Cold Stove League [Archive]

WDWfanatic742

12-08-2010, 07:53 PM

Baltimore is Baltimore, that's all I have to say about that :D

This is kind of off topic, but Mel reminded me about this. What is it with Florida baseball teams? IDK much about Tampa Bay's team other than they play in one of the hardest divisions in any pro league so it might be different for them but they hardly ever keep any of their good players (See Marlins after 1997 and 2003 World Series), and then they complain that nobody ever comes to the games. Yet they are building a new stadium down here for the ten people that actually go to games and using tax payer money to pay for it even when they have millions left over when it was reported a few months ago by ESPN.

There's nothing to be excited about when you are going to trade the good prospects that you have next year to the Yankee's or Red Sox.

Hammer

12-08-2010, 11:09 PM

<crickets>

That's the sound of the Phillies' off season moves thus far.

Oh no wait we did lose our only right handed power bat to the Nationals. How could I forget? :shake:

I'm not killing the Phillies for not re-signing Werth. The minute he signed Boras as his agent, I knew all he wanted was to go to the highest bidder, not necessarily a team which gave him a chance to win. Think about it; he has a WS ring, so now he just wanted the money and the Nationals obviously overpaid for him (like A-Rod to the Rangers overpaid). I wonder how he is going to handle the pressure of having to be "the man" for the Nationals. He was able to sit back and be a complimentary piece in Philly with a lot less pressure.

Great news here in the Bay area. We are losing Crawford, Pena, probably Bartlett and Soriano too, and get to keep Upton. Yay.

Update- Bartlett has been traded to the Padres for 2 relievers. My mother tells me tonight "Carlitos is gone to the Cubs" (Pena was her favorite Ray). Mel, my Dad felt like you do about Upton. I can't post here what he would call him, as it breaks the Terms of Service :D !

This is kind of off topic, but Mel reminded me about this. What is it with Florida baseball teams? IDK much about Tampa Bay's team other than they play in one of the hardest divisions in any pro league so it might be different for them but they hardly ever keep any of their good players (See Marlins after 1997 and 2003 World Series), and then they complain that nobody ever comes to the games. Yet they are building a new stadium down here for the ten people that actually go to games and using tax payer money to pay for it even when they have millions left over when it was reported a few months ago by ESPN.

There's nothing to be excited about when you are going to trade the good prospects that you have next year to the Yankee's or Red Sox.

We had a discussion about this awhile back. The Rays have a horrible lease at the Big Orange and the city is not real willing to let them out of it. Every survey taken of locals tells them that if they built a stadium in Tampa, the attendance would increase. Unlike those of us up North who will travel anywhere for our sports teams, Floridians do not believe in traveling over bridges to go to most sporting events.

WDWfanatic742

12-09-2010, 01:41 AM

Ian

12-13-2010, 07:11 AM

I'm not killing the Phillies for not re-signing Werth.No, I'm not either actually. First off, I do not think he's "werth" anywhere near what the Nats paid him. I mean really ... who signs a guy who's about to turn 32 to a seven year contract??

However, I will kill them if they don't replace him with someone at least in the neighborhood of comparable. They've got to have a right-handed power bat in their lineup to break things up. And also, let's face it ... standing pat with a team that hasn't been good enough the past two seasons is not what we want from Amaro.

Melanie

12-13-2010, 07:33 AM

The one thing I do know about the Rays is that the stadium is supposed to be the worst ever. Not to mention when that US Stadium Food report came out a few months ago (If I remember right), it had the most violations of any stadium...

Exactly! Long before we lived here, we came over to St. Pete from WDW for a game. I remember instantly feeling it was the worst baseball atmosphere we'd ever been in to that point. Now only Miami beats that. ;) Of course, that will no doubtedly change with their new stadium, which looks awesome by the way. I've warmed to the Trop just a bit, but only because I'm now a fan of the team. Thank goodness there is spring training and tons of minor league ball around here to satisfy our need for a true baseball experience. And yes, we only "drink" at the stadium after that report came out. :ack:

Melanie

12-14-2010, 05:37 AM

I'd say things are HOT for Phillies fans this morning. What a rotation!

Hammer

12-14-2010, 06:58 AM

Ian

12-14-2010, 07:15 AM

OMG, he came back :yay: !!!!

Ian, if you complain now about the Phillies front office, I'm personally going over the bridge and slapping you ;) !! We are going to have to deal with Dom Brown (and some guy off the scrap heap to platoon) in right field, but I think I'll live with it!Okay, but in fairness ... WHO SAW THIS COMING???!!!

Wow ... There aren't enough :yay::yay::yay: guys allowed in a single post to show how thrilled I am that Cliff's back!!!

Take THAT Yankees!!

Scar

12-14-2010, 10:21 AM

Take THAT Yankees!!I hate The Yankees as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't be suprised if some of The Yankees front office are actaully relieved they didn't land him. Don't get me wrong; he's a very good pitcher and I would take him on my team, but I don't think he's worth the $20M x 5 the Phils are going to pay him let alone the $22M x 7 years the Yanks were offering. I actually think The Yankees dodged a bullet here. Now that being said, The Phillies are certainly a better team with him.

ETA: Hold on... now I'm reading $24M X 5 years. I'm sure Halladay isn't too happy about that. At least he would be worth it.

Hammer

12-14-2010, 01:53 PM

ETA: Hold on... now I'm reading $24M X 5 years. I'm sure Halladay isn't too happy about that. At least he would be worth it.

Halladay does not strike me as an egomaniac, so I think all should be good in the clubhouse (or at least I hope so).

I don't think the mood in the Yankees organization is relieved. They have lost out on every player they had targeted (Werth, Crawford, and Lee). George is most definitely rolling over in his grave.

Pagan

12-14-2010, 02:40 PM

Hey wait a minute...I thought only the Yankees tried to "buy" championships. ;)

Melanie

12-14-2010, 04:04 PM

Hey wait a minute...I thought only the Yankees tried to "buy" championships. ;)

Love it!

Hammer

12-14-2010, 04:19 PM

Hey wait a minute...I thought only the Yankees tried to "buy" championships. ;)

Love it!

For the record, the Phillies payroll is going to be about $160 million, which is $10 million over the limit that was self imposed by the ownership group and at least $40 million less than the Yankees team salary. Rumor has it that Ruben Amaro had the okay to go over for a "very special player" and get the ownership approval beforehand. Werth does not fall under that heading (at least not in my book). They are trying to trade Joe Blanton (odd man out) and Ibanez to get rid of their salaries (about $17 million). If the Phillies were the Yankees, we wouldn't be trying to shed salary.

Mel, you wish the Rays would have done this for Crawford ;) .

Melanie

12-14-2010, 08:12 PM

Oh, and with all respect to our Phillie faithful, you won't be changing my mind on this. I was beginning to think as much last season. In the grand scheme of things with pro sports, $40 million isn't really that much. And truthfully, I don't see anything wrong with it, but don't be calling others out on it. And yes, I dislike the Yankees as much as the next guy.

Not really seeing how the Crawford situation equates.

barnaby

12-14-2010, 08:26 PM

For the record, the Phillies payroll is going to be about $160 million, which is $10 million over the limit that was self imposed by the ownership group and at least $40 million less than the Yankees team salary. Rumor has it that Ruben Amaro had the okay to go over for a "very special player" and get the ownership approval beforehand. Werth does not fall under that heading (at least not in my book). They are trying to trade Joe Blanton (odd man out) and Ibanez to get rid of their salaries (about $17 million). If the Phillies were the Yankees, we wouldn't be trying to shed salary.

Mel, you wish the Rays would have done this for Crawford ;) .

No, the Phillies are no different then the Yankees or the team I root for, the Red Sox. They are 1 of the 4 or 5 teams in the league who have legit shots at top tier guys like Lee or Crawford.
Yes, the Yankees try to shed salaries for players they don't need like Nick Johnson or not resigning a guy like Berkman this season.

The Phillies payroll with 18 players yesterday before the Lee deal was 148 mill. Add Lee's average of 24 mill and its 172 mill. They may make some moves to shed some salary but they also have to add 7 more players to fill out there contract to 25. The average MLB salary now is 3 mill. Even if they sign guys for less then the average, they will still have a payroll around 175, only around 15% less then the Yankees. Not really a big deal when you consider that the Yankees overpay players due to the NY income taxes and the fact players know the Yankees have a huge coffer of money from their TV contract.

The Phillies are the Evil Empire of the NL. It is as simple as that. And as a fan of another team that spends big bucks to put winning teams on the field to reward their fans - that is not a bad thing.
Phillies fans now have to stop the we aren't like the Yankees talk. The Phillies are not the Pirates or not even a mid-level team like the Marlins. The Phillies are a top tier spending team. And if you wanna say the Yankees are trying to buy a championship, then the Phillies are too.

Hammer

12-14-2010, 11:31 PM

Are the Phillies one of the big players now? Absolutely, but I would hold off calling them "the Evil Empire of the NL". Part of what makes the Yankees the Evil Empire is the arrogance, at least for me. The Phillies ownership nor the GM have not said anything which would make me think they are being arrogant.

Not to mention, the Phillies have had over 120 straight game sellouts. Only the Red Sox have a longer streak. I much rather they put that money into obtaining or keeping players here than making themselves (the owners, that is) even richer.

It takes just one player to get the ball rolling, and the Phillies did that with Jim Thome. Not that long ago, players had no desire to play in Philadelphia. The Phillies knew they were opening a new stadium soon and had to do something to keep people coming to the games after the newness wore off, or they would end up with a beautiful empty ballpark like PNC Park. So they overpaid to bring Jim Thome and it took off from there. It helped that Thome was the perfect ambassador, which I think why he still gets a great reception when he returns. He revitalized baseball in this town.

That is what I meant, Mel, when I brought up Crawford. Granted, I don't think they could have paid what was needed to keep Crawford, even with a hometown discount, but they could have done that with Pena.

Pagan

12-15-2010, 11:10 AM

Hammer

12-15-2010, 11:33 AM

Just out of curiosity...what have the Yankee brass said that was "arrogant". I read the NY papers all the time, and they've been pretty low key.

Legitimate question...I'd like to know what they've said that could be taken that way.

Pagan, I was speaking historically when talking about Yankee arrogance. Currently, they are being low key, simply as they have lost out on every free agent they have gone after this off season. They have to eat some humble pie.

I really like what David Wright said about it (though they interviewed him dressed like Santa). He said that the Phillies rotation is great, but the hitters in the East will need to learn to adjust. He is absolutely right and the good hitters will.

If Howard and Utley go through prolonged slumps like last year, the pitching staff could pitch phenomally and lose a bunch of games 1-0.

Pagan

12-15-2010, 12:01 PM

Pagan, I was speaking historically when talking about Yankee arrogance. Currently, they are being low key, simply as they have lost out on every free agent they have gone after this off season. They have to eat some humble pie.
I mean recently as in years. What have they said that was arrogant? Not being sarcastic...I'm really curious because I haven't recalled any arrogance. If I missed it I'll stand corrected.

I truly think it's just Yankee hatred. LOL

Hammer

12-15-2010, 12:27 PM

Pagan

12-15-2010, 12:32 PM

Could be some Yankee hatred, but Cashman is fond of using terms like "the Yankee way", which I think comes off as a bit arrogant. The players are the worst, though, now that I think about it. A-Rod can't speak without sounding arrogant, at least to me.

Just so you know, I find some of Chase Utley's comments at times to be arrogant as well and I don't like it then, either.
I'll give you A-Rod, sometimes he does come off that way. But who else? Posada, Jeter, Mo, Cano? All of them pretty much keep their mouths shut.

As for Cashman saying "The Yankee Way" I think he just means the way they do things. I can't see that as being arrogant.

Not like he's Rex Ryan or anything. :razz:

barnaby

12-15-2010, 12:47 PM

I'll give you A-Rod, sometimes he does come off that way. But who else? Posada, Jeter, Mo, Cano? All of them pretty much keep their mouths shut.

As for Cashman saying "The Yankee Way" I think he just means the way they do things. I can't see that as being arrogant.

Not like he's Rex Ryan or anything. :razz:

I am a full blown Yankee hater. I can't post what I actually call them because this is a G rated site. :D

But I agree with you. Outside of A-Fraud, who was arrogant wherever he was, I don't think the players are. I think they have a certain self-confidence about them, but guys like Jeter, Mo, and Georgie are class acts.
Same goes for Cashman, never thought of him as arrogant. Like I said, I hate the Yankees, but respect the team, the organization, and the history. And if Cashman does come off a bit off-hand at times, it probably because he a sucessful guy with a few WS rings,which to me gives him the right to have a little swagger.

Hammer

12-15-2010, 04:52 PM

There are times where I thought Cashman had a bit too much swagger. It's a fine line with me on when you are too arrogant for my taste, Yankee or not. And please don't tell me George wasn't arrogant!

Regarding the players you listed, I'm not sure I have ever heard Cano speak ;). I tend to give Mo a lot of leeway as he truly has earned swagger being the best closer of all time, bar none. Never said the players weren't classy. Arrogance does not mean that a person acts without class.

Hammer

12-15-2010, 05:00 PM

To get back on topic, did anyone see Cliff Lee's press conference today? Any thoughts?

It really does seem he really likes how the Phillies and our area. Who knew? Long way from the days of Scott Rolen ;) .

Philadelphia tourism is putting up a new billboard as part of their campaign "with love, XOXO Philadelphia"

Dear Cliff,
You are...This is.. I promised I wouldn't get choked up...

Welcome Home

With love,
XOXO Philadelphia

Melanie

12-15-2010, 05:17 PM

Okay then, to veer off topic slightly again, what is the overall point of the 'With love, XOXO Philadelphia' campaign?

Ian

12-15-2010, 06:44 PM

I'm a die hard Phillies fan, but even I have to admit that it's pretty clear the Phillies are trying to buy another championship.

They have literally cornered the market on top tier pitching in the MLB and they've done it pretty much exclusively by trading for and signing free agents. Only Hamels is home grown.

Although it is fair to point out that even with the Lee deal, the Phillies payroll is still like $50 million less than the Yankees. ;)

Like Christine, though, I worry that they've gone too pitching heavy and not worried about their lineup enough. They have some very streaky players in their lineup and they tend to go into deep, team wide funks at bad times. They could really use a reliable, solid, consistent right handed bat to help keep things moving when Utley, Howard, et. al. have their bats put to sleep.

Hammer

12-15-2010, 10:03 PM

Okay then, to veer off topic slightly again, what is the overall point of the 'With love, XOXO Philadelphia' campaign?

It is a marketing campaign by the tourism board to attract people to visit Philly. Stuff like "your lawnmower called, you have the weekend off". As the lady from the board said in a TV interview, sports showcase and bring people to visit, hence Cliff choosing Philly over NY is exciting to them.

Hammer

12-15-2010, 10:16 PM

Like Christine, though, I worry that they've gone too pitching heavy and not worried about their lineup enough. They have some very streaky players in their lineup and they tend to go into deep, team wide funks at bad times. They could really use a reliable, solid, consistent right handed bat to help keep things moving when Utley, Howard, et. al. have their bats put to sleep.

I think they'll have Joey from Northeast Philly playing right field as he bats right handed and hit .300 on the company baseball team :D. Better yet, you want to try out, Ian? I'd offer, but a) I'm a woman and b) I bat left handed. :baseball:

Seriously, I think they'll either try to get someone if/when they trade Blanton or it will be Francisco/Brown in right, which does not excite me. I just hope Howard and Utley are working real hard getting ready for next season!

kakn7294

12-16-2010, 01:38 AM

To all you Yankee haters out there - 27 World Championships and 40 trips to the World Series in 106 years of it's existence should certainly allow for some degree of arrogance, regardless of whether they bought those championships because of paying out the money for the top players. They have the money and they have the fan following to do it. I'd love to see my favorite team be willing and able to do that.

My Pittsburgh Pirates - what can I say? At least they won a World Championship tonight (and at the expense of the Yankees). Sadly, it was the replay of the 1960 World Series game 7 but hey, I gotta take what I can get! They did sign Lyle Overbay - shocking that they signed someone who's not just another "prospect" and has some proven talent in the Majors. Maybe it's a start. I can always dream... I've become good at it over the last 18 years.

Ian

12-16-2010, 08:13 AM

To all you Yankee haters out there - 27 World Championships and 40 trips to the World Series in 106 years of it's existence should certainly allow for some degree of arrogance, regardless of whether they bought those championships because of paying out the money for the top players. They have the money and they have the fan following to do it. I'd love to see my favorite team be willing and able to do that.Oh yeah, I totally agree. I mean my hatred of the Yankees is accompanied by a certain level of grudging respect for having such a storied history and being, without a doubt, one of the greatest franchises ever in sports.

And you're 100% correct ... I would love to have a franchise who went out and did everything possible to win every year. That was my complaint with the Phillies for the 20-30 years between 1980 and 2006, actually. And to some degree it's my current complaint with the Eagles ... they leave way too much to chance and don't spend the money and do everything they can to win it all.

Do I hate the Yankees? Yep. Is it based almost exclusively on jealousy? Also yep. :secret:

Hammer

12-16-2010, 12:44 PM

Well, I'm going to disagree with Ian (big surprise). I don't like people or organizations that are so brazen about buying success at the expense of others. Ian, you may think that is a fine way to act, but I don't. Do I expect that to a certain extent? Yes, but there are limits and the Yankees cross those lines at times and I think it lacks integrity. Fortunately, the Phillies have stopped short of that and I hope they never cross that line.

Scar

12-16-2010, 01:39 PM

... there are limits and the Yankees cross those lines at times and I think it lacks integrity. Fortunately, the Phillies have stopped short of that and I hope they never cross that line.Are you suggesting that The Yankees should have a self-imposed salary cap when they don't have to?

I looked up some numbers on Cot's website. Lee is now the highest paid pitcher in baseball. Pretty sad considering he's not even the best pitcher on his team.

And of the top 10 highest paid players, 3 are Yanks and 3 are Phils. The other 4 are Twins, Mets, Redsox, and Tigers... 1 each.

Hammer

12-16-2010, 02:02 PM

Are you suggesting that The Yankees should have a self-imposed salary cap when they don't have to?

No, what I am saying is that the way they act about it in the media is what I do not like. I disapprove with how they act, not so much the action itself.

And of the top 10 highest paid players, 3 are Yanks and 3 are Phils. The other 4 are Twins, Mets, Redsox, and Tigers... 1 each.

Well, Twins player must be Mauer. I guess that the Red Sox player is Crawford? Mets is Santana? No idea who on the Tigers, though maybe Cabrera? How is Werth and the Nationals not on that list?

Scar

12-16-2010, 02:18 PM

Werth is 12th, along with Hunter, Ichiro, and unbelievably Zito and Vernon Wells. Zambrano (and not Victor :rolleyes:) is 11th. Right on all other accounts.

Ian

12-17-2010, 01:49 PM

Fortunately, the Phillies have stopped short of that and I hope they never cross that line.I don't see how you can make this distinction.

First of all, you're comparing apples to oranges. The Yankees have 27 championships and countless more Series appearances. The Phillies have 2 rings and 3 appearances. How arrogant can you really get?

If the Phillies went on a run, though, and kept buying players and winning championships over and over again who's to say they wouldn't talk the same way?

I just don't see how you can say it's fine for the Phillies to go out and buy up all the talent on the market but it's not okay for the Yankees.

kakn7294

12-17-2010, 03:54 PM

So what is the point everyone is trying to make here? People are upset if a team like the Pirates WON'T spend money to bring in some talent to win games and people are upset if a team like the Yankees DO spend the money to pay for the talent to win games. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND HERE! You generally have to spend the money to have the best and the best will cost you. Am I jealous of the Yankees? You better believe it! Do I like the fact that I had to pay for my college education and have to maintain a license to go to work everyday where we save lives while making in a year 1/10 of what these guys make to play a game? Nope, but that's what we have to live with if we want to watch the game.

Pagan

12-17-2010, 04:19 PM

Personally, I'll never complain about ballplayers' salaries again after hearing about Howard Stern's new contract.

Five years, $400 million, and he only has to do three live shows a week. Do the math, that comes to $80 million a year. If he worked 52 weeks in a year, which he doesn't, that would be $1,538,462 a week. Divide that by the three shows he'll work, that's $512,821 per show.

NOW...his show is 4 hours long, so that's $128,205 an hour, to talk.

I repeat, I'll never complain about ballplayers again.

Melanie

12-17-2010, 05:46 PM

So what is the point everyone is trying to make here? People are upset if a team like the Pirates WON'T spend money to bring in some talent to win games and people are upset if a team like the Yankees DO spend the money to pay for the talent to win games. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND HERE!

I'm not upset about it either. My beef, if anyone cares, is with fans of certain teams complaining about other teams who spend the money to win. Like I said before, it doesn't bother me, and sure, I wish my team would (or maybe I should say could) do the same.

Hammer

12-17-2010, 06:59 PM

If the Phillies went on a run, though, and kept buying players and winning championships over and over again who's to say they wouldn't talk the same way?

I just don't see how you can say it's fine for the Phillies to go out and buy up all the talent on the market but it's not okay for the Yankees.

First, if the Phillies should ever become that arrogant, I would have a hard time rooting for them and I am absolutely serious.

Second, they did buy the biggest name out there for pitching, but did not buy all the talent. I seem to remember the other 2 big free agents went to other teams, one who used to play for the Phils. The Phillies organization made a choice that Cliff Lee was worth it and Jayson Werth was not, a position of which I think was a sound business decision.

So what is the point everyone is trying to make here? People are upset if a team like the Pirates WON'T spend money to bring in some talent to win games and people are upset if a team like the Yankees DO spend the money to pay for the talent to win games. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND HERE!

I actually wish there was a way for there to be a middle ground.

I'm not upset about it either. My beef, if anyone cares, is with fans of certain teams complaining about other teams who spend the money to win. Like I said before, it doesn't bother me, and sure, I wish my team would (or maybe I should say could) do the same.

The Rays could do it, if there was ever a way for them to get out of that awful contract with the city of St.Pete. The Pirates absolutely could try and do that, which really bothers me. It just takes paying extra for one player to possibly get the ball rolling, but you have to be smart in choosing that player. Overbay is a good start. The Pirates have an absolutely gorgeous ballpark (unlike the Trop) and with some winning seasons, the attendance will rise. The Pirates have that strong of a baseball history (said by the woman whose one of her all time favorite players was Roberto Clemente).