Proposed Attraction Updates Downsized???

[PECOS BILL]

I just read on another site that the proposed updates proposed for Space Mountain and another proposal to rework Fantasy Land (which till now I didn't hear anything about) are either on hold or being considerabley downsized.
Anyone have any other info? This economy is going to put a real damper on capital spending at WDW I think. I just hope that they continue with maintainece spending to keep the property in great condition.

[lockedoutlogic]

this is typical....

now is the time to go ahead and take the hit and do real improvements....

but they'll plead poverty and say that they don't have the cash to do it now...

when it's busy....they're too busy to take anything offline to do improvements.

It's the classic doublespeak in the parks.....some truth....but layers of financial maneuvering and PR excuses mixed in....

[Strmchsr]

I have heard of some projects being put on hold, but there's a lot of WDW sites out there that claim "inside" information and really spread a lot of bad rumors. (*cough* *cough* Jim Hill *cough* *cough*). The basic stance I take is unless you hear it directly from Disney take it with a grain of salt. I always appreciate how good a job Jason (Figment) does on this site of posting information not rumors.

[Polynesian Dweller]

this is typical....

now is the time to go ahead and take the hit and do real improvements....

but they'll plead poverty and say that they don't have the cash to do it now...

when it's busy....they're too busy to take anything offline to do improvements.

It's the classic doublespeak in the parks.....some truth....but layers of financial maneuvering and PR excuses mixed in....

I presume you haven't looked at the state of the economy. This is not the time to do anything. The Disney stock price has fallen rapidly in the last couple of months. Its a very easy prediction that theme park attendance will decline in the coming year (if people aren't travelling in general then they aren't travelling to Disney either). Disney is already looking forward and seeing its bookings decline. This is absolutely not the time to be spending money unless the refurbs are needed for safety reasons.

Need we also be reminded by things like the automakers. No company is safe unless it takes step to protect its self and making prudent decisions about expenditures has to be done.

[BMan62]

I presume you haven't looked at the state of the economy. This is not the time to do anything. The Disney stock price has fallen rapidly in the last couple of months. Its a very easy prediction that theme park attendance will decline in the coming year (if people aren't travelling in general then they aren't travelling to Disney either). Disney is already looking forward and seeing its bookings decline. This is absolutely not the time to be spending money unless the refurbs are needed for safety reasons.

Need we also be reminded by things like the automakers. No company is safe unless it takes step to protect its self and making prudent decisions about expenditures has to be done.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Poly -- BECAUSE of the state of the economy, a company like Disney SHOULD be doing upgrades and rehabs and additions. In this way they can help stimulate said economy and put more people back to work. It is the 'shut it down until the economy gets better' attitude that keeps the economy flagging.

Yes, the expenditures need to be prudent and monitored, but unless and until companies, like Disney, start infusing capital into the economy instead of putting it in their own platinum lined pockets, things will continue to worsen.

[lockedoutlogic]

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Poly -- BECAUSE of the state of the economy, a company like Disney SHOULD be doing upgrades and rehabs and additions. In this way they can help stimulate said economy and put more people back to work. It is the 'shut it down until the economy gets better' attitude that keeps the economy flagging.

Yes, the expenditures need to be prudent and monitored, but unless and until companies, like Disney, start infusing capital into the economy instead of putting it in their own platinum lined pockets, things will continue to worsen.

you are correct, BMAN.....

now is the time...for Disney

We're not talking about General Motors or AIG here.....disney will suffer through this bad economic time as will everyone else.....

But they will survive better than most...if not all. there will be no mass layoffs.....selling off of assets...closing of locations....

Disney is almost superhumanly stable in this respect. It's the obvious benefit of having a large low wage work staff (unlike the big 3) and high profit margins in much of their enterprises....

So now would be the time to just go ahead and throw some more money into parks.....trim other areas....cancel some of your completely terrible movie ideas....stop wasting money on things like Extreme Makeover: Home Edition....(ok...a joke....but i hate that show)

MGM and Animal Kingdom are still only 1/2 to 3/4 gates.....they can be completed for far less than the next "new gated area" idea that is constantly being thrashed around by the corporates somewhere in anaheim....

Do it......expand DHS and fill out AK.....now.....no amazing tourist crunches to deal with....no loss of revenue because nobody is being turned away from the show dump giftshops.....


to Polydweller,

I know where you're coming from. but i think you're wrong to use standard 'common sense' business logic on Disney....they operate much of the time in their own little world (no pun)

things are typically better than they seem....they always have an angle to attempt to downplay just how much money they rake from Orlando....it's staggering.

I worked in a hotel or two during the 01-03 "downtime" .....quite possibly the slowest overall time at WDW (due to the large amount of offerings that had to be filled....unlike early recessions - 74....91-92)....
We were cut hours, marginal employees were furloughed or let go, and rooms stood empty...I know what a "harsh economic time" looks like for disney....i watched it firsthand

But as i watched the numbers turn over from an operations center (doing the job of 2 or 3 by myself due to shift cuts...though it was still a piece of cake)....i became convinced that the reinvestment should have been made right then and there.....

this current financial cloud is bigger....a little more uncertain....

but Disney knows it will be fine....the clouds will subside sooner than later......the people will come back.....the bibbidi bobbiti boutique will be booked up.

They know this....a dipped stock price and a few hotels on low occupancy won't change WDW's status as a cash cow for anything more than the immediate future....but when things are grotesquely overextended (2004-2008)....the lack of forsight will be a mistake.


but i know they will not reinvest....but it's an issue of choice....not money......stockprice be damned!!!:thedolls:

[Zippy 1]

I have heard from several places that Disney is not in a good spot finicially. Just this am was said on the Today Show that 98 Disney Stores will be closing with more in 2009. I would think that they would try to increase their stability before doing any attraction updates.

[Mackflava99]

I really do think thay have stability and a high profit margin..even with this economy.

The issue i they have alot of bad ideas that they pump money into- for now, i'd leave as is and fix what you have.

Even HSM3 didnt do as well as they thought- WHY? mostly timing- it was a bad weekend due to all the crisis. Though it was still gigantic at the box office- it wasnt a MONSTER.

Disney wll work it out, things will get better. We may lose our jobs and not be able to visit as much, but it will work out.

[CaptainJessicaSparrow]

Actually, if you look at Disney's BETA rating, it's a safer investment than the rest of the market. And stock price dictates the future value of the company, not the present. Finance class, I hate you sometimes....

And because of the economy, it's true that Disney should be investing....because it's actually going to be cheaper now than in the future. We were discussing this in one of my other classes as well.

I think that they just need to be careful because a lot of what I am hearing through the grapevine is.....Pixar. Pixar, Pixar, Pixar - they want Pixar to be prominent. And the insult that John Lassetter is the modern Walt Disney. I almost died when I heard that. And there is nothing that kills faster than overmarketing.

[lockedoutlogic]

I have heard from several places that Disney is not in a good spot finicially. Just this am was said on the Today Show that 98 Disney Stores will be closing with more in 2009. I would think that they would try to increase their stability before doing any attraction updates.

closing disney stores is not really a true reflection of the disney brand as a whole....

the disney store was ruined in the late 90's with overexpansion and inferior product....

stores closing today are really nothing more than a lingering effect of that....with a poor consumer economy as the driving force that has ultimately taken them to this point....

i would like all disney stores to close....

as they are nowhere near the quality and unique experience that they were back in the early 90's.....nowhere near the selection of unique merchandise.....no animated displays in the stores.....

but that's just my opinion (not about overexpansion killing them...that's been well documented)

[badkitty]

I thought Disney didn't run the Disney stores anymore.

[lockedoutlogic]

I thought Disney didn't run the Disney stores anymore.

yea well....they outsourced operation to The Children's Place about 2 years ago....

then...I believe....bought it back from them last year.....

they can't figure out what to do.

the problem is that the Disney stores are really, really bad

Tacky generic product....and way too much emphasis on HSM and Hannah Montana with a blatant disregard to the classics....

I know why they do it....but it just hasn't felt right for about 10 years....

Same as in the parks.....the merchandise has been made uniform across the properties and it just kinda makes buying at Disney less exciting....

but disney stores have been really bad for a longtime

[KylesMom]

In the last week, I've been wondering about the Space Mountain issue myself. I've been prepping DH & DS for the past TWO years that it's probably going to be down - but if no announcements are forthcoming soon about a long closure, I'm going to guess that the refurb is being tabled . . . I know it was "rumored" to go down in early '09 and be down most of the year.

[brownie]

Yes, it would make sense from a current cost versus future cost standpoint to invest more in capital improvement right now. Not knowing how bad things will get nor for how long, I think the more prudent course would be to scale back on capital improvement. The cash you have now may be needed later; you probably don't want it tied up in capital improvement projects that aren't going to add to the bottom line in the short-term.

[lockedoutlogic]

Yes, it would make sense from a current cost versus future cost standpoint to invest more in capital improvement right now. Not knowing how bad things will get nor for how long, I think the more prudent course would be to scale back on capital improvement. The cash you have now may be needed later; you probably don't want it tied up in capital improvement projects that aren't going to add to the bottom line in the short-term.


you make perfect sense....

but again....it's disney...they're in a little different scenario....

To plead poverty in economic scalebacks is EXACTLY why Disney attempts to slap a "New" tag on rides and shows that are 3 years old....
they've lost Walt Disney's desire to put the pedal to the floor and keep reinventing.

Granted....that change happened long ago. Disney is and has been run by suits since 1984....but if they had a little more vision: they could completely revamp areas that are poorly constructed or in need of reinvestment...

and then one of two things will happen (or more likely...both):

1. Those that otherwise are trimming their belts will make the extra effort to travel during the downtime to ride the new ride....stabilizing the loss to a certain extent

2. In a few years (and it will probably be at least 3) when the economy goes back on the upswing....then all the lemmings that look at returning to the promised land will see all this new stuff and say, "wow...they got alot of new stufff".....
more visits, longer visits, more food, more plushies, more money...yadayadayada

[DisneyNut2005]

I have heard of some projects being put on hold, but there's a lot of WDW sites out there that claim "inside" information and really spread a lot of bad rumors. (*cough* *cough* Jim Hill *cough* *cough*).

Don't forget *cough, cough* Al Lutz *cough, cough*. He's even worse than Jim Hill, IMO.

[Mad About Mickey]

Actually improvements are going to become a very wise investment in the next few years if the economy remains stagnant. There are three main components of any project; land, materials, and labor. Obviously Disney has the land and we can ignore its impact. As we can all see with gas prices, lessened demand is dropping prices. The same is true in the construction industry. Material and labor prices will drop in a bad economy and construction firms will lower their profit margins to secure work if they want to survive the downturn. A lot of commerical development is being put on hold as the economy worsens and Disney would be wise to take advantage of the situation. There will be no better time to invest in construction projects then the opportunity they will have in the next few years.

[Crow]

If you build it they will come.
im not planning on going to WDW in 09, mainly because of the cutbacks on things & lack of new (meaning something decent not AMerican Idol:ack:)
now the rehabs of POC & HM were decent.
Its time for me to visit other places....where it will seem "new" to me.
and with the economy Disney should lead the way & pump some back in. I think they are a long way from being in bad shape like other companies recently.

[Ian]

Its time for me to visit other places....where it will seem "new" to me.
and with the economy Disney should lead the way & pump some back in. I think they are a long way from being in bad shape like other companies recently.Us to. Next year, we're actually going on our first non-Disney vacation since the kids were born.

In fact, we're most likely only going to Disney once next year and that's only because BLT is opening and we want to be there for it. This will be the first time since like 1997 that we haven't gone to WDW multiple times in one year.

And it's got nothing to do with the economy or cutting back. It's just "been there/done that/looking for something new." Disney hasn't really given us any reason to come back next year, I don't like this new celebration, and prices keep going up.

I don't mean to say we're soured on WDW ... I mean heck we just bought 200 new points at BLT ... but we are going to take a little time to look around and do other stuff and wait until Disney maybe brings us something new and exciting.

[DisneyNut2005]

...and prices keep going up.

Wrong! Prices are going down right now, due to our terrible economy.

And discounted offers are really kicking into gear right now as well, which is always a good thing.

[BMan62]

Wrong! Prices are going down right now, due to our terrible economy.

And discounted offers are really kicking into gear right now as well, which is always a good thing.

I believe Ian was referring to DISNEY prices, which have been on the increase even with an economic downturn.

WDW Single day park ticket: Up
WDW Room rates: Up
Disney/WDW Souvenir costs: Up
Food at WDW restaurants: Up

[Ian]

Prices and discounts are two different things. Overall, the cost of a Disney vacation, even with current discounts, is significantly more expensive than it was even five years ago.

Post-9/11 they ran the same 7 for 4 special, but guess what? The 4 was cheaper then than the 4 is now, ergo things have gotten more expensive.

[Tekneek]

It is poor management, IMO. When they have been raising ticket prices and room rates twice a year recently, they should have been setting some of that money aside to keep things going when the inevitable bust came. That would have demonstrated some real foresight that would have seen Disney come out the other end of this much stronger than they entered it. However, as has been the case with Disney for several years now, they tend to operate just like all the other big corporations.

[CaptainJessicaSparrow]

I can also confirm that the prices are going up at Disney. I know all of the prices for my favorite food items and 90% of it went up.

Kaki-Gori: $2.25 -> $3.75
Grey Goose/Grand Marnier: $8 -> $9
Margarita: $8 -> $9
Teriyaki Chicken: $6.95 -> $7.95

[DisneyFanaticDargon]

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Poly -- BECAUSE of the state of the economy, a company like Disney SHOULD be doing upgrades and rehabs and additions. In this way they can help stimulate said economy and put more people back to work. It is the 'shut it down until the economy gets better' attitude that keeps the economy flagging.

This is only true in the sense that it creates jobs for the people working on the updates. Regardless of if the new things get made, if people can't afford to go to Disney now, they're not going to magically have enough money to go if a new attraction opens. If they're having to tighten their belts so much to make ends meet they can't go, then nothing Disney does is going to directly change that fact. All they'll do by building new attractions right now is put themselves into a financial hole with not nearly enough revenue coming in to pull themselves out of it.

[DisneyWFan]

I have heard from several places that Disney is not in a good spot finicially. Just this am was said on the Today Show that 98 Disney Stores will be closing with more in 2009. I would think that they would try to increase their stability before doing any attraction updates.


Disney Stores are not owned by Disney anymore they were sold to the childrens place a couple of years ago. Disney only supplies the merch. They also run the online store

[CaptainJessicaSparrow]

Disney Stores are not owned by Disney anymore they were sold to the childrens place a couple of years ago. Disney only supplies the merch. They also run the online store

Actually, Disney bought them back earlier this year. They are closing a lot of them because they don't want the cost of running them. However, it is a different branch of the company than the Walt Disney Parks Merchandise, which is of course, the merchandise for WDW and DL.

[princessgirls]

Us to. Next year, we're actually going on our first non-Disney vacation since the kids were born.

In fact, we're most likely only going to Disney once next year and that's only because BLT is opening and we want to be there for it. This will be the first time since like 1997 that we haven't gone to WDW multiple times in one year.

And it's got nothing to do with the economy or cutting back. It's just "been there/done that/looking for something new." Disney hasn't really given us any reason to come back next year, I don't like this new celebration, and prices keep going up.

I don't mean to say we're soured on WDW ... I mean heck we just bought 200 new points at BLT ... but we are going to take a little time to look around and do other stuff and wait until Disney maybe brings us something new and exciting.

Ian~
You have by all means given your share of your hard earned dollars to Disney! No need to feel bad!

We do other vacations and they are good too.

We'll see where this wild economic ride takes people. Disney will not be immune. At least after 9/11, things rebounded. We went to Florida in October 2001. It was scary empty and Disney cut ticket prices in half to get people in the door. I do believe though by early 2002 things started picking up.
Interesting stuff.
Julie