, or ADR, or EMH only for resort guests? We have more than once seen that we would not be able to use our fastpass on time, so we gave them away. I don't think someone should have to wait on me because I CHOOSE to go on another ride before using my fastpass. Disney cannot predict when a ride breaks down or how long people will sit at their dining tables, so some leaniency would be nice, 15 min., 30 min. max maybe. I think the fast pass was designed to make wait times more predictable, and efficient, and to allow people to plan better, but how can this happen when the time windows aren't followed? I can't say that I'm happy with some of the recent managerial decisions that are made at disney, but I think this one is just, fair. Because before we had fast pass, we were all waiting in the same "stand bye" line, and if I have to come back by the time my ticket says, well that's the rule and it sounds fair to me. Just my opinion.

[Kenny1113]

...I refuse to be forced to plan out every split-second of my vacation just to avoid being shut out of rides, character meet-and-greets, and restaurants ... you know, all the stuff I'm actually, well, there for? :mad:

:ditto:

Even the one or two dinner ADRs are a little too much for me. I like being flexible.

[MickeysBestPal]

If they don't enforce the fast pass time window at least to a degree, then it kind of defeats the purpose of the system, doesn't it?

Not a all.


And if there not going to enforce that rule, why should they enforce line cutting, or ADR, or EMH only for resort guests?

Line cutting is staunchly against the rules.
The FP window is not "enforced" by Disney design.
The FP system works just fine without enforcing the window.
ADR's are often honored later than their exact time.
PM EMH time can be open to all, it's just that non-WDW Resort guests cannot ride attractions during the EMH.
AM EMH, only WDW Resort guests can enter the park in the first hour.


We have more than once seen that we would not be able to use our fastpass on time, so we gave them away. I don't think someone should have to wait on me because I CHOOSE to go on another ride before using my fastpass.

Nobody would be "waiting on you" if you use your FP after the printed window.
In reality, you allowed many guests to "go ahead of you" during the earlier time that you did not ride during the printed window.


I think the fast pass was designed to make wait times more predictable, and efficient, and to allow people to plan better, but how can this happen when the time windows aren't followed?

The FP system works just fine without enforcing the window.
Disney created the FP and the FP rules.
As long as you don't use the FP "early" (before the window time) then it doesn't matter much when you choose to use it.
If you want to use the FP inside that window, you are free to do so...
just as are guests who choose to use the FP after the window (on the same day it was issued.)


I can't say that I'm happy with some of the recent managerial decisions that are made at disney, but I think this one is just, fair. Because before we had fast pass, we were all waiting in the same "stand bye" line, and if I have to come back by the time my ticket says, well that's the rule and it sounds fair to me.

It has not been that way since nearly the beginning of FP.
Anytime you used a FP, you were playing within the current rules.
If you liked FP, you liked the system that you are disparaging.


Just my opinion.

And, I've just spoken mine.

[gratuspater]

Not a all.



Line cutting is staunchly against the rules.
The FP window is not "enforced" by Disney design.
The FP system works just fine without enforcing the window.
ADR's are often honored later than their exact time.
PM EMH time can be open to all, it's just that non-WDW Resort guests cannot ride attractions during the EMH.
AM EMH, only WDW Resort guests can enter the park in the first hour.



Nobody would be "waiting on you" if you use your FP after the printed window.
In reality, you allowed many guests to "go ahead of you" during the earlier time that you did not ride during the printed window.



The FP system works just fine without enforcing the window.
Disney created the FP and the FP rules.
As long as you don't use the FP "early" (before the window time) then it doesn't matter much when you choose to use it.
If you want to use the FP inside that window, you are free to do so...
just as are guests who choose to use the FP after the window (on the same day it was issued.)



It has not been that way since nearly the beginning of FP.
Anytime you used a FP, you were playing within the current rules.
If you liked FP, you liked the system that you are disparaging.



And, I've just spoken mine.

Point was, I think fast pass designed to move the lines quicker, more efficient, and make times more predictable, I don't think there would be a window if that wasn't the case. Your right, if disney let's you come back late that's the parks right. But I don't see why anyone would get upset about haveing to come back within the time window, and LIKE I SAID, maybe a little later. And as you said the fast pass system started out adhering to the time window. And I didn't say that I didn't like fast pass, just that adhering to a reasonable time window seemed fair enough. :D

[Mousemates]

I refuse to be forced to plan out every split-second of my vacation just to avoid being shut out of rides, character meet-and-greets, and restaurants ... you know, all the stuff I'm actually, well, there for? :mad:

Us too...we actually used to do more table service meals than we do now...the whole ADR thing can really dominate the trip and take alot of the fun out things as you hurry to "get there."

If everything starts going "on the clock" then WDW will lose much of its appeal to us as well. One of the reasons I left public accounting all those years ago was having to track and bill my time at six minute intervals...if I have to start planning my disney vacations that precisely I'll opt for something that offers a bit more freedom.

[crltkcagle]

I agree the adr thing does dominate your trip. There was one year that we were having so much fun we said forget the dining reservations lets just grab something at Peco's instead. So we called and canceled our reservations and stayed in the park and had fun! I hope they don't do this xpass thing everyone is referring to. That will make my life way to complicated while on vacation!

[BigRedDad]

WDW is against enforcing any of their rules. The reason FP is broken is because people do not come back during the 1-hour window. If a CM can enforce the Start Time of the FP, then can surely enforce the End Time I literally had to wait 30 seconds for our FPs on KS. I looked at the guy like he was a leper. But he let someone in with one that was expired. I asked to speak to his manager.

The whole purpose of FP was to get you on an attraction in ~5 minutes or so. Now, FP lines can be 15-30 minutes or longer.

[Aurora]

It's easy for CMs to enforce the start time of the FPs without making anyone unhappy -- it's a lot harder to enforce the end time. (For example: Too early? You CAN use your pass at the time it says on the FP. Too late? You CAN'T use the pass at all.)

The company policy of CMs letting people in if they're late is completely different than people finding out online that you can use FPs anytime after the end time. I've even seen people advising other guests to use them on different days and to just tell the CM at the gate that the ride was down on the day they tried to use it. Because of the Internet, FPs have turned into open-ended pass times, which was never intended.

That said, regarding the NextGen stuff, PLEASE don't make me have to plan every blessed activity in order not to have to wait in endless lines. I don't want or need the stress before or during my vacation.

[Ian]

We are at a point now that even our ADRs seem like such a headache. I hate having to watch the clock to keep track of our next meal. If we have to have a complete schedule of meals, rides, character meets, then the trip becomes not at all enjoyable, and we'd rather spend our time and money elsewhere. I really hope it doesn't come to this.Same here. We actually haven't made many ADR's on our last couple trips (just for the key places we had to eat). We've just taken to winging it and hoping for the best.

[buzznwoodysmom]

Same here. We actually haven't made many ADR's on our last couple trips (just for the key places we had to eat). We've just taken to winging it and hoping for the best.

How has that worked for your family Ian? Are you still able to find places to eat at decent times, and places you actually want to eat at? I'm seriously thinking about starting to do the same thing. Just making ADRs for "have to" eat places and then winging it the rest of the trip. Of course my next trip is for Christmas so there is no way I'll take a chance that week, but I can definitely see us trying this in the future.

We did a last minute trip in June of 2010, DH was on his 2 week R&R from Iraq and his dates kept changing so we didn't have a set date to plan for. We made out just fine with only a couple of ADRs for the week, but it wasn't very busy that week. Not sure if we just lucked out or if other's have had success without lots and lots of ADRs. I liked that not only were we able to do everything more freely, but we also tried a few places we might never had tried, or at least not planned for. Chefs de France and Grand Floridian Cafe to name a few, which turned out to be "hidden gems" for us.

[Ian]

Yep. No issues at all, actually.

Although in fairness we did travel at reasonably slow times of the year so we may have just gotten lucky.

But we did an entire trip and only had two ADR's the entire time (both character meals for the kids) and we were still able to dine via walk-up at places like Le Cellier, Chefs De France, Teppan Edo, Crystal Palace, and San Angel Inn with very little wait. In fact, many times we waited significantly less than we normally wait when we do have ADR's!

[BrerGnat]

I was there the same week as Ian. We did same day ADRs (via the Disney mobile Dining site) sometimes a couple hours prior to the mealtime! I had a few made, but we ended up changing them to days/times that suited us better. It was very easy.

I think as long as you are flexible, you can do either walk ups or same day ADR via the mobile site from your phone. It's actually a really neat feature, and allows you to search for "open tables" for the dining time period you are interested in.

[Melanie]

I think as long as you are flexible, you can do either walk ups or same day ADR via the mobile site from your phone. It's actually a really neat feature, and allows you to search for "open tables" for the dining time period you are interested in.

Love, love, love it! It's very handy for us locals who never get to plan 180 days out.

[AgentC]

Love, love, love it! It's very handy for us locals who never get to plan 180 days out.

I agree. I book any "necessary" meals which are usually character meals . I usually book 1 meal per day, but use the mobile site to change or plan same day.

I am usually an obsessive planner but have gotten tired of it. For our Oct trip I have 2 character meals for the kids booked and nothing else. Just haven't been able to get motivated to book anything.I am lucky if I know what I want to eat tomorrow, let alone 180 days from now. ;)

I hope the next gen stuff doesn't make it worse. When we are running to an ADR or to make a fast pass time, I think we miss the best of Disney.

[MickeysBestPal]

WDW is against enforcing any of their rules.

Silly.



The reason FP is broken is because people do not come back during the 1-hour window.

I didn't know FP was broken.
Also, there's no reason to have to ride within that 1 hour window.



If a CM can enforce the Start Time of the FP, then can surely enforce the End Time I literally had to wait 30 seconds for our FPs on KS. I looked at the guy like he was a leper. But he let someone in with one that was expired. I asked to speak to his manager.


The reason FP works is the cause guests to "come back later" only as early as the beginning of the window. The end of the window doesn't matter much, in general.
What did the manger tell you?


The whole purpose of FP was to get you on an attraction in ~5 minutes or so.

No, that's not the whole purpose of FP.


Now, FP lines can be 15-30 minutes or longer.

Maybe, maybe not.
But, the use of FP after the window is not necessarily the reason.

[darthmacho]

Apologies if this is off topic, but I'm confused about the NextGen thing. Am I to believe that in the future, if I want to ride, say, Splash Mountain, that I'll need a reservation? Let's say I neglect to make one? Does this mean I won't get to ride it? What happens if I get behind on my ride reservations because of a ride breakdown, my waitress is slow, or my kid gets tired? What if I get off Splash and just happen to want to ride again? Will I have to make reservations for my snacks and quick service too? Am I to know 180 days in advance when I'll be hungry? Should I reserve bathroom breaks too?

I hope I'm wrong about this. I'm an avid planner. I've got an itinerary for next August's trip already. The thing is, the itinerary is extremely flexible and can be altered at any time without any harm. This NextGen thing sounds way too rigid, unless I'm reading it wrong, which I hope is the case. If not, I never thought I'd say this, but I think I might be taking my last trip to WDW next year too...:(

[Goofy4TheWorld]

Should I reserve bathroom breaks too?(

Yes you will, and with the next NextGen Bathroom FP, you will only get a 15 minute window! :D

[darthmacho]

Yes you will, and with the next NextGen Bathroom FP, you will only get a 15 minute window! :D

Uh oh, better make sure I'm "regular" for next year's trip!

I can't believe I just posted that on my 5000th post...how embarrassing! :blush:

Seriously, though, can anyone explain NextGen and "scheduling" your rides? Would that mean "no reservations = no rides"?

[BrerGnat]

Seriously, though, can anyone explain NextGen and "scheduling" your rides? Would that mean "no reservations = no rides"?

Well, no one really knows the details yet, since Disney hasn't given any. There are, apparently, lots of different ways it could be implemented.

However, I don't think the Standby line is going to be eliminated. Instead, the NextGen will give you more options in obtaining fastpasses ahead of your trip, if you want to.

Considering how many visitors to WDW still don't know what Fastpass is, that it's free, and how to use it, I'm confident that this new stuff will be "for the regulars", the mega fans who go every year, plan their ADRs 180 days out, etc. They will still likely anticipate somewhere north of 50% of the park visitors will go the "old fashioned" route.

[darthmacho]

Well, no one really knows the details yet, since Disney hasn't given any. There are, apparently, lots of different ways it could be implemented.

However, I don't think the Standby line is going to be eliminated. Instead, the NextGen will give you more options in obtaining fastpasses ahead of your trip, if you want to.

Considering how many visitors to WDW still don't know what Fastpass is, that it's free, and how to use it, I'm confident that this new stuff will be "for the regulars", the mega fans who go every year, plan their ADRs 180 days out, etc. They will still likely anticipate somewhere north of 50% of the park visitors will go the "old fashioned" route.

Thank you for that explanation. It makes sense that way. It still sounds a little fishy to me, but that mitigates my concerns a bit. I do make my ADRs at 180, I'm working on the "go every year" thing, and sadly, I actually have an August 2012 itinerary on my laptop. :blush:

Also, I suppose it would be handy to have that first ride on Dumbo secured before our visit. :dumbo:

[Altair]

So now I guess FastPassers will be glaring and whining as XPassers just keep passing them by in line. And as for Standby folks, I guess they should just stay home.:(

[buzznwoodysmom]

However, I don't think the Standby line is going to be eliminated. Instead, the NextGen will give you more options in obtaining fastpasses ahead of your trip, if you want to.



I totally agree with you, however, I wonder how many people thought "walk ups" for restaurants would never be completely eliminated???? While I know they haven't been completely eliminated, some of the more popular places, Ohana's and Le Cellier to name a few, are already very hard to get into, and a lot of time you can't get in as a walk up. I wonder if, given time, the more popular rides will end up the same? I really, really hope not!

[biodtl]

Instead, the NextGen will give you more options in obtaining fastpasses ahead of your trip, if you want to.
The thing that concerns me about this is will these ADR-type FPs come out of the total for the day. As it is, many popular rides run out of FPs early in the day - this could make it impossible for folks to get one unless they schedule themselves to death.

[MickeysBestPal]

will these ADR-type FPs come out of the total for the day.


They would have to, as the ride's daily capacity can't be expanded, and the current FP system "maxes out" the number of guests that they can offer positions to, without killing the Standby line (walk-ups) completely.



As it is, many popular rides run out of FPs early in the day - this could make it impossible for folks to get one unless they schedule themselves to death.

Exactly.

Fewer in-park FP's.
In fact, if they are to accommodate a large number of Resort guests with FP's to the more popular attractions, the in-park FP's could easily disappear completely.

For those who think that Disney would only grab "half" the FP's for Resort guests' early reserved spots.
Half the number of FP's per day for, say, TSM, would not even begin to take care of enough early "FP-ADR" guests to make it worthwhile to even discuss as a "perk" for those guests.

Since TSM is THE (current) most-popular FP at WDW, if a guest can't even GET a "FP-ADR" (due to extreme popularity) for TSM on a day that they will be at DHS, then what's the point of this whole "program?"

I mean, who cares about getting a "FP-ADR" for The Land or Maelstrom, six months in advance?

It's the BIGGIES (Soarin', Space Mtn., TSM, Exped Everest, Safari) that guests would want as a FP-ADR. They will likely run out in 10-30 minutes after the reservation window opens.

[Butters]

I love planning... And I think ADR's are great... BUT the time it will take to plan my rides out in advance would not be worth it... I wonder how they plan on working rehabs? I.e. Splash mountain is never announced being down in Jan until late in the year... What if in Aug you reserve a Jan splash mtn time? Or if the ride breaks down... Not a biggie now since rides are more spontaneous.

First time I go to DW and can't do half of what I want without planning every 30 minutes 180 days out, I'll be packing up and heading over to Harry Potter...

[MickeysBestPal]

If they really do intend to "schedule" FP's for resort guests...

That program has the potential of making a few thousand guests happy.

It also has the potential of making millions of other guests angry.

[seanyred]

I agree with most that I don't want to plan every aspect of my trip in advance. Infact I enjoy having new experiences and at my own pace. However, we still don't know any of the FACTS of what this is all about, everything is speculation right now.

change is a funny thing for us human's. we tend not to like it (even when it can be for the better)

[Melanie]

However, we still don't know any of the FACTS of what this is all about, everything is speculation right now.

Exactly! Waiting patiently for any info on it.

[Darbylew]

We never plan for ADR's as it seems like you
always have to wait no mater what time your
ADR is for. As for the fasspass we always try to
get back during the window that we have. We
have never been more than a few minutes late
at times. If you have a certain time to be back
then you should do your best to get there at
that time at least that is my feeling on it.

[Daisy'sMom]

I am one of those that hate planning our trip. I hate having reservations for dining, I hate fast pass, etc. I love being able to relax and not look at my watch when I am at Disney. We will make reservations once in a while for a restaurant, but do not schedule them day after day. I hate having to plan what and where I am just for dining. So, I will no doubt frown upon an xpass.:mickey:

[PirateLover]

I'm actually seeing some buzz about Disney recently testing in some spots how Fastpass was originally intended to work - guests actually having to return during the hour window on their FP. Also reports are indicating that CMs are no longer advising guests that the return times are open-ended, like they have in the past.


Oh no...we used to always return "late". Although, I understand why they might want to enforce the window. However, how can they account for lateness that is not the guest's fault? Like, ride breakdowns, or longer than posted waits at other rides, longer than usual lines at food/merchandise spots, etc.? Isn't that why the return time is open ended?

Interesting topic. Just got back, and happened across a number of new CMs getting trained (Maybe it's turnover season for college program?) As far as FP is concerned I overheard CMs at two locations explicitly state that the FPs should always be accepted after the start time has passed, no matter how late it is.

One day, Toy Story Mania broke down for most of the day. We had gotten fastpasses for it, with our window starting at around 10:15. 10:30 rolls around and it's still down, but we want to ride something else. All the other major rides now had extra long lines because of TSM being down. Tower of Terror had a 50 min posted wait time so we decided to FastPass it, do Rock N Roller Coaster, and come back. Only problem was, we were still blocked out of getting FastPasses, but our current ones were unusable due to ride breakdown. A CM overheard us and didn't even blink in printing us ToT FPs even though we weren't entitled to them.

Moral of the story is from what I saw, CMs are still being trained to accommodate the guests as best they can as far as FP goes. If they start enforcing return times and take that too bad, so sad mentality, it's not going to be pretty.

[jonahbear2006]

I would LIKE to see them enforce this. I dont think its very fair to allow you to come anytime that day with a pass that has the time on it and in 2007 we were turned away a few times bc our passes were not within the hour anymore. If the ride is important enough for you to get a fastpass, then I think you should be there in your window to use it and i think you SHOULD use them if you get them. Getting them and then just throwing them out is completely irresponsible. There was somebody else who wanted that ticket,fo sho!

[Melanie]

One day, Toy Story Mania broke down for most of the day. We had gotten fastpasses for it, with our window starting at around 10:15. 10:30 rolls around and it's still down, but we want to ride something else. All the other major rides now had extra long lines because of TSM being down. Tower of Terror had a 50 min posted wait time so we decided to FastPass it, do Rock N Roller Coaster, and come back. Only problem was, we were still blocked out of getting FastPasses, but our current ones were unusable due to ride breakdown. A CM overheard us and didn't even blink in printing us ToT FPs even though we weren't entitled to them.

Why would you be blocked out of ToT FastPasses if it was 10:30? If your TSM FP had a return time of 10:15, that's when another FP was available to you. :confused:

[IloveDisney71]

Which is precisely why, if this stupid "NextGen" garbage turns out to be half as bad as it sounds...
I refuse to be forced to plan out every split-second of my vacation just to avoid being shut out of rides, character meet-and-greets, and restaurants ... you know, all the stuff I'm actually, well, there for? :mad:
I totally agree! It's one thing to make dining reservations but to have to plan ahead for rides and character meet & greets - that's just getting RIDICULOUS!!!!!:ack:

[Disney Hungarian]

Since this new x-pass is still speculation. I will try to reserve judgement. I will say; if this new plan requires more planning on my part in addition to the nightmare ADR's. You can count me out. I can honestly say that I do not know what park I will be in, on any given day of my trip. That is why I get the park-hopper tickets. If one park is crowded, then I just go to another. The idea of planning fast-passes in advance is not a vacation in my book.

[AgentC]

Just to go back to fast passes for a minute.

We were at Hollywood Studios yesterday. As we walked in the front they were doing announcements like "wait times can be found on the chalkboard". I wasn't paying any attention, but my husband said. "Hey, I didn't know that fast passes could be used after the end time."

Not sure if it was just for Labor Day weekend, but they did announce it. :)

[MrPeetrie]

If they really do intend to "schedule" FP's for resort guests...

That program has the potential of making a few thousand guests happy.

It also has the potential of making millions of other guests angry.


I totally agree. It will take any park spontaneity out of the equation!

[Urbss]

Ian, I agree 100%.

We are at a point now that even our ADRs seem like such a headache. I hate having to watch the clock to keep track of our next meal. If we have to have a complete schedule of meals, rides, character meets, then the trip becomes not at all enjoyable, and we'd rather spend our time and money elsewhere. I really hope it doesn't come to this.

And I agree with both of you, I think this would completely kill the Disney Magic for me and my family. I hope the "Powers That Be" monitor this site and listen to the reactions of some of the most obsessed Disney fans!!

[Goes4FastPass]

I get so exhausted trying to manage ADRs and FPs along with show times - we don’t want to sit in air conditioned FOTLK soaking wet from KRR, right?.

I am willing to trek to the attraction to get FPs and come back later for the “experience” but if we’re a little late in getting back during the return time hour will somebody please give us a small break?

I hope I never see restrooms at WDW with two entrances, one marked “Standby” and the other showing a FastPee Return Time.

[MickeysBestPal]

I would LIKE to see them enforce this. I dont think its very fair to allow you to come anytime that day with a pass that has the time on it...

It simply doesn't matter WHEN a person chooses to use a FP, after the earliest Return Time is reached.

It
does
not
matter.

[Buttercup]

This is the 33 year old fuddy-duddy coming out in me... so bear with me.

When I make my ADR for dinner at say, 6pm, I show up for my ADR at 6pm. Why? Because that's when I made the reservation. I can't show up at 7pm and expect they'll have a table for me, because now my table has gone to the next party who has shown up at the proper time. I think we can all agree on that premise, right?

So when my fast pass says I have to come back between 1pm - 2pm (and I do see this on the sign before choose to get the actual fast passes), you bet your bottom I'm gonna be there within that hour! Why? Because in my mind, Disney has figured out some calculation that there will be X-number of people coming between 1-2pm with their fast passes, and therefore the fast pass lane will move at a good pace in order to accommodate those X-number of people. But then you toss in all the people who decided NOT to use their fast passes in the morning, and they start showing up between 1-2pm as well, and suddenly my fast pass lineup isn't moving so fast anymore. All because people decided to stretch the rules and take advantage of Disney's "make the guest happy" approach. All those rule-benders are filling up what would have been a quick and easy fast pass line for those of us who follow the rules. So in my eyes... it. does. matter.

See? I told you that you'd think I'm being a fuddy-duddy!
I didn't realize so many people stretched that rule and figured the fast pass was good for "anytime" after the start time. I honestly believe if they post the times above the kiosk, you know what time you're going to get and if you don't like it, don't get the fast pass right away!

Now. With that said, in regards to an X-pass, where I have to schedule what time, on what day I want to be riding Space Mountain, that's just going too far. I'm quite happy deciding on the day-of what I want to do (as in "Oh, we can get a fast pass for Soarin for between 2-3pm... that sounds good). But I seriously don't have the time to be sitting at home on my computer figuring out "On Tuesday January 29th, at 3pm, let's schedule a ride on Soarin'." That's ridiculous.

[MickeysBestPal]

So when my fast pass says I have to come back between 1pm - 2pm (and I do see this on the sign before choose to get the actual fast passes), you bet your bottom I'm gonna be there within that hour! Why? Because in my mind, Disney has figured out some calculation that there will be X-number of people coming between 1-2pm with their fast passes, and therefore the fast pass lane will move at a good pace in order to accommodate those X-number of people. But then you toss in all the people who decided NOT to use their fast passes in the morning, and they start showing up between 1-2pm as well, and suddenly my fast pass lineup isn't moving so fast anymore. .

That not the correct formula to compute the actual effect.

It doesn't matter when you use the FP as long as it is after the earliest Return Time.

If you didn't use it within the "window," then you (in effect) "let guests go on the ride ahead of you" during that window.

But, your "place in line" would still be waiting for you later in the day.

[Goes4FastPass]

[QUOTE=Buttercup;2207605]This is the 33 year old fuddy-duddy coming out in me... so bear with me.

When I make my ADR for dinner at say, 6pm, I show up for my ADR at 6pm. Why? Because that's when I made the reservation. I can't show up at 7pm and expect they'll have a table for me, because now my table has gone to the next party who has shown up at the proper time. I think we can all agree on that premise, right?...QUOTE]

A meal at a table in a restaurant with a limited number of tables and you use the table for an hour is not the same thing as a WDW attraction designed for capcity-capacity-capacity.

It's enough that the meal that you and I arrive to eat at 6:00pm had to be reserved the minute reservation lines opened 180+10 days ago. It's enough that we have to be at DHS when it opens to get near TSM. It's enough that headliners require a FP to be experienced

(do you know how long it takes to walk from anywhere in EPCOT all the way to and through the Land and downstairs to the Soarin' FP machines?)

If we come back a little late to use those FPs I certainly hope the whole place doesn't turn into chaos and anarchy.

Increasingly, I feel like WDW is the place where children experience magic and adults experience schedules.

[Mousemates]

Increasingly, I feel like WDW is the place where children experience magic and adults experience schedules.

great line

[Terra]

This is the 33 year old fuddy-duddy coming out in me... so bear with me.

When I make my ADR for dinner at say, 6pm, I show up for my ADR at 6pm. Why? Because that's when I made the reservation. I can't show up at 7pm and expect they'll have a table for me, because now my table has gone to the next party who has shown up at the proper time. I think we can all agree on that premise, right?

So when my fast pass says I have to come back between 1pm - 2pm (and I do see this on the sign before choose to get the actual fast passes), you bet your bottom I'm gonna be there within that hour! Why? Because in my mind, Disney has figured out some calculation that there will be X-number of people coming between 1-2pm with their fast passes, and therefore the fast pass lane will move at a good pace in order to accommodate those X-number of people. But then you toss in all the people who decided NOT to use their fast passes in the morning, and they start showing up between 1-2pm as well, and suddenly my fast pass lineup isn't moving so fast anymore. All because people decided to stretch the rules and take advantage of Disney's "make the guest happy" approach. All those rule-benders are filling up what would have been a quick and easy fast pass line for those of us who follow the rules. So in my eyes... it. does. matter.

See? I told you that you'd think I'm being a fuddy-duddy!
I didn't realize so many people stretched that rule and figured the fast pass was good for "anytime" after the start time. I honestly believe if they post the times above the kiosk, you know what time you're going to get and if you don't like it, don't get the fast pass right away!

Now. With that said, in regards to an X-pass, where I have to schedule what time, on what day I want to be riding Space Mountain, that's just going too far. I'm quite happy deciding on the day-of what I want to do (as in "Oh, we can get a fast pass for Soarin for between 2-3pm... that sounds good). But I seriously don't have the time to be sitting at home on my computer figuring out "On Tuesday January 29th, at 3pm, let's schedule a ride on Soarin'." That's ridiculous.

May I join the fuddy-duddy club? Does being 40 get me in? :party:

Seriously though, I agree with you 100%.

I completely understand not wanting to be hindered by a strict schedule. But honestly if you have one hour to return, that's pretty flexible in my opinion. Now if it said between 1:00 and 1:05, okay, I'd think that was too much! ;)

And when I do ADR's [local here, so generally we just walk up and see but sometimes we do]. I know in advance [days/weeks] what time, so I make plans to be there on time. Not that big of deal to say "Hey, my dinner ADR is at 6pm. It's 5pm now and I want to ride test track. The standby line is 40 minutes. I don't think I'll chance it, I'll do something else."

Just seems logical to me. I don't really get the rational of I want to be flexible when there is a good gap of time to return on. To me that would be like saying it would be okay then for the WDW parks to say "Hey today we feel like opening at 10am instead of 9am." Or you wouldn't book a vacation plane reservation that takes off at 5pm and think, "Oh I don't to be rushed, I think I'll show up at 5:15 and board."

Even on vacation there are typically some kind of general guidelines unless you truly do no ADRs or FPs and just walk through the park, doing whatever spontaneously.

Just my own take :)

[MickeysBestPal]

I don't really get the rational of I want to be flexible when there is a good gap of time to return on. To me that would be like saying it would be okay then for the WDW parks to say "Hey today we feel like opening at 10am instead of 9am." Or you wouldn't book a vacation plane reservation that takes off at 5pm and think, "Oh I don't to be rushed, I think I'll show up at 5:15 and board."


It's not the same thing.

It doesn't matter when you use your FP.
Your "place in line" has been reserved.
You can use it any time after the earliest Return Time without it negatively affecting others.
They would have been "behind you" anyway.
It's just that you let hundreds of others ride ahead of you, before you finally showed up to take your rightful place in the line.

Consider that you walk up to the FP line during your printed FP window...
but, instead of walking thru the line, you stand at a wide corner of the FP line, and just motion for others behind you to pass.
They go ahead of you, while you just continue to stand there, out of the way.

You continue doing that for, oh, an hour, two hours, THREE hours... then, you just join the FP line at that point and walk on up and board, and ride... three hours "late."

Now, who did you hurt in the above situation?

[MickeyFan1998]

I'm going to chime in and join the "fuddy-duddy" crowd. It's a 14 hour drive for us to visit, so we do schedule ADR's. I know what time I booked them, so if a return time on the FP is the same time, I don't get the FP. This actually happened to us on our trip in '04. I didn't think to check the return time and we got FP's for TT. We had an ADR for Garden Grill at that time, so we gave them to a couple with two kids who wanted to ride, but couldn't get them because they were all out. I think at the end of the day, it's a matter of just being on time. If it says to return at this time, that's when you should return to ride. I do understand that there will be circumstances, i.e. rides breaking down, to where you can't ride but for the most part, you should figure that into your schedule when you stop to get the FP.

Just my :twocents: for what it's worth...

[Terra]

It's not the same thing.

It doesn't matter when you use your FP.
Your "place in line" has been reserved.
You can use it any time after the earliest Return Time without it negatively affecting others.
They would have been "behind you" anyway.
It's just that you let hundreds of others ride ahead of you, before you finally showed up to take your rightful place in the line.

Consider that you walk up to the FP line during your printed FP window...
but, instead of walking thru the line, you stand at a wide corner of the FP line, and just motion for others behind you to pass.
They go ahead of you, while you just continue to stand there, out of the way.

You continue doing that for, oh, an hour, two hours, THREE hours... then, you just join the FP line at that point and walk on up and board, and ride... three hours "late."

Now, who did you hurt in the above situation?

Yes it is the same thing in my opinion. There's a specific time printed on the FP ticket. Return within the times. It's that simple. Otherwise they should have renamed it or put "Good anytime AFTER "X" time."

And again, even though others have explained it, it DOES make the waiting longer because let's say 100 people got the FP. The 1st 25 come back between 12-1, the second 25 from 1-2, the third from 2-3 and the 4 group of 25 from 3-4. But none of them showed up until 2 pm. There's going to be a heck of longer wait than if say, the first 25 showed up 12-1pm, and so on and so forth.

So either it needs to be a "true" time or the FP needs to be redone to read "anytime". Then it honestly defeats the purpose of FP.

As an adult, I just chose to follow the time guidelines. I realize however with children [I have 2 small ones myself] that sometimes sticking to times in a huge park can be a bit taxing!! But generally It works out great for us. I also realize others are different though.

[dmosher]

For the record certain cats members in certain areas have been informed that they will be enforcing the FP 1 hour time slot in the future. While this is not an official Disney policy yet, it is in the testing/working phase and it looks like it will go through. This is being changed to force guests to adhere to the time limit on their FB stub. While some may see this as being to strict, the fast pass system was designed to streamline the line and without this restriction it has not worked as well as projected. It is just another example of the system needing to evolve to accomodate the number of guests.

Sorry but that seems to be the state of things.

[Terra]

For the record certain cats members in certain areas have been informed that they will be enforcing the FP 1 hour time slot in the future. While this is not an official Disney policy yet, it is in the testing/working phase and it looks like it will go through. This is being changed to force guests to adhere to the time limit on their FB stub. While some may see this as being to strict, the fast pass system was designed to streamline the line and without this restriction it has not worked as well as projected. It is just another example of the system needing to evolve to accomodate the number of guests.

Sorry but that seems to be the state of things.

Great point! Agreed!

[Goes4FastPass]

For the record certain cats members in certain areas have been informed that they will be enforcing the FP 1 hour time slot in the future. While this is not an official Disney policy yet, it is in the testing/working phase and it looks like it will go through. This is being changed to force guests to adhere to the time limit on their FB stub. While some may see this as being to strict, the fast pass system was designed to streamline the line and without this restriction it has not worked as well as projected. It is just another example of the system needing to evolve to accomodate the number of guests.

Sorry but that seems to be the state of things.

Greaat....:ack: Just what we happy vacationers need, strrrrict cast members who get to nail guests who are 6 minutes late for their FP return time. "No Splash Mountain for you today! Mwah ah ah!... I'm just doing my job! Mwah ah ah!... "

"For the record" this is so very wrong. It is bad for the Walt Disney Company for "the system" to "evolve" in the wrong direction.

[Buttercup]

Yes it is the same thing in my opinion. There's a specific time printed on the FP ticket. Return within the times. It's that simple. Otherwise they should have renamed it or put "Good anytime AFTER "X" time."

And again, even though others have explained it, it DOES make the waiting longer because let's say 100 people got the FP. The 1st 25 come back between 12-1, the second 25 from 1-2, the third from 2-3 and the 4 group of 25 from 3-4. But none of them showed up until 2 pm. There's going to be a heck of longer wait than if say, the first 25 showed up 12-1pm, and so on and so forth.

So either it needs to be a "true" time or the FP needs to be redone to read "anytime". Then it honestly defeats the purpose of FP.

As an adult, I just chose to follow the time guidelines. I realize however with children [I have 2 small ones myself] that sometimes sticking to times in a huge park can be a bit taxing!! But generally It works out great for us. I also realize others are different though.
:exactly::ditto:
The system was put in place so people would come back during the appointed time. That's how it was originally created: how it was supposed to keep a limited, pre-determined number of people in the FP lineup at all times to ensure it moves quickly.
I'm sure when FP started, some people showed up a little late, and some generous cast members said "No problem, come on in". I have no problem with that: if you're supposed to be there by 2pm and it's 2:05... okay, you were a little delayed. But then somehow, over the years, that little bit of generosity has morphed into a free-for-all where people consider it the "norm" to come back whenever they feel like it, even hours later! That's not being a little hung-up and delayed on another ride... that's purposely waiting until hours later to use your fast pass. And that's not how it was or should be used.

Here's me in my Fuddy Duddy hat: :drill:

[Ian]

Over the course of a day, barring anything anamalous, people coming back after their FP window has closed would not affect wait times.

And even if it did, it would positively affect wait times at a different time of day since the people coming back late weren't in the line earlier.

Once you understand that there's a fixed number of FP's distributed in a given day for a given attraction, it's fairly straightforward to see that the impact from this is very, very low and certainly nothing for Disney to take a guest satisfaction risk on.

[BrerGnat]

My guess is that somewhere north of 75% of guests don't read the fine print. Right on the ticket, since the beginning of Fastpass, it says that it's good anytime after the return window opens up, for THAT day. Most guests probably see the BIG time window, and follow it. They don't read the back of the ticket, all the fine print, etc.

I have a hard time believing that Disney always intended the window to be a hard and fast rule. They designed the system to accommodate latecomers, and it does not change the waits one way or another how late you arrive with your FP.

What the problem is, is that they have stuck FP on too many rides where it's just not a good thing, loading wise, to have. You can see evidence of this at Disneyland resort, which has many of the same rides as WDW, but WITHOUT fastpasses, and the lines never get insanely long. WDW is too liberal with the amount of FP attractions, and that is why the lines are not manageable. Although, for all this talk of long FP waits, I've NEVER, since the advent of FP, waited more than 10 minutes in a FP line. I think too many people think FP means 'board immediately" and it just doesn't mean that at all.

[Ian]

I have a hard time believing that Disney always intended the window to be a hard and fast rule. They designed the system to accommodate latecomers, and it does not change the waits one way or another how late you arrive with your FP.I'm not sure that's true ... at least in the beginning of the system, I'm fairly certain the back of the ticket said, "Return between the two times listed on the front of this ticket."

So in the beginning they may have intended it to work that way, but I'm pretty sure they now say you can return any time after your window opens, which leads me to believe that's the way they're intended to be used currently.

[Terra]

I've NEVER, since the advent of FP, waited more than 10 minutes in a FP line. I think too many people think FP means 'board immediately" and it just doesn't mean that at all.
Generally I've found that too be true as well except at Soarin', Test Track and Splash Mountain. :)

I'm not sure that's true ... at least in the beginning of the system, I'm fairly certain the back of the ticket said, "Return between the two times listed on the front of this ticket."

So in the beginning they may have intended it to work that way, but I'm pretty sure they now say you can return any time after your window opens, which leads me to believe that's the way they're intended to be used currently.

I'm going Saturday to MK, so I'm going to look on a FP ticket to see what it currently says. I do believe you're right though Ian. I don't have a problem really if it states that plainly and that's the direction they've gone/want to go.

I just like something fairly concrete either way.

[MickeysBestPal]

For the record certain cats members in certain areas have been informed that they will be enforcing the FP 1 hour time slot in the future.

While that was reported by certain sites a week or two ago, it looks, now, to have been incorrect information.

[MickeysBestPal]

Here are the facts:

Disney, as a policy, accepts a FP any time after the earliest Return Time on the same day that the FP is issued.

Anyone who wants to use a FP within the printed window has a right to do so.

Anyone who wants to use a FP later than the printed window has a right to do so, as this is Disney's policy.

Can Disney change its policy at any time?
Yes.
But, they have not done so, as of yet.

[Ian]

I'm going Saturday to MK, so I'm going to look on a FP ticket to see what it currently says. I do believe you're right though Ian. I don't have a problem really if it states that plainly and that's the direction they've gone/want to go.

I just like something fairly concrete either way.I actually did a Google image search earlier on this and found plenty of examples of Fastpasses that had the "Return Between ... " language on them, but none with the " ... any time after your window opens" language.

[MickeysBestPal]

I'm not sure that's true ... at least in the beginning of the system, I'm fairly certain the back of the ticket said, "Return between the two times listed on the front of this ticket."


The pertinent "fine print" regarding the times FP is accepted
printed on the back of the FP has always stated (and still does...)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Please enter the FASTPASS+ entrance
at the attraction between the times noted on the other side.

Cannot accept early arrivals. Valid only on date printed."
---------------------------------------------------------------------

It is worth noting that it does not say, "Cannot accept late arrivals."
It only specifically names early arrivals.
That is the significant point.

BTW, I rarely use a FP after its printed window.
I'm just here discussing that it is Disney's own policy
that they do accept FP's after the printed window times.

It is not against the rules to use them that way, as the
Disney rules do allow it.

[Terra]

I actually did a Google image search earlier on this and found plenty of examples of Fastpasses that had the "Return Between ... " language on them, but none with the " ... any time after your window opens" language.

Thanks! Interesting topic for sure!

[MickeysBestPal]

Thanks! Interesting topic for sure!

My FastPass "fine print" quote in my post directly above yours is an actual quote from the back of a current FastPass.

[Buttercup]

Yeah, the FP's have NEVER said it was fine to show up "anytime after ____". They want and need people to stick to the times printed on the front.
Wouldn't you consider this a rule?

Please enter the FASTPASS+ entrance
at the attraction between the times noted on the other side.
They are specifically telling you to return BETWEEN the 2 times listed.
If it WASN'T a rule, it would say "Please enter the FASTPASS+ entrance at the attraction anytime after the earliest arrival listed on the other side". But it DOESN'T say that.
There is nothing on any Disney-sanctioned website that says it's okay to return outside of the times noted, because they don't want you to. Every website, brochure, or anything that discusses fastpass ALL say that you are to return between the 2 times noted on the fastpass.
If you notice, the only people that actually "know" about being able to use expired fastpasses are those who have a.) tried and got lucky, or b.) heard about it from some old pro's on message boards like this. They didn't learn about this from any Disney source. Why? Because they don't want you to break that rule. The fact that they allow late comers is just them being good-natured to people who may be delayed by a few minutes (which is why they don't print "NO LATECOMERS" - they're willing to stretch the limits slightly). But that doesn't mean it's not a rule. There is an abuse of the system to be sure when people are showing up hours later, just because they feel like it, and taking advantage of the CM's good nature.

I think it's unusual that so many people are casually discussing not following the instructions that Disney has given for their system on a forum that isn't supposed to promote rule-breaking at the parks... :confused:

I'll throw this out there:
Why doesn't anybody have an issue with CM's sticking to the hard & fast rule of "No Early Arrivals"? Everyone accepts that as a "rule" and abides by it.
So why would there be a big revolt if the CM's were to stick to the "No LATE arrivals" rule as well?
I mean, afterall, everyone is saying it has "no effect on the lineups" if everyone shows up later than their timeslot. Imagine what the lineups would be like if everyone showed up early. There has to be some kind-of structure to the timeslot on the front of the FP, or the entire point of FP is lost.

[BrerGnat]

I think it's unusual that so many people are casually discussing not following the instructions that Disney has given for their system on a forum that isn't supposed to promote rule-breaking at the parks... :confused:

I'll throw this out there:
Why doesn't anybody have an issue with CM's sticking to the hard & fast rule of "No Early Arrivals"? Everyone accepts that as a "rule" and abides by it.


It's not a rule, though. That's why we can discuss it. I was told by a CM, YEARS ago, that I could use a FP up until park closing, but just not before the "first time" on the window. It was because we did show up late, by about 10 minutes, because we were eating. We went up to the CM and said "can we still use these, or are we too late?" We were willing to just toss them and get in the standby line. He basically told us "you can never be too late, as long as you don't show up tomorrow." He then said "you can return anytime you want after the first time on the ticket, just has to be the same day you got the FP."

Since then, I have found out it's common knowledge and the way that CMs are actually trained by upper management. If Disney wanted all along to enforce "the window", they would have from the beginning. And, the language says "Please return between", not "You must return between". The way things are worded really makes a difference. Plus, the backs of the tickets have always said that there are no early arrivals, but nothing about late arrivals. You can't be upset because other people interpreted the semantics differently, and thus, found the loophole in the system.

And to be honest, I was quite happy to find that out. Sometimes, the FP system doesn't work with what we are doing at the time, how my kids are behaving, etc. I would say that most of the time, I am right there waiting for the window to open up, about 5 min early. But, it's really nice to know that if I can't make it back in time, I don't need to sweat it. I think that's the point.

And, the rule about not showing up early is directly due to the way the system works, computer wise. That's not so much a rule as an operational requirement.

And, finally, don't websites like this exist partially for people like us to share this "insider knowledge" that the general public never finds out about? I'm not talking about rule breaking, but I'm talking about sharing little park secrets and such that can enhance our time in the parks, give us an "edge", and so on. It's sort of the same as knowing park shortcuts, where the best location is to watch the parades/fireworks, knowing which FP machines aren't "connected" to the system so you can obtain more than one at a time, knowing that the line for the "resort monorail" is always shorter than the "express monorail", etc.

[K8screen]

knowing which FP machines aren't "connected" to the system so you can obtain more than one at a time, etc.

Ok, which machines are these? I asked a question related to this in another thread, about fastpasses in different parks, and was told they were all connected so it couldnt happen.

[MickeysBestPal]

Yeah, the FP's have NEVER said it was fine to show up "anytime after ____". They want and need people to stick to the times printed on the front.
Wouldn't you consider this a rule?

I'll throw this out there:
Why doesn't anybody have an issue with CM's sticking to the hard & fast rule of "No Early Arrivals"? Everyone accepts that as a "rule" and abides by it.


Because Disney policy DOES prohibit an "early" entry.
That is what makes the FP system work in the first place.

There are a limited number of FP's issued each day.
Each one requires that the holder
wait a minimum of X minutes before they can return and enter the FP queue.
As the day goes by and more FP's are issued,
that interval gets longer and longer.
That "go away and come back" interval
is what keeps the FP line at a reasonable length
(barring a ride stoppage/breakdown of some kind)
That earliest Return Time then reserves a spot in the FP line for that FP holder.
It doesn't matter (after that earliest time) when the FP holder returns. His spot in line has been reserved.
He is then allowed to take up a "ride position" at some point that day.
If he takes it inside then window, that's great.
If he takes it later than the window, it doesn't
negatively affect those behind him, as he did not take his turn earlier in the day.
The lines were shorter due to his earlier absence.
When he returns with the FP, the lines will be "one-person longer" as they would have been if he HAD returned during the window.
In effect, zeroing out any "difference."

Disney policy does not require that the FP holder use that FP within the 1-hour window.

No early returns, but after-the-window returns are OK.
That is part and parcel of the Disney FP policy.

And, it doesn't negatively affect others if that FP is used late.

Now, again, I seldom use a FP outside the window.
I'm not trying to "justify" my use of an "after-the-window" FP return.
But, I am trying to explain:
A- The actual Disney policy.
B- That it doesn't negatively affect other guests.

[Buttercup]

I completely hear what you guys are saying re: "loopholes", and how forums like this are to share these to maximize park strategies, etc.

So how about this "loophole" then (which I recall years ago, certain forum members were blasted for taking advantage of this):

Let's say a family of 4 goes to Space Mountain. Instead of getting 4 fast passes from the kiosk, they get only 1 fast pass, and 1 Rider Switch (Baby Swap) pass because they do have children in their party.
Now, they can easily accommodate 4 people in the FP line (since the Rider Swap pass is good for 3 people, plus the single fast pass)... and they are free to go gather up more fastpasses around the park with the other 3 remaining park tickets.

There is nothing on the Rider Switch pass that says they can't do this. But it's a loophole, right? And this forum, a few years ago, tore some members to pieces for taking advantage of this loophole as it was deemed "skirting the system".

I'm just saying, there must be a reason Disney puts a one-hour window on the fastpasses, and I choose to abide by it. That's all. :mickey:

[clausjo]

Iwas told by a CM, YEARS ago, that I could use a FP up until park closing, but just not before the "first time" on the window.

I had a similar situation. One night on our trip this past February, we were getting FPs for TT in Epcot. We had an ADR for the time we would have to be back. The CM at the FP machines overheard me tell the kids that we wouldn't be able to get the FPs. He told us we were should get them because we were free to use the FP any time after our window opens as long as it was on the same day it was issued. We did come back after dinner and used the FP without any issue. It was well over an hour after our window closed.

We're not huge FP users, but since the CM told us this, we did get more passes on that trip. We made every effort to arrive back at the attraction between the posted window, but certainly didn't sweat it if we were running late. We never had a problem and never had to wait very long to board our ride.

[BrerGnat]

I completely hear what you guys are saying re: "loopholes", and how forums like this are to share these to maximize park strategies, etc.

So how about this "loophole" then (which I recall years ago, certain forum members were blasted for taking advantage of this):

Let's say a family of 4 goes to Space Mountain. Instead of getting 4 fast passes from the kiosk, they get only 1 fast pass, and 1 Rider Switch (Baby Swap) pass because they do have children in their party.
Now, they can easily accommodate 4 people in the FP line (since the Rider Swap pass is good for 3 people, plus the single fast pass)... and they are free to go gather up more fastpasses around the park with the other 3 remaining park tickets.

There is nothing on the Rider Switch pass that says they can't do this. But it's a loophole, right? And this forum, a few years ago, tore some members to pieces for taking advantage of this loophole as it was deemed "skirting the system".



This is a completely different thing. This IS skirting the system, and it is NOT allowed by Disney. I'm not sure about WDW, but we've done the Rider Switch/Baby Swap pass at Disneyland over a dozen times. The ONLY rides this even works on is those with a height requirement. AND, in order to be issued a Rider Switch pass, you have to have someone in the party that does not meet the height requirement. The CM issuing the pass will ask "who is not riding", and we actually had them ask to measure our son, who was almost tall enough, to make sure he was NOT. Only then would they issue the pass. We had to wait at the exit to the ride (Space Mountain at Disneyland) and again were asked "who is not riding", so the CM could get a visual on whether we were legitimately using the pass. You are allowed to take a party of 2 on the "second ride", not three. And, the CM will not let the person "not riding" go in, so basically, you can't just use this to skirt the line. They are pretty inflexible about the rules at Disneyland. Maybe not so at WDW; I can't speak from experience there, but this pass is designed for parents with babies and toddlers, thus the name "Baby Swap", which later changed to "Rider Switch."

[buzznwoodysmom]

AND, in order to be issued a Rider Switch pass, you have to have someone in the party that does not meet the height requirement. The CM issuing the pass will ask "who is not riding", and we actually had them ask to measure our son, who was almost tall enough, to make sure he was NOT. Only then would they issue the pass.

I know you are talking about Disneyland, but at WDW this statement is not true, at least not in our case. Of course things change all the time, and I'm sure it can totally depend on the CM at the entrance to an attraction, but we've never had any issues getting rider swap. My oldest son is tall enough for all the rides, yet sometimes he is "too chicken" to ride them. We've been given RIDER swap passes anytime we've asked for them for my son who is tall enough to ride, doesn't want to ride, but wasn't old enough to leave alone. In that case they never did measure him, and never told us we could not use rider swap. We've been doing this since he was around 6 or 7 and he is now 11. We've had at least 1 to 2 trips per year in that time frame and have never been denied a rider swap pass. Our most recent trip when we were allowed rider swap for him was in March. We did allow him to wait for us at a few locations, but not all of them, and in those cases we had no problems getting rider swap.

[buzznwoodysmom]

You are allowed to take a party of 2 on the "second ride", not three.

this pass is designed for parents with babies and toddlers, thus the name "Baby Swap", which later changed to "Rider Switch."

I just wanted to note that in WDW you are allowed 3 people to ride the "second ride" with rider swap, at least that's how its always been for us.

I wonder if they changed the name from Baby Swap to Rider Swap/Switch, what ever it is they are calling it now, because the rules don't apply to just babies and toddlers??? I'm talking about WDW for this, not Disneyland. I know your speaking from experience in Disneyland, I'm just wondering if there is a reason they changed the name since its been my experience that in WDW they do allow swap passes for children tall enough to ride, but are afraid to.

[Buttercup]

This is a completely different thing. This IS skirting the system, and it is NOT allowed by Disney. I'm not sure about WDW, but we've done the Rider Switch/Baby Swap pass at Disneyland over a dozen times. The ONLY rides this even works on is those with a height requirement. AND, in order to be issued a Rider Switch pass, you have to have someone in the party that does not meet the height requirement. The CM issuing the pass will ask "who is not riding", and we actually had them ask to measure our son, who was almost tall enough, to make sure he was NOT. Only then would they issue the pass. We had to wait at the exit to the ride (Space Mountain at Disneyland) and again were asked "who is not riding", so the CM could get a visual on whether we were legitimately using the pass. You are allowed to take a party of 2 on the "second ride", not three. And, the CM will not let the person "not riding" go in, so basically, you can't just use this to skirt the line. They are pretty inflexible about the rules at Disneyland. Maybe not so at WDW; I can't speak from experience there, but this pass is designed for parents with babies and toddlers, thus the name "Baby Swap", which later changed to "Rider Switch."
Actually Nat, Rider Switch passes are good for "Up To 3 People" (not 2) - it says it right on the front of the pass.
Also, your kids don't have to be "under the height" - at least not at WDW - nobody ever measures my son who is tall enough but not brave enough to go on things like RnR, etc. The Rider Switch is also given to people with adult children with special needs, elderly people who need care, etc. so it's not just for "babies" which is why it's officially called a Rider Switch pass.
If the person with the FP goes in first, followed separately by the group of 3 with the Rider Switch Pass, the CM apparently never questions if they're all together or not (or so these people who've done it were saying).
So what if the kids are too afraid to go on the ride, and then change their minds and decide to take part in the Rider Switch thing. After all, they all have "reserved" spots in the fast pass line - they're just choosing to use the spots all at once.

My point is, where is it listed that this is NOT allowed? Why can't people share that kind of "tip" with each other when it doesn't say anywhere that they can't, and many people do it all the time? (the same as it is with extending fast pass times)

Believe me, I'm not condoning the Rider Switch/Fast Pass thingy! I'm just saying, not all rules need to be printed in black & white to be valid rules, or just common sense.

haha By the way, I hope you guys don't think I'm being nasty at all! I just love a great debate! :) It's kind of neat exploring this from all angles and I know that sometimes on the internet people can take these things as being quite "heated" through words when they're not intended to be! :thumbsup:

[wdwfansince75]

I do not recall if we ever used the "loophole", but don't have a problem with those who do/did.
On our July 2010 trip, I noticed a change in the process that seems to close that loophole....The original riders all had to turn in their FP's in the queue for the initial ride...then, the second riders entered with the rider swap...no FP, since we had already turned them in, but with the rider swap, and we were directed into the FP lines...seems to me that precludes using the older loophole... I really do not remember how we used to do clild/rider swaps. We used it on practically every trip since 96, since we have had at least one DGK who was not height eligible.

[Ian]

Every website, brochure, or anything that discusses fastpass ALL say that you are to return between the 2 times noted on the fastpass.
If you notice, the only people that actually "know" about being able to use expired fastpasses are those who have a.) tried and got lucky, or b.) heard about it from some old pro's on message boards like this.This isn't the case for us. I found out about it because a CM told me about it. We were trying to give away some FP's we didn't think we'd be able to use and the kid working the FP line walked up and asked us what we were doing. When I told him we had lunch ADR's and weren't going to be able to use them he said, "Oh don't worry about it. Just come back after lunch. They're still good. That one hour window is just a suggested return time. They're good for the rest of the day."

Over the course of time since then, I've been told this exact thing by too many CM's to count and I have never been denied a return for coming in after my window has closed. I've never even had anyone mention it to me, so as far as I'm concerned that's the policy.


I know you are talking about Disneyland, but at WDW this statement is not true, at least not in our case. Of course things change all the time, and I'm sure it can totally depend on the CM at the entrance to an attraction, but we've never had any issues getting rider swap. My oldest son is tall enough for all the rides, yet sometimes he is "too chicken" to ride them. We've been given RIDER swap passes anytime we've asked for them for my son who is tall enough to ride, doesn't want to ride, but wasn't old enough to leave alone. In that case they never did measure him, and never told us we could not use rider swap. We've been doing this since he was around 6 or 7 and he is now 11. We've had at least 1 to 2 trips per year in that time frame and have never been denied a rider swap pass. Our most recent trip when we were allowed rider swap for him was in March. We did allow him to wait for us at a few locations, but not all of them, and in those cases we had no problems getting rider swap.You guys have been lucky. Every time we did a baby swap with the twins last May we had to produce the child that was too small to ride. That's most defintely the policy at WDW, it's just some CM's are lazy about following it.


I just wanted to note that in WDW you are allowed 3 people to ride the "second ride" with rider swap, at least that's how its always been for us.As far as I know, you can ride everyone that's in your party on the second ride minus the one person staying off with the child. We took as many as 8 people on with us for the second ride in the past.


Also, your kids don't have to be "under the height" - at least not at WDW - nobody ever measures my son who is tall enough but not brave enough to go on things like RnR, etc.Again, you've been lucky. We were measured every time we did baby swap with my son and, for the infants, they made us "produce" the children to verify that they were too small to ride.

[Buttercup]

Hey Ian -
Yes, we've had to "produce" the kids - meaning, we have to go up to the CM and show him we have kids with us who are too young to stay outside by themselves. But they're never measured or anything.

[WDWdriver]

[QUOTE=Ian;

As far as I know, you can ride everyone that's in your party on the second ride minus the one person staying off with the child. We took as many as 8 people on with us for the second ride in the past.

Again, you've been lucky. We were measured every time we did baby swap with my son and, for the infants, they made us "produce" the children to verify that they were too small to ride.[/QUOTE]

the rider switch pass is good for three guests, although most CM's will give you a second pass if there are more than three on the second ride.

And, yes, you must produce the non-riding child. Too many people have figured out that the rider swap pass is the same as a FP for up to three guests. We often have guests approach us asking for a rider swap pass when they obviously do not have small children in their party. They just hope to score an instant FP.

[BrerGnat]

Yeah, they are very rigid about the Rider Switch pass requirements at Disneyland. You HAVE to have a child under the height requirement, no question about it. Some CM's are downright nasty about it. I assume they get annoyed at people trying to use it improperly, since it's provided as a courtesy for those parties with 2 adults, both who want to ride, and a child too small to do so.

To my knowledge, the Rider Switch pass is NOT intended as a "chicken pass" when a member of the party simply does not want to ride.

[buzznwoodysmom]

You guys have been lucky. Every time we did a baby swap with the twins last May we had to produce the child that was too small to ride. That's most defintely the policy at WDW, it's just some CM's are lazy about following it.



Well if that's the case we are either extremely lucky, or the CMs working a few certain rides are really, really lazy!! We have always had DS with us when we tell them we'd like a rider switch pass because he is afraid to ride, but is too young to leave alone. We've done this for at least a good 7 or 8 trips now and I've never even had a CM blink an eye at that request. The rides we get the rider swap for are ToT, RNRC, and Everest, every single trip, at least a few times on each trip. So if we are just getting lucky, that's an awful lot of times.

[buzznwoodysmom]

As far as I know, you can ride everyone that's in your party on the second ride minus the one person staying off with the child. We took as many as 8 people on with us for the second ride in the past.



I would think many CMs might allow your entire party to ride, but we've always been told that it was a 3 rider ticket. If I am remembering correctly, isn't that also noted on the ticket???? Maybe not, but I know that is what we have always been told.

[Ian]

You know what's sort of enlightening about this thread? Exactly how erratic the Cast is at enforcing the rules.

Not that I didn't know it, really. I've had many, many CM's tell me there's no upside for them in "arguing" with guests because management always overrules them anyway.

[buzznwoodysmom]

You know what's sort of enlightening about this thread? Exactly how erratic the Cast is at enforcing the rules.

Not that I didn't know it, really. I've had many, many CM's tell me there's no upside for them in "arguing" with guests because management always overrules them anyway.

My thoughts exactly. But....hasn't it been that way for years now?????

[Scar]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about the swap as I've never used them, but don't you have to wait the first time in the standby line if you don't have Fastpasses thus making it not even worth it to try to cheat?

[wdwfansince75]

Scar, in all the trips when we have used the swap, we always got FP's...and used the FP line for both rides. I always considered it Disney's acknowledgement of how special my DGK's are. Not a loophole, but a reward.

[WDWdriver]

If I am remembering correctly, isn't that also noted on the ticket???? Maybe not, but I know that is what we have always been told.

Yes, the pass states on the front that it is valid for up to three guests. The CMs have a lot of discretion here. They can wave you through with more than three, hand you an additional pass to cover the extras, or deny any extras in those cases where someone clearly is abusing the system.

As for the Rider Switch pass being used as a "chicken pass", it certainly can be. There is no blanket written policy on that. At KRR where I work, we will give a Rider Switch pass to any family that has someone unwilling or unable to ride and cannot be left alone - regardless of height.

[biodtl]

Why doesn't anybody have an issue with CM's sticking to the hard & fast rule of "No Early Arrivals"? Everyone accepts that as a "rule" and abides by it.

So why would there be a big revolt if the CM's were to stick to the "No LATE arrivals" rule as well?

I mean, afterall, everyone is saying it has "no effect on the lineups" if everyone shows up later than their timeslot. Imagine what the lineups would be like if everyone showed up early. There has to be some kind-of structure to the timeslot on the front of the FP, or the entire point of FP is lost.

While we are usually heading in to the FP line as soon as our time is up, I get the distinction. Beyond trying to control wait times, if you are there early, you made a CHOICE to be there early, and you are (perhaps unwittingly) skirting the rules. However, showing up AFTER the FP window is often due to things out of your control (getting stuck on a ride, being delayed by an ADR, being caught in parade traffic, etc.) So if WDW were to get strict with enforcing the rule, people could end up missing their window by no fault of their own. And WDW would end up with (rightfully) unhappy guests and more hassle for CMs in the long run.

[WDWdriver]

You know what's sort of enlightening about this thread? Exactly how erratic the Cast is at enforcing the rules.

erratic perhaps, but I prefer to see it as the result of Disney's empowerment of the Cast. The CMs have very strict written guidelines for ride operations and safety. But as for guest interaction, there is little written guidance and a lot of room for individual decision making. A CM might be seen giving some sort of preference to one family group while sticking to "The Rules" for another. There are probably reasons why that occurred. I will sometimes pull a military vet and his entire family out of the standby queue and put them at the front of the FP line. I have never been criticized by "Management" for doing that.

[Ian]

erratic perhaps, but I prefer to see it as the result of Disney's empowerment of the Cast. The CMs have very strict written guidelines for ride operations and safety. But as for guest interaction, there is little written guidance and a lot of room for individual decision making. A CM might be seen giving some sort of preference to one family group while sticking to "The Rules" for another. There are probably reasons why that occurred. I will sometimes pull a military vet and his entire family out of the standby queue and put them at the front of the FP line. I have never been criticized by "Management" for doing that.I can see the upside to that, but Disney should consider that ... at least for frequent guests ... that can lead to some very frustrating CM interactions.

If you happen to run into Mr. "The Rules" when you're used to running into Ms. "Preference" that can turn into some unpleasantness. And I'm sure the Cast blame it on those pesky, demanding guests but think about it ... if I do something with no problem ten times in a row and on the eleventh time some stickler CM tells me I can't, you bet I'm going to be irritated by it.

Flexibility has its benefits, but rampant inconsistency (which is what I think WDW has currently) is a problem.

[Scar]

Scar, in all the trips when we have used the swap, we always got FP's...and used the FP line for both rides. I always considered it Disney's acknowledgement of how special my DGK's are. Not a loophole, but a reward.But did you have regular FP's for the first walkthrough? If you didn't would you have to use standby? I guess my question is, can anyone with a child under hieght just go through the fastpass line twice without even getting a regular FP for the first time through?

ETA: I guess what I'm really asking is for someone to explain in detail how rider swap works.

[Disney Hungarian]

ETA: I guess what I'm really asking is for someone to explain in detail how rider swap works.

This is Disney's short explanation:
http://disneyworld.disney.go.com/guest-services/rider-swap/

[Scar]

... and not suprisingly, too short to answer my question. ;)

[Disney Hungarian]

... and not suprisingly, too short to answer my question. ;)

I can only remember using it once years ago with my nephew. We had fast passes for everyone and went to the fast pass line. Gave the CM the passes and asked for the rider swap. CM asked who would not be riding. Then they gave the non rider the pass. We went through the fast pass line and rode the ride. Exited and then the non rider with the pass got to go through the fast pass line and was able to take another person with them. I have no idea of what the number of persons that could have went with them. As there was only 4 of us in total. I would assume the same could be done with the stand by line. And the non rider would go in the fast pass line also.

[BrerGnat]

But did you have regular FP's for the first walkthrough? If you didn't would you have to use standby? I guess my question is, can anyone with a child under hieght just go through the fastpass line twice without even getting a regular FP for the first time through?

ETA: I guess what I'm really asking is for someone to explain in detail how rider swap works.

Scar, in order to use the FP line, you have to have obtained a FP prior to getting the Rider Swap pass. If not, the "riders" go through the Standby line, and the "non riders" either wait at the FP entrance, OR at the ride exit, depending on the ride. Disneyland tends to have the non riders wait at the EXIT, for immediate boarding after the first set of riders comes out. The ones holding the pass (who waited with the non rider) don't need to have a FP on re-entry. They enter however the CM told them to, either through the FP line (the Rider Switch pass replaces a FP in this instance) or through the exit, where the pass is collected by the CM manning the exit.

And, for what it's worth, this is DISNEY's official line on the subject (note the bold):

Disney's Rider Swap option is available at select attractions in all 4 Disney Theme Parks at Walt Disney World Resort in Florida.

Rider Swap is when Guests take turns waiting with youngsters too small to ride a certain attraction, then "swap" with another adult Guest from their party to experience the ride without standing in line twice.

Ask a Cast Member at an attraction for additional information on Rider Swap.

[buzznwoodysmom]

erratic perhaps, but I prefer to see it as the result of Disney's empowerment of the Cast. The CMs have very strict written guidelines for ride operations and safety. But as for guest interaction, there is little written guidance and a lot of room for individual decision making. A CM might be seen giving some sort of preference to one family group while sticking to "The Rules" for another. There are probably reasons why that occurred. I will sometimes pull a military vet and his entire family out of the standby queue and put them at the front of the FP line. I have never been criticized by "Management" for doing that.

This makes a lot of sense. In doing this they make a lot more guests happy in the long run.

[buzznwoodysmom]

But did you have regular FP's for the first walkthrough? If you didn't would you have to use standby? I guess my question is, can anyone with a child under hieght just go through the fastpass line twice without even getting a regular FP for the first time through?

ETA: I guess what I'm really asking is for someone to explain in detail how rider swap works.

In our experience if we didn't get a regular FP the first riders go through the regular line, and only the second set of riders go through the FP line. Now if you already got FP's for that ride then both groups can go through the FP line. This is how its always been done for us.

[Scar]

Thanks Natalie and Denise, now I can finally address this post:
I completely hear what you guys are saying re: "loopholes", and how forums like this are to share these to maximize park strategies, etc.

So how about this "loophole" then (which I recall years ago, certain forum members were blasted for taking advantage of this):

Let's say a family of 4 goes to Space Mountain. Instead of getting 4 fast passes from the kiosk, they get only 1 fast pass, and 1 Rider Switch (Baby Swap) pass because they do have children in their party.
Now, they can easily accommodate 4 people in the FP line (since the Rider Swap pass is good for 3 people, plus the single fast pass)... and they are free to go gather up more fastpasses around the park with the other 3 remaining park tickets.

There is nothing on the Rider Switch pass that says they can't do this. But it's a loophole, right? And this forum, a few years ago, tore some members to pieces for taking advantage of this loophole as it was deemed "skirting the system".

I'm just saying, there must be a reason Disney puts a one-hour window on the fastpasses, and I choose to abide by it. That's all. :mickey:I don't see the loophole. The one person who got the FP still had to wait for his time to open up, and the party still had to wait in the standby line. Where's the loophole?

[BrerGnat]

Thanks Natalie and Denise, now I can finally address this post:I don't see the loophole. The one person who got the FP still had to wait for his time to open up, and the party still had to wait in the standby line. Where's the loophole?

You're misunderstanding the loophole. What I *think* is that these people were using the Rider Switch pass when they didn't need to, and everyone was riding eventually, but the party was only obtaining ONE Fastpass (but allowing 4 people total to ride via the FP line by utilizing the Rider Switch as a FP). This allowed the party to then be holding FP for FOUR different rides at once, and then repeating the "Rider Switch" scam at each attraction.

THIS is a blatant misuse of the Rider Switch pass. UNLESS there really was a person in the party that was too small to ride, in which case, to be honest, it was just smart planning.

My interpretation of this was that, if the party consisted of 4 people, and all 4 people rode every ride, they were scamming the system by asking to use the Rider Switch pass when they didn't intend to have a "non rider".

Make sense?

This is why, particularly at Disneyland, they are VERY STRICT about the requirement that a person in the party is too short to ride before they will issue a Rider Switch pass.

[wdwfansince75]

Trying to think back on the many trips and dozens of times when we have used the rider swap....
1. We have always gotten Fast Passes...cannot recall ever using rider swap without FP's
2. CM's usually allow pass holder and 3. (was once told that some CM's only allow total of 3, but never experienced that limitation
4. We were told by others (not CM's) that they had used Rider Swap with a lengthly break between rides...rode once, did something else, and came back later for the second ride...we never saw a reason to try it, and the one time we asked a CM about it, we were told that the guidelines were that it was for back to back rides. We did experience a ride stoppage after getting off, and the CM took back the swap pass, and gave us 4 fast passes for later use.
3. Several times, we were allowed to use the same non-rider for both rides...DW stayed with DGK while parents and/or siblings and I rode twice...at least once, I rode twice with 3 DGK's while DW waited with the too short DGK.
4. We have used FP's outside the window when also using rider swap...but only after asking CM's if we could do so, and still use the rider swap..
5. We have never tried it with a DGK tall enough to ride ...but we have seen others do it...on several rides...

[Buttercup]

Where's the loophole?
This is the loophole.

Normally, person #1, 2, 3 and 4 would all get FP's (and therefore not be able to get any more FP's for a couple of hours).
In this case, however, person #1 ONLY gets a FP at the kiosk.
Then, they go to the CM and say "We need a Rider Switch Pass please" for the rest of the group - persons #3 & 4 are kids so the CM hands it over no questions asked.

Now, person #1 enters the FP lineup with his FP, and persons #2, 3 & 4 enter the FP lineup as well with their Rider Switch pass, under the guise that "Oh, our kids #3 & 4 decided to ride afterall"...
Or, perhaps, if they're not trying to "skirt" the system, maybe kids #3 and 4 actually did change their mind and decide to ride.

Regardless, that means, they've only "spent" one fast pass within their group, and now persons #2, 3 & 4 are able to go collect more fast passes immediately around the park without having to wait the standard amount of time to collect more.

[Scar]

Hmmm... something still doesn't seem right. But I'm going to need some time with a pencil and paper and photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one to figure this out. Don''t have the time now. I'll be back.

[seanyred]

This is the loophole.

Normally, person #1, 2, 3 and 4 would all get FP's (and therefore not be able to get any more FP's for a couple of hours).
In this case, however, person #1 ONLY gets a FP at the kiosk.
Then, they go to the CM and say "We need a Rider Switch Pass please" for the rest of the group - persons #3 & 4 are kids so the CM hands it over no questions asked.

Now, person #1 enters the FP lineup with his FP, and persons #2, 3 & 4 enter the FP lineup as well with their Rider Switch pass, under the guise that "Oh, our kids #3 & 4 decided to ride afterall"...
Or, perhaps, if they're not trying to "skirt" the system, maybe kids #3 and 4 actually did change their mind and decide to ride.

Regardless, that means, they've only "spent" one fast pass within their group, and now persons #2, 3 & 4 are able to go collect more fast passes immediately around the park without having to wait the standard amount of time to collect more.

Your scenario was exhausting to read and in real life it would be even more exhausting to pull off on a consistant basis to even bother with trying for this so-called loop-hole. The policy does say that rider swap is for families that have children too small to ride. So if kids 3&4 are tall enough then they should be denied the Rider Swap pass, thus negating the loop-hole.

Honestly, in the past 6 years of going to WDW I can never recall seeing anyone abuse the system in this way.

[dizneydeb22]

I'm a little confused!!??!! I believe I read a few times in this post that Disney has not released any information regarding the NextGen system. If that is the case, where are people getting this information from and why are so many people getting upset and trashing Disney over something that has not been confirmed.

Many people have actually said that they will not plan another vacation if this happens!! That only benefits the rest of us who truely LOVE Disney!! Disney makes some decisions that I don't agree with, but then again, I'm not responsible for such a large company and all the problems and blessings it involves!
I suggest all the naysayers and complainers get together, design and open your own theme park, and then get back to all us little people and tell us how easy it is!

OK, off my soapbox! I'll probably get slammed from some people, but like you I have an opinion also.:soapbox::mickey:

[wdwfansince75]

Good point, Debbie...we have gotten off on a tangent...and I thought the same as you did...Oh good, the new system will drive so many people away, the standby lines will shrink, and FP's will be walk on's!

Meanwhile, on the side track...family members have assured me that we all had FP's when we used the rider swap, and all turned them in before the first ride...and on the second ride, the non-rider from the first time was able to enter the FP line, using the rider swap, with up to 3 riders. DDiL #1 seems to recall not turning in her FP for the second ride...thinks she would up with an extra one, which she thinks I used later that day.

[MaxPower]

Disney made one crucial mistake.

Fastpass debuted in 1999. Think about the first time you ever heard about Fastpass. If you were like most, you thought the idea was FANTASTIC and you were shocked, but elated, that Disney would even attempt something like it. The idea was pure Disney - a way to increase your fun and eliminate your time in line. Once you found out it was FREE (even more shocking!), you were on board 100%.

It would never occur to you to try to bend any of the rules regarding how it worked. (Just as today you would not try to jump on a float during a parade to get a photo with Mickey because you know that's against the rules).

When you had your first Fastpass, you followed the rules regarding it. If it said your return time was between 2pm and 3pm, you assumed that 3:01PM would be too late -pure and simple.

And this is where Disney made their mistake - from Day One, they should have made a hard and fast rule about the return time - "I'm sorry sir, but the Fastpasses are a courtesy and it clearly states that you needed to return by 3PM-if we let you in at 3:01, then we'd have to let the woman behind you in at 3:02pm and the whole late return issue would snowball -so if you'd like to use Fastpass in the future, make sure you return during the window."

In that first year, there of course would be some disgruntled people who were one or two minutes late -BUT when turned away, they would learn quickly that there are no exceptions - plus they'd still think Fastpass is a GREAT thing because their bad experience was clearly their own fault. Do you think they would never try Fastpass again or badmouth it? Of course not - all they would say is "Make sure you return during your window!"

But because Disney enforced no rule about return time, the word spread and now many people think it's a right rather than a privilege to come back anytime after their window ( and Disney agrees, er, kinda sort of, maybe, but, shhh, don't say it out loud...)

Big Big Mistake regarding something people LOVE that is a courtesy. If you're getting something wonderful for free, then you have no right but to follow the rules regarding it no matter how strict. If you don't like it - then the standby line is right there waiting for you.

[MickeysBestPal]

When you had your first Fastpass, you followed the rules regarding it. If it said your return time was between 2pm and 3pm, you assumed that 3:01PM would be too late -pure and simple.

And this is where Disney made their mistake - from Day One, they should have made a hard and fast rule about the return time

Why does it matter?

[Mousemates]

In that first year, there of course would be some disgruntled people who were one or two minutes late -BUT when turned away, they would learn quickly that there are no exceptions - plus they'd still think Fastpass is a GREAT thing because their bad experience was clearly their own fault. Do you think they would never try Fastpass again or badmouth it? Of course not - all they would say is "Make sure you return during your window!" (underlined by mousemates for emphasis)

I disagree...if the reason you were late for your fastpass to say Soarin was something along the lines of slow service for your meal at Chefs de France or a malfunction at a ride (think say test track), a person would not think it was their fault, but that it was Disney's fault. They would then be further irked, when Disney compounded things by sending them to stand in the "forever wait" line.

[MaxPower]

(underlined by mousemates for emphasis)

I disagree...if the reason you were late for your fastpass to say Soarin was something along the lines of slow service for your meal at Chefs de France or a malfunction at a ride (think say test track), a person would not think it was their fault, but that it was Disney's fault. They would then be further irked, when Disney compounded things by sending them to stand in the "forever wait" line.

No disrespect to Mousemates, but her post exemplifies my point exactly - people treat the Fastpass as a right rather than a privilege.

In Walt Disney World, as in life, STUFF HAPPENS.

If someone arrives late to see a parade because he was delayed on Space Mountain when it broke down, should he be compensated somehow? Afterall, he missed the parade because it was Disney's fault. Should they give him a free pass to come back another day? (Go to City Hall and try using this theory and see what you're told.)

How does one define "slow service" at a restaurant? To some, it would mean a 10 minute wait and to others it would mean a 45 minute wait. Should the guy who has to wait 10 minutes be given something for his trouble? There is no way to realitically police these things in Walt Disney World.

This stuff happens, and like anyone else, I think it's annoying. But these events are exceptions - and for people to expect Disney to compensate for exceptions is not realistic. They provide Fastpasses as a (very nice) courtesy - but people act as if they are paying for them and demand THEIR RIGHTS.

Maybe Disney should take away Fastpass all together and leave us all with only the "forever wait" line - the way it was for decades. If this happened, I bet there would be lawsuits.

[gratuspater]

Why does it matter?

If it doesn't matter to you why did you remove (or why was it removed) your original post?:secret:The one were you talked of being late for your fast pass return time, because it was your childs first trip to disney, and you wanted to see Mickey's Philhar Magic first.:confused: I find it very odd that only after that post is gone, that you claim to "rarely use fast pass and always try to be on time", especially with how critical you've been to anyone else with a different opinion on this subject.
Everyone else's opinions matter to them, just like your opinion matters to you.:)

[Ian]

If it doesn't matter to you why did you remove (or why was it removed) your original post?:secret:The one were you talked of being late for your fast pass return time, because it was your childs first trip to disney, and you wanted to see Mickey's Philhar Magic first.:confused: I'm confused. Are you talking about a post in this thread or a separate thread altogether?

Because there have been no posts removed or deleted from this thread. You can tell because there's no little trash can icon next to the thread title on the main page.

[Buttercup]

Hmmm... something still doesn't seem right. But I'm going to need some time with a pencil and paper and photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one to figure this out. Don''t have the time now. I'll be back.
Here it is in a nutshell:
Because the Rider Switch pass is for ANY kids (or adults with special needs) that can't be left alone outside a ride to wait for the rest of their party, regardless of their height, some people are collecting Rider Switch Passes for their family and using them as free fast passes. They can show the CM that "Yep, we've got kids in our party" to get a Rider Swap pass, then 20 minutes later, they use the Rider Swap pass to let their kids ride the ride.
This way, they don't have to 'spend' a fast pass on their park ticket -- you know how you can only collect so many fast passes every few hours? Well this alleviates that.

[MickeysBestPal]

If it doesn't matter to you why did you remove (or why was it removed) your original post?:secret:The one were you talked of being late for your fast pass return time, because it was your childs first trip to disney, and you wanted to see Mickey's Philhar Magic first.:confused: I find it very odd that only after that post is gone, that you claim to "rarely use fast pass and always try to be on time", especially with how critical you've been to anyone else with a different opinion on this subject.
Everyone else's opinions matter to them, just like your opinion matters to you.:)

You are very confused.

I wrote no (nor removed) posts about my child or Philharmagic.

And... you are the one who is upset about Disney's own policy.

I'm just attempting to explain why it doesn't matter when a FP is used.

Again, why does it matter to you when someone else chooses to use a FP?

[MaxPower]

Again, why does it matter to you when someone else chooses to use a FP?

It's simple.

When people "choose" to return when they want rather than during the window printed on their Fastpass ticket -it can cause LONG Fastpass lines, which defeats the whole point of Fastpass in the first place.

This often happens at Soarin' & Rock N Roller Coaster. Their Fastpass lines will be a 30 or 40 minute wait because a lot of people are coming back later in the day rather than returning during their window.

When a lot of people do this, the Fastpass lines grow and grow making for long waits.

If everyone followed what's printed on their tickets, the Fastpass line all day long would never be more than 10 minutes.

Would you rather wait 0-10 minutes or 30-40 minutes? I'd rather wait less. That's why I use Fastpass.

And that's why it matters.

[BrerGnat]

It's simple.

When people "choose" to return when they want rather than during the window printed on their Fastpass ticket -it can cause LONG Fastpass lines, which defeats the whole point of Fastpass in the first place.

This often happens at Soarin' & Rock N Roller Coaster. Their Fastpass lines will be a 30 or 40 minute wait because a lot of people are coming back later in the day rather than returning during their window.


It's not that simple, though.

Often, when you see long fastpass lines, it's either due to a LARGE group returning at the same time (I'm talking 50 people groups here) or it's due to the simple fact that certain rides are not optimized for FP usage, like Soarin and Toy Story Midway Mania.

The thing is, even if everyone who had a FP didn't return in the window, they would still return in a sporadic, well spaced manner. You are talking about a park being open 8-12+ hours. Everyone isn't going to come back at the same time, outside of the windows.

The thing is, as much as one tries to argue it, returning later than the window has NO measurable impact on the FP line. The line ebbs and flows all day, and all it "promises" is a faster wait than the standby line, which it always delivers on. There is no promise that FP means you'll board in 5, 10, 15, or even 30 minutes. It just means that you'll get on faster than the people in the standby line.

[W24toISMdirect]

It would never occur to you to try to bend any of the rules regarding how it worked.

The rule regarding how it works, as defined by Disney, who issues the Fastpass is that you can return at any point after the start time. I didn't make this rule they did.


it said your return time was between 2pm and 3pm, you assumed that 3:01PM would be too late -pure and simple.

And you assumption would be wrong.

Here's the thing... noone complaining about this is looking at it critically. For one thing, your assuming that noone really cares about riding Splash Mountain, and they're only getting a Fast Pass so they can deliberately drag there feet about riding as such everyone who got a Fast Pass in a given day is going to show up exactly 15 minutes before the park closes which is literally the only way that it's mathematically possible to have any significant back up of the Fast Pass line.

Here's what happens the Real World:

Three people get fast passes with a 1:00 to 2:00 return:

Person A returns at 1:00
Person B returns at 1:30
Person C returns at 5:00

And this affects nothing... because of the people who had 5:00 to 6:00 returns:

Person A returns at 5:00
Person B returns at 5:30
Person C returns at 9:00

And yes I'm aware that the FastPass line a RnRC is always 20 to 30 minutes, but logic dictates that if it's ALWAYS 20 to 30 minutes, then it's not because of un-even FP return distribution, it's because there are in general more Fast Passes given that the ride can support in an hour.

And let me just say how SICK TO DEATH I am about people on this board declaring that the times printed on a ticket matter by virtue of being times printed on a ticket, when the company that printed the ticket, never declared such a rule. I find it personally discusting how pre-occupied people are with the idea that someone else might be getting something that could by some logic somehow maybe be perceived as unfair. It's like your just looking for some reason to be outraged... even on a Disney World message board.

[Scar]

My apologies for staying off topic.

This is the loophole.

Normally, person #1, 2, 3 and 4 would all get FP's (and therefore not be able to get any more FP's for a couple of hours).
In this case, however, person #1 ONLY gets a FP at the kiosk.
Then, they go to the CM and say "We need a Rider Switch Pass please" for the rest of the group - persons #3 & 4 are kids so the CM hands it over no questions asked.

Now, person #1 enters the FP lineup with his FP, and persons #2, 3 & 4 enter the FP lineup as well with their Rider Switch pass, under the guise that "Oh, our kids #3 & 4 decided to ride afterall"...
Or, perhaps, if they're not trying to "skirt" the system, maybe kids #3 and 4 actually did change their mind and decide to ride.

Regardless, that means, they've only "spent" one fast pass within their group, and now persons #2, 3 & 4 are able to go collect more fast passes immediately around the park without having to wait the standard amount of time to collect more.But you're not taking into account that the first time through, they would have to wait in standby, and that two people in the party would not be allowed to ride that first time. Why shoud Disney care which 3 people use the pass the second ride?

[wdwfansince75]

As long as we are off topic...
We have always had fast passes when asking for the rider swap...We have never used the standby line. On the first ride...all riders enter using the fast pass line....all riders turn in their FP's...On the second ride, the non-rider from the first ride turns in the swap pass...and their FP...the other riders accompany the swap pass holder...in the FP line. We have always been asked for FP's on the first ride, so we have never had to concern ourselves with the supposed loophole....on at least one occasion, the FP was not turned in on the second ride...and was used outside the window...by me.

Now, back on topic.....
My view: When Disney first started FP's, they may well have thought that everyone would return within the window...but didn't enforce it...and found that the system works relatively smoothly...perhaps they fine tuned it, and release more FP's earlier in the day, knowing that some will use the FP as early as possible, or at least within the window, some will use it later, and some will not use them at all...I usually wind up not using several on every trip...I sometimes give them away, but sometimes, realizing that some of us Out of Window guests may be causing longer FP lines, and not using it will save everyone in the queue at least one space.
While I do recall some attractions having relatively short FP lines, I do not sense that the FP lines are getting longer than in the past. In my view, the system works...sometimes, "Better" is the enemy of "Good Enough".

In general....I see no reason to fix a system that isn't broken....

[MickeysBestPal]

When people "choose" to return when they want rather than during the window printed on their Fastpass ticket -it can cause LONG Fastpass lines, which defeats the whole point of Fastpass in the first place.


Very unlikely.

That's why I asked why you were worried about guests choosing to use their FP "after-the-window."

There's no way to know how many guests that you see a FP line are using "in-window" FP's or "after-window" FP's.

There would only be a lot of "assuming" going on.

[Terra]

I need a bucket of popcorn and a :beer: watching this thread! It's like watching 2 great debate teams!:party:

Seriously though, lots of passion on all sides and I do see all points. What it boils down to for me personally is that I choose to stay within the time framework to be respectful to other visitors who also have FP. I wouldn't show up early or late for dining reservations and expect to get served before those who were ahead of me, so it's no different with this [for me personally again! My own opinion ;)]

[MickeysBestPal]

I need a bucket of popcorn and a :beer: watching this thread! It's like watching 2 great debate teams!:party:

Seriously though, lots of passion on all sides and I do see all points. What it boils down to for me personally is that I choose to stay within the time framework to be respectful to other visitors who also have FP. I wouldn't show up early or late for dining reservations and expect to get served before those who were ahead of me, so it's no different with this [for me personally again! My own opinion ;)]

And, that's really very fine. You are not hurting anyone when you use your FP within-the-window.

But don't misinterpret opinion versus the facts of how these things actually work.

(I'm trying to state these things precisely so that they are very clear.)

Every time you use your FP, YOU are "stepping in front of other guests."
In-the-window, or after-the-window, you are making others wait for you because you showed up at the FP line, ready to ride.

The reason is that you actually arrived at the attraction BEFORE those other guests.

Let's look at an attraction like Pirates of the Caribbean that does not even offer FP.

Are you being rude to those other guests who entered the line after you did because you are standing in line ahead of them?

Not everyone will arrive at the park (or at a particular attraction) at the same time.

If other guests chose to sleep in, or eat breakfast, or ride Dumbo before arriving at PotC, then they made the choice to ride behind you, because you walked to PotC earlier than they.

The same goes for FP.

If you got a FP earlier than other guests, you can use it DURING the Window, and push those in the standby line aside for you to ride before them.

OR-
If you got a FP earlier than other guests, you can use it AFTER the Window, and allow those guests whom you would have pushed out of the way had you arrived earlier, to go ahead and ride BEFORE you.

When you do finally arrive at the FP line, you are simply "pushing aside" those guests who happen to be in the standby line at that point.
But (OTOH,) you have also let hundreds of other guests actually ride AHEAD of you, already.

And, one more time, I'm not preaching that anyone "NEEDS" to use their FP after-the-window.
It's just that it really doesn't matter too much to anyone else WHEN you choose to finally use your FP that day.

Disney makes the rules and they have determined that it just doesn't hurt anybody
whenever you decide to use a same-day FP.

[Terra]

And, that's really very fine. You are not hurting anyone when you use your FP within-the-window.

But don't misinterpret opinion versus the facts of how these things actually work.

(I'm trying to state these things precisely so that they are very clear.)

Every time you use your FP, YOU are "stepping in front of other guests."
In-the-window, or after-the-window, you are making others wait for you because you showed up at the FP line, ready to ride.

The reason is that you actually arrived at the attraction BEFORE those other guests.

Let's look at an attraction like Pirates of the Caribbean that does not even offer FP.

Are you being rude to those other guests who entered the line after you did because you are standing in line ahead of them?

Not everyone will arrive at the park (or at a particular attraction) at the same time.

If other guests chose to sleep in, or eat breakfast, or ride Dumbo before arriving at PotC, then they made the choice to ride behind you, because you walked to PotC earlier than they.

The same goes for FP.

If you got a FP earlier than other guests, you can use it DURING the Window, and push those in the standby line aside for you to ride before them.

OR-
If you got a FP earlier than other guests, you can use it AFTER the Window, and allow those guests whom you would have pushed out of the way had you arrived earlier, to go ahead and ride BEFORE you.

When you do finally arrive at the FP line, you are simply "pushing aside" those guests who happen to be in the standby line at that point.
But (OTOH,) you have also let hundreds of other guests actually ride AHEAD of you, already.

And, one more time, I'm not preaching that anyone "NEEDS" to use their FP after-the-window.
It's just that it really doesn't matter too much to anyone else WHEN you choose to finally use your FP that day.

Disney makes the rules and they have determined that it just doesn't hurt anybody
whenever you decide to use a same-day FP.

Totally cool, I understand your points. They're your opinion just as my view is mine. You choose to view it one way, I view it another :)

I will continue to show up within the hour time frame because for me that is plenty of time and allows for much flexibility. If others can't or don't want to do that, they are free too since Disney is not enforcing anything but early arrivals. Problem solved :)

[Dsnygirl]

Which is precisely why, if this stupid "NextGen" garbage turns out to be half as bad as it sounds, my DVC's are going on the market and we'll be taking our vacations at the beach from now on.

I refuse to be forced to plan out every split-second of my vacation just to avoid being shut out of rides, character meet-and-greets, and restaurants ... you know, all the stuff I'm actually, well, there for? :mad:

I totally agree... while I don't mind so much having certain ADR's, because they are for a much-sought-after restaurant and it guarantees us a spot, I certainly wouldn't want this for my entire vacation, and for every experience in it. If I have to know from sun-up to sun-down where I am supposed to be every second of every day, forget it... that's work, not a vacation.

As much as we love Disney, if it comes down to losing the ability to relax and enjoy ourselves, the loss of spontanaiety (which most often is the most fun...) and is nothing more than a list of scheduled "to do" events, we won't be frequenting Disney at all.

I would think the higher-ups in Disney would realize this... we can't be the only ones saying it's a foolish, bad idea. Why would anyone EVER think the masses want their lives scheduled on vacation?? I think there will be a general revolt if it goes this way... maybe the loss of revenue would speak louder.... :(

And PS - going off topic like the rest - we have used our FP's both ways... we used to always show up on time, before we knew it wasn't necessary. And depending on where we are in the park, how our meals have gone timing-wise, how our girls are doing... we still generally show up on time, but at others choose not to. And we have never noticed FP lines being any longer or shorter, one way or another. I have never felt that we waited longer than a SB line... in general, I feel our FP's have always worked the way they were supposed to, regardless of whether we've arrived at the designated time or not. Just my :twocents:....

[Soph and Han's Mom]

Wow...very interesting thread!

Wanted to bump this up...anyone heard any info on rolling out the xpass? Or is there still no new news?

[Disney Hungarian]

Wow...very interesting thread!

Wanted to bump this up...anyone heard any info on rolling out the xpass? Or is there still no new news?
Disney did register some new names recently. Word on the street (bus driver told me) is that it is a couple (2) months away still. :secret:

[Goes4FastPass]

It's always so tempting to jump into threads like this because my family enjoys WDW vacations and we are anxious to know what changes are coming.

I've never been one to stretch the rules and try to beat things without regard for others like making multiple ADRs for the same meal.

But, I pause when I'm told things like "Fastpass is a priveledge not a right".

Fastpass is an attempt to solve a problem. Walt Disney World is not just famous for Mickey Mouse. it's famous for long lines.

Those long lines are not just bad for repeat business. People standing in line are not buying merchandise or food.

I say again, I don't want to be some kind of cheater but I don't want to spend thousands of dollars (thousands) to spend days looking at a minute by minute schedule of attraction reservations, restaurant reservations, show reservations, alarm clocks and spreadsheets instead of the faces of my grandchildren.

While we speculate and rant and worry about what may not happen I hope the real decision makers at the Walt Disney Company remember that while they may call us "guests", the real world calls us customers.

There are many wonderful families that go on wonderful vacations year after year and make wonderful memories and would never dream of going near Walt Disney World.

Our last Disney vacation was wonderful. We returned a bit late for a few FastPasses. The world did not end. Goofy did not run off with MInnie.

[Soph and Han's Mom]

Thanks for the info, Hungarian!

We'll be there for our annual visit in June...curious if we'll see anything regarding xpass.

I, for one, think it's a pretty cool concept...assuming it's eventually available to all resort levels. We'll be at the GF for our next stay and if any aspects of it are available to try, we will certainly give it a go.

[KatrinaJ91]

So the original title of this thread was x-pass. All that was talked about was the fast pass. I still do not know what the x pass is, when it will start or anything about it! Can someone talk about what this is? Thanks!

[Ian]

x-pass is some code word or Internet jargon for the new Fastpass 2.0 system they're supposed to be installing as a part of Next-Gen.

The long and the short of it is, you'll be able reserve Fastpasses from home via some online system similar to the way you do now for your ADR's.

[disneynarula]

I am a spread sheet planner so having some things planned out ahead of time would work for me. I would love to know that between 10:30 and 11:30 on Jan 3rd that I am going to be able to ride Toy Story Mania without a long wait in line. I can't imagine it's going to be for all the attractions but maybe the more popular ones.

[Soph and Han's Mom]

I agree, disneynarula.

It's definitely not something I'd use every day of my trip...I like to schedule a few 'down' days too. But knowing I had a few days to schedule everything I wanted to see and get it done when I had planned to is very appealing to me.

[Pat Ryan]

The people arguing that the end time on a fastpass should be firm just like rules and don't want to accept the facts that coming back late doesn't cause any extra wait time except for one exception that I can think of off the top of my head...
- the fast pass line after the window went to zero riders

It could possibly lead to longer lines at the end of the day if a lot of guests skipped their time and came back really late (but the lines earlier would have been shorter).

Otherwise, and as it was pointed out a few times... by coming late you've only allowed other guests to "cut" in front of you. If they held to that cutoff, then everyone after you would have moved up a spot in line for everyone that didn't show up.

If that were the case, you can assume that Disney would start issuing extra fastpasses in each window to account for people getting a fastpass and then being excluded for being late.

The "good until" time is just them using social engineering to encourage people to come back at a certain time to help keep the wait times more predicatable.

[RBrooksC]

IMOHO, I think this is a great idea. What it looks like Disney is doing is clamping down on things like this. The ADR issue where people would spread their ADRs out over several restaurants, coming back "whenever" for the FP time, etc. I believe when Disney gets these things implemented properly and the guests properly taught, waits for things will go down. The wait for a table at an ADR will be reduced because the restaurant will know exactly how many customers they have. Also, with FB, the actual flow of riders will be correct, because Disney will know exactly how many riders will be through during that return time. And I am sure that they will have some QR code or RF ID eventually to track all of things things and adjust things as necessary.

Remember, you don't have to get a FP, so if you don't like being told you can only go back during the hour, then, don't use it.

[Ian]

<RANT>

You know the more I hear/read about this stupid xPass thing the more I really hate it.

According to what I'm reading, they're going to be greatly expanding the number of attractions/experiences that have FP/xPass from the 28 they have now up to like 70. Not only that, but it will apparently include the ability to reserve times to meet characters in advance, choice parade/fireworks viewing spots, and other in-park experiences, as well.

It looks like they'll be adding rides like IASW, Pirates, Haunted Mansion, the Speedway, the new Seven Dwarfs mine coaster, and even the hub-and-spoke rides to the list of stuff you can advance book at Magic Kingdom.

I dunno ... I guess I'm just old fashioned or out-of-touch or something, but the idea that I'd have to book all these things in advance and schedule my trip out to the nth degree or otherwise be forced to wait in endlessly long lines just really doesn't sound very appealing to me at all. I really, really feel bad for my three younger kids who are going to grow up with this horrible, overscheduled, rigid, rushing from point A to point B WDW instead of the relaxed, fun, spontaneous one I grew up with.

And before someone chimes in with the inevitable, "Well if you don't like it don't use it" baloney, let me just shut that down in advance. With all these people out there willing to schedule their vacations down to the minute, if you don't participate you're certain to be relegated to the worst viewing spots for parades and fireworks, waiting in endless lines so your kids can meet the characters, and slowly wasting away your vacation waiting in 70 minute standby lines for the Magic Carpets of Aladdin.

Blech. No thanks. If this turns out like I think it will, I can say with 100% certaintly that we'll be selling our DVC memberships, dropping our annual passes, and spending our vacation dollars elsewhere. I don't know who the people are who think this would make for a fun-filled family vacation, but I'm most decidedly not one of them. :ack:

</END RANT>

[Soph and Han's Mom]

I guess I can see both sides of the argument, and understand how this is definitely not the sort of thing for everyone. I don't see it ruining Disney for me and my family.

I have never seen Disney as a completely relaxing, fly by the seat of your pants sort of vacation. It may have been at one point in time, but in the 15 years I've been spending summer vacations there, I have found that my family and I get a lot more out of it when we plan a couple of days that are pavement pounding and very scheduled. That being said, we also have a lot of down days where we wander, sit by the pool, or shop. If I have the ability to schedule a few of my days to the hilt and guarantee that we get in all that we want to do/see during our trip, I will certainly do so. That will ultimately make it a little MORE relaxing for me, if you can believe that.

Just another perspective.

[Dopey's Girl]

<RANT>

You know the more I hear/read about this stupid xPass thing the more I really hate it.

According to what I'm reading, they're going to be greatly expanding the number of attractions/experiences that have FP/xPass from the 28 they have now up to like 70. Not only that, but it will apparently include the ability to reserve times to meet characters in advance, choice parade/fireworks viewing spots, and other in-park experiences, as well.

It looks like they'll be adding rides like IASW, Pirates, Haunted Mansion, the Speedway, the new Seven Dwarfs mine coaster, and even the hub-and-spoke rides to the list of stuff you can advance book at Magic Kingdom.

I dunno ... I guess I'm just old fashioned or out-of-touch or something, but the idea that I'd have to book all these things in advance and schedule my trip out to the nth degree or otherwise be forced to wait in endlessly long lines just really doesn't sound very appealing to me at all. I really, really feel bad for my three younger kids who are going to grow up with this horrible, overscheduled, rigid, rushing from point A to point B WDW instead of the relaxed, fun, spontaneous one I grew up with.

And before someone chimes in with the inevitable, "Well if you don't like it don't use it" baloney, let me just shut that down in advance. With all these people out there willing to schedule their vacations down to the minute, if you don't participate you're certain to be relegated to the worst viewing spots for parades and fireworks, waiting in endless lines so your kids can meet the characters, and slowly wasting away your vacation waiting in 70 minute standby lines for the Magic Carpets of Aladdin.

</END RANT>

I totally agree with you Ian...why on Earth would you ever want to schedule every second of your trip? And why should I be punished basically for not wanting too? That is what this all seemingly boils down too to me. Some of my best vacation memories are things I could never have planned! I love WDW, but this type of commando vacation planning is not something I'm willing to do.

[KatrinaJ91]

We never schedule our days...we are on vacation! We get up in the morning and when everyone is ready, we decide what we feel like doing that day. I would HATE to have to schedule ride times, etc....what if we decide to do something different or are running late? This is not vacation if it feels like work!

[Goes4FastPass]

Folks, I don't want to make spreadsheets. It's not my choice of hobby.

( :secret: I make spreadsheets at my job - that's how I get the money so I can go on vacation :mickey:)

It just seems like to manage all that a family vacation requires at WDW that it requires a spreadsheet or a Passporter book or something similar.

I guess it possible to travel to WDW and only eat hot dogs and wait in line an hour every time we want to ride a headliner but that doesn't sound like a vacation to me just like the "spreadsheet" doesn't sound like a vacation to many of you.

[KatrinaJ91]

When we go to Disney, we eat at many wonderful restaurants and do everything that we would ever want to do without having to plan out every minute! We have had several TS experiences without booking ADRs 180 days in advance. We work the Fastpass system for everything it is worth and do everything we want to do in a day. I just don't feel the need to have all the stress of planning out every minute when you can realistacally have a magical day by going with the flow!

[BrerGnat]

I am going to reserve judgment until details have been released.

I think this could work very well *IF* (and only if) there is a small window in which you can obtain advanced fastpasses. For example, if you can only make FP "reservations" up to 24 hours in advance, and ONLY from your resort room. Those would be parameters I could deal with, and would actually probably be very useful and a positive thing. It would be great to wake up on vacation, decide you are going to, say Epcot that day, and be able to reserve your Soarin' Fastpass from your resort room in your pajamas, at a time you plan you'll be in the park anyway. That could be great!

I can't get behind the ability to make FP reservations more than a day in advance. That's just ridiculous. I already think the 180 day advanced ADR thing is WAY over the top. I like Disneyland's 60 day policy much better.

Since it appears that the FP reservations will be strictly for resort guests, perhaps we can hope that the window won't be so huge. I would be satisfied if they only allowed these to be done after the point of check in. That would be acceptable.

[Aurora]

Here's what I don't get, and maybe this has been discussed before. But is there some great demand out there to be able to schedule your vacation every available minute? How does this make the "guest" happier? Where are the hordes of people demanding to make advanced FP reservations for IASW or Enchanted TIki Room?

If it comes to fruition, I think most people won't want to use the system, but they will be forced to if they want to experience anything. How many people really want to make ADRs 180 days out, but feel that if they don't, they won't get in to eat anywhere? It's not true, but it leads to a huge herd mentality. Wouldn't it be great if NO ONE used ADRs and you could walk up and eat anywhere you wanted?

Which leads me to this thought: I can think of only one entity this benefits -- the company -- and only two reasons why -- crowd control and data gathering.

As Ian said, blech.

[Ian]

I think it's safe to say that, with a reported investment of over $1 billion in NextGen, the company must see huge profit potential in this.

That means either A. they expect to somehow reap additional income from it or B. they expect to be able to dramatically lower costs as a result of implementing it. Those are the only two things that motivate TDO.

What the guest thinks or wants doesn't enter into it as far as I can tell.

[BrerGnat]

I think it's safe to say that, with a reported investment of over $1 billion in NextGen, the company must see huge profit potential in this.

That means either A. they expect to somehow reap additional income from it or B. they expect to be able to dramatically lower costs as a result of implementing it. Those are the only two things that motivate TDO.

What the guest thinks or wants doesn't enter into it as far as I can tell.

I agree. There has to be a financial motivator.

We still don't even know if these reserve FP will even be free! Maybe they will charge for that ability? And if that's the case, you can bet that everyone won't jump on board. But, some will. And maybe that will be enough to justify the implementation.

And, if they do truly automate the system, they will save a lot of money on staffing. Problem is, you can't truly automate anything 100%.

[Aurora]

I was thinking the same thing as you, Natalie. Except that I don't think paying for the FPs will deter hardly anyone who would be willing to use the system in the first place.

I'm sure Disney has watched Universal's and Six Flag's own pay versions of FP for many years and wondered whether it would fly at Disney. Maybe they've finally figured that it would.

[Ian]

I was thinking there's a good possibility they're going to use xPass as a way to convince people to book packages through WDTravel.

I suspect they're losing a lot of money because of sites like INTERCOT that have let the cat out of the bag that their package deals are basically a ripoff.

They may be looking at xPass as a value-add they can tack on to packages that might entice people to start booking them again.

[Stu29573]

I see this as a huge mistake....but then again, I've seen many things they have done lately as huge mistakes.

As for paying for it, all I can say as in an economy that is not treating my family well, I am feeling increasingly marginalized by the "drain every drop out of the customer (not "guest" any longer)" mentality of Disney.

On a practical note, I can see how it could be a disaster. On our last trip they decided to change to computer systems over on the day we arrived. They lost our reservations, special requests, and dining plans. I spent over four hours in lines dealing with issues (not to mention the time on my cell in the parks arguling with CM's who always assured me that they had everything worked out- but didn't) Bottom line, we were upgraded at no cost and we got a free night, but the magic was lost. I now saw Disney as a huge impersonal company like any other.

Now imagine that happening with XPass....

[Jared]

I have plenty of thoughts on this topic and probably will return to this thread later to write more. But for now, I think it's safe to say that Disney could not care any less about us. Which is to say, this is not a company that has any desire whatsoever to make its fans happy, particularly in Florida. Whether it's true or not, people in the company have clearly concluded that alienating people that love the product enough to post on a message board will do nothing to their bottom line -- even if we stop visiting altogether.

Walt Disney World has become the Disney corporation's cash cow. It continues to generate monumental profits regardless of Disney's expenditure or investment. It has become a playground, essentially, for nostalgia-seekers and those who don't know any better. We can debate the quality of the current Imagineering team, but we can't question their desire to redevelop the Florida parks. This comes from the higher-ups.

If you haven't had a chance to visit Disneyland yet, I strongly recommend you make the trip. It's a place where quality is still the biggest priority. I do not know when that will happen again in Florida.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Rut-roh, Ian read Jim Hill again, didn't you??? LOL...


Disney did register some new names recently. Word on the street (bus driver told me) is that it is a couple (2) months away still. :secret:

It is supposedly more than two months away, more like 2013... But then again, this is Disney/TDO, and if they can make a buck quicker, well.... :)


Thanks for the info, Hungarian!

We'll be there for our annual visit in June...curious if we'll see anything regarding xpass.

I, for one, think it's a pretty cool concept...assuming it's eventually available to all resort levels. We'll be at the GF for our next stay and if any aspects of it are available to try, we will certainly give it a go.

I don't think you'll be seeing xpass that fast... 2013 maybe at the earliest...


If you haven't had a chance to visit Disneyland yet, I strongly recommend you make the trip. It's a place where quality is still the biggest priority. I do not know when that will happen again in Florida.

Visit Disneyland before 2015 because they will have xpass then too...

Everyone is calling doom and gloom over this but truth is, no one knows what xpass will feature... This information came from Jim Hill, the man who passes out tons of salt with his blog posts... How do we know he wasn't fed a bunch of nonsense from someone in the company who doesn't like this idea and is only using Jim Hill as a way to try to derail the project??? Jimmy-boy has been used before in such a manner, to try to cause such an uprising in Disney fans that projects have been cancelled... But then again, maybe he has legit info... Let's see how this plays out...

But, there is one thing we can all agree on here, I think, and that this is really nothing more than a cash grab on TDO's part trying to pull money out of the pockets of unknowing tourists... Rizzo's comment in the queue of MuppetVision 3D states TDO's feelings perfectly "WHAT DO THEY KNOW? THEY ARE JUST TOURISTS!"

I just want to add, I am glad others are finally coming around to seeing what I have been saying for a while now... TDO DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOU!!!

[Jared]

I just want to add, I am glad others are finally coming around to seeing what I have been saying for a while now... TDO DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOU!!!
It's ridiculous that anyone ever thought otherwise. This is a case of unrequited love. That's how this relationship has always worked, and that will never change.

[DisneyGiant]

I am going to reserve judgment until details have been released.

I think this could work very well *IF* (and only if) there is a small window in which you can obtain advanced fastpasses. For example, if you can only make FP "reservations" up to 24 hours in advance, and ONLY from your resort room. Those would be parameters I could deal with, and would actually probably be very useful and a positive thing. It would be great to wake up on vacation, decide you are going to, say Epcot that day, and be able to reserve your Soarin' Fastpass from your resort room in your pajamas, at a time you plan you'll be in the park anyway. That could be great!

I can't get behind the ability to make FP reservations more than a day in advance. That's just ridiculous. I already think the 180 day advanced ADR thing is WAY over the top. I like Disneyland's 60 day policy much better.

I might be able to get into this 24 hour scheduling - from the resort room - and only if its limited to something like 2 a day.




How many people really want to make ADRs 180 days out, but feel that if they don't, they won't get in to eat anywhere? It's not true, but it leads to a huge herd mentality. Wouldn't it be great if NO ONE used ADRs and you could walk up and eat anywhere you wanted?



I don't mind making the ADR reservations 180 days out - because we have specific restaurants we like, and we (usually a party of 7) want to make sure we can get in.

So I am a planner in that regard - and non-Disney people have been known to make fun of me because I know where & when I am going to eat each day.

I agree with you both though that scheduling every attraction out is just plain old ridiculous. I have to say - the minute we walk into the park - we usually know what attraction to visit first - but are often side-tracked by the magic going on all around us - look there's Mickey - or look - streetmosphere people - or look there's garbage can guys at Epcot. This spontenaity would be lost if we were on an attraction schedule!

And I'd love to know how the tour groups would be accommodated.

My line tolerance for any attraction is usually 30 minutes. And if this new system makes that worse - I, too, may be looking to spend my vacation dollars elsewhere.

[Stu29573]

It's ridiculous that anyone ever thought otherwise. This is a case of unrequited love. That's how this relationship has always worked, and that will never change.

And yet its the illusion that the company really needed to maintain in order to set itself apart from everyone else. Everyone knew it was bunk to a certain degree, but at least they tried. They used to really work at it, but now they don't bother much of the time...

[Ian]

Rut-roh, Ian read Jim Hill again, didn't you??? LOL...I did see Jim's story, yes, but I have heard rumblings about some of the same things from some other places.

Also, the substance of Jim's story really wasn't much ... just some attraction names. That's not the part I have the issue with. It's the entire concept of having to plan out my trip to the nth degree 180 days in advance that I hate.


I don't mind making the ADR reservations 180 days out - because we have specific restaurants we like, and we (usually a party of 7) want to make sure we can get in.Yeah, but even you yourself said, " ... to make sure we can get in."

If Disney didn't have this absurd 180 day advance dining reservations thing you wouldn't have to fret six months in advance about being able to get your reservations all set. I'm sure you'd prefer to be able to just walk up at whatever time happens to work for you, put your name in, and get a table with a reasonable wait time. That's what should be happening. Although I'm hearing that the recent policy change with the $10 deposit the ADR situation has improved quite a bit.

[DizneyFreak2002]

It's ridiculous that anyone ever thought otherwise. This is a case of unrequited love. That's how this relationship has always worked, and that will never change.

Sadly Jared, people actually do think TDO cares about the guests and are actually giving guests what they want... Of course, these people are also ok with a broken yeti, light bulbs out for months, paint chips in easy to see places, an entire show scene in Splash Mountain not working, etc., etc....

[DizneyFreak2002]

And yet its the illusion that the company really needed to maintain in order to set itself apart from everyone else. Everyone knew it was bunk to a certain degree, but at least they tried. They used to really work at it, but now they don't bother much of the time...

They don't bother because people will continue to inhale the pixie dust and never want to admit anything is wrong at WDW... So why try?? Do as little as possible, charge as much as possible, remove experiences and replace them with cheaper experiences, cut maintenance, do not care about show... As long as the bottom line is increasing (and the only reason it increased last year was because of the price increases not because they sold more merchandise or increased attendance in WDW) then who cares... And THAT is TDO's attitude...

[DizneyFreak2002]

I did see Jim's story, yes, but I have heard rumblings about some of the same things from some other places.

Also, the substance of Jim's story really wasn't much ... just some attraction names. That's not the part I have the issue with. It's the entire concept of having to plan out my trip to the nth degree 180 days in advance that I hate.

Yeah, but even you yourself said, " ... to make sure we can get in."

If Disney didn't have this absurd 180 day advance dining reservations thing you wouldn't have to fret six months in advance about being able to get your reservations all set. I'm sure you'd prefer to be able to just walk up at whatever time happens to work for you, put your name in, and get a table with a reasonable wait time. That's what should be happening. Although I'm hearing that the recent policy change with the $10 deposit the ADR situation has improved quite a bit.

Dude, I'm with you on the 180 day out thing... I hate it with a passion... I hate having to decide what park I want to be in 6 months out... I have done it and still have enjoyed my trips... But I hate it...

You are right too, about fretting about ADRs... Which is why I have made a decision after my last trip to no longer book ADRs... it is either counter service or I leave property... I find a lot of the table service restaurants to be blah now anyway (and way over priced)... I enjoyed my lunch at Flame Tree more than my lunch at Yak N Yeti (and I actually love Yak N Yeti)... If I want to eat at a restaurant, I will just take my chances and walk up... With this new policy, I see a lot more open ADRs than before... And Universal does 30 days out for dining, which works PERFECT in my opinion... I much prefer to book a month out than 6 months out...

I probably won't take part in xPass, as I am trying to give Disney less and less of my money (they still get my DVC payments though)... But I am also open to seeing the official word from Disney as to what xpass will be and how much it will cost (if it is even available to DVC members cause, I feel, we get left off of a lot of things, but maybe that is just me)...

[gratuspater]

(if it is even available to DVC members cause, I feel, we get left off of a lot of things, but maybe that is just me)...[/QUOTE]

That's putting it mildly, IMO, considering the the high initial cost of DVC, and the QUICKLY rising dues (BLT)(low annual dues being the main reason we choose BLT). I mean not even a ticket discount on anything less than a annual pass?! Come on TDO, give your most loyal customers a break, even if we can only make it down once a year! The nickel and diming does take away some of the magic, for me anyhow.

[Ian]

It's so funny ... the cycle is so predictable it's almost to laugh. This happens over and over in the history of corporate America (and probably corporate elsewhere as well) and has even happened previously to the Walt Disney Company!

Build up brand equity to the point that you have a huge pool of stable, reliable clients and all of a sudden the suits just cannot help themselves from starting to look for ways to exploit them for profit. Slowly but surely you allow your brand quality to erode, your image to take hits, and eventually ... it can take decades sometimmes ... you wake up and realize you no longer have that huge pool of stable, reliable clients. They've all gone elsewhere.

Read up on the history of General Motors for another textbook example of how this goes down. Same exact thing, really.

It'll catch up to TDO eventually. There's no doubt. It might take another 10 or even 20 years, but one day at some point in the future they'll wake up to find all the people (and their money) gone. But what do they care? By then they'll all be gazillionaires and they'll retire with massive golden parachutes to some beach somewhere and leave someone else to clean up the mess. And the really sad part is that once the mess is cleaned up, the cycle still start all over again.

[Polynesian Dweller]

That's putting it mildly, IMO, considering the the high initial cost of DVC, and the QUICKLY rising dues (BLT)(low annual dues being the main reason we choose BLT). I mean not even a ticket discount on anything less than a annual pass?! Come on TDO, give your most loyal customers a break, even if we can only make it down once a year! The nickel and diming does take away some of the magic, for me anyhow.

It is precisely because you are loyal customers that DVC members don't get some of the promotions. You are going anyway so why put money into promotions for you. Promotions are marketing tools not giveaways and Disney is a business not a charity. Since DVC members are coming anyway there is nothing to be gained for Disney by a promotion.

Now if DVC members stop being loyal then Disney will change and that's the scenario I think Ian is talking about. But until then Disney has no motivation.

[Jared]

It's so funny ... the cycle is so predictable it's almost to laugh. This happens over and over in the history of corporate America (and probably corporate elsewhere as well) and has even happened previously to the Walt Disney Company!

Build up brand equity to the point that you have a huge pool of stable, reliable clients and all of a sudden the suits just cannot help themselves from starting to look for ways to exploit them for profit. Slowly but surely you allow your brand quality to erode, your image to take hits, and eventually ... it can take decades sometimmes ... you wake up and realize you no longer have that huge pool of stable, reliable clients. They've all gone elsewhere.

Read up on the history of General Motors for another textbook example of how this goes down. Same exact thing, really.

It'll catch up to TDO eventually. There's no doubt. It might take another 10 or even 20 years, but one day at some point in the future they'll wake up to find all the people (and their money) gone. But what do they care? By then they'll all be gazillionaires and they'll retire with massive golden parachutes to some beach somewhere and leave someone else to clean up the mess. And the really sad part is that once the mess is cleaned up, the cycle still start all over again.
Everything you're saying here is definitely true, Ian, but I don't necessarily think the situation is irrevocable. All it takes is a strong leader to fall into the right position and use his authority wisely. What has happened at Disneyland over the past decade or so is proof of that. The state of the California parks under Paul Pressler and Cynthia Harris was just as dire as it is in Florida today. The fans organized, demanded change and now Disneyland is in the best shape of its long and illustrious history. I don't think that's inconceivable at Walt Disney World, even if it seems unlikely at the moment.

Honestly, I don't even view this X-Pass thing as a prime example of Disney's mismanagement of the Florida resort. I suspect it will be a godsend for thousands of park-goers who will relish the opportunity to plan their vacations to the tiniest detail. You and I aren't those people, Ian, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. After countless passes on pretty much every Disney attraction, I can deal with going on fewer rides each time I visit. How many times can I honestly see The Haunted Mansion on a four-day trip? I don't continue to visit Walt Disney World for the rides -- I keep coming back for the atmosphere and the visceral experience the Disney parks still deliver. If I only cared about rides, I would spend my time at Universal, which undoubtedly has the upper edge in attraction design these days. I think that's virtually inarguable at this point.

But if Disney continues to allow its infrastructure to rot (I'm looking at you, monorail system) and operates its attractions at an embarrassingly low show quality, that's when even the biggest fans will stop coming. Fixing the darn yeti would go a long way in affirming everybody's faith.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Everything you're saying here is definitely true, Ian, but I don't necessarily think the situation is irrevocable. All it takes is a strong leader to fall into the right position and use his authority wisely. What has happened at Disneyland over the past decade or so is proof of that. The state of the California parks under Paul Pressler and Cynthia Harris was just as dire as it is in Florida today. The fans organized, demanded change and now Disneyland is in the best shape of its long and illustrious history. I don't think that's inconceivable at Walt Disney World, even if it seems unlikely at the moment.

But are fans of WDW willing to organize and voice their opinions loud enough to effect change in TDO/WDW??? Doubtful... Look around on other sites... The minute anyone dare speaks of bad show, they get drowned out, called names, ridiculed, other members ask and demand that member get banned.... Sometimes even the site owner talks these people down... The question you have to ask yourself is why??? Are they inhaling the dust or are they plants from Disney's social media division trying to shut up dissenters?? It happens.. believe me, it happens... They are everywhere.. Disney is watching... And they try to shut up the people who are trying to bring their lack of keeping the Disney standard to light... I'll give you two examples, one involves me...

On one site I used to read daily, a thread was started about some of the neglect on the WDW property... The person had an inside knowledge of how things worked in WDW, especially inside the TDO building... He even knew some of the management and had friends on the inside... Well, the thread was civil.. People expressed their displeasure with the condition WDW has become under Meg's stewardship... He posted pictures, as did other members... Then, the drowning out of voices started... New members suddenly appeared and began bashing the people who were posting about the sad state of affairs... They began name calling, they trolled for lack of a better word... Baited arguments... Then other members got into it, members who have been on the site for years but had 1 or 2 posts... They started attacking the dissenters.. The site owner eventually shut the thread down due to the bickering... The thread was going good for a few months.. Where did these new people come from and why??? Why all of a sudden??? These are questions you need to ask yourself...

Now for the example with me... I tried to get a site going, one that would be the voice of the fans organization allowing them to speak up and get the change... I was going to join up with another site owner who started his own site after a falling out with members of a different site... he worked on a design for the site I proposed... We worked out what kind of content we wanted... He recruited a few people from his new site, ones with contacts and ones who lived in WDW area, to help out... I owned the site, he owned the hosting... We had things going good.. Then one day he emails me telling me he has to abandon the project because "he didn't want to ruin his reputation inside Disney" ... It is no secret Disney shuts down sites... it is no secret they have their high priced lawyers send letters to sites they deem "anti-Disney"... question is, why the selective enforcement??? Now I am not saying this guy abandoned our project because Disney told him too... I believe he was concerned Disney would remove him from his Disney lifestyle (getting perks to talk glowingly of WDW)... Even his site has changed... The people who were always critical of WDW and TDO's half-brained decisions have recently been shut up (for lack of a better term)...

Take this, add in their social media propaganda machine, and the podcasters who have an unhealthy obsession with living a Disney lifestyle, and the voices of fans who want to affect change and hold WDW to their own Disney standards, get drowned out...


But if Disney continues to allow its infrastructure to rot (I'm looking at you, monorail system) and operates its attractions at an embarrassingly low show quality, that's when even the biggest fans will stop coming. Fixing the darn yeti would go a long way in affirming everybody's faith.And I don't know if this would ever be true either... There are still too many people who will just refuse to ever see the bad in Disney... Read some sites (which I am sure you already do) and you'll see they are out there.. Yeti is broken?? So what, it is Disney... An entire show scene in Splash Mountain isn't working?? The chickens in the riverboat scene are not moving and look like they have no heads??? So what, it is Disney... Who cares they don't invest in maintenance or infrastructure as they used to?? It is Disney... These attitudes exist in abundance... Try to get these people to see the bad show and you are deemed a doom and gloomer, a hater, funnier yet: a Universal Studios plant, or someone wasting 1000's of dollars on a Disney vacation just to find something to complain about...

TDO loves, LOVES those guests... And as long as they can fool people into believing they still produce the best product ever, they will never have to try to be the best at what they do again...

[gratuspater]

It is precisely because you are loyal customers that DVC members don't get some of the promotions. You are going anyway so why put money into promotions for you. Promotions are marketing tools not giveaways and Disney is a business not a charity. Since DVC members are coming anyway there is nothing to be gained for Disney by a promotion.

Now if DVC members stop being loyal then Disney will change and that's the scenario I think Ian is talking about. But until then Disney has no motivation.

Yes, I think you are right, on all points.It is just to bad that instead of rewarding customer loyalty, it is taken for granted. And yes, I think it would take something like a mass exodus of DVC owners to get their attention. But if this x-pass turns out to be a buyable fast pass option, then I will be one step closer to that move. I enjoy the parks, the rides, and the atmosphere but at some point the cost to fun ratio doesn't balance and heck my kids are just as happy to spend all day at the pool, which I can do without taking a plane, at a resort hotel just as nice, and with many entertainment options within driving distance and all for thousands less. I think its the atmosphere I would miss the most. Hopefully it won't come to that.

[Ian]

It is precisely because you are loyal customers that DVC members don't get some of the promotions. You are going anyway so why put money into promotions for you. Promotions are marketing tools not giveaways and Disney is a business not a charity. Since DVC members are coming anyway there is nothing to be gained for Disney by a promotion.

Now if DVC members stop being loyal then Disney will change and that's the scenario I think Ian is talking about. But until then Disney has no motivation.I agree with you completely. I'm not sure it's the right approach, but I definitely think this is how Disney sees it.

If it was me, I think I'd do a bit more to reward my most loyal guests (a la the airlines) rather than just taking for granted that they're going to keep showing up forever no matter what I do.

There's little doubt that at some point it'll bite them square in the ... err ... you know. ;)

[Mousemates]

On one site I used to read daily, a thread was started about some of the neglect on the WDW property... The person had an inside knowledge of how things worked in WDW, especially inside the TDO building... He even knew some of the management and had friends on the inside... Well, the thread was civil.. People expressed their displeasure with the condition WDW has become under Meg's stewardship... He posted pictures, as did other members... Then, the drowning out of voices started... New members suddenly appeared and began bashing the people who were posting about the sad state of affairs... They began name calling, they trolled for lack of a better word... Baited arguments... Then other members got into it, members who have been on the site for years but had 1 or 2 posts... They started attacking the dissenters.. The site owner eventually shut the thread down due to the bickering... The thread was going good for a few months.. Where did these new people come from and why??? Why all of a sudden??? These are questions you need to ask yourself...

interesting...there are a couple of nefarious possibilities that come to my "conspiracy theory habituated mind" here...not sure which one you are actually suggesting though.

The first would be that "Disney site monitors" were somehow directly involved in turning the thread hostile so that the site owner would close down the thread.

The second would be that the site owners themselves "felt pressure" to not let the negativity go on too long...(maybe even creating users and posts that break their rules so they can shut it down.).

If that is potentially the case, such pressure might not be even be direct (from disney) , seeing as how most of the sites having disney advertising banners... the simple imagined threat of a loss of that advertising revenue (due to their site beocming too critical) might provide strong motivation to find a way to not let the criticism linger.

Are these the kinds of things you are hinting at here...or am I (as happens from time to time) out in left field concerning my reading of a post?

[Jared]

It's not a conspiracy, exactly, but Disney's crack social media team absolutely monitors certain sites and clandestinely attempts to silence the growing dissent in the fan community. There have been a couple "Spirited" threads across the Internet mysteriously shut down under rather bizarre circumstances for this reason. Disney fan sites have a bizarrely symbiotic relationship with the company, evidenced by the Disney banner ads adorning supposedly impartial sites.

I know all about your site but did not know the circumstances that led to its failure. It's a real shame.

Look, this site never had threads like these until recently. The tide is changing, even if it takes time.

[ronandjulie]

If you want WDW to change, it's easy. Stop going. Go elswehere. WDW will not change if they don't have to.

[Ian]

If you want WDW to change, it's easy. Stop going. Go elswehere. WDW will not change if they don't have to.Sadly, this is almost definitely the case.

We can grumble, write letters, send emails, complain to Guest Relations, and all that, but at the end of the day it's a heckuva lot cheaper for TDO to send you away with a few free Fastpasses than it is for them to do things right.

As someone mentioned above, about the only hope there is is if some Disneyland-style turnaround can happen, but because of the dramatic differences in the guest base between the two resorts I don't really see that happening.

[BrerGnat]

As someone mentioned above, about the only hope there is is if some Disneyland-style turnaround can happen, but because of the dramatic differences in the guest base between the two resorts I don't really see that happening.

And that won't ever happen at WDW.

At Disneyland, when the fans complain, Disney listens. They have to. The locals and AP holders are their bread and butter. There are over a million AP holders and growing at a rapid pace. They have no choice but to do stuff to make them happy. It's a different culture at Disneyland...a culture that remembers its roots.

If there was a mass exodus of AP holders from Disneyland who suddenly stopped going and decided not to renew, Disney would be in HUGE trouble, as much as they like to "complain" that there are too many AP holders as is.

[Jared]

As someone mentioned above, about the only hope there is is if some Disneyland-style turnaround can happen, but because of the dramatic differences in the guest base between the two resorts I don't really see that happening.
Ian, it's time to move past this rationale. It's an excuse that has been spewed on the Internet for so long that it has simply been accepted as fact. The idea that Walt Disney World guests are mostly tourists and Disneyland guests are mostly locals is a myth. It may be based in fact -- it may even have been true at one point -- but don't all myths stem from at least a degree of truth? Disney knows very well that this idea of Disneyland being the "locals" park is a convenient excuse to justify inaction in Florida. It wouldn't at all surprise me if Disney's social media team is the origin of this story.

Look, I'm not saying that Disneyland isn't overrun with pass-holders. I'm not saying that Disneyland doesn't have a larger percentage of "locals" in the park on a daily basis than Disney World. But unless we're counting guests coming from Northern California, Nevada, Arizona and Colorado as "locals," the facts don't back up the narrative.

Remember that Southern California is a considerably better vacation spot than Central Florida. Whereas people spend a week at Walt Disney World, most guests stop at Disneyland for a day or two as part of a larger California vacation. This doesn't mean their locals -- it means they're smart enough to enjoy everything the region has to offer. Not to mention the influx of Asian and Australian tourists who rarely visit Walt Disney World because of the distance involved.

There are tons of dedicated, obsessive fans of the Florida resort. That's why sites like this one exist. There are infinitely more active discussion forums devoted to Walt Disney World than to Disneyland. There are also a zillion vacation club owners who have devoted a ridiculous sum of money to the Florida parks.

I don't buy this guest distribution theory for a second. But as long as most Disney fans accept it, I agree with Ian and Natalie that nothing will change.

[DizneyFreak2002]

interesting...there are a couple of nefarious possibilities that come to my "conspiracy theory habituated mind" here...not sure which one you are actually suggesting though.

The first would be that "Disney site monitors" were somehow directly involved in turning the thread hostile so that the site owner would close down the thread.

The second would be that the site owners themselves "felt pressure" to not let the negativity go on too long...(maybe even creating users and posts that break their rules so they can shut it down.).

If that is potentially the case, such pressure might not be even be direct (from disney) , seeing as how most of the sites having disney advertising banners... the simple imagined threat of a loss of that advertising revenue (due to their site beocming too critical) might provide strong motivation to find a way to not let the criticism linger.

Are these the kinds of things you are hinting at here...or am I (as happens from time to time) out in left field concerning my reading of a post?

I'm sure a lot fo the advertising banners comes from Google ads or any of the other ad services... When the thread is sponsored, that is a different story... Disney doesn't sponsor threads as a way to "remain neutral..."

Disney monitors sites, trust me on that... Again, just something to ponder... When Universal made some announcements in January, and Disney's one more Disney day announcement fell flat, the community basically laughed at Disney and praised Universal... What happened??? Post after post, thread after thread, about all things positive at Disney... Posts bashing Universal... Coincidence???

I do truly believe a few site owners and podcasters prefer a Disney lifestyle over a realistic one.. So, they will do anything they can to promote Disney no matter what.. Again, I won't name names but I always said there is a certain podcaster who would praise Disney even if Disney nuked half of the United States and all of Europe... Try putting a negative comment during his newscast chats, and see how fast you are booted or ignored or even mocked by his minions... It is rather sad...

What I am trying to say is, Disney DOES plant people on websites as a way to shut up the dissenters... Disney's social media team is a propaganda machine... Try taking them on... They will find a way to shout you down and shut you up...

[DizneyFreak2002]

It's not a conspiracy, exactly, but Disney's crack social media team absolutely monitors certain sites and clandestinely attempts to silence the growing dissent in the fan community. There have been a couple "Spirited" threads across the Internet mysteriously shut down under rather bizarre circumstances for this reason. Disney fan sites have a bizarrely symbiotic relationship with the company, evidenced by the Disney banner ads adorning supposedly impartial sites.

I know all about your site but did not know the circumstances that led to its failure. It's a real shame.

Look, this site never had threads like these until recently. The tide is changing, even if it takes time.

Those Spirited posts are on sites that had a deep connection to Disney in one way or another... Isn't a coincidence those posts disappeared... it is either:
1) Disney forcing the site owner to shut him up or 2) site owner afraid Disney won't give him/her freebies anymore or 3) site owner afraid he won't be privy to inside information therefore cannot "break" Disney news...

The negative threads are growing... There is a great reason for that... People (fans mostly) are noticing the decline... Whether it is the sad state of Splash Mountain,Soarin's movie/screen being filthy causing bad show, a string of lights out on the roof of the Grand Floridian for months, now strings of lights out at the entrance of Magic Kingdom, or the enforcement of the fast pass return time (not a bad thing in my opinion) to paying for xPass or what ever the final version is called, people are waking up... I agree with Ian, sooner or later this is going to bite TDO in the back side... Will ti drop Disney from number 1 in Orlando??? No.. but I am willing to wager Universal (and SeaWorld in a smaller way) will continue to eat into Disney's attendance numbers (outside of MK) and will continue to put Disney to shame in the attractions department while TDO's decisions revolve around making the most money by offering the least...

[DizneyFreak2002]

Sadly, this is almost definitely the case.

We can grumble, write letters, send emails, complain to Guest Relations, and all that, but at the end of the day it's a heckuva lot cheaper for TDO to send you away with a few free Fastpasses than it is for them to do things right.

As someone mentioned above, about the only hope there is is if some Disneyland-style turnaround can happen, but because of the dramatic differences in the guest base between the two resorts I don't really see that happening.

While I mostly agree with you that the only way to get change in WDW is to not spend money there, I also believe fans can have an impact on the decisions... TDO needs to be embarrassed on a national level though... That is where the problem lies... They don't care if Jason Garcia writes a negative article in the Orlando Sentinel... Becuase the OS will write 10 positive ones to Jason's one negative... However, have you seen what happened to Habit Heroes??? In Innoventions, Habit Heroes tried to promote healthy eating habits... The villains?? Hugely obese and fat humans... Several blogs, well read ones, took Disney to task over their portrayal of morbidly obese people being villains... Well, Habit Heroes has now been closed for a reworking...

If certain things can get a national, or better, world wide attention, TDO would change their decisions... But getting this attention is difficult at best... And even then, the social media hounds come out to try to get attention away from the negative press...

[DizneyFreak2002]

And that won't ever happen at WDW.

At Disneyland, when the fans complain, Disney listens. They have to. The locals and AP holders are their bread and butter. There are over a million AP holders and growing at a rapid pace. They have no choice but to do stuff to make them happy. It's a different culture at Disneyland...a culture that remembers its roots.

If there was a mass exodus of AP holders from Disneyland who suddenly stopped going and decided not to renew, Disney would be in HUGE trouble, as much as they like to "complain" that there are too many AP holders as is.

Thank Al Lutz for getting the change started in Disneyland... He has an outlet and very well placed inside contacts, and he was able to rally the troops...

Also, from other insiders, the ratio of AP/locals to foreigner/non-local visitors to Disneyland has shrunk... Disney loves to tout a 70% local to 30% non-local attendance split.. However, others are saying that is no longer the case, it is now much closer to 50/50, maybe even tipping to the non-locals now... Disney will never release their true attendance numbers so they can continue to skewer the numbers all they want... I will never believe Disney when they try to provide the "facts" because they don't allow you to see their actual numbers...

[Jared]

I write for a national publication. It would take a gaffe of proportions to get these problems written about in the mainstream media. Disney is too small of a niche for most of these outlets to justify the story. Even the Aulani debacle, which was unbelievably embarrassing for the company, didn't make our newspaper.

But I do agree with one thing: If a story appeared in The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal criticizing Disco Yeti, I guarantee something would change. Disney would have to respond.

[Jared]

Also, from other insiders, the ratio of AP/locals to foreigner/non-local visitors to Disneyland has shrunk... Disney loves to tout a 70% local to 30% non-local attendance split.. However, others are saying that is no longer the case, it is now much closer to 50/50, maybe even tipping to the non-locals now... Disney will never release their true attendance numbers so they can continue to skewer the numbers all they want... I will never believe Disney when they try to provide the "facts" because they don't allow you to see their actual numbers...
Bingo. The 70-30 breakdown is a complete myth. I would wager that the scale has titled in favor of non-locals. At the very least, it's around 50-50.

But look at what this says about how Disney is able to distort the truth and push their message. There are extremely reputable people on sites like this one who are convinced that the Disneyland guest distribution story is true and they continue to post the narrative as fact. That's some pretty impressive spin right there.

[BrerGnat]

Bingo. The 70-30 breakdown is a complete myth. I would wager that the scale has titled in favor of non-locals. At the very least, it's around 50-50.

But look at what this says about how Disney is able to distort the truth and push their message. There are extremely reputable people on sites like this one who are convinced that the Disneyland guest distribution story is true and they continue to post the narrative as fact. That's some pretty impressive spin right there.

I'm sorry, but where do you get your information from? Disney does not release numbers indicating how many AP holders it has, and how many visitors are local vs. not. And what is local anyway? I'd say local is anywhere within driving distance, and that opens up a HUGE area.

I lived down there from 2001 to 2011. I was a local and an AP holder for that entire time, and I lived in Orange County very close to DLR for 7 of those years. I can tell you with MUCH certainty that a very large percentage of visitors on any given day are AP holders of one kind or another. Doesn't matter if they live locally or not. Lots of residents of Northern CA, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, and Arizona are AP holders too, and they come a few times a year. All you have to do is look at the Blockout days calendar, and plan a visit on a day when EVERY AP besides the Premium is blocked out. The parks are EMPTY. I've seen it firsthand too many times to discount how much of an effect the AP holders have on the crowd levels at the resort.

The advent of the "Southern CA Select" Annual pass made it affordable for ANYONE living in the area to be a passholder. This is why the numbers have increased so much in recent years. Much of the So. Cal population is not wealthy, and Disneyland was out of reach for most, but this pass made it possible for a HUGE number of people to suddenly become AP holders.

Now, Disney has a problem. They have too many passholders. It's not a "myth". It's a fact. Look at the parking situation. They are working on ways to pare it down a bit, since DLR has FINALLY become what they wanted it to be 10 years ago...a multi day vacation destination. They are raising the prices considerably every year. They are tinkering with changing the way APs work, to making them a "monthly membership fee" that is open ended.

Bottom line in all this is that they needed to boost attendance a long time ago. They improved the resort as a whole, and it worked. Now, they have more "locals" to contend with than they'd like (because, after all, those "locals" never spend any money in the parks, according to Disney). They want the locals out...but they are precisely what keeps DLR going, so it's a relationship that Disney needs to maintain. In the slow time, the locals are there daily to pick up the slack.

If you tick off the locals at Disneyland, you have a problem. And, Disney knows it. I guarantee you'd not have seen the boost in AP numbers over the past decade if Disney allowed the DLR to remain in the state it was in in 2001.

[ronandjulie]

It's funny that many people say that DLR is overrun with AP while here in Central Florida, we are bombarded with commercials enticing us locals to come to WDW and even to buy AP. If you don't think that WDW watches it competitors closely, you're mistaken. Universal, Sea World and Busch Gardens have been offering a monthly payment plan to purchase AP forever, while WDW has just recently allowed that. There will always be the multitude of tourists that come to WDW, that's a given, but if the locals decide to spend their money elsewhere, it might make a difference. Besides that, the AP for the other parks is way, way cheaper than WDW soooo going to Universal and buying my way to the front every line is not that expensive. if you were buying plane tickets, rooms, food, etc. that would cost a small fortune, but for us that live within weekend distance, you cannot beat going to a theme park and not waiting in any lines. Talk about magical. Universal even offers an AP with ExpressPass built right in. I really love WDW but we find ourselves going to Universal and Busch Gardens more and more every year and less to WDW. It's sad. Broken rides, poor maintenance, long lines, Gigantic South American tour groups everywhere, etc. We are seriously thinking about not getting any passes next year for WDW. 2013 might be the first year snce 1970 that I don't go to a Disney park. We'll see.

[Terra]

It's funny that many people say that DLR is overrun with AP while here in Central Florida, we are bombarded with commercials enticing us locals to come to WDW and even to buy AP. If you don't think that WDW watches it competitors closely, you're mistaken. Universal, Sea World and Busch Gardens have been offering a monthly payment plan to purchase AP forever, while WDW has just recently allowed that. There will always be the multitude of tourists that come to WDW, that's a given, but if the locals decide to spend their money elsewhere, it might make a difference. Besides that, the AP for the other parks is way, way cheaper than WDW soooo going to Universal and buying my way to the front every line is not that expensive. if you were buying plane tickets, rooms, food, etc. that would cost a small fortune, but for us that live within weekend distance, you cannot beat going to a theme park and not waiting in any lines. Talk about magical. Universal even offers an AP with ExpressPass built right in. I really love WDW but we find ourselves going to Universal and Busch Gardens more and more every year and less to WDW. It's sad. Broken rides, poor maintenance, long lines, Gigantic South American tour groups everywhere, etc. We are seriously thinking about not getting any passes next year for WDW. 2013 might be the first year snce 1970 that I don't go to a Disney park. We'll see.

:number1: Hey neighbor! I'm in Lake Wales!

We are seasonal pass holders here and it does well for us. I do agree about some of the long lines. I will say though I do love WDW world the best and have only been to other Florida themeparks a handful of times and just don't like them [just a personal preference].

But I personally do like the X Pass idea. But I'm game with whatever WDW does. I can see the pros and cons of it though as well. But it's not enough of an issue to get me riled up for sure. But that's the beauty of us living in Florida. I can certainly see for people who live out of state and plan vacations. That would be a bit much.

[DizneyFreak2002]

I'm sorry, but where do you get your information from? Disney does not release numbers indicating how many AP holders it has, and how many visitors are local vs. not. And what is local anyway? I'd say local is anywhere within driving distance, and that opens up a HUGE area.

I lived down there from 2001 to 2011. I was a local and an AP holder for that entire time, and I lived in Orange County very close to DLR for 7 of those years. I can tell you with MUCH certainty that a very large percentage of visitors on any given day are AP holders of one kind or another. Doesn't matter if they live locally or not. Lots of residents of Northern CA, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, and Arizona are AP holders too, and they come a few times a year. All you have to do is look at the Blockout days calendar, and plan a visit on a day when EVERY AP besides the Premium is blocked out. The parks are EMPTY. I've seen it firsthand too many times to discount how much of an effect the AP holders have on the crowd levels at the resort.

The advent of the "Southern CA Select" Annual pass made it affordable for ANYONE living in the area to be a passholder. This is why the numbers have increased so much in recent years. Much of the So. Cal population is not wealthy, and Disneyland was out of reach for most, but this pass made it possible for a HUGE number of people to suddenly become AP holders.

Now, Disney has a problem. They have too many passholders. It's not a "myth". It's a fact. Look at the parking situation. They are working on ways to pare it down a bit, since DLR has FINALLY become what they wanted it to be 10 years ago...a multi day vacation destination. They are raising the prices considerably every year. They are tinkering with changing the way APs work, to making them a "monthly membership fee" that is open ended.

Bottom line in all this is that they needed to boost attendance a long time ago. They improved the resort as a whole, and it worked. Now, they have more "locals" to contend with than they'd like (because, after all, those "locals" never spend any money in the parks, according to Disney). They want the locals out...but they are precisely what keeps DLR going, so it's a relationship that Disney needs to maintain. In the slow time, the locals are there daily to pick up the slack.

If you tick off the locals at Disneyland, you have a problem. And, Disney knows it. I guarantee you'd not have seen the boost in AP numbers over the past decade if Disney allowed the DLR to remain in the state it was in in 2001.

The information comes from people who have real contacts inside the company who give them real numbers... Disney's propaganda machine spews false figures for their own marketing purposes... Fact is the 70-30 split is a lie and is more like 50-50 now... They skewer things to fit their agendas... And people buy it...

Anything within driving distance is local??? Then I guess I am local to Disneyland too since I can technically drive to California from NJ... Or maybe I am a central Florida local since I can drive to WDW in 15 hours... There has to be a cut off... And the cut off used to be southern California.. Now Disney expands local to half the U.S.... Ask youref why??? So they can continue to skewer their numbers for their agendas... LIES, LIES, LIES... and Disney spews tons of lies... Truth is, the local/tourist split is now closer to 50/50...

[Jared]

Quoted for truth. The numbers come from extremely reputable individuals with a proven track record of providing accurate and reliable information. You can choose to keep believing whatever you want, but you're playing exactly into the Disney marketing team's goals. If the truth is suppressed, Disney can continue scrimping the way it has for years.

To be clear, I don't for a second begrudge Disney. A company certainly has the right to run its business however it deems appropriate. I am a Walt Disney World annual pass-holder and continue to visit the parks regularly. That should tell you that the decline in quality has not yet reached the so-called tipping point where Disney loses my dollars. But I recognize that at this rate, that day will come sooner than later. I wonder if Disney itself realizes that threshold.

The information comes from people who have real contacts inside the company who give them real numbers... Disney's propaganda machine spews false figures for their own marketing purposes... Fact is the 70-30 split is a lie and is more like 50-50 now... They skewer things to fit their agendas... And people buy it...

Anything within driving distance is local??? Then I guess I am local to Disneyland too since I can technically drive to California from NJ... Or maybe I am a central Florida local since I can drive to WDW in 15 hours... There has to be a cut off... And the cut off used to be southern California.. Now Disney expands local to half the U.S.... Ask youref why??? So they can continue to skewer their numbers for their agendas... LIES, LIES, LIES... and Disney spews tons of lies... Truth is, the local/tourist split is now closer to 50/50...

[DizneyFreak2002]

Now Jim Hill reports xPass will be rolled out in a matter of weeks, not months like he originally reported... Ohh, it will be open to everyone but you will be limited with how many ride reservations you can book...

[Jared]

Now Jim Hill reports xPass will be rolled out in a matter of weeks, not months like he originally reported... Ohh, it will be open to everyone but you will be limited with how many ride reservations you can book...
I still say that X-Pass isn't this devilish invention as it has been portrayed in the fan community. I don't know how much I'll use it, but I actually think a lot of people will love the system.