The Cuts... They Just Keep on Coming

[Stu29573]

But the stock won't continue to do well if they can't understand what they are doing wrong. I also wrote them about our last trip and the big takeaway they got from it was apparently that I needed a couple of extra fp+ choices for our next trip (which I pointed out repeatedly that might not be for five more years). Don't get me wrong; I appreciate the effort, but they kinda missed the point...which was THERE IS NOTHING TO GET ME TO COME BACK FOR FIVE STINKIN' YEARS. And I'm hearing that from a ton of other people. I can't see how the stock prices are going to do well if most people feel like I do...

[Park Hopper]

Cuts happen in every organization. For different reasons. I, myself, have survived at least 4-5 layoffs in my current position. Business is booming now & they are on a hiring spree!

Then gradually things go back to normal.
....

I think anyone that has been associated with private businesses since 2008 has been through the Lay-offs/hiring cycles. However, there is a big difference here in that Disney World is cutting back at a time when they are making massive profits and attendance is supposedly swelling. It would be far more understanding if profits had collapsed and no one was there. From most accounts Disney World is cutting back because of the Chinese Parks. So, some of those little touches that we have grown to love from Disney, like greeters welcoming you home when you get to your resort, painters who keep everything looking new and fresh, etc...are being dropped while Disney World profits and numbers are soaring.

It is just another sign of Disney becoming just another company.

[Park Hopper]

I am a broken record when it comes to FP+ - we like that the room key, credit card & yes - even the fast passes are on it. We don't like being limited to only three (especially in the MK) and the fact that we have to choose them so far in advance (which is necessary for the more popular attractions).

I was told last year, that we would be given "a guide" to help with this process - I haven't heard from any yet though.
......

I think you are making the mistake of merging the Magicbands with FP+. Don't feel too bad about it because Disney wants us to think of them together . However, the two should not have to be tied together. I have no issues with the Magic bands - I actually like them and think they are really convenient. In fact, other than those that have had issues with them not working properly, I think most people like them. However, my issues are with FP+, for many of the same reasons you list. Our opinions are actually pretty close on the subject.

I do think Disney tends to use the satisfaction with the Magicbands to make FP+look like people really like it. They could certainly go to a new system or back to the old one and integrate the Magicbands if they wanted - I would think that would be easy. But, then they would have to admit that FP+ was flawed.

[AndrewJackson]

Oh my, that is funny. That is...also kinda scammy.

I was just provided clarification to an earlier question. I don't find any of those rides to be "Tier 1". The fact that they even had to tier rides to get FP+ to work, is in of itself admitting defeat.

[GMRO]

By nature and by name - this is a discussion board. If someone disagrees with your opinion, are they a know it all? I just don't understand. You might be right, but so might the other side. Right now, cost cutting seems to be all that matters. And from what I can tell, park attendance isn't sliding, it's pretty much busy all year round.

That said, one can hope it's only temporary but there are many here that are counting the trends and expecting things to continue. I certainly hope that's not the case.

And another reason things are quiet - Facebook has pretty much ruined the internet and many discussion communities.

There, I said it....

OMG...now that is too funny! "Facebook Ruined The Internet" JY you need to make a shirt or magnet/vinyl of that statement.

#nofacepageforme
#notamemberandproudofit

[GMRO]

Reading this post from the Chairman was a somber moment for me. For over a year my wife has been coming to me with thing after thing (that I didn't know about) that she has read on Facebook (mostly).

Modern social media (Facebook/Twitter) has left me behind, and definitely created a vacuum as it has grown (and dominated) how information is shared. Facebook is useless for historical or long-term use of information, it's only good for the here-and-now news flash of the day, but it's what the World Wide Web seems to be all about anymore.

Meant to LIKE the post...clicked the wrong icon...sorry. I'm with ya!

[TheVBs]

If failures in other areas are causing these cut backs, I guess I can understand that. Although, ideally, I would prefer that they cut their losses in unsuccessful areas before they diminish the experience of a very successful area.

We are every other year people. Our last trip was in Aug. 2015. I think I've posted enough here to show that I'm not put off by criticisms, and have offered a few myself. However, every one of our trips has been great and left us wanting to go back. FP+ certainly caused us some stress at first, but it worked for us. Hold on to your seats here, because I'm about to say something outrageous.... it even made our last couple of trips BETTER because we were able to get on rides that we have always passed on because we simply were not interested in standing in a very, very long stand by line.

Now, think carefully before telling me that I'm so Disney-smitten that I'm simply blind to any short comings. It is a huge peeve of mine when someone has the audacity to tell another person whether they have or haven't gotten value for their money in terms of a vacation. This is not a measurable thing. It is purely in the eye of the person parting with the $.

Do these reported cuts concern me? They do. If or when our enjoyment of a WDW trip is impacted to the point where we don't feel it was money well spent, I promise you we have a very long wish list of destinations that we would decide to hit every year instead of every other year.

As pointed out though, attendance is at an all time high, all year round. We are WDW regulars, and we still want to plan trips there. Clearly, lots of other people, do to, whether they're repeat or first time visitors.

[WiltonJohn]

I'm with the VBs above in the general overview.

While there have been some glitches at times... all of our trips to Disney World have been great. Including the "evil" Fastpass+ and the MDE and the MagicBands. Can that system get better? Of course. Did we like the OLD Fastpass system.... not particularly. That system could have gotten better also.

Like the VBs, when it gets to the point that the value is not there for the $ for us... we'll stop going. And rather than vent over and over and over on forums, we'll just say "oh well" and move on. Bang for the buck is still there enough for us (and we project into the future) that we are in the process of buying a small DVC membership. If we have to because of loss of value (for us), ... we'll sell it later.

The world is changing... and Disney... like every company.... is dealing with that stuff. Sometimes we don't like the changes... but that does not mean those changes are not necessary (at least a the time). Are some changes potentially mistakes? Of course. Will any company (or CEO) bat 100% on decisions? Of course not. Disney ALWAYS has been a for-profit company working within the context of the place and times in which it existed. No "pixie dust" involved in that part.

At one time some liberal applications of "pixie dust" was the business strategy that worked to make the company tons of money. The environment in which they exist changes. The 'total pixie dust approach' is apparently no longer effective in making enough money. So something else has to be implemented. So maybe a little less pixie dust and a little more cost control is what is needed now.

Will that change? Almost 100% for sure. Will everyone like the change? Almost 100% for sure NOT. Will some folks not like it enough to stop going? 100% for sure. Will others discover that they like the way it is now? Also 100% for sure.

Park attendance is up. THAT says something about the "business model". As people who are "more engaged with Disney" than the average park goer, the folks here are not the average Disney Guest nor are the main market. Can Disney exist on mainly getting one or two time visitors? Who knows... but likely.

The basics of Strategic Planning deal with, among other things, identifying those things in the environment that the company exists within. Sometimes you have to deal with that reality... not the fantasy you'd like to have. Or the old past environment. And to deal with the current reality... you have to have the accurate big picture information. NO ONE outside the company's StratComm has all that stuff. 'Armchair quarterbacking' with selective public information is easy. Running a real company is not.

Even with the shareholder stuff I get as a stockholder... I really know nothing about the company.

We'll be back there in October. Pretty certain we'll have a good time.

And yes... I'm sure some folks here will just think the pixie dust is all over us, that we are blind, and the end of the World is nigh.

best,

.................john

[Stu29573]

I've never said people can't and shouldn't enjoy WDW, I simply said that can't happen for my family right now. The magic is gone for us. I'm really glad that for some, its not.

[j2k]

Like the VBs, when it gets to the point that the value is not there for the $ for us... we'll stop going. And rather than vent over and over and over on forums, we'll just say "oh well" and move on. Bang for the buck is still there enough for us (and we project into the future) that we are in the process of buying a small DVC membership. If we have to because of loss of value (for us), ... we'll sell it later.

The world is changing... and Disney... like every company.... is dealing with that stuff. Sometimes we don't like the changes... but that does not mean those changes are not necessary (at least a the time). Are some changes potentially mistakes? Of course. Will any company (or CEO) bat 100% on decisions? Of course not. Disney ALWAYS has been a for-profit company working within the context of the place and times in which it existed. No "pixie dust" involved in that part.

At one time some liberal applications of "pixie dust" was the business strategy that worked to make the company tons of money. The environment in which they exist changes. The 'total pixie dust approach' is apparently no longer effective in making enough money. So something else has to be implemented. So maybe a little less pixie dust and a little more cost control is what is needed now.

Will that change? Almost 100% for sure. Will everyone like the change? Almost 100% for sure NOT. Will some folks not like it enough to stop going? 100% for sure. Will others discover that they like the way it is now? Also 100% for sure.

Park attendance is up. THAT says something about the "business model". As people who are "more engaged with Disney" than the average park goer, the folks here are not the average Disney Guest nor are the main market. Can Disney exist on mainly getting one or two time visitors? Who knows... but likely.

The basics of Strategic Planning deal with, among other things, identifying those things in the environment that the company exists within. Sometimes you have to deal with that reality... not the fantasy you'd like to have. Or the old past environment. And to deal with the current reality... you have to have the accurate big picture information. NO ONE outside the company's StratComm has all that stuff. 'Armchair quarterbacking' with selective public information is easy. Running a real company is not.

Even with the shareholder stuff I get as a stockholder... I really know nothing about the company.

We'll be back there in October. Pretty certain we'll have a good time.

And yes... I'm sure some folks here will just think the pixie dust is all over us, that we are blind, and the end of the World is nigh.

I know I said I was done with this thread but after reading this I just had to comment. Thank you John. Thank you. You have summed up my thoughts on this in a much better way than I ever could. The perception of value for $ is different for each and every one of us.

[joonyer]

Imagine your family owned a restaurant. Your Grandparents opened it 50 years ago, and it became the best restaurant in the city. It served the best food available and the best customer service, and everyone knew it was better than all the rest. Only the very best ingredients were used and only the best people were hired to work there. Yes, meals there came at a premium price, but all of its customers thought it was well worth their money. The restaurant was full and sold out for every meal, with a line of people always waiting to get it every time the place was open. Profits were good. You took over when your grandparents retired and tried your best to keep things just the same. Some new menu items were changed through the years and the place was remodeled and refurbished, to keep it up to date. You even enlarged the dining room a couple of times to be able to seat even more guests. You kept most of the old loyal customers and added lots of new ones, too. Some big time competition came into town and opened new places nearby but your place still held its own. Food costs and the cost of labor continued to rise and so you decided to raise prices from time to time to keep your profits steady. Some people complained about the rise in prices, but for the most part you kept your customer base intact and continued to sell the place out for every meal.

Now comes the time where you want to retire. You children have grown up with the business, but they have all decided to become doctors and lawyers and such, and are not interested in running a restaurant. To retire, you decide to sell out a controlling interest in the restaurant, but keep the ownership interest in the name of the place, with a share of the profits. Life is good for you and your retirement is well deserved. The new owners start making changes that you wouldn't have made, but hey, they are still selling out the place and making lots of money for them and for you. Then they decide to save some money on the food costs and the quality of the food declines a little bit. They also save a lot of money by hiring labor with less experience and so customer service declines also. Many of the old loyal customers complain about the place not being as good as it used to be, but a lot of them still come anyway, if not as often as they used to. It's still very good, and the place has such good name recognition from the past, that many newcomers are constantly coming to try it out as the city continues to grow larger in population. Not as many diners become repeat customers like there used to be, but it is still full and basically sold out for every meal, every day. And although clearly the restaurant is no longer the class of the field as it once was in its heyday, profits are higher than ever. In the old days, there was never any negative feedback from customers; every diner thought it was the best dining experience in town. Nowadays, lots of people find things to complain about, especially compared to how fine the restaurant used to be, but still the place continues to sell out make more profits than ever. You have a growing concern about the decline in the restaurant's reputation, but the new owners are ecstatic that they are making money hand over fist. You argue that they are letting things slip, but there seems to be no end to the line of customers out front.

That's where WDW is right now. The "new management" isn't concerned with the comparisons of how it used to be. They look at the line of customers waiting to get in and say: "We must be doing something right", even though every decision looks like it is lowering quality and service compared to before. So long as they are selling all they can dish up (park passes and resort rooms), there is little financial incentive to be the best they can be. Just being good enough is good enough to maximize profits. Unlike the founders of the restaurant, pride in being the best of the best is not part of their compensation.

[Stu29573]

Imagine your family owned a restaurant. Your Grandparents opened it 50 years ago, and it became the best restaurant in the city. It served the best food available and the best customer service, and everyone knew it was better than all the rest. Only the very best ingredients were used and only the best people were hired to work there. Yes, meals there came at a premium price, but all of its customers thought it was well worth their money. The restaurant was full and sold out for every meal, with a line of people always waiting to get it every time the place was open. Profits were good. You took over when your grandparents retired and tried your best to keep things just the same. Some new menu items were changed through the years and the place was remodeled and refurbished, to keep it up to date. You even enlarged the dining room a couple of times to be able to seat even more guests. You kept most of the old loyal customers and added lots of new ones, too. Some big time competition came into town and opened new places nearby but your place still held its own. Food costs and the cost of labor continued to rise and so you decided to raise prices from time to time to keep your profits steady. Some people complained about the rise in prices, but for the most part you kept your customer base intact and continued to sell the place out for every meal.

Now comes the time where you want to retire. You children have grown up with the business, but they have all decided to become doctors and lawyers and such, and are not interested in running a restaurant. To retire, you decide to sell out a controlling interest in the restaurant, but keep the ownership interest in the name of the place, with a share of the profits. Life is good for you and your retirement is well deserved. The new owners start making changes that you wouldn't have made, but hey, they are still selling out the place and making lots of money for them and for you. Then they decide to save some money on the food costs and the quality of the food declines a little bit. They also save a lot of money by hiring labor with less experience and so customer service declines also. Many of the old loyal customers complain about the place not being as good as it used to be, but a lot of them still come anyway, if not as often as they used to. It's still very good, and the place has such good name recognition from the past, that many newcomers are constantly coming to try it out as the city continues to grow larger in population. more of the diners are not repeat customer like they used to be, but it is still full and basically sold out for every meal, every day. And although clearly the restaurant is no longer the class of the field as it once was in its heyday, profits are higher than ever. In the old days, there was never any negative feedback from customers; every diner thought it was the best dining experience in town. Nowadays, lots of people find things to complain about, especially compared to how fine the restaurant used to be, but still the place continues to sell out and its now making more profit than ever. You are growing concern about the decline in the restaurant's reputation, but the new owners are ecstatic that they are making money hand over fist. You argue that they are letting things slip, but there seems to be no end to the line of customers out front.

That's where WDW is right now. The "new management" isn't concerned with the comparisons of how it used to be. They look at the line of customers waiting to get in and say: "We must be doing something right", even though every decision looks like it is lowering quality and service compared to before. So long as they are selling all they can dish up (park passes and resort rooms), there is little financial incentive to be the best they can be. Just being good enough is enough to maximize profits. Unlike the founders of the restaurant, pride in being the best of the best is not part of their compensation.

Bingo. And for some "good enough is good enough." ...but not for us.

[Park Hopper]

FP+ certainly caused us some stress at first, but it worked for us. Hold on to your seats here, because I'm about to say something outrageous.... it even made our last couple of trips BETTER because we were able to get on rides that we have always passed on because we simply were not interested in standing in a very, very long stand by line.

As I have said in other threads, FP+ benefits those that do not do rope drop and do not value going on their favorite rides repeatedly. I say that because if you do rope drop, then you can get on any ride you want. Unfortunately, for us that do value getting on many rides, FP+ is a disaster. And, I think most would agree that the preplanning involved with FP+ is cumbersome.

[Park Hopper]

I'm with the VBs above in the general overview.

While there have been some glitches at times... all of our trips to Disney World have been great. Including the "evil" Fastpass+ and the MDE and the MagicBands. Can that system get better? Of course. Did we like the OLD Fastpass system.... not particularly. That system could have gotten better also.

Like the VBs, when it gets to the point that the value is not there for the $ for us... we'll stop going. And rather than vent over and over and over on forums, we'll just say "oh well" and move on.

I did not repost the whole quote, but I hope to address it all here. It is funny that you do not like being accused of being blinded by the pixie dust, yet you can generalize that those of us bringing up issues are saying that it is impossible to have a good time and that the world is coming to an end. It is perfectly logical for those of us that love Disney World and are upset with the direction that it is going to voice our opinions and concerns in a forum like this.

And, your post kind of agrees with what many of us are saying. Disney is changing to maximize profits. No one is arguing that. I think what the majority of us voicing our frustration are saying is that we think Disney World is becoming like most any other company, when, for us at least, they used to set themselves apart from the others.

I have been to six flags before and it was really crowded and I am sure the company was making a fortune. I had a great time. But, it was not Disney. You can certainly have a great time at Disney, just like at Six Flags, Universal, etc. Many of us just feel that what Disney offered over the others is erroding away.

For the record, we just booked a trip this Spring/Summer. Will we have a great time? I am sure we will. Will we come away with that extra special feeling that we used to get every visit? I hope so, but based upon recent experience and the way things seem to be going, I doubt it.

[TheVBs]

As I have said in other threads, FP+ benefits those that do not do rope drop and do not value going on their favorite rides repeatedly. I say that because if you do rope drop, then you can get on any ride you want. Unfortunately, for us that do value getting on many rides, FP+ is a disaster. And, I think most would agree that the preplanning involved with FP+ is cumbersome.

We rarely make rope drop, especially later in our trip when we've stayed up late several nights in a row. One of the things we enjoy on vacation is sleeping in sometimes, even at WDW. However, we do value getting on our favorite rides multiple times and have still done that every trip. Now, we couldn't do that with TSM or 7DMT, which we needed the FPs just to do even once. But, those don't rank on our favorites list. They're fun and we like to do them, but the rides we got on multiple times were Splash Mtn., BTMRR, RNRC, Space Mt. On our last trip when DH and I felt done with RNRC, the girls got back on 5 times in a row.

I'm absolutely not arguing that FP+ isn't a train wreck for your vacations. I'm not saying that because it works for us it should work for you. Bottom line for us is that we're still having a blast and creating awesome memories on every trip, so it's ridiculous for someone to try to convince us that we're not getting our money's worth. Just like no one should be telling you that your estimation of the value of your trips is wrong.

Joonyer, what I think your family restaurant analogy might be missing is the reality that there probably were complaints in the golden days. Perhaps though, because there wasn't the massive volume of guests that there are today, with the ability to complain on a platform that has a global reach, that possibly it's easy to look back and say that every guest was satisfied back then. I do still think it's extremely likely that quality control was far more tightly managed than it is today. But, having only been there once or twice as a kid in the early days, I don't really have an appropriate perspective on that. Not arguing with you, just a thought.

[Park Hopper]

We rarely make rope drop, especially later in our trip when we've stayed up late several nights in a row. One of the things we enjoy on vacation is sleeping in sometimes, even at WDW. However, we do value getting on our favorite rides multiple times and have still done that every trip. Now, we couldn't do that with TSM or 7DMT, which we needed the FPs just to do even once. But, those don't rank on our favorites list. They're fun and we like to do them, but the rides we got on multiple times were Splash Mtn., BTMRR, RNRC, Space Mt. On our last trip when DH and I felt done with RNRC, the girls got back on 5 times in a row.

All of the rides you mention except for RNRC are in MK, and I think most would agree that FP+ is not as much of a problem in MK where there are lots of options. You must have really hit a good time/day for RNRC. In the past, we have been able to do similar with that ride by catching it at the right time in a low park attendance day by using the single rider line, but I cannot imagine getting to do that now, with the limited options at DS. But for those with Epcot as their favorite park, FP+ is a problem. I do not see how anyone can defend the tiered system there, forcing you to wait through two FP+ time slots for rides that ordinarily would not need a FP before trying (and failing) to get another for one of the big 2 rides. Last time I went, I think DS also has that tiered system. If they got rid of the tiered system and the 60 days in advance thing, it would certainly make FP+ more tolerable. I agree that arguing the point anymore is pointless. However, I think we can all agree that had Disney not let things slide as much (think Epcot and DS) and had more options available, then we probably would not be having this discussion. If they had multiple big ride options at Epcot and DS, and even AK, then FP+ may work well and you would not have to worry as much about not getting your favorite FP+ 60 days in advance.

Disney is building now which will help, but it has taken a really long time to react to their competition, rather than leading the way by building new and great. And, with them having to cut from losses elsewhere, I am worried that the new rides, whenever they get done, will be reduced in scale - I hope not, but I think that is what other businesses would do and I have come to expect Disney to act like just another business.

[Tekneek]

Disney is building now which will help, but it has taken a really long time to react to their competition, rather than leading the way by building new and great.

They have been riding on the reputation built by others and so far it is working out well financially for them and the company. Presumably it will not last forever.

[Park Hopper]

All of the rides you mention except for RNRC are in MK, and I think most would agree that FP+ is not as much of a problem in MK where there are lots of options.

I know that it is kind of lame to quote myself, but I should mention that one of my most negative experience with FP+ was actually from MK. Last year, after it looked like we would not be able to go on our annual January trip due to school schedules, we decided at the last minute (still about 30 days out) to surprise the kids with a shorter trip to Disney World right after New Year's Day (2015). Unlike the usual week, we had about 5.5 days. We had never been on Mine Train so that was a priority for us. Of course, there was no FP+ availability for Mine Train for any of the days or times that we were going to be there. So, to avoid the really long lines (park attendance was dying down from the holidays, but it was still probably at average levels), we got to Mine Train at Rope Drop. Because we did not run over people and were not the only ones who were doing this, by the time we got out of the ride (which I thought was kind of underwhelming to be honest, except the scene at the end is really cool), the advantage of Rope Drop was lost.

Now, had the old system been in place, we would have picked up a FP for Mine Train and still been able to get on at least 3 rides that typically have long lines like SM, Peter Pan, etc. taking full advantage of Rope Drop. After Mine Train, we still would have been able to get FP for several others we like throughout the day (more than 3).

I realize that this is just one family's experience, but I think for everyone that says that they were able to still ride their favorite 5 times straight, there are probably stories like this. And, I am guessing that the opportunity to ride something 5 times straight could have happened even easier with the old FP system - the new FP+ system did nothing to help create that opportunity. In fact, my argument centers more around the ability to ride Test Track or something like that 3 times in a given day without long lines. However, I said I would stop arguing about that and I apologize for bringing it back up.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions - no, this did not ruin our trip and, no, it is not a big deal compared to that fact that we were on vacation at Disney. We still had a great time, etc... But it is just an example of why I personally do not like the new system. I also freely admit that we are really active in the parks, getting to rope drop and covering a lot of ground in the Parks (without running over others). Not everyone tours that way. And, I can understand that the new system has some appeal for those with more relaxed touring styles that like to have everything planned well in advance.

[j2k]

It is funny that you do not like being accused of being blinded by the pixie dust, yet you can generalize that those of us bringing up issues are saying that it is impossible to have a good time and that the world is coming to an end. It is perfectly logical for those of us that love Disney World and are upset with the direction that it is going to voice our opinions and concerns in a forum like this.

And, your post kind of agrees with what many of us are saying. Disney is changing to maximize profits. No one is arguing that. I think what the majority of us voicing our frustration are saying is that we think Disney World is becoming like most any other company, when, for us at least, they used to set themselves apart from the others.

In reading all these posts I've come to better understand your frustrations. Your family's experience at WDW is changing. You do not feel like you're getting the most bang for your buck. Because of that every additional cut or change is another tick on the list of things that frustrate you. And it just continues to build your frustrations as these things happen. That is completely understandable. Each family is different though. While you feel these changes take out the extra magic you used to feel there are others who do not feel the same way.

Every day there are people who experience WDW for the first time. To them that's what they know. They don't know the magic of opening day. Or the magic throughout the years. They know the magic of their first visit and if it is magical enough they will return and might become occasional or regular visitors. But still their reference point is their first visit and everything after that. So that might be pre-FP, pre-magic bands, pre-FP+ or that might be the current environment of WDW. These people are part of the discussion as well. Not because they are "blinded" or "defenders" but because they still feel like there is value for them.

I'm reserving judgement on the future of WDW. Only time will tell what these changes will lead to. It is a mess to deal with while they are building new areas (Avatar, Star Wars, Toy Story). Once those areas open, especially Star Wars, attendance will likely increase significantly. How this will play out is unknown.

WDW cannot accommodate an unlimited number of guests each day. Something has to give to try to balance it out. Cut hours, limit attractions, and increase prices are all strategies to balance it out. That's economics that any business has to apply... demand vs. supply. There will be some who don't like it, some who do, and some who are indifferent.

And just for the record, my family and I are not Star Wars fans so we are indifferent to the addition of that area.

[WiltonJohn]

WDW cannot accommodate an unlimited number of guests each day. Something has to give to try to balance it out. Cut hours, limit attractions, and increase prices are all strategies to balance it out. That's economics that any business has to apply... demand vs. supply. There will be some who don't like it, some who do, and some who are indifferent.

+1