Bus Troubles

[Gator]

I just got back from a 10 day trip to WDW, and I have a big beef with the transport system. I've never had any real issues before, but all stems to the massive increase in motorized scooters. Now before the moderators close this topic, hear me out.

In June 2002, I saw no scooter get on a bus of mine. Same for Feb 2004. In Dec 2006 I saw 5 or 6 scooters. But in 2008, I saw a massive increase. Out of 26 bus trips I took, 21 of them I had to wait for a scooter to get on and 10 of them had multiple scooters.

I understand there are people who truly need wheeled transport to get around. But I seriously doubt all of these folks I saw on a the bus ever used a scooter outside WDW. And my real beef is with the fact that they and their family get to board first, even if they show up after 30 people have lined up before them. Fooooorr instance, I had the misfortune of getting on a bus with one man 4 different times. This guy had a hard time parking each time (4-6 minutes). His scooter would take away 3 seats from the bus. Then he would take a seat and his family of 6 (who were always with him) would all get to find a seat before everybody else. So becase of his scooter, 10 seats were gone. That meant my wife and 3yo DD and 20 month-old DS would have to stand along with me, carrying a double stroller.

Unless Disney fixes this problem right now, I won't be back. The bus system was a convenience worth paying a few extra dollars to stay at a Disney resort. Next time, I'll save money by going to a non_Disney hotel, rent a car, and not have to deal with the scooter problem. That way my wife and kids can sit and we don't have to wait for all those folks who really aren't handicap.

Again, I know there are people who truly need scooters. But they should really have to wait in line like the rest of us. We paid the same amount, we should get the same magical service.

[disneydeb]

I have come to the conclusion that the population going to Disney is aging. I know I am aging!:mickey: I have been going since 1972 and beginning to needa scooter depending on how I feel from day to day. As of now, when I need a scooter, I rent one in the park negating my need for one on the bus. I see the time coming when I will need a scooter full time and I hope people are kind.
Perhaps Disney could offer the scooter rider and its passenger one companion seat and the other members of the party be on the bus but possibly stand determined by their order in line.
We all must be kind as we face this topic.
I stood holding children when I was in my twenties and thirties too.:mickey:

[ThanxForNoticin]

Currently, thankfully I have no need for a scooter, wheel chair, or strollers. However, Disney has always been so far ahead of the curve with how they treat guests who are less mobile, that I think guests like that feel more comfortable going to Disney and spending time with their families.

Sorry, but I'm not going to get excited about someone costing me 5 minutes before the bus can move. Even if I need to wait for another entire bus, I guess I'm just going to be glad I'm not the one (at this point) needing the extra time and attention. And if and when I do need the extra time, I hope the cast members give me the same respect.

[TTA Metroliner]

I also just got back from a trip last Saturday. I too agree with too many scooters. My question is why not have buses designated for scooters? It could have fewer seats (thus reducing the need for taking away seats to park the scooter) and allow the people who have been standing in line for three to four cycles waiting on a bus the opportunity to get on the bus BEFORE the person who pulled up in the scooter MINUTES before the bus showed up the right to a seat!!! If this can't be done, make the queue big enough to accomiadte the scooters so they wait in line just like everyone else!!

[btharvey]

I hear both sides. I, too, was aggravated by two scooter drivers riding on to the bus and parking themselves ... and taking inordinate amounts of time ... and their nine family members (each) getting preference onboard.

Perhaps the one member to assist would work. I know that while the bus drivers could probably drive the people on the bus and park them much faster, they won't -- liability.

And if you start to refuse entry to more than one or to restrict rides to special scooter buses, what happens then? How many scooter buses do you run? Or do they run on an "on call" schedule? Or only every 2nd run (every 40 minutes, or once per hour). Then they load only scooters and one family member, and everyone else rides the regular buses?

I think that Disney can make a decision here, since the current method appears to be clogging things. Their decision may be to leave it as it is, to restrict the number of scooters per trip (unlikely), to come up with a scooter-only bus (unlikely), or to come up with a call-up bus service, using smaller busses that can, perhaps, carry up to 4 scooters and four family members (total) with special drive-on from the rear (ideally) and jump seats or standing only for the rest (unlikely, but I'd like to see it).

It means that the people on scooters would need to call ahead, and the scooter buses would need to be responsive. They could also be responsive by being there at the next 1/2 hour after the travel time to get there (for example ... call at 8:25, arrive at 9:00). There are ways, if they want to be creative.

And, their bus service would improve for the rest, meaning they won't get grumbling passengers, grumbling drivers, maybe can use fewer regular buses because they're driving on time.

But then again ... I haven't really given this much thought. ;)

[Jasper]

If this can't be done, make the queue big enough to accomiadte the scooters so they wait in line just like everyone else!!

Having been on both sides of this issue, I think that you have hit the most important issue directly on the head. Whether it is a bus or an attraction I don't think that most of us have a problem with waiting a few minutes for someone on a scooter to load or unload. However, the thinking generally goes something like this; "That person is already sitting down while I have been standing for X number of minutes to board this bus/attraction, why can't they continue to sit on their scooter and wait their turn?"

Unfortunately, there is no good answer to this issue. Disney doesn't want to give up valuable real estate to wait lines but that is really the only good way to address this problem. And even then, what about the individual riding the scooter who can't sit in the sun for long periods of time?

See what I mean? There are so many facets to this issue that I am not sure there is currently a good answer to it. And as the "stigma" of being seen on a scooter continues to decline and the population continues to age we are only going to see more of this.

[deedeenmickey]

When we went to WDW there were so many scooters and at different times when you see the group different people would be on the scooter. There was another the person was riding when they got on the bus and the person walked around fine just seemed to be a bit overweight (don't take that the wrong way I'm a big girl too) I just didn't see any signs the many times I saw her that anything was wrong. She walked fine around the hotel. I just feel it is being terribly abused. We drove to the parks a few days to avoid this problem.

[lindique]

I think part of the problem is with new and inexperienced bus drivers. Some of the drivers took inordinate amounts of time to strap down the scooters, while others were able to do it quite quickly. Perhaps some bus driver training would help the problem? If it was done faster, I don't think so many people would get annoyed.

[JPL]

I understand both sides of this story as I have good friends who need a scooter for mobility but at Disney the system is being abused by some and before scooters it was wheelchair access that was being abused by some as well. I really feel bad for those who truly need a scooter for mobility since they get lumped in with the abusers of the system. The real issue here lies with Disney and their inability to properly manage the situation. The drivers need to be properlytrained and some sort of system definately needs to be put in place to accomadate guests with and without scooters. Some scooter rules that are given to all guests prior to arrival and a speed limit would be nice.
We were waiting at the Studios trying to get to Epcot and the bus line was huge it almost went back to the park entrance with no bus in sight. About 2 minutes before a bus finally showed up and I am not exagerating when say this 8 scooters come around the line to the front. The bus driver spends about 25 minutes trying to load 2 of them onto 1 bus while all the other Epcot buses were forced to circle until the bus was loaded. Each group with a scooter consisted of at least 4-6 members plus the scooter rider. The same process was repeated but thankfully this driver was a little bit faster it only took him about 15 minutes to load the next bus with 1 scooter and a wheelchair. This was after waiting almost 30 minutes for the first bus to show up in the first place. It took about an hour and 45 minutes to get from the Studios to Epcot which is insane. Then the best part of the experience was the guy riding the scooter pushing his way off the bus and yelling to the driver he wants his scooter now he's late for an ADR and cursing up a storm as to why he wasn't let off closer to the gate.

I am in no way against people using them and understand that some people need them but Disney needs a coexistance plan because quite honestly this was the most scooters I have ever seen in the parks between Dec 11th-14th. If the numbers are growing at this rate the problem is only going to increase.

But overall without taking the scooters into account this was the worst bus service I have ever encountered as a whole during a trip to WDW. I would say my average wait for a bus was up 15-20 minutes. I think this laso can add to the frustration when people are getting shut out after waiting when a scooter pulls up right before the bus.

[beksy]

Posts like this are what make me nervous about my upcoming trip. I'm 26 years old and look healthy but overweight. However I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, Charcot-Marie-Tooth Disease (which affects my feet, legs, etc.) and other health problems related to these. Due to these I'm going to be using a scooter and the bus system for the first time. I've gotten too bad to be able to walk in the parks and enjoy my trip. (I tried the last trip and was in bed for a month plus suffered too much to fully enjoy myself) I can walk and stand for short periods and look normal unless you notice the scars on my legs from surguries. I'm one of those that look like I'm just using the scooter to try to get special advantages or because I'm overweight or something since I'm so young and my problems aren't real obvious. Unfortunately I can't afford a monorail resort this trip to cut down on bus use and am not comfortable driving (I'm the only one with a license). So it came down to going and enduring the occassional nasty looks and comments or skipping the trip which I couldn't make myself do. I understand the other side. We've seen people playing with the scooters, etc. and I feel guilty skipping lines. If scooters weren't loaded first, I'd happily send my dbf to stand in line until it was our turn and then get on. I try to not take advantage of the system and am just going to apologize in advance because I'm not a great driver and will take extra time. Please don't give me mean looks though...maybe I'll wear something Intercot everyday so I'm recognizable if I hold you up! :blush:

[ThanxForNoticin]

Posts like this are what make me nervous about my upcoming trip.

Why would you even think about apologizing for your situation? Isn't it great that you have the option to go and enjoy yourself at the most magical place on earth? There will always be things around that people don't care for, and we manage just fine. I'm sure I have my own little things that get me upset, too. But someone needing some extra help with a scooter so they enjoy themselves at Disney? It's a huge place and many people can't do it all. Please don't feel bad about that.

[Daisy712]

I agree, this has become a problem. The lines and busses are too congested. When we were at WDW in April 2008, I remember making the comment that there should be designated handicapped busses. Disney should have CMs waiting at the bus stops and radio to the dispatch when a handicap bus is needed. The busses could go to multiple resorts. We have gone to Disney with and without scooters. My Aunt, who used a scooter, made the comment that she would prefer to have a specialized bus just for scooters instead of holding a whole line up. She said she would hate to have to line up her scooter, put it in reverse to back up on the lift with an angry crowd watching. It made her too nervous. I teach school and we have handicap busses to accomodate the special needs children. It is more comfortable for everyone.

[JPL]

Why would you even think about apologizing for your situation?

Exactly I think this is the point I was trying to make you need a scooter so you have no reason to apologize or feel guilty for using one. What this is coming down to is a Disney management issue they need to address not something you should worry about before your trip.

[MickeyMomof2]

I think a lot of it can come down to attitudes. When we were last there, we had been waiting quite a while for a bus (along with others). After most of us got on, a lady in a scooter arrived and demanded that she be allowed to board. She made the driver kick off the people in the seats that folded up. While I realize that those seats are designated for special use, she hadn't waited at all, and she was demanding that those who had waited get off the bus and wait some more. I don't doubt that she needed the scooter, but her feelings that she should come first and that she had the right to board before anyone else did certainly did nothing to help the cause of those who are truly in need of assistance!

I feel like our society in general is losing itself in feelings of entitlement. We would ALL be better off (myself included) if we weren't always worried about OUR rights!

[PetefromRI]

How about a License from your state that says your HC before being issued a scooter.I think that whatever you need for a HC placard for your car should be mandatory in order to get a scooter,or maybe a doctors note even though that could be forged.I really hate to judge though because as beksy said,sometimes you can't see someones handicap right away and I'm just grateful to be healthy so you won't get a sneer out of me,just maybe a helping hand.

[PirateLover]

Honestly, I think that the most fair option is for the rest of the party or at least one party representative to get in the line normally, and the person on the scooter can load with them when they reach the front. I have nothing against people in scooters, but I'd be lying if I said that it isn't slightly annoying when I've been waiting 20 mins for the bus to get there, and two big scooter groups roll in at the last minute and I end up missing getting on that bus by a handful of people (this has happened at least once on my past three trips).

[ThanxForNoticin]

I feel like our society in general is losing itself in feelings of entitlement. We would ALL be better off (myself included) if we weren't always worried about OUR rights!

Well said. Unfortunately, this is very true today.

[epceddie]

I have NEVER used the bus system at WDW.

We always rent a car and having one has always been worth its weight in gold.

There are already too many lines to wait in everywhere you go at the parks. Waiting for a bus at the end of a long day is just not worth it.

I agree with the posters above who get ticked off when scooter riders and their families roll up and get first crack at bus seats. I think they should have to wait in line just like everybody else.

[CleveRocks]

Everyone is missing one very important point. A scooter can't be loaded onto a partially-filled bus. The scooter rider needs room to manuever the thing onto the bus, and then the driver needs room to properly tie it down to secure it so that it doesn't become a projectile as soon as the bus moves.

You think you don't like WAITING while one is loaded? Try being told you have to GIVE UP your seat because you happened to be seated in the area where the scooter must be tied down!!!

As for someone calling a scooter rider selfish for getting out of the scooter and sitting in a regular bus seat? It is pretty dangerous to have someone seated on the scooter while the bus is moving ... it would be very stupid for that person to stay seated on the scooter, unless they really don't care about their own safety.

[CleveRocks]

Someone who has a scooter on a WDW bus didn't just rent it for the day at a park, since the park-rented scooters can't exit the parks. The people on the buses either own the thing, or rent it from an Orlando-area company for the length of their stay. That's a pretty hefty commitment for someone who doesn't really need one.

Scooters aren't for people who are paralyzed ... a scooter rider has to be able to walk just to get on and off the darn thing.

Imagine if you just had knee surgery a month ago and it didn't go so well. Rather than disappointing the kids by cancelling the trip, or disappointing the kids and yourself by staying in the hotel or sitting on a bench near the park entrance because you can't walk more than about a quarter-mile without intense pain that will last the rest of the day, you rent a scooter.

Or imagine if you had a back problem from that fall you took at work last year ... you know, you do all right, but if you walk more than a ile or so or are on your feet for more than an hour or so you get intense pain and muscle spasms and you can't walk anymore. You'd rent a scooter rather than cancel the trip, right?

And then you'd have a bunch of self-righteous jerks looking at you like you're cheating the system or falsely taking advantage of the system. Shame on all of you.

And no, I don't use a scooter and I don't know anyone who does ... I just brought my brain and my heart with me to the forum tonight.

[WDWdriver]

Honestly, I think that the most fair option is for the rest of the party or at least one party representative to get in the line normally, and the person on the scooter can load with them when they reach the front.
As a former Disney bus driver (and without taking any sides here), I can offer an explanation why the scooters (we call them ECVs) and wheelchairs are loaded first. It can't be done while other passengers are boarding because:
A - the designated tiedown spots are near the rear doors, and movement of other passengers from the front of the bus to the back would block the aisle and create confusion while we were trying to load the wheelchair or ECV.

B - The fold down seats in the tie down area must be raised in order to position the wheelchair or ECV. Those seats may already be occupied if other passengers boarded first. This forces the driver to ask those already seated to move, creating a potential guest irritant or conflict.

As for the time it takes to secure a wheelchair or ECV in the bus, the driver must take care to insure that all tiedown straps are properly secured. The last thing a driver wants is an unrestrained scooter on his bus while rounding a curve. It has happened.

[btharvey]

I'll go back to my statement that Disney will choose a path. Whether it be limits, wholesale stated endorsements, driver training (which some of them need anyway), or special services which provide special access to those who need and leave the regulars to the regulars, or say that scooters aren't allowed and only wheelchairs are permitted -- scooters may be rented at a discounted price at the parks -- they'll come up with something. It's only now bubbling. It won't go away.

Ok, I've muttered much too much, much too late on this here east coast ....

[EditReject]

You think you don't like WAITING while one is loaded? Try being told you have to GIVE UP your seat because you happened to be seated in the area where the scooter must be tied down!!!


There are signs posted above these seats that warn you that you will have to give up your seat if someone comes along in a scooter or a wheelchair. Don't sit there in the first place.

I myself use a wheelchair full-time due to a disability since birth and this is a topic that has me torn as I can see both sides of the argument. Other than my love of all things Disney, a main reason I enjoy Disney World is how they treat the disabled population. I know I can go there and not have to worry about not being able to enjoy and do and go wherever and on whatever I want. As a result (which everbody knows) this has led people to severely abuse this goodwill that Disney affords its disabled guests.

After a lengthy absence from the World, I have been fortunate to have gone there 3 times in the last year and I cannot believe the number of scooters that have now seem to overun the place. Every bus I was on seemed to have one scooter and I agree with the previous posts in that if you have an inexperienced scooter driver coupled with a clueless bus driver, getting it loaded and tied down is a chore. I am able to zip right on and my chair is a snap to tie down so it pains me at times to have to wait for a scooter to load as well.

At times I do feel a bit of guilt as I get to load the bus first (especially when the lines are long at the end of the day) but it usually quickly passes as I know once I leave I am back in the "real world" where everything is still not accessible and some people do not even acknowledge you as a person.

I know I got a bit off-topic but my thinking is this...try not to generalize. Yes, some people are abusing this privilege but for many people, the scooters are allowing them the opportunity to enjoy the resort whereas at one time they could not.

[offwego]

One other thing to keep in mind is that even those who use a scooter at home may (due to their flights) not have their scooter with them.
My mother (who has used a scooter full time at her work for instance) has rented them at home here in Canada and driven down with them when required for WDW (her work one was purchased for her by her employers and as such she didn't feel she could take it with her) each time she's rented one it's been a different model with different controls turn radius etc.
One other factor is that many who do use them don't use them on public transit in their "real" life. The two different designs of the buses are also a factor, the ramp ones are far easier to navigate the lift ones present the challenge of backing in (essentially blind for many who's mobility limitations include craining around their necks and backs) and the weird feeling of driving forward onto empty space when leaving.

Having gone with family and friends who are required to use scooters (and dealt with at least 4 buses last time that were unable to load a scooter due to mechanical issues) I sympathise with the issues of wait times but once again it's just not possible (from a mechancial point of view with the current bus designs) to load scooter and the regular queue at the same time. Until then we will all just have to have a little more patience (and personally I'm always grateful that I can stand waiting and that my son and husband are as well) to worry about the issue aside from the concern it causes my family and friends with the need for these essential assistance.

[illini]

While I have been frustrated in the past after waiting an hour and having a person in a scooter show up at the last second and load the 20+ "family members" onto the bus while I continued to hold TWO sleeping children, in general I don't get upset about this.
Instead, I'll be grateful that I *can* stand and walk around the parks. I don't know who really does or does not need a scooter and it's not my place to make that determination. I'm happier if I just assume everyone on one needs one. People with handicaps certainly deserve courtesy and respect. While I may have to wait a bit longer for a bus, that pales in comparison to what people with mobility issues face on a daily basis.
I do understand why people are upset, but having special busses isn't going to fix the problem. It will just make life even more complicated and difficult for people requiring extra assistance.

[Imagineer1981]

Sounds like Wall-E where we all are in floating scooters...he he

this is why I rent a car everytime

[ChipDale2708]

When we went to WDW there were so many scooters and at different times when you see the group different people would be on the scooter. There was another the person was riding when they got on the bus and the person walked around fine just seemed to be a bit overweight (don't take that the wrong way I'm a big girl too) I just didn't see any signs the many times I saw her that anything was wrong. She walked fine around the hotel. I just feel it is being terribly abused. We drove to the parks a few days to avoid this problem.


I just want to give another side to this scenario - well three actually. Sometimes the person in the chair needs to get up and move around and can't sit for long periods of time. So someone in the party has to drive it to their next destination. As for walking 'fine' around the hotel, my Mom walks fine for short distances, but to walk around a Disney park is impossible for her. She can enjoy our family vacations thanks to the ECV's.

And my final twist on others riding the scooter - two trips ago we had a scooter for my Mom. On our first night, I twisted my foot and was in extreme pain for the rest of the trip. Rather than ruin the weekend, I taped the foot up and we traded off using the scooter instead of renting a second one. We also only rented in the parks so we didn't have one on the buses.

[MickeysEars]

i rememebr going to DL right afet the Indiana Jones ride opened. My uncle was in a wheel chair and THAT line was designed so that wheel chairs would go through almost the entire line only to be removed from the line right before boarding (it is like the line for Dino at AK, same load system) So I pose the question...whay cant they wait in line with everyone else for the busses. The front seats and elevated seats can be leaded first to leave the scooter seats open. I dont begrudge the use of the scooters or the need for them, I just get irked that I will wait a couple of cycles for a bus (because we all know the number of busses on the roads have been decreased) to have to then watch a scooter pull up and I miss THAT bus too.

[bkfree]

We just returned from our trip Dec 3-10. We commented several times over the huge number of scooters everywhere.
Since my FIL and my mother would also be scooter users at WDW, we are glad to see a place where it is easy to use them.

My only beef was the idea that they had the right of way to the exclusion and danger of others. I heard a Mom tell her daughter that was in a motorized wheelchair to just run over anyone that go in her way and about a minute later she ran into the side of another child in a wheelchair.

Then there was a scooter driver at Epcot that basically announced that she would run down anyone that got in her path.

It is this attitude and reckless "driving" of the scooters that I do have a beef with....

We had no problems at all with the buses (AKL) and only twice did we have scooter riders on the bus and each of them waited in line with their party and then loaded when it was their turn.
But I do not believe we ever had a bus that was filled and had to leave others waiting behind for the next bus. We had great bus service the whole trip.
In fact the only real waits we had was a couple of times for the Monorail. 10-15 minute wait at MK and at TTA

[Gator]

As for someone calling a scooter rider selfish for getting out of the scooter and sitting in a regular bus seat? It is pretty dangerous to have someone seated on the scooter while the bus is moving ... it would be very stupid for that person to stay seated on the scooter, unless they really don't care about their own safety.

First of all, it is safer for a rider to stay on the scooter. It has arms and a lapbelt and is far more secure than a slick, fiberglass seat. I saw 2 or 3 scooter drivers and wheelchair riders stay in their seat.

Second, if scooter riders who are not completely invalid (they can still walk small distances) get seated first, why not children who need strollers? They can't walk all day so they need a stroller. But I guarantee they don't get to board before everyone else. They don't have the government giving them special rights.

[CleveRocks]

First of all, it is safer for a rider to stay on the scooter. It has arms and a lapbelt and is far more secure than a slick, fiberglass seat. I saw 2 or 3 scooter drivers and wheelchair riders stay in their seat.On what do you base that conclusion? Because disability (i.e., rehabilitation) experts and transportation providers agree that NOT riding in a moving vehicle on an ECV is the safer way to go, unless there is a danger to the person in dismounting if they need specific help that is unavailable at that time.


Second, if scooter riders who are not completely invalid (they can still walk small distances) get seated first, why not children who need strollers? They can't walk all day so they need a stroller. But I guarantee they don't get to board before everyone else. They don't have the government giving them special rights.

You seem to be taking a political and perhaps emotional viewpoint on this. Please try to look at it purely from a practical perspective ... not who is getting what or who deserves what or anything like that, just look at it purely as a matter of common-sense function. A stroller doesn't need to take up a specific defined space on the bus; it can be folded and can lie on the floor or perhaps stand up (while folded) and be held by a parent with one hand. A scooter can't be put on the floor or stood up next to someone. The scooter would be a horrible obstacle, whereas the stroller doesn't have to be.

Saying that disabled adults and small children should be treated identically because they both share the characteristic of "doesn't walk well" does not mean they have the same needs when it comes to transportation. Again, look at it the way I just explained and you'll at least understand where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree.:mickey:

[PirateLover]

Everyone is missing one very important point. A scooter can't be loaded onto a partially-filled bus. .


As a former Disney bus driver (and without taking any sides here), I can offer an explanation why the scooters (we call them ECVs) and wheelchairs are loaded first. It can't be done while other passengers are boarding because:
A - the designated tiedown spots are near the rear doors, and movement of other passengers from the front of the bus to the back would block the aisle and create confusion while we were trying to load the wheelchair or ECV.

B - The fold down seats in the tie down area must be raised in order to position the wheelchair or ECV. Those seats may already be occupied if other passengers boarded first.
Thanks. I do understand why they need to be loaded on the bus before everyone else, but I just wish there was something that could prevent groups from just strolling up at last minute and cutting in front of a long line. My idea, which I didn't explain fully, would be that once the group representative will be able to board the next bus, the family could get on. I guess this enters into the realm of subjectivity and could cause arguments though. I guess there really isn't a better way to work it out with the current system.

And to illini, I agree that I am thankful to be able to stand in line. My issue is more with the large entourage that can sometimes accompany scooters. I have no issue with scooter boarding first, but when the 5 or 6 other family members get to board too, that's what I find a tad annoying.

[diz_girl]

I have come to the conclusion that the population going to Disney is aging. I know I am aging!

I was at WDW the first week of December, and what I noticed more than the amount of scooters was that most of those riding scooters were not old. There were A LOT of younger people on them. There was a surprising proliferation of scooters for the middle-aged at WDW.

Whenever I encountered someone in a scooter, I just stopped, smiled at them and let them go before me. Usually I was met with a grateful smile, as many people don't "see" them and walk in front of them even though they have the right of way. As a pp mentioned, you don't know why any one person is in a scooter.

My father has arthritic hips and spine, and on our final day in the parks, as we were walking up to the EPCOT entrance, he said that he "just can't do it anymore." Meaning that he just couldn't do another day of walking in the parks. He's 68 and actually plays doubles tennis twice a week, but a week walking around WDW was too much for him. So he rented a scooter around the parks and had a great time.

[CleveRocks]

Thanks. I do understand why they need to be loaded on the bus before everyone else, but I just wish there was something that could prevent groups from just strolling up at last minute and cutting in front of a long line. My idea, which I didn't explain fully, would be that once the group representative will be able to board the next bus, the family could get on. I guess this enters into the realm of subjectivity and could cause arguments though. I guess there really isn't a better way to work it out with the current system.

And to illini, I agree that I am thankful to be able to stand in line. My issue is more with the large entourage that can sometimes accompany scooters. I have no issue with scooter boarding first, but when the 5 or 6 other family members get to board too, that's what I find a tad annoying.

I understand exactly where you're coming from. [What's coming next ISN'T an argument, it's an explanation/idea] The problem would be: if the entourage waits in line until they would "naturally" be able to board the bus, then it's quite likely the scooter wouldn't be able to be loaded at that time because of the number of people already on that partially-filled bus. The only alternative would be to then have the entourage step aside and let the bus fill, and then be first in line for the NEXT bus to come. That way, the scooter user could get on an empty bus that his/her friends/family and he/she waited for.

So we as a society, or Disney as a company, are left with a choice: let someone with a disability board before everyone else, or make someone with a disability wait for everyone else to go first.

If there is no other way, and we are forced to choose one or the other, how many of us would actually say "You are disabled, you gotta wait 'til last" versus "Go ahead, it's all right" ???

[crazypoohbear]

I have no problem waiting for the scooters to load with thier families intact.
I thank God that I am able to walk onto the bus and I would not want to tell the families they must split up. Who are we to dictate thier lives to them. We have no idea what goes on in a disabled family or who does what task for the person.
As for the large number of scooters, maybe the disabled realized that they could go to disney and have a nice time and have their needs met without incident.
I was there in September with a scooter person and we did get on the bus and sit with Rose, we were all going together, we were on vaction together and we were going to stay with her.
As for the stroller issue, those aren't locked down, there are parents who don't watch the kid as it is I certainly don' twant runaway strollers with sleeping kids ramming into me on the bus.
I am happy that Disney makes the disabled feel important and special.
I can wait

[Goes4FastPass]

I try to be smart and fair and it's true, I've never been greatly delayed getting on a WDW bus while it accomodated a person with using an ECV.

This is a no win situation for the Disney Company. I assume they want to be fair and just... and they must comply with the ADA.

I'm thankful to be able to walk all day at a WDW park.

I'm sure there are people who misuse allowances made for people with disabilities. What I can't know is whether that's 1 person or a few or many, let alone who fits in which category.

I guess we can only trust Karma to work things out.

[Auroring Good Time]

I believe that some of this issue comes from the cost of renting the scooters in the park. Some people do not need a scooter full time however, the walk around the park is too much for them. It is much cheaper to rent a scooter from an outside company for a week than it is to rent them inside the park every day. If the cost of a scooter was cheaper in the park, this would alleviate some of the bus issues.

[Ian]

Here's the way I look at it ... Are some people probably abusing the scooters? Yes. I'm sure. Some people cut in line or steal your parade spot or smoke where they're not supposed to. These people are called "idiots" and they're everywhere. The scooter isn't a cause, it's a symptom.

I choose to believe that 95% of the people who are using scooters need them.

[joelkfla]

Some points that come up as I read thru the thread:

Scooters are loaded first for several reasons, primarily:

Safety -- it's better not to have the scooter drivers banging into people and running over toes. (We don't mind when they bang into the wall of the bus. :mickey:)
Efficiency -- it's faster and easier to load and strap down a scooter when the area around the back door and tie-downs is clear of other guests.)
Courtesy -- we prefer not to have to ask guests in the handicapped seats to move, once they have been seated, although ...
A driver is required to ask able-bodied guests in the designated handicapped seats to move if the seats are needed, even if the guests must stand, but guests should never be asked to leave the bus to make room for a late-arriving wheelchair.

Don't blame the driver if it seems to be taking too long to strap down a wheelchair or scooter. First, we are trained to take as long as it takes to get the job done safely and courteously. Second, it's not always easy reaching around to attach a strap between the scooter or chair and the wall of the bus. And third, many of the tie-down straps do not function properly, so it can be a challenge getting them attached with only 2 hands.

Don't hold your breath waiting for any solution that requires more manpower, or purchase and maintenance of more vehicles.

Drivers are required to suggest to scooter riders that they transfer to a regular seat. Guests are not supposed to remain on the scooter, unless they are unable to transfer. It's just not safe.

The lifts on the high-floor buses are a problem. WDW only purchases low-floor buses with ramps now, but it will likely be several years before all of the high-floor buses are retired.

[big blue and hairy]

Here's the way I look at it ... Are some people probably abusing the scooters? Yes. I'm sure. Some people cut in line or steal your parade spot or smoke where they're not supposed to. These people are called "idiots" and they're everywhere. The scooter isn't a cause, it's a symptom.

I choose to believe that 95% of the people who are using scooters need them.Well put, I agree 100%

:sulley:

[Marilyn Michetti]

Guys, the bus drivers are required, by law, to load wheelchairs and scooters first.

It's dangerous to sit in my scooter on a moving bus - it becomes top heavy and can topple over.

The bus can only accomodate two scooters - wheelchairs have to be folded and stowed where strollers go.

Lastly, I HATE getting on a bus. My scooter is small, I know how to maneuver it, but there are many times when people make comments or roll their eyes. I need my scooter to get around, but the problem is bad, and like Forrest Gump......."that's all I have to say about that".:confused:

[shev]

"It is this attitude and reckless "driving" of the scooters that I do have a beef with...."

When my son was about nine he was hit by a scooter as we were leaving a restaraunt. Unfortunately he was holding a full drink and he was covered in it. Thankfully he wasn't injured just a little soaked. Ever since then we always avoid anyone driving one of those.

[WDWdriver]

Some points that come up as I read thru the thread...............


Thanks for the input, Joelk. I was wondering why we hadn't yet heard from our resident Disney Transport guy on this topic. ;)

[TinkerbellT421]

Here's the way I look at it ... Are some people probably abusing the scooters? Yes. I'm sure. Some people cut in line or steal your parade spot or smoke where they're not supposed to. These people are called "idiots" and they're everywhere. The scooter isn't a cause, it's a symptom.

I choose to believe that 95% of the people who are using scooters need them.

:ditto: Couldnt have said it better myself. Thank you. :thumbsup:

[TheRustyScupper]

Let's look at both sides:

1) If someone does need a scooter, the ability is there.
2) If someone doesn't need a scooter, it is cheap front-of-line access.

NOTE: If you have six people in you group, a scooter would average $6 per person per day. $6 is pretty cheap front-of-line access for the full party. :mad:

[lighteningqueen]

We were there Dec 5-14th and let me tell you. It was the worst week ever, record crowds by the way will not go back again during this time. Scooters were in the zillions... Bus drivers slinging people around becasue they were not watching, samming on breaks throwning people forward and there was already a full or overfull isle with no where to hang on to.I realize some need them but like another posted said we saw many of these people in the parks several times and they had no issues. Little grandkids driving them etc. We waited no less than 20 minutes for them to load scooters that had just come up to the line and their 8 family memebers while the rest of us tired and had walked all day long had waited over 25 minutes for each bus to come and then when the scooters and all their familys came there was not enough room for the lines to go down. I can tell you of the 9 days we were there we stood all but 2 trips of the trip due to no seats. There was always 2 scooters that 2 very overweight people came off of and had to take 2 seats each then one family had 6 members and the other had nine. That's nineteen seats taken that one trip. We would have to wait again another 25-30 minutes for the next bus would come and hope that there were not 2 more scooters that just rolled up with their familys. This is a HUGE issue and needs to be regulated with a CM at every stop. We saw groups of foreign kids in regular wheelchairs that waited in line next to us for a show. then later found that guy to be pushing one of the other guys around doing wheelies driving or steering them crazy having fun. I am sure it was to get at the front of the lines. Which by the way were the worst ever. 30 minute waits were at least 50 minutes some were even longer. This week has seemed to be the most crowded week of all. We will not go again in this season and it's too bad because we really enjoyed it last year. The hub waiting for the Castle lighting was a nightmare it took us over an hour to move thru it. Again EVC's and strollers jammed the whole thing up and the parents were sitting on the ground with this double stroller just jamming things up. I know I could be a bit harsh about this all, but ask anyone who was there that same week and I will bet they saw the same things. It will be many years before we go back there and hope also they improve the food in the meantime along with the buses.

[JRocker]

I'm not a doctor, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so I am not qualified to tell you who needs the scooters and who doesn't.

Unless you want to give someone a thorough exam and check up, you can't tell if they need one or not either.

I have bad knees. My knees were shot by the time I was 24. I walk with a varying limp. One day it is barely noticeable, another day it would hurt you to watch me walk.

For twenty years I have worked at a place where I am on my feet for 12 hours a day. Somedays I feel fine, other days the pain nearly brings me to a stop.

When I go to WDW I DON'T use a scooter, although some days I SHOULD. I guarantee you that if I was to use a scooter at the park on one of my not-so-good days, you would see me walking around somewhere else, later that evening, without any visible signs of a handicap. You may even see me letting my wife use it for a few minutes so she can rest her tired feet, and I can loosen up a bit. From what I have read over the years, on this board, I would most definately be accused of being someone who abuses the system.

For myself, I have not yet reached that plateau of perfection where I feel it is time to try and make everyone else perfect.

IMO, WDW does a fine job when you consider the rising scooter population. Is it frustrating when faced with the situations talked about in this thread? Yes it is. Is it something that I am going to let interfere with my vacation? Um, as if.

[mom2morgan]

Again, I know there are people who truly need scooters. But they should really have to wait in line like the rest of us. We paid the same amount, we should get the same magical service.
I just got back from the same dates - I didn't personally see much of a problem, but my 16 year old daughter would DEFINITELY agree. She spent one whole day park hopping to shop so she was on and off buses continually, and said it was a real problem on several occasions - even costing her a ride twice when the families of scooter-ers took up so much room that she couldn't get on the bus at all, being too far back in the line. She said one situation had the lift go up and down three times since the scooter and the rider had to be lifted separately. And she DID note that a lot of the scooter riders seemed mobile enough when off their machines - just terribly over-weight. That might be the elitism of a 16 year old talking - but in SOME cases I do wonder.... Before y'all beat me up for criticizing those too overweight to be mobile I'll mention that I'm 270 pounds and my feet hurt like heck right now, but I walked everywhere ;-)

[Seasonscraps]

Here's the way I look at it ... Are some people probably abusing the scooters? Yes. I'm sure. Some people cut in line or steal your parade spot or smoke where they're not supposed to. These people are called "idiots" and they're everywhere. The scooter isn't a cause, it's a symptom.

I choose to believe that 95% of the people who are using scooters need them.

I agree 100%

There's always going to be someone that tries to work the system but for the most part I think people that are using ECVs need them for one reason or another.

I don't understand how anyone can question someone else's need for the scooter. As it's been mentioned numerous times - you can't tell by looking why someone is using one. And really, what difference does it make if it's because they are overweight? If someone is unable to walk around the park and is willing to pay for an ECV rental, that's there perogative and it's really not any one else's business.

The bus situation is what it is. It's frustrating but then it's frustrating anytime there's so many people in one place trying to do the same thing at the same time. It's hard to manage everyone fairly. There are rules about how and when ECVs must be loaded that prevent partially loading the bus before a person on an ECV. I think there was a suggestion to limit the number of people that can board with someone in an ECV - most families don't want to split and take seperate buses.

Maybe it would help if dispatchers are stationed at the bus depots help with line control - make sure the resorts with the longer lines get the buses, etc.

[kristnjohn]

I'll admit first off that I did not read this entire post, however I did read the first post, and I couldn't agree more. We were there with a group of 11 a couple weeks ago, which included a 78 year old with 2 recently repaired knees, and she truly needed a wheelchair. While sometimes we used it at the busses, and sometimes we chose to rent in the parks, it was amazing how many times we waited for a scooter to load. Now, I don't mind waiting for a scooter to load (if the person in the scooter isn't abusing the "need" of one), but the fact that they would skip the entire queue of people waiting longer than them drove me nutz, and it's probably a good thing my wife was there preventing me from saying something on more than one occasion. Case and point?? We (all 11 of us) were leaving Magic Kingdom one night with a scooter to load and got to the very full queue of people all waiting to get back to the hotel, just as we were. We left a few people with the scooter in the "handicapped" front portion of the line, and the rest of us headed into the line. When the people in line would get to the front, then the scooter would board also, essentially waiting our turn. HOWEVER - While the "scooter people" were waiting, another group, larger than ours, pulled in behind us and when we told the driver we were waiting our turn, the people behind us jumped in front of us and boarded regardless! I was so irate, and wish Disney would address the issue, because it is becoming an issue. I know they don't want to offend the few people waiting in line with scooters, however that night they made a couple people happy, and made more than a couple people very upset. I would propose special accessibility busses to run for scooters only, and leave the rest of them full of seats. The special accessibility busses would take different routes than standard busses as they would pick up for more than one drop off point at a time, but maybe the longer bus ride would deter people from using their scooters too much if they don't need them in the first place.

[CleveRocks]

I'll admit first off that I did not read this entire post, however I did read the first post, and I couldn't agree more.
Let me suggest you read the thread. You never know, you might just learn something.

[MushuGrl]

Ian made a very valid point. I was at WDW on Dec. 7-13, and there were alot of scooters. That didn't bother me. I don't mind waiting at all. As a matter of fact, I'd like to commend the bus drivers for the fast, efficient job they did in loading them.

I also don't mind giving my seat up for someone - as a matter of fact, if I am sitting, I always look to see if someone else needs my seat worse (an elderly person, someone holding a child, etc.) I've been on enough trips with packed buses that standing no big deal for me. I don't mind the family that boards along with - my mother was wheelchair bound due to illness last year, and I wouldn't have left her side for anything.

I DID urk me a bit when I'd been standing there a while and JUST before I was about to get on the bus, someone JUST pulls up and gets taken on. But it didn't bother me enough to get me steaming.

What DOES, like Ian said, is RUDE PEOPLE. One instance for example was a woman who pulled up just as our bus pulled up and another person was loaded on - a member of her family got VERY rude with the bus driver, DEMANDING he put her on IMMEDIATELY. No sense in it, since he probably would have done it anyways, and second bus pulled up as she was being loaded on.

But unfortunately, those people are everywhere. Like Ian said, they cut in line, they smoke in line, they run over you with strollers, scooters, and clobber you with their bags.

Come to think of it, I had more trouble with strollers than scooters...my poor calves... they make KILLER battering rams....

[Gator]

Let me suggest you read the thread. You never know, you might just learn something.

Someone doesn't have to read everybody's opinion to have a valid one. Besides, I doubt there is anything that anyone could say about this that could make me think, "I shouldn't feel this way."

Here's the bottom line. Those with opinions like mine will eventually stop going to Disney resorts. Why? Because the convenience of taking the bus is no longer convenient. I'd rather save a ton of money each night by staying at a non-Disney resort, renting a car, and paying parking fees....vs the alternative of paying loads more, waiting an extra 20-30 minutes each bus ride, and then stand on the bus with two kids and a stroller while scooter-family gets VIP treatment. Disney will have to fix this or people will stop spending money at their resorts. I have no intentions of putting myself through that again.

I fly across the USA because WDW is so much more magical than DL. But when you have to wait for a scooter w/family for every bus ride, I'm not feeling the least bit magical by the time I get to the parks. These folks already get to skip the lines at the parks. Why should they get to skip the lines for the bus?

[CleveRocks]

Why should they get to skip the lines for the bus?
Perhaps I'll try to appeal to you in another way. If you are seated on a bus and an elderly lady gets on, do you voluntarily give up your seat for her? How about a pregnant lady?

I'm guessing the answer is "Yes." So my question is, why do you do so? Your answer would probably be something like, "Because it's just good manners, it's just the right thing to do."

In my opinion, the same applies to someone with a disability. We able-bodied people have it much better than they do ... so I say, why not be gracious and nice and help out a little?

I'm not saying you should agree with me (God Bless America, we're each entitled to our own opinions!), but I'm just trying to help you see where some others are coming from here.

[CleveRocks]

These folks already get to skip the lines at the parks.
I put the blame for that squarely on Disney. It doesn't have to be that way. Already, many of the rides/attractions DO NOT grant front-of-the-line access to individuals in wheelchairs and on scooters, because the ride/attraction queue is accessible to those vehicles just as it is to those of us walking.

As long as there is room for them to safely manuever their chair or scooter through the ride/attraction queue, there is NO REASON why people using those things should just automatically be let to the front of the line for that ride/attraction. They don't deserve to get there any sooner than I do. Disney should change their existing queues, where there is the possibility to do so, to allow equal access to everyone.

Now, just so you don't accuse me of being hypocritical, this is not in the same league as the bus discussion. WHY? Because, as I stated earlier, they could be in line for the bus but then be inconvenienced by having to wait for the next bus because there's no room to load them and their conveyance, even though there's still room for 20 able-bodied people behind them; in other words, even though they waited in line they will probably still have to wait even longer than that. But in a totally accessible ride queue, they wouldn't need special favors because when they get to the front of the line they won't then have to wait and let able-bodied people past them. Make sense?

The reason I see a difference between you and I is that I am taking a practical, matter-of-fact viewpoint of it ... I'm not automatically favoring someone because they havea disability. You, on the other hand, appear to have the attitude, "Hey, they get stuff that I don't, and I don't like it."

However, and I mean this in a totally serious and non-sarcastic way, I think you're making an excellent choice for yourself to continue to experience the magic of WDW by recognizing what you don't like (WDW transportation) and making plans to get around that in the future, by staying off-site. You get everything you love about the place, with none of the things that frustrate you.

I hope you're able to enjoy your future visits. I know I will!

[VWL Mom]

IMO the problem is not the scooters per se rather the traveling companions that are causing others to become frustrated. The group of 19 mentioned by another PP must have been the same group we encountered in 2007. They made the entire bus experience a fiasco.

Kudos to the group of 11 that left some of their group with the scooter and then got in line. :thumbsup: That is what should be done. The driver would just ask the special needs guest if others were traveling with them, count their position in line, let the person know or no whether the rest of the group will be on the bus with them and have them decide whether they want to board or wait.

Just as many said, we don't know what's wrong with people in scooters; however, we don't know what's wrong with those not in scooters either. My son looks fine to people but he is special needs. Waiting in line with him when he was younger was not a lot of fun. He was not in a wheelchair and was never granted front of the line access. We just helped him cope.

[JRocker]

One part of this conversation that just blows my mind is that people are suggesting that families should have to split up at the bus stop because of someone's disability.

I don't know about anyone else, but my vacations are time that I set aside to spend with my family.

What's next? Your family will have to ride seperate busses because Uncle Remo is bald. Aunt Christine, I am so sorry, but you will have to ride another bus because of that mole on your neck, the people in line find it disgusting to look at.

Give me a break. These are human beings we are talking about, not scooters. Disney is doing what it can to accomodate PEOPLE that need these scooters, or wheel chairs. They go well beyond what goes on in the outside world.

Guess what. They also accomodate selfish people, rude people, and on occasion, good people.

[Disney Doll]

I really do see both sides of the issue. My mom will be using an ECV for the first time in WDW next month and we are renting a car specifically to avoid the bus fiasco. I do not think the current system is fair to anyone. I know I am sometimes irritated by scooters who get to roll up at the last minute and are guaranteed a spot at the front of the line. My mom will be the first to tell you that as a scooter user she does not want any special treatment and in fact hates the attention that special treatment draws. Since we are not happy with the way the current system is set up we are renting a car that way mom can take her time loading up and won't have to worry about whether or not she's cutting in line. When mom is not along we do use the bus and while I am sympathetic to scooter users because of my mom I have noticed that not all share her sense of fairness and equality. We just grin and bear it figuring that karma will sort them out eventually.

I do think that the original poster has a valid point though about needing some way to better manage the situation before it costs Disney business. Even though my mom is renting a car she will stay on-site to be near us. However, she is not the die hard Disney fan that I am and staying off site is looking more attractive especially if you are already renting a car.

I also think that much of the frustration stems from inexperienced users trying to manipulate an unfamiliar scooter in a crowd. That just seems like a recipe for disaster to me. I know many have encountered reckless and dangerous scooter drivers and that does not help people feel sympathetic for the scooter users as a whole. It seems like you should have to go through some sort of training or get a license to drive those things. Last trip we saw a scooter coming down the dock to load the boat that goes from POFQ to DD. The lady driving the scooter quite nearly ran off the dock and into the water. We're talking about inches. Our boat captain nearly had a heart attack and I heard several gasps from others on the bus as she sped by the loading area. She laughed it off saying she didn't normally use a scooter. I can tell you for sure our poor captain was not laughing. Clearly she was a danger to herself and a danger to other people on that thing.

[CU Tiger]

I can also see both sides of this issue. I help my dad get around DW on his scooter in the parks and with the transportation. I am so impressed with how well Disney handles the handicap! :thumbsup: We usually have a group of 6 people and I feel bad:blush: when they call us up front to get loaded. I know people have been waiting longer than us and I do think we have any more right to load first than they do, but you cannot load a scooter with people on board. I usually have to park it for my dad and it is not as easy as it looks. My dad is not able to ride many rides, but I can almost feel the daggers in my back from the stares :mad:of the people waiting in line on the rides we do go on. It is nice that we can stay together as a family when riding the rides or using the transportation. I know you cannot tell if someone needs a scooter just by looking at them, but with the number of them out there, you know there are people taking advantage of situation. I do not know how you make everyone happen on this topic. I think Disney is doing the best it can.:mickey:

[diz_girl]

And she DID note that a lot of the scooter riders seemed mobile enough when off their machines - just terribly over-weight. That might be the elitism of a 16 year old talking - but in SOME cases I do wonder...
I didn't want to mention that before, but a significant number of the middle-aged (40's & 50's) that I noticed on scooters were a bit plump - with many couples and families on scooters for that matter.

[dtootsie42]

One thing I have noticed in this thread is the seats being taken by family members getting on board with the person in the scooter. Is this something that just started happening?

Our last trip to The World was December 2007, anytime we had to use a bus we noticed that one family member stayed with the person on the scooter and the rest got in line. If they got seperated I heard several family members say we will meet at such and such when we get there.

I guess I'm not sure why the entire family feels they are entitled to get on with the scooter instead of waiting in line like the rest of us?!

Dec. 1997---Contemporary
Dec. 1999--Poly
June 2000--Disneyland
Dec. 2001---Poly Concierge
Dec. 2003---Poly Concierge
Dec. 2005---Poly Concierge
Nov. 2007---Poly Concierge
Oct. 2008--DisneyLand

[Ian]

I didn't want to mention that before, but a significant number of the middle-aged (40's & 50's) that I noticed on scooters were a bit plump - with many couples and families on scooters for that matter.This is probably a symptom, not a root cause.

People who are immobile due to health issues are, quite naturally, going to tend to be on the heavier side since they most likely can't exercise frequently.

[peemagg]

As the pp said "people who are disabled are probably going to be heavier because of the inability to exercise."

That is very true. I know for a fact that since my foot surgery in May I have not been able to do the exercises that I would like to. Consequently I have put on some weight. The problem with my disability has nothing to do with my weight. It comes from a car accident 15 years ago that destroyed both the bones and nerves in my foot.

In May I will be traveling with my scooter and using the buses. Sometimes you will see my Mother using the scooter and me walking, because some walking is good for me, but I am not capable of walking the distances needed in Disney. In fact I can't walk enough to go shopping at the local supermarket without great pain. To see me you will see no visible disability when I am on the scooter, but to see me walk you would be able to see a problem.

I am sure that I will get lots of nasty looks and comments from some of you, but be prepared for the look or comment I give back! I would love to be able to walk a distance again, and be able to go back to my career where I was on my feet for 8 hours a day. Unfortunately that will never be again. I hope that none of you ever has to be in this situation sometime, but only God knows what tomorrow will bring for you. It could be you in that chair the next time!

Just as an FYI, I will be standing back with the scooter and letting my Mother get in line and wait till she gets to the front of the line before boarding. I don't believe that just because I am in the scooter that I should take precidence over any one who has been waiting before I got there. If it is possible I will ride the scooter through the line and wait my turn. If all would do this it would make most of this thread a mute point.

[JPL]

I think this problem really stems from the front of line access given to scooters. Yes I understand that they must be loaded first so they can drive onto an empty bus. I don't think most people have a problem with that. Where the problem comes into full effect is when the bus line is long and people have been waiting a long time and right before a bus rolls a scooter and a group of people pull up and get boarded first. It would be one thing if the bus system was efficient and you knew another bus was coming right behind but we all know how poorly managed the system is especially recently which compounds the problem. The mismanagement goes way beyond scooters but they are just the most visible of the issues.
Some examples from my most recent trip were unbelievable.

2 buses pulling up at the same time and a Disney CM directing the back of the line into the second bus while the people like me in the middle of the line that would have made the second bus got cut off from the first bus and had to wait another 25 minutes for a third bus.

Empty bus after empty bus pulling out for the Caribbean Beach and a line at least 4 buses long waiting for Pop Century. I would seriously say it was about 4 empty buses for CBR.

Buses stopping at Blizzard Beach on their way to AK when it was closed for the day.

Considering wants it's guest to be trapped on their property and not rent a car to go offsite you would figure this would be something that runs smoothly.

[joelkfla]

It would be one thing if the bus system was efficient and you knew another bus was coming right behind but we all know how poorly managed the system is especially recently which compounds the problem. The mismanagement goes way beyond scooters but they are just the most visible of the issues.
Some examples from my most recent trip were unbelievable.

2 buses pulling up at the same time and a Disney CM directing the back of the line into the second bus while the people like me in the middle of the line that would have made the second bus got cut off from the first bus and had to wait another 25 minutes for a third bus.

Empty bus after empty bus pulling out for the Caribbean Beach and a line at least 4 buses long waiting for Pop Century. I would seriously say it was about 4 empty buses for CBR.

Buses stopping at Blizzard Beach on their way to AK when it was closed for the day.
These are things which should be called out in a letter or email to Disney.

We drivers all know they're happening, but, as always, comments from Guests carry a lot more weight with management than do comments from cast members.

[Dr. Disney]

Honestly, I think that the most fair option is for the rest of the party or at least one party representative to get in the line normally, and the person on the scooter can load with them when they reach the front. I have nothing against people in scooters, but I'd be lying if I said that it isn't slightly annoying when I've been waiting 20 mins for the bus to get there, and two big scooter groups roll in at the last minute and I end up missing getting on that bus by a handful of people (this has happened at least once on my past three trips).

I couldn't say it better myself!!! We were there Dec. 8th - 15th and it was rediculous!! We'd wait for 20mins+ for a bus in a long line, only to have a scooter pull up at the last second, and get priority seating w/ their entire group. I don't mind waiting for the scooter to load, but it is only fair they also wait in line, or someone waits in line for them.. or, if Disney keeps w/ the same policy, the persoin on the scooter should be able to board w/ only ONE companion... THAT WOULD BE FAIR

[Seasonscraps]

I couldn't say it better myself!!! We were there Dec. 8th - 15th and it was rediculous!! We'd wait for 20mins+ for a bus in a long line, only to have a scooter pull up at the last second, and get priority seating w/ their entire group. I don't mind waiting for the scooter to load, but it is only fair they also wait in line, or someone waits in line for them.. or, if Disney keeps w/ the same policy, the persoin on the scooter should be able to board w/ only ONE companion... THAT WOULD BE FAIR

What happens to the other people in their group - do they go to the end of the line?
What if 3 people are in the group?
What if it was 2 adults & 3 children?

Disney can't make a policy to split up families like that. It's, well, un-Disney like.

[stitchaholic]

The reason I see a difference between you and I is that I am taking a practical, matter-of-fact viewpoint of it ... I'm not automatically favoring someone because they havea disability. You, on the other hand, appear to have the attitude, "Hey, they get stuff that I don't, and I don't like it."

However, and I mean this in a totally serious and non-sarcastic way, I think you're making an excellent choice for yourself to continue to experience the magic of WDW by recognizing what you don't like (WDW transportation) and making plans to get around that in the future, by staying off-site. You get everything you love about the place, with none of the things that frustrate you.
that quote go a standing ovation from me in my living room!
that being said,i do hope that all the gathering of the scooter user will gladly give up their seats for any elderly,toddlers or mother's with babies! last year i even had my 6 and 8 year old give up their seats(after a long day in the parc) to someone who may have needed it more,this is a lesson in curtosy and compassion.something that we no longer see alot of anymore!

[JPL]

These are things which should be called out in a letter or email to Disney.


Believe me I intend to write them an e-mail regarding these concerns as well as a few other things I noticed during my trip. I am a firm believer that as cosumers we tend to let too many things slide and this is why customer service levels keep dropping off because we allow it.

[Bri]

we just got back last monday and we noticed a huge increase in scooter and wheelchairs. there a few things that really got under my skin:

1. i saw numerous people in wheelchairs, not scooters, who were sitting in the chair but actually using their feet to move the chair. a lot of the time it was a teenager doing this. my question is what exactly is the problem that you need a wheelchair if you are going to use your own feet to move it anyway.

2. i do not agree that people using scooters/wheelchairs should jump the attraction line. if you need to go to a different que to get on the ride, that's fine i don't have a problem with that. i do have a problem when i'm waiting in a 60 minute line and the person in the scooter goes right up to the front and gets right on the ride. the only ride that i can remember that this didn't happen on is toy story mania. wheelchairs and scooters waited in the line like normal and then went to wait in a special line cause obviously they couldn't get up the steps.

3. i can't count how many times my fiance's feet got ran over not only by wheelchairs and scooters, but also by strollers.

4. i agree with the original poster about the wheelchairs and scooters getting on the bus first with their whole family. we are all paying the same amount of money to be there so it should be first come first serve. not first come first serve unless you're in a scooter, then it's come whenever you want and be first anyway. i think it's a great idea that scooters should wait in the bus line like everyone else and get on the bus only when they are at the front of the line and it's their turn.

i really do understand that people need to be in scooters and wheelchairs. my brother had a scooter when he broke his femer (sp?). i just hate to see people take advantage of being in that situation. there has to be a more fair way to accomodate the scooters and wheelchairs without pushing aside non-disabled people.

[KLD]

First of all, I want to say that there are many sensitive and courteous people who have responded in this thread - god bless you. The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I was in WDW Nov 28 - Dec 9 with my 9yr old son who because of a broken femur and being confined to a body cast was in a wheelchair. We had to use the buses to get around, I have never experienced so many rude and obnoxious people in my life! By the second day of our trip my son was in tears. People made him feel bad for being hurt. He would have given anything to be standing in line for all the attractions he could not visit than get "special front of the line" priveledges; maybe you should all be greatfull that you and your families are healthy and able bodied than waste your time complaining about others. Some people would actually say to our faces "Oh, great a wheelchair, now we have to wait" How do you think that made him feel? He made the choice for the sake of our family to still go on this trip eventhough he would be missing out on a lot - he was extremely unselfish and then had to deal with what we encountered in the so called "most magical place on earth". My suggestion is think of the golden rule before you judge others!

[mom2morgan]

I'm so sorry that your son experienced so much disappointment and insensitivity. Did he still enjoy the vacation? I hope it wsn't completely spoiled for the poor little guy! I don't think ANYONE here is unsympathetic to those that actually require wheelchairs and scooters. We're just a little cynical about those how use them even though they don't really "need" them (and I know there are some!!) and with whole large groups getting to jump the queue as result. I can't imagine anyone rude enough to be unkind to an injured child, and I can only hope that Karma pays them back for it.


First of all, I want to say that there are many sensitive and courteous people who have responded in this thread - god bless you. The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I was in WDW Nov 28 - Dec 9 with my 9yr old son who because of a broken femur and being confined to a body cast was in a wheelchair. We had to use the buses to get around, I have never experienced so many rude and obnoxious people in my life! By the second day of our trip my son was in tears. People made him feel bad for being hurt. He would have given anything to be standing in line for all the attractions he could not visit than get "special front of the line" priveledges; maybe you should all be greatfull that you and your families are healthy and able bodied than waste your time complaining about others. Some people would actually say to our faces "Oh, great a wheelchair, now we have to wait" How do you think that made him feel? He made the choice for the sake of our family to still go on this trip eventhough he would be missing out on a lot - he was extremely unselfish and then had to deal with what we encountered in the so called "most magical place on earth". My suggestion is think of the golden rule before you judge others!

[AmandaChan]

I noticed this a lot too, the last time. But it is not Disney's or anyone else's place to tell someone they are not handicapped and they do not need a scooter. Because you were there for 10 days (and I think most people would consider that an extended stay for a normal Disney trip), perhaps you became more aggravated with it since it probably happened a LOT? If you rent a car and keep it at the Disney resort you can park in the parks for free. I am not saying that is not frustrating because it is (we stayed for 9 days on our last trip and it became pretty tiresome) but it is not fair to tell anyone who wants to use their scooter to get on the bus with their family members that they can't. Plus, we get OFF of the bus first! I have never waited more than 5 minutes for a scooter to get on a bus and the buses for 85% of the time were prompt and timely. And I never saw more than 1 scooter get on a bus at a time/waiting in line. So I'm not really sure if a transportation solely for scooters would be practical. Plus how would you regulate that? One bus per park per hotel, etc. What if there aren't enough to make a huge change and it wastes gas, etc. Just an idea. And with the number of family members getting on the bus, that is kind of a grey area. If for example my husband needed a scooter and we had two young children are they going to make me and my two young children get at the end of A HUGE LINE and NOT get to ride with him? ??? at how many family members would you cut that off?? We just have to hope people would not abuse the situation and if they can deal with not going with their family member and there is not a huge line then maybe they CAN wait in line?

[AmandaChan]

I am very sorry to hear about this! Stress and excitement bring out the worst in people. I am sure that some of those people truly didn't mean what they said. I hate to hear angry parents or angry adults at the parks, but that's what heat/stress does to some people.


First of all, I want to say that there are many sensitive and courteous people who have responded in this thread - god bless you. The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I was in WDW Nov 28 - Dec 9 with my 9yr old son who because of a broken femur and being confined to a body cast was in a wheelchair. We had to use the buses to get around, I have never experienced so many rude and obnoxious people in my life! By the second day of our trip my son was in tears. People made him feel bad for being hurt. He would have given anything to be standing in line for all the attractions he could not visit than get "special front of the line" priveledges; maybe you should all be greatfull that you and your families are healthy and able bodied than waste your time complaining about others. Some people would actually say to our faces "Oh, great a wheelchair, now we have to wait" How do you think that made him feel? He made the choice for the sake of our family to still go on this trip eventhough he would be missing out on a lot - he was extremely unselfish and then had to deal with what we encountered in the so called "most magical place on earth". My suggestion is think of the golden rule before you judge others!

[peemagg]

As far as for the lines for rides go, a lot of them have been changed over so that the person in the wheelchair or scooter goes through the lines like everyone else. Most of the newer rides are set up that way and Disney is changing the rest of them when they do refurbs on them.

When it comes to the buses I think the lines are wide enough to manuver a scooter through and I am going to try it in May. If I can get my scooter through there I will wait in line with my Mother. When we get to the front we will wait until we are first in line. I will then move over to the area that I am supposed to be waiting.
I expect though that any of you who are in line with me, had better speak up if someone else in a scooter pulls up and tries to knock me off of that bus. If I can't get through the lines with the scooter I will wait off to the side until my Mother gets to the front then I will board.

I feel this is the only fair way to so this for all.

[PirateLover]

When it comes to the buses I think the lines are wide enough to manuver a scooter through and I am going to try it in May. If I can get my scooter through there I will wait in line with my Mother. When we get to the front we will wait until we are first in line. I will then move over to the area that I am supposed to be waiting.... If I can't get through the lines with the scooter I will wait off to the side until my Mother gets to the front then I will board.

I feel this is the only fair way to so this for all.
Let us know how this works out. This is the idea I was trying to propose, but I'm not sure that it was completely understood.

I would also like to address the issue of "splitting up families." Say you are doing a grand gathering and have, oh, I don't know, 10 people. Let's say Grams, Gramps, Mom, Dad, Jr, Sally, Aunt Susie, Uncle Ted, Cousin Bob, Cousin Becky. Grams is the only one in the scooter. Is it such a terrible thing for one to suggest that Grams board with Gramps and maybe Dad, and the rest of the party waits together in the regular line? Does it really make a trip less magical to be on a different bus? I don't think anyone is suggesting that an immediate family gets split up, more so these large groups. (For the record though, I've never seen a group larger than 6. But people earlier in the thread were talking about groups of this size so I just wanted to throw it out there).

And I would like to reiterate that for me personally, I would never question anyone's need for a scooter. I've never shot a person in a scooter/wheelchair or any members of their parties dirty looks. I am a strong believer that people with disabilities, long or short term, should be able to experience as normal a life as possible. That is all.

[JRocker]

I would also like to address the issue of "splitting up families." Say you are doing a grand gathering and have, oh, I don't know, 10 people. Let's say Grams, Gramps, Mom, Dad, Jr, Sally, Aunt Susie, Uncle Ted, Cousin Bob, Cousin Becky. Grams is the only one in the scooter. Is it such a terrible thing for one to suggest that Grams board with Gramps and maybe Dad, and the rest of the party waits together in the regular line? Does it really make a trip less magical to be on a different bus?

For a lot of people the answer would be yes. I guess I'm not familiar with the whole concept that the further away from center the family member is, the less important they are to the family. I'm not saying that it's wrong, I'm just saying that is not how my family views things.

For myself, the term "immediate family" only holds relevance when it comes to if i get a paid day or two off to attend a funeral. My grandmother is no less family to me than my cousin or my son.

Splitting up the family wouldn't be any less magical to me, in a general sense. But if I have to split up the family because someone has a disdain for a family members handicap and the perceived privilege that comes with it, then I think that would possibly push me to the brink.

[Seasonscraps]

Splitting up the family wouldn't be any less magical to me, in a general sense. But if I have to split up the family because someone has a disdain for a family members handicap and the perceived privilege that comes with it, then I think that would possibly push me to the brink.

I was thinking the same thing.

The suggestion that able bodied families can travel together but families with someone that requires a wheel chair or ECV should split up is somewhat appalling.

[WDWFanatic]

I was thinking the same thing.

The suggestion that able bodied families can travel together but families with someone that requires a wheel chair or ECV should split up is somewhat appalling.

Luckily my family has never had to use a WC or ECV and hopefully we never will. I try my best not to judge the people who are using them.

I have breast cancer and you'd never know it by looking at me, so I know never to judge a book by its cover, but...

I seem to remember back in the late 80's if you were in a WC you waited while the rest of your group stood in line and then you all rode together. Why don't they still use this practice? I'm sure most of the people using the chairs would rather do that than endure the rude comments and looks, and it would cut down of the abuse.

[Seasonscraps]

Kelly/WDWFanatic - I have no idea why they changed that practice. It makes sense in a lot of ways. Although, one of the WDW Bus Drivers posted earlier in this thread that guests in wheel chairs & ECVs need to be loaded first so there's enough room on the bus and before anyone else sits in the seats designated for passengers in wheel chairs.

[tyandskyesmom]

I have a couple of questions...

On our last two trips we did a lot of hotel hopping...which means a lot of visiting Epcot area hotels and MK area hotels and then going to a seperate park...and it also meant waiting for a lot of busses that went to multiple hotels before heading out to a park. On those busses, wheel chairs/scooters are loaded where ever they are...meaning that there would be people on the bus already from the previous stop when they were being loaded (this also happens at Downtown Disney too). But you guys keep saying drivers are not allowed (I think I even read suggestion that it would be legally incorrect???) to load a chair with others on the bus...so which is it? Because if it is not allowed then by design, chairs would have an incredibly difficult time riding to or from the Boardwalk area, the MK area, or DD. Yes, it is probably not preferred to load with other passengers already on board but illegal?

On the subject of seperating family members to have some wait in line while the wheel chair bound person waits for them to reach the front or boarding two seperate busses because the chair goes without the able bodied members of that family...are you honestly telling me that gatherings of 9, 10, 11, 12, whatever people all stay together every second of every day while they are on vacation??? Because I have been with my immediate family and my parents (so 6 people) and it is increadibly difficult to get everyone together all of the time with that amount. When we go with me and two kids (10 and 4) we sometimes even split up...so I think that sometimes the importance of a simple ride to of from a park without all of your 10 family members ruining your vacation or even making it less than magical is a bit far fetched in most cases.

I don't think this post was meant to bash people who need to use chairs...and some of the comments towards people who are commenting is un-called for. The post was about the way the bus system works when there are chairs/scooters involved. It is not up to anyone to judge if someone needs the chair or not. I am quite sure no one wants to be in the chair. I am quite sure none of the rest of us want to be in a chair. And just as we don't know why someone is using a chair, we also do not know why someone else is in a hurry to board the bus or why they may feel the need to sit on the bus. It may just be a couple of more minutes standing to one person but it may be the stress that puts the next one over the edge. So just because I am standing does not mean I can wait longer...in fact, in a chair, you may be more able to wait than some of the people standing.

My point is, no one should be judging anyone. Whether you are in a chair or walking. We all have our own issues, injuries, problems. We all have good days and bad ones. Just be good to eachother.

[JRocker]

On the subject of seperating family members to have some wait in line while the wheel chair bound person waits for them to reach the front or boarding two seperate busses because the chair goes without the able bodied members of that family...are you honestly telling me that gatherings of 9, 10, 11, 12, whatever people all stay together every second of every day while they are on vacation??? Because I have been with my immediate family and my parents (so 6 people) and it is increadibly difficult to get everyone together all of the time with that amount. When we go with me and two kids (10 and 4) we sometimes even split up...so I think that sometimes the importance of a simple ride to of from a park without all of your 10 family members ruining your vacation or even making it less than magical is a bit far fetched in most cases.

You are basically saying what I said, except for one small thing, that I don't think you picked up on.


But if I have to split up the family because someone has a disdain for a family members handicap and the perceived privilege that comes with it,

I'm not saying that families stay together every second of the day at WDW. Families split up at the parks all the time, VOLUNTARILY.
What I am questioning is the validity of mandating that families split up because of a disability.

If there was a way to have everybody wait in line and load up on the bus like anyone else who is BLESSED with the ability to WALK, then I am all for it. Who knows, maybe eventually Disney will reconfigure their bus queue system where this can happen. With the rising popularity of ECV's combined with the aging population, I am sure they are already working on a resolution.

Until that happens we write letters to encourage a positive change. And that's all great, as long as we remember we are talking about other PEOPLE. It seems that somewhere along the line that has been forgotten, at least I hope that's the case.

[tyandskyesmom]

You are basically saying what I said, except for one small thing, that I don't think you picked up on.



I'm not saying that families stay together every second of the day at WDW. Families split up at the parks all the time, VOLUNTARILY.
What I am questioning is the validity of mandating that families split up because of a disability.

If there was a way to have everybody wait in line and load up on the bus like anyone else who is BLESSED with the ability to WALK, then I am all for it. Who knows, maybe eventually Disney will reconfigure their bus queue system where this can happen. With the rising popularity of ECV's combined with the aging population, I am sure they are already working on a resolution.

Until that happens we write letters to encourage a positive change. And that's all great, as long as we remember we are talking about other PEOPLE. It seems that somewhere along the line that has been forgotten, at least I hope that's the case.

I guess maybe the part you are saying I did not pick up on is something I am not understanding. To me, I read your statement to say that people have a problem with someone's problem and think that it is a privilege obtained because of that problem. Is that what you meant? Because if it is, I don't think people have issues with the fact that a person is in a wheel chair/scooter. I don't think they have a problem with the necessity of the chair to be boarded on to an empty bus before walking guests. But if, as I am reading your statement, you mean that people think it is a priviledge to board the bus as soon as you arrive at the line...it is. Sadly, you may have afforded that priviledge as a horrible price but it is still a priviledge. And it is a priviledge to a walking person as well as someone in a chair. Getting to not have to go through a line is not a priviledge...it is out of necessity, the line being made too small for a chair to comfortably get through. Getting to actually board the bus before others is not a priviledge...it is out of safety and convienence for all involved. But getting to roll up to a line 3-4 busses thick and get right on the next one with all of your family members most certainly is a priviledge...and one that I have many nights wished I had had.

And since we have had a lot of examples pro-chair, let me give a few others (and not to argue, just to show that you just never know what is going on with someone!). On our last night in the World in December, the kids and I had a great meal at Narcoossees. While sitting at our wonderful window seat looking out over the castle I noticed Skye (4) looking pale, eyes red and droopy, etc and felt her head ahd she was burning up...no, not a little hot...she was burning up! We had the server box our beautiful desserts and we quickly paid the bill and headed to the momorail to the MK to catch our bus back to Pop. When we saw what should have been our bus approaching, I had Skye get out of her stroller so I could fold it up. To anyone else, she just looked like a tired little girl. To me, she was my sick baby. To her, she was hurting. As we were about to board the bus, a chair pulled up with 9 people and shortly after they began to load, another pulled up with 4. All adults or older kids. So we had to wait another 30 minutes while all of these people got on. I could not hold my baby...she had to walk...I had the stroller, Tyler had the backpack and the dessert bags. We ended up standing that trip. A nice man held the stroller for me so I could hold Skye on the bus while standing. I guarantee you, those two chair bound people could have more comfortably and happily waited for another bus...and most definately their combined 13 other guests could have than Skye could.

On another occasion, earlier in our trip I had a stomach ache...Ty and I had been stomach fluy before we left home and I had been taking an antibiotic that was making me nauseaus every time I would eat but I had not put the two together yet(and we were on the deluxe dining plan so that meant a lot of eating!) and by the time we got the the stop and waited for our bus, I needed a bathroom real bad (sorry, TMI!). The two chairs (there were almost always two chairs loaded at all our bus ventures) loading took 20 minutes and their guests took many of the seats (I do not know how many there were...towards the end of the trip you start noticing those things better!). I was in pain...big time!

My point is, it is a priviledge to board without waiting and to sit for your ride. I feel priviledged to board without waiting every time I walk up to a bus stop and there is no one there. There were many times this past trip that we opted to let others take advantage of standing room only so that we could get seats on the next bus. But just because other people are not in a chair, they should not be judged either. Priviledge goes both ways, prejudice goes both ways, sense of entitlement goes both ways.

Tyler has stood so others could sit. I have held both kids on my lap so others could sit. We let an elderly couple take our seats on one trip home late at night because they looked like they needed it more than we did. I have spent a lot of time in line explaining to my kids why they are waiting longer and how the person in the chair most likely wishes they could be standing in line with us. So it is not lack of compassion or ignorance or selfishness that drives these kinds of posts but a need to try to correct something that is built wrong. No one is blaming the people in chairs for they way things are done at Disney but expressing their disappointment that Disney cannot figure out a system that would be fair to all. Will that ever happen, maybe not. But this is a place for people to get things off their chests, try to express an opinion, maybe have their eyes opened to a different view or do the opening.

WOW, I am a sounding really preachy and optimistic, aren't I? Well, at least the way I am meaning this does...I hope no one is taking this the wrong way...it is oddly enough all meant ina "give peace a chance", "love your neighbor" sort of a way and believe me, that's not like me...maybe this will be a good year for me after all!!!!

[lindique]

I've been reading this thread with interest, and I will try my best to say what I'm thinking without being disrespectful to anyone.

Disney already has a system in place that lets people go to the front of any line automatically when it is necessary. It's called the Guest Assistance Pass. Why can't these same passes be used for bus queues (for people with or without wheelchairs)? Anyone with a GAP goes straight to the front of the line to be loaded on the next bus - and their families should be allowed to board with them. Others in scooters or wheelchairs but without GAPs should wait their turn like everyone else.

As for loading wheelchairs first, Disney certainly knows by now how many people and wheelchairs a bus can hold. They can somehow put markers in the queue to show each bus load. I suggest that when a bus departs, the wheelchair guests who are in the next group to board can drive to the loading area. When the wheelchairs are on, all ambulatory guests in that bus group can board. That will make sure that all guests in a group are on the same bus. I don't think that families should be split up, but they should get on in the bus in the same order as they got in the queue.

Obviously this plan needs some more work, and I don't know how logical it even is, but it's just a thought.

[KLD]

Earlier in this thread I talked about my injured 9 yr old in a wheelchair and how some were very rude and hurtful to us on our last trip. I will give a bit more information. We were there with a group of 11. Never once did all of us board the bus together at the handicap loading area. Only myself or my husband waited with him and got on the bus with him and then we stood to leave the seats open. The other 9 people with us (incl our other sons) would board from the traditional line, at times that meant they would be on another bus - not a big deal. We just waited for them at our destination. Also, Sherry (tyandskyesmom) indicated how this was a extreme priveledge, sometimes maybe, but sometimes NOT. Many many times the bus would come to the stop already partially full; so the bus driver would not load the wheelchair; one night at Boardwalk we had to wait for 3 buses to get back to our hotel. Believe me with 3 tired children and my 66 yr old father this wait quite the wait for us as well and not really a priveledge, so I agree changes need to be made by disney, but attitudes by other guests need to change as well.

[joelkfla]

They can somehow put markers in the queue to show each bus load. I suggest that when a bus departs, the wheelchair guests who are in the next group to board can drive to the loading area. When the wheelchairs are on, all ambulatory guests in that bus group can board.
First, as always, I am speaking for myself; in no way do my comments reflect Disney's official position.

Your idea is logical, but it is way too complicated. We have guests with all kinds of backrounds, many guests who speak English as a 2nd language, and some who speak barely any English at all. And when a guest arrives at a load zone, 99% of the time there is no cast member to instruct them, and even if the procedure could be explained on a sign, many guests don't read signs while they're on vacation. And most of the Resort load zones don't have any queues set up, because one or two load zones are shared by all five destinations.

And consider this: some wheelchair-bound guests do wait in the regular queue, either because they don't realize we load them first, or to avoid offending other guests. But that just creates more problems. If there are 15 able-bodied guests in front of a wheelchair, now we have to figure out how to get that chair past those 15 and to the back door, without running over any toes.

[Tinkermom]

One part of this conversation that just blows my mind is that people are suggesting that families should have to split up at the bus stop because of someone's disability.

I don't know about anyone else, but my vacations are time that I set aside to spend with my family.

What's next? Your family will have to ride seperate busses because Uncle Remo is bald. Aunt Christine, I am so sorry, but you will have to ride another bus because of that mole on your neck, the people in line find it disgusting to look at.

Give me a break. These are human beings we are talking about, not scooters. Disney is doing what it can to accomodate PEOPLE that need these scooters, or wheel chairs. They go well beyond what goes on in the outside world.

Guess what. They also accomodate selfish people, rude people, and on occasion, good people.

Oh PLEASE!! Why on earth is it fair for Grandma in the wheelchair and all 10 of her family members to get to board first JUST because Grandma is in a wheelchair? More than likely the family will still get to board the same bus just NOT first in line. If by some slim chance they are not on the same bus then that is just the way it goes.

Of course if the disabled person is alone with children and no other adult then of course they should get to board together.

I have no problem with the scooters having to board first - I totally understand the need for this. There is NO need however in allowing the entire party that is with the person in the scooter to board first as well. I do not see how splitting up for 30 minutes or so for a bus ride is such a big deal and this is ONLY if the family ends up on another bus. Otherwise we are only talking about the family being seated separately on the bus which happens to us all of the time.

We always fly Southwest Airlines. My son has a life-threatening peanut allergy and because of this Southwest has us pre-board so that I can wipe down our seat area (this is THEIR policy NOT my request). My son and ONE parent are the only ones allowed to pre-board. The rest of the family has to board in their assigned letter. I have no problem with this as it is only fair. Disney should have the same policy.

[PirateLover]

So it is not lack of compassion or ignorance or selfishness that drives these kinds of posts but a need to try to correct something that is built wrong. No one is blaming the people in chairs for they way things are done at Disney but expressing their disappointment that Disney cannot figure out a system that would be fair to all. Will that ever happen, maybe not. But this is a place for people to get things off their chests, try to express an opinion, maybe have their eyes opened to a different view or do the opening.
Exactly. Thanks. I think that this is a legitimate issue that should be able to be discussed without people being accused of being unsympathetic or for opinions to be attacked.

[Gator]

Oh PLEASE!! Why on earth is it fair for Grandma in the wheelchair and all 10 of her family members to get to board first JUST because Grandma is in a wheelchair? More than likely the family will still get to board the same bus just NOT first in line. If by some slim chance they are not on the same bus then that is just the way it goes.



My point exactly.

Here's an idea. What if Disney outlawed scooters on their bus system. If you want to bring your own scooter into the park, rent a vehicle that can transport it or rent a scooter from Disney. If you want to ride the bus and need wheeled transport, you must be in a wheelchair. Wheelchairs can easily manuever through the line and wait their turn. When they get to the front of the line, they can board the bus through the w/c access. The rider can sit in a bus seat, thier companion can fold up their wheel chair and lock the wheels. In this case, 3 seats aren't taken up by the device. I'm sure there are those who say that can't happen. But what about me and my kids? They can't walk all day so I have to bring a stroller on the bus. When we board, they take a seat and I fold up the stroller. Why can't those using wheeled transport do the same? This way, everybody boards the same way. No special treatment - eveyone gets equal treatment. Also this would save time because we wouldn't have first-time scooter riders trying to park in lock-down areas for half-an-hour. The exception would be those who need ECVs (quadrapalegics, etc.) and they would have to sport a visible license of some type.

Just an idea...that Disney will never use.

[Tinkermom]

My point exactly.

Here's an idea. What if Disney outlawed scooters on their bus system. If you want to bring your own scooter into the park, rent a vehicle that can transport it or rent a scooter from Disney. If you want to ride the bus and need wheeled transport, you must be in a wheelchair. Wheelchairs can easily manuever through the line and wait their turn. When they get to the front of the line, they can board the bus through the w/c access. The rider can sit in a bus seat, thier companion can fold up their wheel chair and lock the wheels. In this case, 3 seats aren't taken up by the device. I'm sure there are those who say that can't happen. But what about me and my kids? They can't walk all day so I have to bring a stroller on the bus. When we board, they take a seat and I fold up the stroller. Why can't those using wheeled transport do the same? This way, everybody boards the same way. No special treatment - eveyone gets equal treatment. Also this would save time because we wouldn't have first-time scooter riders trying to park in lock-down areas for half-an-hour. The exception would be those who need ECVs (quadrapalegics, etc.) and they would have to sport a visible license of some type.

Just an idea...that Disney will never use.

Again, I have no problem with the scooters and I think that they should be able to board first. I definitely think that those with special needs need to be given special assistance. I just do not think it is fair that everyone in their party get to board first as well. After all, they are not special needs.

I also think that if you start instilling too many rules (ie no scooters except those with a license or quadriplegic, etc) no one will be able to keep up with what is allowed and what is not. Allowing scooters to board first with one adult assistant and/or children if no other adult is a good compromise IMHO.

[peemagg]

My point exactly.

Here's an idea. What if Disney outlawed scooters on their bus system. If you want to bring your own scooter into the park, rent a vehicle that can transport it or rent a scooter from Disney. If you want to ride the bus and need wheeled transport, you must be in a wheelchair. Wheelchairs can easily manuever through the line and wait their turn. When they get to the front of the line, they can board the bus through the w/c access. The rider can sit in a bus seat, thier companion can fold up their wheel chair and lock the wheels. In this case, 3 seats aren't taken up by the device. I'm sure there are those who say that can't happen. But what about me and my kids? They can't walk all day so I have to bring a stroller on the bus. When we board, they take a seat and I fold up the stroller. Why can't those using wheeled transport do the same? This way, everybody boards the same way. No special treatment - eveyone gets equal treatment. Also this would save time because we wouldn't have first-time scooter riders trying to park in lock-down areas for half-an-hour. The exception would be those who need ECVs (quadrapalegics, etc.) and they would have to sport a visible license of some type.

Just an idea...that Disney will never use.

Here's another idea that if you don't need a wheelchair or scooter or stroller that you have to rent a vehicle!

What a nasty, prejudice comment on your part! To say if you need a device to help you that you can't use the transportation system that is offered free for all!

By the way, Disney CAN NOT by law discriminate in any way by saying what person can or can not ride their buses. That would be like saying that because you are red or black or white or purple you can't ride. Didn't this country have this problem once before? No one can be discriminated against because of the color of their skin nor whether or not they have a handicap.

[Georgesgirl1]

I would also like to address the issue of "splitting up families." Say you are doing a grand gathering and have, oh, I don't know, 10 people. Let's say Grams, Gramps, Mom, Dad, Jr, Sally, Aunt Susie, Uncle Ted, Cousin Bob, Cousin Becky. Grams is the only one in the scooter. Is it such a terrible thing for one to suggest that Grams board with Gramps and maybe Dad, and the rest of the party waits together in the regular line? Does it really make a trip less magical to be on a different bus?



It shouldn't make a trip less magical, sometimes it just a fact of life. Our family often goes on trips with all the aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. which can easily make our group 10-15 people. We realize that with that big a group we may not all get on the same monorail or bus, so we make plans to meet up at our destination. I don't know why the same can't be expected of a large group with someone in an WC or ECV.

I'm not trying to put down people who need assisstance to get around the parks, I know most people do not abuse the privelege (although some do). I just don't think a group of 10 that pulls up right before the bus should be able to jump in front of everyone who has already been waiting. I think it is totally reasonable that one or two of that group of 10 could load with the disabled person and everyone else wait in line. (And of course kids shouldn't be separated from the adults in their party-i.e. a party with 2 adults and 2 kids)

[CleveRocks]

Gator,

I realize I will never get through to you on any level, so I leave this discussion with 2 thoughts for you:

1) The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 is the law if the land, signed into law by a conservative Republican named President George H.W. Bush. It truly doesn't matter if you like it or not ... it is currently the law of the land. Are you suggesting that Disney break the law??? If you think it's a stupid law, then in addition to sharing your opinions here, I suggest you contact your congressional representative and your two U.S. senators.

2) Beyond laws, there is a concept known as compassion. It can't be legislated, or enforced, it's just a nice thing. Unfortunately, much like "class" or "style" or "charisma," compassion is also one of those things that can't be taught (except to small children as they develop) ... you either have it or you don't.

Compassion, in one sense, means not keeping score to make sure that I get every little tiny bit of everything that anyone else gets. It means not being petty for the selfish sake of being petty.

You probably look at "having a heart" as something for chumps, for weak people. I see it as one of the most manly things I can do, as one of the best ways I can demonstrate to my son how to be a good man and a good American.

Be well, Gator. God forbid if you are ever in the position to need or benefit from any special treatment, I'll gladly wait a few extra minutes with my kids so you and your kids can be wheeled onto the bus.

Peace.

[Gator]

Gator,

I realize I will never get through to you on any level, so I leave this discussion with 2 thoughts for you:


For CleveRocks and Peemag: clearly you have missed the point of my posts. I'm not saying handicapped people (or people who can't walk for an entire week) should be outlawed from the buses. I am well aware of the laws that protect the elderly, and I believe they should be accomodated. What I'm suggesting is that scooters be outlawed on a Disney bus - not wheelchairs, scooters. If someone needs a transport, what's wrong with a wheelchair? The nursing home my own grandmother died in wouldn't allow ECVs. Yeah, that's right, a nursing home. Why would Disney be out of line to do the same? I'm sure you both think I have no compassion for those with special needs. Quite simply, it's the opposite. These same people on scooters (along with their families) consistently showed they had no compassion for anyone else. They took their "special" rights and abused them each time at the bus stop.

The only time it wasn't abused was when a woman in her 60s or 70s in a wheelchair wheeled through the line and waited to board the bus with the rest of us. Myself and another man gave up our seats for her and her husband. They held their own wheel chair as they sat next to my kids. It was exactly how things should be.

But I think I'm spitting in the wind, here. Just as you think you can't get through to me (as you respond to each of my posts specifically), I know you'll never see the other side.

And save your rude comments about me being a criple one day. The fact is, I have rhuematorid arthritis (same as my deceased grandmother). Don't tell me to see the other side. I'm on the other side...and I choose fairness over special rights everytime.

[CleveRocks]

-And save your rude comments about me being a criple one day. The fact is, I have rhuematorid arthritis (same as my deceased grandmother). Don't tell me to see the other side. I'm on the other side...and I choose fairness over special rights everytime.I truly truly didn't mean that last paragraph (in my above post) as rude. I can understand how you could interpret it that way, but please understand that I didn't write it with that "feel" to it.

God Bless America, and the breadth of opinions she allows us.

Peace.

[jakeybake]

I just don't understand why people in scooters have to board before everyone else? Can someone explain that to me please? Why on earth would they be allowed to cut a line of people to board a bus ahead of the rest? I just can't grasp the reason behind it.

They should wait in line like everyone else and if their scooter can't fit in line then a friend or family member can wait in line for them, securing their spot.

There is no medical reason for their having to board before anyone else. I mean they spent time in a very busy theme park with lots and lots of people and lots and lots of lines. Why on earth should the bus line be any different?

The rest of us have to roll the dice on when we should leave the parks to avoid long lines so why should they not have to do the same thing?

If it's equality we are all striving to have then let's have it. Your spot in line is when you arrive, just like everyone else. Can't get much more equal than that can you?

Jay

[Polynesian Dweller]

If it's equality we are all striving to have then let's have it. Your spot in line is when you arrive, just like everyone else. Can't get much more equal than that can you?
Jay

Except that's not how your country's Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) works. It has:
1. Sections devoted specifically to transportation
2. A section that specifically states that theme parks are legally obliged to meet the provisions of the ADA
3. Regulatory and inspection mechanisms for all entities providing transportation
4. specifically says that an entity like Disney or any transportation cannot judge the level or type of disability

So what does that mean. Well, a transportation provider can in no way do anything that is in anyway discriminatory against those with disabilities. Where this comes in with the idea of wait in line is, if the person with disability waits in line and it comes their turn and they are turned away because there is no room for their scooter or ECV but able people still can board then the transportation entity has effectively discriminated against them by making them wait while others go ahead. Bingo, that's a violation of law with fines being applicable.

So, entities like Disney must create procedures that are approved by the regulatory agency that the agency considers to be non-discriminatory. How do you make sure that a disable person never gets prevented to enter when an able person can, well, about your only choice is to board them when there is room which is most likely when the bus first arrives. Thus, the apparent line jumping.

As well, if as ome suggest, that the abled persons who are travelling with the person maybe should have to wait for the next bus, that too is discriminatory. Would you be happy if you had a party of ten and only 5 were allowed on the bus with you. Of course not. So, allowing the group to travel together prevents a situation that could easily be seen as discriminatory against the disabled.

Does the ADA lead to some folks abusing it? No doubt, people find ways to use these things to their advantage. Is it frustrating to have to wait a little longer for a bus back to the resort? Sure it is. But the only real way to fix that is to have smaller crowds.

By the way, we have similar laws in Canada and they are not perfect but they do make the lives of the disabled a little better and allow access to the same things as every one else. And that's the real point here.

[luvdiznee]

Let's look at both sides:

1) If someone does need a scooter, the ability is there.
2) If someone doesn't need a scooter, it is cheap front-of-line access.

NOTE: If you have six people in you group, a scooter would average $6 per person per day. $6 is pretty cheap front-of-line access for the full party. :mad:

Perhaps Disney should look into limiting how many family members are allowed on the bus. There should be nothing wrong with SOME of them having to wait in line. I think I'm going to look into renting a car since they pack you on those busses like sardines, anyway. ;)

[Altair]

Where this comes in with the idea of wait in line is, if the person with disability waits in line and it comes their turn and they are turned away because there is no room for their scooter or ECV but able people still can board then the transportation entity has effectively discriminated against them by making them wait while others go ahead. Bingo, that's a violation of law with fines being applicable.




Yes, this is what the ADA is protecting against. I don't believe anyone here would be against this and not allow a disabled person from getting on a bus. The problem folks are having is the fact that the disabled are given preferred treatment, which in itself is discrimination and violates the ADA.

From the ADA:
"Sec. 202. Discrimination
Subject to the provisions of this title, no qualified individual with a disability shall, by reason of such disability, be excluded from participation in or be denied the benefits of the serivices, programs, or activities of a public entity, or be subjected to discrimination by any such entity."

Also

"Part I--Public Transportation:
Sec. 223. Paratransit as a complement to a fixed route service.
(a)GENERAL RULE- It shall be considered discrimination for purposes of section 202 of this Act and section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 for a public entity which operates a fixed route system to fail to provide with respect to the operations of its fixed route system, in accordance with this section, paratransit and other special transportation services to individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs, that are sufficient to provide to such individuals a level of service (1) which is comparable to the level of descignated public transportation services provided to individuals without disabilities using such system; or (2) in the case of response time, which is comparable, to the extent practicable, to the level of designated public transportation services provided to individuals without disabilites using such system."

So Disney must allow someone in wheelchair or scooter to ride the bus if it was their turn, but can require anyone with a disability to wait their turn. If those with disabilites are afforded preforential treatment the Act is being violated in effect by reverse discrimiantion.

The "Scooters go first" rule is Disney's not required by law.:(

[Polynesian Dweller]

The "Scooters go first" rule is Disney's not required by law.:(
It may not be in written code, but then much of law is not. Much of it is in 'common' law. That's the judgements of lawsuits, discrimination awards etc. comes in. Not everything can be codified but everything can be dealt with in common law.

I have seen discrimination cases here that were similar and won when a disabled person had to wait when their turn came and they couldn't get on but abled people were. Winning of the case made it a precident in common law and common law can and does transcend countries.

The other thing about the US ADA is that it allows the regulator/inspector to determine if the provider entity (Disney in this case) is properly meeting the intention of the law in the way it handles it.

So, regardless of written law the need to accommodate under certain circumstances may be already in common law, and, it is very likely that what Disney is doing has been vetted by the regulatory body and not completely Disney's choice.

But the main point for me has nothing to do with law. It has to do with accommodating diabled people. We are being asked to put up with 10 to 15 minutes inconvenience to make life a little easier for folks who have a lifetime of inconvenience to deal with. And who are we to judge people's needs by looksing alone given the range of incapcitating disorders. Not exactly asking too much of the rest of us and we all need to keep perspective on the relative advantage we have if we are not disabled and bee thankful for that.

[tyandskyesmom]

But the main point for me has nothing to do with law. It has to do with accommodating diabled people. We are being asked to put up with 10 to 15 minutes inconvenience to make life a little easier for folks who have a lifetime of inconvenience to deal with. And who are we to judge people's needs by looksing alone given the range of incapcitating disorders. Not exactly asking too much of the rest of us and we all need to keep perspective on the relative advantage we have if we are not disabled and bee thankful for that.


Ok, maybe I'm back to feeling like myself here but this is the kind of statememnt that is made too often that tries to guilt people into doing something that someone else feels is appropriate. And it is where either people don't say anything or when they do they end up being attacked as unfeeling or uncaring...which I assure you is not the care here. But I take difference to this. I don't think anyone thinks handicapped people shoudl loose the convienences that people without have but at the same time (and here is where you are going to think bad of me) I did not cause them to be in the position they are in. Also, no one, not you, not the person in the chair, not the person standing next to me in line, knows MY situation either. No one is denying them boarding. What we have issues with is the boarding as you roll up and bringing your entire party with you. We also likely all paid the same amount to be there. And when I am planning my vacations I have to take into consideration the climate, the crowds, the type of place I am considering visiting, and if I can actually do it. I mean, come on, you don't want me on the slopes next to you in Vail...bacause I cannot ski very well...so I do not choose that type of trip. If I am considering going somewhere that may require me speak a language that I don't, maybe I won't go. Maybe if people in chairs were required to wait in mine or have their families wait for them, they would actually have one more aspect to consider. Just like when I choose to go to the World with me and a 10 and 4 year old. the 4 year old has been 39 inches tall for about 2 years now...the 10 year old on the tall side. I make the decision that if we are to go, we may need to let the 10 year old ride a few things by himself...bcause the 4 year old cannot. Now, I know you are thinking these things don't even compare...but they do...because we are not talking about the person's disability, we are talking about badly developed procedures...and how it would not be unfair or discriminatory to make chair bound guests wait like everyone else. In fact, to the waiting guests, it sometimes seems discriminatory the other way!

[readytogo2]

im glad that disney goes the extra mile to make sure everyone can enjoy all the fun my family does . my problem with the scooters is that i can wait for a bus for 20 minutes then when one is available i lose my spot because someone on a scooter and their family of 8 jump right on. true im on vacation and in no rush. but why cant they wait in line like everyone else?

[danicafan]

I don't have any problems with anyone in a scooter or wheelchair, but just don't understand why they can't wait their turn in line just like everyone else. It is frustrating when you have been standing in line and then all of a sudden you are pushed back due to a family with a person in a scooter or wheelchair. This happened to us at a different park in SW MO earlier this month. Waited in line for 40 minutes for a show to start only to have a family with a person on a scooter be allowed to cut in front of us in line and then we had to wait for the next show.

[MNNHFLTX]

MODERATOR NOTE--

This topic has been debated from every angle and frankly, at this point, there is nowhere to go except for people to start repeating themselves. Thus the thread will be closed. Those with complaints or suggestions to Disney on how to improve their transportation system should probably do so by email or letter (for it to have any effect).