Private Homes Coming on WDW Property

[Ed]

If you have millions, a home near Disney could be yours

Scott Powers
Sentinel Staff Writer
March 28, 2008

Three-story mansions and hundreds of other homes -- most valued at millions of dollars apiece -- would be built along the banks of Walt Disney World canals and sold to private individuals in a project under review by Orange County.

The homes, mostly single-family residences but including a few condominiums and time-share units, would rise from what was Disney's Eagle Pines Golf Course -- just a jog away from the Magic Kingdom, Epcot and Downtown Disney. The adjacent Osprey Ridge Golf Course would be incorporated into the private development, now called the "Northeast Resort."

Disney insists it is still too early in the planning process to discuss many details. With the country mired in a housing slump, one local expert said luxury homes in the gated community would most likely be marketed to and snapped up by wealthy foreign buyers.

Disney World first announced its intentions in March 2007 to build a luxury housing resort on 429 acres in the northeast corner of the giant resort, but few details have been reported. A year ago, more attention was focused on related plans to build an anchor for the resort -- a Four Seasons luxury hotel -- which would go up on another section of the former Eagle Pines Golf Course.

Rezoning plans now circulating in Orange County government's planning division remain limited in detail but suggest a neighborhood like no other: a gated community of estate homes, village homes, courtyard homes, cluster-villa homes and condominiums closer than most of Disney's hotels to the world's most popular theme parks. Disney is asking Orange County to rezone the property as a planned development, with areas defined for single-family homes, multifamily homes, time-share units and conservation easements.

Altogether, the project could encompass as many as 373 single-family homes, 200 multifamily homes and 60 time-share units, though the final tallies are expected to be lower.


Earlier forays

Disney World has spun off land for residential development before -- notably the communities of Celebration and Little Lake Bryan -- but the Northeast Resort would be far more luxurious, said Marilyn Waters, spokeswoman for Walt Disney Imagineering, the Disney office that handles real-estate development. She compared the Northeast Resort concept to the Four Seasons-anchored Aviara community in San Diego, a high-end vacation community for people rich enough to have multimillion-dollar second or third homes.

"This is in essence the coming together of the Disney brand and the Four Seasons brand. This is the first time that has happened," Waters said. "These are often the types of places people come in for two or three weeks, then they won't be back for several months."

William Weaver, a real-estate professor at the University of Central Florida, predicted Disney would market such homes heavily overseas. Disney's reputation for attention to detail, he said, along with the project's unique location, should make even mansions easy to sell, regardless of market conditions.

"I can't see many Americans buying multimillion-dollar second houses on Disney property, not very many. But I certainly can see foreigners," Weaver said. "As the dollar keeps deteriorating against everything else, it becomes cheaper and cheaper."

The area would be developed much as Disney developed Little Lake Bryan, Celebration and a couple of smaller projects. Disney would have the property de-annexed from both the Reedy Creek Improvement District -- the independent government district created in 1967 to provide countylike services to Disney World -- and from Lake Buena Vista and Bay Lake, the two cities created back then to provide city services to most of Disney World.

Orange County would then provide such services, including utilities, fire protection and sheriff's patrols.

Although the area is still within Reedy Creek's jurisdiction for now, Disney is seeking advance approval from Orange County officials with a de-annexation in mind. The project is now headed for public hearings before the county Planning and Zoning Commission and the Board of County Commissioners.


Getting to work

Earlier this month, Disney World contractors began preparing the site, installing construction fences and doing some light earthmoving on land north of Vista Boulevard and west of Winter Garden-Vineland Road. That work should take most of the rest of the year, Waters said, but actual home construction could start before the year is out.

The vast majority of the homes would be built to order, and the entire community could take up to 10 years to build, though planners don't expect it to take that long.

The county has recommended a few changes in the plans, yet there appear to be no major concerns, Orange County Planning Administrator John Smogor said.

Built out to the maximum, the area could house an estimated 1,702 people. The county has to review the plans under the assumption that, except for the time-share units, the homes would serve as the owners' primary residences, Smogor said, meaning a year-round impact on roads and services.

But "if they sell these homes to rich people in Japan, the Philippines, Chicago or New York, and they want to come down here and just have a big house a few weeks a year at Disney, that's fine," he said.


Scott Powers can be reached at [email protected] or 407-420-5441.

Copyright © 2008, Orlando Sentinel

[Ian]

Oh, I don't like this idea at all.

[Wells]

There goes the neighborhood……..

[murphy1]

Oh, I don't like this idea at all.

I agree! Isn't this why they built Celebration??

[jakeybake]

I agree. I hate this plan. The outside world is slowly creeping into the hallowed grounds of WDW.

We have seen it slowly happen over the years. Who would of thought they would ever see a McDonald's on Disney property? Not me. But we have one.

I am very disapointed and am fearful of a day when people are purchasing condo's in the parks.

Not good, not good at all.

Jay

[Wells]

I am very disapointed and am fearful of a day when people are purchasing condo's in the parks.
Maybe the'll put some DVC condos in the Tower of Terror..;)

[Mr. Brass Bonanza]

I think this stinks. If Eisner was still around, I would say it's another way he's destroying Disney. But I can't believe something like this was conceived and moving forward post-Eisner. I'm very disappointed. Can't anything be left sacred? I agree with the article...these with be snatched up by foreign investors who couldn't care less about Disney.

Shameful on all fronts!

[GrumpyFan]

I don't know, my initial thought was NO, NO, NO, but the more I read, and thought about it, I warmed to it, a little. If these homes are out of the mainstream traffic flow, and away from the parks so as not to distract, they won't be a problem, and will help generate extra revenue for Disney without costing them much at all. My objection would be when and if these homes were build somewhere highly visible like the banks of Bay Lake or other major water ways. For now, I'll just wait and see how this develops. Also, if you remember, Walt's original plan for "The Florida Project" was to have lots and lots of people living here, not that I want to see that fulfilled, but just saying.

On a related note, have there been any building plans released for the new Four Seasons resort? Not that I see myself staying there anytime soon, but I was just wondering what it will look like.

[Ian]

Well based on the way I read the article it talks about homes on the waterways ... to me that means all over the place and visible.

That's absurd if you ask me. Talk about blowing the illusion?? I'm crusing on the monorail from MK to Epcot only to look down and see some guy's driveway??

I think not.

[disneydeb]

Do you think they will be giving one of those homes away in the NEXT year of a Million Dreams. :D

[vicster]

Is business that bad that Disney has to resort to this?

[ibrowse17]

Before you know it the buffer zone will be gone, and WDW will be surrounded by all sorts of stuff just like DL. I really hope they do not do this.

[SBETigg]

Oh, I don't like this idea at all.

Ian, I totally agree with you!

Seriously, the whole idea is making me ill. I remember reading how disappointed Walt was when he couldn't keep Disneyland as shielded from development as he would have liked, so they did all that private land buying in FL for WDW, specifically so that they could own the entire area, control the building, and keep it private. When they did the Four Seasons deal, I was so afraid of this kind of thing happening. The reason so many of us love WDW and keep going back is that magical feeling of being wrapped up away from the real world. It's heartbreaking to think of the real world encroaching on it all.

[TexasPrincessAurora]

What did they do with Eagle Pines Golf Course? Are they going to do away with it and with Osprey Ridge? And suddenly be down to 3 golf courses? I just don't get this at all.

I agree with the earlier poster...isn't this what the purpose of Celebration was?

[GoinGoofyPlanninThisTrip]

Bad idea. Rich people have enough cool places to live. I believe Walt just completed a few more spins.

This Iger team seems set on obliterating the buffer zone that Walt worked hard to achieve.

[Tinkermom]

What did they do with Eagle Pines Golf Course? Are they going to do away with it and with Osprey Ridge? And suddenly be down to 3 golf courses? I just don't get this at all.

I agree with the earlier poster...isn't this what the purpose of Celebration was?

I remember several years ago getting artwork and an announcement from DVC that the next newest DVC resort was to be "Eagle Pines". About a year or so later DVC announced Saratoga Springs and we never heard another word about Eagle Pines. I asked a DVC rep once about it and he acted like it never happened.

Guess Disney had other plans for the area.:shake:

I personally hate this idea. I go to WDW to escape the real world, I do not want it intruding in.

[murphy1]

There are many, many expensive properties around the area. They can go over to Lake Butler and live next to Shaq and Timberlake at Isleworth. You get more land too.

[BMan62]

Walt is rolling in his grave over this.

It's an abomination of his dream. That's why he purchased so much land around the park area - to keep private properties out and have room to expand the parks and resorts.

Disney cannot possibly be so much in need of capital to undermine it's namesakes dreams.

[DizneyRox]

I wonder how this will impact the pseudo govt Disney has. As permanent residents, they will have the ability to vote for the representatives, or at least that's how I understand it.

[Brian]

This idea downright stinks. Why is WDW selling off its property left and right? Have they forgotten the reason Walt bought all that land in the first place? Has the modern day Disney company run out of ideas for their land so now they must sell it off in real estate deals to make a short-term buck?

[Brian]

I wonder how this will impact the pseudo govt Disney has. As permanent residents, they will have the ability to vote for the representatives, or at least that's how I understand it.

According to the article, they plan to annex the land from Reedy Creek. It would then fall under the control of Orange County. That's an even scarier part of the deal for any WDW fan. Disney isn't simply building homes and leasing them out. They're literally selling off their land.

I think this is the nail in the coffin for my respect of the Disney company. They've become a joke, not some special entity to be regarded as continuing what Walt and Roy started many years ago. It was one thing to release low-quality direct-to-video sequels and make other cheap decisions in the past decade. That kind of stuff can be undone or forgotten. But, selling off their land can't be undone. It's a permanent change and a further shrinking of WDW. The modern-day Disney company truly is in the hands of idiots.

[sleepingbooty]

How awful. I hate the thought of cruising through the canals, and seeing someplace most of us could never dream to have. It would be depressing, not uplifting - not Disney.:ill:

[dudeman1975]

I downright think this is sad, I wish for the good old days of Disney. I was watching the videos from the olden days and remember when Disney was fun, it still is, but it seems more about money, and less about imagination.:mad:

[diz_girl]

If this is true, then I agree that this is an abomination. Of course, the county will approve this. It's major tax dollars coming from multi-million dollar homes, but minimal services going out because the homes will only be used a few weeks a year. So I'd say that this would be as good as a done deal, unless someone with power and influence (or a large group of WDW fans) makes a big stink about it.

Last year's Four Seasons announcements mentioned single and multi-family homes, as well as timeshares, but didn't mention de-annexation. Last year's announcement also mentioned that the golf courses would remain, but with some possible modifications, however now they're supposedly tearing up the golf courses. This stinks.

[Jasper]

Add me to the list of those who don't like this at all. Yes, I agree with the comments that this particular project is being done in an out-of-the-way location and so will not be a visual eyesore on the Disney magic.

We have all seen this happen before! As soon as this project is accepted with little impact or little complaint then they bring in the next project and then the next and then the next. It becomes that proverbial snowball rolling down a hill that starts as a pebble at the top of the hill and becomes an entire mountain by the time it reaches the bottom!

One other comment that I just had to laugh at in the article was the one where they were talking about selling these properties to people that could afford a multi-million dollar property as a second or third home and that these people would end up only visiting the home for 2-3 weeks per year! There is no question I don't run in that kind of group because I could never afford to buy that kind of property in the first place much less to leave it sit empty for 48 weeks out of the year!!

[Brian]

Honestly, it's not even about being able to afford the homes or not. They could build government housing or they could build multi-million dollar mansions, it's the same either way. Disney giving up complete control of their land is not a good thing.

[Deesdisney]

I do not like this plan at all. I would rather see them use it for another park or something else.

[MegaDisney]

I don't think this is a bad idea if it is done correctly.

There is so much property at WDW I think it is smart that the Disney Company find ways to create income, both from the sale of the homes and the income from residents spending money at DtD and the other retail outlets at WDW.

I hope that the development is out of sight and does not turn the property into a unsightly residential development.

[Sean Riley Taylor's Mom]

:( I don't like this at all!

[Victor Kelly]

may I frankly state the Disney mindset for the last decade?



MO MONEY, MO MONEY, MO MONEY!!:ack:

[Anthony007]

I don't like this idea, BUT if I had a few million dollars to spend I'd be all over it!

[TheRustyScupper]

1) And someone said I was wrong to criticize Ogre (I mean Iger).
2) To me, he is worse than Eisner.
3) Even more concerned with the profit line.
4) So much for following Walt's ideals.
5) Even Eisner didn't breach the property line.

Rats !

[Ed]

Get used to it, folks. It's a done deal. I rode past the old golf course (which has sat unused and unmaintained for quite a while) yesterday; it's now surrounded by chain link fence covered with green fabric, huge dump trucks full of dirt were leaving the area, a big area along Vista Drive has been graded and is being used as a staging area for construction equipment.... pretty depressing. :(

As construction gets into full swing, I can just imagine how noisy/dusty it's going to be right next door in Fort Wilderness. :mad:

[ayeckley]

I had to check the calender. Unfortunately today is not April 1. I really wish it had been.

[Piglet822]

I don't like this at all - I understand it's a done deal and I really hope this plan doesn't bomb like some of Disney's past projects (think Disney Instsitute). It's not like it can be undone.

[Jeff G]

Well based on the way I read the article it talks about homes on the waterways ... to me that means all over the place and visible.

That's absurd if you ask me. Talk about blowing the illusion?? I'm crusing on the monorail from MK to Epcot only to look down and see some guy's driveway??

I think not.

We'll said.

This news is disppointing to me, when were at WDW the best part is that we are removed from the real world for a few days. With homes invading so close to the MK I can't help but think this will take away from the magic, how can it not? I love the fact that once you are on WDW grounds you don't see homes, hotels and restauraunts every where.

[PSU]

Uh Oh...what have they done? Who's idea was this? As far as I know, Walt Disney World was meant to be that, its own little world. Where once you step inside, you are transported into another place...where dreams and fantasies come true. And by that I do not mean just the fantasies of a few rich foreigners who can invest in multimillion dollar mansions. Nothing against them, it just doesn't seem like Disney's style. I predict if things go as they ar now, soon WDW will become another Disneyland. A place where you have the one park, and it is surrounded by outside hotels, restaurants, and homes. It will not be a magical world, but a theme park people can go to with a few of its own hotels, and that's mainly it.

Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money. - Walt Disney

If he did that for Disneyland, he probably did the same thing for WDW.

"I'm doing this because I want to do it better" - WD in reference to WDW.

Just my thoughts, but I don't think this is what he meant by better. WDW is more than just a theme park or a hotel, it's a magical world where one can leave the humdrum of everyday life and live amongst the dreams and fantasies of their imagination. It's not a place where one can put up a down payment if their rich enough. A person can go somewhere like Aspen or Vail for that.

PSU

[dudeman1975]

Flooding can also become a problem due to development. Property Devolopement causes the rain to have no where to rain as it has nowhere to go from cement housing. Next thing you know the houses will be flooded and the owners will be suing or complaining to Disney about their house. A golf course has national runoff from grass, trees and soil.

[pink]

I do not like this plan at all. I would rather see them use it for another park or something else.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Why waste that valuable space? :mickey:

[brownie]

In the words of a certain famous one-eyed alien, "That's a bad idea!"

[TheRustyScupper]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Why waste that valuable space?

1) Money.
2) Mullah.
3) Coin of the Realm
4) Profit
5) Mucho Denaro

6) And, Executive Bonuses

[CaptainJessicaSparrow]

Not to let you guys in on this little secret. But there are already homes on Disney property. Several actually - starting with Buena Vista Place, Alexandria, and Parc Vue.

Located right behind the Magic Kingdom. And I mean, you can see Fantasyland type homes. And yet, you've never noticed them? What makes you think the new ones will be any different?

And I'm not saying this is a good idea at all - in fact, yes, I think it is stupid and horrible and I can't wait to take over the company. I hope by then, all of you have significant portions of stock in the company because together, if we all own at least 1/2, we can get the majority votes and elect to have these things bought back, destroyed and levelled.

And make a Villians Parks - ahaha, the joke. Ah...ignore this post, I'm exhausted because I think I died a little more inside.

[Mickey91]

1) Money.
2) Mullah.
3) Coin of the Realm
4) Profit
5) Mucho Denaro

6) And, Executive Bonuses

Ah, come on. Don't you have a real reason??? No one is in it for the Money are they?? LOL:secret:

[Hammer]

Not to let you guys in on this little secret. But there are already homes on Disney property. Several actually - starting with Buena Vista Place, Alexandria, and Parc Vue.

Located right behind the Magic Kingdom. And I mean, you can see Fantasyland type homes. And yet, you've never noticed them? What makes you think the new ones will be any different?


I was waiting for someone to bring up those communities. I tend to think these additions will not be extremely noticeable to the majority of the WDW vacationing public. The people who stay and live in these sort of places value privacy above all else. They don't want to see us any more than we want to see them.

While I think the Four Seasons hotel on property fills a need which Disney does not have the manpower nor is structured to provide, I'm not crazy about the expansion into making it part of their Private Residences collection.

[Ian]

To me the issue is as much about the appearance of them pimping out Walt Disney World than it is anything else.

I mean the fact that these are going to be huge, multi-million dollar homes that virtually no one will be able to afford. That annoys me. It's distasteful.

And you know me. I'm a die-hard capitalist. Normally I'd be okay with this, but there's just something about Disney that makes me wish they were above doing this sort of thing.

If they were providing more across-the-board housing ... where normal people could maybe have a chance to purchase a unit. That would at least be a little more palatable.

[AndrewJackson]

I am not sure that this is such a bad idea. I would also be willing to bet that most of the people complaining about it would be the first to buy a house if they had an extra $2M sitting around for a home. I know I would!

[Ian]

I am not sure that this is such a bad idea. I would also be willing to bet that most of the people complaining about it would be the first to buy a house if they had an extra $2M sitting around for a home. I know I would!Just because you would do something doesn't mean you should do something.

Likewise, just because Disney can do this it doesn't mean they should.

I always use this analogy ... Disney could make a fortune if they opened a casino on property. That doesn't mean they should. Not every way to make money is a good way.

[Aurora]

Flooding can also become a problem due to development. Property Devolopement causes the rain to have no where to rain as it has nowhere to go from cement housing. Next thing you know the houses will be flooded and the owners will be suing or complaining to Disney about their house. A golf course has national runoff from grass, trees and soil.

Not only that, but Disney has always made a commitment to the environment and to water reclamation. By selling off a chunk of the land, it gives control over water reclamation to Orange County. I see that as a problem for the area.


Built out to the maximum, the area could house an estimated 1,702 people. The county has to review the plans under the assumption that, except for the time-share units, the homes would serve as the owners' primary residences, Smogor said, meaning a year-round impact on roads and services.

This is the part that really makes me nervous. A YEAR-ROUND IMPACT ON ROADS AND SERVICES. That means WDW roads, folks. Once they sell those properties, there's no controlling the number of people who are there, LIVING there, not just vacationing there. To paraphrase Bette Davis, fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

[frakers]

Bad idea, bad form. Why is it that every decision in the past fews years has been markedly worse than the one before? It's gotten to the point that everytime I hear that Disney is announcing something new I started to cringe in anticipation? However, no matter how bad I THINK it's going to be, it ends up being somehow, shockingly worse. Way to go Disney...yeh right.

[AndrewJackson]

Just because you would do something doesn't mean you should do something.


Thanks for the lecture, but I am a big boy. I can decide for myself what I should or should not do. ;)

I think some people are imagining these private homes being on Main Street. Disney usually does things the right way. I really do not see the difference between this and Celebration, other than this being on a smaller scale. This was also part of Walt's original idea for WDW. Some of the very early drawings show a retirement area, and a residential area as well.

[valjane]

Disney usually does things the right way.

Now, that's funny. :laughing:


:tiptoe:

[Ed]

...Disney usually does things the right way. I really do not see the difference between this and Celebration, other than this being on a smaller scale.

The key word there, of course, is "usually". Not "always", but "usually".

There's quite a bit of difference between this and Celebration. Celebration is located well off the parks property, with two busy highways, I-4 and 192, separating them. It is a separate and distinct area. This new development area is right next door to Fort Wilderness, and there are many WDW support facilities immediately adjacent to it. Immediately south of the area is Port Orleans.

[Hammer]

The key word there, of course, is "usually". Not "always", but "usually".

There's quite a bit of difference between this and Celebration. Celebration is located well off the parks property, with two busy highways, I-4 and 192, separating them. It is a separate and distinct area. This new development area is right next door to Fort Wilderness, and there are many WDW support facilities immediately adjacent to it. Immediately south of the area is Port Orleans.



This was also part of Walt's original idea for WDW. Some of the very early drawings show a retirement area, and a residential area as well.

Ed, this poster brings up a good point. Lots of people keep saying that Walt is turning in his grave, but I take a bit of different view. As Walt had originally planned to have residential communities as part of WDW, we probably would have seen this community sprout up in the 1980's had he lived past 1966.

[HallandNash]

This sets a dangerous precedent and does irreparable damage to WDW IMHO. :( Not cool.

[CaptainJessicaSparrow]

I was waiting for someone to bring up those communities. I tend to think these additions will not be extremely noticeable to the majority of the WDW vacationing public. The people who stay and live in these sort of places value privacy above all else. They don't want to see us any more than we want to see them.

While I think the Four Seasons hotel on property fills a need which Disney does not have the manpower nor is structured to provide, I'm not crazy about the expansion into making it part of their Private Residences collection.

I like how other than you, no one acknowledges I said this. It's like they refuse to believe that it's already happened. Lol.

[GrumpyFan]

As Walt had originally planned to have residential communities as part of WDW, we probably would have seen this community sprout up in the 1980's had he lived past 1966.

Everybody seems to be forgetting Celebration! It was built and owned primarily by Disney for a while and is (was) on Disney property and directly connected to WDW. When they built Celebration it was enough out of the way of mainstream guests that many still don't know about it or where it is.



IF they move forward with this idea, and it's done right, it could have the same effect as Celebration. According to the article:
The homes, mostly single-family residences but including a few condominiums and time-share units, would rise from what was Disney's Eagle Pines Golf Course -- just a jog away from the Magic Kingdom, Epcot and Downtown Disney. The adjacent Osprey Ridge Golf Course would be incorporated into the private development, now called the "Northeast Resort." If this is the case, then the averarage guest won't even see this, as it's off the main roadways for WDW. So, what's the big deal? I think everybody is over-reacting to this.

[TexasPrincessAurora]

I'll ask again based on the post above. Have they closed Eagle Pines Golf Course? Are they going to close Osprey Ridge? Are they planning replacement courses?

[GrumpyFan]

I'll ask again based on the post above. Have they closed Eagle Pines Golf Course? Are they going to close Osprey Ridge? Are they planning replacement courses?

Eagle Pines is NOT listed on Disney's web-site, so the assumption is yes, they've closed it. I seem to remember reading when the initial announcement for the Four Seasons came out, there was some mention of these courses being re-worked to fit in and-or around this resort.

[Ed]

If this is the case, then the averarage guest won't even see this, as it's off the main roadways for WDW. So, what's the big deal? I think everybody is over-reacting to this.

The "big deal" is that this could very well be the first of several such developments in the future. It's a first step toward chipping away from the property that was designed to be part of the parks and resorts, a major part of which is open, undeveloped land. Celebration is more of what I believe Walt had in mind - Disney quality but not eroding the lure of the parks and resorts. I simply view the whole thing as a bad omen of things yet to come.



I'll ask again based on the post above. Have they closed Eagle Pines Golf Course? Are they going to close Osprey Ridge? Are they planning replacement courses?

Sorry - I missed that the first time around. Yes, Eagle Pines has been closed for several months, and as I posted a few days ago they are in the process of regrading the land and establishing staging areas for heavy equipment. I haven't heard anything about Osprey Ridge, nor have I gotten any info about a possible replacement for Eagle Pines elsewhere on the property.

[TexasPrincessAurora]

Too bad about the golf courses...DH always loves playing golf there. I'm sure going from 5 courses to 4 or possibly 3 will make it tougher to get a tee time. Thanks for the info! :-)

[GrumpyFan]

The "big deal" is that this could very well be the first of several such developments in the future. It's a first step toward chipping away from the property that was designed to be part of the parks and resorts, a major part of which is open, undeveloped land. I simply view the whole thing as a bad omen of things yet to come.

I agree, it "could be", but we don't know yet. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not in favor of the them selling off any of the land. I have this bad vision of WDW and Orlando in 50 years looking something like Las Vegas, hopefully not, but like I said, it's a bad vision. But, from the moves they've made in the past few years, they really appear to be looking at what they have and trying to figure out how it can best be leveraged to generate revenue. This would appear to be just another of those steps.

[CaptainJessicaSparrow]

And yet everyone still ignores me saying that THERE ARE ALREADY HOMES ON DISNEY PROPERTY.

THERE ARE SEVERAL, RIGHT BEHIND MAGIC KINGDOM'S CAST PARKING.

Apartment housings, townhouses, and condos. They are already there. Follow the road back behind Space Mountain and turn right just past the train tracks for the park. Drive down that road until you reach a road where you can only go left or right. Turn right and follow the road around and tell me how many homes you see. Turn left and see how many more.

Besides, it was Walt's vision anyway. He wanted a living community where science and innovation met the fun of a theme park. I think you guys need to ride TTA more and look at the model they had made.

[BrerGnat]

And yet everyone still ignores me saying that THERE ARE ALREADY HOMES ON DISNEY PROPERTY.

THERE ARE SEVERAL, RIGHT BEHIND MAGIC KINGDOM'S CAST PARKING.

Apartment housings, townhouses, and condos. They are already there. Follow the road back behind Space Mountain and turn right just past the train tracks for the park. Drive down that road until you reach a road where you can only go left or right. Turn right and follow the road around and tell me how many homes you see. Turn left and see how many more.

Besides, it was Walt's vision anyway. He wanted a living community where science and innovation met the fun of a theme park. I think you guys need to ride TTA more and look at the model they had made.

I've not ignored you. You make a good point. I think the problem MOST people on here have is that this land being used for this new project is more "in the middle" of WDW property. As mentioned, it is directly southeast of Ft. Wilderness and north of POR. It is, essentially, bordered on 3 sides by Disney guest areas.

The homes you speak of are North of the MK. This is an area that guests never go to. The Disney transport does not run past this area. Normal WDW visitors don't know it's there because they NEVER see it. This other area, however, will be more visible, and more "intrusive".

All that said, however, I wonder why more peopl e weren't this upset about the Four Seasons announcement? This is just an expansion of that idea. They had long ago decided to sell the land off to Four Seasons for development, no? I can't imagine the Four Seasons would agree to develop on land OWNED and CONTROLLED by WDW...annexing the land probably was always part of the deal, although Disney may have led us to believe otherwise...

I'm sure that this community will be very nice, tastefully executed, and surrounded enough by landscaping and walls/gates as to maintain privacy for its residents. As such, "we" won't really see any of it.

I have to honestly say, this doesn't really bother me that much. Now, if they started building track home developments along World Drive...well then we'd have an issue. Some mansions and multi million dollar luxury condos in a little corner of the World that I never go to...not a big deal. I'm sure that those houses will be nicer than many of the "service buildings" already on property. They will hardly be "eyesores".

And, you can add me to the list of people who would purchase one of these mansions in a SECOND, if I had that kind of money. Now THAT is what I call a "prime location".

[DNS]

This is just ridiculous in my opinion! I can't imagine that Walt had people buying up all this property just to have luxury housing built. Or any housing. This is such a turn in the wrong direction to me. How very, very sad. This property should be all about WDW, conservation acreage and a very large buffer zone. No more housing. :(

[GrumpyFan]

This is just ridiculous in my opinion! I can't imagine that Walt had people buying up all this property just to have luxury housing built. Or any housing. This is such a turn in the wrong direction to me. How very, very sad. This property should be all about WDW, conservation acreage and a very large buffer zone. No more housing. :(

No offense, but this argument is used a lot, (I've used it too) but in truth, very little of the current version of Walt Disney World resembles Walt's original intent for the "Florida Project". If the original plans had been fulfilled to Walt's intent, there would be something of sorts resembling some of the buildings being erected in Dubai right now.

[Brian]

My concern isn't that the property will be in or out of view. My concern is that this is 500 acres that Disney will never control again. It's 500 acres that will never become another theme park, Disney resort, water park, or something else that only Imagineering can dream up. Instead, it will become the same thing most of us see when we walk out the door every morning... a housing development.

I realize Walt had plans to have people living in WDW. However, compare his plans to a run-of-the-mill housing development. There's a big difference. If you have the Walt Disney Treasures DVD that shows the full episode of his vision for EPCOT, you'll see what I mean.

Out of curiosity, others here have mentioned housing developments near the Magic Kingdom cast parking. Are these developments that happen to be very close to Disney property? Or, are they developments on land that was once part of WDW?

[CaptainJessicaSparrow]

My concern isn't that the property will be in or out of view. My concern is that this is 500 acres that Disney will never control again. It's 500 acres that will never become another theme park, Disney resort, water park, or something else that only Imagineering can dream up. Instead, it will become the same thing most of us see when we walk out the door every morning... a housing development.

Out of curiosity, others here have mentioned housing developments near the Magic Kingdom cast parking. Are these developments that happen to be very close to Disney property? Or, are they developments on land that was once part of WDW?

500 acres is roughly the size of AK. It's not all that much, really. WDW is only 1/3 developed....leaving another 1/3 left to double the same size if they still honor Walt's 1/3 to converation.

And those developments are on Disney property. Or just past the boundary lines, as there are several in different directions. But take any of the back roads and you'll find them.

[drummerboy]

I wonder how this will impact the pseudo govt Disney has. As permanent residents, they will have the ability to vote for the representatives, or at least that's how I understand it.
That's why they would de-annex the property, so the new residents would not have a vote in Reedy Creek.


It's major tax dollars coming from multi-million dollar homes, but minimal services going out because the homes will only be used a few weeks a year.
Surely you don't think the houses would go unrented for the rest of the year? Somebody not be able to afford to buy a multi-million dollar home, but they might splurge to rent one for a week or two.


Flooding can also become a problem due to development. Property Devolopement causes the rain to have no where to rain as it has nowhere to go from cement housing. Next thing you know the houses will be flooded and the owners will be suing or complaining to Disney about their house. A golf course has national runoff from grass, trees and soil.
I imagine they will have to have containment ponds as part of the landscape.

Remember that Walt planned EPCOT as an entire residential city in the middle of the Florida Project, and he meant for it to be highly visible.

Also, the original golf course 'tree houses' were meant to be sold at first. In fact, there were many residential projects in the works long ago, but then planners realized that the residents would have to be allowed to vote. Looks like somebody finally came up with the solution of de-annexing and giving the county the headaches.

Having said all that, I don't like the idea either. I wonder how long it well take them to decide that they could make more money from selling luxury properties where FW now stands.

[Ian]

My concern isn't that the property will be in or out of view. My concern is that this is 500 acres that Disney will never control again. It's 500 acres that will never become another theme park, Disney resort, water park, or something else that only Imagineering can dream up. Instead, it will become the same thing most of us see when we walk out the door every morning... a housing development.Honestly, that's really the least of my worries.

People can smack me if they want, but I personally hope Disney never develops another theme park in WDW. They're way too overdeveloped now and stretched way too thin. They can't even come close to staffing what they have ... can you imagine trying to find another couple thousand people who are up to even the drastically lowered standards Disney has today??

No thanks ... build out what you have and leave the rest as-is. Or sell it off ... I don't really care. But whatever you do please DON'T build another theme park!

[trackbarroness]

Jessica is right about the housing behind the MK Cast parking. There is an apartment complex right accross the entrance to one. And their building more along the road that I travel to and from the Cast parking lot.

[Brian]

People can smack me if they want, but I personally hope Disney never develops another theme park in WDW. They're way too overdeveloped now and stretched way too thin. They can't even come close to staffing what they have ... can you imagine trying to find another couple thousand people who are up to even the drastically lowered standards Disney has today??

True, but what about 10, 20, or 30 years from now?

What it boils down to for me is, this is land that Disney will never get back. Whether it is left untouched or developed into another resort or attraction, it's the continued shrinking of Walt Disney World that disgusts me. 5,000 acres were chopped off for Celebration. 500 acres are being sold off for this deal. There have been other stories in the past about land being sold off in other areas of the property. At what point does it stop?

[GrumpyFan]

People can smack me if they want, but I personally hope Disney never develops another theme park in WDW. They're way too overdeveloped now and stretched way too thin. They can't even come close to staffing what they have ... can you imagine trying to find another couple thousand people who are up to even the drastically lowered standards Disney has today??

Okay, SMACK!

Seriously though, interesting perspective. And for now, I would have to agree with you. They're stretched pretty thin at the moment with quality cast members being in the minority. And then there's also the transportation problems that are only going to get worse. But, I have to agree also with Brian and his question regarding years down the road. Orlando is showing no signs of slowing in its development, and eventually, they're going to have to do something whether its an expansion or just raise prices to the point where they can hire quality CMs and deters a large enough number of people to be manageable.

There's a balance there somewhere and it's delicate. Based on history, I think the years to come will only see continued growth in both crowd numbers and other projects outside of WDW. I believe this trend will eventually force them to do something to keep up. But, I think for the moment they're okay with what they have as long as they manage it properly.

Side-related note:
Apparently, I'm a real Disney geek. :blush: I put together a spreadsheet based on information I found on the Internet with running totals of the parks, dating back to 1998. In doing so, I dicsovered a few interesting details (to me at least).

In 1998, crowds totaled 35.6 mllion (est)
In 2007, crowds totaled 46.8 million (est)
Total growth rate from 1998 to 2007 was 31.4%
Daily average attendance in 1998 was 97,500
Daily average attendance in 2007 was 128,200
Average annual growth rate is around 3%
Average per park attendance in 1998 was 32,500 (3 parks)
Average per park attendance in 2007 was 32,000 (4 parks)The most interesting fact in those numbers is the last two. Animal Kingdom opened In 1998 and the daily average per park attendance across 3 parks was 32,500. But, it only opened in April, so the numbers for that year are somewhat skewed. However, 10 years later, the average daily numbers are now, once again at 32,000 across 4 parks. The point here is that eventually, the numbers will almost dictate some kind of expansion.

If you're interested in seeing my spreadsheet and/or checking my math, send me a PM or email and I'll be glad to send it to you. I could use some help with some of the older numbers.

[doodleboy]

And yet everyone still ignores me saying that THERE ARE ALREADY HOMES ON DISNEY PROPERTY.

THERE ARE SEVERAL, RIGHT BEHIND MAGIC KINGDOM'S CAST PARKING.

Apartment housings, townhouses, and condos. They are already there. Follow the road back behind Space Mountain and turn right just past the train tracks for the park. Drive down that road until you reach a road where you can only go left or right. Turn right and follow the road around and tell me how many homes you see. Turn left and see how many more.

Besides, it was Walt's vision anyway. He wanted a living community where science and innovation met the fun of a theme park. I think you guys need to ride TTA more and look at the model they had made.

I see what you are saying. There is some housing on Reams Rd., but that is outside the perimeter of the property. This is going to be moving the property line in an itrusive way into the current operations. POR is just to the southeast, and FW just to the west. It puts two Disney resorts right on the outskirts of the property. I find it hard to believe that anyone staying at either of these resorts won't be able to see the new housing. Based on where Osprey Ridge is placed, I cannot see why that would not go too.

Where is the Four Seasons going to be in respect to this development? Will it also be on the old Eagle Pines? I was under the impression it would be closer to Downtown area. Can anyone tell me where to find the current property lines for WDW propterty. I have no idea how much land there actually is at present time.

This site is a blessing and a curse. I love all of the information, but sometimes I think ignorance is bliss. I don't want all of this negative information to skew my perception of the "happiest place on earth".

[doodleboy]

This is just ridiculous in my opinion! I can't imagine that Walt had people buying up all this property just to have luxury housing built. Or any housing. This is such a turn in the wrong direction to me. How very, very sad. This property should be all about WDW, conservation acreage and a very large buffer zone. No more housing. :(


I have to totally agree with you. I have been to DL a couple of times and never felt as separated from the world as I do at WDW. At DL I always knew that the outside world was very nearby, and it took away from the experience. It feels more like a theme park that you might visit for a day or two than a vacation experience. I like the buffer zone that all of that property offers, and if that starts to disappear I will stop visiting. There are lots of other places to go in this world, maybe this will force me to visit them.

[Ian]

Orlando is showing no signs of slowing in its development, and eventually, they're going to have to do something whether its an expansion or just raise prices to the point where they can hire quality CMs and deters a large enough number of people to be manageable.They may expand, but I don't know that you'll see anything comparable to the four theme parks they already have. I suspect any new additions will either be water parks (where, quite honestly, CM interaction is very limited) or boutique parks like Jim Hill described with the Night Kingdom.

In a place like that, the added revenue from the high admission costs will allow them to pay a higher wage and draw better cast. I suspect that's the way any future expansion in WDW will go.

[GothMickey]

Remember, this is only under review and may never come to pass. Also, the property itself is out of the way and shouldn't be intrusive at all. Really, would driving to the Magic Kingdom and seeing a few houses really hinder you and ruin your vacation?

Jessica, aren't you talking about Buene Vista Place? I looked at that place during my last trip. I liked the area. Really nice. Considering moving there just to have the MK in my back yard.

[Stickey]

The plan for this project is very disturbing. It appears that Disney management is seeking quick sources of cash flow, with little consideration of the impact, or future of WDW.
Sound decision-making requires a thorough analysis of the current and future marketability of the WDW property.

I am concerned by this sell-off trend. The greater Four Seasons project was the first step. From a financial perspective, it is profitable to shift the cost of developing your property to outside companies, as there will be little, or no imagineering expenses. The Four Seasons will provide a true deluxe resort on site. The proposed low-end rooms, retail, and residential units do not plus the WDW experience. Will traffic jams be far behind if this trend continues?

What controls are in place to deter this sell-off trend? Profits will increase, thus pleasing management, shareholders, and Wall Street. Why not continue this winning strategy? Perhaps some more ambitious projects will be planned. We could see World Showcase Village, a luxury condo project located inside Epcot's WS. Why not replace Ft. Wilderness with a new private home community?

I fully support Disney management's objective to increase revenues, however this must be done through careful planning and an emphasis on preserving Walt's ideals. Yes, I do hold Disney to a higher standard than other corporations. There are many ways to maximize revenues that do not require sacrificing Disney magic for short-term gains.

[bleukarma]

I have mixed feelings about this. At first I was disturbed because Walt bought up all this land so WDW wouldn’t become another DL…he wanted it to feel truly like you were entering another place. But then I realized just how much land Walt bought up and unless I plan to take a tour of the community, I probably would never see it. Just like Jessica mentioned, housing is already located in WDW and it doesn’t even get noticed. What else are they going to do with the land? Just like Ian said, I don’t know if I would want another theme park. It’s hard enough to see everything WDW has to offer anyway.

The thing that bothers me is they are annexing land that Walt himself bought and handing it over to the county. The county can do anything they want to do on that land and they don’t have to keep WDW in mind when they are doing it. I live inside county lines (a few counties away) and all it takes is a few wacky councilmen to really mess things up. Some of my best friends work for the county and some of the stories I hear are mind-boggling. I don’t think that Walt went to all the trouble to buy this land, just to have it handed over to Orange County a few decades later. Celebration is still owned by Disney (as far as I know it is ran by a board of directors that are employed by Disney) but this new Orange County project…I have to raise my eyebrows at.

As far as Orlando expanding…yes it is. I live between Tampa and Orlando and every day I see that gap getting smaller. What was once rural area’s is now very much residential and commercial property. One day there will not be a gap, except for maybe the land that Disney owns. But if the CEO’s keep making deals like this then even that may not be true.

[Ian]

Remember, this is only under review and may never come to pass.Actually, if I'm reading the article correctly and based on what Ed said it seems like it's well beyond that point. Ed says construction is already under way.

[doodleboy]

Celebration is still owned by Disney (as far as I know it is ran by a board of directors that are employed by Disney) but this new Orange County project…I have to raise my eyebrows at. [/FONT]

I thought Celebration was split off from Disney. I am confused on this one. Can I buy a home there, or just lease? I need to take a ride during my May trip to check it out.

Also, who will own the property that the Four Seasons is developing, all of the other budget hotel/motels, and retail. Is that being sold off as well?

[Brian]

I thought Celebration was split off from Disney. I am confused on this one. Can I buy a home there, or just lease? I need to take a ride during my May trip to check it out.

Celebration is no longer part of Disney. You can buy a home there.

[CaptainDisney]

LONG POST ALERT

No one has brought up the western way expansion (aka Flamingo Crossing) or the ever-expanding Bonnet Creek Resort. Disney is selling its land to the North, South, East and West. None of us are really being factual when we blurt out something like, "WDW is twice the size of the island of Manhattan." I've said this in the recent past, and heard it from other guests and CMs alike. It really isn't true. Walt Disney uttered those statements in the 60s when he bought the land, and we know Disney has sold off and deannexed much of it (most significantly, the land for Celebration).

If you're a huge Disney Dork and want to explore some of the ways Disney calculates its available land (through the RCID), visit the RCID website (the first site that comes up on a Google search for "RCID") and click on the tab on top called "2008 Comp Plan." You can find PDF files with every imaginable aspect of future land usage and other governance for Reedy Creek's "landowners" (read: Disney).

There are maps where you can see just how little land there is left for major development. Disney takes the official position that much of its land (as much as 2/3) is not yet developed. This is misleading. The rules are stretched here, because the RCID apparently counts any tree or swath of grass beyond the berm of a theme park as "open land" (this includes golf courses, by the way). Also, much of the open land is permanently set aside for conservation. And lastly, these estimates include the vast Disney-owned green belt that surrounds celebration. This land is not prime for any WDW development.

At any rate, it is interesting to me how sacrosanct Disney is to many people on these boards (myself included). It is likely that we will never have to see any effects of this proposed housing development if we don't want to; it will likely not make any impact to the average Disney vacation. So many of us are still upset, though. We cry foul whenever it is even suggested that Disney might be "losing control" of its land. This is based on the well-founded idea that Walt Disney himself would be appalled at the shrinking property boundaries.

Disney is doing what makes sound business sense. After all, the company made the land worth what is it worth. In business terms, the company is simply cashing in on a very good real estate investment. As I've said before, Disney operates in the real world, even though we'd like to think otherwise.

I am disappointed by this recent news, as I am disappointed every time I see the Bonnet Creek construction cranes off I-4 or every time I pass the WDW Swan/Dolphin. My point is that we shouldn't expect this kind of thing to stop happening.

[murphy1]

Celebration isn't owned by Disney anymore. Just make sure you see that 192 is right out your back yard.

[Brian]

I am disappointed by this recent news, as I am disappointed every time I see the Bonnet Creek construction cranes off I-4 or every time I pass the WDW Swan/Dolphin. My point is that we shouldn't expect this kind of thing to stop happening.

Excellent post!

I wanted to comment on your final paragraph, though. Bonnet Creek doesn't bother me. To my understanding, this is on land that was never owned by Disney (now or 40 years ago) and wasn't up for sale so Disney could buy it.

The other thing that doesn't bother me is the Swan and Dolphin. My understanding is that the land (or maybe even the building) is leased from Disney. At some point, even if it's 99 years in the future, Disney can say "we have better ideas for this land and want you out".

My real concern is when Disney actually sells off the land. In other words, gives up total control, as they did with Celebration and will be doing with this new project. If you told me that Disney was building multi-million dollar homes that they would lease or rent out, it wouldn't bother me. It's the fact that this land will be gone forever that ticks me off.

Is the Western Way project the same way? Is Disney selling this land? Or, is Disney leasing it out?

[Hair_Razor]

I agree with Brian (obviously), I was also under the impression that Bonnet Creek was not ever Disney property.

[doodleboy]

Does anyone really know how much property WD purchsed? I have heard around 27,000 acres and an additional 3,000 at a later date. Is this true?

How much is actually left, even befor the 500 acres go to this latest Four Seasons and small community project?

How much was set aside for conservation, and can't that be changed if the powers that be decide they would like to cash in on that as well?

[Ian]

The original purchase totaled approximately 27,400 acres. According to Wikipedia, the current size is approximately 25,000 acres ...


The 25,000 acre (101 km²) site is accessible from Central Florida's Interstate 4 via Exits 62B (World Drive), 64B (US 192 West), 65B (Osceola Parkway West), 67B (SR 536 West), and 68 (SR 535 North), and Exit 8 on State Road 429 (Florida), the Western Expressway.

At its peak, the resort occupied approximately 30,000 acres or 47 square miles (120 km²), about the size of San Francisco, or twice the size of Manhattan. Portions of the property since have been sold or de-annexed, including land now occupied by the Disney-built community of Celebration.

[doodleboy]

The original purchase totaled approximately 27,400 acres. According to Wikipedia, the current size is approximately 25,000 acres ...

So in the grand scheme of things, what's another 500 acres. I know many of you would like to shoot me for that comment. And I don't really like it either, but a good chunk of this was already going to the Four Seasons (not sure of official name) project and it is on the outskirts of the property. Maybe WDW saw this as unusable for their own development and decided to cut dead weight. I like to think of WDW as a place I can visit a couple of times a year and be secluded from the outside world, but the Disney Corporation sees it as a place that generates capital for stockholders. I do think that Walt would have been upset, but that goes for many decisions made by the company named after him in the last decade or so.

My attitude going forward as a DVC owner is that I will continue to visit until I feel the magic is completely gone, then I will move on. And I must say with the CM's I have encountered lately, that may not be long. But that's another thread.