Cinderella, Others Arrested in Disneyland Labor Protest

[Ian]

ANAHEIM, California (AP) -- Cinderella, Snow White, Tinkerbell and other fictional fixtures of modern-day childhood were handcuffed, frisked and loaded into police vans Thursday at the culmination of a labor protest that brought a touch of reality to the Happiest Place on Earth.

The arrest of the 32 protesters, many of whom wore costumes representing famous Disney characters, came at the end of an hour-long march to Disneyland's gates from one of three Disney-owned hotels at the center of a labor dispute.

Those who were arrested sat in a circle on a busy intersection outside the park holding hands until they were placed in plastic handcuffs and led to two police vans while hundreds of hotel workers cheered and chanted.

The protesters were arrested on a misdemeanor count of failure to obey a police officer and two traffic infractions, said Sgt. Rick Martinez of the Anaheim police. They were cited and released, Sgt. Chris Schneider said.

Bewildered tourists in Disney T-shirts and caps, some pushing strollers, filed past the commotion and gawked at the costumed picketers getting hauled away. The protest shut down a major thoroughfare outside Disneyland and California Adventure for nearly an hour.

"It's changing my opinion of Disneyland," said tourist Amanda Kosato, who was visiting from north of Melbourne, Australia. "Taking away entitlements stinks."

The dispute involves about 2,300 maids, bell hops, cooks and dishwashers at three Disney-owned hotels: the Paradise Pier, the Grand Californian and the Disneyland Hotel.

The workers' contract expired in February and their union says Disney's latest proposal makes health care unaffordable for hundreds of employees and creates an unfair two-tier wage system. The union also says Disney wants to create a new category of part-time employees who would receive greatly reduced benefits.

"The other hotels around the area all have health care that is provided by the boss and have been able to get wage increases," said Ada Briceno, president of Unite Here Local 681, which represents the workers.

"At the other hotels in the same classification, for the same work, the workers get paid $2 to $3 an hour more."

Disney spokeswoman Lisa Haines said Disney and the union are in negotiations and nothing has been finalized. She said workers have protested 14 times but sat down to negotiate only 11 times in the past six months.

"Clearly we're disappointed that Unite Here Local 681 has spent more time protesting," she said. "Publicity stunts are not productive and are extremely disruptive to the resort district."

Before the arrests, the picketers marched and chanted outside Paradise Pier, holding signs that read, "Disney is unfaithful," and "Mickey, shame on you." They were joined by community activists and religious leaders from local churches.

Luz Vasquez, who works in the bakery at Disneyland Hotel, said she can't afford to lose many of her benefits. She said it's already hard to care for her three grandchildren and aging mother while earning $14.32 an hour.

"Disneyland is being unfair with us because we're fighting for our health care and they're trying to take it away," said Vasquez, 45. "They're trying to cut our hours and take away our seniority."

Co-worker Diane Dominguez, 50, said she was worried about losing health care because of the heavy labor involved in lifting mattresses, moving furniture and making dozens of beds a day. She also said rising prices and the cost of gas were eating into her salary of $11.11 an hour.

"The most important is health care. We need that and they want to take it away," she said.

At the heart of the issue is a free health care plan that has been provided to Disney hotel workers through a trust fund that Disney and other unionized hotels in the area pay into.

Briceno said that in exchange for the free medical plan, union members agreed in previous contracts to a lower wage for hotel workers in the first three years of their employment.

But Disney now wants to eliminate the free health plan for new hires and wants to create a new class of workers who put in less than 30 hours a week, said Briceno. Those part-time workers would receive no sick or vacation pay and not be given holidays, she said.

The company also wants to increase the number of hours full-time employees must work before qualifying for the health plan, she said.

"At the end of the day what it means is that workers are going to be priced out of health care," she said.

Haines said the majority of other employees at Disneyland pay for a share of their health plan, even though the resort shoulders about 75 percent of the overall cost. She said it's important to negotiate a contract that's fair to those other unions, too.

"We do remain hopeful that we can reach an agreement that's both fair and equitable, providing that union leadership is reasonable and realistic in its approach," Haines said.

[Ian]

"It's changing my opinion of Disneyland," said tourist Amanda Kosato, who was visiting from north of Melbourne, Australia. "Taking away entitlements stinks."I'm not sure what this woman means "entitlements." These are not "entitlements", they're employee benefits which can be changed/modified/withdrawn at any time.


"The other hotels around the area all have health care that is provided by the boss and have been able to get wage increases," said Ada Briceno, president of Unite Here Local 681, which represents the workers.

"At the other hotels in the same classification, for the same work, the workers get paid $2 to $3 an hour more."Well then this begs the question ... why don't these people go work "at the other hotels in the same classification?"

This is America ... freedom of choice. If you don't like where you're working, go get another job. There must be some intangible benefit that was the impetus for these people working for Disney. If it reaches a point where the benefits no longer outweigh the negatives, then it's time to leave. Plain and simple.

[Marker]

I'm not disagreeing with you (believe it or not).

But I did notice that the quote about "entitlements" came from someone from Australia, perhaps the use of the word "entitlements" instead of "benefits" is more a vocabulary difference? Just a thought.

[NJGIRL]

I don't blame these people for being angry. It seems to me that they agreed to take less money in wages for the first 3 years of employment in order to keep health insurance benefits and now that Disney can pay the cheaper wages they are trying to wiggle out of paying their health insurance.

It's true that they can TRY to find a job elsewhere but with the economy the way it is that may not be possible.

I look at it this way. If my employer tried to take away what was promised to me I would feel the same way these people do.

[Stich8818]

" its' a small jail after all..its a small jail after all"....

I agree with Ian..If you dont like the job..move on to another one..If I am not mistaken...Yeah these other places pay 2 to 3 dollars more an hour, But do they also get tips also?. Cause I know most of us pay our mousekeeping tips.

[Tekneek]

I don't have a problem with labor unions, since we know that the business world is not beyond their own version of collective bargaining (the buying of lobbyists proceeding to the buying of votes in government) to shape things the way they would like it to be.

It should shape opinions of Disney. Either positively if you think this is the proper way to do things, or negatively if you disagree with it. The same goes for the union as well.

I am in favor of an open market. In order for that market to work, the market needs to be educated. Putting this situation in front of the public educates the market and they can make a more informed decision on what they do with their time and money. That cannot be a bad thing, ultimately.

[tinklover]

Very well said Ian , I have to totally agree with you. :thumbsup:

[Jasper]

I understand and support the right of labor to picket and protest decisions made by their employer. However, I think these people were way over the line in wearing Disney character costumes during the protest. Yes, adults like most of us here can easily understand the difference between a Cinderella character we see in a park vs. the Wal-mart version that I am sure these people wore.

However, can you imagine what a young child of say about 4-6 years of age is going to be thinking when they were told by their parent that they are going to Disneyland to see these characters and then get there only to see Cinderella being handcuffed and placed in a police wagon? Personally I think this was in VERY poor taste and really lowers my opinion of those protesters and their union and certainly makes me very unsympathetic to their cause!

[Tekneek]

Personally I think this was in VERY poor taste and really lowers my opinion of those protesters and their union and certainly makes me very unsympathetic to their cause!

That's the risk they were taking. You are more informed than you were before, though, which is the bigger point. They will gain some support, and potentially lose some, but the market becomes more informed and in that way the market wins. The more information that hits the streets, as opposed to staying private, the better it is for the rest of us.

[Ian]

I have no love for labor unions, but I do support these people's right to protest, gather, speak out ... whatever. I don't think they should have worn Disney costumes while doing it, but that's more a personal opinion than anything else.

But labor unions in general have actually done far more harm for American workers in recent years than they have good. They had a utility at one point in history, but in recent decades they've served only to drive a permanent wedge in between employers and employees.

It was the constantly increasing demands of the labor unions that changed employers' view of their employees from "a family" to "human resources."

The bottom line is, a union exists to continue to try to get more and more for their people (often in the face of all logic and reason ... see UAW or any of the airline unions). But truth is, washing laundry or cleaning tables is only worth so much. If you want more you have to improve yourself and earn more. That's the way a free market economy works. You can't expect to be paid $30 an hour, with free health care, for bussing tables. It isn't going to happen (nor should it).

I should also mention that virutally no one (outside of the Federal government ;) ) gets free health care anymore. It's just not economically feasible.

[Jasper]

That's the risk they were taking. You are more informed than you were before, though, which is the bigger point. They will gain some support, and potentially lose some, but the market becomes more informed and in that way the market wins. The more information that hits the streets, as opposed to staying private, the better it is for the rest of us.

I am not sure I entirely agree with your thoughts. Because of my high level of repulsion at the tactics used by these people I tuned out the rest of their message and can't honestly tell you what their complaint is with the Disney Company. If I am similar to many others than their tactic may have done more harm then good.

(Please understand that I am only talking about how this type of thing impacts me, I don't know how others may react.)

[SteveL]

.

I should also mention that virutally no one (outside of the Federal government ;) ) gets free health care anymore. It's just not economically feasible.


I think you would be surprised at how many people still get free health care as an employment benefit.

[Faver]

I agree with Ian...

I have worked for two large U.S. insurance companies, and as an employee you'd assume we'd get affordable coverage, better coverage.... NO WAY.

The employees of these large insurance companies, get worse coverage and are paying more for this poor coverage. But the employees were glad to be offered insurance in general.

I think the cast members in CA, need to take another look at this. Other people have it a lot rougher.

[BelleCiavo]

I'm confused, are these changes only for new hires? The article seems to point out that the new category of part-time employees who would receive greatly reduced benefits are new hires only, is that the case?

[NJGIRL]

I should also mention that virutally no one (outside of the Federal government ;) ) gets free health care anymore. It's just not economically feasible.

The companies that I have worked for have always given their employees free heath care and most people I know have free health care from their employers.

I can't disagree with you more on your views of unions (which is a whole other discussion). Unions exist so employees get a fair shake from their employers. Disney is a multibillion dollar company and I think that they can afford to give their employees health care.

Did anyone see the study that came out last week that said 40% of companies don't pay any taxes? These big businesses will do anything to make more money for themselves no matter who they cheat. Employees must stand up for themselves.

[BrerSchultzy]

Union or no union...Disney has every right to fire these people now, because they wore Disney costumes in an inappropriate manner. They contributed to the demeaning of their employer, and it is a very well-known Disney policy to let go people who do this (just like the men who grew beards 10 years ago to protest that dress code....Disney just let them go for violating company rules, and the story ended there). In other words, they gave Disney an out by wearing the costumes....if they hadn't done that, they may have been okay.

So, whatever their point was, they did it the wrong way, because now, Disney can let them go instead of meeting their demands. Bad move.

And if this puts Disney in a bad light, then so be it. If national attention focuses on Disney paying people a lot less than other companies (and that turns out to be true) then great. But I ALWAYS distrust people who say they COULD get a job somewhere else for more money...because if they could, they would.

[Tekneek]

Yep, many corporations, some of the largest ones out there, haven't paid income taxes in years. Disney posts huge profits and is raising prices, while looking to cut benefits. Good corporate citizen here? Doesn't sound much like it.

Despite the UAW being a target for anti-union rhetoric, the evidence shows that GM is in a mess due to terrible strategic decisions made at the highest management levels. If there is real evidence that shows that UAW is to blame for GM being heavy on big trucks and SUVs at the wrong time, please show it to me. I haven't found it yet and would love to read it. You might also be interested in knowing that GM's management is compensated much more heavily than Toyota management is, and that the difference in compensation from the average wage in that company to the top wage is much smaller than at GM. Oddly enough, Toyota didn't need a union to keep that spread down. They just needed good management...go figure.

[Tekneek]

But I ALWAYS distrust people who say they COULD get a job somewhere else for more money...because if they could, they would.

This statement has no legs to stand on. It implies that people only take jobs based on the wages offered, which is not true in all cases and never has been.

[BrerSchultzy]

This statement has no legs to stand on. It implies that people only take jobs based on the wages offered, which is not true in all cases and never has been.

Then I should clarify...every time I've heard that in person, it was from someone who was dissatisfied with their current job, and claimed that they could make more money somewhere else, but when their bluff was called, they found themselves making the same or less somewhere else.

In other words, if the other job pays more, but is "similar", as the article states, then they should go. If there are other reasons to stay with the current job (location, company, etc.), then the jobs aren't "similar" anymore.

That said, I think these cast members have every right to protest...and I don't think this conversation needs to go in a "Union vs. Non-union" argument....there's no need for that here. This isn't about the union, it's about the protesters, and their bad decision to shoot themselves in the foot, and possibly ruin several hundred vacations to boot. Yes, they got attention, but this conversation has shown that it may not have been the right attention. They could have done this in MANY MANY other ways and possibly even gotten the support of Disney's biggest fans and other cast members...but doing it this way alienates them from so many people who could have otherwise supported them.

[Aggie97]

I have to agree with Ian about this. Health care costs are rising tremendously. Employers change benefits packages all the time, including the percentage of health care costs they pay for employees.

I support these employees' right to protest, and I support their right to find other more gainful employment if they feel it's to be had.

I did find it interesting that other employees at DLR must pay about 25 percent of their health care costs, though.

Slightly off topic... but as far as 66% of U.S. corporations not paying income taxes... the GAO did not look at whether or not the corps. are actually doing anything illegal, based on tax codes. In addition, it's mostly small corporations that were found to be paying no income taxes. Only 25% of large corporations did not pay income taxes, and the vast majority of these non-paying large corps. had net losses, and therefore no taxable income.

[Queen Stephanie]

Disneyland is a business unique from any other. These people crossed-the-line when they wore costumes of icons such as Cinderella, Snow White, etc. With all the "bad" stuff of this world we are exposed to everyday in the news, Disney represents to us the "Happiest Place On Earth", where we can escape the bad. Cinderella and Snow White doesn't care about Unions or employees health insurance. They are characters. I hope Disney FIRES each one of these people who put on a costume today and made a choice to get arrested. They should have protected these characters, not involved them in human issues. They should have thought about us, the Disney fans who pay into the Disney franchise, thereby giving them a job. I can't imagine what the small children thought who witnessed this disaster...that image will forever be etched in their minds. Shame on whoever these people are. I hope you get Fired!

[Tekneek]

It doesn't matter to me whether those people get fired or not. Disney works hard to remind me that they are just another big corporate business out there all the time, so I know I'm not looking at a bunch of magic generated from pixie dust.

For me, the "Disney is a business and needs to make as much money as they can" spin has come home to roost. If the company is going to take an overt position on making as many dollars off of each transaction as they can (not saying it is wrong, but being so obvious about it is not "magical" at all), I can hardly be surprised when its employees take the same position. Disney management decided to run the company as if it were any other corporation, and now they have employees who treat it like they would any other corporation. In my mind, it is a culture issue and the "magic" was devalued by upper management long before the lower level castmembers gave up on the concept.

[Ed]

I should also mention that virutally no one (outside of the Federal government ;) ) gets free health care anymore. It's just not economically feasible.


Sorry, Ian... I have to disagree. I'm a federal employee, and I pay DEARLY for my health care coverage. :mad:

[ParkMan]

I'm saddened that these castmembers decided to make their complaint with Disney so public and especially because they wore costumes while doing it.

When I go on vacation, the last thing I want to think about is the "real" world. I hide the cell phone, I don't turn on the TV or read the newspaper - heck, I don't even return calls to family & friends. For me, it's my time to get away from it all!

I completely support the right to protest, but please, just recognize why we're all there. Frankly, it doesn't make me think less of Disney. Quite to opposite, it makes me think less of the people who purposely try to use my vacation as leverage to embarrass Disney and shame them into paying more money.

[Daddy Mouse]

In at least this country unions are a necessary evil that was created by greedy business owners. I also know that many unions used their strength in numbers to hurt businesses. There are no halos worn from either side.

I would want to know more about the laws in Ca. as it concerns health care. I don't agree with CMs wearing costumes in their protest but it does raise the public attention.

I do believe that leadership should always be leaders. If it meant that the people I depend upon to make the magic, I would give up my bonus to pay for the health care for my employees. Disney Execs could do this easily!

[Advnt05]

I agree with a person's right to protest. I also don't have a problem with these folks wearing the costumes. Did you see the photos? They were the ones bought by kids and such at stores. In no way did they look like the real characters. Most parents could spin this as a teaching moment and avoid any kids being traumatized by it at all. I also think it was smart since we have now heard the issue and we probably would not have otherwise.
Having said that, I'm usually not pro-union and fall into the camp of getting another job if you are not happy. I recognize there are some areas of the country where there are not other options.
I do have a problem when people get upset about corporate greed and cutting benefits issue. In today's soceity where pension plans are going by the wayside, we are all responsible for our own retirement plans (401K plans, TSP plans, etc..). We expect our investments to make money for us so we can retire without depending on a company to stay solvent (see Enron, social security, etc..). It's not Disney that is making the money but the shareholders and stakeholders in the company. Everyone who owns Disney stock benefits. I give you that some CEOs are making unrealistic amounts of money. But, I want my investments to be profitable. If my company has to cut benefits to keep the same profit margin, than we can debate ethical implications all day long. Sure some are pinched, but others are benefiting. Who establishes the fairness line? Is it when everyone in the world has exactly the same thing?

[Daddy Mouse]

I agree with a person's right to protest. I also don't have a problem with these folks wearing the costumes. Did you see the photos? They were the ones bought by kids and such at stores. In no way did they look like the real characters. Most parents could spin this as a teaching moment and avoid any kids being traumatized by it at all. I also think it was smart since we have now heard the issue and we probably would not have otherwise.
Having said that, I'm usually not pro-union and fall into the camp of getting another job if you are not happy. I recognize there are some areas of the country where there are not other options.
I do have a problem when people get upset about corporate greed and cutting benefits issue. In today's soceity where pension plans are going by the wayside, we are all responsible for our own retirement plans (401K plans, TSP plans, etc..). We expect our investments to make money for us so we can retire without depending on a company to stay solvent (see Enron, social security, etc..). It's not Disney that is making the money but the shareholders and stakeholders in the company. Everyone who owns Disney stock benefits. I give you that some CEOs are making unrealistic amounts of money. But, I want my investments to be profitable. If my company has to cut benefits to keep the same profit margin, than we can debate ethical implications all day long. Sure some are pinched, but others are benefiting. Who establishes the fairness line? Is it when everyone in the world has exactly the same thing?

While I agree with your thinking on the stockholders. This particular costs to stockholders would be so negligible that it wouldn't even be noticed. As a stockholder I am more willing to make sure my brothers and sisters had health care and a decent livable wage than to see top execs get a large amount of money, stock options, etc... for bonuses. Just my Humanity opinion.

[Ian]

Sorry, Ian... I have to disagree. I'm a federal employee, and I pay DEARLY for my health care coverage. :mad:Sorry, Ed. I should have been more clear ... that was intended to be a shot at politicians, not all Federal employees.

I was talking about the well-publicized fact that Senators, Congressman, et. al. don't pay a nickel for their health coverage and are able to avail themselves of medical care at some of the best facilities in the world.

Trust me ... My Mom is civilian DoD and I know she pays for her benes just like I do.

[DisneyFanaticDargon]

The bottom line is, a union exists to continue to try to get more and more for their people (often in the face of all logic and reason ... see UAW or any of the airline unions).

I personally take offense to this statement. My father works for Chrysler and is a UAW member. The demands that the UAW makes, in the current state of the American auto industry (where many of the same individuals who decry unions are not supporting the American economy in the least by buying foreign cars) are not at all illogical or unreasonable. Chrysler eliminated all voluntary overtime a few months back. With the conditions that many of these individuals are expected to work in, the current state of the economy, and now the cuts in hours is it REALLY that far-fetched to imagine them fighting for what little semblance of benefits (e.g. healthcare) that they have left?

Unions exist because of the fact that ANY corporation out there that employs people that aren't unionized feels no sympathy toward letting individual employees go on a whim or any obligation to give them any kind of benefit beyond the bottom line. If federal and state mandated minimum wages didn't exist, many of these jobs that dont' have unions would probably be earning a pittance for their labor and be unable to make ends meet. Wal-Mart, who to this day refuses to let its employees unionize, is a perfect example of this. You know why they won't let them unionize? Because it's easier to fire them if they complain. If they let them unionize do you think the employees would stand for the current conditions they're in? No, they'd strike like crazy and Wal-Mart would (deservedly) lose millions of dollars due to lost productivity.

No corporation, not even Disney (who I happen to work for and am very proud of it), would be above treating their employees like dirt if these unions didn't exist to stand up to them. Any corporation's upper echelons are concerned with only lining the pockets of its executives and their shareholders. You may think that what these cast members do is minuscule in the grand scheme of things, but when you notice the fact that our hotels enjoy a 99% occupancy rate, cleaning all those rooms and dealing with all those guests is quite a feat. And yes, Disney does pay less than many other companies in the area. In-N-Out Burger has a higher starting pay rate than most of the roles at the Disneyland resort.

Considering what we as Cast Members have to deal with every day, regardless of how much we love our jobs (I don't work in hotels but I sympathize with them) I don't think what went on was unexpected, especially considering it's looking like Disney is going to back out on a promise they previously made.

[J.C.&ALI'SMOM]

We were at DLR, staying at Paradise Pier, on July 16,17, and 18 and the protest was going on then. I know that they protested on the morning of the 17th because the horn blowing, chanting, whistle blowing, yelling, etc. woke us up at 6:30am. There were also news crews on the sidewalk doing stories on the protest.

We didn't complain to the front desk, but I am sure there were plenty of guests who did. We were on the 7th (I think) floor and could here them fine. It would be very loud on lower floors.

There were people dressed up in costumes at that time as well.

The point is this has evidently been going on for almost a month before any kind of arrests were made. I guess they felt that they weren't getting any results so they walked to the park and blocked traffic.

[Advnt05]

No corporation, not even Disney (who I happen to work for and am very proud of it), would be above treating their employees like dirt if these unions didn't exist to stand up to them.

I would have to disagree with this statement. There are many examples of corporations, small businesses, and such that are successful and don't treat their employees poorly. I'm sure you would find some employees in every organization that are unhappy.

When you look at the list of top 10 companies (2008) in terms of employee satisfaction, you find these:

1. Google 6. Cisco Systems
2. Quicken Loans 7. Starbucks
3. Wegmans Food Markets 8. Qualcomm
4. Edward Jones 9. Goldman Sachs
5. Genentech 10. Methodist Hospital System

Note that none of them are Disney but none are unionized either.

I do agree with the statement that americans are buying foreign cars contribute to the problem. Now, a lot of these cars are being made in the US. Just not in Detroit and other places. The same folks that are complaining about WalMarts unfair practices, are buying WalMart products because they are so cheap. Same thing happens in every industry. Look at Delta, the airline industry is slowly dying. With large fuel prices and salary/benefit concessions, airlines are going under. The unions are fighting each other (pilots verses support personnel) and the industry. Where will they all go if Delta goes under?

At the same time, I can't see the CEO or Oracle being worth the $84 million he will make this year.

[Tekneek]

I still think the problem with many of these big US corporations is very poor governance. With the gap between the bottom rung employees and CEOs larger than in any other industrialized nation and expanding faster than any other, there is a huge problem here and I have a hard time blaming labor unions for it. I very seriously doubt that they argue for upper management to take home larger pieces of the pie every year.

The problem lies with shareholders who don't seem to care about how these corporations are ran, combined with BODs that are more interested in their compensation plans than much else. If shareholders made more noise about the ethics and integrity of these corporations (something they derisively call "activist shareholders", although I call it active ownership) and demanded more than just short-term financial targets, we could get somewhere. I find many corporations struggle with employee satisfaction when they begin to have more interest in pleasing Wall Street than anybody else. If you take care of your employees, they will take care of your customers, and the rest should take care of itself.

[Iluvpooh]

The demands that the UAW makes, in the current state of the American auto industry (where many of the same individuals who decry unions are not supporting the American economy in the least by buying foreign cars) are not at all illogical or unreasonable.

Unions exist because of the fact that ANY corporation out there that employs people that aren't unionized feels no sympathy toward letting individual employees go on a whim or any obligation to give them any kind.

Wal-Mart, who to this day refuses to let its employees unionize, is a perfect example of this. You know why they won't let them unionize? Because it's easier to fire them if they complain. If they let them unionize do you think the employees would stand for the current conditions they're in? No, they'd strike like crazy and Wal-Mart would (deservedly) lose millions of dollars due to lost productivity.

Sorry-I just pulled a few random parts out of your piece to comment on.
I live in Alabama and thier happens to be a Honda Plant, Hyundai Plant and a Mercedes Plant here. BTW-I drive a Honda Pilot and I did own a Chevy Malibu and Trailblazer- I had serious issues with the heads on the Malibu and come to find out from a Chevy mechanic so did LOTS of OTHER people who had the same car, my A/C stopped working 2 years after I got it and so did A LOT of other people's too! Then the Trailblazer-WOW! 1st the transmission and then the A/C. My husband had a GMC Sierra Z71 again transmission trouble and the A/C stopped working and the leather seat fell apart within a year!. He now owns a Toyota Titan and I can honestly say that I will NEVER own another GM product ever!! They are over priced and unreliable.


As far as Unions protecting people from losing thier jobs they also make it very hard to fire employees that are not good at thier jobs too. My husband works for a large company(Kimberly-Clark-Scott Paper) and they have some very substandard employees that they can not get rid of because f the union.

I was unaware that so many people had it so bad at Wal=Mart. Last time I checked they are a retail/grocery chain and have good insurance. They make around the same money as anyone working for a Publix, Goodings or JCPenneys. I worked as a department manager at Wal-Mart while I was in college and I was perfectly happy-good pay and cheap insurance
($18 a month for BCBS) Not too bad IMO.

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm not disagreeing with you (believe it or not).

But I did notice that the quote about "entitlements" came from someone from Australia, perhaps the use of the word "entitlements" instead of "benefits" is more a vocabulary difference? Just a thought.


I think that be the case.....'mate

[A Big Kid]

I think you would be surprised at how many people still get free health care as an employment benefit.

It aint "free." You just get lower wages to cover the cost of the healthcare.

At any rate, the people who got arrested are "professional protesters" that the unions fly around the country to get arrested. Especially in liberal areas like Ca, Wa, and Or where they know they will get a ticket, the union will pay the costs, and the media flocks to the location to get their word out.

They dont do it in Harris County Texas because the DA files Class A misdemeanors against them with $5,000 bonds.

I remember the last time they tried it here and as the jail bus was rolling out to go to jail, one "protestor" asked, "you guys are not going to write us tickets for this?":D

[lockedoutlogic]

Woah....the polico/social powderkeg has blown sky high on this one.....

First.....I'm from rust belt union country (mostly UMW-USW types....i was a member of USW when i was in college).....i've also worked for disney...now work in private business for predominantly the state local, and federal government on a consultant basis....

Here's what i think:

To classify all labor unions as good or bad is silly.....there are many protections they provide....as well as protecting inefficiencies and problems in many cases....

you can't blanket them all into one....not by county...region...state....town...or trade...it's not that simple

At the same time private/ non-unionized employeers are also far from model citizens....for every Starbucks or Google....there are hundreds of abusers...with greed always being the prime motivation....

As far as the UAW goes.....i don't know them....but i assume their ranks are filled with honorable, hardworking, dedicated current and former employees.....with some bad eggs mixed in.

But the UAW has critically wounded the american car manufacturer....in my opinion.....

because everyone lives too long. Don't laugh....medical and pensions are in danger of crippling all unions.....

Just like american social security.....a retiree was never meant to live 30 years past retirement....not in the mathematical formula used to set up the labor contracts and bargaining agreements.....it's just simply too much weight on the ship....and the ship will probably ultimately sink.

Many companies have tried to curb this.....but pay and medical are their biggest costs.....especially tough when speaking about those who haven't picked up a tool since the 70's...

In the case of Ford, Chrysler, and GM...it's pretty obvious what they've done: They've used substandard parts and cheaper manufacturing processes in an attempt to make up for the higher labor outlays.....they also attempt to recoup their outlays through an almost criminal service policy.....anyone every had a tuneup on a chevy that wasn't $2K? I never did....and i just had breaks, timing belts, a faulty computer sensor, transmission service, and a leaky fuel line done at Hyndai for $1200.00.....

Bad cars.....loss of customers.....hello Toyota....

pretty simple....actually

Now back to disney.....

I believe every word of what both sides are saying.....Disney is attempting to strangle the employees......the employees are attempting to hold them hostage and use sentiment and outside competitors as their only bargaining strategy.....

It happened in WDW as well....only their wages are still lower and they have much less bargaining leverage.....

"Right to work state"...roughly translated as "don't think you're paying off your mortgage or going on vacations of your own anytime soon"

But I digress.....Disney went corporate.....why? cause it was logical based on past events.....

Walt/Roy Disney/ Card Walker/ Ron Miller ran things like a family.....not like grandma and grandpa (Walt notoriously crushed and artist's strike in the late 30's)....but they definitely wouldn't take away something from their employees....

well.....they slowly ran into the wall....disney was almost raided and sold off in 84......

regime and philosophy change.....ivy league suits.....Michael Eisner....

5 years to start the streamlining/ cost cutting.....10 years to get it rolling.....by the eisner revolt in 03-04.....a complete shift in hiring practices, treatment of employees, and most damaging - employee pride, morale, and attitude.

It's hard to justify to someone who has worked holidays, weekends, special occasions....all with smiles and dedication and pride that they can no longer expect merit raises to keep up....or overtime to pad their coffer.....or having their hours or tip position opportunities reduced to limit their income......in many cases because they are making more than double their highly underpaid managers' salaries....

...all the while working at one of the most expensive vacations....pound for pound....that is available to a mass population.......while being crammed 98% of the time with lines down the block...

how much is a one day ticket again?

you get where i'm going with this.....

but disney workers unions have to look to the mirror for a large part of the blame.....they behave like kindergarteners.....their apathy outweighs their hand.....

[A Big Kid]

The companies that I have worked for have always given their employees free heath care and most people I know have free health care from their employers.

I can't disagree with you more on your views of unions (which is a whole other discussion). Unions exist so employees get a fair shake from their employers. Disney is a multibillion dollar company and I think that they can afford to give their employees health care.

Did anyone see the study that came out last week that said 40% of companies don't pay any taxes? These big businesses will do anything to make more money for themselves no matter who they cheat. Employees must stand up for themselves.

Those "corporations" were not biggies like GM or Mcdonalds etc. They were Sub Chapter S corps that were created in a way that allows them to write off lossess. "S Corps" dont pay any income taxes. The corporation's income or losses are spread among and passed through to its shareholders through dividends ro lack thereof. The holders of the shares must then report the income or loss on their own individual income tax returns. So, taxes are paid. Shareholders know what they are getting into when they buy the shares.

More importantly, CORPORATIONS DONT PAY TAXES ANYWAY! Taxes are a cost of doing business that is passed on to consumers (like every other CODB). Politicians created a middle man tax collector out of businesses to fool the people that they are not being taxed so much.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

[A Big Kid]

Union or no union...Disney has every right to fire these people now, because they wore Disney costumes in an inappropriate manner. .


Read my post above about professional protestors.

[A Big Kid]

Yep, many corporations, some of the largest ones out there, haven't paid income taxes in years. Disney posts huge profits and is raising prices, while looking to cut benefits. Good corporate citizen here? Doesn't sound much like it.

Despite the UAW being a target for anti-union rhetoric, the evidence shows that GM is in a mess due to terrible strategic decisions made at the highest management levels. If there is real evidence that shows that UAW is to blame for GM being heavy on big trucks and SUVs at the wrong time, please show it to me. I haven't found it yet and would love to read it. You might also be interested in knowing that GM's management is compensated much more heavily than Toyota management is, and that the difference in compensation from the average wage in that company to the top wage is much smaller than at GM. Oddly enough, Toyota didn't need a union to keep that spread down. They just needed good management...go figure.

GM is in dire straights because of HUGE pension benefits owed due to union contracts.

[lockedoutlogic]

GM is in dire straights because of HUGE pension benefits owed due to union contracts.

that is the silent truth to the decline of manufacturing in america....it is indisputable.....

i saw that the US has fallen behind China...yes...where ALL of your mickey stuff comes from.....in percentage of raw manufactured goods....ending a 120 year lead in where things are made......

it will continue to go that way.....it can be traced backed to the actions of Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, and the explosion in the latter half of the twentieth century in medical technology and life expectancy.....

To be blunt: americans outlive their usefulness in the american workplace......

we simply live too long....it has killed the industrial complex....

[Tekneek]

GM is in dire straights because of HUGE pension benefits owed due to union contracts.

That may have complicated their operating position, but it did not cause their management to be over compensated, to overuse corporate jets (by any reasonable standard...go read their SEC filings for the past couple of years for the evidence of that), and go heavy on a truck/SUV strategy at the worst possible time. The pension plans and UAW only required their management to perform better than the rest, but they failed to deliver. It is a red herring that all of their problems belong to UAW and the evidence, go read it for yourself, doesn't support it.

[SteveL]

It aint "free." You just get lower wages to cover the cost of the healthcare

Not true. There are quite a few companies that pay their employees at, or above, the prevailing wage that other companies,that require employee contributions, pay.
Also, when we moved our North American operation into the City of Philadelphia there was an across the board increase to compensate for the City Wage Tax.
On top of that, our company's time-off policy is quite generous as it fall in line with that of our European parent company's.

[A Big Kid]

Not true. There are quite a few companies that pay their employees at, or above, the prevailing wage that other companies,that require employee contributions, pay.
Also, when we moved our North American operation into the City of Philadelphia there was an across the board increase to compensate for the City Wage Tax.
On top of that, our company's time-off policy is quite generous as it fall in line with that of our European parent company's.

True. If the company was not paying several hundred dollars a month for an employee's healthcare, that money would/could be spent on wages.

Employee benefits and compensation are like a big balloon. You can squeeze the balloon into differen shapes, you can twist one end off, you can stretch it or compress it---bottom line it still has the same volume of air in it.

Nothing is "free." Everything has a cost attached to it.

[Tekneek]

True. If the company was not paying several hundred dollars a month for an employee's healthcare, that money would/could be spent on wages.

How many have come out and asked their employees to take benefit reductions in order to give them pay raises? I'm not saying it has not happened, but I am skeptical that many have done this. I would really like to read any press statements, releases, SEC filings, etc, that demonstrate this behavior. If you have to PM them to me, please do. I want to read about it.

[A Big Kid]

How many have come out and asked their employees to take benefit reductions in order to give them pay raises? I'm not saying it has not happened, but I am skeptical that many have done this. I would really like to read any press statements, releases, SEC filings, etc, that demonstrate this behavior. If you have to PM them to me, please do. I want to read about it.

It is plain old common sense. The rational behinf the decisions regards to employee compensation are not going to be found in 10K's (you like to call SEC filings), press statements, releases, and any other term you toss out.

Employee compenstation is a CODB. Part of it is direct compensation, part of it is indierct compensation (benifits - like healthcare, vacation days, 401K matching, etc). What you get in one, you give up in the other.


Keep breathing the union line, you'll be ok.

[Tekneek]

I understand the theory and of course it makes sense. However, what I am asking you, is to show me an example of it happening. When has any major corporation reduced, or attempted to reduce, benefits with the intention to raise compensation for those same employees. Most of the time that I see, hear, or read about benefit reductions, that money is not going into increased compensation. Their raises stay the same, or even go down.

Also, please spare me the "breathing the union line" attitude. I own my own business, so I am definitely on the other side of the fence. Just because I can understand that a lot of corporate management is not the next thing to Godliness does not mean I do not understand business.

[Advnt05]

I can use myself as an example where the company reduces wages for other benefits. I work for the Fedral Government. The lunacy of our pay system is that we cannot get raises unless Congress (who are mostly millionairs already) vote themselves a raise. Our pay is tied to theirs. Anyway...I digress. For years we have been told that we are paid "less than the private sector" but we have a better retirement system and health care (not to mention job security). In fact, every year, I get a statement which displays my salary, all of my retirement contributions, and my health care contributions by my employer. It totals it all up and says that this is how much my employement costs my employer (Federal Government). I totally agree with the point the other poster makes that each company has a limited amount of funds set aside for each employee. If the business starts going south and they need to cut expenses, something is going to give. Health care is the easiest for now, rather than wages. I would imagine for most people, if you gave them a pile of cash and said, "Spend it how you wish between retirement, health care, and your salary", most would spend it all on salary and buying things. When retirement comes around, then they would ask for someone to help take care of them as they have none.
Look in the US as the uproar when the tried to privatize Social Security. Most are more comfortable with either their government or their company taking care of them in their retirement rather than themselves.

[Jasper]

Wow, it is amazing how this thread that started out primarily as one about whether or not it was right for protesters to do so in Disney has gotten so far off into left field.

The bottom line as I see it is that there will always be a certain amount of tension between labor and management because when you don't have this tension it is called Socialism and we see how well that has worked in this world! As long as this tension exists labor will continue to rail about how much they are continuously being victimized by management and management will continue to rail about how they are continuously being victimized by labor!

While this tension can never and should never go entirely away, as long as so many on each side of this issue continue to blow and bluster the "party" line for their side then we will continue to struggle with gaining the kind of real reform that needs to happen in both business and government.

I don't know how to get there, but somehow we need to get o a point where everyone understands that we are both on the same side in this country just with slightly different views of how to get to where we want to be.

[Tekneek]

Look in the US as the uproar when the tried to privatize Social Security.

Turns out they probably came out way ahead on that deal (at least for the short term) by stopping the plan, given the way market has tumbled. It may have been one of the worst possible times to start something like that... Not to mention that we now know the financial industry is, yet again, busy demonstrating how it can't self-regulate.

[Mickey91]

Most corporations in trouble are there not due to Union packages asking too much for the real people making the company money and keeping the company going, but too many VP's being paid six or seven digits each trying to have their little say in how something gets done and the knee deep paper filing that has to go on to get anything done! The workers are just trying to feed their families and pay for their cars and homes while working in a safe environment. Most are having a very hard time with that right now. So you will have to forgive them if they aren't too upset that their union package might interfere with one of the VP's plans to buy a second Leer Jet! :mad: