x pass?

[Mousemates]

On one site I used to read daily, a thread was started about some of the neglect on the WDW property... The person had an inside knowledge of how things worked in WDW, especially inside the TDO building... He even knew some of the management and had friends on the inside... Well, the thread was civil.. People expressed their displeasure with the condition WDW has become under Meg's stewardship... He posted pictures, as did other members... Then, the drowning out of voices started... New members suddenly appeared and began bashing the people who were posting about the sad state of affairs... They began name calling, they trolled for lack of a better word... Baited arguments... Then other members got into it, members who have been on the site for years but had 1 or 2 posts... They started attacking the dissenters.. The site owner eventually shut the thread down due to the bickering... The thread was going good for a few months.. Where did these new people come from and why??? Why all of a sudden??? These are questions you need to ask yourself...

interesting...there are a couple of nefarious possibilities that come to my "conspiracy theory habituated mind" here...not sure which one you are actually suggesting though.

The first would be that "Disney site monitors" were somehow directly involved in turning the thread hostile so that the site owner would close down the thread.

The second would be that the site owners themselves "felt pressure" to not let the negativity go on too long...(maybe even creating users and posts that break their rules so they can shut it down.).

If that is potentially the case, such pressure might not be even be direct (from disney) , seeing as how most of the sites having disney advertising banners... the simple imagined threat of a loss of that advertising revenue (due to their site beocming too critical) might provide strong motivation to find a way to not let the criticism linger.

Are these the kinds of things you are hinting at here...or am I (as happens from time to time) out in left field concerning my reading of a post?

[Jared]

It's not a conspiracy, exactly, but Disney's crack social media team absolutely monitors certain sites and clandestinely attempts to silence the growing dissent in the fan community. There have been a couple "Spirited" threads across the Internet mysteriously shut down under rather bizarre circumstances for this reason. Disney fan sites have a bizarrely symbiotic relationship with the company, evidenced by the Disney banner ads adorning supposedly impartial sites.

I know all about your site but did not know the circumstances that led to its failure. It's a real shame.

Look, this site never had threads like these until recently. The tide is changing, even if it takes time.

[ronandjulie]

If you want WDW to change, it's easy. Stop going. Go elswehere. WDW will not change if they don't have to.

[Ian]

If you want WDW to change, it's easy. Stop going. Go elswehere. WDW will not change if they don't have to.

Sadly, this is almost definitely the case.

We can grumble, write letters, send emails, complain to Guest Relations, and all that, but at the end of the day it's a heckuva lot cheaper for TDO to send you away with a few free Fastpasses than it is for them to do things right.

As someone mentioned above, about the only hope there is is if some Disneyland-style turnaround can happen, but because of the dramatic differences in the guest base between the two resorts I don't really see that happening.

[BrerGnat]

As someone mentioned above, about the only hope there is is if some Disneyland-style turnaround can happen, but because of the dramatic differences in the guest base between the two resorts I don't really see that happening.

And that won't ever happen at WDW.

At Disneyland, when the fans complain, Disney listens. They have to. The locals and AP holders are their bread and butter. There are over a million AP holders and growing at a rapid pace. They have no choice but to do stuff to make them happy. It's a different culture at Disneyland...a culture that remembers its roots.

If there was a mass exodus of AP holders from Disneyland who suddenly stopped going and decided not to renew, Disney would be in HUGE trouble, as much as they like to "complain" that there are too many AP holders as is.

[Jared]

As someone mentioned above, about the only hope there is is if some Disneyland-style turnaround can happen, but because of the dramatic differences in the guest base between the two resorts I don't really see that happening.

Ian, it's time to move past this rationale. It's an excuse that has been spewed on the Internet for so long that it has simply been accepted as fact. The idea that Walt Disney World guests are mostly tourists and Disneyland guests are mostly locals is a myth. It may be based in fact -- it may even have been true at one point -- but don't all myths stem from at least a degree of truth? Disney knows very well that this idea of Disneyland being the "locals" park is a convenient excuse to justify inaction in Florida. It wouldn't at all surprise me if Disney's social media team is the origin of this story.

Look, I'm not saying that Disneyland isn't overrun with pass-holders. I'm not saying that Disneyland doesn't have a larger percentage of "locals" in the park on a daily basis than Disney World. But unless we're counting guests coming from Northern California, Nevada, Arizona and Colorado as "locals," the facts don't back up the narrative.

Remember that Southern California is a considerably better vacation spot than Central Florida. Whereas people spend a week at Walt Disney World, most guests stop at Disneyland for a day or two as part of a larger California vacation. This doesn't mean their locals -- it means they're smart enough to enjoy everything the region has to offer. Not to mention the influx of Asian and Australian tourists who rarely visit Walt Disney World because of the distance involved.

There are tons of dedicated, obsessive fans of the Florida resort. That's why sites like this one exist. There are infinitely more active discussion forums devoted to Walt Disney World than to Disneyland. There are also a zillion vacation club owners who have devoted a ridiculous sum of money to the Florida parks.

I don't buy this guest distribution theory for a second. But as long as most Disney fans accept it, I agree with Ian and Natalie that nothing will change.

[DizneyFreak2002]

interesting...there are a couple of nefarious possibilities that come to my "conspiracy theory habituated mind" here...not sure which one you are actually suggesting though.

The first would be that "Disney site monitors" were somehow directly involved in turning the thread hostile so that the site owner would close down the thread.

The second would be that the site owners themselves "felt pressure" to not let the negativity go on too long...(maybe even creating users and posts that break their rules so they can shut it down.).

If that is potentially the case, such pressure might not be even be direct (from disney) , seeing as how most of the sites having disney advertising banners... the simple imagined threat of a loss of that advertising revenue (due to their site beocming too critical) might provide strong motivation to find a way to not let the criticism linger.

Are these the kinds of things you are hinting at here...or am I (as happens from time to time) out in left field concerning my reading of a post?

I'm sure a lot fo the advertising banners comes from Google ads or any of the other ad services... When the thread is sponsored, that is a different story... Disney doesn't sponsor threads as a way to "remain neutral..."

Disney monitors sites, trust me on that... Again, just something to ponder... When Universal made some announcements in January, and Disney's one more Disney day announcement fell flat, the community basically laughed at Disney and praised Universal... What happened??? Post after post, thread after thread, about all things positive at Disney... Posts bashing Universal... Coincidence???

I do truly believe a few site owners and podcasters prefer a Disney lifestyle over a realistic one.. So, they will do anything they can to promote Disney no matter what.. Again, I won't name names but I always said there is a certain podcaster who would praise Disney even if Disney nuked half of the United States and all of Europe... Try putting a negative comment during his newscast chats, and see how fast you are booted or ignored or even mocked by his minions... It is rather sad...

What I am trying to say is, Disney DOES plant people on websites as a way to shut up the dissenters... Disney's social media team is a propaganda machine... Try taking them on... They will find a way to shout you down and shut you up...

[DizneyFreak2002]

It's not a conspiracy, exactly, but Disney's crack social media team absolutely monitors certain sites and clandestinely attempts to silence the growing dissent in the fan community. There have been a couple "Spirited" threads across the Internet mysteriously shut down under rather bizarre circumstances for this reason. Disney fan sites have a bizarrely symbiotic relationship with the company, evidenced by the Disney banner ads adorning supposedly impartial sites.

I know all about your site but did not know the circumstances that led to its failure. It's a real shame.

Look, this site never had threads like these until recently. The tide is changing, even if it takes time.

Those Spirited posts are on sites that had a deep connection to Disney in one way or another... Isn't a coincidence those posts disappeared... it is either:
1) Disney forcing the site owner to shut him up or 2) site owner afraid Disney won't give him/her freebies anymore or 3) site owner afraid he won't be privy to inside information therefore cannot "break" Disney news...

The negative threads are growing... There is a great reason for that... People (fans mostly) are noticing the decline... Whether it is the sad state of Splash Mountain,Soarin's movie/screen being filthy causing bad show, a string of lights out on the roof of the Grand Floridian for months, now strings of lights out at the entrance of Magic Kingdom, or the enforcement of the fast pass return time (not a bad thing in my opinion) to paying for xPass or what ever the final version is called, people are waking up... I agree with Ian, sooner or later this is going to bite TDO in the back side... Will ti drop Disney from number 1 in Orlando??? No.. but I am willing to wager Universal (and SeaWorld in a smaller way) will continue to eat into Disney's attendance numbers (outside of MK) and will continue to put Disney to shame in the attractions department while TDO's decisions revolve around making the most money by offering the least...

[DizneyFreak2002]

Sadly, this is almost definitely the case.

We can grumble, write letters, send emails, complain to Guest Relations, and all that, but at the end of the day it's a heckuva lot cheaper for TDO to send you away with a few free Fastpasses than it is for them to do things right.

As someone mentioned above, about the only hope there is is if some Disneyland-style turnaround can happen, but because of the dramatic differences in the guest base between the two resorts I don't really see that happening.

While I mostly agree with you that the only way to get change in WDW is to not spend money there, I also believe fans can have an impact on the decisions... TDO needs to be embarrassed on a national level though... That is where the problem lies... They don't care if Jason Garcia writes a negative article in the Orlando Sentinel... Becuase the OS will write 10 positive ones to Jason's one negative... However, have you seen what happened to Habit Heroes??? In Innoventions, Habit Heroes tried to promote healthy eating habits... The villains?? Hugely obese and fat humans... Several blogs, well read ones, took Disney to task over their portrayal of morbidly obese people being villains... Well, Habit Heroes has now been closed for a reworking...

If certain things can get a national, or better, world wide attention, TDO would change their decisions... But getting this attention is difficult at best... And even then, the social media hounds come out to try to get attention away from the negative press...

[DizneyFreak2002]

And that won't ever happen at WDW.

At Disneyland, when the fans complain, Disney listens. They have to. The locals and AP holders are their bread and butter. There are over a million AP holders and growing at a rapid pace. They have no choice but to do stuff to make them happy. It's a different culture at Disneyland...a culture that remembers its roots.

If there was a mass exodus of AP holders from Disneyland who suddenly stopped going and decided not to renew, Disney would be in HUGE trouble, as much as they like to "complain" that there are too many AP holders as is.

Thank Al Lutz for getting the change started in Disneyland... He has an outlet and very well placed inside contacts, and he was able to rally the troops...

Also, from other insiders, the ratio of AP/locals to foreigner/non-local visitors to Disneyland has shrunk... Disney loves to tout a 70% local to 30% non-local attendance split.. However, others are saying that is no longer the case, it is now much closer to 50/50, maybe even tipping to the non-locals now... Disney will never release their true attendance numbers so they can continue to skewer the numbers all they want... I will never believe Disney when they try to provide the "facts" because they don't allow you to see their actual numbers...

[Jared]

I write for a national publication. It would take a gaffe of proportions to get these problems written about in the mainstream media. Disney is too small of a niche for most of these outlets to justify the story. Even the Aulani debacle, which was unbelievably embarrassing for the company, didn't make our newspaper.

But I do agree with one thing: If a story appeared in The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal criticizing Disco Yeti, I guarantee something would change. Disney would have to respond.

[Jared]

Also, from other insiders, the ratio of AP/locals to foreigner/non-local visitors to Disneyland has shrunk... Disney loves to tout a 70% local to 30% non-local attendance split.. However, others are saying that is no longer the case, it is now much closer to 50/50, maybe even tipping to the non-locals now... Disney will never release their true attendance numbers so they can continue to skewer the numbers all they want... I will never believe Disney when they try to provide the "facts" because they don't allow you to see their actual numbers...

Bingo. The 70-30 breakdown is a complete myth. I would wager that the scale has titled in favor of non-locals. At the very least, it's around 50-50.

But look at what this says about how Disney is able to distort the truth and push their message. There are extremely reputable people on sites like this one who are convinced that the Disneyland guest distribution story is true and they continue to post the narrative as fact. That's some pretty impressive spin right there.

[BrerGnat]

Bingo. The 70-30 breakdown is a complete myth. I would wager that the scale has titled in favor of non-locals. At the very least, it's around 50-50.

But look at what this says about how Disney is able to distort the truth and push their message. There are extremely reputable people on sites like this one who are convinced that the Disneyland guest distribution story is true and they continue to post the narrative as fact. That's some pretty impressive spin right there.

I'm sorry, but where do you get your information from? Disney does not release numbers indicating how many AP holders it has, and how many visitors are local vs. not. And what is local anyway? I'd say local is anywhere within driving distance, and that opens up a HUGE area.

I lived down there from 2001 to 2011. I was a local and an AP holder for that entire time, and I lived in Orange County very close to DLR for 7 of those years. I can tell you with MUCH certainty that a very large percentage of visitors on any given day are AP holders of one kind or another. Doesn't matter if they live locally or not. Lots of residents of Northern CA, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, and Arizona are AP holders too, and they come a few times a year. All you have to do is look at the Blockout days calendar, and plan a visit on a day when EVERY AP besides the Premium is blocked out. The parks are EMPTY. I've seen it firsthand too many times to discount how much of an effect the AP holders have on the crowd levels at the resort.

The advent of the "Southern CA Select" Annual pass made it affordable for ANYONE living in the area to be a passholder. This is why the numbers have increased so much in recent years. Much of the So. Cal population is not wealthy, and Disneyland was out of reach for most, but this pass made it possible for a HUGE number of people to suddenly become AP holders.

Now, Disney has a problem. They have too many passholders. It's not a "myth". It's a fact. Look at the parking situation. They are working on ways to pare it down a bit, since DLR has FINALLY become what they wanted it to be 10 years ago...a multi day vacation destination. They are raising the prices considerably every year. They are tinkering with changing the way APs work, to making them a "monthly membership fee" that is open ended.

Bottom line in all this is that they needed to boost attendance a long time ago. They improved the resort as a whole, and it worked. Now, they have more "locals" to contend with than they'd like (because, after all, those "locals" never spend any money in the parks, according to Disney). They want the locals out...but they are precisely what keeps DLR going, so it's a relationship that Disney needs to maintain. In the slow time, the locals are there daily to pick up the slack.

If you tick off the locals at Disneyland, you have a problem. And, Disney knows it. I guarantee you'd not have seen the boost in AP numbers over the past decade if Disney allowed the DLR to remain in the state it was in in 2001.

[ronandjulie]

It's funny that many people say that DLR is overrun with AP while here in Central Florida, we are bombarded with commercials enticing us locals to come to WDW and even to buy AP. If you don't think that WDW watches it competitors closely, you're mistaken. Universal, Sea World and Busch Gardens have been offering a monthly payment plan to purchase AP forever, while WDW has just recently allowed that. There will always be the multitude of tourists that come to WDW, that's a given, but if the locals decide to spend their money elsewhere, it might make a difference. Besides that, the AP for the other parks is way, way cheaper than WDW soooo going to Universal and buying my way to the front every line is not that expensive. if you were buying plane tickets, rooms, food, etc. that would cost a small fortune, but for us that live within weekend distance, you cannot beat going to a theme park and not waiting in any lines. Talk about magical. Universal even offers an AP with ExpressPass built right in. I really love WDW but we find ourselves going to Universal and Busch Gardens more and more every year and less to WDW. It's sad. Broken rides, poor maintenance, long lines, Gigantic South American tour groups everywhere, etc. We are seriously thinking about not getting any passes next year for WDW. 2013 might be the first year snce 1970 that I don't go to a Disney park. We'll see.

[Terra]

It's funny that many people say that DLR is overrun with AP while here in Central Florida, we are bombarded with commercials enticing us locals to come to WDW and even to buy AP. If you don't think that WDW watches it competitors closely, you're mistaken. Universal, Sea World and Busch Gardens have been offering a monthly payment plan to purchase AP forever, while WDW has just recently allowed that. There will always be the multitude of tourists that come to WDW, that's a given, but if the locals decide to spend their money elsewhere, it might make a difference. Besides that, the AP for the other parks is way, way cheaper than WDW soooo going to Universal and buying my way to the front every line is not that expensive. if you were buying plane tickets, rooms, food, etc. that would cost a small fortune, but for us that live within weekend distance, you cannot beat going to a theme park and not waiting in any lines. Talk about magical. Universal even offers an AP with ExpressPass built right in. I really love WDW but we find ourselves going to Universal and Busch Gardens more and more every year and less to WDW. It's sad. Broken rides, poor maintenance, long lines, Gigantic South American tour groups everywhere, etc. We are seriously thinking about not getting any passes next year for WDW. 2013 might be the first year snce 1970 that I don't go to a Disney park. We'll see.

Hey neighbor! I'm in Lake Wales!

We are seasonal pass holders here and it does well for us. I do agree about some of the long lines. I will say though I do love WDW world the best and have only been to other Florida themeparks a handful of times and just don't like them [just a personal preference].

But I personally do like the X Pass idea. But I'm game with whatever WDW does. I can see the pros and cons of it though as well. But it's not enough of an issue to get me riled up for sure. But that's the beauty of us living in Florida. I can certainly see for people who live out of state and plan vacations. That would be a bit much.

[DizneyFreak2002]

I'm sorry, but where do you get your information from? Disney does not release numbers indicating how many AP holders it has, and how many visitors are local vs. not. And what is local anyway? I'd say local is anywhere within driving distance, and that opens up a HUGE area.

I lived down there from 2001 to 2011. I was a local and an AP holder for that entire time, and I lived in Orange County very close to DLR for 7 of those years. I can tell you with MUCH certainty that a very large percentage of visitors on any given day are AP holders of one kind or another. Doesn't matter if they live locally or not. Lots of residents of Northern CA, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, and Arizona are AP holders too, and they come a few times a year. All you have to do is look at the Blockout days calendar, and plan a visit on a day when EVERY AP besides the Premium is blocked out. The parks are EMPTY. I've seen it firsthand too many times to discount how much of an effect the AP holders have on the crowd levels at the resort.

The advent of the "Southern CA Select" Annual pass made it affordable for ANYONE living in the area to be a passholder. This is why the numbers have increased so much in recent years. Much of the So. Cal population is not wealthy, and Disneyland was out of reach for most, but this pass made it possible for a HUGE number of people to suddenly become AP holders.

Now, Disney has a problem. They have too many passholders. It's not a "myth". It's a fact. Look at the parking situation. They are working on ways to pare it down a bit, since DLR has FINALLY become what they wanted it to be 10 years ago...a multi day vacation destination. They are raising the prices considerably every year. They are tinkering with changing the way APs work, to making them a "monthly membership fee" that is open ended.

Bottom line in all this is that they needed to boost attendance a long time ago. They improved the resort as a whole, and it worked. Now, they have more "locals" to contend with than they'd like (because, after all, those "locals" never spend any money in the parks, according to Disney). They want the locals out...but they are precisely what keeps DLR going, so it's a relationship that Disney needs to maintain. In the slow time, the locals are there daily to pick up the slack.

If you tick off the locals at Disneyland, you have a problem. And, Disney knows it. I guarantee you'd not have seen the boost in AP numbers over the past decade if Disney allowed the DLR to remain in the state it was in in 2001.

The information comes from people who have real contacts inside the company who give them real numbers... Disney's propaganda machine spews false figures for their own marketing purposes... Fact is the 70-30 split is a lie and is more like 50-50 now... They skewer things to fit their agendas... And people buy it...

Anything within driving distance is local??? Then I guess I am local to Disneyland too since I can technically drive to California from NJ... Or maybe I am a central Florida local since I can drive to WDW in 15 hours... There has to be a cut off... And the cut off used to be southern California.. Now Disney expands local to half the U.S.... Ask youref why??? So they can continue to skewer their numbers for their agendas... LIES, LIES, LIES... and Disney spews tons of lies... Truth is, the local/tourist split is now closer to 50/50...

[Jared]

Quoted for truth. The numbers come from extremely reputable individuals with a proven track record of providing accurate and reliable information. You can choose to keep believing whatever you want, but you're playing exactly into the Disney marketing team's goals. If the truth is suppressed, Disney can continue scrimping the way it has for years.

To be clear, I don't for a second begrudge Disney. A company certainly has the right to run its business however it deems appropriate. I am a Walt Disney World annual pass-holder and continue to visit the parks regularly. That should tell you that the decline in quality has not yet reached the so-called tipping point where Disney loses my dollars. But I recognize that at this rate, that day will come sooner than later. I wonder if Disney itself realizes that threshold.

The information comes from people who have real contacts inside the company who give them real numbers... Disney's propaganda machine spews false figures for their own marketing purposes... Fact is the 70-30 split is a lie and is more like 50-50 now... They skewer things to fit their agendas... And people buy it...

Anything within driving distance is local??? Then I guess I am local to Disneyland too since I can technically drive to California from NJ... Or maybe I am a central Florida local since I can drive to WDW in 15 hours... There has to be a cut off... And the cut off used to be southern California.. Now Disney expands local to half the U.S.... Ask youref why??? So they can continue to skewer their numbers for their agendas... LIES, LIES, LIES... and Disney spews tons of lies... Truth is, the local/tourist split is now closer to 50/50...

[DizneyFreak2002]

Now Jim Hill reports xPass will be rolled out in a matter of weeks, not months like he originally reported... Ohh, it will be open to everyone but you will be limited with how many ride reservations you can book...

[Jared]

Now Jim Hill reports xPass will be rolled out in a matter of weeks, not months like he originally reported... Ohh, it will be open to everyone but you will be limited with how many ride reservations you can book...

I still say that X-Pass isn't this devilish invention as it has been portrayed in the fan community. I don't know how much I'll use it, but I actually think a lot of people will love the system.