Interesting Rumors for WDW

[Strmchsr]

Lots of interesting rumors coming out of WDI. Per our TOS, I can't post the link, but this is a pretty reliable source so here's an insider's thoughts on the matter:


I like what is happening with the restructuring within the walls of 1401 Flower Street. As some of you may have already heard, former Research and Development Vice President Bruce Vaughn is now in the position that Chief Creative Executive Tom Fitzgerald. Vaughn is well liked within the company and a strong advocate of the creative process over the bureacratic process that has built up under Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald will still be working at WDI focusing on the oversight of show development, story integration and uh, um "blue sky" brainstorming process.

Craig Russell, former Vice President of Environmental Design and Show Engineering is now Chief Design and Delivery Executive at WDI. The former WDI President Don Goodman moves out of WDI and into his new role as executive Vice President for resort development. His position is something akin to recreating the Disney Development Company that designed the hotels for the company in the 80's before Eisner combined it with the rest of Imagineering. It appears that it will still be part of the company, but a seperate unit ran by Goodman and the very well liked, Wing Chao. The role Goodman had as President will not be refilled. Some people think that John Lasseter will partially take over this job in an unofficial capacity.

The new structure is great because it will do for WDI what Lasseter and Catmull have done for WDAS, with is to eliminate the layers of bureacracy and middle management that the creatives have to go through to get something done. From now on, Tony Baxter, Joe Rohde and Joe Lanzisero along with other Creative Executives will report directly to Vaughn. As Jim Hill reported, one of Vaughn's comments were "we are no longer going to design rides we don't build". This could be great news since WDI literally designs hundreds upon hundreds of attractions that literally never see the light of day. Unless the Oriental Land Company builds them, of course. This offers a light of hope on projects that got stuck in the approval process over the years because of political back stabbing, but the road ahead is not yet clear so we'll have to wait and let the dust settle. A whole new world may have opened up for Walt Disney Imagineering though...

A lot is going on at the Reedy Creek Improvement District, aka: Walt Disney World. The Walt Disney Company is trying to maximize it's profits without having to put a great deal more expense which is why we heard the announcement of those two projects that would be on the property, but not created by the property. With the Four Seasons at WDW and the Westward Way expansion, they intend on getting as much out of partnering with others while not having to incure the expense associated with the new hotels, shopping centers and developed co-ops.

As for what Disney themselves are doing, we have the progression of the DVC units being build near the Animal Kingdom Lodge and the new addition to the Contemporary that some have dubbed: the Watergate Tower. While I may not be estatic about the look of the tower, I don't take as much offense as other to the design. The Animal Kingdom DVC expansion is something I absolutely love, on the other hand.

There are two other properties being looked at for DVC opportunities, but it's in the early phase and will likely not see any announcements until late 2009.

A new, third themed water park is making its way through the approval process. It still has a long ways to go but the plans right now will have it tie the park in with some of Disney's cinematic properties if all is approved. Don't expect to hear anything publicly about this till sometime in mid 2008 at the earliest.

Despite everyone being depressed about the company announcing no current plans for a "Fifth Gate" in the current future, that doesn't mean ideas aren't being discussed. There is plenty of land for future use. Enough in the southern section for at least two full size parks if they are ever approved. There are "blue sky" proposals for a new park. Actually, three have been seen in the halls of WDI. These projects that are in the embryonic proposal phase and could wind up as a fifth park or serve as inspiration for Hong Kong's second gate or even Tokyo. Should the economy keep firing on all cylinders, the proposals will be narrowed down and one could look for an announcement near the beginning of the next decade. That puts the completion of a fifth park somewhere in the ball park of 2014-2015. Just in time for the preperations for the 45th anniversary of the park. How coincidental? Hmmm...

MAGIC KINGDOM

The Magic Kingdom is the park with the least going on. At least from my sources at WDI. This could all be thrown around now that the new structure is being put in place over on Flower Street, but the full effect of the reorganization won't be clear until summer is over. As for now, there are proposals for a new parade that would corrispond with some additional entertainment, but otherwise the next "E" ticket isn't planned for at least 2009. Lasseter and crew have a couple propsals that are being pitched about but nothing is concrete at the moment. As far as it being a Pixar ride, I'm sure some of you are thinking of asking... well, as of now the proposal's don't involve creations from Disney's Emeryville branch. In fact, of the two proposals my sources know of, one involves a "classic" Disney character and the other is something entirely different. Hopefully, if Disneyland's new Christmas overlay works out well it will be applied to Orlando's castle as well, but we won't know for sure till early next year.

EPCOT

By now, everyone knows that Epcot's Spaceship Earth will open next year with a brand new interior and from what people have seen so far it's a great redo. From one of my sources, the new attraction will really entertain guest in the best "Epcot" way. Talk continues about "THE WAND" coming down. The decision hasn't been made official, but signs are good that it could come down by next year... so cross your fingers. There are a couple prominent ideas for Epcot's next "E" ticket, but within departments, it won't see daylight till 2010 probably.

Over in World Showcase, there is a faction within WDI that wants to address some of the eyesores that disrupt the view of the lands. No, I'm not talking about the Dolphin and Swan... that requires more radical surgery. But there is momentum from a group of Imagineers to reintroduce a proposal to retheme the back of Soarin' to the Canadian Rockies which would hide the show building and give the area another "E" ticket ride simular to DCA's GRR. Other areas are supposed to be addressed if the plan goes through, again... these are "blue sky" proposal's so it'll all depend on the new management and how much they desire to fix the mistakes of the past.

DISNEY-PIXAR STUDIOS

Disney-MGM Studios, or as we will be calling it soon, Disney-Pixar Studios has the most promising future ahead of it. With the park meandering as to what it's identity has been over the last few years it is slated to get a good deal of attention over the next couple years. The name will not be the only rebranding of the park. A direction as to what kind of park it is will begin in the fall with the expected announcement of the name change. Once that is done there will be some major changes in theme and design in various parts of the studio. Lasseter himself has expressed an interest in refocusing the park towards a much more family friendly movie experience. Expect at least one and possibly two "E" tickets and two to four "C" or "D" tickets to be approved in the next year or so that will focus on making the experience one has when entering the former MGM park, a truly memorable one. Some of these projects will have a direct impact on WDW's sister park in Anaheim. What projects am I talking about. Well let me just give you their innitials... ST 2.0 and IJ4. How's that for a tease? These will be a huge draw for the studio when all this is said and done around... 2011. There's that year again. Sorry, my lips are sealed. There'll be nothing else for now...

The results of Epedition Everest are a great sign for Animal Kingdom. However, the high expense of the ride itself has been an inhibitor in bringing forward that most holy grail of DAK projects: Beastly Kingdom. There is still a small group within WDI that wants to do BK, but the amount of money it will cost has many managers hesitant to put that much capital into such an attraction. The wildcard in this is Lasseter. While it is not known if he will champion BK, he is much in favor of creating rides that immerse the guest and doesn't seem interested in throwing out mediocre attractions to simply have WDI keep busy. There are Imagineers who have been trying to get one of several small scale theming proposals for Dinoland approved, but under the old management the approval was moving at a snails pace. Perhaps the new leadership will allow these blue sky proposals which would take away the gharish, carnival atmosphere and give the area a more atmospheric touch to move forward? Clearly the days of Paul Pressler are over. The recent changes in WDI and the rising stock of Joe Rohde could bring BK out of the shadows and onto the fast track. At the very least, Joe's position means DAK will be receiving a disproportional amount of attention over the next few years.

Well, that's all I can relate without getting caught in Disney's dragnet or having my friends shot. Hope you enjoyed it. Stay tuned for more updates later in June..."

[DrumTastik]

Thanks for posting. There does seem to be a lot of excitement these days coming from WDI.

[Stickey]

It will be interesting to see which proposed projects become a reality. Proactive imagineering is very positive to the future of WDW.

Disney Studios definitely needs the most attention, these new ideas will help complete this park. The next Star Tours and a new Indy attraction are a great start.

The wand should stay.

[mjstaceyuofm]

Ooooh. Rumors! I like..... :thumbsup:

My take on things is that while the re-organization at WDI should have benefits to WDW down the road, the actual management team at Disney Parks and especially WDW had better get their act straight as far as maintenance, operations and offerings are concerned in the here and now.

So many rides at the parks have become stale and in need of maintenance and refreshing it's un-conscionable. Service has slipped and the grounds all over WDW need a heck of a lot more maintenance and care.

Hopefully this is a step in the right direction.

[Ian]

I'm fine with the wand, too, but wouldn't care either if they took it down.

Now the hat is another story ... :ack:

Anyway, I wonder if they've noticed declining attendance at the Studios or something. It does seem like they've really got it in their sights for some heavy duty work.

Too bad they wasted all that space on LMA ... I'm not at all a fan of it and think they could have done something MUCH better with that area.

I'm excited for the new Toy Story Midway Mania, though. That should be cool.

Edited to add that I agree with Matt about taking care of the current state of affairs at WDW being just as important as taking care of the future.

[mjstaceyuofm]

The wand should stay.
:sick: :down: :nono: :sorry: :noway: :eek:

No way it should stay. Are you kidding me?

[BelleBeauty]

Great info - or dreams - thanks for posting!

[GrumpyFan]

:sick: :down: :nono: :sorry: :noway: :eek:

No way it should stay. Are you kidding me?

PLLLEEASE!!!! I beg you... let's not turn this into another discussion/debate of Epcot's wand! We've been over it TOOO many times already!

Thanks Strmchsr for the great update. There's some potentially juicy bits of information in there. Glad to here that the Studios are going to get some desperately needed attention. I really wish they would devote some more attention to Epcot/World Showcase by adding another ride/show. It could use it, but probably not as much as the studios.

It's neat to hear about the possibility of a third water park, hopefully it gets approved. It's also neat to hear that they are at least thinking about the 5th gate. With all of the new hotels that will be added on property in the next 10 years (Four Seasons, Western Way and the continued DVC expansion), they will definitely need more attractions to meet the demand.

I have one question though, are there any plans to finish Pop Century (this Century)?

[Speedy1998]

Anyway, I wonder if they've noticed declining attendance at the Studios or something. It does seem like they've really got it in their sights for some heavy duty work.
.

Actually Attendance at all the Disney parks was up last year, according to a TEA report.

http://www.connectingindustry.com/pd...tendance06.pdf

I think this more likely has to do with IOA getting building a Harry Potter land. Like I posted on the other thread a little competition is a good thing.

[Deesdisney]

Those are the rumours I love to dream about. :cloud9:

[Strmchsr]

I have one question though, are there any plans to finish Pop Century (this Century)?

From what my friends have told me, everything is on hold while the restructuring takes place and the new management has time to lay out their master plan. Hopefully something re: POP will come down the pipeline soon.

[BrerSchultzy]

I think these rumors address almost every single wish us Intercotees have (except for the Free admission and hotel rooms for all members of Intercot...I haven't heard Disney address THAT wish yet).

I desperately hope this is all true. Sounds like the early 2010s should feel a lot like the mid 90s...LOTS of new stuff, and a whole bunch of magic floating around in the air.

[GrumpyFan]

I think these rumors address almost every single wish us Intercotees have (except for the Free admission and hotel rooms for all members of Intercot...I haven't heard Disney address THAT wish yet).


Sounds more like a dream than a wish. ;)

[Strmchsr]

Sounds more like a dream than a wish. ;)

Well, isn't a dream a wish your heart makes? :mickey:

[pshokie]

When your fast asleep....


Come on everybody, join in!

[TinkiTime1989]

In dreams you will lose your heartache
Whatever you wish for you keep

lol i couldn't resist!:blush:

[joelkfla]

IMHO, Joe Rohde is a genius and should be running the place. It's good to hear he's being recognized.

[TiggerRPh]

I'm fine with the wand, too, but wouldn't care either if they took it down.

Now the hat is another story ... :ack:

Anyway, I wonder if they've noticed declining attendance at the Studios or something. It does seem like they've really got it in their sights for some heavy duty work.

Too bad they wasted all that space on LMA ... I'm not at all a fan of it and think they could have done something MUCH better with that area.

I'm excited for the new Toy Story Midway Mania, though. That should be cool.

Edited to add that I agree with Matt about taking care of the current state of affairs at WDW being just as important as taking care of the future.

I could not agree with you more Ian.

[BrerGnat]

I'm also glad to hear that Joe Rhode is "movin on up". He is an inspiration to WDI.

I am also glad to hear that they have big plans for the Studios. That park is SO lame these days. I can honestly go to WDW and skip it and not feel like I missed anything...that's sad. I actually prefer AK to MGM and AK used to be my least favorite park. MGM definitely needs work, and it's good to hear that it will be getting its due.

I honestly think the MK is a "done" park, for the most part. I can't really imagine what else they could put in there. It's already crowded enough as it is. I think all three other parks need more work than MK, so it's good that they don't have plans for it in the immediate future.

I look forward to a third water park. I love the water parks, but the two they have are always too crowded to really enjoy them. Any guesses to the theme? I'm really thinking Pirates...that's the only "cinematic property" that is successful enough to base a water park on, unless they are talking something Pixar, but nothing really resonates with a water theme as much as Pirates.

What is the Christmas Overlay to the DL castle all about???? I haven't heard about this yet. :confused:

[Cinderelley]

. . . Have faith in your dreams and someday . . .:D

[Jeff]

Thanks for the info!

[Ian]

... unless they are talking something Pixar, but nothing really resonates with a water theme as much as Pirates.Yeah, that Finding Nemo movie ... not much water in that!

;)

[DisneyDudet]

Well,
I don't like the name change for the Studios.... You don't change any other park name...

And I do not like the idea of some new attractions, because they sometimes mean closing of current attractions.

I hope that this takes Disney in the right direction without messing too much with the current PARK-ness....er.... yeah!

And really, I'm kinda getting tired of Pixar... I'm ready for REAL animation...

[BrerGnat]

Yeah, that Finding Nemo movie ... not much water in that!

;)

Ok, you got me! I was racking my brain thinking "cinematic properties with water" and Nemo NEVER came up. I guess it's because with all the Nemo overload lately, I didn't think they'd actually consider that as a stand alone water park theme. I just don't think it has that sort of staying power. Plus, what kinds of rides would that park have? A "getting flushed down the toilet slide" (although, they DO have these in existence...it would be pretty funny to see a giant toilet at WDW).

You can really do so much more with a Pirate theme, and that is exactly what Legoland in CA is doing right now...making a Pirate Shores water park inside Legoland...I would like to see Disney be more creative, though. The Pirates theme is getting tired as well, at least in my mind.

[Ian]

I totally agree, Nat, but you know I had to razz you for that anyway, right?

I couldn't let a golden opportunity like that pass by unnoticed! :D

But yeah ... a pirates themed water park has a lot more upside vs. a Nemo one.

[Strmchsr]

Well,
I don't like the name change for the Studios.... You don't change any other park name...

They have to change the name. The naming rights with MGM have expired.

[BrerGnat]

Yeah, it can't be Disney MGM Studios anymore.

I sort of wonder why they are even keeping "studios" in the name...there aren't any actual productions done there anymore. However, I don't know what else they could call it. Disney Movieland? Disney Hollywood?

On the flip side, will there be enough Pixar in there to call it Disney-Pixar Studios??? With the exception of Midway Mania, and Pizza Planet, what else is there that is Pixar related? (meet and greets don't count!)

[psychotekkie]

I don't know but if they add any new Pixar characters for meet-n-greet, I wanna meet the white lamp. :)

[WEDTOPIA]

Some good wish list items floating around here.

Personally , I hope that WDI and Lasseter , put 100 % of there energy ,as far as WDW is concerned , towards enhancing the 4 existing parks. If I never heard another utterance about a fifth gate , it would be allright with me. It's never really been a money problem at Disney. It's been a people problem. Penny -pinching , mainstream, businessmen like Paul Pressler , who wouldn't know inspiration and creativity and magic if it bit them in their fat wallets.

Joe Rhode ? To me , he is the spiritual clone of Walt. He has so many fresh ideas buzzing around inside his head. This is the guy that Lasseter and Iger should take their inspiration from ,and run with it. I wouldn't mind seeing a guy like Rhode run the company. It would kind of be like it was when Walt ran the show. Come up with fantastic ideas ,and find a way to get it done. Inspire the team on. Bring out the best in them. And for cryin' out loud , don't use money restraints. This company is mega times more financially sound than at anytime when Walt Disney was in charge. And he always found a way.

As he said ," Quality will out ".

Without question ,the most important concept that has to become reality is the Beastly Kingdom. This is the most Disney-fied of any of the original Animal Kingdom plans . It has to be built !

In quick succession , the new creative forces at Disney should also consider the following : 1. a replacement or re-do for WoL 2. At least 2 new countries for World Showcase ,with rides. 3. A new and improved JII. 4. An audience participation sound show ( remember that ? ) at the Studios to replace Mr. Carey. 5. An actual attraction in the theater next door to Mr. Carey. 6. Stitch makeover. 7. A new attraction in the southeast corner of Tomorrowland. 8. One more E-ticket attraction at the Studios ( I'm talkin' full-blown, Disney old school , details galore style )

Of course ,the proposals for a Star Tours update and an Indiana Jones ride are very welcomed.
As is a possible 3rd water park.

The wand ? Is it really that much of a problem ? It's not an attraction. It's not taking up potential attraction space. It looks cool at night. I look at it this way -If it goes it goes . If it stays , it stays. To me ,It doesn't fall in the same league as the Pepto- bismol castle or that pointy hat which is blocking the best architectural design in the Studios. Bigger fish to fry.....

:mickey:

[LudwigVonDrake]

Sounds VERY interesting :smickey:

[jefmblrd]

Great stuff in this thread.

Of course they could always put Horizons 2 where WoL is.

[dolphinmickey9170]

This is so exciting....could we fast forward a few years?? I would like to see the "carnival" atmosphere in AK disappear....I hate it.

[mjstaceyuofm]

I actually love the idea of a 3rd water park. Both are so congested - even in the off-season that it's ridiculous. I'm fairly certain that the spreadsheet wonks at Disney could easily justify the dollars necessary to build the 3rd water park.

[Experiment626]

How about a water park with different areas themed to different Disney water based properties?

Little Mermaid
Finding Nemo
Pirates
Atlantis
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
Treasure Island

Imagine a park with all these as themed lands around a central icon like Maybe a Giant King Triton statue since he is the king of the sea

[BrerGnat]

I think they should consider a new water park themed around the Little Mermaid, due to the popularity of the Mermaid Lagoon over at Tokyo Disney Sea. It would be a good idea, since that movie is STILL so popular.

But, really, it's still all about Pirates these days...

[SpecJoe Magic]

I think that an official announcement of a third water park is likely to happen soon. As others have said, BB and TL and almost always crowded, and a third water park would definitely be successful. It wouldn't take near as much planning, land, and money as a fifth theme park, and it would recoup the costs associated with building and maintaining it very quickly.

[Queen Stephanie]

The future is a wonderful place to dream about when you have Disney included! :mickey:

[Ian]

I agree about a third water park. First off, building a water park is dirt cheap as compared to building a new theme park. You can throw one up for pocket change.

And the other two are always so ridiculously crowded ... there's clearly a huge market out there for a new water park. I wonder how much business Disney loses to Wet -n- Wild every day just because BB and TL are so packed?

[cvzdesign]

I don't know but if they add any new Pixar characters for meet-n-greet, I wanna meet the white lamp. :)


The white lamp's name is "Luxo Jr." by the way.

[beachezncream]

whats WoL?

I feel so stupid right now :confused: :confused: but I can't come up with it.

[mjstaceyuofm]

WoL = Wonders of Life in Epcot. You probably couldn't come up with it because:

a) it's been closed for a while.
b) it was never maintained properly over the last few years it was open and thus completely forgettable.

[Speedy1998]

WoL = Wonders of Life in Epcot. You probably couldn't come up with it because:

a) it's been closed for a while.
b) it was never maintained properly over the last few years it was open and thus completely forgettable.

I thought it was completely forgetable when it first opened.

[DREAMADREAM93]

I'm fine with the wand, too, but wouldn't care either if they took it down.

Now the hat is another story ... :ack:



Im glad somebody said THAT before i did.
I dont care about the wand. I think its nice, but it wouldn't kill me if they took it down.
But, the hat !? :sick: Its annoying.

And wow, i ADORE Disney-MGM Studios. Since i was little it has been one of my favorite parks and i love the whole Hollywood design.
I hope they dont completely re-do the layout.
[ although it is desperatly in need of a few more attractions. ]


Im still all for BK. Fersure. If not, i'll just go to AK for EE, and KRR. Maybe ITTBAB, but other than that, i get bored when im forced to spend an entire day in that park. ADD SOMETHING.


BrerGnat- your right. it IS about the Pirates these days. I would be ALL for having a PotC Water Park... As long as Johnny Depp and Orlando Bloom were present in the park 365 days a year :]

[and i dont usually like water parks for the very reason that they ARE crowded. So adding one to eliminate crowds would be great!]

JOrdan :]

[BigDisneyDad]

As for what Disney themselves are doing, we have the progression of the DVC units being build near the Animal Kingdom Lodge and the new addition to the Contemporary that some have dubbed: the Watergate Tower. While I may not be estatic about the look of the tower, I don't take as much offense as other to the design. The Animal Kingdom DVC expansion is something I absolutely love, on the other hand.

There are two other properties being looked at for DVC opportunities, but it's in the early phase and will likely not see any announcements until late 2009.


Will the new DVC opportunities involve new construction or will they be converting existing rooms? With the apparent move to more and more DVC units, what does this mean for the rooms that are available to the general public? Will there be fewer rooms available for those that either can't join, or choose not to join DVC? Will this have any effect on rack rates for the general public?

Okay, that's enough questions for now.:blush:

[Jeff G]

Great article:thumbsup:.

I didn't have time in the past few days to read through it until today. As a Disney World fan the changes are excellent news. A fifth park would be great in the future but from reading through the article WDI is more intent on getting things back up to WDW standards at the rest of the parks.

MGM used to be my favorite park but over the past decade it's slowly drifted in a downward spiral. The attention the rumors mention could really get this park back in the right direction.

I'm excited to here that the wand may be coming down, I can live with it but having it down restores the original intended look. I hope they do a little more at EPCOT to make it family friendly. The majority of Future World rides are not geared towards those under 5(ie - TT, MS, Soarin and Universe of Energy).

And at AK the thought of BK is great. To me AK feels like a park that was started but never completed. I also hope it's true that they work on the carnival feel at Dinoland, it doesn't fit at all with the natural feel of the park.

All the buzz and possible changes have me excited and reminds me of the 90's. Heres to hoping most of these rumors come true:mickey:.

[Ian]

Will the new DVC opportunities involve new construction or will they be converting existing rooms? With the apparent move to more and more DVC units, what does this mean for the rooms that are available to the general public? Will there be fewer rooms available for those that either can't join, or choose not to join DVC? Will this have any effect on rack rates for the general public?Well most of the DVC work is scheduled out probably at least through 2011, with well-known but yet-to-be-officially-announced addition of DVC to the Contemporary.

They're still selling SSR ... they have VAKL going at least through 2009 ... and then they'll start selling Contemporary.

My best guess, though, is that you'll see most of the new DVC rooms being added to existing resorts. I really don't think Disney wants to be in the hotel business to the extent they are in WDW right now. Going DVC means less cleaning staff, lower expenses, etc. I've already heard pretty solid rumors that, after Contemporary, at least one building from the other two MK area resorts (i.e. Poly and Grand Floridian) will go DVC.

As to what it means for non-DVC guests ... the laws of supply and demand will apply. More DVC rooms = fewer rooms available = higher prices.

[mjstaceyuofm]

...I've already heard pretty solid rumors that, after Contemporary, at least one building from the other two MK area resorts (i.e. Poly and Grand Floridian) will go DVC.

As to what it means for non-DVC guests ... the laws of supply and demand will apply. More DVC rooms = fewer rooms available = higher prices.I agree with your supply and demand analysis. A more general question I have deals with total rooms on property. Granted those rooms at converted buildings will be taken out of "hotel stock" on Disney property, but will the buildings/rooms be converted one to one or will something similar to what's going on at Contemporary take place? Will it be a room for room deal or will the DVC units on those properties actually add to the total number of rooms at WDW? DVC members will often bank or exchange their points for other things (cruise, non-WDW hotels, etc.) thus freeing up rooms. I don't think this will compensate for the reduced supply at highly desirable locations like the CR, Poly or GF - but it may help to offset it.

[pshokie]

Hold the phone......
WDWacky, are you saying you "heard a rumor" that the DVC was going to expand to Poly and GF?

For real???

Man, if this is the case, I would buy points at either of those places without even thinking about it. We love the Poly, and that it is what is holding us back from doing DVC at the moment.

[Ian]

Hold the phone......
WDWacky, are you saying you "heard a rumor" that the DVC was going to expand to Poly and GF?

For real???Yes, for real. It's certainly not confirmed or anything, but from what I've read and heard their next two DVC projects will most likely be room/building conversions at the Poly and GF. Supposedly, it would be GF first then the Poly.


... will the buildings/rooms be converted one to one or will something similar to what's going on at Contemporary take place? Will it be a room for room deal or will the DVC units on those properties actually add to the total number of rooms at WDW?I would assume it would be more like what they're doing with VAKL right now. Redoing the existing buildings into some combination of studios, 1, 2, and 3 bedroom space.

Which, to me, seems like it would end up with less overall rooms, right?

[pshokie]

That's so cool! Thanks WDWac...er, Ian. :thumbsup:

By chance did your "source" or what ever you want to call it give some kind of projected timeframe? 2011 or beyond?

[Dsnygirl]

:thumbsup: Thanks for all the great info, Ian... quite a lot to look forward to in the years to come!! Thanks for sharing! :mickey:

[Ian]

That's so cool! Thanks WDWac...er, Ian. :thumbsup:

By chance did your "source" or what ever you want to call it give some kind of projected timeframe? 2011 or beyond?No ... some of it will depend on how fast VAKL sells out.

Our guide when we bought was telling us that the reason they're converting existing rooms at VAKL (and one of the reasons the VAKL announcement sort of came out of the blue) was because they originally planned to just add the new Kidani Village rooms for DVC. Then SSR started selling out so quickly that they needed something else to sell before 2009, when Kidani will be done, so they decided to convert existing rooms to DVC so they could sell those first.

The same could happen with the other MK area resorts. If VAKL and SSR sell out faster than they expect, they might have to do something similar.

[mjstaceyuofm]

Ian is now Ian and he bought into DVC????

:D ;) :thumbsup:

[Ian]

Ian is now Ian and he bought into DVC????

:D ;) :thumbsup:Yep ... proud owners at SSR, Matt!

[HallandNash]

Sounds like a lot of cool stuff on the horizon. This bodes well for our next trip :) which won't be until 2010 at the earliest. :(

[lockedoutlogic]

I think the rumors about DVC conversions around the MK make a ton of sense....and you can see the overall picture if you think about it:

I spent awhile working in operations at the GF...and the pink elephant in the room there was that they simply could not deliver on their service standards that they attempted to meet. The GM was actually cuffed and escorted form the property while I worked there... a throroughly amusing little andectotal...but I'm off track....

Disney doesn't have the kind of specialized staff (by training and pay) that you need to run a 4 star type hotel. Disney's construction skill and subsequent magnificent picturesque facilities hide a secret in locations like the Grand, yacht and beach, and animal kingdom lodge: they just don't have the employee caliber to make the service remarkable and bring the high end business clientele back that they strive too....

The light went on when the new Four Seasons was announced and the huge value based Western Way expansion....

You can only come to the conclusion that Disney is...in fact...retracting it's committment to resort operations.

And why not? It is painfully clear that DVC is a tremendous money maker for them. Not in the actual DVC sales...but the guaranteed repeat business and all the merchandise that flies off the shelf with it. So why not DVC-ize more hotels? Remember something about DVC: it's expensive. By and large, very few people without above average incomes would ever buy it. So you are guaranteeing a recurring client base with more disposable cash than the traditional WDW guest of the 70s and 80s...by that I mean the savers who may go once every few years or maybe only once or twice in their lifetime. And with the new value rooms on Western Way, there will be more rooms available for them as well.

The values operations....while still good for the reason stated above....undoubtedly operates at a very fine line of profit. By outsourcing that....Disney can guarantee the continued high profit business (make no mistake...that's merchandising) while pulling back from the huge overhead involve in running 2000+ room hotel locations. Think about it: how much more does it cost to run allstars than all the chain budget hotels that sit just a few miles away on 192 and charge similar rates?
I wouldn't be surprised to see the values outsourced for operations and the moderates either follow...or significantly increase in price to yield greater profits (mods are already horribly overpriced as it now stands)

The Four Seasons was the big kicker though. Nobody does service like them...and unlike Disney, they are willing to pay for it in the longterm to cater to their very selective (and by default...fully loaded clients). This is no risk for Disney. The kind of service they have failed to provide without any operational costs. A sweetheart deal straight out of the textbook.

What's the result of the 4 Seasons? The "deluxes" are now going to move away from the business traveler and service areas that they have struggled with and become more Disneyfied....
you better beleive it. The Contemporary is an aging hotel that people once payed $29 dollars a night for....
...now people pay 450 to look out at the Astro Orbiter....what a raquet.....seriously.

Why not load all three MK properties with DVC? The sure as heck will be occupied...and the corporate business that will now be going to 4 Seasons will leave more space available.

This is something like a 50 win plan.

[Jeany031]

maybe in the Magic Kingdom park in Mickey's Toontown fair. Maybe a Rescue Rangers Dark Ride and Rescue Rangers and the guest are coming to his rescue of Mickey Mouse from the cluches of Fat Cat and his gang.:mickey:

[Sharon1026]

:sick: :down: :nono: :sorry: :noway: :eek:

No way it should stay. Are you kidding me?

I heard that the wand will be turned into a salami to honor the new Italian restaurant that will be opening... This is 3rd or 4th hand info, so I don't know how accurate it is.

[Sharon1026]

thanks for the great info.

DVC is a great way for Disney to annuitize it's business and get the dvc owners to pay for the upkeep of the property. It's win/win for the owners if they use it as intended.

I would like to see some parts of MK rehabbed. The galaxy theater is NEVER open. Put an attraction there! I am not a fan of COP - I wouldn't mind seeing it taken down.yes, it was walt's baby, but walt was all about improving things. B/W cartoons to BW cartoons with sound, to color cartoons to full length cartoons. He improved things and didn't look back.

[iceicebritney]

who doesnt like a good disney rumor??:mickey:hehe

i was just curious where you all think the new waterpark would go... i wonder if it would be closer to the main resorts by the MK?

also - have ya'll seen the "master plans" on other disney fan websites? i've never seen them before.. but stumbled upon them while searching yahoo. very interesting stuff. i remember seeing something similar during ... i think it was walt's b-day celebration... when they had that special area next to Tonys Town Sqaure in MK decked out in all things Walt Disney. its interesting to see how things were planned out in walt's mind so far ahead of his time... he really was an incredibly intelligent and creative man!:thumbsup:

[WDWFreek]

I've been away from the boards for a while (work, who needs it?), but I am very happy to hear these rumors about the Studios. The Disney Studios is my favorite park in WDW (film student, what do you expect?) but I have to admit I was a bit dissapointed my last visit.

IMO, these following additions/rehabs would make the Studios a must see park.

1) Star Tours 2.0

2) Indiana Jones Adventure

3) Get rid of sounds dangerous and replace it with ANYTHING. I don't just get rid of it.

4) Put something in the ABC Theatre

5) Take down that stupid hat! It surves no purpose. I takes away from the Illussion and all it is, is a gift shop!

All those pluse Toy Story Mania, the Studio will be one awsome park.

[mjstaceyuofm]

I think the rumors about DVC conversions around the MK make a ton of sense....and you can see the overall picture if you think about it:

I spent awhile working in operations at the GF...and the pink elephant in the room there was that they simply could not deliver on their service standards that they attempted to meet. The GM was actually cuffed and escorted form the property while I worked there... a throroughly amusing little andectotal...but I'm off track....

Disney doesn't have the kind of specialized staff (by training and pay) that you need to run a 4 star type hotel. Disney's construction skill and subsequent magnificent picturesque facilities hide a secret in locations like the Grand, yacht and beach, and animal kingdom lodge: they just don't have the employee caliber to make the service remarkable and bring the high end business clientele back that they strive too....

The light went on when the new Four Seasons was announced and the huge value based Western Way expansion....

You can only come to the conclusion that Disney is...in fact...retracting it's committment to resort operations.

And why not? It is painfully clear that DVC is a tremendous money maker for them. Not in the actual DVC sales...but the guaranteed repeat business and all the merchandise that flies off the shelf with it. So why not DVC-ize more hotels? Remember something about DVC: it's expensive. By and large, very few people without above average incomes would ever buy it. So you are guaranteeing a recurring client base with more disposable cash than the traditional WDW guest of the 70s and 80s...by that I mean the savers who may go once every few years or maybe only once or twice in their lifetime. And with the new value rooms on Western Way, there will be more rooms available for them as well.

The values operations....while still good for the reason stated above....undoubtedly operates at a very fine line of profit. By outsourcing that....Disney can guarantee the continued high profit business (make no mistake...that's merchandising) while pulling back from the huge overhead involve in running 2000+ room hotel locations. Think about it: how much more does it cost to run allstars than all the chain budget hotels that sit just a few miles away on 192 and charge similar rates?
I wouldn't be surprised to see the values outsourced for operations and the moderates either follow...or significantly increase in price to yield greater profits (mods are already horribly overpriced as it now stands)

The Four Seasons was the big kicker though. Nobody does service like them...and unlike Disney, they are willing to pay for it in the longterm to cater to their very selective (and by default...fully loaded clients). This is no risk for Disney. The kind of service they have failed to provide without any operational costs. A sweetheart deal straight out of the textbook.

What's the result of the 4 Seasons? The "deluxes" are now going to move away from the business traveler and service areas that they have struggled with and become more Disneyfied....
you better beleive it. The Contemporary is an aging hotel that people once payed $29 dollars a night for....
...now people pay 450 to look out at the Astro Orbiter....what a raquet.....seriously.

Why not load all three MK properties with DVC? The sure as heck will be occupied...and the corporate business that will now be going to 4 Seasons will leave more space available.

This is something like a 50 win plan.
TONS of good thoughts in your post. It's interesting that the one thing I've noticed for years and years is the "faux" Disney sense of upscale service. In my opinion they could just never pull it off. I've always felt there's a good sense of "Disney" service, but not much more. It is hard to differentiate pay scales when the same contracts govern staff in comparable positions all over WDW property. While I'm dissapointed that a non-Disney resort is making it's way onto Disney property, if the service is what it's cracked up to be then maybe Disney can focus on providing the type of "Disney" service people have to come to love and EXPECT when vacationing and staying at WDW property.

As far as DVC goes - I've always been a huge proponent. When my wife and I bought in 1996 we were only a few years out of college and scraping by.... But at the time the points were cheap and spread out over 10 years and having some more tax deductions helped mitigate the cost. Now it is VERY expensive to buy more points. It should be interesting to see how things play out with DVC, a non-disney luxury hotel, etc...

Also, I'd love to hear more about your inside info at the GF...

[Ian]

I agree with a lot of lockedoutlogic's points, as well.

Think about it this way ... what's Disney's biggest headache at WDW? Human resources. Attracting good ones, keeping them, paying them, etc. 50,000+ on site employees is a crazy number. They've got to be looking for ways to reduce that.

So if they go mostly with DVC, that not only cuts down on staff (fewer housekeepers, etc.) it also shifts the cost of them onto the owners. We pay for the upkeep of the place through our maintenance payments.

I totally agree that Disney has never been able to come close to providing the kind of top tier service that visitors to their deluxe resorts have come to expect. I know, speaking for myself only, some of the worst experiences I've had with Disney's customer service have come at the deluxes ... specifically the Floridian and the Poly.

Personally, I expect to see a continued shift away from focus on hotel rooms and towards DVC. In fact, it's one of the reasons we ended up buying in. The old if you can't beat 'em join 'em thing.

[BrerSchultzy]

Personally, as long as there are hotel rooms on property that I can at least dream of affording, then I don't much care about the service I get there....as long as the maintenance and upkeep is respectable. What I DO care about is the service in the parks themselves, and if they have to take the couple of hundred good cast members out of the hotels, and put them in the parks, I'm okay with that. Just so long as my room is clean, and the hotel doesn't look like a Holiday Inn.

But maybe that's just me.

By the way...GREAT points about the DVC...y'all are smart.

[lockedoutlogic]

Just to expand a little...but not to cross any boundaries....

The GF "concierge" themselves freely admitted when I worked there that the selection process was probably the culprit that differentiated the GF from other world renown type facilites...

And by that...I mean there Wasn't a selection process. All WDW castmembers are herded through casting like a stockyard...and where they go from there really is up to them. Alot never make it past the first week/ month/ year. Others slip by and end up working there for life...even if they don't actually have the demeanor to work in customer service. The GF, POLY, and Contemp were classic examples during my tenure....when the mod I worked at shutdown for rehab...the GF begged for experienced staff because they were basically on a skeleton crew comprised of relatively new employees. The poly and contemp also had personnel that I personally know couldn't have ever kept up with many in the trenches at the mods, values, Y&B, and WL.....

The thing that I'll always remember is the concierge members saying things like "You can't run a luxury resort from a labor pool"....and "The Four Seasons and Ritz Carlton would never permit appearance violations...and would never pay or train their employees on the same scale as Holiday Inn"

...And they were absolutely right. One of my pet peeves- which leaks out on this board -is concierge....It does not...by definition...exist at WDW. The "concierge" have no special relationships with restaurants, service providers, travel companies, transportation, and recreation outlets that the top tier service providers have. They cannot even force a table into restaurants located at their own properties...
...so what do you get? some snacks and drink options...maybe a slightly better view..and a questionaire mailed to you 6 months in advance? For a roughly 30-50% increase in room rate? That is...the closest thing I can think of to literally.....burning your money in a firepit.

But we won't tread down a worn track again.

I think this can be a good move...especially the 4 seasons....if the management on the ground is smart enough to reinvest their higher caliber staff into the parks, attractions, and existing WDW resorts....

Maybe that will even lead to a one day smaller and better compensated....leading to a happier overall workforce behind the purple gates....

We'll see...WDW is always in a state of perpetual reinvention...and now they need to revolve back to the earlier days where the standards need to be tightened up to keep their name out of sentences with words like "Six Flags" and "Universal" and "Cedar Point"....

[pshokie]

Just out of curiousity, why doesn't Disney just sell the deluxes (GF/Poly/CR, etc) to major chains (4 Seasons, even Marriott/Hilton/etc) with the explicit premiss that the Hotels must stay in theme? Kinda, but not realy, like the Swan & Dolphin.

In "regular people speek", just make Disney like the Super-HOA. The chains own the hotels, but must seek Disney aprroval for any and all changes?

That way, by and large, Disney is out of the "business", but could still manage some degree of control and potential residual monetary income (lease/fees) from the resorts.

[Ian]

One of my pet peeves- which leaks out on this board -is concierge....It does not...by definition...exist at WDW. The "concierge" have no special relationships with restaurants, service providers, travel companies, transportation, and recreation outlets that the top tier service providers have. They cannot even force a table into restaurants located at their own properties...
...so what do you get? some snacks and drink options...maybe a slightly better view..and a questionaire mailed to you 6 months in advance? For a roughly 30-50% increase in room rate? That is...the closest thing I can think of to literally.....burning your money in a firepit.Ugh, I agree COMPLETELY!!

I stayed at Poly concierge once and it was literally one of the worst stays I ever had. The cast actually seemed to have this arrogance about them. They were actually snooty as opposed to bending over backwards for us.

Like when we arrived (more than an hour past check-in time) we had no room available for us. We had driven all the way from PA and had a tired 18 month old with us, so I was a little peeved. They were like, "What do you want us to do about it? It's housekeepings fault."

:rolleyes:

I'd never felt so cheated in my life. The whole thing was a complete ripoff and I'll never, ever stay concierge level again. Having done it in real hotels with real concierge, I know what I'm missing out on for all that extra money!



Just out of curiousity, why doesn't Disney just sell the deluxes (GF/Poly/CR, etc) to major chains (4 Seasons, even Marriott/Hilton/etc) with the explicit premiss that the Hotels must stay in theme? Kinda, but not realy, like the Swan & Dolphin.I wouldn't rule that out as an option down the road. You may not be aware, but they've already outsourced a good number of the staff positions at their deluxe resorts to a third party.

[lockedoutlogic]

Just out of curiousity, why doesn't Disney just sell the deluxes (GF/Poly/CR, etc) to major chains (4 Seasons, even Marriott/Hilton/etc) with the explicit premiss that the Hotels must stay in theme? Kinda, but not realy, like the Swan & Dolphin.

In "regular people speek", just make Disney like the Super-HOA. The chains own the hotels, but must seek Disney aprroval for any and all changes?

That way, by and large, Disney is out of the "business", but could still manage some degree of control and potential residual monetary income (lease/fees) from the resorts.

a couple of things:

I'm not so sure Disney ever wanted it's "deluxes" to be..well.."Deluxe"....
They want the rich room rates...but they are still catering to the family/Disney-type guest to keep coming back for more.
The problem is when you start advertising as "deluxe", "luxury", or "world class"...people who really value those concepts...especially businessmen...start looking for it.
Disney could never keep up with the demand for the kind of services that pampered patrons really insist on getting for their money.

Second, Disney may be well served to outsource it's hotel operations...as suggested. But I think they may not completely cross that line...as they did with the Swan and Dolphin...for a simple reason:
Disney employees at the resort are trained just as much to sell the entertainment options on property as they are to provide resort service. Remember that the hotels are only there to sell the parks...not because it's "fun" to build hotels. It's actually a complete pain in the butt for the ownership.
I don't see weston or four season employees peddling park hoppers and water sprites? Do you?

they have....in recent years...attempted to eliminate this problem by pushing packages and tickets to the public and providing incentives for the guest to buy everything in advance...but I have a feeling that tens of thousands of tickets are sold on the property...still...today.

[Cinderelley]

...And they were absolutely right. One of my pet peeves- which leaks out on this board -is concierge....It does not...by definition...exist at WDW. The "concierge" have no special relationships with restaurants, service providers, travel companies, transportation, and recreation outlets that the top tier service providers have. They cannot even force a table into restaurants located at their own properties...
...so what do you get? some snacks and drink options...maybe a slightly better view..and a questionaire mailed to you 6 months in advance? For a roughly 30-50% increase in room rate? That is...the closest thing I can think of to literally.....burning your money in a firepit.


We never even got the questionnaire when we stayed concierge at the Poly. The one thing I did really need from them, I couldn't get - directions to our Safari. They couldn't tell me where we were supposed to meet, so I asked at Guest Services in AK. They were pretty vague, and we still couldn't find it. I was out quite a bit of $, but the worst part was how disappointed everyone was. When we got back to the Poly, I spoke with Concierge again, and all I got was a snobby "Sorry, I can't help you." We'll never go back to the Poly again.

[lockedoutlogic]

Unfortunately, by labeling it "concierge" it attracts a certain type of personality that has there nose in the air to a certain extent (to a certain extent...not all conciergers)

But the truth is that they have no training, qualifications, or experience that makes them better CMs when it comes to service.

In fact, many of the best GSO employees (Guest Service Operations: essentially the Front Desk, Bellstand, Concierge, and some convention coordinators) are those that have worked in the trenches for 15-20-25 years on the normal front desk or bell stand.

In reality...and this maybe has changed somewhat in the last few years as they have tried to streamline the staff and combine some areas...usually shakes out like this:

Most Skilled pecking order:

1. Night shift (graveyard) CMs
2. Operations - two or three per shift (day and night) who handle room assigning, monetary audits, communication with housekeeping, wdw central reservations, and travel packages.
3. Concierge (more experienced) and more experienced Bell Staff, Guest Service specialists (dining, tickets, and shows)
4. Standard Front Desk and Concierge, Bell Staff (less experiened)

The GS managers fall somewhere in that mix...but not necessarily the top. Many managers are great...many are inexperienced...many are knowledgable...many are not....many know the computer systems...some couldn't navigate them with a flashlight and a map.
As far as managers go...Disney has been know to hire based on the pretty face or demographic...which isn't really a productive way to operate (and without regard to education and training).

Now that I strayed completely off the topic...I'll stand pat on my original point...if I can find it:thumbsup:

[Ian]

We never even got the questionnaire when we stayed concierge at the Poly. The one thing I did really need from them, I couldn't get - directions to our Safari. They couldn't tell me where we were supposed to meet, so I asked at Guest Services in AK. They were pretty vague, and we still couldn't find it. I was out quite a bit of $, but the worst part was how disappointed everyone was. When we got back to the Poly, I spoke with Concierge again, and all I got was a snobby "Sorry, I can't help you." We'll never go back to the Poly again.Sounds like your experience with them was exactly the same as ours.

The other thing that REALLY irked me about the Poly staff was that they sent us the questionnaire and on it, it made a point of asking, "Will you be celebrating any special events while you're with us?"

We were, in fact, celebrating our wedding anniversary while we were there, so I listed that along with the fact that it was very special for us to do it in WDW since that was where we had honeymooned.

Guess what? Our anniversary came and went without so much as a greeting card or a piece of candy. No acknowledgement AT ALL. Now look ... I don't expect something from them, but once you ask??? I mean don't ask if you're just going to ignore the feedback. That really irritated me beyond belief.

[Cinderelley]

Sounds like your experience with them was exactly the same as ours.

The other thing that REALLY irked me about the Poly staff was that they sent us the questionnaire and on it, it made a point of asking, "Will you be celebrating any special events while you're with us?"

We were, in fact, celebrating our wedding anniversary while we were there, so I listed that along with the fact that it was very special for us to do it in WDW since that was where we had honeymooned.

Guess what? Our anniversary came and went without so much as a greeting card or a piece of candy. No acknowledgement AT ALL. Now look ... I don't expect something from them, but once you ask??? I mean don't ask if you're just going to ignore the feedback. That really irritated me beyond belief.

I would be irritated too. Just reading it makes me :mad: Why set up the expectation if you're not going to deliver on it? It's not like it's asking them to go to extraordinary measures. When we see that a patient is in our unit on their birthday, we say Happy Birthday to them. It doesn't take anything from us, but it makes them very happy. I'm sure someone telling you Happy Anniversary would've made you smile and would've made it seem like they really cared.

[glenpreece]

So anyways I would really love to see a new water park and I agree that The Little Mermaid would be great. Typhoon Lagoon is kinda piratey as it is with the ship so i don't think they would build another Carribean water park. It would be so fun to have it like Atlantica and have different things around the park like a giant Ursula etc.

[WEDTOPIA]

Just out of curiousity, why doesn't Disney just sell the deluxes (GF/Poly/CR, etc) to major chains (4 Seasons, even Marriott/Hilton/etc) with the explicit premiss that the Hotels must stay in theme? Kinda, but not realy, like the Swan & Dolphin.

In "regular people speek", just make Disney like the Super-HOA. The chains own the hotels, but must seek Disney aprroval for any and all changes?

That way, by and large, Disney is out of the "business", but could still manage some degree of control and potential residual monetary income (lease/fees) from the resorts.


I , for one , hope this never becomes a reality .

Just to add my 2 cents to what has been said by others....
Contrary to some opinions , the Disney hotels run extremely well . The deluxes were never promoted as " world - class "( i.e. The Four Seasons , Ritz- Carlton , Marriott ) . They've always been promoted as " Disney's best ".
The upshot is their location and theming. These two perks so far outweigh all other considerations , that the rest seem minute by comparison . The considerations between value , moderate , and deluxe , that each guest makes , is usually based on ability to pay , and the "perception " of personal comfort. And ,since, literally , millions of businessmen have attended conventions at WDW, I hardly think that there is a rampant mis-conception as to the degree of services available within any WDW resort. Add to that the multitude of travel agents , who have had over 35 years worth of information to divulge to travelers of all classes that aren't businessmen , there really are no secrets left concerning WDW resort information.

While there will always be dissatisfied guests , for any number of reasons , the Disney folks will continue to fill their hotels with people seeking Disney Magic.

:mickey:

[battle beast]

I'm fine with the wand, too, but wouldn't care either if they took it down.

To tell the truth, I NEVER EVEN NOTIVED IT WHEN i WAS THERE.

[Ian]

Contrary to some opinions , the Disney hotels run extremely well . The deluxes were never promoted as " world - class "( i.e. The Four Seasons , Ritz- Carlton , Marriott ) . They've always been promoted as " Disney's best ".They refer to them in all their brochures and travel information as "world class" resort destinations, they label them as "deluxe" category resorts, and the rates they charge for them clearly would lead people to believe they are in the same class as a Ritz or a Four Seasons.

I think you're really splitting hairs claiming they're promoted as "Disney's best", considering that many people still consider Disney the leading customer service provider in the world.


The upshot is their location and theming. These two perks so far outweigh all other considerations , that the rest seem minute by comparison . The considerations between value , moderate , and deluxe , that each guest makes , is usually based on ability to pay , and the "perception " of personal comfort. And ,since, literally , millions of businessmen have attended conventions at WDW, I hardly think that there is a rampant mis-conception as to the degree of services available within any WDW resort.I have no idea how often/if you travel for your job, but I talk almost daily with people for whom conventions are a way of life and virtually every one of them complains when their conventions are in WDW.

Why? Because they don't get nearly the same level of amenities and attention in WDW resorts as they do at other resort destinations. In fact, the Mortgage Bankers Association used to have their annual convention at the Swan or Dolphin every year, but the level of complaints grew to the point that they've discontinued going to WDW and have moved on to other places.


While there will always be dissatisfied guests , for any number of reasons , the Disney folks will continue to fill their hotels with people seeking Disney Magic.I think that's a very oversimplified view of things and I doubt that it's true. Right now Disney's reputation hasn't sunk low enough to affect them yet, but trust me ... if they continued to provide low levels of service and charge exhorbitant rates people would eventually notice and stop coming.

I think Disney themselves have already acknowledged this fear by outsourcing guest service positions at their deluxe resorts and inviting Four Seasons onto property.

[SurferStitch]

The other thing that REALLY irked me about the Poly staff was that they sent us the questionnaire and on it, it made a point of asking, "Will you be celebrating any special events while you're with us?"

We were, in fact, celebrating our wedding anniversary while we were there, so I listed that along with the fact that it was very special for us to do it in WDW since that was where we had honeymooned.

Guess what? Our anniversary came and went without so much as a greeting card or a piece of candy. No acknowledgement AT ALL. Now look ... I don't expect something from them, but once you ask??? I mean don't ask if you're just going to ignore the feedback. That really irritated me beyond belief.

Oh, I can SOOOO totally relate to this. The GF concierge asked the same thing on our questionnaire, and I let them know the date of our anniversary (it was toward the later part of our trip).

Well, the day came and went, and we also got absolutely NOTHING! Even a card would have been nice. But, considering the very high cost of a GF concierge room, some champagne and strawberries would not have been out of the question. I remember on our 2nd anniversary staying in Boca Chica at the GF (1998) we came back one night to tuxedo chocolate dipped strawberries, champagne and cookies, all courtesy of the GF, but couldn't get the same in concierge???

Oh, but the Crystal Palace had a table decorated for us, and a card. V&A gave us some extra special goodies (without the added cost to the meal). Our server at Narcoossee's gave us complimentary Iron Horse Fairytale champagne. There were so many things the other places did to make our anniversary special, but the Flo couldn't lift a finger.

And, while the lounge was very nice, and we had a room on the 4th floor in the main atrium with an amazing view, the service was non-existent. We were very disappointed with the lack of service. And, as lockedoutlogic mentioned, they have no power to get you into a meal. We wanted to dine at Narcoossee's for a second time, and they couldn't squeeze us in at all for the couple days that we could have gone. Never lifted the phone to call over and ask. Every concierge I've ever used at NYC hotels could do it, but not the GF.

[Ian]

Your last sentence says it all ... do you think if you were staying concierge level (or comparable) at a Four Seasons or a Ritz and they knew it was as special occasion that they'd let it pass unnoticed??

No way. You'd get champagne and chocolates or roses or something. I guarantee it.

[mjstaceyuofm]

...We wanted to dine at Narcoossee's for a second time, and they couldn't squeeze us in at all for the couple days that we could have gone. Never lifted the phone to call over and ask. Every concierge I've ever used at NYC hotels could do it, but not the GF.


Your last sentence says it all ... do you think if you were staying concierge level (or comparable) at a Four Seasons or a Ritz and they knew it was as special occasion that they'd let it pass unnoticed??

No way. You'd get champagne and chocolates or roses or something. I guarantee it.Let me pose this question to you both - do you think that if the new Four Seasons hotel on WDW property has a Concierge desk/level (whatever they call it) that their Concierge service would be able to get you into the California Grill or Victoria and Albert's? Will they be able to get you a prime tee-time on short notice? Tickets to the dinner show at FW or the Poly?

Maybe the beef you all hold w/ Disney's Deluxe resorts is the fact that the entire WDW vacation structure regardless of whether you stay at a value, moderate or deluxe resort is constrained by all the policies and procedures Disney has in place. How will an outside concierge service contend with all the red tape that WDW has in place for the aforementioned items? The minute you can pay extra for a Four Seasons room and not have to book your dinner reservations half a year out is the minute I consider a stay there as opposed to my DVC unit.

[pshokie]

Let me pose this question to you both - do you think that if the new Four Seasons hotel on WDW property has a Concierge desk/level (whatever they call it) that their Concierge service would be able to get you into the California Grill or Victoria and Albert's? Will they be able to get you a prime tee-time on short notice? Tickets to the dinner show at FW or the Poly?

I have never stayed concierge, but I bet they could. Even if they had to do some trickeration to get it done, and keep the clientel happy.

Example, I would not put it past the Four Seasons to pay for a table (or five) each night at the "in demand" places, soley for those guests who want it last minute. Could they lose money sometimes? Yes, but I doubt it. And I do not see it as a way to get into a specific place - "I want the California Grille for Wishes". But rather a series of options - "I would like California Grille for Wishes". "Sorry sir, I cannot seem to get a table. But I can get you a window table at Narcosse's for Wishes." And then they throw in a bottle of champagne for the "inconveinence" of having to dine at Narcosse's.

The real question is, will Disney let them do it?

[Ian]

Matt, I can't speak for SurferStitch, but I wasn't trying to imply that a Four Seasons on WDW property would have any better luck getting those tough ressies or tee times than a WDW concierge would.

What I was saying was, at any other world class resort anywhere in the world, that's what a concierge can do. Get you last minute dinner reservations at a hot spot, procure those tough-to-find theater tickets, or get you a prime tee time at the best local course.

So why in the world doesn't WDW empower their concierge staff to do the same thing?? It's ridiculous and why I'll never pay for concierge level service at WDW again.

[WDWFreek]

Can somebody please explain what exactly concierge service is? And what this whole discussion is about.

[Ian]

Can somebody please explain what exactly concierge service is? And what this whole discussion is about.Well actually that's sort of what the discussion is about (although I'll admit we're way OT from the point of the original thread).

Most luxury hotels around the world offer the option of staying "concierge" level (or Club level or whatever level the particular chain calls it).

The word "concierge" comes from the French word referring to a caretaker of in apartments or hotels. They typically live on the premises and oversee people entering and leaving and handles mail and acts as janitor or porter. In the case of hotels, they assists guests by providing information and specialized services.

In America, it's normally used to refer to paying extra to get access to the services the hotel concierge can provide. These typically include things like procuring difficult to obtain dinner reservations (usually at trendy hotspots), getting theater tickets to sold out shows, or even getting you entrance to VIP nightclubs. Sometimes they also offer more benign services like handling your dry cleaning or getting your car washed.

But basically they almost serve like a butler service for guests willing to fork out the extra cash for that level of service. Normally, concierge level also comes with some type of complimentary cocktail hour each day and maybe a continental breakfast served each morning.

Now in WDW, concierge level service is not nearly that comprehensive. Basically, you get the free food and drinks and that's about it. They claim to offer you custom itinerary planning, but really all they'll do is make ADR's for you that you could easily make yourself.

The point of this discussion is just to highlight the lack of extra amenities that WDW's concierge level service offers in comparison to other deluxe resorts around the world.

[mjstaceyuofm]

Matt, I can't speak for SurferStitch, but I wasn't trying to imply that a Four Seasons on WDW property would have any better luck getting those tough ressies or tee times than a WDW concierge would.

What I was saying was, at any other world class resort anywhere in the world, that's what a concierge can do. Get you last minute dinner reservations at a hot spot, procure those tough-to-find theater tickets, or get you a prime tee time at the best local course.

So why in the world doesn't WDW empower their concierge staff to do the same thing?? It's ridiculous and why I'll never pay for concierge level service at WDW again.Ian, I may not know you personally but I know your opinions of WDW well enough to know exactly what you were thinking. WDW probably never tried to offer those types of services because they knew it was an impossibility given the framework of the vacation system at WDW (ADRs, park tickets, tee times, scheduling tours, etc....) I guess I was just venting a little bit of my own frustrations about vacationing in WDW. I love WDW like we all do but have grown increasingly intolerant of the serious mega-effort that goes into planning a few dinners or excursions there.... :mad:


The point of this discussion is just to highlight the lack of extra amenities that WDW's concierge level service offers in comparison to other deluxe resorts around the world. The latter part of this thread has definitely gotten OT, but I think a well warranted discussion nonetheless.

[Ian]

I guess I was just venting a little bit of my own frustrations about vacationing in WDW. I love WDW like we all do but have grown increasingly intolerant of the serious mega-effort that goes into planning a few dinners or excursions there.... :mad:On that we definitely agree!!

[lockedoutlogic]

On that we definitely agree!!

Second...all in favor? AYE!!!!

[WEDTOPIA]

I have no idea how often/if you travel for your job, but I talk almost daily with people for whom conventions are a way of life and virtually every one of them complains when their conventions are in WDW.

Why? Because they don't get nearly the same level of amenities and attention in WDW resorts as they do at other resort destinations. In fact, the Mortgage Bankers Association used to have their annual convention at the Swan or Dolphin every year, but the level of complaints grew to the point that they've discontinued going to WDW and have moved on to other places.



Ian ,I've never doubted your knowledge on all things Disney , but I find it impossible to believe that after one bad convention experience at Disney that any company would re-book for future considerations. So how does that happen ? Why did Disney build all the convention facilities and why are they constantly booked ? Why is it the number one convention destination ? And coupling that with the overwhelming proliferation of Disney informative literature , the thousands of travel agents who have experienced the resorts first-hand , and the dozens of critical reviews that line any bookstore's travel sections , it would be a deserving fate for any company to wallow in their disappoinment because of poor planning. C'mon .40 million people a year go there. It's the single biggest destination on the planet. How are these secrets being kept ? Using the Swan and Dolphin as key examples takes away from the argument ,since they aren't run by Disney anyway.

I'll be the first to tell you that Disney is way over-priced on their resorts and everything else for that matter , but somehow for me and millions of others ,the cost is justified by the end results .But , as I stated before , location and theming and ,to a slightly lesser degree , the service level that still is a disney hallmark ( I know , I know , there is a contingency out there that thinks Disney has gone down the tubes in this area. I'm just not one of them ) , keep the rooms to almost 98 % capacity. Seriously ,can you think of anywhere you've been that location and theming is such an overwhelming consideration ? People pay the price to get those things. For the most part , concierge service and chocolates on the pillows are not important to 99% of WDW visitors. I agree that if Disney is going to offer concierge service that it should be competently run. And if you have a problem ,you have a right to complain. But I have never had any dilusions that Disney is running Ritz-Carltons on property. For those that rank these things as important or as a given at any deluxe resort , there are some off property resorts that foot the bill. Disney is not the place to go for indulgence in accomodations.

Because of the mix of people that go to Disney , there will never be an exclusive ,immersive ,luxury style atmosphere for people who desire that kind of get-away . It will be interesting to see how the 4 Seasons experiment plays out. I'm betting that most guests will be coming for the accomodations and not the Disney experience. We'll see.

Ask me if I would like to see better trained CM's and the answer would be yes. They could be better. On this we can agree .They could also be far ,far worse than they are . I am very positive about an upgrade becoming a reality , considering the improvements already coming down the pike from the new Disney regime. Since Disney has more rooms on property than most large cities ,you can bet they won't allow a downhill slide in this area.

Simplified as it may be ,I'll stand by my statement that people will keep coming to Disney for the Disney experience.


:mickey:

[big blue and hairy]

I love WDW like we all do but have grown increasingly intolerant of the serious mega-effort that goes into planning a few dinners or excursions there.... :mad:



I've seen this complaint before and I just don't understand it. DW and I plan our WDW vacations within an inch of their lives, we ADR every sitdown meal. I've almost never had a problem getting the restaurant and time I wanted. I've changed my mind and changed restaurants closer to the vacation and I've still gotten what I wanted. I don't see the problem...:scratch:

:sulley:

[mjstaceyuofm]

I've seen this complaint before and I just don't understand it. DW and I plan our WDW vacations within an inch of their lives, we ADR every sitdown meal....And thus the problem - you have to ADR everything. If a day is rained out and you shift your water park day for your Epcot day good luck trying to get a ressie on short notice in Chefs de France.

[big blue and hairy]

And thus the problem - you have to ADR everything. If a day is rained out and you shift your water park day for your Epcot day good luck trying to get a ressie on short notice in Chefs de France.

That's a new problem? DW and I have always said if you don't have an ADR you're toast, and we've been going for 18 years.

:sulley:

[lockedoutlogic]

That's a new problem? DW and I have always said if you don't have an ADR you're toast, and we've been going for 18 years.

:sulley:

Yes...that is a new problem....the old Priority Seating system was thrown out for a hard 100% booking reservation system.

That was NOT how the priority seating system worked. Other than Christmas, New Years, and July 4th.....you never saw them turning people away from the sitdowns like they now do......prior to 3 or so years ago.

Things have changed...not so much for the better.....

The problem with hard planning every meal is the you have to "plan" your every minute and eliminate freedom of choice in the moment.

this is fine for those who hard plan every minute, run from line to line, set every morsel in stone....

but it also serves to hurt the casual WDW-er....like myself. WDW has always been unique in that it attracts those who go to a theme park destination...and take it easy. Would you ever see adult couples without children, and retirees go to a place like Cedar Point or King's Island and stroll around.
No...but you have always seen that at WDW. The crunch on dining and increase in hotel rooms to pour people into the guest areas threatens that populace.
And they are longstanding, valued, and a very important source of cash at WDW since its inception.

Then...there's the "other" thing. The fact that a large number of people abuse the system and book duplicate or triplicate reservations to attempt to "rig" there trips so that they can be casual. I saw first hand that people did this when it was still priority seating (the dining system computer did not lie to those with passwords to it)
Now that restaurants are booked to capacity at all times....it can only be worse.
now please don't give me the "nobody here would do that...never..."
please.....we all know that it is done...especially by "insiders"
I have friends who just did it for their trip in September.

so I guess it's a matter of perspective....if you don't mind having to plan by the minute....and subsequently making yourselves a little higher strung on vacation (if you are already OC...then heaven help you anyway)...then it's no problem.

For many of us...it's already paradise lost:sadwave:

[Ian]

I agree ... We refuse to plan out our trip minute by minute. The day it gets to that point is the day we stop going. That's not our style and it never will be.

It's becoming harder and harder to get around having rock solid ADR's, though. If we didn't go during the real off-peak times we wouldn't be able to get away with it still.

And I agree about the dup and trip reservations ... I know a lot of folks who do that.

[mjstaceyuofm]

Ditto on Logic and Ian's posts. It's even been bad of late trying to get decent ADR's during "off-peak" times when the free dining plan is in effect. I agree with Kevin Yee's thoughts on the whole system - I can't remeber the exact numbers and breakdown he came up with but it went something like this:

allow 20% of the slots to be booked 60-180 days in advance; another 20% 60-10 days out; 30% 0-10 days out and the remainder as walk-ups/last minute.

That allows all facets of people and visitors the opportunity to book their meals ahead of time (either way in advance or a bit in advance), actually during their stay, or the opportunity to have a meal at the spur of the moment.

[lockedoutlogic]

In the aggregate....the priority seating system used to claim somewhere between 35 and 60% of the available tables....on average over the year

that left a sizable chunk to walk ups. Now Disney would say they were underutilizing their inventory....
hogwash....the majority of restaurant tables...in the end...were pretty much full. And, in a supply and demand world...if a restaurant was not filling up...it was probably because it needed to be tweaked or completely reorganized. A nice safeguard to the consumer.

Now they book em solid.....because of the dining plan mostly.

Frankly, it stinks...and it was not always this way. there were always busy times and days where you couldn't get in....now that's on a daily basis....

so now you have to be at a certain, park, a certain hotel, at a very finite timeframe. So you obviously can't spend time in an extra line...can't stay buy the pool for an extra hour or so....can't let your kids rest for awhile before you move on......
and what if your reservation is for 6:30? and you just aren't hungry?
Guess you have to go and stuff it.....

I just don't like how the overall atmosphere has changed.....if even not for everyone.....
It used to be that you could do things "your way"...the logjam at the restaurant podium is threatening many who don't want to play plan-o-matic

The one really big pet peeve is when a guest services rep tells you, "they've always done reservations this way"
Liars....and I am offended by that....Disney should respect it's customers a little more and say something like, "the dining plan has changed the reservations system by increasing demand."

That's fine...I have no problem with that. But undoubtedly the "company line" is to say that they haven't changed a thing.....just given you added value with the dining plan.

I've had this happen to me...casually...on a couple occasions....

don't lie to me...when someone attempts to cover up ...I am always tempted to give them my old employee ID and tell them that they can't give a person such a lame excuse if they used to...literally...do their job.

[big blue and hairy]

allow 20% of the slots to be booked 60-180 days in advance; another 20% 60-10 days out; 30% 0-10 days out and the remainder as walk-ups/last minute.

That allows all facets of people and visitors the opportunity to book their meals ahead of time (either way in advance or a bit in advance), actually during their stay, or the opportunity to have a meal at the spur of the moment.

So...with that logic, I who plan my vacations ahead, will not be able to get an ADR, because you might want go at the spur of the moment. Not only is that not fair to people who plan ahead, it's bad business, you don't take a maybe when you have a yes.

Think of it this way, you're having a garage sale from 7-11. Do you hold back some of the merchandise from people who want to buy it at 9am, because someone might want it at 10:30? That's ludicrous.

:sulley:

[mjstaceyuofm]

It's not ludicrous. How is it that restaurants like Carrabas, Bennigans, Max and Ermas, etc. all stay in business with a no reservations policy? I'm not saying it would work for all restaurants (CRT, V&A, etc.), but it would clearly work for most...

25 years ago when you visited E.P.C.O.T. Center, first thing you did in the morning was sprinted to Communicore to talk to a host on a video phone to make dinner reservations in World Showcase. Guess what, they always held back a few reservations for walk-ups. It worked. There will always be demand. Disney won't be passing up restaurant money. They'll be passing up return trip money.

Disney is penalizing those who don't uber-plan and those who don't know in favor of what they see is a sure - buck. It will backfire on them when people like myself, Ian, or the casual visitor who goes once and then says "never again" because they didn't know all the ins or outs.

[lockedoutlogic]

So...with that logic, I who plan my vacations ahead, will not be able to get an ADR, because you might want go at the spur of the moment. Not only is that not fair to people who plan ahead, it's bad business, you don't take a maybe when you have a yes.

Think of it this way, you're having a garage sale from 7-11. Do you hold back some of the merchandise from people who want to buy it at 9am, because someone might want it at 10:30? That's ludicrous.

:sulley:

respectfully.....

your argument has holes in it the size of swiss cheese.....

Without getting into a whinefest...i'll throw out a few.

1. Many people...particularly DVC, Annual Passes holders....and especially Florida and Georgia residents....don't plan their trips six months or more in advance. They shouldn't have to...short term business is just as important to WDWs business as longterm bookings. It's ludicris to foster a system that intentionally makes it impossible for those poeple to enjoy sitdowns...and in the long run, may drive them away. this is particularly bad for florida residents...many of whom decide midweek to come for a long weekend....and, more than out of state travelers, come SPECIFICALLY to go to their favorite restaurants.

2. The public can not be trusted, frankly, not to abuse the system and book duplicate reservations. I worked in guest services...I have seen this with my own eyes. And that is not fair. I'll tell you why...even if there are no shows....you may go the restaurant at 5:30 and get turned away...then later...at 8:00...they accept someone else to fill in the no show tables on the back end of the night. That is not write...form an honor standpoint....to anyone.

3. You are basically saying that if you don't book reservations 6 months out...then you get what you deserve. some...many...don't know their schedules that far out. some are so busy that they cannot get on the phone with dining at 6:50 in the morning the first day a reservation would be available. And some just don't have the time to devote to planning a vacation in a defined time window. Life is hectic for all people to varying degrees....if everyone pays the same price....then it is unfair to make it so they have to call 185 days to make a lunch date at crystal palace. that is ridiculous. I think they should go back to a 90 day window...or even a 60 day window for as long as the dining plan overloads the table service restaurants. Then more people would have a sense of what they're doing and the field would be leveled.

No offense....but you seem to be saying that your way is the only way that is acceptable.

Not everyone should have a specific version of "fun" jammed down their throat.....

Like....Splash Mountain: 3:15.....Tony's: 4:45...Scheduled bathroom break: 5:41

[llamaface]

Man, if this is the case, I would buy points at either of those places without even thinking about it. We love the Poly, and that it is what is holding us back from doing DVC at the moment.

DITTO!!!

[big blue and hairy]

respectfully.....

your argument has holes in it the size of swiss cheese.....


No offense....but you seem to be saying that your way is the only way that is acceptable.

Not everyone should have a specific version of "fun" jammed down their throat.....

Like....Splash Mountain: 3:15.....Tony's: 4:45...Scheduled bathroom break: 5:41
First of all...you're completely off base. I didn't set the time period for making reservations, and I'm not saying it couldn't be shortened. I was fine with 90 days.

I believe by accusing me saying a specific version should be foisted on everyone, you are saying just that, you want it your way, the way that works for you. If Disney wants to shorten the time for ADRS to 30 days, I could care less, I just make the system work for me and work according to the rules. I don't believe reservations should be partially held back.

As for the Carrabbas reference, they take no reservations, that would be different. What you are proposing would be chaos with people wandering looking for a place to eat, and am quite certain more people would be put out by it than the current policy, regardless of the amount of days ahead of time you call.

My cheese is cheddar, thank you....:D

:sulley:

[big blue and hairy]

25 years ago when you visited E.P.C.O.T. Center, first thing you did in the morning was sprinted to Communicore to talk to a host on a video phone to make dinner reservations in World Showcase.

25 years ago, a lot fewer people were going to Epcot, we've progressed technologically in 25 years. Like I said, the length of the window doesn't matter to me. If the window is there, I'm using it, and I shouldn't be unable to use it because someone else doesn't want to.

:sulley:

[Ian]

So...with that logic, I who plan my vacations ahead, will not be able to get an ADR, because you might want go at the spur of the moment. Not only is that not fair to people who plan ahead, it's bad business, you don't take a maybe when you have a yes.I love ya BB&H, so don't take this personally, but ...........

You're a little off base here, I think. Admittedly, it might be my skewed perspective, but I don't think so.

First off, they're not passing up a maybe for a yes. They're passing up a maybe for another maybe. Just because someone makes an ADR is no guarantee they're going to use it. It's just a guarantee that Disney has to hold a table for them for 180 days. We both know that many people make ADR's they have no intention of keeping.

And what that does is, it discourages people who call last minute and are told there's no availability from walking up. If people cancel last minute (or more likely not at all), those will be tables that are unused.

For example, say I wander up to Chefs De France at 5:55PM and ask for table. They can't give me one because the McGuillicutty party has a reservation for four at 6PM. I go away disappointed and hungry and end up spending 10 bucks on a cheeseburger instead of 50 bucks on a big steak.

Meantime, the McGuillicutty party is sitting down eating at Liberty Tree Tavern because they ended up in MK today and that was where they made their MK reservation. They also have a reservation at Brown Derby and at Boma that they blew off in favor of LTT.

So guess what? Those ADR's meant exactly bubkes to Disney.

You sort of implied that we don't like current policy because it doesn't work in our favor, but I sort of get the idea that if they did it the way we suggest you'd take issue because it doesn't work in your favor (or vice versa, you're fine with the way it is now because it does work in your favor).

I guess what I'm saying is, we're all biased to one degree or another. Even so ... can't we all just get along!!? ;)

[Cinderelley]

Well, it seems like the best thing to do would be to refuse duplicate ADRs. Why can't Disney set up a system that alerts CMs to people who are making multiple reservations? They already ask for your phone number.

No matter how you set up the dining system, you will have people who take advantage of the loopholes and people who are turned away at meal time - whether or not there's a dining plan, ADRS are made 180 days out, 90 days out or no reservations at all.

[pshokie]

That has been discussed a lot in other threads. The only solution anyone could come up with was some sort of monetary penalty for not canecelling an ADR "in a sufficient time". What does that mean???? Well that depends on the poster. ;) 24 hours prior, 12 hours prior, before ADR time, etc., you get the picture. And how much???? As for the phone numbers, cell phone, home phone, work phone, etc. etc. To easy to work the system.

What I think is the real issue here is the expectation people have of what Table Service Dining options should be available to them. Now here me out...Disney is not like any other place, be it a big city or small town. The fact is, on a daily basis Disney has a lot of people that are looking for some sort of dinner every night. Why? because they cannot cook for themselves. Well, they could, if the made extra for the Fire Marshall. :D

I could not place what made Disney different (that is, differ from Carrabbas, Friday's, etc.)
until the drive home and then it hit me. Figure 10,000 rooms at 4 people per room (I rounded the rooms down to account for DVCers), that's 40,000 people. And I know that number is low.

When else do this many people in a concentrated setting "dine out" all at once on a single day?

Mother's Day.

Now, if I were to look at this as if it were Mother's day, I know there is no way I can get into any decent restaurant as a walk up. Just ain't gonna happen. Too many other people are trapped as well, have to take Mom out to treat her special. If you are not booking weeks in advance, you are shut out.

This sound a lot like Disney.

So its not a Friday night a Carrabbas, but the second Sunday in May. It just happens to be that way 365 days a year at Disney.

For the record, I think the 180 day window is ridiculous. I am good with 45 days. That is the the final payment is due for packages anyway.

And one last thing, while I get LockedOut & Ian's frustration, I cannot help but wonder what would happen if walk-ups/same day ADRs are "re-instituted" at the current DDP/ADR levels. My opinion, people would figure out how to work the system (just like they do now) and it would make things much much worse. I could go into my thoughts on this but this is long enough already. But I have yet to see one person (either 180 or Same Day advocate) articulate exactly how their change to the system would work in the real world. Not theoretically, but actualy put it into play in your minds eye and see what happens.

Maybe I'll post my thoughts on that later...

Oh, and following Ian's suggestion.... :cheers:
I think that would be called getting along.

[lockedoutlogic]

First of all...you're completely off base. I didn't set the time period for making reservations, and I'm not saying it couldn't be shortened. I was fine with 90 days.

I believe by accusing me saying a specific version should be foisted on everyone, you are saying just that, you want it your way, the way that works for you. If Disney wants to shorten the time for ADRS to 30 days, I could care less, I just make the system work for me and work according to the rules. I don't believe reservations should be partially held back.

As for the Carrabbas reference, they take no reservations, that would be different. What you are proposing would be chaos with people wandering looking for a place to eat, and am quite certain more people would be put out by it than the current policy, regardless of the amount of days ahead of time you call.

My cheese is cheddar, thank you....:D

:sulley:


what happened to the middle 3 paragraphs of my post?

If you gut the post....especially the logic for the argument....you pretty much always come out looking like aces.....

Try Swiss...seriously....:thumbsup:

[big blue and hairy]

what happened to the middle 3 paragraphs of my post?

If you gut the post....especially the logic for the argument....you pretty much always come out looking like aces.....

Try Swiss...seriously....:thumbsup:

Noooooo.....I didn't gut your post, I just made it short so folks knew which post I was refering to. Your post is still here isn't it?

Cheddar baby, cheddar....:D

:sulley:

[big blue and hairy]

I love ya BB&H, so don't take this personally, but ...........

You're a little off base here, I think. Admittedly, it might be my skewed perspective, but I don't think so.

First off, they're not passing up a maybe for a yes. They're passing up a maybe for another maybe. Just because someone makes an ADR is no guarantee they're going to use it. It's just a guarantee that Disney has to hold a table for them for 180 days. We both know that many people make ADR's they have no intention of keeping.

And what that does is, it discourages people who call last minute and are told there's no availability from walking up. If people cancel last minute (or more likely not at all), those will be tables that are unused.

For example, say I wander up to Chefs De France at 5:55PM and ask for table. They can't give me one because the McGuillicutty party has a reservation for four at 6PM. I go away disappointed and hungry and end up spending 10 bucks on a cheeseburger instead of 50 bucks on a big steak.

Meantime, the McGuillicutty party is sitting down eating at Liberty Tree Tavern because they ended up in MK today and that was where they made their MK reservation. They also have a reservation at Brown Derby and at Boma that they blew off in favor of LTT.

So guess what? Those ADR's meant exactly bubkes to Disney.

You sort of implied that we don't like current policy because it doesn't work in our favor, but I sort of get the idea that if they did it the way we suggest you'd take issue because it doesn't work in your favor (or vice versa, you're fine with the way it is now because it does work in your favor).

I guess what I'm saying is, we're all biased to one degree or another. Even so ... can't we all just get along!!? ;)

I completely agree that some people abuse the system, just as they would abuse any system. Seriously Ian, think about it a minute, do you really think the majority of ADRs are being abused? Unless you actually believe that, you have to agree that WDW is getting more table filled this way.

I understand you frustration, but hey, if you find out when the next ADR runs out, you could wait a few minutes and maybe get that table. I believe the hypothetical LTT people would have had to do that.

The Mother's Day analogy was a good one. Every day at WDW is a special occasion for everybody, so most people want to make reservations for their meal.

Like I said earlier, I would have no problem if the window was shorter, but trying to hold some back for a month, some for two months, some for walk-ups, you're just asking for a cluster... WDW isn't going to do it, it would be harder to keep track.

Glad ya love me, though ;)

:offtopic: What happened to WDWacky?

:sulley:

[lockedoutlogic]

I completely agree that some people abuse the system, just as they would abuse any system. Seriously Ian, think about it a minute, do you really think the majority of ADRs are being abused? Unless you actually believe that, you have to agree that WDW is getting more table filled this way.

I understand you frustration, but hey, if you find out when the next ADR runs out, you could wait a few minutes and maybe get that table. I believe the hypothetical LTT people would have had to do that.

The Mother's Day analogy was a good one. Every day at WDW is a special occasion for everybody, so most people want to make reservations for their meal.

Like I said earlier, I would have no problem if the window was shorter, but trying to hold some back for a month, some for two months, some for walk-ups, you're just asking for a cluster... WDW isn't going to do it, it would be harder to keep track.

Glad ya love me, though ;)

:offtopic: What happened to WDWacky?

:sulley:

Here's the bottomline....to cut to it as succinctly as I can.....

The dining plan has completely altered the dining experience. Better for some....not so much for others....

The fact is that Disney did have a system in place that allowed for flexibility in dealing with it's varying types of clientele.....

But now it's gone....and the dining plan is the culprit.
There is some motivation there...I don't believe Disney is making more of food revenue under the dining plan than it did before it. The numbers just don't lead to that. Food is a relatively low profit revenue source...supplies and overhead is high.

So there is a reason....I have put alot of thought into it...and I can only see one true potential advantage to having people show up with everything prepaid under the package/dining plans....

...that is because there is one thing that still is not prepaid: merchandise.

Now you have families who have had basically an all inclusive prepaid for months show up armed with...what they perceived as...more free cash in their pockets....
And where does that fee cash then end up? you guessed it...world of disney.

This has to be the angle....I know better than almost anyone not paid a 6 figure salary by disney....and that is the advantage to locked in food prices. They are not really making much off the dining plan revenues with the rates that way they are...especially compared to the menu prices and fast food costs.

So here's why I hate the dining plan and reservation system.....it has herded people like sheep to where disney has wanted them to go...and that is in locked out and standing room only scenarios...as if they didn't have enough of those in the first place.


One final note: the problem with duplicate bookings and reservations is that the CMs at the restaurants have been...basically...throwing the walk ups out of the door at the beginning of the meal periods. They automatically assume that there will be no no shows...even though they have them every day. So it is possible that I could get a table at 7:45 at LTT when someone who was willing to wait an hour at 5:30 would have long sinced ended up at Cosmic Rays.....

That is not right....and I have watched it happen on about 10 trips since 2003....

that is disgusting.....everyone pays dearly to go....some should not suffer more because they don't "know" to exploit the system.
IT is up to Disney to attempt to close the loopholes.

I also...personally have told people, politely, that they should not double book reservations when I have heard them say it at WDW.
In life, no one should take something they don't intend to use...I make no bones about how inconsiderate this practice is....

[big blue and hairy]

Here's the bottomline....to cut to it as succinctly as I can.....

The dining plan has completely altered the dining experience. Better for some....not so much for others....

The fact is that Disney did have a system in place that allowed for flexibility in dealing with it's varying types of clientele.....

But now it's gone....and the dining plan is the culprit.
There is some motivation there...I don't believe Disney is making more of food revenue under the dining plan than it did before it. The numbers just don't lead to that. Food is a relatively low profit revenue source...supplies and overhead is high.

So there is a reason....I have put alot of thought into it...and I can only see one true potential advantage to having people show up with everything prepaid under the package/dining plans....

...that is because there is one thing that still is not prepaid: merchandise.

Now you have families who have had basically an all inclusive prepaid for months show up armed with...what they perceived as...more free cash in their pockets....
And where does that fee cash then end up? you guessed it...world of disney.

This has to be the angle....I know better than almost anyone not paid a 6 figure salary by disney....and that is the advantage to locked in food prices. They are not really making much off the dining plan revenues with the rates that way they are...especially compared to the menu prices and fast food costs.

So here's why I hate the dining plan and reservation system.....it has herded people like sheep to where disney has wanted them to go...and that is in locked out and standing room only scenarios...as if they didn't have enough of those in the first place.


One final note: the problem with duplicate bookings and reservations is that the CMs at the restaurants have been...basically...throwing the walk ups out of the door at the beginning of the meal periods. They automatically assume that there will be no no shows...even though they have them every day. So it is possible that I could get a table at 7:45 at LTT when someone who was willing to wait an hour at 5:30 would have long sinced ended up at Cosmic Rays.....

That is not right....and I have watched it happen on about 10 trips since 2003....

that is disgusting.....everyone pays dearly to go....some should not suffer more because they don't "know" to exploit the system.
IT is up to Disney to attempt to close the loopholes.

I also...personally have told people, politely, that they should not double book reservations when I have heard them say it at WDW.
In life, no one should take something they don't intend to use...I make no bones about how inconsiderate this practice is....
I agree with everything you just said. I don't agree about making ADR's, but that's not the dining plan. There really ought to be some way to keep folks from double booking or at least make it harder. Some people will always cheat the system, but as much as you can minmize it, the better.

Pre-paid dining does kind of have the same effect as package delivery, it just makes spending money sooooo much easier, just like the Mouse likes it....

:sulley:

[pshokie]

But now it's gone....and the dining plan is the culprit.
There is some motivation there...I don't believe Disney is making more of food revenue under the dining plan than it did before it. The numbers just don't lead to that. Food is a relatively low profit revenue source...supplies and overhead is high.

So there is a reason....I have put alot of thought into it...and I can only see one true potential advantage to having people show up with everything prepaid under the package/dining plans....

...that is because there is one thing that still is not prepaid: merchandise.

Now you have families who have had basically an all inclusive prepaid for months show up armed with...what they perceived as...more free cash in their pockets....
And where does that fee cash then end up? you guessed it...world of disney.



Pre-paid dining does kind of have the same effect as package delivery, it just makes spending money sooooo much easier, just like the Mouse likes it....

I think you guys are really getting to the root of the problem. Granted, I do not know how to fix it, but....

To tack onto this, I think the DDP does give the feeling of "dinner is free". I know I have felt that way. You're full after the meal, but you still have desert to go. Hey, why not, after all its free. Now granted I know is not free but rather pre-paid. But in the moment, I think you guys understand the feeling I am trying to convey.

As for the ADRs, I do not think it takes a flashlight and a road map to figure out that the DDP has increased the need for ADRs. But I also think that ADRs also play into this notion of dining being pre-paid/free. And the way it plays in involves "standing around time". I look at ADRs almost as a version of Fastpass. An ADR allows you to wonder the parks longer, thus providing the potential to spend more money. Just as Fastpass keeps you out of line and allows you the potential to spend more money.

Now granted, it is not a certainty that people will use this potential to spend money rather that ride rides, but it still does create the the freedom to do so.

I think this is one master-created plan to get people to:
1) Think they have extra "free" money
2) Create the opportunity for them to go out and spend it.

Evil but brilliant when you think about it.

[Ian]

Actually I think you are all right on the money ... the DDP is brilliant when you think about it in that context.

It costs what? $35 a day or so as an add-on to a package? I'd be willing to bet that comes close to covering their actual costs for what the average guest eats. They probably lose a little bit, but not too much.

But on the upside, to get the DDP you have to purchase a "package" (which is a higher margin item for Disney) and it forces you to pre-pay for your meals upfront. How many people do you think adjust the amount of spending money they bring on a trip to account for that? I know I don't!

So yeah ... people show up with pockets loaded with spending money and nothing to spend it on. You better bet they're going home loaded down with souvenirs, not to mention overpriced photos, receipts for boat rentals, massages, etc. Basically, Disney shifted where guests spend their free cash from lower margin items to higher margin items and did it invisibly, while making it look like we're all getting a deal.

And it's actually even better when they give it for free! So what, they lose out on a few extra bucks a day, but guess what? You pay rack rate for that room you're staying in, you have to buy expensive park passes, etc.

BRILLIANT!

[big blue and hairy]

Actually I think you are all right on the money ... the DDP is brilliant when you think about it in that context.

It costs what? $35 a day or so as an add-on to a package? I'd be willing to bet that comes close to covering their actual costs for what the average guest eats. They probably lose a little bit, but not too much.

But on the upside, to get the DDP you have to purchase a "package" (which is a higher margin item for Disney) and it forces you to pre-pay for your meals upfront. How many people do you think adjust the amount of spending money they bring on a trip to account for that? I know I don't!

So yeah ... people show up with pockets loaded with spending money and nothing to spend it on. You better bet they're going home loaded down with souvenirs, not to mention overpriced photos, receipts for boat rentals, massages, etc. Basically, Disney shifted where guests spend their free cash from lower margin items to higher margin items and did it invisibly, while making it look like we're all getting a deal.

And it's actually even better when they give it for free! So what, they lose out on a few extra bucks a day, but guess what? You pay rack rate for that room you're staying in, you have to buy expensive park passes, etc.

BRILLIANT!

Plus, most people probably either stay longer or choose to upgrade the room with the free dining, I know I would. The Mouse is no dummy....

:sulley:

[lockedoutlogic]

I'll remember yinz (sorry...my native pittsburghese is leaking out:secret:) when someone throws out the

"free dining (or DDP) is disney's way of making the magic affordable for everyone"
line of thought

and of course...I am honor bound to wield the reality stick.

I believe that falling for every sales pitch that they disguise as "guest service" is a sure fire way to guarantee that room rates, tickets, and all other experiences will steadily increase for years to come..

Hey...I love Disney as much as anyone....but not recognizing that you are being peddled a product and feeding the monster by blindly following it to its lair...in the end...lightens all our wallets.
And that is the only thing that shuts out those that could use a break to experience WDW.

you know...when I worked at WDW....we often talked about who we went out of our way for:

The six time a year person from the Northeast?
Or the first timer from the plains?

Management's take would always be the former...but to a person...the rank and file's answer would be the latter.

To see an adult (even moreso than a child's) face light up with awe and sheer pleasure when they see something completely unique and foreign to them is one of the absolute greatest things to witness in the world. There is...literally nothing like it. Even when it's a complete stranger that you will never see again.

:cloud9:

Ahhh...nevermind....Anyway, The Dining Plan is going to start going up in cost anyway....they just won't be able to resist beating that horse...:beer:

[glenpreece]

Actually I think you are all right on the money ... the DDP is brilliant when you think about it in that context.

It costs what? $35 a day or so as an add-on to a package? I'd be willing to bet that comes close to covering their actual costs for what the average guest eats. They probably lose a little bit, but not too much.

But on the upside, to get the DDP you have to purchase a "package" (which is a higher margin item for Disney) and it forces you to pre-pay for your meals upfront. How many people do you think adjust the amount of spending money they bring on a trip to account for that? I know I don't!

So yeah ... people show up with pockets loaded with spending money and nothing to spend it on. You better bet they're going home loaded down with souvenirs, not to mention overpriced photos, receipts for boat rentals, massages, etc. Basically, Disney shifted where guests spend their free cash from lower margin items to higher margin items and did it invisibly, while making it look like we're all getting a deal.

And it's actually even better when they give it for free! So what, they lose out on a few extra bucks a day, but guess what? You pay rack rate for that room you're staying in, you have to buy expensive park passes, etc.

BRILLIANT!

This is exactly how I see it. Feed 'em for cheap and then they can blow their money on toys, shirts etc, You've hit the nail on the head. If there was no fdp this year I wouldn't be going back so soon.

[Cinderelley]

Okay, I hate to sound really naive here, but how do you know that the increase in ADRS is from the DDP? (aside from the obvious time of the free DDP) I admit that I'm relatively new to WDW, our first trip was in 2005, but tourism took a big hit in 2001 and has slowly recovered. Could it just be that people are now starting to "vacation" again, so more people are going to WDW, even without the DDP? Could the increase in ADRs just be because there are more people going now?

This will be my first trip using DDP, just because it is free when we are going, but I've made ADRs during all of my trips for the table service restaurants that we did want. We would never buy the DDP because it is cheaper to do it the way my DH likes it - breakfast that we brought from home in the room. Counter service for lunch & counter service for dinner. There are some table service restaurants that we book for the experience, but generally Less time eating = more time for rides.

[Ian]

Okay, I hate to sound really naive here, but how do you know that the increase in ADRS is from the DDP? (aside from the obvious time of the free DDP) I admit that I'm relatively new to WDW, our first trip was in 2005, but tourism took a big hit in 2001 and has slowly recovered. Could it just be that people are now starting to "vacation" again, so more people are going to WDW, even without the DDP? Could the increase in ADRs just be because there are more people going now?

This will be my first trip using DDP, just because it is free when we are going, but I've made ADRs during all of my trips for the table service restaurants that we did want. We would never buy the DDP because it is cheaper to do it the way my DH likes it - breakfast that we brought from home in the room. Counter service for lunch & counter service for dinner. There are some table service restaurants that we book for the experience, but generally Less time eating = more time for rides.No, because I've been going to Disney annually for over a decade (i.e. pre-9/11) and it was not like this before then either.

It's defintely the DDP ... I can tell because the two coincided exactly. The minute they started pushing the DDP was when ADR's became like gold.

[BrerSchultzy]

DDP has definitely boosted the amount of ADRs made...if a family stays for 8 nights, they're now eating a sit down meal every single night, whereas before, that may have been three or four times (at most). In fact, that is exactly why we DON'T do the DDP...we just can't eat that much food.

But to the point of ADRs...I don't think Disney will ever bother to "fix" the problem (except possibly moving the 180 day window to 90 days). Why should they? Their restaurants are booked...and they could EASILY raise the price of DDP, and they'd still be booked. For example, if you are on the DDP with a party of more than six....good luck getting a table within 30 minutes of your ADR. They just don't have the space to sit everyone together.

I don't think the abuse of the ADRs is as prevalent as everyone makes them out to be. And even if it was, it would probably be so regular a practice as to be calculated into the matrix so that the canceled ADRs are accounted for in how many ADRs they can give out for each restaurant.

Just my .02

[Cinderelley]

No, because I've been going to Disney annually for over a decade (i.e. pre-9/11) and it was not like this before then either.

It's defintely the DDP ... I can tell because the two coincided exactly. The minute they started pushing the DDP was when ADR's became like gold.

I wish I'd been going that long. :D I did notice that when I've been calling for our upcoming trip, they are pushing the ADRs. I can't get off the phone without them saying something like "Can I help you with anything else, like dinner reservations?"

[lockedoutlogic]

I wish I'd been going that long. :D I did notice that when I've been calling for our upcoming trip, they are pushing the ADRs. I can't get off the phone without them saying something like "Can I help you with anything else, like dinner reservations?"

they're "pushing" the ADRs because if they don't...the people that show up and get shut out will raise hell....

Not good for the atmosphere...an idea of what restaurants are more popular also help them tweak menus, hours....and most importantly...portions and prices.