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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park Hopper View Post
    Wow, it is refreshing to see an adult exchange/conversation on this topic. The other Disney board that I look at is incapable of this kind of exchange without blame, name-calling, and general melt-down!
    Yeah, well, a long time ago I realized that what is really important in this life is our relationships with others. And melting down (or name-calling) doesn't help at all. Can't have a discussion when communication breaks down.
    2002 - 2017: 20+ visits (POR, BW, All Stars, VWL, CSR, BLT, BC, SSR, CB, Dolphin, OKW, offsite x4)
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  4. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park Hopper View Post
    Wow, it is refreshing to see an adult exchange/conversation on this topic. The other Disney board that I look at is incapable of this kind of exchange without blame, name-calling, and general melt-down!
    It is.

    And I do feel bad for the minority of people that do have immune issues (for whatever reasons, conditions, age, etc). But, I'm concerned about my mortgage, and the mortgage/rent/food on the table for those that need money and can't sit around not working for 6 months or longer. I've lived in places where money is scare, and, yeah, a virus is dangerous. So are desperate and hopeless people. Way more dangerous. So that's why to me, it is a numbers game. The needs of the many vs the few. But, I do hope those are affected by the virus (rather hoping to avoid it) are able to do so.

    And like I said, I want my gator walking down mainstreet. Or, Hollywood blvd towards Manns.
    ===================

    2016 POR
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    2014 Disneyland-offsite
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    2013 Dolphin
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  5. #23
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    For those who have studied economics, we know that there not only cost of doing something (taking action), but also a cost of not doing something (inaction). Many times, the cost of inaction can be greater than taking action, but they are usually not readily evident until after the fact. If asked, most people will usually say that saving lives is worth almost any cost of taking action to do so, but that is not actually the case.

    For instance, if we wanted to save 25,000 lives a year of people who die in auto accidents, we could easily prevent almost all those deaths by reducing speed limits and strictly enforcing them down to say 25 mph or so. Yet we choose not to do so. Why? It appears that inconvenience of increased travel times and the direct costs of strict highway law enforcement are just not worth saving those lives. That sounds so harsh. Yet our culture makes significant risk and cost benefit decisions like this all the time. In the U.S. alone, more than 34,000 people died from influenza during the 2018-19 flu season. Yet there were no draconian measures imposed to reduce those deaths. Ask yourselves why.

    So far in the U.S., there have been 787 deaths attributed to COVID-19. I agree that saving as many live as possible is a desirable goal. I question why our society largely ignores the risk or cause of many other illnesses or activities that cause vast numbers of deaths. I would suggest that the answer lies in economic reasons.

    I fear getting sick from COVID-19. My wife is at very high risk of death if she gets it because she suffers from a chronic auto immune disorder and takes medication that severely compromises her immune system. I am going to try to protect her no matter what it takes fro me to do. But when all of this is over and behind us, I fear the economic costs of our response to this threat will be many times greater than the medical results. Many thousands may die. Tens of millions of people are going to lose their jobs and livelihood, although they will survive. I am not suggesting that we should not respond to the COVID-19 threat. But there is a reason that we as a culture/society don't react this way to the massive loss of life due to other reasons. Something to think about.
    1971 (age 15) MK was new!
    1974 off-site (Senior Trip)
    1982 off-site
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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by joonyer View Post
    Something to think about.
    Oh, definitely something to think about. My wife is a surgeon, and before COVID-19 was even a twinkle in our eye we have had this discussion. She has seen so many patients that come in with such complications, related to age/poor health, and they are clearly suffering and the quality of life is (and will be after) terrible. But the family wants *everything possible* done to keep them alive. They'd rather rack up tens of thousands of dollars in hospital bills to keep 85-year old, demented Grandma alive indefinitely with machine-assistance than just let her go peacefully. Is it worth it?

    Now, we're talking about hospitals having to decide who gets a ventilator and who doesn't. It's going to come down to survivability, which will include age, co-morbidity factors (health issues), etc.

    Religiously, all life has value. We'd like to see everyone be healed. Every life's value is immeasurable. But economically/socially, that is a terrible choice.
    2002 - 2017: 20+ visits (POR, BW, All Stars, VWL, CSR, BLT, BC, SSR, CB, Dolphin, OKW, offsite x4)
    DL - 1996, 2019
    Next up - Poly & AK Lodge Split trip, May 2020! 25th Anniversary!

  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcavalier View Post
    Oh, definitely something to think about. My wife is a surgeon, and before COVID-19 was even a twinkle in our eye we have had this discussion. She has seen so many patients that come in with such complications, related to age/poor health, and they are clearly suffering and the quality of life is (and will be after) terrible. But the family wants *everything possible* done to keep them alive. They'd rather rack up tens of thousands of dollars in hospital bills to keep 85-year old, demented Grandma alive indefinitely with machine-assistance than just let her go peacefully. Is it worth it?

    Now, we're talking about hospitals having to decide who gets a ventilator and who doesn't. It's going to come down to survivability, which will include age, co-morbidity factors (health issues), etc.

    Religiously, all life has value. We'd like to see everyone be healed. Every life's value is immeasurable. But economically/socially, that is a terrible choice.
    That’s why economics should never play a part in a very personal decision. My wife is also in healthcare and bothers her when someone wants everything done knowing the effects CPR will have on a 90 year old patient. But....If a person or their family wants to rack up the debit let them make that choice.

    In this case though it won’t be a choice for families to make due to lack of equipment and staffing unless we collectively make an effort to stop the spread which in turn has consequences on our economy. It is also not a choice to get this virus by most people (South Korean cults excluded). While I sympathize with people and their monthly bills...it is secondary to saving lives at this time.

    We’ve gone through tough times before (1918, WW1, Great Depression, WW2, Korean War, Vietnam, 1987 crash, tech bust, 9/11, and the Great Recession to name a few) and came through okay and will do so again....after we beat this virus.

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  9. #26
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    Actually, during the 1918 flu pandemic, some cities did enforce social distancing and shut downs. There's a great, recent article on it you can google. The cities that took action saw far fewer deaths. The cities that didn't had their hospitals overwhelmed.

    I think that's what people are often missing here, we're trying to make sure our hospitals don't get overwhelmed. That impacts everyone who needs them, not just those who are high risk for this virus. We can't have our health system in crisis right now. I could be wrong, but my impression is that there's not really the expectation to eliminate this virus before it spreads, just to slow it so that it can be managed and to give the opportunity to save more lives.

    I agree that economically shutting down is incredibly frightening and is it's own crisis. Hopefully one that we can manage as well. We live in a small town filled with small businesses owned by local people. I worry about them the most.

    And in terms of other things that take lives, we do take them seriously. We may not have 25mph speed limits everywhere, but we have safety regulations on cars and highways to mitigate. The flu kills people every year. That's why there's a vaccine. That's why every year, health professionals work very hard to convince people to get the vaccine. It's a false impression that other dangers aren't taken seriously, and definitely not any kind of reasoning for not trying to mitigate this danger.
    Susanne

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheVBs View Post
    Actually, during the 1918 flu pandemic, some cities did enforce social distancing and shut downs. There's a great, recent article on it you can google. The cities that took action saw far fewer deaths. The cities that didn't had their hospitals overwhelmed.

    I think that's what people are often missing here, we're trying to make sure our hospitals don't get overwhelmed. That impacts everyone who needs them, not just those who are high risk for this virus. We can't have our health system in crisis right now. I could be wrong, but my impression is that there's not really the expectation to eliminate this virus before it spreads, just to slow it so that it can be managed and to give the opportunity to save more lives.

    I agree that economically shutting down is incredibly frightening and is it's own crisis. Hopefully one that we can manage as well. We live in a small town filled with small businesses owned by local people. I worry about them the most.

    And in terms of other things that take lives, we do take them seriously. We may not have 25mph speed limits everywhere, but we have safety regulations on cars and highways to mitigate. The flu kills people every year. That's why there's a vaccine. That's why every year, health professionals work very hard to convince people to get the vaccine. It's a false impression that other dangers aren't taken seriously, and definitely not any kind of reasoning for not trying to mitigate this danger.
    I read the same article. It compared Philadelphia and Saint Louis and the difference in response. Philly allowed a parade to go on as planned and some short time later had a huge influx of individuals overwhelm the hospital system and had a much higher mortality rate overall than Saint Louis. It proved 100 years ago that this Social Distancing works.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park Hopper View Post
    Wow, it is refreshing to see an adult exchange/conversation on this topic. The other Disney board that I look at is incapable of this kind of exchange without blame, name-calling, and general melt-down!
    I really give a lot of kudos to the moderators on here. They keep it as a very pleasant place to visit. I don't look at any other discussion boards.
    I'll meet you at the Rainbow Bridge.

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by goofyskier View Post
    I read the same article. It compared Philadelphia and Saint Louis and the difference in response. Philly allowed a parade to go on as planned and some short time later had a huge influx of individuals overwhelm the hospital system and had a much higher mortality rate overall than Saint Louis. It proved 100 years ago that this Social Distancing works.
    NPR news did a piece on this the other morning. It was very interesting to hear. You can probably go to their website and listen to it if anyone is interested.

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  17. #30
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    Here's a minor case in point, somewhat relevant.

    Over night my adult daughter woke up in a frenzied panic because something crawled in her ear. I know this sounds seriously insignificant, but she was having a panic attack and wouldn't let anyone touch her. At any other time we may have rushed her to an ER (again, I realize this isn't a life threatening situation), hoping that at least a medical professional could talk her down. However, I had to remind her that NOW is not the time to go to the ER unless it's life or death because you don't want to risk exposure.

    My sympathies are completely split. On the one hand, I have a daughter out of a job because of this. She's extremely fortunate that she lives at home and can depend on us for now. But what about those that have no one and no where to turn?

    Look, I'm an introvert. I was a fan of social distancing, long before that term was trending. In fact, this is an introvert's utopia right now. Clearly it's not a struggle for me to do my part. Not everyone was made that way, certainly our economy wasn't meant to exist in that bubble. And since this is an unparalleled situation in our current society, we're going to make mistakes and people will pay the consequences.
    Genna
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    "Now approaching, Mickey's Star Traders"

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  19. #31
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    Good discussion here.
    Somebody told me yesterday; "We need to stick together by staying apart as much as possible".
    1971 (age 15) MK was new!
    1974 off-site (Senior Trip)
    1982 off-site
    1988 off-site
    May 2002 AS-Sports, with DW & kids
    May 2004 Pop Century
    Feb 2005 Wilderness Lodge
    Oct 2006 Pop Century
    Oct 2008 Camped at Fort Wilderness
    Feb 2010 Cruise on the Wonder
    Dec 2014 POFQ for Christmas!

  20. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicofdisney View Post
    Here's a minor case in point, somewhat relevant.

    Over night my adult daughter woke up in a frenzied panic because something crawled in her ear. I know this sounds seriously insignificant, but she was having a panic attack and wouldn't let anyone touch her. At any other time we may have rushed her to an ER (again, I realize this isn't a life threatening situation), hoping that at least a medical professional could talk her down. However, I had to remind her that NOW is not the time to go to the ER unless it's life or death because you don't want to risk exposure.

    My sympathies are completely split. On the one hand, I have a daughter out of a job because of this. She's extremely fortunate that she lives at home and can depend on us for now. But what about those that have no one and no where to turn?

    Look, I'm an introvert. I was a fan of social distancing, long before that term was trending. In fact, this is an introvert's utopia right now. Clearly it's not a struggle for me to do my part. Not everyone was made that way, certainly our economy wasn't meant to exist in that bubble. And since this is an unparalleled situation in our current society, we're going to make mistakes and people will pay the consequences.
    Okay, to be fair.. Yes something crawling in your ear is the stuff nightmares are made of. Some real Wrath of Khan thing there. May I ask, what was it?

    But on this note, I wouldn't burn the house down to prevent it from happening again... okay, I might consider it.
    ===================

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    2013 Dolphin
    2012 POR
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    1998 Dixie Landings
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  21. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinderelley View Post
    I really give a lot of kudos to the moderators on here. They keep it as a very pleasant place to visit. I don't look at any other discussion boards.
    I was totally spoiled to have found this forum first. When I did go out and look at other Disney discussion boards, I quickly backed away and stuck with Intercot.
    Susanne

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  23. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicofdisney View Post
    Here's a minor case in point, somewhat relevant.

    Over night my adult daughter woke up in a frenzied panic because something crawled in her ear. I know this sounds seriously insignificant, but she was having a panic attack and wouldn't let anyone touch her. At any other time we may have rushed her to an ER (again, I realize this isn't a life threatening situation), hoping that at least a medical professional could talk her down. However, I had to remind her that NOW is not the time to go to the ER unless it's life or death because you don't want to risk exposure.

    My sympathies are completely split. On the one hand, I have a daughter out of a job because of this. She's extremely fortunate that she lives at home and can depend on us for now. But what about those that have no one and no where to turn?

    Look, I'm an introvert. I was a fan of social distancing, long before that term was trending. In fact, this is an introvert's utopia right now. Clearly it's not a struggle for me to do my part. Not everyone was made that way, certainly our economy wasn't meant to exist in that bubble. And since this is an unparalleled situation in our current society, we're going to make mistakes and people will pay the consequences.
    Oh man!! I'm so sorry you guys went through this. Totally get the ER dilemma. What did you end up doing? Is she okay?
    Susanne

  24. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by texas211 View Post
    Okay, to be fair.. Yes something crawling in your ear is the stuff nightmares are made of. Some real Wrath of Khan thing there. May I ask, what was it?

    But on this note, I wouldn't burn the house down to prevent it from happening again... okay, I might consider it.
    If it was a spider, I'm grabbing the flamethrower!
    I'll meet you at the Rainbow Bridge.

  25. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheVBs View Post
    I was totally spoiled to have found this forum first. When I did go out and look at other Disney discussion boards, I quickly backed away and stuck with Intercot.
    Me too
    I'll meet you at the Rainbow Bridge.

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  27. #37
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    Guys, I have no idea what it was. First we put olive oil in the ear hoping to drawn the vermin. Once she stopped hearing and feeling any movement, we switched to peroxide, hoping to bubble it out. Nothing came out.

    I have an otoscope I bought when my kids were little because two of them were constantly getting ear infections. I probed as best I could and never saw anything. Anatomically speaking, there's an area in the ear I can't see with my scope, so maybe the carcass is stuck there.
    Genna
    Always Enjoy the
    ¸.•*¨)¸.•*¨)¸.•*¨Magic¸.•*¨)¸.•*¨)¸.•*¨

    "Now approaching, Mickey's Star Traders"

    If You Can Read This...
    ...Thank The Phoenicians!



  28. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinderelley View Post
    If it was a spider, I'm grabbing the flamethrower!
    Why it is good to have one.
    ===================

    2016 POR
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    2014 Disneyland-offsite
    2014 CBR
    2013 Dolphin
    2012 POR
    2012 WDW-Offsite
    2011 ASMusic, POR

    1998 Dixie Landings
    1990's, Dixie Landings, Misc Offsite

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  30. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicofdisney View Post
    Guys, I have no idea what it was. First we put olive oil in the ear hoping to drawn the vermin. Once she stopped hearing and feeling any movement, we switched to peroxide, hoping to bubble it out. Nothing came out.

    I have an otoscope I bought when my kids were little because two of them were constantly getting ear infections. I probed as best I could and never saw anything. Anatomically speaking, there's an area in the ear I can't see with my scope, so maybe the carcass is stuck there.
    Oh my goodness. How is she holding up? I would still be freaking out. Having something in my ear, dead or alive, would be totally unacceptable. Do you plan on trying to get her in to the doctor? Or waiting? And, honestly, I don't have any problem with bugs or spiders at all. I'm happy to scoop them up and pop them outside. But climbing into someone's ear is like violating a treaty.
    Susanne

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  32. #40
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    We're still trying home remedies. She's seems to be doing fine. She and her boyfriend worked on drainage again last night (that sounds so weird me talking about ear drainage ). I'm going to take another look with my otoscope just to see if I see anything. Honestly, there's no telling how big or little this bug was. I'm sure nearly any size bug is going to sound HUGE if it's flapping and flopping on top of your eardrum.

    I have to laugh at your treaty comment. That is too funny.
    Genna
    Always Enjoy the
    ¸.•*¨)¸.•*¨)¸.•*¨Magic¸.•*¨)¸.•*¨)¸.•*¨

    "Now approaching, Mickey's Star Traders"

    If You Can Read This...
    ...Thank The Phoenicians!



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