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Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 59 of 59
  1. #41
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    Disney 2002, thank you for putting the point I was attempting to put across better than I did it.

    There is NOT A CHANCE ON EARTH that 94% of people believe in a supreme being. It will be a TV Company statistician at work, nothing more.

    Incidentally, if that quote by George Bush Snr. is genuine then I find that downright discusting. As was said - just substitute "African American" or "Homosexual" into that phrase.
    I've got a dirty thumb.

    The People of Anandapur and the Royal Anandapur Wildlife and Forestry Authority trust you will enjoy your walk and ask that you respect and honor these lovely creatures with behavior appropriate for peaceful co-existence.

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  3. #42
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    These comments are of a general nature, not directly related to the Pledge of Allegiance ruling.

    I think what's upsetting me about this whole debate is the lack of historical context. This nation WAS founded as a result of religous intolerance, and it WAS founded as one nation under God. Any attempt to discredit these basic historical facts is a disservice to the men and women who quite literally changed the world, first by settling this continent, then by instituting the first truly democratic form of government.

    Read the Declaration of Independence which is THE founding document of the United States.

    The first few sentences read:

    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


    As was mentioned previously, the Constitution does NOT dictate a separation of Church and State, it just prohibits the establishment of a national religion. My history lessons taught me that the founding fathers wanted all religions to be given respect, and all citizens be given the right to practice freely and openly however, whenever, and wherever the citizen wishes to practice it.

    The courts have interpreted this "freedom of religion" phrase to be "freedom from religion". With each decision, religion can be practiced freely in fewer and fewer places, and in fewer and fewer ways. With each judicial decision, more and more religious freedom is being taken away.

    It upsets me that the very documents that were meant to ensure that citizens could practice any religion they choose are now being turned around to slowly REDUCE the amount of religious freedom individuals have.

    As an aside, if Congress feels that the Constitution is an outdated document and the original intentions irrelevant, perhaps they should initiate a new Constitution to reflect todays values. I suspect if that was done, many people would be surprised by just how many people would want it to stay exactly the way it was intended.

    [ July 02, 2002, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: goofgal ]
    Karen

    --------------------------------

    Stressed is desserts spelled backwards.

    Question everything!

  4. #43
    Disney2002 Guest

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    Originally posted by goofgal:
    These comments are of a general nature, not directly related to the Pledge of Allegiance ruling.

    I think what's upsetting me about this whole debate is the lack of historical context. This nation WAS founded as a result of religous intolerance, and it WAS founded as one nation under God.
    How can you say it was founded "under god"? The problem is that this statement is meaningless to those who do not believe in a god.

  5. #44
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    Just wanted to say that I'm proud of being a part of a board in which people who disagree can make very persuasive, articulate arguments. I'm saving this thread for my kids in case they ever have to argue this in school.

    As far as "majority rules," that doesn't apply in interpretation of the Constitution, unless you mean the majority of Supreme Court justices. Yes, we are a democracy, but all that means is that we get to elect our representative leaders, with the ones getting the most votes (the majority) winning. Although there are even loopholes in this, as we saw in the last presidential election.

    [ July 02, 2002, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Aurora ]
    Many visits over 35+ years!
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  6. #45
    piget Guest

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    All I can say is - thank you Steelygirl and Evabryan!!!! voices of reason - I love the points you made and the way you made them!!! I totally agree - and I learned something!!!

    AND...I completely disagree that post Sept 11 - we should not be having this type of discussion..."to be divisive as a country". Maybe this is the best time! - I refuse to let anyone - or their actions keep me from practicing the rights I have in this country - it's part of what makes it so great!! AND...I also refuse to "love it or leave" I will stay right here and fight to make it better!!!!

    [ July 02, 2002, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: piget ]

  7. #46
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    Originally posted by Disney2002:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by goofgal:
    These comments are of a general nature, not directly related to the Pledge of Allegiance ruling.

    I think what's upsetting me about this whole debate is the lack of historical context. This nation WAS founded as a result of religous intolerance, and it WAS founded as one nation under God.
    How can you say it was founded "under god"? The problem is that this statement is meaningless to those who do not believe in a god.</font>[/QUOTE]IT`s quite easy! This country was founded by very religious men! and they made sure to put "god" in the constituion to show this.
    Darthdarrel,President of the IASW dolls and doll protectors!<br />----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Just say YES to Cotton candy!

  8. #47
    Disney2002 Guest

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    [/qb][/QUOTE]IT`s quite easy! This country was founded by very religious men! and they made sure to put "god" in the constituion to show this.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    Actually that's not true. Most of them put their Free Masonry ideals WAY before any belief in a god. This was an era on Enlightenment... of rational thought moving away from the ideas of a god. Furthermore, if I said this was one nation under Santa, and I believe in Santa even though he doesn't exist -- then this nation is not actually under Santa. It's under nothing (and not to digress too much here, but doesn't the wording "under" imply Christian conceptions of heaven?) Now I don't believe that the US is a nation under nothing. I believe it's composed of excellent, hard work people.

  9. #48
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    Smile

    Thank you piget!! And I completely agree that it's nice to see we can have a good discussion on this topic. I think it's one of the things that makes this country great! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] And I also agree with your statement about 9/11 - now is the BEST time to discuss these things and ensure our civil liberties as a whole don't get run over because we are in a time of war. But I won't get into all that.

    And one more point:

    IT`s quite easy! This country was founded by very religious men! and they made sure to put "god" in the constituion to show this.
    "God" is NOT in the Constitution! Check for yourself: I did a search of the Constitution for the words "God," "Almighty," and "Creator" and found nothing. So unless my "find" feature isn't working in Internet Explorer, God doesn't appear in the Constitution. And lest my source be questioned again , that link is for a copy of the Constitution provided by the United States House of Representatives website.

  10. #49
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    Though this has a few errors, it's basic statements can pretty much be verified.

    Founding Fathers

    As a kid, our teachers told us we could leave out the 'Under God' part. It never became an issue. I understand the courts ruling, but also see some of the other arguements listed above.

    Freedom of Speech is a wonderful thing as long as we are all allowed to speak our views.
    I respect just about all religions. I believe in God, just can't believe in any church. They all seem to have a small piece of the puzzle but are hampered by those who want to force square pegs in round wholes.
    Make Friends With The Badger

  11. #50
    imported_dpamac Guest

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    You know, that's the beauty of a democratic nation. Government officials aside, we can have this debate freely, sanely and without worry.

    No matter which side of the fence you are on, this whole debate, to me, proves that our system is working.

    How? A court makes a decision. The people raise their voices, the court puts the decision on hold. It will be appealed, and voices will be heard.

    Voices will be heard. Those who don't believe that "under God" belongs, those who do and those who don't care.

    Our voices are being heard. And, as petty as some people think this issue is, I think it's a healthy discussion that allows many of us to realize that a democratic country is made up of many people with different ideas, backgrounds, races, creeds, religions, beliefs, etc. who work towards a common goal and that is the preservation of our freedom and liberty.

    Personally, I'm proud to be associated with a group of people who can so argue their points so eloquently. Kudos to all of you.

    And you still don't know which side the coin on which I fall. Heh heh.

  12. #51
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    Gary's a closet Libertarian
    Make Friends With The Badger

  13. #52
    imported_dpamac Guest

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    Originally posted by JimmyC:
    Gary's a closet Libertarian
    If Libertarian means that I like Liberace fan, then you're wrong.

    As Groucho used to say, I would never belong to a club that would have me as a member.

  14. #53
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    You know, this whole discussion points out a very serious flaw in our whole system of law. Unfortunately, I don't have any idea how you go about correcting this flaw.

    If you can, take the fact that this whole argument is about God, the pledge and all those other emotional hot buttons.

    Ok, so this child has a right to not be exposed to religion. Doesn't my child have a right to be exposed to it. In other words, when you say that one person has a right not to do something that means you are inherently taking away someone elses right to do it. You are forever trapped in a catch 22.

    Just think about it!

  15. #54
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    Folks, please take a few minutes to turn up the speakers on your PCs and listen to this discourse on the Pledge of Allegiance done by the late comedian Red Skelton. I can guarantee it will give all a new outlook on the Pledge.

    God Bless America !

  16. #55
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    Originally posted by dpamac:
    And you still don't know which side the coin on which I fall. Heh heh.
    Betcha I do.
    Many visits over 35+ years!
    DVC member since 2004 (SSR)

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  17. #56
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    OK, honestly, I really wasn't going to reply to this anymore, but since I'm already knee-deep in it, might as well!

    I know this is difficult, folks, but we have to focus on the issue - focus focus focus!!!

    Originally posted by Jasper:
    Ok, so this child has a right to not be exposed to religion. Doesn't my child have a right to be exposed to it. In other words, when you say that one person has a right not to do something that means you are inherently taking away someone elses right to do it. You are forever trapped in a catch 22.
    This is NOT a serious flaw. You're not understanding the issue. Let's see if I can break this down: The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals never said that that child had a "right" to NOT be exposed to religion, ever. Heck, she's going to be exposed to a LOT of things in her life that her father probably isn't going to like. That point is completely irrelevant. The courts in this country do not and have not ever made rulings on the general practice of religion in this country, outside of government. The only time a court will hear a case and make a decision on a religious matter is if there's a government entity or a government-sponsored entity (in this case, the public, tax-payer-supported SCHOOL!) allegedly involving or sponsoring religion. A court is not going to rule that you cannot pray on the street, in your home, in church, in the shower, in your car, etc. A court is not going to rule that you (or your child) cannot pray in school even. They step in (when someone brings a case) on issues where the government might be considered to be sponsoring or endorsing some kind of religion. As an American citizen, you have the right to expose your child to any religion you so choose (well, assuming you don't break any other laws in there anywhere)! NO ONE is taking that away from you! But no, as long as he/she goes to a PUBLIC school, he/she will not get it (religion) in school. See the difference?

    Please, someone show me one instance where a court made a ruling that somehow prohibited an American's right to worship as they please that did not involve any government entity or government-supported entity - this includes govt buildings, schools, etc. Every time we hear of issues like this, the government is involved. These cases are all about the First Amendment. They are NOT about taking away your right to practice your religion!! With the exception of a case where maybe the worship or religious practice harmed another human being or violated that person's right to life, liberty or property, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single case where an American's right to worship was violated, outside the conditions I just gave.

    What we are discussing is religion in government!! Let's stop acting like the courts in this country are on a crusade to take religion away from everyone. It's simply untrue.

    Am I the only one that can see this distinction?

  18. #57
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    But that is my point, I want my child to be exposed to religion at school as well as at home and church. So my child should have the right to say the pledge out loud at school if they so desire just as that child should have the right to not say the pledge at school. However, my child is having their right to say the pledge out loud at school taken away from them so in the end they are having their right trampled upon.

    See what I mean: you can't make a ruling on something like this without taking something away from someone else.

    By the way, my comments are not intended to reflect on what I believe in this case, I am playing devil's advocate and wish to keep my true feelings to my self.

  19. #58
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    Originally posted by Jasper:
    But that is my point, I want my child to be exposed to religion at school as well as at home and church.
    I'm not picking on you, Jasper, I promise!

    I don't mean this to sound flippant (and I know it's going to), but then send your child to a private school, or home school him/her. That's your option. But you cannot expect a state supported school to have officially sanctioned activities (in this case, the Pledge) that involve religion. It violates the First Amendment. It's just not going to happen. As long as your child is in a public school, (s)he shouldn't be exposed to religion in any official manner, by law.

    I should add, though, that I think banning the Pledge is the wrong solution. I think the more appropriate solution is removing the "under God" portion.

    Also, there is no law that would ever keep your child from saying the Pledge (with or without "under God"). (S)he may not get to do it at an official time, in unison, with the rest of the class, but there is no way anyone can prevent that child from reciting the Pledge if they so desire (well, OK - unless they're yelling it out loud in the middle of class and then it's just a discipline issue! ). So your child's rights have not been taken away.

    And on that note, I would like, in all sincerity, to wish everyone a very happy and safe 4th of July! I know my views aren't popular, but the debate is a fun one. And this kind of discourse is an integral part of our society in America. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

    Happy 4th!!!!

  20. #59
    Disney2002 Guest

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    Originally posted by Jasper:

    Ok, so this child has a right to not be exposed to religion. Doesn't my child have a right to be exposed to it. In other words, when you say that one person has a right not to do something that means you are inherently taking away someone elses right to do it. You are forever trapped in a catch 22.

    Just think about it!
    Your child has the right to be exposed to it while the other child has the right NOT to be exposed to it. Therefore, in a public forum such as the schools, based on the logical binary nature of exposure, there cannot be any religion. The reason is that in the home, you can then choose to supplement your daughter's religious life. However, for the other girl, her parents cannot un-expose her!

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