Improvements vs Cutbacks: Commentary & Discussion of Current Disney Management

[lockedoutlogic]

It just aggrivates me to no end that they sit on their thumbs instead of using "downtimes" to do real reinvestment and improvement in the parks and resorts....

I mean....it's not like they place isn't still raking in billions.....and it's not like construction and material costs are at their lowest points....and it's not like the impact on the operations is minimal with smaller crowds....

what do i know?:confused:

[Figment!]

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[Ian]

It just aggrivates me to no end that they sit on their thumbs instead of using "downtimes" to do real reinvestment and improvement in the parks and resorts....

I mean....it's not like they place isn't still raking in billions.....and it's not like construction and material costs are at their lowest points....and it's not like the impact on the operations is minimal with smaller crowds....

what do i know?:confused:Corporate America has become insanely risk averse when it comes to spending money. If you can't trace a clear relationship between the expense the ROI forget it ... the money won't be spent.

You can debate endlessly whether it's right, wrong, indifferent ... whether it's because the execs want to line their pockets at the expense of everything else ... whether it's the way Wall Street looks at company balance sheets, or whatever.

But the bottom line is that Disney follows the same model that all of Corporate America follows without stoping to think that they're not in the same business as a bank or a brokerage house or even a retail chain.

They sell experiences and if they continually cut back and cheapen the experience, eventually people will stop buying their product.

[cgriff]

Lockedout, c'mon, stop agitating. :stop:

There is quite a bit of reinvestment and/or improvements going on in the parks. Read the Tidbits sticky at the top of this board for starters, plus you've got your Space Mountain refurb, new construction in Tomorrowland (new stage show?), new construction at DTD (hot air balloon ride?), new restaurants (Kouzinne), new resorts (4 Seasons/Western Way/Pop expansion)... These are just the things off the top of my head... Seems to me that there is quite a bit of reinvestment/improvement projects going on, considering the current economic clime.

[Ian]

Lockedout, c'mon, stop agitating. :stop:

There is quite a bit of reinvestment and/or improvements going on in the parks. Read the Tidbits sticky at the top of this board for starters, plus you've got your Space Mountain refurb, new construction in Tomorrowland (new stage show?), new construction at DTD (hot air balloon ride?), new restaurants (Kouzinne), new resorts (4 Seasons/Western Way/Pop expansion)... These are just the things off the top of my head... Seems to me that there is quite a bit of reinvestment/improvement projects going on, considering the current economic clime.Mmmmmmmm ... gonna have to beg to differ here ...

Right out of the gate, you cannot count the new restaurants or the new resorts in the mix because none of those are Disney projects. They're all 3rd party, revenue generating projects for Disney, not capital expenditures for them. And the Pop expansion is just a rumor ... nothing going on there yet.

As far as the other three you mention ... really?? You're giving them credit for a hot air balloon ride?? My local zoo has had one of those for decades.

The Space Mountain refurb had to be done because the ride was falling apart. The new stage show in Tomorrowland is about the only thing I'd say counts as a "new attraction" and, quite honestly, it sounds about as weak as they come.

I agree that people need to temper their negativity at times, but honestly I don't think this is one of those times. All those examples you gave are more supportive of the opposite side of the argument, IMO.

It's an example of just how bad things have gotten that the company who once brought you attractions like Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion has fallen so far that they now try to sell us a hot air balloon ride as an attraction.

[lockedoutlogic]

As far as the other three you mention ... really?? You're giving them credit for a hot air balloon ride?? My local zoo has had one of those for decades.


The Channel 6 zoo balloon? I love that.....nothing like a birds eye view of the poorly constucted Schuyk and rows house for miles...:thumbsup:

[GothMickey]

Lockedout, c'mon, stop agitating. :stop:

There is quite a bit of reinvestment and/or improvements going on in the parks. Read the Tidbits sticky at the top of this board for starters, plus you've got your Space Mountain refurb, new construction in Tomorrowland (new stage show?), new construction at DTD (hot air balloon ride?), new restaurants (Kouzinne), new resorts (4 Seasons/Western Way/Pop expansion)... These are just the things off the top of my head... Seems to me that there is quite a bit of reinvestment/improvement projects going on, considering the current economic clime.

This is exactly the reason why DIsney does NOTHING innovative anymore. If a hot air balloon carnival/zoo ride thrills people, then this is the same cheap stuff we will continue to get from this management team in Orlando.

Do you know what is planned for Space Mountain now as compared to what we WOULD have gotten? A world of difference. This Space Mountain refurb has been slashed to half of what was planned by WDI.

We need to hit Disney where it hurts: THEIR POCKETS!!! We, as regulars, need to let them know we refuse to step foot into their fast approaching stale parks. We need to write, call, email management, especially Iger to let him know Crofton, Holmes, and Rasulo have ruined the parks, not helped. We need to let management know we are not going to spend out money to support their leack of imagination decisions. We need to let them know we will go elsewhere. Cancel your vacations. Don't renew your annual passes, Go to Universal, Sea World, Busch Gardens. Don't eat on Disney property. Stop buying their cheap merchandise. They will eventually get the message!!!!

[cgriff]

Saying that you don't like the improvements that Disney is making to their parks is one thing (although, since you haven't yet ridden the new ride, seen the new stage show, eaten at the new restaurant, don't be angry with us if we dismiss your thoughts about it!). But you cannot claim that Disney is not doing any reinvestment in park improvements, because you'd just be demonstrably wrong on that count.

The circular argument that that Space Mountain is need of refurbishment, but then admonishing Disney management for refurbishing it, makes no sense.

Oh, and DCA should count as a huge reinvestment.

[lockedoutlogic]

Saying that you don't like the improvements that Disney is making to their parks is one thing (although, since you haven't yet ridden the new ride, seen the new stage show, eaten at the new restaurant, don't be angry with us if we dismiss your thoughts about it!). But you cannot claim that Disney is not doing any reinvestment in park improvements, because you'd just be demonstrably wrong on that count.

The circular argument that that Space Mountain is need of refurbishment, but then admonishing Disney management for refurbishing it, makes no sense.

Oh, and DCA should count as a huge reinvestment.

no offense....but Ian's post from above covered it....

Third party development does not represent a committment to reinvestment on the part of Disney....

it's actually a cheap way of getting money with few strings attached....


Disney has committed to nothing of significance for WDW for the forseeable future.....nothing

Third party hotels, restaurants, and merchandise are not what we're talking about.....

Animal Kingdom is still far short of what it needs to be a 75 dollar ticket....and nothing is in the works....and everest is now 3 years old....it needs more

MGM/Studios is the same....it needs expansion to become a true disney park experience.....and it has never gotten it....now only probably 2/3 of the way to completion....

EPCOT is still in the middle of a 15 year "rehab" were i'm not quite sure who's minding the store....this thing is going on in perpetuity....

Disney has shown no committment of late to actually adding or strengthening the parks....and this is after 5 years where they packed the place to the gills and reaped huge profits....

IT might be acceptible for many....it is not to me....

This is another form of bad customer service....when you drill repeat business into everything that a customer is presented with...but make no effort to provide a reason for all the repeat business....

I still love it in WDW.....that's not gonna change....but that doesn't mean i will not point out where the errors lie...

[GothMickey]

no offense....but Ian's post from above covered it....

Third party development does not represent a committment to reinvestment on the part of Disney....

it's actually a cheap way of getting money with few strings attached....


Disney has committed to nothing of significance for WDW for the forseeable future.....nothing

Third party hotels, restaurants, and merchandise are not what we're talking about.....

Animal Kingdom is still far short of what it needs to be a 75 dollar ticket....and nothing is in the works....and everest is now 3 years old....it needs more

MGM/Studios is the same....it needs expansion to become a true disney park experience.....and it has never gotten it....now only probably 2/3 of the way to completion....

EPCOT is still in the middle of a 15 year "rehab" were i'm not quite sure who's minding the store....this thing is going on in perpetuity....

Disney has shown no committment of late to actually adding or strengthening the parks....and this is after 5 years where they packed the place to the gills and reaped huge profits....

IT might be acceptible for many....it is not to me....

This is another form of bad customer service....when you drill repeat business into everything that a customer is presented with...but make no effort to provide a reason for all the repeat business....

I still love it in WDW.....that's not gonna change....but that doesn't mean i will not point out where the errors lie...

Thank you and great post. The Little Mermaid ride in MK no longer in the mix, and may never come back. Star Tours 2 is all but ready to go. However, Teasm Orlando has put the kabosh on it. Want to know why? THEY WANT A CHEAPER VERSION!!!! They have put a delay on the Monsters Inc Roller Coaster, blaming lack of sponsorship. The Yeti in Everest no longer is put in A mode cause it is broken. Has been in B mode for the better part of a year, as I understand it. There were talks of replacing the AA altogether with a LCD screen, CGI yeti. The effects on Everest don't even work.

The managemt team in Orlando has a if it is broke, don't fix it mentality. They simply shut it off. They think people won't notice. People do.

[GothMickey]

Saying that you don't like the improvements that Disney is making to their parks is one thing (although, since you haven't yet ridden the new ride, seen the new stage show, eaten at the new restaurant, don't be angry with us if we dismiss your thoughts about it!). But you cannot claim that Disney is not doing any reinvestment in park improvements, because you'd just be demonstrably wrong on that count.

The circular argument that that Space Mountain is need of refurbishment, but then admonishing Disney management for refurbishing it, makes no sense.

Oh, and DCA should count as a huge reinvestment.

Space Mountain is in need of a refurbishment, and I am glad they are doing something. But, we could have gotten so much more. Again, cheapening the refurb is why. They are working on the roof, enclosing the queue. We are NOT getting on board audio like originally planned. We are not getting new track like originally planned. We are getting touch ups on the track. We are getting touch ups on the support structure. You know how old that support structure is, right? Common sense should tell them remove it and put in a stronger support. However, that would have cost MORE money. Phil Holmes will NEVER sepnd MORE money.

Please don't use a dance party in the middle of Tomorrowland as a great addition either. It isn't. It is going to be a tacky addition in a really bad location.

Do you think knocking down the Galaxy Palace Theater for more management parking was a great investment? More prime real estate gone for nothing. Let's see if they really decide to ever build that major E ticket attraction there.

The reason I am bring up the management's lack of creativity and imagination is not because I hate Disney. I love Disney. However, we, the fans, the regulars, the AP holders, DVC members, need to speak up and let them know we are not going to tolerate pathetic excuses for refurbishments, pathetic excuses for new entertainment, cheap metchandise, cheap additions, taking away entertainment yet increasing prices. We have to let them know that enough is enough and we aren't going to take it anymore. Disney no longer has the guts to be leaders in the industry. They no longer have the guts to be on the cutting edge.

I pray that Universal's attendace increases 10 fold once Harry Potter opens. I pray Disney's attendance DROPS. Maybe that would finally wake them up. But, I doubt it, as long as people are satisfied with half-hearted refurbs, updated painting of buildings, closing down of guest favorites, and the continued addition of carnival rides.

[Imagineer1981]

I can tell from the posts that everyone is heated, and thats good, we are passionate people about Disney or we wouldn't be on this site, and we want only for Disney to succeed.

That being said, by boycotting Disney, by not going, by not buying the merchandise, all you are doing is hurting Disney in the long run. They need repeat guests to stay afloat. By trying to financially hurt them, you will be basically leading to more cutbacks, more cheap effects, more broken rides, and a worse guest experience. There is no reason to invest big chunks of money in something that is not showing the returns in the Disney execs minds which is totally the opposite of what the founder would have thought.

I understand the flip side, that by boycotting maybe Disney will get the idea that we are furious about the cheap fixes, bad attraction replacements, and general lack of enthusiasm on the executive end of the company, but I don't think its going to sink in. I don't think its going to make as big of an impact, they'll just chaulk it up to the economy as a catch-all

[jrpersinger]

Ian, LockedoutLogic and GothMickey :thumbsup::thumbsup: from me!

I am so glad to read that I am not the only one who is becoming increasingly unhappy with the way things are heading.

I want Fantasmic back full time, bring back 4 For a Dollar, bring the charcters back at LTT (throw Mickey in with them) and DON'T MESS WITH WISHES!

[GothMickey]

I can tell from the posts that everyone is heated, and thats good, we are passionate people about Disney or we wouldn't be on this site, and we want only for Disney to succeed.

That being said, by boycotting Disney, by not going, by not buying the merchandise, all you are doing is hurting Disney in the long run. They need repeat guests to stay afloat. By trying to financially hurt them, you will be basically leading to more cutbacks, more cheap effects, more broken rides, and a worse guest experience. There is no reason to invest big chunks of money in something that is not showing the returns in the Disney execs minds which is totally the opposite of what the founder would have thought.

I understand the flip side, that by boycotting maybe Disney will get the idea that we are furious about the cheap fixes, bad attraction replacements, and general lack of enthusiasm on the executive end of the company, but I don't think its going to sink in. I don't think its going to make as big of an impact, they'll just chaulk it up to the economy as a catch-all

Continuing to go to Disney, continuing to give they your hard earned money, is a vote in FAVOR of getting less for my money. This is what is wrong with WDW management today. We need to get out of this: IF WE DON'T GO TO DISNEY IT WILL HURT THEM attitude. Hitting Disney in the pockets will get their attention. COntinuing to give them your money for cheap updates and pathetic additions will continue to lead to the dumbing down and Walmarting of WDW.

Orlando's management thinks that people will continue to go because "we are Disney and gosh darn it, people love us." This is why they have not added anything of substance. We got EE three years ago. Half of the ride effects do not work. And the Yeti, as I mentioned before, has been broke for more than a year and WILL NOT be fixed any time soon. We will get a CGI yeti on a LCD screen before they fix their multi-million dollar broken toy.

And again, Star Tours 2.0 should be the main example of how terrible Orlando management is. They are holding up Disneyland and WDW getting a new Star Tours. They are being cheap, as usual.

They have to get the idea. They have to be shown that we are not going to tolerate it anymore. How can we get that point across? We have to stop going. We have voice our concerns loud and clear. They may hear our voices and read our letters but they will notice more when their bottom falls and money is lost.

BY the way, tell me something. Would you be willing to pay $100 a day (prices will be sooner than you think) only to see a CGI image of Stitch daning on a LCD screen? How about spending $100 bucks a day for rides that are 25 years old with no refurbishment in site? Or for rides that don't have all or any effects working? Team Disney Orlando is betting you would. This is why we are getting nothing.

[GothMickey]

Ian, LockedoutLogic and GothMickey :thumbsup::thumbsup: from me!

I am so glad to read that I am not the only one who is becoming increasingly unhappy with the way things are heading.

I want Fantasmic back full time, bring back 4 For a Dollar, bring the charcters back at LTT (throw Mickey in with them) and DON'T MESS WITH WISHES!

Want to see 4 For A Dollar? Go to SeaWorld. They are now performing there.

Again, let Disney know your displeasure. Let them know their surveys are a LIE. It is time we stand up to this pathetic leadership in WDW.

[BMan62]

They have to get the idea. They have to be shown that we are not going to tolerate it anymore. How can we get that point across? We have to stop going. We have voice our concerns loud and clear. They may hear our voices and read our letters but they will notice more when their bottom falls and money is lost.

Unfortunately, this is not a valid option. By not going you are taking more money out of their coffers and giving them more reason to cut back.

Conversely, by continuing as if nothing is wrong, they still get their pockets full and think they can keep cutting and stuffing more and more into their own pockets.

A real "Catch-22" here.

A real possibility is to go on every fan site you can, create petitions for/against policies and current procedures and get them to the Disney BoD. Not that this would do any good, mind you, but it would be a concerted effort to open their eyes to the displeasure numerous 'regular' visitors are feeling right now.

[cgriff]

Imagineer1981, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) here are being duplicitous.

On one forum they will argue that 3rd-party restaurants serve better food and offer better service than do most of the Disney O&O outlets; but on another forum, when there is an announcement about a Disney O&O restaurant giving way to a third-party restaurant, they refuse to call this an "improvement".

On one forum they lament the conditions of rides such as Space Mountain; but on another forum they refuse to recognize the refurbishment that is in progress on that attraction as an "improvement", nor that the money spent on said improvement is a "reinvestment".

On one forum they opine for the halcyon days of when the Walt Disney World Skyway to Tomorrowland offered terrific views of the MK; but on another forum they pooh-pooh the idea of a brand new attraction that easily will trump the views from the old Skyway. "Not an improvement", they argue... or "Doesn't cost them enough money", they claim... or "I can see that same view at my local zoo"... (???)

Basically, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) are so invested in the concept of Disney doing wrong, that even when they run counter to their own previous arguments, they refuse to admit the possibility of Disney doing something even semi-decent.

My response to all of their hot air is that I have just purchased a second membership in D23 on my lunchbreak.

:mickey:

[JRocker]

As far as the off topic conversation goes...
Disney does need to step it up and get creative (again), and they need to stay focused on what made them what they are (which maintenance played a huge role).

Back to the topic:

Considering the current economic climate, I think this is a win-win. The airport gets to hang on to a good contract, and Disney has a reason to keep ME going.

If you think that ME isn't at the top of the "possible budget cuts" list, then you are fooling yourselves, and I believe the airport sees it that way as well.

I mean, come on, several of you have already listed several other customer service related areas that have taken hits, ME wouldn't be much more of a stretch. After all, people will still come to WDW...

[GothMickey]

Unfortunately, this is not a valid option. By not going you are taking more money out of their coffers and giving them more reason to cut back.

Conversely, by continuing as if nothing is wrong, they still get their pockets full and think they can keep cutting and stuffing more and more into their own pockets.

A real "Catch-22" here.

A real possibility is to go on every fan site you can, create petitions for/against policies and current procedures and get them to the Disney BoD. Not that this would do any good, mind you, but it would be a concerted effort to open their eyes to the displeasure numerous 'regular' visitors are feeling right now.

The only thing that will hurt Disney and wake them up is losing money. They cannot keep blaming the economy for their lack of leadership. I am all for writing letters, emails, and making phone calls. But, they only go so far. I am still willing to do a writing and calling campaign. Heck, I will call them every day if I have to. I don't care. However, letting them know you will not visit, and letting them know they are going to lose business because of there half-hearted, cheap, and lazy decisions will get their attention even faster.

[valjane]

That being said, by boycotting Disney, by not going, by not buying the merchandise, all you are doing is hurting Disney in the long run. They need repeat guests to stay afloat. By trying to financially hurt them, you will be basically leading to more cutbacks, more cheap effects, more broken rides, and a worse guest experience.

But they are giving me no incentive to return right now. I've been going to WDW at least once a year since 1975 (when I was 9 months old). As far as changes go, I've seen it all! I really have!

And as much as I have always loved Disney and as much as I still want to, I no longer really feel the "magic" when I go there. I just sort of feel "greed."

[GothMickey]

Imagineer1981, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) here are being duplicitous.


On one forum they will argue that 3rd-party restaurants serve better food and offer better service than do most of the Disney O&O outlets; but on another forum, when there is an announcement about a Disney O&O restaurant giving way to a third-party restaurant, they refuse to call this an "improvement". cgriff: I have no issues with third parties taking over Disney restaurants. I have never blasted these decisions. However, you said this is Disney investing money in the resort. It's not. It is management's way of making the quick buck without seeing long term gain. Pleasure Island is a great example of how this tactic is failing. They close all their clubs with the ideas that they no longer have to shell money out to keep up the guest experience. They thought it would be easy to get 3rd parties into Pleasure Island. Guess what? Epic failure to this point. Instead of filling up the empty buildings with restaurants, we get: EMPTY BUILDINGS.


On one forum they lament the conditions of rides such as Space Mountain; but on another forum they refuse to recognize the refurbishment that is in progress on that attraction as an "improvement", nor that the money spent on said improvement is a "reinvestment".

Space Mountain needed a refurbishment BADLY. It is getting one. However, it is getting HALF of what it was originally going to get. Why? Well, we all know Phil Holmes HATES to close attractions for long periods of time. The refurbishment was due to last into 2010. Now, it is due to reopen in November. April to November. That is how long the refurb is going to last. HALF of what it was going to. Again, no new track. No on board audio. No new support structure. Why?? MONEY!!! COST!! You can say it is an improvement all you want. I hope it is. But, face it, it will be the same old ride with nothing new in it. Of course they are "reinvesting" money into the ride. But, they CUT the amount of money to be "reinvested." Now, we get a half-hearted refurb. I hope this refurb is a great improvement. And I am sure it will be. But, it could have been so much more. Let me put it to you this way: WDW's Space Mountain would have been the best Space Mountain in all the Disney parks. Now, it will continue to rank 3rd or 4th best.


On one forum they opine for the halcyon days of when the Walt Disney World Skyway to Tomorrowland offered terrific views of the MK; but on another forum they pooh-pooh the idea of a brand new attraction that easily will trump the views from the old Skyway. "Not an improvement", they argue... or "Doesn't cost them enough money", they claim... or "I can see that same view at my local zoo"... (A view of the WDW resort from your local zoo?)

Is this your reasoning for the balloon ride in DTD? Disney used to be at the forefront of innovention. They used to be the standard bearer. Now, they are copycats. They have been surpassed, and are not even close to catching up. Pleasure Island is rotting and the only thing management can come up with is a balloon ride? Which is a copy of the ride in Disneyland Paris. And you misconstrue when people say they see the same view at their local zoon. They say they have the same RIDE at their local zoo. Again, Disney fails to take the lead on ride technology. Instead they rehash stuff already out there. I'll give the balloon ride a shot. The view will probably be amazing. But, nothing innoventive about it.


Basically, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) are so invested in the concept of Disney doing wrong, that even when they run counter to their own previous arguments, they refuse to admit the possibility of Disney doing something even semi-decent.

No one here is a Disney hater. I venture to say, those of us who lay out what is wrong with Disney, actually CARE about Disney. A fan can enjoy the place and critique it as well. A fan can enjoy the parks, but also state their dissatisfaction with what is going on. TDO's attitude is people will come because, hey, we are Disney and gosh darn it, people love us. Their attitude is, they can cut entertainment and people won't care. They will still come. We will still get their money. Heck, let's shut all the effects on all the rides off, cancel all entertainment, and take all characters out of the character meals, and hey, people will come.

I venture to say, those of us who bring up the problems that need to be address are the ones who truly care. Those who see Disney as perfect, their management as perfect, and every decision made as perfect are blind to the problems. These are the people TDO want to appeal to. Those of you who say, "We are willing to give you $3000 for a week and get back only $500 worth of entertainment."


My response to all of their hot air is that I have just purchased a second membership in D23 on my lunchbreak.

The hot air we are spewing is designed to get the attention of people who are sick of the status quo of Disney's Orlando do nothing management team. I still encourage everyone to write letters, emails and make phone calls to voice their displeasure.

As for D23, I am glad you joined a 2nd time. I want to see this succeed so joining twice is a good thing. D23 has a huge potential to be awesome. However, Disney failed to deliver the goods. I am going to join with the hopes that I help this succeed. But, they need to offer more. I do have a feeling more is coming.

[jrpersinger]

Want to see 4 For A Dollar? Go to SeaWorld. They are now performing there.

Again, let Disney know your displeasure. Let them know their surveys are a LIE. It is time we stand up to this pathetic leadership in WDW.



Awesome! I thought they were only there during Christmas. I didn't realize they were extended. We are going to SeaWorld in Aug so I will make sure I go find them! I love them, I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I heard they had been let go. Such talent.... to be replace by what? (and I did send in my letter, a couple actually about that!)

[GothMickey]

Awesome! I thought they were only there during Christmas. I didn't realize they were extended. We are going to SeaWorld in Aug so I will make sure I go find them! I love them, I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I heard they had been let go. Such talent.... to be replace by what? (and I did send in my letter, a couple actually about that!)

Just double check that. I was under the impression they performed their daily now. But, that may not be the case. They were the only reason to go see Beauty and the Beast: Live on Stage. Now, there is no reason to see it anymore. There is another show that needs to be changed out.

[lockedoutlogic]

Imagineer1981, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) here are being duplicitous.

On one forum they will argue that 3rd-party restaurants serve better food and offer better service than do most of the Disney O&O outlets; but on another forum, when there is an announcement about a Disney O&O restaurant giving way to a third-party restaurant, they refuse to call this an "improvement".

On one forum they lament the conditions of rides such as Space Mountain; but on another forum they refuse to recognize the refurbishment that is in progress on that attraction as an "improvement", nor that the money spent on said improvement is a "reinvestment".

On one forum they opine for the halcyon days of when the Walt Disney World Skyway to Tomorrowland offered terrific views of the MK; but on another forum they pooh-pooh the idea of a brand new attraction that easily will trump the views from the old Skyway. "Not an improvement", they argue... or "Doesn't cost them enough money", they claim... or "I can see that same view at my local zoo"... (???)

Basically, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) are so invested in the concept of Disney doing wrong, that even when they run counter to their own previous arguments, they refuse to admit the possibility of Disney doing something even semi-decent.

My response to all of their hot air is that I have just purchased a second membership in D23 on my lunchbreak.

:mickey:


This is off in so many ways....

If you want to have a point/counterpoint debate on all things disney....let me know and we'll get a moderator and block out the time....

but if you goal is to hastily and sloppily slap together a bunch of different subjects and get confused as to how an individual poster feels on them....individually....

then mission: accomplished.

My advice: go back and look at the threads you seem to be "citing" and reread them...I think you'll see that there is a general consensus of opinion amongst the indiviudal posters' thoughts.

The balloon/ skyway view is a great one...by the way.....

I wonder how many years it's been since the skyway has been mentioned on this or any other board.....and i'm dying to see the balloon comparison (actually i'm not....it so silly it's not worth the keystrokes)

[JRocker]

omg, I hate it when I post on the wrong thread.

Of course, this one is so similar to the other bash disney management thread.:secret:

I don't necessarily agree with what Disney is doing right now, and I don't necessarily agree with some of the reaction to it either.

What we have to remember is that Disney is a publicly owned company and thier responsibility is to the shareholders. Not the little shareholders like you and I, but the big shareholders that control the company.

If Disney makes huge investments in this climate, the shareholders will cry foul. When this happens, you could lose the company. Now, whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another topic...

They are limited to what they can do, and get away with.

I agree, petition. But what are you going to petition? You have to be specific. If you petition that you don't like the lack of creativity in new developements, well, such a broad stroke WILL get ignored. However, if you are specific, the topic may have a better chance of being addressed.

BTW. One sure way of getting a petition ignored is to complain about a ride that you hate, that hasn't even been completed yet.

[JPL]

I have an idea let's all embrace the cutbacks and watch Disney turn into Six Flags and then complain how bad it has gotten after the fact. Seriously for anyone to think that Disney management is flawless is just insane. They make plenty of mistakes and then try to cover them up before they hit the bottom line. Which is all they really care about. In this difficult economic time Disney should offer guests more for their money not less. They should be saying yes we know you are hurting we are too but if you come here we can garauntee the best value for your vacation dollar. Sorry but lately I feel like I am being nickel and dimed to death.
WDW simply feels that there are enough people right now who will still make that once in a lifetime trip or once every couple of year that their attendance will not suffer from these cutbacks. An uneducated visitor would just think that Wishes and Fantasmic were always only shown 2 days a week and move on. The person visiting for the first time will never know this character left this location to them there was never a character there. The person experiencing a ride like Everest with effects turned off will not notice either. But what they fail to see is that these guests will be much less impressed with the place and therefore much less likely to return anytime soon. These are the people we all talk to from time to time. Who say yeah I went to WDW it was ok, I don't see what all the fuss is about. I won't be going back there for a long time if ever.

One thing Disney has always been about is tradition and they are letting that slip away chasing the $$$$. They encouraged tradition for years. People came to the parks and started their own traditions like having their pictures taken with a certain character at certain place very year to watch their children grow. Now that character may be gone and the tradition lost. Why all so Disney can squeeze a few extra pennies out their guests.

Nobody on this ste is a Disney hater. I love Disney but I will Criticize the things I don't like as well as praise those I do. I will point out bad decisions and state my opinion. Hey if you see everything through pixie dust covered glasses good for you but don't be surprised when you rub your eyes and see that the magic has disappeared.

[valjane]

I get tired of hearing the "Disney has to take care of its stockholders first" argument. Yeah, I suppose in the corporate world that's true, but I'm not sure it's good business sense to ONLY focus on the shareholders and forget about the clients/customers in the process.

Not only are they cutting back on things that distinguish WDW from places like Six Flags, but they're charging more for it, too, for no good reason. So you're paying more, getting less.

For example: holiday buffet pricing. Great idea. Let's offer the EXACT same menu as always, but make a quick buck by charging $5 extra at certain times when more people are bound to be coming through.

Or.... let's increase ticket prices and dates and capacity for MVMCP but get rid of special party buttons and free family photos. And oh yeah, let's let the day guests stay there, too, as long as they're contained to the shops and not the rides.

We went to MVMCP every year for many years, but this past year we finally decided enough was enough. Not for us.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Nice post JPL... I love Disney like the rest of you, but, to think they make the right decisions 100% of the time is flawed thinking... I agree with gothmickey, locked, Ian, and JPL... They are after the quick buck, giving us less and less for our money... I ready to bombard them with letters and calls... Gothmickey, get the group stated... Let's do this!!!!!

[JRocker]

I get tired of hearing the "Disney has to take care of its stockholders first" argument. Yeah, I suppose in the corporate world that's true, but I'm not sure it's good business sense to ONLY focus on the shareholders and forget about the clients/customers in the process.

I totally agree, but that is my point exactly. It is bad business, in the long run. Unfortunately for those of us who enjoy the end product, the shareholder is more about the right now. How much MORE money did the company make when compared to last year. When the company fails to meet those expectations, regardless of how they are building for the future, the company loses. Some company from Belgium swoops in with empty promises, a big loan, and shareholder support.

I'm sorry, but the equation of Lean Times + Publicly Owned = Poor results for the consumer.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Oh, and DCA should count as a huge reinvestment.

If it was done right the first time, they wouldn't have to reinvent billions into a theme park that was destined to fail from the start... Seriously, a theme park about California in California... Who would have thunk that park would be a bust???

[DizneyFreak2002]

I totally agree, but that is my point exactly. It is bad business, in the long run. Unfortunately for those of us who enjoy the end product, the shareholder is more about the right now. How much MORE money did the company make when compared to last year. When the company fails to meet those expectations, regardless of how they are building for the future, the company loses. Some company from Belgium swoops in with empty promises, a big loan, and shareholder support.

I'm sorry, but the equation of Lean Times + Publicly Owned = Poor results for the consumer.

This is part of the reason our economy is in the tank, with companies on the brink of bankruptcy... Disney's continued practice of quick buck making, forgetting long term will be the downfall of their theme parks...

[cgriff]

DizFreak, WDW management is correct 100% of the time? C'mon...

[cgriff]

Seriously, a theme park about California in California... Who would have thunk that park would be a bust???

More duplicity. People were critical of Eisner when DCA was created. And now current Disney management is being criticized for spending tons to fix it. It's like people are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

BTW, I am not saying that Disney got DCA right (I've never been there); however, as a general concept, a theme park about California in California does appeal to me... Ever been to SeaWorld of Texas? You're gonna get a big dose of "Texas" when you go there. Ever been to Universal Studios in Hollywood? Yep, you're gonna get a big dose of Hollywood there. It's a way of getting a feel for the legend of a place, when you can't visit all of the state's farflung historical places... I am not from California, but would I like to learn something about California while visiting a Disney theme park; sure!!

[Hammer]

Yep. They did the same thing after 9/11 (which was even more despicable, IMO).

So what they'll do is cut back 30% of offerings now and then, when the economy rebounds, they'll bring back 10% of the cuts and sell them as "new and exciting changes at the Walt Disney World Resort!"

One common thread runs throughout Corporate America ... they really believe the general public is stupid.

Sadly, in many cases, they are 100% correct. ;)

Ian, totally agree with this post, and that line of thinking can be expanded to how sports teams are run, what TV networks put on the schedule, etc...


Corporate America has become insanely risk averse when it comes to spending money. If you can't trace a clear relationship between the expense the ROI forget it ... the money won't be spent.

You can debate endlessly whether it's right, wrong, indifferent ... whether it's because the execs want to line their pockets at the expense of everything else ... whether it's the way Wall Street looks at company balance sheets, or whatever.

But the bottom line is that Disney follows the same model that all of Corporate America follows without stopping to think that they're not in the same business as a bank or a brokerage house or even a retail chain.

They sell experiences and if they continually cut back and cheapen the experience, eventually people will stop buying their product.

The problem is that Disney corporation has grown too large to cater to one division such as resorts and parks. They think of how giving a bunch of money to one area will effect other divisions like TV. I'm not saying that is right, just the way it is.


Lockedout, c'mon, stop agitating. :stop:

There is quite a bit of reinvestment and/or improvements going on in the parks. Read the Tidbits sticky at the top of this board for starters, plus you've got your Space Mountain refurb, new construction in Tomorrowland (new stage show?), new construction at DTD (hot air balloon ride?), new restaurants (Kouzinne), new resorts (4 Seasons/Western Way/Pop expansion)... These are just the things off the top of my head... Seems to me that there is quite a bit of reinvestment/improvement projects going on, considering the current economic clime.

1) Space Mountain refurb- as has been stated, the budget for this has been sliced in half so you are only getting half of what could have been done.

2) New stage show- Really? That's a big improvement to you? I think it is a waste of space on a character whose mass appeal was about 10 years ago...

3)Hot air balloon ride- Like Ian and locked stated, hardly a unique experience. Please give me the opportunity for an experience I do not have in my back yard.

4) Kouzinna- While this restaurant has promise, it is not an addition. One restaurant is switching out with another.

5) Four Seasons- This is not an investment by Disney. This is Disney admitting that they cannot provide a true luxury resort experience by attracting top resort staff with what they are willing to pay their employees. We have had this discussion before and I am not going to beat a :beat: .

[DizneyFreak2002]

Well $16 a person for a family is $64 for a 10 minute experience. IMHO that's pretty steep in these times.

And for what, the magical view???

[Tekneek]

But the bottom line is that Disney follows the same model that all of Corporate America follows without stoping to think that they're not in the same business as a bank or a brokerage house or even a retail chain.

From what I have read recently, this is the philosophy that is taught to all the business grads out there. A one size fits all approach to business management. The idea that the rules are the same, no matter what your business does. Just about the only time you see these rules broken are when visionaries/innovators are at the helm. When you let managers run the place, you end up with people who are just trying to shake more pennies loose from everything. Their vision extends to the bottom line of the financial statement and not much farther. They have no imagination, because they don't teach that in Executive MBA programs.

[lockedoutlogic]

From what I have read recently, this is the philosophy that is taught to all the business grads out there. A one size fits all approach to business management. The idea that the rules are the same, no matter what your business does. Just about the only time you see these rules broken are when visionaries/innovators are at the helm. When you let managers run the place, you end up with people who are just trying to shake more pennies loose from everything. Their vision extends to the bottom line of the financial statement and not much farther. They have no imagination, because they don't teach that in Executive MBA programs.

Two things:

1. Because disney is publically held and part of the DJIA....don't confuse it with Microsoft, Exxon, Proctor and Gamble, or Walmart

Disney's entire product is perception and emotion. Parks, Movies, Toys, TV, Radio.....it's not the physical product that they are peddling....that is only the biproduct.

So...the "in business....fiduciary responsibility is the key to longterm growth and profit sustainability" line of thought should not be strictly applied to Disney. It doesn't fit with what the do or what they have ever done....

2. Don't confuse the Disney Management ranks with the Wharton or Harvard Business School types....
Undoubtedly, they have many of those....but disney shows possibly the least amount of regard for Pedigreed businessmen of any company in america. They still allow management to be generated from the ice cream cart up....with many in park operations rising to high levels without impressive education resumes....

Types like Al Weiss have a BS from UCF and an MBA from Rollins college......

not much paperwork for running Billions of dollars in operations in 5 countries on 3 continents

And Weiss is a token Central Florida plant for PR purposes anyway....

Entertainment companies can be like that.....hollywood is run by cutthroats who get to where they are by consuming the blood of those that stand in their way.....not by pedigree

See: EISNER, MICHAEL

[cgriff]

Not really jumping to conclusions but I will say this after following WDW trends for as long as I have it's not a far jump...

Ok, but at least *you* recognize the embarrasing, certainly non-useful nature of complaining about Disney management for a decision that they haven't made and may never make, right? [There has been no official communication regarding any Wishes cutbacks].

Since you follow WDW trends closely, you know then that the last two refurbs in MK of classic Disney attractions --Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion --were both major, home-run successes! They were also both venomously criticized by the Disney fanboy community during the refurbishment period. Per the trend, the current Space Mountain refurb, if not another smash success, should at least be an improvement over the ride's current state.

[GothMickey]

Ok, but at least *you* recognize the embarrasing, certainly non-useful nature of complaining about Disney management for a decision that they haven't made and may never make, right? [There has been no official communication regarding any Wishes cutbacks].

Since you follow WDW trends closely, you know then that the last two refurbs in MK of classic Disney attractions --Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion --were both major, home-run successes! They were also both venomously criticized by the Disney fanboy community during the refurbishment period. Per the trend, the current Space Mountain refurb, if not another smash success, should at least be an improvement over the ride's current state.

Haunted Mansion: I agree that the refurbishment was a major upgrade.

Pirates: I wouldn't consider it a home run success. The Jack Sparrows don't add to the ride.

Space Mountain: Don't count on this being HUGE. Again, the budget has been cut. The refurb, therefore, has been slashed. Will it be an improvement over what's there now? It better be an approvement over a 30 something year old ride. But, again, it could have been so much more. THIS is what I am calling out Disney, more specifically, ORLANDO'S management team out on.

When I get a chance, I am going to go park by park and point out their failures. If we can give them the credit for successes, then we can knock them for their failures.

[lockedoutlogic]

Ok, but at least *you* recognize the embarrasing, certainly non-useful nature of complaining about Disney management for a decision that they haven't made and may never make, right? [There has been no official communication regarding any Wishes cutbacks].

Since you follow WDW trends closely, you know then that the last two refurbs in MK of classic Disney attractions --Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion --were both major, home-run successes! They were also both venomously criticized by the Disney fanboy community during the refurbishment period. Per the trend, the current Space Mountain refurb, if not another smash success, should at least be an improvement over the ride's current state.

While I can certainly respect your desire to defend the faith....to a certain extent....you are way off on this one...

the Pirates and Haunted Mansion refurbs not only were for sprucing things up....they also included additonal elements to be integrated into the ride....

Space Mountain....on the otherhand....is getting nothing but barebones mechanical necessities and paint....if the latest plan is true....

that is a big mistake....

First....I've been on 3 of the space mountains....and i can tell you that the DL and DLP space mountains put the WDW version to absolute shame...

Granted...not all rides are gonna turn out the same....some better, some worse....but space mountain has basically been left to rot in many ways in Florida....which is silly for two reasons

1. It's in Florida....you know? Cape Canaveral? NASA?
2. It's the original...and WDW entertains the most guests by far.....
Realistically speaking....WDW should have the "best" of all the cloned rides....never the worst....from a sheer exposure standpoint.

A six month timeframe is not gonna cut it for a ride such as space mountain....i'm sorry...IT AIN'T

That is a fun - but violent (for 35 MPH and 35 years old) ride...and lacks any modern feel to the ride....the integrated sound would have been enough.....perhaps some holographic type imagery....maybe some advanced lighting effects....

But they're not doing it

A complete redo of the interior track to make it a completely new ride system would have been better....

They're certainly not doing that....


Nope....have to disagree here....this one is gonna be a waste of time....given the timeframe....it almost has to be

[JPL]

Ok, but at least *you* recognize the embarrasing, certainly non-useful nature of complaining about Disney management for a decision that they haven't made and may never make, right? [There has been no official communication regarding any Wishes cutbacks].



It was used as an example of how Disney views these cutbacks


From Merriam-Webster online:
Main Entry: ex·am·ple
Pronunciation: \ig-ˈzam-pəl\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French essample, example, from Latin exemplum, from eximere to take out, from ex- + emere to take — more at redeem
Date: 14th century
1: one that serves as a pattern to be imitated or not to be imitated <a good example> <a bad example>
2: a punishment inflicted on someone as a warning to others ; also : an individual so punished
3: one (as an item or incident) that is representative of all of a group or type
4: a parallel or closely similar case especially when serving as a precedent or model
5: an instance (as a problem to be solved) serving to illustrate a rule or precept or to act as an exercise in the application of a rule

I believe #4 is the one that fits this situation.

The examples you give yes Mansion was hit out of the park but was only done because the ride was literally falling apart.

Pirates I'm sorry to say was a miss IMHo sticking in 4 AA's while removing a seen at the end that was costly to maintain is more of a subtraction that an edition. It was watsed money that could have been used elsewhere. The attraction was fine the way it was no update was needed to dumb it down for people who couldn't comprehend the movie was based on the attraction not the other way around.

[Stu29573]

...and he steps into the frey....
This is my take on the situation:

1. Disney CAN do wrong and screw things up. They have done so many times in the past.
2. Walt Disney could also screw up. (examples: Black Sunday, Holidayland, The Disneyland Circus) He was, alfter all, human.
3. There have been historic times of little or no advancement in the parks. These usually last about four or five years and are followed by bursts of energy and creativity.
4. You must look at the long term. Just because things are not happening right now doesn't mean they won't in the next few years.
5. Disney does need feedback in order to continue to improve the parks and services. However, there is a fine line between spirited constructive criticism, and bashing. The former will have a much better chance of being listened to. It's just human nature.
6. Walt Disney cannot spin in his grave due to many reasons; not the least of which is that he was cremated.
7. Ok, maybe "6" was mean, but that always gets on my nerves when people say that.

There you have it! Flame away!:D

[Ian]

Wow ... got busy at work and missed so much!!

Basically, locked and JPL and Goth have me covered as far as my opinion goes, so I'll just say:

:ditto:

[Tekneek]

Undoubtedly, they have many of those....but disney shows possibly the least amount of regard for Pedigreed businessmen of any company in america. They still allow management to be generated from the ice cream cart up....with many in park operations rising to high levels without impressive education resumes....

I know what you are saying. However, I have seen actions from Disney that fall in line with the group think that takes place in all large businesses during tough times. Not much out-of-the-box thinking going on. When times get tough, these people do what everybody else expects them to do. A visionary might see an opportunity to go against the tide. Many visionaries do come up with special things in the midst of economic crisis, but mature enterprises just try to "manage" their ride through the waves of crisis.

[cgriff]

The examples you give yes Mansion was hit out of the park but was only done because the ride was literally falling apart.

C'mon, say it: the HM refurb was an improvement to the park.


Pirates I'm sorry to say was a miss...It was watsed money... no update was needed to dumb it down for people who couldn't comprehend...

While you are certainly free to dislike anything that you want to, I think that your take on the POTC refurb is outside of the mainstream of opinion here.
http://www.intercot.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=138330&referrerid=22600
What stinks is that you can't just leave it at that though, you have to try to tear down those who like what you dislike as being "dumb" (or, as LockedOutLogic terms it "way off"). These are very un-Intercot sentiments.

[cgriff]

1. Disney CAN do wrong and screw things up. They have done so many times in the past.

Agreed. No one in this thread has said that WDW management makes perfect choices and is correct 100% of the time. Those who suggest that are engaging in hyperbole.


3. There have been historic times of little or no advancement in the parks. These usually last about four or five years and are followed by bursts of energy and creativity.

Yes, we refer to these long periods of stassis interupted by surges of change as "punctuated equillibrium"... :cool:


There you have it! Flame away!:D

No flames. We are in agreement.

[JPL]

C'mon, say it: the HM refurb was an improvement to the park.

I believe I stated this when I said yes it was hit out of the park. Stating the reason it was done doesn't detract from the statement.





What stinks is that you can't just leave it at that though, you have to try to tear down those who like what you dislike as being "dumb" (or, as LockedOutLogic terms it "way off").

I never said anyone was dumb I said the ride was dumbed down. Big Difference! And the reason I stated was truthful and the big reason for the change was people asking where Captain Jack was after the movie came out. Outside of marketing more merchandise of course.



These are very un-Intercot sentiments.

As for this statement I posted opininions based on fact. And I have been here for over 10 years through thick and thin when this site was under 1000 members and moderating for almost as long. So please don't throw the un-Intercot thing at me. If you can't take and respect others opinions simply move on to another post.

[cgriff]

I believe I stated this when I said yes it was hit out of the park.

Great. We have mutually established that WDW Management has made improvements to the parks. Progress! Now, I understand that you're still claiming that it's not a trend, since you personally did not like the POTC redo; however, I have cited polling data showing that the POTC redo was quite a big hit actually; so, the numbers bear out my position here. (Besides, double-check your chronology. Which refurb was first? That's right, POTC. Followed by Haunted Mansion. Therefore, even if one ignored the polls and we said that the POTC redo was less successful than was the HM redo; since HM was refrubished more recently, that makes the trend an upward trend, with the most successful refurb occuring most recently...)

I'm willing to forgive the unfortunate "dumbing down" remark. Just don't try to repress those of us with contrary opinions, especially with any sort of elitist I-HAVE-MORE-POSTS-THAN-YOU / I-OUTRANK-YOU kind of cracks. That and a dime will get you 10 cents.


...And I have been here for over 10 years through thick and thin when this site was under 1000 members and moderating for almost as long. So please don't throw the un-Intercot thing at me.

Hey, I just said don't do that.


If you can't take and respect others opinions simply move on to another post.

Oh the irony! :drama:

P.S. Wishes still scheduled for all evenings this week. So far nothing to confirm the original rumour (sic) that started this whole brewhaha.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Without getting into the big discussion currently going on here, let me just say, since they set the precedent with Fantasmic, and if they take Wishes down any nights, they're going down a slippery slope. Veeerrrrrry slippery slope. Bad corporate. Bad bad corporate.

They been on that slipery slope for a few years now.. Why change?? Only this time, they can blame the economy for their cut backs, and people will forgive them...

[DizneyFreak2002]

Great. We have mutually established that WDW Management has made improvements to the parks. Progress! Now, I understand that you're still claiming that it's not a trend, since you personally did not like the POTC redo; however, I have cited polling data showing that the POTC redo was quite a big hit actually; so, the numbers bear out my position here. (Besides, double-check your chronology. Which refurb was first? That's right, POTC. Followed by Haunted Mansion. Therefore, even if one ignored the polls and we said that the POTC redo was less successful than was the HM redo; since HM was refrubished more recently, that makes the trend an upward trend, with the most successful refurb occuring most recently...)

I'm willing to forgive the unfortunate "dumbing down" remark. Just don't try to repress those of us with contrary opinions, especially with any sort of elitist I-HAVE-MORE-POSTS-THAN-YOU / I-OUTRANK-YOU kind of cracks. That and a dime will get you 10 cents.



Hey, I just said don't do that.



Oh the irony! :drama:

P.S. Wishes still scheduled for all evenings this week. So far nothing to confirm the original rumour (sic) that started this whole brewhaha.

You do know your polling is taken from a Disney fan site right?? Those same people, as someone here stated, who wear the pixie dusted glasses... The poll is flawed at best and prejudiced toward Disney at the worst.

[Stu29573]

You do know your polling is taken from a Disney fan site right?? Those same people, as someone here stated, who wear the pixie dusted glasses... The poll is flawed at best and prejudiced toward Disney at the worst.

Ok......should they be polling people that HATE Disney? :D

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[JPL]

Great. We have mutually established that WDW Management has made improvements to the parks. Progress! Now, I understand that you're still claiming that it's not a trend, since you personally did not like the POTC redo; however, I have cited polling data showing that the POTC redo was quite a big hit actually; so, the numbers bear out my position here. (Besides, double-check your chronology. Which refurb was first? That's right, POTC. Followed by Haunted Mansion. Therefore, even if one ignored the polls and we said that the POTC redo was less successful than was the HM redo; since HM was refrubished more recently, that makes the trend an upward trend, with the most successful refurb occuring most recently...)


First off I never said Disney has not made any improvements to the parks. So stop putting words in my mouth and taking things out of context. Since the Haunted Mansion refurb there have been more cutbacks than additions in most cases I believe that indicates a downward trend.
And again the Haunted Mansion was done more out of necessity than want. The problems before the rehab were almost too many to list just for starters most of the scrims were ripped and dirty, the audio was out of sync and not working properly for years, AA's badly in need of repairs to mention a few. Luckily they handled the situation with great care and plussing the ride. But in actually even the original plans for this refurb were greatly cutback leaving out the on-ride photo and the much needed gift shop to satisfy fans.



I'm willing to forgive the unfortunate "dumbing down" remark. Just don't try to repress those of us with contrary opinions, especially with any sort of elitist I-HAVE-MORE-POSTS-THAN-YOU / I-OUTRANK-YOU kind of cracks. That and a dime will get you 10 cents.

Not trying to repress any opinions just defending myself from an attack on my character.
But again the point was missed on you saying that I my sentiments are un-Intercot couldn't be further from the truth and I am sure many others would back that up. I never once personally attacked anyone in my posts just stated a fact of why a ride was changed and the words "dumbed down" are a common expression used frequently in the simplification of many things. It does not imply that the people who like it are dumb it says that Disney felt they needed to simplify the story to appeal to more people for any number of reasons. I have had people ask me to dumb something down for them dealing with computer on many occaisions including some of my bosses.

And I believe I asked you in an earlier post if you want to quote use the entire qoute in order and not out of context.

[Tekneek]

From my perspective, Iger is doing a lot of the things that I didn't like about Eisner. As much as I would like to think that Eisner was ran out because he went stale, I know it was really because the share price stagnated.

[lockedoutlogic]

By the way.....the "way off" remark is way right....

They are exploiting widespread economic fears to cut and slice behind the scenes....a little here...a little there....

Not out of operational need....out of opportunistic want....

Saying this doesn't make me a disney hater....it makes me someone who worked on the ground at WDW when they DID this is a previous period....

It's not bile....it's experience....and it is as plain as day....

That doesn't mean there can't be a huge upside to this tact....i've maintained that the labor demand is the single biggest issue facing growth at WDW....so if they can effectively pary....outsource.....clone....whatever it is they need to do to their labor demands....then it will make expansion a possibility again....which it isn't....

As far as entertainment goes....perhaps they need to clear the decks from time to time.....


But that doesn't change that this is still "exploitive" behavior....it is

[lockedoutlogic]

From my perspective, Iger is doing a lot of the things that I didn't like about Eisner. As much as I would like to think that Eisner was ran out because he went stale, I know it was really because the share price stagnated.

I think that the megalomaniac and paranoid behavior became to public for the tastes of everyone involved....and that ultimately led to the ouster of the Eis.....The Roy/Gold thing...the Ovitz lawsuit...the loss of every conceivable lieutenant....etc...etc...etc....

As far as Iger goes....Eisner has been documented as berating him as just a suit and lacking the creativity needed to run Disney....

he never wanted him to have the job....there just weren't any options....

Iger must prove he can do it.....even if that means bringing in a creative right hand to do all the "fun stuff"....and i don't think lasseter is it...just a stepping stone

[DizneyFreak2002]

Ok......should they be polling people that HATE Disney? :D

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Good one, but, if you are going to quote a poll as proof that a ride refurb was a major success and a home run, then be fair with it... Poll 1000 ordinary people, not Disney geeks from a Disney fan site, and see what the consensus is... Using a poll one an obvious Disney fan site is not good proof that a refurb was a smashing success.. :)

[DizneyFreak2002]

And again the Haunted Mansion was done more out of necessity than want. The problems before the rehab were almost too many to list just for starters most of the scrims were ripped and dirty, the audio was out of sync and not working properly for years, AA's badly in need of repairs to mention a few. Luckily they handled the situation with great care and plussing the ride. But in actually even the original plans for this refurb were greatly cutback leaving out the on-ride photo and the much needed gift shop to satisfy fans.

The HM refurb was a great example of what Imagineering can do if given the opportunity rto do what THEY want to do.. Instead, management tells WDI what to do now.. WDI is no longer allowed to be innovative and imaginative... Management has ruined an once great group... I may have to say, Universal Creative may start to have the edge now with Harry Potter looking every bit of awesome, a new Transformers ride which sounds like a Disney killer, and a few other massive projects just waiting to get the green light... Disney, watch out... The competition caught up and will soon be passing ya... See ya in the rear view...

[lockedoutlogic]

The HM refurb was a great example of what Imagineering can do if given the opportunity rto do what THEY want to do.. Instead, management tells WDI what to do now.. WDI is no longer allowed to be innovative and imaginative... Management has ruined an once great group... I may have to say, Universal Creative may start to have the edge now with Harry Potter looking every bit of awesome, a new Transformers ride which sounds like a Disney killer, and a few other massive projects just waiting to get the green light... Disney, watch out... The competition caught up and will soon be passing ya... See ya in the rear view...


you have learned much....but you still have much to learn.....

universals developments far exceed disney's currently.....but it will take more than some rides to ever get close.....

probably like a thousand....

don't doubt the mouse's hold over the psyche....that's the "magic" of disney

[DizneyFreak2002]

I think that the megalomaniac and paranoid behavior became to public for the tastes of everyone involved....and that ultimately led to the ouster of the Eis.....The Roy/Gold thing...the Ovitz lawsuit...the loss of every conceivable lieutenant....etc...etc...etc....

As far as Iger goes....Eisner has been documented as berating him as just a suit and lacking the creativity needed to run Disney....

he never wanted him to have the job....there just weren't any options....

Iger must prove he can do it.....even if that means bringing in a creative right hand to do all the "fun stuff"....and i don't think lasseter is it...just a stepping stone

Lasseter is a Pixar lacky... He worries about Pixar and only Pixar.. You think all Pixar all the time in WDW is just a coincidence??? Plus, Lasseter's concern is Disneyland, not WDW...

[Mickey91]

I cannot believe that anyone is so blind not to see what JPL and Ian are saying!! I have told my DH for years that the prices keep going up and the service keeps going down! The parks are way dirtier and the paint is no longer perfect! The cut backs are to line the pockets of execs and shareholders and no, the "new" stuff isn't great, it isn't good, it is dumb!! I cannot believe anyone actually likes the new DUMBED DOWN version of SSE!! I do not need Mrs Calloway telling me the Roman roads were the first world wide web and the monks were the first back up system!! What happened to Jeremy Irons saying "ah, the renaissance!"

The polls they supposedly took telling them what more people wanted were a joke!! But, some people will follow anywhere they are lead...

[PirateLover]

The Channel 6 zoo balloon? I love that.....nothing like a birds eye view of the poorly constucted Schuyk and rows house for miles...:thumbsup:

Not to derail the gripping dialogue (and I'm not being sarcastic) but I once forced my boyfriend who is afraid of heights onto said Zoo Balloon oh about 4 years ago maybe. I spent the whole time worried about him either puking, or breaking my hand from holding so hard, that I didn't pay attention to much. Although I do remember them saying "On a CLEAR day, you can see the Jersey Shore!"
I do not think we will be doing the DTD Balloon.

Oh yea and wishes getting cut back so much would be INSANE.

[GothMickey]

I cannot believe that anyone is so blind not to see what JPL and Ian are saying!! I have told my DH for years that the prices keep going up and the service keeps going down! The parks are way dirtier and the paint is no longer perfect! The cut backs are to line the pockets of execs and shareholders and no, the "new" stuff isn't great, it isn't good, it is dumb!! I cannot believe anyone actually likes the new DUMBED DOWN version of SSE!! I do not need Mrs Calloway telling me the Roman roads were the first world wide web and the monks were the first back up system!! What happened to Jeremy Irons saying "ah, the renaissance!"

The polls they supposedly took telling them what more people wanted were a joke!! But, some people will follow anywhere they are lead...

I, for one, thought the refurbishment of SSE was pretty good, except for the Judi Dench speil. She is totally monotone, boring, and the speil makes me feel like I am brainless. The end of the ride has a lot to be desired. That is due to the fact that management wanted the ride open for a certain time, even though the refurbishment wasn't complete. And it still isn't. There is some 3rd shift work going on. There will be a completed descent back to earth eventually. Maybe as soon as Easter break in April. And we may have Tomorrow's Child back as well, but, that is just a rumor right now.

[lockedoutlogic]

Lasseter is a Pixar lacky... He worries about Pixar and only Pixar.. You think all Pixar all the time in WDW is just a coincidence??? Plus, Lasseter's concern is Disneyland, not WDW...

Of course he only cares about Disneyland....he can go to it....

If i were in the same position....i can't say i wouldn't be the same way...

disneyland is the hollywood playground....florida is the industrial money manufacturing plant.....

it's still that way to a certain extent

[cgriff]

You do know your polling is taken from a Disney fan site right?? ...The poll is flawed.

Oh my, the claims that most of us here are ill-informed "dummies" continues...

Since you're statements are on this site too, DizneyFreak2002, then they are apt to be as wrong as the polls.

[cgriff]

JPL, if the recent HM redo had included a forced exit through a gift shop, you mean to say that no one of your ilk would have complained about the money-grubbing nature of such a move?

[lockedoutlogic]

Oh my, the claims that most of us here are ill-informed "dummies" continues...

Since you're statements are on this site too, DizneyFreak2002, then they are apt to be as wrong as the polls.

can we please stop with the offended card?

This is not about wounding feelings....there are two sides to this discussion....

One is that disney is "wishes, dreams, wonder, magic" and they are NOT...in fact....attempting to cut costs while still maintaining or increasing prices....and they AREN'T in a period of no development.....while also cutting down the refurbishment of attractions....

The otherside is that they are doing those things....

I think we all know where we stand....can we either bring the conversation back up to an adult level? as opposed to the "jimmy ate my glue" type stuff.....or just end it altogther?

[Nascfan]

They been on that slipery slope for a few years now.. Why change?? Only this time, they can blame the economy for their cut backs, and people will forgive them...

Well, yeah, but I was going based strictly on the nighttime entertainment at the parks. The "closing ceremonies", if you will.

[GothMickey]

Oh my, the claims that most of us here are ill-informed "dummies" continues...

Since you're statements are on this site too, DizneyFreak2002, then they are apt to be as wrong as the polls.

I don't think he was calling anyone on here dummies. As locked suggested, stop with the offended remarks. Nothing said here has been offensive at all, nor degrading in nature. You site a poll on a Disney fan website, where the members LOVE Disney. Now, do you honestly think the poll isn't flawed on merit alone?

No one here thinks you or any one else are dummies. You just see things through pixie dusted glasses. That doesn't make you a dummy. And we never called you that.

Again, you stated Disney is reinvesting money into the parks. On the face, that is true. But, the substance and product they are producing has a lot to be desired, and, in my opinion totally cheap. Stitch's Galactic Celebration is a huge waste of space. Demolishing Galaxy Palace Theater for a parking lot is a huge waste of major real estate. Slashing the budget for Space Mountain is going to give half of a refurb. HM's refurb, though awesome, was also slashed in half. Pirates was not plussed in any sort of way. Just a cheap "refurb" to market PotC toys and other Jack Sparrow merchandise.

Sadly, I cannot name one thing in the last 5-7 years that has been a complete knock out of the park home run. And please don't say Toy Story Midway Mania and Everest. There are major issues there too.

[cgriff]

there are two sides to this discussion....

One is that disney is "wishes, dreams, wonder, magic" and they are NOT...in fact....attempting to cut costs while still maintaining or increasing prices....and they AREN'T in a period of no development.....while also cutting down the refurbishment of attractions...

Who is on that side of the discussion? That is certainly not a proper recitation of what I have been saying. For one, I never claimed that Disney was not trying to cut costs... In another thread on Intercot entitled "Cut-backs", you will see that I have mentioned shorter park hours as an example of cost-cutting that is going on.

[lockedoutlogic]

Who is on that side of the discussion? That is certainly not a proper recitation of what I have been saying. For one, I never claimed that Disney was not trying to cut costs... In another thread on Intercot entitled "Cut-backs", you will see that I have mentioned shorter park hours as an example of cost-cutting that is going on.

really?

my bad then....i must have heard it wrong when it came out:thedolls:

[JPL]

JPL, if the recent HM redo had included a forced exit through a gift shop, you mean to say that no one of your ilk would have complained about the money-grubbing nature of such a move?

Actually I was all for the exit into the gift shop since the Haunted Mansion fan market is something that Disney is really missing the boat on. And if you want facts to back that every Haunted Mansion event Disney has held sold out completely in a matter of minutes including the upcoming one in September which sold out in 3 minutes to be exact. These are the places Disney should be making their money. I have no problems with Disney being a profitable healthy company. I am a fan of quality unique Disney Park merchandise and own quite a bit of it. I am not a fan of cheap pirate toys I can buy at my local Wal-mart for a third of the price which is what park merchandise has become along with the generic merchandise that spans both coasts. Listen this discussion can go on forever the cold facts show Disney cutting back every chance they get to become more profitable and at the expense of the guest experience. I could list examples of this if you would like but I think we can all see them for ourselves. These cuts have been going on over a long period of time and have spiked recently with the excuse of the economy being wielded.
And like the statement or not they are preying on unsuspecting customers especially those who are not always knowledgable about WDW and it's history. As I stated earlier when they cutback showings of Fantasmic, Wishes or any other show for that matter, the average guests excepts the schedule because they might not have known a few months ago it was everyday. They cutback Epcot park hours and do you think the first time visitor or someone who hasn't been to the parks in years is going to notice?
The reasons behind changes to rides and maintenance issues are not always 100% visible to the general public but trust me word gets around and even former Imagineers speak about the problems. I recently listened to an interview with one of the Imagineers who worked on the refurb and changes to SSE. he said the figures in the ride couldn't even salvage they were in such disrepair and he basically they all dread the day they turn the attraction over to operations because they know it doesn't get the care it needs. When going into a meeting about the changes it goes from OK this is what is needed to be done to well how much can you do for X amount of money because that's all you have.

[DizneyFreak2002]

I'm with Jeff... I would have loved a HM gift shop after the ride.. I don't even mind the gift shop at the end of Space Mountain.. I don't mind any of the gift shops... Disney is missing a huge market with any of these shops... They load up on Pooh stuff after that ride, but they fill the gift shop after Space Mountain with Hannah Montana and HSM garbage... How about some SM stuff??? Disney is not doing stuff right lately, and it shows massively...

[Mickey91]

I, for one, thought the refurbishment of SSE was pretty good, except for the Judi Dench speil. She is totally monotone, boring, and the speil makes me feel like I am brainless. The end of the ride has a lot to be desired. That is due to the fact that management wanted the ride open for a certain time, even though the refurbishment wasn't complete. And it still isn't. There is some 3rd shift work going on. There will be a completed descent back to earth eventually. Maybe as soon as Easter break in April. And we may have Tomorrow's Child back as well, but, that is just a rumor right now.
I certainly hope this is true. Too bad they won't rewrite the whole dialogue and have someone else record it. Don't get me wrong, I love Judy Dench, just not as my SSE narrator. Tomorrows Child would be a most welcome return.

[Mickey91]

They need to get back to specialized souvenirs. Not only does it get old coming out of SM and buying the same Hannah Montana stuff you can get at Walmart, it is ashame not to have the special SM merchandise. Used to be we could get the kids to try new things with the bribe of getting a cool new tshirt or mug or something. Now, they can the same stuff in the parks that they get at the resort. And, the cool Hannah Montana wig my daughter got at DDT BBB, saw it at the store not long ago. IN VIRGINIA!! Now why did I pay for her to have the secret star experience? They duped me once but they can't do it again. And that is the problem. They leep coming up with more ways to cut costs at my expense. We have to save all year to go to WDW. This year we may not even get to go. I'm sorry to say that with all the cut backs, I'm not too disappointed. Yes, it will take awhile for it to hit, but too many people are feeling this way for it not to affect WDW at some point. The generic merchandise, the generic refillable mugs, the lesser quality, what reason do I have for buying anymore if it is the same old thing? Why do I need to buy a tshirt in every park if they all look alike? We used to buy good quality merchandise and reasonable prices. Now we buy shoddy merchandise at unbelievable prices. We have gone to WDW every year since 2000 and I am disappointed more every time we go. The service goes down, the quality goes down and the prices go up. And, I cannot tell you how sick of Pixar I am. I love the Pixar movies and I know they have been more creative than Disney lately, I even like the Midway Mania, but take out Mickey Ave and name it Pixar Place? Bad Form!!

Now, if they would like to have unique, one of a kind, good quality merchandise, I am all for a haunted mansion gift shop. I love gift shops!! I just don't like to have 30 of them with the exact same stuff!

And I have to ask, cgriff, Are you the mastermind behind all the insane cutbacks and are trying to defend them??? I just don't get it. No one else has to agree with my latest rantings, but this is a great place to get them off my chest. And sometimes we even get rewarded knowing someone else is just as frustrated. But do we have to have your sour remarks putting down everything said? You are entitled to your opinions about things but please make them about the subject at hand and not about others here. It is getting old. So, just to help get us all back on track:

I think that if the rumor is true about only 2 showings of Wishes, we won't be wasting our money there for a while. I'm not going to line the shareholders' pockets and get nothing in return.:mad:

[GothMickey]

Mickey91, loved your post. The one thing about Hollywood Studios: it is a poorly designed park. Blame Eisner for that mishap. He HAD to beat Universal's opening. Because of that, the park is poorly laid out, and horribly designed. It is the only park without a spoke and wheel design. The crowd flow is horrible. As for the park, it needs work. I like that they are finally getting to helping it out, but, it needs more. I am all for Pixar Place, but, make it bigger and not a street. Talk with Lucas and make Skywalker Studios or Lucas Studios or Lucas Place. Expand into the parking lot behind Indiana Jones. Update Great Movie Ride. Change Beauty and the Beast out, it has had its run.

As for gift shops, there is no reason why Hannah Montana and HSM should be plastered ANYWHERE in Magic Kingdon, Epcot, or Animal Kingdom. Leave that nonsense in Hollywood Studios and World of Disney. Disney has really lost its way. Leadership only sees the green. Sadly they would be making MORE green if they weren't so blinded by the quick, almighty dollar.

As for Wishes: I have asked a few people and they heard nothing about Wishes going to 2 nights a week. Especially since the park hours have increased recently. They are, unfortunately, dealing with the massive layoff promised 2 months ago. Started yesterday and will continue though next week.

[lockedoutlogic]

I don't think you'll ever see specialized merchandise again....

It adds to overhead....and it's difficult for the 3rd Graders in China to alter the machines to make specialized toys....

I kid.....ok.....not really:mickey:

Anyway....the profit at WDW is all merchandise...the vast lion's share....

So if you tinker with it....even adding pennies of cost on the dollar....it is a huge hit to the bottomline....

And as Yogurt says: "Moichendising....Where the REAL MONEY IS MADE!!!!!!!!"

[big blue and hairy]

As far as the other three you mention ... really?? You're giving them credit for a hot air balloon ride?? Well, sure! It's part of the green initiative. They had to do something with all the hot air coming out of the marketing department...:funny:

:sulley:

[lockedoutlogic]

Well, sure! It's part of the green initiative. They had to do something with all the hot air coming out of the marketing department...:funny:

:sulley:

That wasn't even fair....like fishing with dynamite:funny:

[Ian]

That wasn't even fair....like fishing with dynamite:funny:But funny, nevertheless! :D

[valjane]

Oh man, I can remember the days when you could buy Hollywood/movie/TV themed merchandise at the Studios.

You could buy frontier stuff (cowboys and indians, turquoise jewelry) in Frontierland, and cool pirate stuff in Adventureland.

I used to love shopping at WDW, but now I really just need one 15 minute stop in the resort gift shop to see everything I need to see, because that's all there is!

All the stores are exactly the same. It makes me sad.

[joonyer]

I agree. Last fall at Fort Wilderness I wanted to buy a hat with the Fort Wilderness logo on it. Guess what? They don't sell them. What??
Every state park/private campground I've ever been to had their own souvenir hats. But not FW. They only had the generic Disney hats you can get at any park or resort. I couldn't believe it, so disappointed.

[big blue and hairy]

I like the resort specific stuff too. I miss it.

:sulley:

[GothMickey]

Well, the layoffs are in full swing. Executives, secretaries, non-unioned employees, with a possibe reach into front line CMs. A lot of managers have been escorted out by security. Morale is said to be extremely low. Read around on the internet and you will see many former employees describing how the last 3 days have been very sad. And yet, people like Meg Crofton, Phil Holmes, Jay Rasulo, and Al Weiss, just to name a few, are left in charge to continue making the poor decisions that have eroded WDW's brand. I am praying this new restructuring will take away a lot of their power. If not, WDW is doomed until Iger gets a clue.

[lockedoutlogic]

Well, the layoffs are in full swing. Executives, secretaries, non-unioned employees, with a possibe reach into front line CMs. A lot of managers have been escorted out by security. Morale is said to be extremely low. Read around on the internet and you will see many former employees describing how the last 3 days have been very sad. And yet, people like Meg Crofton, Phil Holmes, Jay Rasulo, and Al Weiss, just to name a few, are left in charge to continue making the poor decisions that have eroded WDW's brand. I am praying this new restructuring will take away a lot of their power. If not, WDW is doomed until Iger gets a clue.


Yeah...I read a couple of little snippets about this being "layoff week" down there as well....

it's been kinda kept under wraps....no sentinel exposes.....(Shocking considering the editor's office is practically located in Team Disney)...I saw similar comments about managers being walked....which is usually the only layoffs they can do because the union contracts by and large protect from layoffs on a whim....i'm more curious if office and technical personnel in non-management positions are let go...

If there is a widespread gut in O&T....then that is a sign of how serious they are about actually clearing payroll....

A few managers following a five year glut of management hiring during boom is pretty much a standard operation at this point

If anyone picks up something more on layoffs...give a shout to the board

[lockedoutlogic]

wait....i see the sentinel and tampa tribune have in fact picked up on it.....hopefully there will be more to follow and the public might get a better idea of the purge that is mobilizing by the day down there.....

which of course comes as wall street is preaching doom and gloom for WDC.....but it's stock price continues to rise and is now creeping up to $20 a share...

certainly not where it was a year ago....but still making progress

[GothMickey]

From the Orlando Sentinel:


Hundreds lose jobs as Disney World layoffs accelerate

Jason Garcia | Sentinel Staff Writer 11:58 AM EDT, March 26, 2009 Walt Disney World (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/travel/tourism-leisure/theme-park-vacations/walt-disney-world-resort-PLREC000087.topic) has stepped up layoffs this week, as the company prepares to close out its fiscal second quarter at the end of this month.

Disney, which is Central Florida's largest employer with about 62,000 "cast members," refused to say Thursday how many jobs it has eliminated. But one person familiar with some details of the cuts said he was given an estimate of 450.

Employees said the cuts, which predominantly target salaried workers, have occurred across the resort's back-office functions, including entertainment, merchandise, finance, transportation, training, emergency management and theme-park operations.

"It's property-wide," said Donna-Lynne Dalton, business agent for the Teamsters Local 385 union, which represents characters, laundry workers, parking attendants and ranch hands. She noted, however, that the job cuts have not affected unionized employees.

I was told that they are going to be walking people out through Friday," she said.

One former employee, who said he was laid off Wednesday after more than 10 years at Disney World, said he was personally familiar with about two-dozen others who lost their jobs. Another worker laid off this week said he personally knew about 20 others whose jobs were eliminated.

"We're not talking about one or two people. We're talking about 30 or 40 people in some areas," one of the laid-off employees said. Both spoke on the condition they not be identified, for fear of losing their severance pay.

Disney announced in February that it would begin slashing jobs as part of a corporate restructuring in which it is combining functions between Disney World and Disneyland in Anaheim (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/us/california/orange-county-%28california%29/anaheim-PLGEO100100103010000.topic), Calif.

"We think these changes are essential to maintaining our leadership position in family tourism, and they reflect today's economic realities," Disney spokesman Mike Griffin (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/economy-business-finance/mike-griffin-PEBSL000188.topic) said Thursday.

The job cuts follow voluntary buyouts offered to more than 600 executives across its domestic parks. Disney said approximately 50 people accepted the buyouts.

The layoffs and buyouts are part of deep cost cuts imposed across the Walt Disney Co. (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/economy-business-finance/media/walt-disney-co.-ORCRP017360.topic), as the Burbank, Calif., media-and-entertainment giant suffers through the worst recession in decades. Company profits fell by 32 percent during the first quarter, which ended Dec. 27.

Disney's theme parks are particularly vulnerable to downturns in consumer spending. The company has attempted to keep attendance afloat with deep discounts that are eroding profit margins.

Among those who have already departed or are scheduled to leave by the end of the month: Disney Cruise Line President Tom McAlpin, top chef and restaurant planner Dieter Hannig, and veteran spokesman Bill Warren.

The company has said it is trying to target cost cuts at its theme parks so that they do not hurt guests' experience. But one laid-off employee said the back-office cuts have been so deep that it will affect the employees who deal directly with guests.

"The support from backstage to cast members affects that guest experience," he said. "They affect the cast member, the cast member's attitude, the cast member's ability to do their job."

Disney World has been laying off workers since last month. But former employees say the cuts accelerated this week, and have been so widespread that one former employee described it as "a massacre."

The cuts could be timed to coincide with the end of the Disney Co.'s fiscal second quarter, which concludes this month. Disney will report its second-quarter earnings May 5.

Think if I call this Jason Garcia, he will print an article based on the perspective of a fan? I will drop names of those who SHOULD be getting walked out.

[Ian]

Interesting point/counterpoint on shares of WDC ...


Disney: Bears vs. Bulls

Shares of the media giant are at their lowest point in six years. Is it time to buy, or do they have farther to go?

By Scott Cendrowski, reporter
Last Updated: March 26, 2009: 2:08 PM ET

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- Walt Disney Co. is hurting as consumer spending remains tight. The world's biggest media conglomerate reported profit declines last month in its major business segments as advertising declined at its ABC network, fewer tourists visited Disney World, and 2008's "Wall-E" remained its last box office hit.

Shares now trade around 2003 levels (declining 42% in the past year vs. 40% for the S&P 500) and its price to earnings ratio of 9 is its lowest on record.

Is Disney set for a rebound, or will shares drop further as the economy remains weak? We asked two top analysts if now is the time to buy or sell.

The bear: Anthony DiClemente, Barclays Capital

"I categorize Disney's problems into three types: the first is economic concerns like theme park attendance; the second is secular, at the film studio and broadcasting division, particularly ABC; the third is creative concern that this year there are less hit movies.

"In addition, Disney's stock trades at a significant premium to its peers - depending which metric you use, it's at 30 to 50%. That's likely to revert closer to the group. My target price is $17 a share.

"Businesses exposed to the economy include the theme parks division, the broadcasting division, and the cable networks because ESPN advertising is hurt by the automotive downturn.

"For the first time in the last three years, margins were compressed in the cable business, which includes the Disney Channel and ESPN. For fiscal 2008 the cable network business' operating margins was 40.8%. (In 2008, ESPN brought in more than 40% of operating income.)

"ESPN pays for its sports content in the form of the licensing fees that it pays to the leagues, and those are long-term multi-year TV rights deals with the likes of the NFL and the NBA. Those payments are contractual, so it's difficult for ESPN to cut costs. And to the extent that those sports rights fees are increasing over time, there's a risk for ESPN's margins. This is a point that might be relevant for a lot of Disney investors: Because ESPN over-indexes to automotive advertising, we think revenues are down more than 10%.

"The creative cycle is also moving against them now. At ABC, you need hits to replace 'Lost,' 'Desperate Housewives,' and 'Grey's Anatomy.' Last holiday season, you had successes last year such as 'Wall-E' at the box office. This year my concern is that there are fewer Disney hit movies.

'I do think CEO Bob Iger and the rest of management are making the right moves to acknowledge the secular issues facing the media industry - things like piracy and Internet-video distribution. Many of the issues that Disney faces are cyclical, and our rating is 'underweight.'''

The bull: Doug Mitchelson, Deutsche Bank

"Disney is a stock that will trade in the $30s when the economy hits bottom and we start to emerge from this recession. It is a premier company, and has always traded at a premium to the S&P 500 until now. It's also trading at a record low price to earnings ratio.

"Disney is more diversified than ever. Its revenue streams are less cyclical, its brands are stronger globally, and it just so happens like the recession of 2001-02, every business is going the wrong way.

"Almost two thirds of the company's operating profits will come from their cable networks, where you have secular winds in your sails, and the business is set to outpace the economy and grow margins. ESPN's automotive advertising exposure is actually pretty similar to other cable networks. For example, Discovery said theirs is around 12%.

"It's the same story with consumer products: over next year or two they'll pick back up, especially if content cycle improves with next round of Pixar films being 'Toy Story 3' and 'Cars 2.' 'Pirates of the Caribbean 4' is coming too. All three are extremely profitable franchises on the consumer products side.

"The fact that its broadcast division, which includes ABC, has significant losses to cable doesn't really have much of a financial impact anymore given its small contribution - only about 4% of profits.

"In the end they could convert it to a cable network, merge it with another broadcast network, or cut primetime hours from 22 to 10. It might turn out to be a nice asset that is dramatically under-earning or undervalued. But it's not going to surprise people this year.

"Disney has the lowest cost-to-capital ratio among major media companies and doesn't have any holes that it needs to spend enormous sums on to fill. It has been investing aggressively for long term growth - like buildings cruise ships and spending $300 million a year on its digital media platform.

"Over the last two and a half decades, there have only been a few times Disney trades in the teens, and each time it's been a terrific time to accumulate Disney stock."

First Published: March 26, 2009: 10:27 AM ET

[lockedoutlogic]

Ian,

I just finished reading the forecast before you posted it.....funny....

I agree with the Bull...and the Bear....
Disney stock has always been overvalued...but i agree that it will return to the 30's as soon as the overall economic climate gets stable again...

I know i gobbled up some chunks at $15....a 25% increase in a month....not too shabby:mickey:

And my assessment of the unions was dead on....fun police

[DisneyNut2005]

Imagineer1981, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) here are being duplicitous.

On one forum they will argue that 3rd-party restaurants serve better food and offer better service than do most of the Disney O&O outlets; but on another forum, when there is an announcement about a Disney O&O restaurant giving way to a third-party restaurant, they refuse to call this an "improvement".

On one forum they lament the conditions of rides such as Space Mountain; but on another forum they refuse to recognize the refurbishment that is in progress on that attraction as an "improvement", nor that the money spent on said improvement is a "reinvestment".

On one forum they opine for the halcyon days of when the Walt Disney World Skyway to Tomorrowland offered terrific views of the MK; but on another forum they pooh-pooh the idea of a brand new attraction that easily will trump the views from the old Skyway. "Not an improvement", they argue... or "Doesn't cost them enough money", they claim... or "I can see that same view at my local zoo"... (???)

Basically, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) are so invested in the concept of Disney doing wrong, that even when they run counter to their own previous arguments, they refuse to admit the possibility of Disney doing something even semi-decent.

My response to all of their hot air is that I have just purchased a second membership in D23 on my lunchbreak.

:mickey:

I give you :thumbsup: :thumbsup: for that post.

[cgriff]

cgriff, Do we have to have your sour remarks putting down everything said?

I don't see how I am being "sour" when I say that it is best to wait and see how the Space Mountain refurb turns out before passing judgement on it....

Or when I suggest that we ought to give the new Stitch stage show a chance instead of dismissing it before its even debuted...

Or when I say that the view from the new DTD hot-air balloon attraction I bet is the best one on Disney property...

Or when I point out that the Wishes fireworks schedule is actually every night and has *not* been cut-back...

Others tell me that my outlook is too cheerful, and that I am looking at things through "pixie-dust-covered glasses"... That sounds to me like I am being the opposite of a sour puss.


I think that if the rumor is true about only 2 showings of Wishes, we won't be wasting our money there for a while.

So, you have a reserveration for a WDW trip currently, but are threatening to cancel it if Wishes gets cut back to 2 showings a week? Or, you're going to make no plans to go to WDW because you're waiting to see if Wishes gets cut back to 2 nights a week? I guess I don't understand what you're saying here.

[Mickey91]

So, you have a reserveration for a WDW trip currently, but are threatening to cancel it if Wishes gets cut back to 2 showings a week? Or, you're going to make no plans to go to WDW because you're waiting to see if Wishes gets cut back to 2 nights a week? I guess I don't understand what you're saying here.
Well, I believe my remark is self explanatory but if you need clarification...if I had a current reservation and Wishes was cut, I would cancel. We are thinking about going later in the year if we can and if we find out that Wishes has been cut, we won't bother. I'm not paying out more and more money for less and less service. The prices keep going up and the services keep getting cut. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. And, this isn't a threat, only a statement of fact.

If you need an explanation, with Fantasmic being cut, if Wishes were to be cut to two nights then everyone would flock to the MK on Wishes nights and DHS on Fantasmic nights and create a fiasco. No enjoyment there.

[Mickey91]

Imagineer1981, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) here are being duplicitous.

On one forum they will argue that 3rd-party restaurants serve better food and offer better service than do most of the Disney O&O outlets; but on another forum, when there is an announcement about a Disney O&O restaurant giving way to a third-party restaurant, they refuse to call this an "improvement".

On one forum they lament the conditions of rides such as Space Mountain; but on another forum they refuse to recognize the refurbishment that is in progress on that attraction as an "improvement", nor that the money spent on said improvement is a "reinvestment".

On one forum they opine for the halcyon days of when the Walt Disney World Skyway to Tomorrowland offered terrific views of the MK; but on another forum they pooh-pooh the idea of a brand new attraction that easily will trump the views from the old Skyway. "Not an improvement", they argue... or "Doesn't cost them enough money", they claim... or "I can see that same view at my local zoo"... (???)

Basically, the Disneyhaters Club(tm) are so invested in the concept of Disney doing wrong, that even when they run counter to their own previous arguments, they refuse to admit the possibility of Disney doing something even semi-decent.

My response to all of their hot air is that I have just purchased a second membership in D23 on my lunchbreak.

:mickey:
Your sour puss remarks:down:

[GrumpyFan]

Oh man, I can remember the days when you could buy Hollywood/movie/TV themed merchandise at the Studios.

You could buy frontier stuff (cowboys and indians, turquoise jewelry) in Frontierland, and cool pirate stuff in Adventureland.

I used to love shopping at WDW, but now I really just need one 15 minute stop in the resort gift shop to see everything I need to see, because that's all there is!

All the stores are exactly the same. It makes me sad.


Hmm... Seems like I read somewhere not too long ago that while the number of visitors for 2008 were slightly higher than 2007, spending had declined. Obviously, nobody at Disney HQ understands the connection! :shake:

[big blue and hairy]

Your sour puss remarks:down:
Not looking to start a fight here...or maybe I am....(Craig Ferguson reference :D), but it seerms to me the comments were more aimed at others being sourpusses...

:sulley:

[cgriff]

Not looking to start a fight here...or maybe I am....(Craig Ferguson reference :D), but it seerms to me the comments were more aimed at others being sourpusses...

:sulley:

Right-on, BB&H :number1:

Now, people can be sour if they want to be, but what spurred my original involvement in the discussion here is what I see as the practice of getting all sourpussly over things that are rumours or unproven (i.e. fictional-until-further-notice). It's unnecessary outrage and a waste of energy and emotion. Furthermore, it's potentially misleading to people who might be casually visiting this site for the purpose of planning a WDW trip.

[lockedoutlogic]

Right-on, BB&H :number1:

Now, people can be sour if they want to be, but what spurred my original involvement in the discussion here is what I see as the practice of getting all sourpussly over things that are rumours or unproven (i.e. fictional-until-further-notice). It's unnecessary outrage and a waste of energy and emotion. Furthermore, it's potentially misleading to people who might be casually visiting this site for the purpose of planning a WDW trip.

I'll give you the that point.

[GrumpyFan]

I was reading an article this morning on some of the factors that led up to GM's downfall. One of them caught my attention, and I think it should catch Disney's too. It was Sub-par quality - where they spent years focused on profits over quality, then once they realized quality had slipped they made corrections, but by the time they did, public perception had been formed that their products were bad.

Disney is currently nowhere near the level that GM has fallen too, but I do think they need to take heed of what's happened to them and other big companies in the US that are currently on the brink of failure. I think Disney has cut a lot of corners over the past several years, so much so, that for me, they've lost a lot of the magic. Not to say that it's completely gone, but it is lower than it was just 5 years ago and certainly 10 years ago. I understand that they're a business, but I also understand the principles by which they were founded and that's high quality family-oriented entertainment that makes people feel special and that the high prices are worth it. I believe that a lot of this has been stripped away. The quality aspect has slipped and is continuing to do so, and if they don't do something to bring it back soon, they will find themselves hurting in the not to distant future.

Sure, plenty of people may still come for that once in a lifetime trip, but the real fans like us here will begin to see what's happening and decide to extend the time between visits, and maybe even choose not to go anymore. For me, I've decided a trip this year isn't worth it, at least for now. I still love WDW, and I do want to go, but I just can't justify it right now. Perhaps next year. And, perhaps by then, they will have stopped the quality slide and returned some of the magic that I know and love.

[lockedoutlogic]

I was reading an article this morning on some of the factors that led up to GM's downfall. One of them caught my attention, and I think it should catch Disney's too. It was Sub-par quality - where they spent years focused on profits over quality, then once they realized quality had slipped they made corrections, but by the time they did, public perception had been formed that their products were bad.

Disney is currently nowhere near the level that GM has fallen too, but I do think they need to take heed of what's happened to them and other big companies in the US that are currently on the brink of failure. I think Disney has cut a lot of corners over the past several years, so much so, that for me, they've lost a lot of the magic. Not to say that it's completely gone, but it is lower than it was just 5 years ago and certainly 10 years ago. I understand that they're a business, but I also understand the principles by which they were founded and that's high quality family-oriented entertainment that makes people feel special and that the high prices are worth it. I believe that a lot of this has been stripped away. The quality aspect has slipped and is continuing to do so, and if they don't do something to bring it back soon, they will find themselves hurting in the not to distant future.

Sure, plenty of people may still come for that once in a lifetime trip, but the real fans like us here will begin to see what's happening and decide to extend the time between visits, and maybe even choose not to go anymore. For me, I've decided a trip this year isn't worth it, at least for now. I still love WDW, and I do want to go, but I just can't justify it right now. Perhaps next year. And, perhaps by then, they will have stopped the quality slide and returned some of the magic that I know and love.

Longterm decline in product is a huge concern for disney....

But i think it's hard to equate Disney with GM....

GM peddles working (sometimes), physical machines.....Disney peddles emotions and perceptions more than physical product. Everything that you buy with Disney...utlimately...is about the perception

GM....is going down (eventually) because the "perception" is that their product is in inferior to foreign counterparts. That is extemely difficult to shake when you are talking about expensive machines made of thousands of parts.

Unless GM can put out consistent, high performing machines that will last 8-10 years and get 200K miles (since they don't have the luxury offerings this is really their only option)....which they haven't consistently been able to do.....they will have a hard time winning the vehicle buying public back

[Ian]

Re: the erosion of the quality image of Disney's brand.

I'd be willing to bet they do repeated brand studies with their agencies and I'm sure they know exactly how people perceive their brand. And I'm sure they have targets as to where that ranking needs to be for them to be comfortable with it.

Now it's probably not where you or I would set it, but say they aim for a 90% "satisfactory" ranking (which isn't actually as good as it sounds) and they're currently scoring like 96%. They would almost definitely say, "Hey look ... we can cut out some stuff and still be meeting people's expectations."

If they're not doing that and they're just randomly deleting things or hacking around in the dark with no clue what their actions are doing to their brand image, then they have a lot more problems than even I thought they did.

And notice I said "meeting" guest expectations and not "exceeding." I think they're consistently aiming for "just good enough to keep people coming back" and that's about it.

[GothMickey]

Right-on, BB&H :number1:

Now, people can be sour if they want to be, but what spurred my original involvement in the discussion here is what I see as the practice of getting all sourpussly over things that are rumours or unproven (i.e. fictional-until-further-notice). It's unnecessary outrage and a waste of energy and emotion. Furthermore, it's potentially misleading to people who might be casually visiting this site for the purpose of planning a WDW trip.

In the thread about Wishes, mostly all of us said we wouldn't doubt this happening because precedent has been set with Fantasmic. So, even though it isn't happening now, reducing Wishes could happen in the future. Most of the sour grapes comes from decisions already made, not ones that may or may not happen. I think what you were failing to connect is, Disney management, especially in Orlando, have been extremely cheap, and THAT is what we are complaining about. Sure, Stitch's Galactic Party may be an investment in the park, but, seriously, do we need another Stitch show? Do we need two gross brick buildings in the middle of Tomorrowland? Do we really need a parking lot for managers who apparently may no longer be employed by WDW? Bad decisions are all around. THAT is what we are complaining about. If Wishes is eventually cut, you betcha we will be voicing our displeasure and complaining about that too. Call is sour grapes, but, it is the only way we can get the point across to Disney. And if someone doesn't make their trip because of it, maybe that is EXACTLY what Disney needs. It would be a huge wake up call for them, that is for sure.

[GothMickey]

And notice I said "meeting" guest expectations and not "exceeding." I think they're consistently aiming for "just good enough to keep people coming back" and that's about it.

Just to think, there used to be a time when meeting expectations was a failure and exceeding them were the norm. Makes me sad this is what it has come to.

[Ian]

GM....is going down (eventually) because the "perception" is that their product is in inferior to foreign counterparts. That is extemely difficult to shake when you are talking about expensive machines made of thousands of parts.Stop ... just stop with this. It's ridiculous. Honestly, I understand your negative image of GM. That's fine. It's America. You are entitled to an opinion, regardless of how uninformed and incorrect it may be.

But seriously, just knock it off with "they're going down eventually" stuff ... it will never happen.

I'm telling you there is no way in the world Obama will allow GM to fold. The unions are one of his staunchest supporters and, if he let GM go under, he'd be out on his keister come 2012.

Don't take it from me ... read this:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/03/25/aa.fate.of.gm.brands/index.html

And pay close attention to this paragraph:


Should GM owners be worried?
According to most automotive industry watchers and professional economists, it's highly unlikely that the government will allow General Motors to disappear.

[Ian]

Just to think, there used to be a time when meeting expectations was a failure and exceeding them were the norm. Makes me sad this is what it has come to.Oh, I know. I always think back to the time when Disney published books and held corporate seminars on customer service and how to exceed expectations every time you interact with a guest.

Not anymore, man. Not anymore.

[GrumpyFan]

:offtopic:


Stop ... just stop with this. It's ridiculous. Honestly, I understand your negative image of GM. That's fine. It's America. You are entitled to an opinion, regardless of how uninformed and incorrect it may be.

But seriously, just knock it off with "they're going down eventually" stuff ... it will never happen.

I'm telling you there is no way in the world Obama will allow GM to fold. The unions are one of his staunchest supporters and, if he let GM go under, he'd be out on his keister come 2012.



Wow, Ian, sounds like you're taking it kinda personal.

I have to agree with you though that Obama will not allow them to fold, there's just too much at stake politically and economically. However, in my own opinion, they SHOULD fail/fold, or at the least declare bankruptcy and go thru a major re-structuring. The company has been horribly managed over the past 20 years or more and now it's caught up with them. Yes, it would be a huge blow to our economy, and I would sympathize for all those who lost jobs, but companies who fail to properly manage their business shouldn't be saved without some consequences. Doing so sets bad precedence and stifles competition and growth possibilities for other businesses.

It's tantamount to the laws of nature and survival of the fittest. There has to be a balance. And, when one species (business) dies off, others rise up in its place. It's not pretty, and its sometimes a painful process, but it must happen in a healthy environment.

:soapbox:

[GrumpyFan]

Longterm decline in product is a huge concern for disney....

But i think it's hard to equate Disney with GM....

GM peddles working (sometimes), physical machines.....Disney peddles emotions and perceptions more than physical product. Everything that you buy with Disney...utlimately...is about the perception


Sure they're different in their products, but I would argue that GM's product is also about perception. People who buy their product will only buy another one if their perception is that it's a good value for their money. The same can be said of Disney. People will only return if they perceive it to be worth their money. So while Disney isn't actually selling something tangible, they are hoping to achieve the same thing that GM is, and that's a happy and satisfied customer who will return and/or recommend them to others. In short, that means providing a product (or experience) that people actually want, at a price they can afford.

[Scar]

... it will never happen.Never?... as in ever?

Sorry, just getting back at you for calling me out last year when I said oil would last forever. Actually, I think the oil supply will outlast GM.

[Ian]

Never happen in this go-round, no.

They could obviously fold up the tents later on, but in this current situation with this Administration ... no. Never happen.

And look I agree with you 110% that nature should just take its course with not only GM, but every business struggling today. That's how the free market works.

I'm just telling you how it is, not how it should be. Big difference!

As far as taking it personal goes ... not in the least. I got laid off from a GM company and certainly have no love lost for their miserable management team. I just tire of all the :beat: sometimes.

[lockedoutlogic]

Sure they're different in their products, but I would argue that GM's product is also about perception. People who buy their product will only buy another one if their perception is that it's a good value for their money. The same can be said of Disney. People will only return if they perceive it to be worth their money. So while Disney isn't actually selling something tangible, they are hoping to achieve the same thing that GM is, and that's a happy and satisfied customer who will return and/or recommend them to others. In short, that means providing a product (or experience) that people actually want, at a price they can afford.

we're basically on the same page here.....

Disney may have longterm concerns....they realistically don't have the short term ones that GM does....

but that doesn't mean they don't have to be careful of this....something they've already recklessly ignored in many situations in recent years and dealings

[lockedoutlogic]

Stop ... just stop with this. It's ridiculous. Honestly, I understand your negative image of GM. That's fine. It's America. You are entitled to an opinion, regardless of how uninformed and incorrect it may be.

But seriously, just knock it off with "they're going down eventually" stuff ... it will never happen.

I'm telling you there is no way in the world Obama will allow GM to fold. The unions are one of his staunchest supporters and, if he let GM go under, he'd be out on his keister come 2012.

Don't take it from me ... read this:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/03/25/aa.fate.of.gm.brands/index.html

And pay close attention to this paragraph:


Wow....it apparently is touchy friday....

Listen....GM will be sold, absorbed, raided, divided up, or sold off at some point....

there product is not good enough....say what you want....but theres a reason why they went from controlling 2/3 of the market to about 1/4 in a few decades (and it's not a vast left wing conspiracy)

AND....they are racked with labor costs.

What do you want? The simply dissolution of GM? or the change of everything that was GM where (i.e. non-union, outsourcing, shutdown of domestic manufacturing and production, low cost work practicies in foreign countries)?

I think we know that it will happen....maybe not to day...maybe not tomorrow....but soon...and for the rest of you....

oh, nevermind


Seriously, what's going on here? The foxes seem to be guarding the henhouse today....

Can we stop with the lashing out?

[DizneyRox]

Stop ... just stop with this. It's ridiculous. Honestly, I understand your negative image of GM. That's fine. It's America. You are entitled to an opinion, regardless of how uninformed and incorrect it may be.

But seriously, just knock it off with "they're going down eventually" stuff ... it will never happen.

I'm telling you there is no way in the world Obama will allow GM to fold. The unions are one of his staunchest supporters and, if he let GM go under, he'd be out on his keister come 2012.

Don't take it from me ... read this:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/03/25/aa.fate.of.gm.brands/index.html

And pay close attention to this paragraph:
WOW, Who saw this coming?



Obama denies bailout funds for automakers
White House says neither GM nor Chrysler submitted acceptable plans

Associated Press
updated 44 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The White House says neither GM nor Chrysler submitted acceptable plans to receive more bailout money, setting the stage for a crisis in Detroit and putting in motion what could be the final two months of two American auto giants.
Above taken from msnbc.com They do have a last minute deadline to resubmit. The head honcho is out, which is like duh!

[Ian]

That story is a bit misleading ...

While it's true that the Administration was critical of both companies' restructuring plans, money has already been committed to keep them running.

See below:


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The Obama administration gave General Motors and Chrysler LLC failing grades Monday for their turnaround efforts and promised a sweeping overhaul of the troubled companies. The government plans to give the automakers more money, but it is also holding out the threat of a "structured bankruptcy."

The federal government will provide operating funds for both automakers for several weeks, during which time the companies will have to undergo significant restructuring, administration officials said late Sunday night.

[joonyer]

Rick Wagoner has resigned as GM CEO, reportedly as a condition for continued Gov't bailout money, per the request of Obama.

[Stu29573]

Rick Wagoner has resigned as GM CEO, reportedly as a condition for continued Gov't bailout money, per the request of Obama.

Regardless of what you think of Rick Wagoner, am I the only one who finds this amount of government control a bit unsettling? Of course, working in public education for the past 14 years has taught me that as soon as you take money from the government, you have little, if any, independance. We call it "shaking hands with the devil."

[Ian]

Regardless of what you think of Rick Wagoner, am I the only one who finds this amount of government control a bit unsettling? Of course, working in public education for the past 14 years has taught me that as soon as you take money from the government, you have little, if any, independance. We call it "shaking hands with the devil."No. You aren't the only one.

[Tekneek]

Regardless of what you think of Rick Wagoner, am I the only one who finds this amount of government control a bit unsettling?

If it had been a company that had not asked for, and been given, public funding through the government, I would find it very unsettling. Since this is a different situation, I find it a bit strange that anyone would complain. Supposedly, if the government had not interfered in their business they would have already gone under.

You would have to be very naive to think that government intervention stops at giving you "bailout funds." If Rick Wagoner really believed that, then he surely deserves to be shown the door. Given the performance of the company, I find it hard to believe he has done a great job either, so that would indicate that showing him the door isn't the worst idea on the table.

[Ian]

Just FYI, it's a public misconception that the auto industry received "bailout funds."

I'm not 100% certain of the terms, but I believe they either borrowed the money on very favorable terms or they exchanged equity stakes in the companies for the funds. It was not "free money" handed to them at the expense of the taxpayers as some would have you believe.

Truth is, in any other market aside from this one, they could have gotten access to private capital and not required assistance from the Feds. But with the credit crunch, they just weren't able to find anyone willing to pony up.

Either way, it's highly inappropriate (in my opinion) for an elected official to essentially force his will on a privately held corporation.

I mean I hate to point this out, but what if the shareholders wanted to retain Wagoner? Isn't it their call?

[lockedoutlogic]

Just FYI, it's a public misconception that the auto industry received "bailout funds."

I'm not 100% certain of the terms, but I believe they either borrowed the money on very favorable terms or they exchanged equity stakes in the companies for the funds. It was not "free money" handed to them at the expense of the taxpayers as some would have you believe.

Truth is, in any other market aside from this one, they could have gotten access to private capital and not required assistance from the Feds. But with the credit crunch, they just weren't able to find anyone willing to pony up.

Either way, it's highly inappropriate (in my opinion) for an elected official to essentially force his will on a privately held corporation.

I mean I hate to point this out, but what if the shareholders wanted to retain Wagoner? Isn't it their call?

What is your understanding of the situation?

Here's mine:

Two of the BIG 3 (what an ironic term these days) recieve around 17.5 billion in government "loans" about 3 months ago to pay the bills....at the time admitting that they would be back for more because they would again not be able to remain afloat in 3-9 months....

lo and behold....here they are. Asking for more "loans" to again....pay the bills

So here's my question....

if they are borrowing money to pay operational costs.....auto sales are in severe decline.....and labor and healthcare costs continue to rise relative to revenue.....

how are they going to pay back said "loans"...without asking for more?

How do they get solvent?

Because unless i'm mistaken....the only way to is to basically destroy how the cars are made from the ground up....slash everything....change the operation and labor structure....

My only other question is....if that is the "right" course...then are they still, in fact, the American car makers?

I'm not being sarcastic....i just don't think you prognosis for their saving or recovery will leave anything that looks like GM, Chrysler...and possibly Ford...in the end.

So what's to save?

(I do agree however that they will not be allowed to fail by the government in the short term.....they are still politically useful, they employ too many, and the shockwaves would be fairly damaging to an already listing ship)

...but i don't think it's about "credit" What credit? They have proven that they have nothing to pay it back with other than 2 dollar stock.

[Tekneek]

Just FYI, it's a public misconception that the auto industry received "bailout funds."

There is a reason I had it in quotes.


I'm not 100% certain of the terms, but I believe they either borrowed the money on very favorable terms or they exchanged equity stakes in the companies for the funds. It was not "free money" handed to them at the expense of the taxpayers as some would have you believe.

I never said it was free money, but they obviously came begging for government intervention in their enterprise. Kinda hard to complain about the consequences later, isn't it?


Truth is, in any other market aside from this one, they could have gotten access to private capital and not required assistance from the Feds. But with the credit crunch, they just weren't able to find anyone willing to pony up.

Capitalism can be hard. Sometimes you fail. They made an end-run around the marketplace and got government intervention on their behalf. Sometimes you get the bad with the good.


Either way, it's highly inappropriate (in my opinion) for an elected official to essentially force his will on a privately held corporation.

Highly inappropriate to go to Washington and beg for money, too. Guess we've got a bunch of people behaving badly.


I mean I hate to point this out, but what if the shareholders wanted to retain Wagoner? Isn't it their call?

I would wonder why they would want to retain someone who invited government intervention in their enterprise without consulting them first (as I recall, this was not subject to a shareholder vote). When you invite the government into your business, things don't go that well. They should have sold their shares, taken their losses, and moved on once that happened. They decided to accept that risk when they stayed on.

[Tinkermom]

Wow! I came here looking for info on Wishes possibly changing and a discussion about Disney management since this is what the first post says this thread is about. I finally had to do a search to find that info.

I have to say that I am surprised that this thread is still open since the last several pages has nothing to do with the title. If you wish the arguing er...discussion to continue maybe at least the title should change and it be moved to the Water Cooler.

[GothMickey]

Wow! I came here looking for info on Wishes possibly changing and a discussion about Disney management since this is what the first post says this thread is about. I finally had to do a search to find that info.

I have to say that I am surprised that this thread is still open since the last several pages has nothing to do with the title. If you wish the arguing er...discussion to continue maybe at least the title should change and it be moved to the Water Cooler.

The title of this thread is Improvements vs. Cutbacks: Commetary and Discussion of Current Disney Management. It was opened by a moderator. And this thread has followed that title exact. Has nothing to do with Wishes. Even though the first few posts deal with a possible Wishes cutback, we are completely on topic. :)

[Ian]

She does have a point about the GM discussion, though. Way :offtopic: and I'm just as guilty as everyone else.

Let's leave that for another day.

btw, Tekneek, all good points. Didn't want to ignore what you said. I'm opposed to the governmental bailout of corporations, period.

As far as I'm concerned, any governmental meddling in the free markets is only a recipe for disaster. If our politicians had any business accumen, they'd be in the business world not politics.

[Nascfan]

The title of this thread is Improvements vs. Cutbacks: Commetary and Discussion of Current Disney Management. It was opened by a moderator. And this thread has followed that title exact. Has nothing to do with Wishes. Even though the first few posts deal with a possible Wishes cutback, we are completely on topic. :)

Nope, sorry Goth, but the posts about GM and its former CEO have absolutely nothing to do with Disney anything. Even though Lisa used Wishes as an example, she's 100% correct. This has gotten way off topic in the last page.

[GothMickey]

Nope, sorry Goth, but the posts about GM and its former CEO have absolutely nothing to do with Disney anything. Even though Lisa used Wishes as an example, she's 100% correct. This has gotten way off topic in the last page.

Eh, you are right. The GM convo does go off topic. Ok, I take it back, she has a point. :)

[lockedoutlogic]

Back to the original:

they are cutting back on all viable fronts.....
they are not reinvesting....only small necessary rehabs and asthetics (barely)...
The third party development does not count as Disney "imagineering" anything new...in the traditonal sense....

so here we are....:mickey:

(Now i just sit and wait for the powerbrokers to come get me as being too "negative" on this one):thedolls:

[BMan62]

Back to the original:

they are cutting back on all viable fronts.....
they are not reinvesting....only small necessary rehabs and asthetics (barely)...
The third party development does not count as Disney "imagineering" anything new...in the traditonal sense....

so here we are....:mickey:

(Now i just sit and wait for the powerbrokers to come get me as being too "negative" on this one):thedolls:

Agreed on all points. Parks are getting just enough done to allow them to say they are spending money on that front.

Have to add one thing -- they ARE spending money -- ON DVC. BLT & THV are both vacuuming up some pretty serious cash. AKV is still under construction, so more cash goes there as well.

Non-timeshare properties are showing lack-of-love lately, even more so that the parks. IMHO

[Ian]

I also wonder how much the redo of DCA is factoring in to things. That's a billion-plus dollar project in and of itself.

[BMan62]

I sit corrected. My little mind can't wrap itself around anything outside of WDW in the Disney budget.

So, after the multi-billion $$$$ revamp of DCA, will some of the love come back to WDW?

[GrumpyFan]

So, after the multi-billion $$$$ revamp of DCA, will some of the love come back to WDW?

Perhaps, but if it takes that long (5 years?) WDW could be seriously hurting.
I would suggest that it's going to take 2-3 quarters of declining guests and profits at WDW before they get something going. And, with Universal and Busch (for now), opening brand new high thrill rides this summer/fall, it might just make enough impact that WDW management will pay attention.

[disneygeek18]

Wasn't the money for the DCA expansion already set aside? Also, isn't there separate funding for DL and WDW? I mean it obviously makes things cheaper when they build for both of them, but I was under the impression they each pay half of the cost?

[Disney_Guy]

As far as I'm concerned, any governmental meddling in the free markets is only a recipe for disaster. If our politicians had any business accumen, they'd be in the business world not politics.

Ian, as someone who works in our government I think you should stop and think before you open your loud mouth about politicians.

We are trying to help out those who got laid off and may be laid off. Just because you run a disney website all day doesn't mean others are hurting for jobs. We need to be involved in everything including free markets.

Disney_Guy

[John]

Ladies and Gents - this has gotten to the point where it's not very INTERCOT like. Maybe other boards go on and on like this but it's not what we're all about.

Pack your bags - thread is closed.

[Ed]

MODERATOR'S WARNING

This thread has gotten totally out of hand, and is contrary to Intercot's policy of not allowing political discussions, flaming, etc.

If the parties affected wish to continue this discussion, please do it elsewhere.

This thread is now CLOSED.