Disney sends fired worker home to Botswana

[TheRustyScupper]

Disney sends fired worker home to Botswana
Scott Powers | Sentinel Staff Writer
September 5, 2008

Sometime this morning, Odirile "Jojo" Rammoni will arrive in Johannesburg, South Africa, then board a plane for the fourth and final leg of his 9,000-mile, 24-hour journey home to the African country of Botswana.

He would rather be at Walt Disney World, where he had worked as a cultural representative of his country since March. Rammoni wanted to defend himself against allegations that he improperly touched a female co-worker's breast during a publicity photo shoot in Disney's Animal Kingdom in July.

After an internal investigation, Disney fired him Aug. 28. Then, while he and his union were pursuing a labor grievance to fight the allegations and seek a reinstatement, Disney arranged a flight home for him instead.

Whether or not Rammoni, 25, is guilty as accused of sexual harassment, his experience offers a glimpse into the control that employers such as Disney can exercise in dealing with problems involving the international workers brought to Central Florida on work visas.


NOTE: There has been no finding or innocence or guilt. Just a presumption on behalf of the managers at Disney.

[3Cabsfan]

I've found in my 20+ years with the company that many things are not revealed during/after investigations. All of those times, Disney had very good reason to act the way they did. I know alot of cast members with alot of time in that have never had any problems with being treated unfairly by the company. Is Disney perfect? No. No company is. But I would imagine they knew exactly what they were doing with this cultural rep and had a very good reason to send him home. Stop and think for a second...if he was guilty-Disney did the right thing. If he was COMPLETELY innocent, then they made a mistake and he went home early. He's not a citizen of the U.S. and Disney owes him nothing.

[AnnetteFan]

Wait so Disney only "owes" employees something if they're U.S. citizens? Hm, doesn't make much sense for a company that so heavily relies on cultural representatives. Of course Disney owes him something, if he was a reliable employee they owe him plenty.

[1DisneyNut]

AnnettteFan, you are taking 3Cabsfan's statement completely out of context. He/she said "He's not a citizen of the U.S. and Disney owes him nothing." The important part being "and". In this context and is used the same as also not because. I would like to add that once the paycheck is cashed and other contractual agreements are met neither party "owes" either anything. If this were true then when business is bad the employee should work overtime for free to help the company make ends meet as well as give the employees a cut when business is booming but we all know which side of this coin would cause an uproar. lol I am sure they made the right decision sending him home. Hypothetically lets say they didn't send him home and in six months he did it again. What would happen? There would be a huge lawsuit and everyone would be on here asking why they didn't send him home after the first incident. There is no need to have a liability walking around on the payroll everyday.

[AnnetteFan]

But no one has proved he actually did anything wrong yet so how can you be sure they did the right thing? What if it was a misunderstanding? Everyone was very adamant that Tigger be given the chance to prove himself so why is it different in this case? We're giving Disney a lot of credit by just assuming that he is guilty. Obviously if he was then it would make perfect sense to send him home but to not give him the chance to have union representation? Sounds like jumping the gun.

[big blue and hairy]

Unfortunatley, we also have no idea how accurate or well-researched the Sentinal article is, so basically, we have no clue what happened.

Although I don't know what if anything union changes here, I do know if you're here an a work visa and you quit or are fired, you have to go back to your country, period. Disney could be risking their visa program by not sending him home.

:sulley:

[A Big Kid]

But no one has proved he actually did anything wrong yet so how can you be sure they did the right thing? What if it was a misunderstanding? Everyone was very adamant that Tigger be given the chance to prove himself so why is it different in this case? We're giving Disney a lot of credit by just assuming that he is guilty. Obviously if he was then it would make perfect sense to send him home but to not give him the chance to have union representation? Sounds like jumping the gun.

Disney does not have to wait unit a court of law determines guilt or innocence or (in a civil trial) liability.

Based upon their own internal investigation, they can make their own finding.

[TheRustyScupper]

[B]

Disney does not have to wait unit a court of law determines guilt or innocence or (in a civil trial) liability.

Based upon their own internal investigation, they can make their own finding.


1) Sure.
2) But, the union grievance wasn't even settled yet.
3) The way the article was written, this was done at Step-1 of the greivance procedure.
4) Thus, the investigation wasn't truly finished.

[big blue and hairy]

3) The way the article was written, this was done at Step-1 of the greivance procedure.The operative phrase....The way the article was written... what really happened, we don't know. Will there be a follow up? Only if it's something that'll get people fired up. If it turns out Disney was completely in the right about this situation, it's likely you'll hear nothing more about it.

:sulley:

[1DisneyNut]

I really could care less what the union is doing. They could drag this out for months as they often do. They do the same thing when someone is fired for failing a drug test and files a grievance with the union and that just burns me up. If the company determined from its findings he should be fired and sent home, so be it. The union isn't even part of the equation as far as I'm concerned.

[brownie]

Considering that it happened during a photo shoot, they may some good evidence that they were able to act on. It's too bad, and you hope they did do a proper investigation before sending him home.

[GrumpyFan]

This is a potentially hot topic, and dangerous too. I would speculate that what happened here is Disney made a good faith gesture to the guy. Consider, if he stayed here and fought it (guilty or not), he would probably have no way of earning money, and it could go on for months. IF he lost, and in reality it's his word against hers, he would be stuck here with no money, and an illegal citizen, in which case, I think he would have been either put in jail or deported.

It really sounds as if Disney did the guy a favor. It's an unfortunate event, and it appears that justice might not have properly served, but in the end, it's really a matter that's best left between those involved and nobody else.

[Figaro]

Similar thing happens to any ICP intern. If they are terminated, they have I think 24-48 hours to exit the country...

[lockedoutlogic]

Disney college/ international students are basically chattle that they "procure" at sub minimum wage rates....

....details at 11

[big blue and hairy]

Disney college/ international students are basically chattle that they "procure" at sub minimum wage rates....

....details at 11
Don't make ridiculous statements that have no basis in fact. They are not paying sub-minimum wages, and they are here because they want to be.

From my wife's experience as an HRD, the vast majority of folks who worked at WDW refer to it as the best job they ever had. Granted, not the most lucrative, but their favorite job.

:sulley:

[Ed]

Let's also remember that WDW may have had other complaints against the same person (which they would/could not divulge due to confidentiality/privacy reasons), and this incident became "the straw that broke the camel's back".

[BrerSchultzy]

Disney college/ international students are basically chattle that they "procure" at sub minimum wage rates....

....details at 11


Don't make ridiculous statements that have no basis in fact. They are not paying sub-minimum wages, and they are here because they want to be.



I think he was poking fun at the article itself, not at Disney. Look at it as a phony "headline"....

[Figaro]

Don't make ridiculous statements that have no basis in fact. They are not paying sub-minimum wages, and they are here because they want to be.

From my wife's experience as an HRD, the vast majority of folks who worked at WDW refer to it as the best job they ever had. Granted, not the most lucrative, but their favorite job.

:sulley:

I have to back that statement 100%. The pay isn't the best, and we all know that, but we work for Disney because we enjoy it. The office, the friends/family we make, it makes it all worth it. Yes, some have second jobs, but we all find ways to make it work to do something we enjoy. Back on topic though... CMs do get disciplined in the form of written reprimands, and we have 3 then we're gone, in some cases, 2. It's very possible he could have gotten a reprimand or two.

[Jasper]

I was a Human Resource Manager for 15 years at both a VERY large international company and a medium size U.S. only company. Based on my experiences as the person responsible for making decisions such as this I can almost guarantee you that there is more to the story than was reported here. That can be for a variety of reasons.

Maybe it was the union that fed the story to the paper. In that case you know that union will make the employee look like a saint. Maybe Disney just didn't release all the information about the case because every company in the country considers such details as confidential unless either the employee reveals it or it comes out in a court case. Or perhaps the writer had some axe to grind with Disney. Regardless of the reason, I am QUITE confident that this news article represents only a small part of what went on.

[1DisneyNut]

Maybe it was the union that fed the story to the paper. In that case you know that union will make the employee look like a saint.
This is a very good point. We don't even know the source of the story and this very well could be the case.

[big blue and hairy]

Maybe it was the union that fed the story to the paper. In that case you know that union will make the employee look like a saint.
Well...duh (that's pointed at myself, not you). I don't know why I didn't think of that.

:sulley:

[lockedoutlogic]

Ok.....this one is not worth getting into too deeply in a "family" environment such as this board....

But....ask yourself a couple of questions:

If you pay somebody federal minimum....guarantee them only 32 hours....REQUIRE that they pay weekly rent payments for housing that is provided by the employer and is deducted from pay - no exceptions

what do you have?



I know that many if not "most" that work on the college program and international programs say it was the greatest experience they ever had.....

and if you have personal experience with this YOU KNOW WHY :blush:

But you also know how it's set up....it's not like a summer job for the college kids....its basically an expensive prolonged wild and free vacation....which the parents finance the vast majority of the time.

The internationals (i worked with many) were the more affluent and economically equipped individuals that the recruiters could find in respective countries-whenever possible....again.....the pay not being much of an issue.

And even the premise....internship credit....real life experience....is a facade.

There is no education component whatsoever....particularly to the college programmers.....

Again....if you have any experience you know what i'm talking about.

Because the kids have fun.....doesn't really change the reality of what is going on....

It is cheap, mass labor that disney counts on to fill out there ranks at practically no cost (i'll leave the sweet deal they got from the Clinton era education bills out of it) whatsoever.....but i've said enough

[big blue and hairy]

Ok.....this one is not worth getting into too deeply in a "family" environment such as this board....

But....ask yourself a couple of questions:

If you pay somebody federal minimum....guarantee them only 32 hours....REQUIRE that they pay weekly rent payments for housing that is provided by the employer and is deducted from pay - no exceptions

what do you have? Aside from the fact that Disney would be paying Florida minimum at least, you would have basically the same college program that any other hotel who wants an international component in their hotel. So, what's your point?


:sulley:

[lockedoutlogic]

Aside from the fact that Disney would be paying Florida minimum at least, you would have basically the same college program that any other hotel who wants an international component in their hotel. So, what's your point?


:sulley:

my point is that they are in fact being paid below minimum wage rate when you factor in the mandatory housing fees...

If they were to provide the housing....which is really the decent thing to do.....then i would have very little quams with the programs....but they don't....

or they could provide freedom of choice...which of course they do not

so in essence...you have young "adults" (and i use that term liberally) thousands of miles away from home with what might amount to not enough cash in their pockets to buy sufficient food....let alone anything else.

They give you the numbers when you accept....i'm not exaggerating here.

So i'm not saying anyone is forced into it....they do it willingly.....but it weeds out many potential individuals because they can't financially swing it.....

And as i stated before.....it's a pretty well know "secret" why everyone has the time of their lives......

right?

And in most ways they are simply commodities.....very cheap (federally subsidized) in the case of the college program.....and doing tasks that don't have any longterm value to the student....

or are you differing from my assessment that picking up litter from Epcot and parking cars in the MGM parking lot is somehow more valuable and noble than i'm giving it credit for?

[kakn7294]

If I can get back to the original post, from the brief research I did on the internet, I'm going to assume he was here on an H-2B Visa. Persons working in the US under that type of Visa who are fired from their jobs have 10 days to either find a new job or return to their home country at the reasonable expense of their former employer. Disney was only following the letter of the law on this matter by sending him home after firing him regardless of the fact that this is pending a union investigation.

[big blue and hairy]

my point is that they are in fact being paid below minimum wage rate when you factor in the mandatory housing fees...

If they were to provide the housing....which is really the decent thing to do.....then i would have very little quams with the programs....but they don't....

or they could provide freedom of choice...which of course they do not

so in essence...you have young "adults" (and i use that term liberally) thousands of miles away from home with what might amount to not enough cash in their pockets to buy sufficient food....let alone anything else.

They give you the numbers when you accept....i'm not exaggerating here.

So i'm not saying anyone is forced into it....they do it willingly.....but it weeds out many potential individuals because they can't financially swing it.....

And as i stated before.....it's a pretty well know "secret" why everyone has the time of their lives......

right?

And in most ways they are simply commodities.....very cheap (federally subsidized) in the case of the college program.....and doing tasks that don't have any longterm value to the student....

or are you differing from my assessment that picking up litter from Epcot and parking cars in the MGM parking lot is somehow more valuable and noble than i'm giving it credit for? My differing comes from one thing. The fact that you make it sound like Disney is doing something awful that only they do. The pay and housing is a part of any college program at resorts, whether it's Disney, Four Sesons, or anyone else. That was my point last post, and that's my point this post.

And to use one of your comments, to say that some one is being paid below minimunm wage when you factor in housing is well...silly. Do you expect them to pitch a tent?

:sulley:

[lockedoutlogic]

My differing comes from one thing. The fact that you make it sound like Disney is doing something awful that only they do. The pay and housing is a part of any college program at resorts, whether it's Disney, Four Sesons, or anyone else. That was my point last post, and that's my point this post.

And to use one of your comments, to say that some one is being paid below minimunm wage when you factor in housing is well...silly. Do you expect them to pitch a tent?

:sulley:

Oh...I'm not calling Disney evil in any way here....or saying they operate more to their advantage than similar programs elsewhere....

I'm saying it's cheap, mass produced labor that provides little in the way of longterm education....

I speak mainly of the college program.....the international program basically is what it is....

[Polynesian Dweller]

If I can get back to the original post, from the brief research I did on the internet, I'm going to assume he was here on an H-2B Visa. Persons working in the US under that type of Visa who are fired from their jobs have 10 days to either find a new job or return to their home country at the reasonable expense of their former employer. Disney was only following the letter of the law on this matter by sending him home after firing him regardless of the fact that this is pending a union investigation.
Thanks Kathy for trying to put this back to the OP. Maybe those who want to debate about Disney's quality as an employer could start another thread to fight that out in and let this one get back on topic.

There has been some interesting material in this thread including your post that illuminates the law a bit more for us. I also think one of the best was about the workings of HR departments. I have to agree with my past experience in management that there is undoubtedly a lot more that can't be shared by the employer. Privacy laws prevent the employer from revealing information. Unions knowing that the employers hands are tied often try to pressure the employer by releasing things to the media they know the employer cannot fully respond to without breaking the law. The employer is then made out to be nasty without a means of response. Its a very standard negotiating practice.

[lockedoutlogic]

Thanks Kathy for trying to put this back to the OP. Maybe those who want to debate about Disney's quality as an employer could start another thread to fight that out in and let this one get back on topic.

There has been some interesting material in this thread including your post that illuminates the law a bit more for us. I also think one of the best was about the workings of HR departments. I have to agree with my past experience in management that there is undoubtedly a lot more that can't be shared by the employer. Privacy laws prevent the employer from revealing information. Unions knowing that the employers hands are tied often try to pressure the employer by releasing things to the media they know the employer cannot fully respond to without breaking the law. The employer is then made out to be nasty without a means of response. Its a very standard negotiating practice.


Ok...back to the original thread....

whether or not the claims were valid and any sort of due process that should be followed is irrelevant.

Disney will summarily and often times arbitrarily dismiss a college or international program member in the blink of an eye.

In the case of an IP....they are following the rules by shipping him out per US immigration laws within...i believe...24 hours.

So really the only question here was if the situation was handled properly.....and that we'll never know....as it is a shut case, the person has been removed....

the unions have zero power....so they will let it go as well....

This is a dead story

[3Cabsfan]

1Disneynut knew exactly what I was saying. The company owes everyone of their cast members a paycheck for work that is performed. I can guarantee you there is more to this story than has been let out to the public. Disney is simply taking actions against someone they believe did wrong. He/she comes to work for the company, performs the work and gets paid. On top of that, Disney offers great benefits. Now the person may claim he/she is innocent, Disney investigates and then takes action. So many times we see things from the outside and simply assume the company is wrong because they are the company and not an individual. Six months down the road, something happens again and Disney is the one that is run up the flagpole....I'm sure this person was completely innocent, Disney was just looking for a reason to send them home, they made up this story and paid someone to make the accusation, and then sent him home. Happens all the time. No way this person was guilty Annettefan, you are probably right.

[Ed]

....I'm sure this person was completely innocent, Disney was just looking for a reason to send them home, they made up this story and paid someone to make the accusation, and then sent him home. Happens all the time. No way this person was guilty Annettefan, you are probably right.

You don't REALLY believe that, do you? :shrug:

That's a ridiculously outrageous accusation, and I'd sure like to see some factual evidence that it "happens all the time".

Disney may not be the world's most benevolent employer, but if there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty about them, they're not STUPID. :nono:

[kakn7294]

I'm sure this person was completely innocent, Disney was just looking for a reason to send them home, they made up this story and paid someone to make the accusation, and then sent him home. Happens all the time. No way this person was guilty Annettefan, you are probably right.You are being sarcastic, right?

[Crow]

had to read this as thats where my ex is from......and shes a CM

[AnnetteFan]

1Disneynut knew exactly what I was saying. The company owes everyone of their cast members a paycheck for work that is performed. I can guarantee you there is more to this story than has been let out to the public. Disney is simply taking actions against someone they believe did wrong. He/she comes to work for the company, performs the work and gets paid. On top of that, Disney offers great benefits. Now the person may claim he/she is innocent, Disney investigates and then takes action. So many times we see things from the outside and simply assume the company is wrong because they are the company and not an individual. Six months down the road, something happens again and Disney is the one that is run up the flagpole....I'm sure this person was completely innocent, Disney was just looking for a reason to send them home, they made up this story and paid someone to make the accusation, and then sent him home. Happens all the time. No way this person was guilty Annettefan, you are probably right.

I'm not saying Disney had it out for him or anything like that, I'm just saying that this is a sticky situation that seems to be very he said she said and it doesn't seem like this particular CM was given much chance to back himself up. Disney does have a tendency to jump the gun when it comes to terminations, especially in situations where they feel like they're at risk of of some kind of scandel. Which is understandable and all, but there have been plenty of times they've had to reinstate CM's after an initial termination because the CM was found not to be at fault. I think the CM should get the same benefit of the doubt that everyone is willing to give Disney as a company.

[gueli]

OK, so there is an accusation.
none of us were there so we can only speculate- maybe he touched her, maybe it was accidental, maybe someone else saw it happen, and maybe just maybe there is photographic proof.
Company investigates- decides behavior was inappropriate even if it was an accident. The company needs to protect itself- if it does nothing it could face a sexual harrasment lawsuit, or if he does anything else they are liable.
now the fun, he files a gievance with the union. It is the unions job to protect him. It does not make the union right or wrong - they are doing their job.
The company offers him a ticket home- if he manages to take another job, the way i read the post by kakn7294- then wdw is no longer responsible for the transportation home- so what is the best course for him ? Do we know if he could have delayed that flight, would he have had a place to stay (no longer a WDW employee, WDW is not going to let him stay in employee/student housing). Did he take the ticket and go home because it was the best situation for him ?
WDW has to cover their corporate buts.
The union has to protect its workers.
The male former employee - has little choices, but probably choose the best one for him- the ticket home. maybe it is not what he wants, but it probably is the best for him.
It does not make WDW the bad guy, & the union has no choice- they try their hardest- but their member is no longer in the country.
The best thing the union could do is to negotiate into their next contract a way to avoid the employee being shipped home before a quick arbitration/grievence procedure is compleated.


Another comment- you cant factor in housing costs (even if manditory) into someones wage to declare that they are making below minimum. technically once you hit taxes, it is below minimum....its a bad argument.
Again it is something that a UNION would have to negotiate for (that is the amount of the starting salary for students/exchanges/foreign people (or those covered by this)

[casey@bat]

Is Florida a "Fire at Will" state? Georgia is. I think this means you can fire someone without giving a reason why. So if Florida is, then they can just say "bye, bye" and not give you a reason. I don't know if the union affects this or not.

[goofgal]

Is I think this means you can fire someone without giving a reason why.

This is not exactly true. There are federal statutes concerning discrimination. The penalties are severe, and leave the employer open to huge jury awards if there is even a WHIFF that the termination was due to race, sex, age, national origin, or any other protected reason.

For instance, I am a Maryland state employee and am considered "at will" (in other words I don't get the job protections that most state employees get). In theory this means I can be let go at any time with no reason. However, in practice, our HR department will not let any manager terminate an employee without substantial written documentation of the issues, verbal warnings, written warnings (signed by the employee), etc. Obviously if the situation was egregious (threatening people, etc.) these can slide a bit, but for the most part, it's documentation, documentation, documentation.

[3Cabsfan]

Sorry for the confusion, I was being sarcastic. I'll be the first to admit Disney is not a perfect company, but they are a great company to work for! So many complain, but stay on. I don't get it.