Lights of Winter - Cancelled This Year?!?

[Maleficent's Dad]

I just read that Lights of Winter, the holiday light display in Epcot leading from FW to WS, has been cancelled for this year...

Can anyone confirm this?

:(

[Ian]

Ugh ... another reduction ... they already cut out the tree lighting ceremony. What next????

[BMan62]

This has been confirmed on another site.


Lights of Winter confirmed as cancelled
Nov 11, 2009

Further to the news a few days ago that the Lights of Winter may be cancelled, it is now being confirmed to cast members at Epcot that the Lights of Winter are indeed not going to be shown.

[lockedoutlogic]

this really isn't a big deal....

however....why do they bother "cancelling" a bunch of lights on poles that they have in storage....

can't pay the maintenance guy an extra 2 hours a day to change out bulbs?

[GothMickey]

this really isn't a big deal....

however....why do they bother "cancelling" a bunch of lights on poles that they have in storage....

can't pay the maintenance guy an extra 2 hours a day to change out bulbs?

It is called providing a less magical experience to the guest but expecting said guests to pay more and more money.

[laprana]

Well that really stinks! :shake: We'll be in WDW Dec. 3-8 and it will be my Dbf's first trip this time of year. Just the other night I was telling him about all the holiday decorations and whatnot, and I told him about the Lights of Winter and how neat they were. Guess I'll have to retract that info! Thanks, Disney! :mad: Is there anything left in Epcot for the holidays besides CP and Santas around the World?

[Ian]

I'm really glad we're not going for Christmas this year. I'd just be irritated every time I walked from FW to WS.

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm really glad we're not going for Christmas this year. I'd just be irritated every time I walked from FW to WS.


oh...right....keep telling yourself that....

"glad we're not going"....that's funny:D

[Goofeygal]

Disney is starting to cut way to much out.

[lockedoutlogic]

Disney is starting to cut way to much out.

If 15 years worth of cuts is considered "starting"....then i agree with you...they're starting:mickey:

[Ian]

If 15 years worth of cuts is considered "starting"....then i agree with you...they're starting:mickey:I agree with you completely on this one. The Christmas cutbacks especially have been really, really egregious. They've jacked prices up 50% or more for just about everything while at the same time cutting back about 50% of the offerings.

Miserable.

[lockedoutlogic]

I agree with you completely on this one. The Christmas cutbacks especially have been really, really egregious. They've jacked prices up 50% or more for just about everything while at the same time cutting back about 50% of the offerings.

Miserable.

as long as there is a stock market and completely unregulated, discretionary corporate payscales....

we are not gonna see the end of this.

don't suppose bill gates or the sultan of brunei would bother to gobble up all the outstanding stock and then put me in charge, would they?

nah....probably not:secret:

[Stu29573]

This saddens me because my wife and I are planning on going for Christmas 2010. Who knows what will be gone by then???:(

[DisneyAggies]

Wow. Just wow. Is Scrooge in charge of the purse strings this year?

OT--there were NO topiaries out for F&W either this year...I was very disappointed. :(

[DVC2004]

Aw, man. All these little things add up to big disappointment. Really how much are they saving by this?

[BluewaterBrad]

It does not seem that the lights that are being discussed would be that big of an expense. Am I way off base here?:mickey:

[Iluvpooh]

Oh I love those. During Christmas is the only time I take that route to WS from FW. So sad. I also just don't see what they save by not doing this. If WDW is the same during the holidays as every other day, then what is the point of a special December trip?

[DizneyFreak2002]

I was there for MNSSHP and noticed cutbacks there too...

[DisneyFanaticDargon]

It is called providing a less magical experience to the guest but expecting said guests to pay more and more money.

Pretty sure Disney's got over 5,000,000 Christmas lights lit up for over 3 hours a night every night at Studios down the street, not to mention icicle lights on Cinderella Castle every night. Anybody else but me pretty aware about how much those little lights jack up an electric bill? I know Disney's a multi-billion dollar corporation but they can't just flip a switch to turn those things on for free. The lights at Epcot paled in comparison to the other two anyway.

[Joannelet]

wow this is really sad :( I don't even want to think of them taking other things away during the christmas season.

[Strmchsr]

From the Official Disney Parks Twitter Account:


Note:The Lights of Winter at Epcot has been enjoyed for years. But tech to operate the lights is obsolete, prompting us to retire the lights

So there's the only official comment we'll probably see on the matter.

[AvaNellMouse]

oh...right....keep telling yourself that....

"glad we're not going"....that's funny:D

That's WAAAAY funny!

I am super disappointed in this reduction. I was just showing DBF the pictures the other evening and now it won't be there. Oh, well. At least WE will be there!!! In three weeks we will be at Epcot waddling around, full of Flying Fish dinner... Whooo Hoooo!!!! :thumbsup:

[Altair]

Pretty sure Disney's got over 5,000,000 Christmas lights lit up for over 3 hours a night every night at Studios down the street, not to mention icicle lights on Cinderella Castle every night. Anybody else but me pretty aware about how much those little lights jack up an electric bill? I know Disney's a multi-billion dollar corporation but they can't just flip a switch to turn those things on for free. The lights at Epcot paled in comparison to the other two anyway.

If the formulas are correct, 5,000,000 5watt bullbs burning for 5 hours would cost about $20,000 at $0.15 per kilowatt hour. But, I believe Disney generates it's own power, so this would be much less since they don't need to make a profit on the power supplied.

[JPL]

I have to say since the Christmas Cutbacks since 2006 are continuing to mount, No more CBJ Christmas, Mickey's Twas the Night, now the Lights of Winter. As for the cost of the light most have been converted to LED so the cost is alot less now.

[SurferStitch]

I loved the Lights of Winter! It's a shame they're gone. Oh well, at least we got to see them in 2007 one last time.

I love their excuse for retiring them....the technology is obsolete. You mean, there's nothing out there that can make lights blink on and off sequentially or in sync with music? Nothing?? Geez....then what makes the Osborne lights work? Pixie dust?? I know they're different, but still, it's just programming.

[GrumpyFan]

Obsolete can be interpreted many ways.


Obsolete
Definition: no longer in use, in vogue
Synonyms:
anachronistic, ancient, antediluvian, antiquated, antique, archaic, bygone, dated, dead, dead and gone, dinosaur, discarded, disused, done for, dusty, extinct, fossil, gone, had it, has-been, horse and buggy, kaput, moldy, moth-eaten, old, old-fashioned, old-hat, old-school, out*, out-of-date, out-of-fashion, outmoded, outworn, passé, stale, superannuated, superseded, timeworn, unfashionable


Perhaps they just meant that the lights, which have been around since the early 90s, were not in good working condition. It could also mean that they didn't have the resources to get them in good working condition in time for the holidays. Consider the fact that they added the icicle lights to Cinderella's castle a couple years ago, and they have the billions of lights at DHS, these two projects alone represent over a year's worth of man hours to install, test and then take down. I think people are being very selfish and childish about the retiring of the Lights of Winter when you take these two other MAJOR light displays into account.

[valjane]

Obsolete can be interpreted many ways.



Perhaps they just meant that the lights, which have been around since the early 90s, were not in good working condition. It could also mean that they didn't have the resources to get them in good working condition in time for the holidays. Consider the fact that they added the icicle lights to Cinderella's castle a couple years ago, and they have the billions of lights at DHS, these two projects alone represent over a year's worth of man hours to install, test and then take down. I think people are being very selfish and childish about the retiring of the Lights of Winter when you take these two other MAJOR light displays into account.

Selfish and childish? I have been going to WDW for Christmas every year for the past ten, at least. I've seen so many cutbacks over the years: Country Bears Christmas, Night Before Christmas at MK, tree lighting ceremony at Epcot, no photos or pins at MVMCP, fewer Christmas decorations all over the resort...

Have prices decreased? No. They've gone up.

The castle lights do NOT make up for it.

[JPL]

I think people are being very selfish and childish about the retiring of the Lights of Winter when you take these two other MAJOR light displays into account.

I have to disagree with this statement The Light of Winter were unique and added to the atmosphere of Epcot. They might not have had all the high tech flash of the newer display at the Castle or the Osbourne Lights that were actually kept up to date. Any way you slice it a cutback is a cutback and detracts from the Magic and overall guest experience. Is wanting to get my moneys worth being childish and selfish?

[GrumpyFan]

Is wanting to get my moneys worth being childish and selfish?

Certainly not. I agree completely and I'm bothered too by the constant cutbacks and price increases and what some have termed "declining by degrees". I've seen numerous examples of this over the last 5 years or so, and it ticks me off. But, I think in this case, it might be a little different. I don't believe they would just retire a popular feature that draws it's own fanbase without good reason. I sincerely believe that this was a case of needing to replace the lights due to their age. I believe they debuted in the early 90s, so 10-15 years has probably out-lived the original intended life. I know the lights I have at home don't last that long. So, hopefully, next year will bring something new.

Disney monitors crowds, and spending pretty closely. If the retiring of these lights causes a significant change to Epcot this year, rest assured, they will replace them with something new.

[jnfr2424]

Obsolete can be interpreted many ways.



Perhaps they just meant that the lights, which have been around since the early 90s, were not in good working condition. It could also mean that they didn't have the resources to get them in good working condition in time for the holidays. Consider the fact that they added the icicle lights to Cinderella's castle a couple years ago, and they have the billions of lights at DHS, these two projects alone represent over a year's worth of man hours to install, test and then take down. I think people are being very selfish and childish about the retiring of the Lights of Winter when you take these two other MAJOR light displays into account.

Are you serious? One of the reasons why Disney has such a loyal fanbase is due in part to cutting edge technology that they do use. Every park (with the exception of AK) has something unique about them when it comes to Holiday lights and LOW was it at Epcot. If this was the case they have since January to figure something new and imporved to thrill the mass amount of people that visit during the holiday season.

If you think that this is not affecting people take a look at the Disney Blogs

http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2009/11/disney-parks-blog-weekly-recap-3/comment-page-5/

[CaptainSad]

Pretty sure Disney's got over 5,000,000 Christmas lights lit up for over 3 hours a night every night at Studios down the street, not to mention icicle lights on Cinderella Castle every night. Anybody else but me pretty aware about how much those little lights jack up an electric bill? I know Disney's a multi-billion dollar corporation but they can't just flip a switch to turn those things on for free. The lights at Epcot paled in comparison to the other two anyway.

Don't they have there own power and utilities anyway. I don't think it costs them anything like it would cost us.

[GrandFlo]

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I know it is a small thing, but it's all these "little things" that to me make Disney what it is.

But don't go by me, I still haven't gotten over there being no more Jolly Holidays Dinner at the Contemporary. Anyone remember that dinner show?....I loved it.

I also loved getting a personalized Christmas card from the GF each year.

[valjane]

I remember the dinners show, although I'm not sure I ever went to it (too young at the time maybe?)

Disney also used to leave small stockings of candy on every hotel room door Christmas morning. They haven't done that in years.

[lockedoutlogic]

Let me try to sum this up in reality:

The lights being removed is the kind of visible, little gain yielded, nickel pinching kinda cuts that WDW is now becoming notorious for...
You would think, that in a well-run business, that if you really wanted cost savings - you would look to cut staff and streamline operations/ outsourse behind the scenes and let the parks be the same.....but they don't do that. WDW is in many ways run like a badly-run state bureaucracy (cough NEW JERSEY cough PENNSYLVANIA cough NEW YORK cough)...even when they talk about making "sacrifices" and "tough choices" and "savings"....they don't go far enough. even though their employee rolls are down over the last 2 years....there is still ridiculous amount of fat (as in pork, excess, redundancy) that still wears a nametag and draws benefits. Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that they need less to operate....but they are overmanaged and have alot of poor qualities workers there that don't meet the standards of Disney. Kinda like a big frat house....or family reunion

Second,
The light show, while not really costing them much - lets be serious - was hacked because the management determined that there was no upside to it. minimal savings....but the kinda thing they do freely when the economy isn't perfect. I call it the 9/11 protocol...exploit any downswing in the market to slash and burn every extra you can eliminate....cuz in a few months or years: nobody will notice it's gone.

They have candlelight....so they figure that's enough....and...big AND....they sell dining packages with that. so that is worthwhile....
The constant additions of "add ons" while cutting out minimally expensive extras is really starting to drive me nuts....
Don't they have somekind of Nemo dining package at DAK now? shameless....why do i have to pay an inflated fixed price cost to "guarantee" a spot in a show that is rarely full?
But i'm sure there are many fish on that hook....no pun intended

Do they still do the Santas in the World Showcase anymore? Well, if they do....get your pictures soon...they'll probably show up in Hogwarts at IOA by next christmas after they get the pink slips

[big blue and hairy]

I have posted to the blog three times! I have been bounced out every time. I wasn't abusive, I didn't use any bad language, I just pointed out the error of their ways. Since WDW doesn't want to post it, I'll post it here.

Obsolete technology is a pretty lame excuse. Space Mountain is certainly considered obsolete technology by coaster builders, are you going to retire that? What about It's a Small World, Carousel Of Progress, and the Indy Speedway?

:sulley:

[lockedoutlogic]

I have posted to the blog three times! I have been bounced out every time. I wasn't abusive, I didn't use any bad language, I just pointed out the error of their ways. Since WDW doesn't want to post it, I'll post it here.

Obsolete technology is a pretty lame excuse. Space Mountain is certainly considered obsolete technology by coaster builders, are you going to retire that? What about It's a Small World, Carousel Of Progress, and the Indy Speedway?

:sulley:

anything put anywhere an officially sanciton disney property has to be smoke and sunshine.....

even when what they are doing is beyond thinly veiled and cheapskate....

it's their way. they've reduced their standards across the boards....jacked up their prices.....but they still maintain some kind of "happiness" code about what you can say....

hypocrisy at its highest form

[GrumpyFan]

I have posted to the blog three times! I have been bounced out every time. I wasn't abusive, I didn't use any bad language, I just pointed out the error of their ways. Since WDW doesn't want to post it, I'll post it here.


They may be limiting the number of responses to that particular entry. Or, they could've just been flooded with the responses, and they haven't posted them all. They moderate/filter responses which means somebody has to physically read and approve them before they go public.

[laprana]

Or, they could've just been flooded with the responses, and they haven't posted them all.

Well maybe that should tell them something about how many people are upset by this!

[GrumpyFan]

Well maybe that should tell them something about how many people are upset by this!

I'm sure they've got plenty of flack on this. I've seen numerous comments across many Disney fan-sites and nobody is happy with them on it. The question is, are they listening, do they care and will they do anything about it?

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm sure they've got plenty of flack on this. I've seen numerous comments across many Disney fan-sites and nobody is happy with them on it. The question is, are they listening, do they care and will they do anything about it?

are they listening? yes

do they care? not the slightest bit

will they do anything? yes...they are already looking at what little thing that's been in the park for 20 years they can axe to save the cost of a 6 dollar an hour employee:mickey:

[JPL]

To me the most telling part of the announcement was the timing. They waited until after the decorations had started going up and then announced it so therefore no impact will be seen. Even if people wanted to speak with their wallets and cancel their trips it's already too late. I sincerely hope every unhappy guest makes their way to guests services and flood them with complaints!

[joelkfla]

To me the most telling part of the announcement was the timing. They waited until after the decorations had started going up and then announced it so therefore no impact will be seen.
Giving the benefit of the doubt --

Perhaps the announcement was made when it was because a problem was encountered as they were preparing the lights for installation.

[dlpmikki]

I am so glad that I managed to video them last year. They were one of my favourite parts of Christmas (way better than the Osborne lights since they added all that loud music).

I may have missed something else getting canceled but if we are talking about obsolete technology what about the electrical water pageant on Bay Lake? That has to be rather older technology!

[Katzateer]

that really stinks. As mentioned, it can't cost them that much to have the same lights and music and computer program each year for this holiday tradition. It isn't like a full-scale production with characters and lots of cast members being paid.

Glad we aren't going this year-we would really miss the lights and music.

[Katzateer]

I may have missed something else getting canceled but if we are talking about obsolete technology what about the electrical water pageant on Bay Lake? That has to be rather older technology!

But the electrical water pageant is a tradition I wouldn't want to miss either! That has been at the Lake since the parks opened!!!!! Love it even if it isn't as high tech as some of the other shows.

[lockedoutlogic]

I am so glad that I managed to video them last year. They were one of my favourite parts of Christmas (way better than the Osborne lights since they added all that loud music).

I may have missed something else getting canceled but if we are talking about obsolete technology what about the electrical water pageant on Bay Lake? That has to be rather older technology!

good point....

the water pageant has avoided the axe to this point because they are whacking people so much for the rooms that it goes by....in my opinion

but nothing is sacred...so i'm sure the dragon is as nervous about pink slips as the waiters and bartenders are about the next scheme to limit their tips that is undoubtedly coming down the pipe:thumbsup:

[lockedoutlogic]

To me the most telling part of the announcement was the timing. They waited until after the decorations had started going up and then announced it so therefore no impact will be seen. Even if people wanted to speak with their wallets and cancel their trips it's already too late. I sincerely hope every unhappy guest makes their way to guests services and flood them with complaints!

another good point....
It seems they have bungled alot of announcements/ issues in their PR department over the last few years....just another side-effect of "what's good enough" for Disney these days...I guess:mickey:

[Ian]

another good point....
It seems they have bungled alot of announcements/ issues in their PR department over the last few years....just another side-effect of "what's good enough" for Disney these days...I guess:mickey:Mmm ... I think that, while they may appear bungled to us the general public, I suspect Disney was very calculating in the way they handled them.

Doing away with free valet parking for DVC members? Just do it and say nothing ... the sheeple will never notice and by the time they do it will be too late.

Doing away with a beloved Christmas lighting effect in Epcot? Keep it quiet until after the sheeple book their Christmas trips. They wouldn't dare cancel.

They know what they're doing ... they know their audience too well.

[LauraleeH]

I'm very disappointed...I hope they bring it back next year.

[Genie1953]

Just wondering....what exactly are the "lights of winter"?

[Ian]

They're the beautiful canopy of lights that used to be displayed over the walkway between Future World and World Showcase in Epcot.

[LauraleeH]

They're the beautiful canopy of lights that used to be displayed over the walkway between Future World and World Showcase in Epcot.
I didn't even know that until today. I was watching Samantha Brown's Disney Holidays from Season of Disney and she mentioned it and then I remembered this thread. I've always loved the lights, but I never knew they were called LOW until now. The more I think about it, the more sad/angry/disappointed I become.

[Genie1953]

They're the beautiful canopy of lights that used to be displayed over the walkway between Future World and World Showcase in Epcot.


Were they there about 11 or 12 years ago? I remember vividly walking under a walkway of similar lights but could never remember where it was. I was thinking that the pathway led to an area that had a mock setup of houses that had appeared in TV shows years ago. At the time I was there between Christmas and New Years with our high school band and was also very sick at the time so just decided I had imagined it since I could never find it when we were there 5 years ago.

[Scar]

From the Official Disney Parks Twitter Account:


Quote:
Note:The Lights of Winter at Epcot has been enjoyed for years. But tech to operate the lights is obsolete, prompting us to retire the lights I've just decided that the tech involved in putting up a Christmas tree in my living room and stringing it with lights and decorations is obsolete, so I'm going to retire from doing it this year.

[Polynesian Dweller]

Were they there about 11 or 12 years ago? I remember vividly walking under a walkway of similar lights but could never remember where it was.

Yep, they are at least that old and that's part of the problem. The other part is that they came from Italy. I can believe that with age they have become difficult to maintain. We don't have the same lights outside our house that we had 10 years ago because they have become obsolete. Once it becomes impossible to find replacment parts (and lights are notoriously bad for that, different socket shapes every year it seems) then the lights are done. Given that Lights of Winter are from Italy it must be even more difficult to find replacement components.

But I think the Castle lights (just new in the last couple of years) are much better, oh and yeah that would seem like Disney does occasionally add things despite all the comments on this board that they only cut back.

[Genie1953]

Yep, they are at least that old and that's part of the problem.

Well at least I know now that I am not losing it. It was just one of the more memorable things I saw on that trip so many years ago. I was so looking forward to trying to find it on our trip in 2005 and was so disappointed when I didn't find it....of course in 2005 we were there in Sept/Oct so of course I couldn't find it.

[PirateLover]

If they were planning to bring it back with updated technology, why not mention that? Why say that the technology is obsolete, and leave it at that? I refuse to believe that they couldn't have come up with a suitable replacement. There is a huge Christmas light show at the Macy's in center city Philadelphia (Formerly Wanamakers) that was refurbished with LED lighting after the 2006 holiday season, and was ready for the 2007 season. That light show has been on display since the 1950s (talk about obsolete technology!) I'm with everyone else who thinks this is just another example of Disney cutting back. Yes, the castle lights and Osbourne lights are spectacular, but so were the Lights of Winter. I'm really disappointed.

[joelkfla]

Were they there about 11 or 12 years ago? I remember vividly walking under a walkway of similar lights but could never remember where it was. I was thinking that the pathway led to an area that had a mock setup of houses that had appeared in TV shows years ago. At the time I was there between Christmas and New Years with our high school band and was also very sick at the time so just decided I had imagined it since I could never find it when we were there 5 years ago.
You are remembering the original version of the Osborne Family Spectacle of Lights. From 1995 until 2003, they were on Residential Street (the TV show houses you remember) on the MGM Studios Backlot. There was a tunnel-like canopy of lights that you walked through. The lights did not dance back then, but I think the canopy may have cycled thru different colors at some point in history.

In 2004, Residential Street was demolished to make room for the Lights Motors Action Xtreme Stunt Show, so the lights were moved to their current location on the Streets of America (formerly New York St.)

So, in 2005 Residential Street no longer existed, which is why you could find no trace of those TV show houses.

[Genie1953]

Thanks so much for the info on the history of the lights. That has been one of those things that has just nagged at me since that last trip when I couldn't even find the residential houses.

[lockedoutlogic]

Mmm ... I think that, while they may appear bungled to us the general public, I suspect Disney was very calculating in the way they handled them.

Doing away with free valet parking for DVC members? Just do it and say nothing ... the sheeple will never notice and by the time they do it will be too late.

Doing away with a beloved Christmas lighting effect in Epcot? Keep it quiet until after the sheeple book their Christmas trips. They wouldn't dare cancel.

They know what they're doing ... they know their audience too well.

I'm not saying that they didn't handle it "exactly as planned"....

I'm saying it still looks stupid. It's possible that it was handled exactly to plan...and they still look like cheap, penny-pinching, greedy suits....

and oh yes...that's what's a been a going on....

wishes magic dreams:mickey:....profits

[DVC2004]

I'm not saying that they didn't handle it "exactly as planned"....

I'm saying it still looks stupid. It's possible that it was handled exactly to plan...and they still look like cheap, penny-pinching, greedy suits....

and oh yes...that's what's a been a going on....

wishes magic dreams:mickey:....profits

You hit the nail on the head. There have been so many unfavorable changes in the past years and it all boils down to money. In this economic environment to still raise ticket prices and DVC prices under the assumption that people will still pay because it's Disney. Yet for the increase prices on everything they are taking away things like this and sacrificing the good service Disney used to be known for.

[Gator]

I would hazard to guess that they'll have something in it's place come next year. I'm glad I got to see it in it's last year up. But if you think about it, they already offer quite a bit extra for Christmas as it is: the Tree Lighting, extra live Christmas entertainment, the Candlelight Processional, Illuminations with extra pop at the end.

Don't get too upset. Going at Christmas still has much to offer at Epcot. At no extra charge.

[LauraleeH]

At no extra charge.
Never mind the ticket price increase that seems to happen every 6 months now ;)

I just don't buy that they were planning to put something up there next year. If they were, they would have done it THIS year. If something new comes, it's only because of the public opinion.

[lockedoutlogic]

Never mind the ticket price increase that seems to happen every 6 months now ;)

I just don't buy that they were planning to put something up there next year. If they were, they would have done it THIS year. If something new comes, it's only because of the public opinion.

There's absolutely no way this gets replaced....

If you think so - you're not paying attention to how things have been going at the sacred cash cow.

It's just a reduction..plain and simple....

and it has nothing to do with imported italian twinkle lights...

it has to do with what many have said: they wanted to...they did it....barely anyone will notice/ be upset by it...and still they'll pack their parks, restaurants, shops, and 40K hotel rooms the same as they always do....at higher prices.

WDW guests are lemmings....plain and simple....i'm just a vocal one that doesn't buy all the smoke and mirrors....but still runs to the water and pads the pockets

[GrumpyFan]

There's absolutely no way this gets replaced....

If you think so - you're not paying attention to how things have been going at the sacred cash cow.

It's just a reduction..plain and simple....

and it has nothing to do with imported italian twinkle lights...

it has to do with what many have said: they wanted to...they did it....barely anyone will notice/ be upset by it...and still they'll pack their parks, restaurants, shops, and 40K hotel rooms the same as they always do....at higher prices.


Maybe I've drank too much of the kool-aid, but I don't buy it. This is the quickest, and easiest of the light displays WDW had to set up, and probably maintain provided they had the right parts. Cinderella's castle requires a crane and takes about 6 or more weeks to set up, and then DHS takes at least 3 months of actual install time, then another 4 of prep. These things were probably easily setup in a week.

Maybe I'm a fool, but I kinda believe their story and I'm hoping they'll replace them with something in the future. I agree they've been reducing value over the last few years, I've seen it myself. However, Epcot is a popular park for Christmas, and because of its size, it can handle lots more people. It just makes sense that they would have some kind of light spectacle. In fact, I would almost be willing to bet that within the next 5 years they'll have a replacement.

[Stu29573]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more the "official story" makes more sense than the "evil consipracy." Not that I think either is completely accurate, mind you. It just seems to make more sense that the lights were in bad shape and when it came time to set them up they finally got to the "unusable" point. The timing of the announcement seems to bear this out. We won't really know until next year. The proof will be in the fact of there being something to replace them, or not...

[lockedoutlogic]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more the "official story" makes more sense than the "evil consipracy." Not that I think either is completely accurate, mind you. It just seems to make more sense that the lights were in bad shape and when it came time to set them up they finally got to the "unusable" point. The timing of the announcement seems to bear this out. We won't really know until next year. The proof will be in the fact of there being something to replace them, or not...

At least 5 to 1 against....:elf:

[lockedoutlogic]

Maybe I've drank too much of the kool-aid, but I don't buy it. This is the quickest, and easiest of the light displays WDW had to set up, and probably maintain provided they had the right parts. Cinderella's castle requires a crane and takes about 6 or more weeks to set up, and then DHS takes at least 3 months of actual install time, then another 4 of prep. These things were probably easily setup in a week.

My theories (just that):

First, the cost and expense of the castle overlay has been deemed acceptible because their cost analysis tells them that they sell alot more junk because of it....so it is warranted. The christmas party alone probably more than justifies that cost....

The osborne lights are a pure operational necessity. They can't have everyone mobbing EPCOT and MK during the peak season so they almost have to give a reason to hang out at the Studios....cause on it's own - there's nothing in that park that will draw the christmas crowd away from the big sisters

again....just theories

[DVC2004]

There are canned responses to guests as to why things are done.

It is never officially "money"- even though it is.

No one is "fired"- they leave to spend more time with thier family or to pursue other opportunities.

These aren't theories or conspiracy theories sadly. If you have worked for them beyond the theme park/hourly CM role you become sadly aware of the realities of why things are done.And most of the time, it's money- especially in recent years. Not trying to ruin anyone's opinion of Disney but this is how it is. They are a business and they are in to turn a profit. Are there great people there who care about the guest and the guest experience? Yes- but they aren't the ones who get the final say on these things.

[Zone Stop]

I believe that Epcot Engineering or Holiday Services would be smart enough to know that the lights have reached the end of their life BEFORE they actually wanted to put them up. I also believe that because of that, Disney would have made a HUGE DEAL about 2008 being the last year with them available, to get some last-minute bookings.

The sudden, quiet announcement reeks of one thing: Someone doesn't want to pay for them, plain and simple.

[GrumpyFan]

I believe that Epcot Engineering or Holiday Services would be smart enough to know that the lights have reached the end of their life BEFORE they actually wanted to put them up. I also believe that because of that, Disney would have made a HUGE DEAL about 2008 being the last year with them available, to get some last-minute bookings.

The sudden, quiet announcement reeks of one thing: Someone doesn't want to pay for them, plain and simple.

Just speculating, but perhaps they did know, and even told their superiors last year that they were in dis-repair. However, as is the case usually, these kinds of things get ignored by upper management until they come back again the next year, at which point it was too late to do anything about.

I have a similar issue at my job where we are running several older business computer systems without a service agreement. Every year when the request for budget submissions are requested, I propose renewing maintenance, yet it's always rejected because of the cost. Eventually, the system(s) will fail, and when they do we will have a hard time getting them fixed, but I guess management has decided to cross that bridge when we get there. In the meantime, I just keep all of my emails regarding the matter so when the time does come I can cover my assets.

In actuality, there was not an "official announcement" on the lights being retired. There was a blog posting by someone in the company who responded to a question about them. But, ultimately, I agree that it probably came about because they couldn't or wouldn't invest the money to fix or replace them.

[ToDisney]

... So, hopefully, next year will bring something new.

Disney monitors crowds, and spending pretty closely. If the retiring of these lights causes a significant change to Epcot this year, rest assured, they will replace them with something new.

While, I don't really know whether I agree or disagree with the idea that Disney officials waited to release to information about the lights until basiclly to late for most people to "cancel" their Christmas vacation plans.
I do believe that they (the WDW people) listen to what "we" have to say.
Last year the Osborne Lights didn't start until Thanksgiving, everyone had complete fits over that. Complaints went in forms of emails, letters, and I am pretty sure personal visits at the park. This year the Lights will be turned on mid-November again.
I know this doesn't solve everything. I for one, have never been to the CLP, I prefer to sit and watch to Lights of Winter.
I will really miss them!
:(

[Granny Jill A]

The osborne lights are a pure operational necessity. They can't have everyone mobbing EPCOT and MK during the peak season so they almost have to give a reason to hang out at the Studios....cause on it's own - there's nothing in that park that will draw the christmas crowd away from the big sisters

I'll agree 100% with your assessment of Hollywood Studios not being a big draw. I was down there last week to see the Osborne lights debut. After the show was over, my sister and I were looking for someplace to grab a light meal. I suggested Backlot Express. It was 6:30 p.m., the park was packed with visitors, but the Express was locked up tight. I was so disappointed. We debated about what to do since we didn't have an ADR for the table service places. We finally ended up leaving the park and eating at the resort food court. Too bad.

[Ian]

I'll agree 100% with your assessment of Hollywood Studios not being a big draw. I was down there last week to see the Osborne lights debut. After the show was over, my sister and I were looking for someplace to grab a light meal. I suggested Backlot Express. It was 6:30 p.m., the park was packed with visitors, but the Express was locked up tight. I was so disappointed. We debated about what to do since we didn't have an ADR for the table service places. We finally ended up leaving the park and eating at the resort food court. Too bad.Yeah ... this is a rather recent development.

They really work hard to herd people into the sit-down places. It's become very difficult to find a place to grab a quick meal or a snack.

Breakfast is the worst. Without an ADR you're completely out of luck when it comes to eating breakfast in the theme parks.

[lockedoutlogic]

Yeah ... this is a rather recent development.

They really work hard to herd people into the sit-down places. It's become very difficult to find a place to grab a quick meal or a snack.

Breakfast is the worst. Without an ADR you're completely out of luck when it comes to eating breakfast in the theme parks.

Well...it might just be a DVC thing....but the quickserve breakfast offerings have become a travesty...

Boardwalk...pastries only
Beach club....the one option generic sandwich thing...
OKW....the "breakfast croissant" or "breakfast platter thing"...

it's sad that these "deluxe" locations can't offer a decent breakfast without eating up an hour of time and 15-25 dollars a person...isn't it?

guess there's no profit in it, huh?

[Ian]

Saratoga has the same problem. Breakfast platter or breakfast sandwich and that's about it.

And really both are pretty gross. The cheese is questionable at best and the eggs are definitely powdered. It actually reminds me of what I'd think prison food would taste like. :sick:

[BMan62]

Well...it might just be a DVC thing....but the quickserve breakfast offerings have become a travesty...

Boardwalk...pastries only
Beach club....the one option generic sandwich thing...
OKW....the "breakfast croissant" or "breakfast platter thing"...

it's sad that these "deluxe" locations can't offer a decent breakfast without eating up an hour of time and 15-25 dollars a person...isn't it?

guess there's no profit in it, huh?


Saratoga has the same problem. Breakfast platter or breakfast sandwich and that's about it.

And really both are pretty gross. The cheese is questionable at best and the eggs are definitely powdered. It actually reminds me of what I'd think prison food would taste like. :sick:

They don't make any money by making it easy or worthwhile to stay in your resort all day (or even for too long in the mornings.) They want you out and into the parks & DTD to spend all those Disney Dollars burning holes in your pocket!!!

[Ian]

They don't make any money by making it easy or worthwhile to stay in your resort all day (or even for too long in the mornings.) They want you out and into the parks & DTD to spend all those Disney Dollars burning holes in your pocket!!!Well and actually I'd be perfectly okay with that except ...

You have to pay for an overpriced character breakfast if you want to eat breakfast in the parks! Which, by itself, isn't so terrible. But I don't want a big buffet breakfast every morning and sometimes I don't want to spend the 90 minutes it takes eating at a TS place.

If I could just grab a decent counter service breakfast in the parks I'd be cool with that, but they've largely done away with the ability to do that.

That's what I find troubling.

[Hammer]

Well and actually I'd be perfectly okay with that except ...

You have to pay for an overpriced character breakfast if you want to eat breakfast in the parks! Which, by itself, isn't so terrible. But I don't want a big buffet breakfast every morning and sometimes I don't want to spend the 90 minutes it takes eating at a TS place.

If I could just grab a decent counter service breakfast in the parks I'd be cool with that, but they've largely done away with the ability to do that.

That's what I find troubling.

While I'll agree that finding a decent counter service breakfast is not easy, there are a few places where you can get a decent quick meal.

Deluxe resort-Contemporary, Polynesian, AKL and WL- all of these places offer more than just a breakfast sandwich.

DHS- Starring Rolls- Salmon on a Bagel (better than nothing and I love a bagel with lox)

Epcot- Sunshine Seasons- has a few choices

MK- Love getting a pastry at the bakery for breakfast, but agree that ig you want more than that, you are out of luck here
AK- Pizzafari has a very nice breakfast menu. Eggs, biscuits with Sausage gravy :tasty: , breakfast pizza, etc.

[Granny Jill A]

I prefer to sit and watch to Lights of Winter. I will really miss them! :(

:ditto::ditto::ditto:

[Hammer]

Regarding the Lights of Winter removal, they were never a priority for me to go see (much like the DVC people who were not really affected by removing valet parking as they did not really use it). What bothers me more is it continues a bad precedent in taking something away and either not replacing it or replacing with a cheaper, lower quality product.

[Maleficent's Dad]

What bothers me more is it continues a bad precedent in taking something away and either not replacing it or replacing with a cheaper, lower quality product.
Well stated, Christine. I guess this is what it all comes down to. How many more "cuts" will the consumers allow before Disney starts to see the effect?

[lockedoutlogic]

Well stated, Christine. I guess this is what it all comes down to. How many more "cuts" will the consumers allow before Disney starts to see the effect?

I think we've all come to the realization on this one:

The customers will allow hundreds...if not more cuts before they even give it a second thought....

The repeat customer base of WDW is really stupid about this....and that's about the only way to "diplomatically
say it

[squijee]

The Lights of Winter is one of the reasons we go at Christmas. I will voice my opinion of their demise loud and clear. :thedolls::mad: It seems to me that they cut more and more then we may as well just go to Six Flags and be done with it.

[Strmchsr]

The repeat customer base of WDW is really stupid about this....and that's about the only way to "diplomatically say it


You know, you aren't the only smart person on the planet and people who enjoy WDW are not stupid. Just because some folks don't want to complain about everything Disney does is not reason to question their intelligence. While I don't like, or agree with, many of the choices Disney World has made lately I don't slam those who still enjoy the experience, so chill out.

[DizNee143]

it stinks they are getting rid of it..
just another thing most of us look forward to that will be missing..
hopefully they will bring it back one day!:mickey:

[Seasonscraps]

This has been a pattern for the past couple of years. They lucked out with a failing economy so they have an excuse to eliminate all these little things that enhance a vacation but doesn't necessarily make or break it. And while you can't place a dollar value on a lot of them, they are all part of the MAGIC Disney sells which is why they are able to get away with the rates/prices they charge for certain things. If they keep eliminating these things at some point, the consumer is going to say enough. They are going to find another place to vacation that is just as enjoyable (in a different way) that has more value. Maybe that's when Disney will remember what drew people there in the first place. :mickey:

[lockedoutlogic]

You know, you aren't the only smart person on the planet and people who enjoy WDW are not stupid. Just because some folks don't want to complain about everything Disney does is not reason to question their intelligence. While I don't like, or agree with, many of the choices Disney World has made lately I don't slam those who still enjoy the experience, so chill out.

You're right...I phrased that wrong...

the WDW repeat customer base is naive ABOUT THIS TYPE OF CUT/ REDUCTION...

it was poorly worded...but it's the truth. There is no pressure on the management in orlando (or their masters in Anaheim) to stop doing these types of little cuts because they have been tolerated for years...

Sure they add things...but the gaps between major additions has steadily become longer and longer...and the frequency of these types of "reductions" has grown more steadily...

"The blessing of size" as Walt Disney termed it in Florida.....has become something different: they just use the sheer size of the complex to hide reductions...which they have now done twice in a 9 year period for an extended stretch...

you know?

as far as slamming those who "just want to experience it"...you are giving me credit for too much venom.

I have a great time in WDW...most people i know do...but we are part of the problem: we go 4 times a year and don't even really pay attention to what is or isn't there...as do most in the over-populated, over-traveled., over-indulged state i live in (JOISEY!!!!)...

but i have no illusions: someday these types of things are going to change the overall fundamentals of how he parks feel...and as most examples in history tell us...once something is lost, it will never be the same - no matter how you try to fix it.

So that's where i'm coming from...

[Strmchsr]

You're right...I phrased that wrong...

the WDW repeat customer base is naive ABOUT THIS TYPE OF CUT/ REDUCTION...it was poorly worded...but it's the truth.

as far as slamming those who "just want to experience it"...you are giving me credit for too much venom.

Much more properly phrased and thanks for the clarification. As my momma used to say, "It ain't what you said, but the way you said it." So, I appreciate (and mostly agree with) the spirit of what you're saying. As an Intercot moderator I also have to make sure that no one feels like they are being ridiculed because of their love for Disney seeing as how that's why we're all here. Not opposed to constructive criticism of Disney just want to make sure we keep the Intercot environment friendly for all.

[Figment78]

My theories (just that):

First, the cost and expense of the castle overlay has been deemed acceptible because their cost analysis tells them that they sell alot more junk because of it....so it is warranted. The christmas party alone probably more than justifies that cost....

The osborne lights are a pure operational necessity. They can't have everyone mobbing EPCOT and MK during the peak season so they almost have to give a reason to hang out at the Studios....cause on it's own - there's nothing in that park that will draw the christmas crowd away from the big sisters

again....just theories

Why are you even on a disney fan board anyhow? Your posts just seem to be about how much you hate things there now. I'm sorry that you can't seem to accept that changes have to be made to save money sometimes or for the sake of changing 'the show.' If you no longer like WDW, then please, by all means just leave us fans alone. Epcot and WDW is beautiful without any holiday decorations at all. While I may or may not agree with you about a needed change in curernt leadership philosophy / style / etc, I can't help but feel that you are just so bitter about WDW that it's extremely puzzling to me why you are on here at all. To say that there is nothing at the Studios is just foolish, narrow-minded and inflamatory. This is my family's favorite park easily. We love to spend time there. It has some fantastic attractions and plenty to draw people to it.

[Wadeace]

I want to apologize for the lateness of this post; I got slammed with the past couple of months of school, and unplugged over break.
I also want to apologize in advanced for the length of this post and some of the technical jargon inside it.

I always find it interesting how people comment on things when they don’t grasp the scale and background of what they are commenting on. I’m not trying to offend anyone, I'm just saying before you cry about a problem think about what is going on in the background and not just conspiracy.

As a student who is studying entertainment technology, I can say that technology is ever changing as such the companies that provide the technology are constantly discontinuing the parts to service the discontinued products.

We have seen it before, a company goes out of business that supplied Disney with parts or a technology integral for an effect or experience, they buy all the parts they can to hobble a show along and then they run out of that part, what are they to do.

Their choices are to either spend millions of dollars to revamp a single aspect of a show experience ant to get it to properly interact with the rest of the older, and quite possibly outdated show control system, or to spend the same amount of money to do a total refurbish of a total show environment and make the show more appealing to a larger younger more sophisticated audience.

People got very upset to see Mr. toads wild ride turned into poohs adventure.
But the ride technology was aging and was turned into a more interesting experience with the bouncing cars.

Also we have seen when a ride elements is very technically advanced and the elements involved require a lot of support, and when a companies who provides that support goes under who is Disney to turn to for service and supply. As was the case with the yeti.

Disney has to update itself if it wants to stay relevant. At other parks ride systems are constantly being updated, while they may not be to the Disney themeing standards, they are technically advanced experiences. These other companies are able to change out rides without anyone complaining, the simply move on because the old one got to a point where it became old. While we might not consider them in competition with Disney, they are because rather than traveling to Florida, they can stay in there home state and have a very exciting time, so Disney has to constantly change and update things to keep the attention of an audience base that is growing more sophisticated every year.

Disney fans are a very interesting bunch, we expect to see Disney provide us with newer more exciting experiences, yet don’t want to sacrifice an older ride experience the will be replaced with the newer one, because we don’t give up that “history”. Disney has tried to balance that history, and updated technology line, and even than people complained that it was messing with the integrity of the ride. The ride I'm talking about is the pirates of the Caribbean.

I’m not saying that Disney hasn’t cut back, I thing what gets cut back changes with each administration. Under Iger, I have seen production standards decrease. During FAWF I could point out power cables and other technical aspects that would have been hidden in the past, just lying there in plain sight. Special event tech and tech for layovers have become sloppy. We have also seen decrees in maintenance and safety procedures in the transportation system, which resulted in a catastrophic accident, and those issues are being addressed.
However under Iger we have also seen the development and expansion of new and amazing technologies that allow for more dynamic audience participation experiences.

Back to the lights of winter

Disney has been on a kick of updating all of their Christmas lights to leds. This actually uses less energy and takes less time to set up.

Quick example.
The lights for the tree in the middle of the lobby of the grand Floridian, when it was all incandescent, they had to erect a short wall that cut the lobby in half the run the large feeder cable to the tree. Now that the tree is 100% leds, it takes a comparatively smaller extension cord that can be easily covers so that guests can wall over it, this also means they can remove the wall and not use the man hours to actually install the whole system. Because lets face it is easier to run a small three phase twist lock, than 5 conductors of cam lock three phase when one conductor for the cam lock weights twice as much as one twist lock.

Also Disney dose not produce all of its own power, RCID has one diesel power station that provides about half the required power for the magic kingdom alone.

You also have to understand that when a lot the older shows were put in place Disney had to go out on a limb and guess as to what technology would become the standard, because a standard didn’t exist at the time. It would be like trying to build a system with high definition DVD playback and having to decide if you choose blur-ray or hddvd as the media, when you didn’t know which would become the slandered and as such would be around longer.

You also have to understand that theme park productions is not responsible for upkeep of holiday overlays. The upkeep and design is the responsibility of Christmas services. So while a theme park productions employee might have caught the problem with the system, and tried to relay a message to a relevant person at Christmas services, because the Disney corporation is the size of a small country, the beurocracy between the departments is like trying to coordinate between different levels of government, as such they have lost the agility they once had.

From what I have been able to gather the show was debuted late 50s early 60s, and was a product from a companies in Italy.
The lamps and half of the control system was American, the Italian components were probably the central controller that sent the on off signal to the lights was Italian and the white arch structures were designed and fabricated in Italy. The Italians might have even wired the structures to American standards, however, our power system and there power system are not compatible, which is why I say that the dimmers for the lamps and the lamps themselves were American, and probably made special to interact with the Italian control system. Depending on who manufactured the dimmers id venture to guess that that company got bought out, and the people who run it now wouldn’t know where to look for the spec sheets for them let alone finding the proper components, and than would become more costly because you are asking for a total custom job, not just modifying something that is coming off the production line.

At the moment I cant think of any lighting control system manufacture that is based out of Italy, so as such whom will they turn to if something goes wrong with the control system. So you are looking at having to do a total replacement of that. Which also means having to replace the dimmers, and update the wiring and the lamps and every other aspect because they would want to choose a control system that is standard thought the park.

You have to understand the when Disney dose a revamp of a show they are also revamping the technology behind it, so the castle as stayed pretty up to date technology wise, also the Osborne show didn’t hit the parks until after standards for lighting control had taken affect on the market.

So what do I think happened?
Some aspect of the control system failed and a replacement is nowhere to be had. When they went to start testing the system they discovered the failure, and after looking into it realized that it was to late to do a rework of the system. So they decided to shelf it for this year, and they might have started a rework of the system that we will see installed next year for the holidays. This also will make way for a newer iteration of the show that will feature some new technology.

When Disney decides to cut a show or experience, they will typically announce that it will be leaving to get one last milk out of the we have to see it before it leaves crowed. The way this was handled appears to me that something broke that couldn’t be fixed in time. For Disney to quietly announce it wont be shown so late in the game, than to very quietly say that it was a technical failure makes me think that it was just that. Disney is a company that doesn’t like to announce that they cant do anything, and typically when something goes wrong, they will give you a bland bear with us sort of announcement.
I also agree with statements that putting up and running this show probably did cost the company a lot less than the other holiday experiences at the park. And so for people to say that it was a cut back because of money is a little ridicules.

[Patricia]

Thanks for the insight.

Even though my head hurts. :blush:

[DisneyCrazy]

From what I have been able to gather the show was debuted late 50s early 60s, and was a product from a companies in Italy.


This can't be accurate. Epcot Center did not open until 1982 and the Lights of Winter didn't make an appearance until the late '80's or early 90's.

[Wadeace]

This can't be accurate. Epcot Center did not open until 1982 and the Lights of Winter didn't make an appearance until the late '80's or early 90's.

sorry, i should have double checks that, i was on a rant, and never double checked my dates. however, if it was debuted any time before the the 90s than a lot of what i said would still apply since DMX the standard control system wasn't a standard until 86.

[dtootsie42]

I mean't to do some posting in December when we got back from our trip but life got in the way. I just wanted to make a comment about Epcot...it was really sad....a lot of the magic was missing due to the fact that the lights were gone and it just seemed blah. We usually go to Disney in December but we are now rethinking that especially if the decorations are gong to be so sparse.

I do hope Disney comes up with something special because we never heard the gospel choir sing....twice they were suppose to be performing while we were there we never saw or heard them. Besides a gospel choir somehow does not make up for the beauty of the lights.