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View Poll Results: Worst Franchise Ever?

Voters
25. You may not vote on this poll
  • Cleveland Browns NFL

    4 16.00%
  • Los Angeles Clippers NBA

    6 24.00%
  • Detroit Lions NFL

    13 52.00%
  • Milawaukee Brewers MLB

    0 0%
  • Pheonix Cardinals NFL

    0 0%
  • Atlanta Hawks NBA

    2 8.00%
  • Golden State Warriors NBA

    0 0%
  • Memphis Grizzlies NBA

    0 0%
  • Chicago Blackhawks NHL

    0 0%
  • Kansas City Royals MLB

    0 0%
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Results 41 to 60 of 62
  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
    The Browns franchise as I look at it for the sake of the poll is the current franchise.

    The old Browns are in fact the Ravens. Just like the old Colts are the new Colts, the St.Louis Rams are the L.A. Rams, and the Oilers are the Titans. The Browns were an expansion team, and in their brief stay in football they have proceeded to be outdone by just about every franchise in the NFL including the recent expansion brothers.

    If we were talking Browns of old they would not be on this list.
    Thanks for the clarification of the context of the poll, lawler. I'll stand by my original vote then.
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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
    Look the Jets franchise is not a bad franchise. They are among the most loyal fans in the league, thier stability, fan support (they are always in the top ten in attendance), overcomes allot of their miscues on the field.
    So losing on a consistent basis doesn't count as long as your fans are loyal?

    Then you need to remove Cleveland from the list. Maybe the last two years things have changed, but according to the bizjournals.com, as of 2006 the Browns are ranked #1 in fan loyalty since re-entering the league. They have sold out more home games than any other team in the NFL.

    Really you are looking through Dolphins colored glasses. BTW the Jets outdrew the Phins by 10,000 fans last year.
    C'mon bro, you're really reaching here.

    That's 1,125 more a game. Considering the Jets can draw from NY, NJ, and CT while the Dolphins are strictly South Florida based, that's not bad at all. You can't compare the markets.

    The Dolphins' market population is 6,011,633.
    The Jets' market population is 22,913,496.

    And they only draw 1,125 more a game? That's embarrassing if you ask me.

    Also, the Giants, playing in the same stadium with the same market population, consistently draw 24,000 or more than they Jets each year.

  4. #43
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    Pagan I truly bow before your internet debating skill.

    I will not relent, how can the Browns have had more sellouts than any NFL team? The Redskins have sold out every home game since 1968.

    Plus

    Speaking of reaching you posted...... "That's 1,125 more a game. Considering the Jets can draw from NY, NJ, and CT while the Dolphins are strictly South Florida based, that's not bad at all. You can't compare the markets."

    Interesting thoughts but inaccuarate. While the numbers maybe right the Dolphins do not share their market with any other team. Perahps their are some Bucs fans, but I doubt it. In fact its 4 hours to the closest NFL team, added to that the Bucs and Jags are relativley younger franchises. Miami had a head start enough to claim most of Florida. Yet the Jets however share their market with The Bills, Patriots, Giants, and Eagles all of whom are down the road a little ways. To say the Jets own CT. is a joke. In fact the Ravens and the Redskins are closer to the Jets than the nearest NFL team is to the Phins.

    Besides attendance is the only thing the Browns having going for them. I refuse to give in to your Jet abuse. Although I will commit them to 13th on my list, after more research.
    Loads of trips since 1974...

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
    While the numbers maybe right the Dolphins do not share their market with any other team.
    Yea, but they share it with all the retired Jets and Giants fans that moved down there.

    I'm not saying it's the same about football, but I know when the Mets play the Marlins, It's like a Mets home game. Of course, they usually lose just like at home....
    Jeff

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
    Pagan I truly bow before your internet debating skill.
    A debate is only as good as both parties make it.

    I will not relent, how can the Browns have had more sellouts than any NFL team? The Redskins have sold out every home game since 1968.
    Look it up bro...they are #1.

    Speaking of reaching you posted...... "That's 1,125 more a game. Considering the Jets can draw from NY, NJ, and CT while the Dolphins are strictly South Florida based, that's not bad at all. You can't compare the markets."

    Interesting thoughts but inaccuarate. While the numbers maybe right the Dolphins do not share their market with any other team. Perahps their are some Bucs fans, but I doubt it. In fact its 4 hours to the closest NFL team, added to that the Bucs and Jags are relativley younger franchises. Miami had a head start enough to claim most of Florida. Yet the Jets however share their market with The Bills, Patriots, Giants, and Eagles all of whom are down the road a little ways. To say the Jets own CT. is a joke. In fact the Ravens and the Redskins are closer to the Jets than the nearest NFL team is to the Phins.
    First of all...there are NO Eagles fans in NY. i can almost guarantee you that! It may be close geographically, but as a rule New York sports fans LOATHE Philly teams. And I never said the Jets own CT...the Giants do. But there are fans there. You forget, I live up here and I'm in CT all the time.

    Even more puzzling is that you state that Miami is four hours from the nearest NFL franchise, yet you cite Philly, Buffalo, Baltimore, New England and Washington as possibly sharing the Jets market.

    Um...I'd like to know what kind of car you drive that can make it to ANY of these cities from East Rutherford in less than 4 hours! LOL! I have NO idea how you can possibly use that as an example!!!

    The ONLY team sharing the market with the Jets is the Giants...so cut that 22 million in half and you have 11 million...still 5 million more than the Dolphins, yet only 1,125 more people at each home game.

    Besides attendance is the only thing the Browns having going for them. I refuse to give in to your Jet abuse. Although I will commit them to 13th on my list, after more research.
    Okay, then what do the jets have going for them? Well...aside from the fact that they're still clinging to one game 40 years ago that was won bvy a quarterback who wore pantyhose? (okay, okay...i HAD to go there! LOL!)

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pagan View Post
    Hate to say this, (well...no I don't, LOL) and I know gueli's gunna kill me, but why aren't the Jets one of the choices?
    If that isn't futility, nothing is! ..
    And gueli, before you even TRY to bring up the Dolphins...
    I am not gonna kill ya. Truth is I like our going back and forth where we disagree (miami/Jets) and when we agree (penguins & yankees).
    While we stink, more often than not, the G men overshadow us (as in much like the mets/yankees) of the 2 franchises the Giants have been, continue to be and probably will always be more successful.

    Why would I try to bring the dolphins into this , its not like it has been as long for them as for us. Plus coach shula was a heck of a coach, who had longterm great success. While the Jets have a great number of blunders, both in coaching and management. I mean its no wonder Billicheck after 1 day, resigned as "HC of the NYJ".
    Should the jets be included- probably. But everyone remembers them for the superbowl prediction, and that they pulled it off once. (Miami won it 2x if I am not mistaken)- also miami is known for the perfect season.
    But like many of the jet faithful- Win lose, tie or die- we will keep rooting and cheering their successes- not lamenting about their obvious blunders.
    Its is how the "same old Jets" saying got started.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportsguy2315 View Post
    I'll agree with you there to a point, anyone crazy enough to hire Mike Milbury as a GM is an automatic qualifier. However, at least you guys aren't bankrupt like Phoenix and y'all are off to a decent start...
    good start. we didn't win a game the first 6 or 7. The reason the Islanders aren't bankrupt- Charles wang is minimizing the payroll so they ONLY lose 20 million a year !!! The owner has deep pockets & wants a new stadium.

  9. #48
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    Sorry about 3 posts in a row, but... I should have read the entire thread before commenting.

    As far as records go, Pagan, the fish won the superbowl when ? had the perfect season when ?

    Thanks to many who have stuck up for the jets. Truth is, much like the beloved Cubs, the Jets are just too well liked, or hated. They have success where it counts (in the money coffers of the NFL) to be one of the worst. As stated above I do not consider the dolphins lack of winning the big game in 35 years to be the mark of the worst franchise tag, just like the Jets.
    In looking at some of the lists - a couple of points-

    Expansion teams (this includes the browns)
    -Usually do not have great success within 15 to 20 years of their inception. There are too many factors against them. because of that, how can the New browns even count on the list, except for recent developments (Ok Ok since their recreation). Let alone the Texans- who are starting to put a team together (good O, pourus D) in the last 2 years.
    The Lions longevity, plus their futility put them at the top of the "worst" list.
    Tampa Bay, as an expansion team won how many games in its first 20 years ? and yet you rate them better than the raiders. The raiders have been to the big show, have won numerous playoff games, and have a tremendous (although fed up with their lack of moving foward these past few years) fan base.
    If you are going to look at historic figures, you have to take into account ALL the stuff that has happened to the NFL since its inception (or the merger if you only want to go back that far). But a number of teams, including the Raiders, have had success, albiet in the past.
    Perhaps to be included in the list you should have some parameters- you know what makes a bad team part of the worst.
    Teams that have Never won the superbowl, or made it to a championship game. How many would that be ?
    Teams that have fared poorly in attendance- over the past, say 10 years (or pick some other number).
    and a winning percentage record (or loosing).
    If you take these into account, than you can make arguments for many teams, and be able to rate them in something other than a subjective term.

    Oh and lastly, while the jets may not be a great franchise, pagan, based on how much you lothe them, they must have had some success
    Thanks all, Goodnight

  10. #49
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    Well I did set some parameters but I should have been more specific. I am also not a professional I did it simply based on my research, which I will endeavor to do more of.

    The parameters are four in total
    1. Championships/ Winning Percentage
    2. Fan Base (This is somewhat subjective)
    3. Current state of the organization as a whole
    4. Ticket Sales

    I did my best to rank the teams based on these parameters but will do a more complete sweeping list of all teams.
    Loads of trips since 1974...

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
    Well I did set some parameters but I should have been more specific. I am also not a professional I did it simply based on my research, which I will endeavor to do more of.

    The parameters are four in total
    1. Championships/ Winning Percentage
    2. Fan Base (This is somewhat subjective)
    3. Current state of the organization as a whole
    4. Ticket Sales

    I did my best to rank the teams based on these parameters but will do a more complete sweeping list of all teams.
    Cool but...
    1. Lions: Obvious answer agreed
    2. Browns (current run) A new level of fuetlity Can accept this too
    3. Cardinals: Four playoff total Not relavent, they made it to the big game
    4. Bengals: Ownership, dismal decades with rare glimpses of greatness Current state percludes them
    5. Falcons: Empty seats, lackluster fans tough one, looked good early & had success last year
    6. Saints: How many playoff runs? Before Katrina most people felt little pity for the worst franchise at the time, by far. Recent Success, and current run doesn't make sense
    7. Texans: While young they have yet to produced a single winning season. OK explosive offense, but expansion team still growing. also dont they sell out now?
    8. Jaguars: Just watch in awe of that empty stadium 'Nuff said
    9. Raiders: While a traditional powerhouse for years the constant moving, the coaching follies, and Al Davis give them a spot here. Fan Base is extrodinary, may be down on them now but fan base is nationwide, excludes them from worst
    10. Seahawks: Where 8-8 is a state of mind but not far removed from playoff contender

    OK I include my comments next to them
    now for a few
    Tampa Bay- perrenial loser, except for the gruiden years (plus 1 or 2) now back to being stomped on

    both New orleans & bengals success this year is promising, but if you are including them, miami was 1 and 15 2 years ago (dig at pagan ) I would think with the current success of both teams (The saints have had more success the past few years) that the argument doesnt hold water. If you are looking over a peroid of time, bengals are like the jets but no championships (and jets attendance is better)

    Cardnals prior to last year- yes they are included, but last years success and fitz being so promising, I wouldn't include them. they could make another run at the championship. their current state should exclude them.

    If you are looking recently Washington has had similar problems with losing and ownership.

    Also the Bills are in dispair. The chiefs have had quite a few problem seasons. also lets not forget about the rams (but they won the game not to long ago), da bears (but they are too loved), and carolina (again made it to the show not to long ago)
    Again- based on the specifics you provide, the raiders should not be there due to fan base (subjective yes, but how many raider shirts do you see out there, or if you walked into a bar, would you find a fan ?I think so)

  12. #51
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    Interesting responses but I would counter many of them. Each team has strengths and weaknesses based on the criteria. Recent sucsess is just one premise and cannot be allowed to inflate reputation. For every reason to include the Rams there are reasons to disclude them. I think we can all agree on these for inclusion disregarding order...
    Detroit
    Cleveland
    Jacksonville

    and mostly agree on
    Cincy
    New Orleans
    Cards
    Falcons

    Who we don't agree on
    But the Seahawks, and Texans are somehow getting some arguement but they cannot be rated much higher. And I am not unreasonable enough to say I may be wrong about the Raiders.

    AS for the Cards, for a franchise 40 years old one Super Bowl run does not erase the leagues worst winning percentage until then. Just because you make it to the big game once does not validate 40 years. Therefore Cards for sure make the list. Saints same story. Does anyone remember the Aint's? Until recently the Saints were simply the likable bottom feeders of the league. Recent wins and tradition of losses must be weighed evenly.
    One point you must remember their are only 32 teams. Ten teams is a thrid of the league. If you are arguing against inclusion of half of the teams you need 5 teams to replace them. I have scowered the web for numbers and similar polls. Most of these seem to back me up. With one exception.... The Raiders, I guess I just got carried away by the current state of the team. They should be replaced by the Bucs. The Bengals are not like the Jets funny that I seem to be the one defending your team . The management of the Bengals is routinley ranked as one of the worst in pro sports.

    I have already relented on the Bucs they can replace the Raiders. The Rams may be an interesting thought as well, but I don't think they expel any of the other 10 teams. The Bills could get some votes but they did have a pretty solid run in the 90's but like I said a few good years cannot erase the bad totally so maybe they deserve some mention. But then you would have to consider teams like the Dolphins, Vikings Chargers, Titans, Colts, and Bears who all had bad runs for extended stretches.On the other hand each of these teams has been a solid contender for an extended amount of years at various points and fan support for each of the previous teams is strong. Although the Colts and Vikings were routinley mentioned as moving candidates until their recent upswings.. Even the Packers and Cowboys toiled away hapless for long stretches of time but I certainly would not consider any of these teams loosing seasons enough to erase years of legitimcy. Heck just about every team has a bad stretch even the Pats, 49ers, and Steelers. The question is, were those bad stretches long enough to overshadow the bad? In the Saints, Bengals, Falcons, and Cards cases I would say no. Plus for each of these teams fan support has been weak at times. In the case of the Bills and Rams I would say yes (don't forget the Rams of the late 70's in addition to the early 2000's).

    As for the Seahawks I would say they are on the bubble clearly. They have not put together a long enough contender run to justify dismissal from consideration. Sure they are perinial mid card workers, but excluding very few good years what have they done? They had a run recently of a few contending years, and then maybe the Zorn to Largent era was okay but that is it. 30 years with nothing special save a Super Bowl loss.

    As for the Texans. Where would they rank, if they do not belong at the bottom? Even with their new found offense they only a few losses from missing the playoffs again. Before you say but they are a few wins away from...let me cut you off. How many years have they been in the league? With the instant results built into the new franchises and the radical change of foruned in the NFL expansion is not what it used to be. Teams no longer need 15 years. These days that is no free pass for loosing. Both the Jags and the Panthers were contenders long before this point in their history.

    I will like I said take time to re-rank but I would love to see you guys post your rankings.
    Loads of trips since 1974...

  13. #52
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    Cool

    Excellent reply.
    Perhaps I was too tounge & cheek about the jets. However at times their managment choices...(let me drop one name- Rich Kotite)

    NFL 10 worst franchises by gueli

    1-Lions
    2-(New) Clevland Browns
    3-Bills
    4-Cincinati (you made a good point)
    5-Tampa Bay
    6-Kansas City
    7-Jacksonville
    8- rams
    9-Falcons
    10-Redskins

    now for some reasons- the top four have been floundering for the past 10-15 years. Cinci is the one team that is having some success, and they might be this years playoff darling, but for too many years they were some of the worst.
    Tampa had a few good years but they seem to have lost it again- and they had the worst record when they started.
    KC- when did they have a good season?
    Rams- moved, had some success, but now -are they on any track ?
    Your point about attendance is noted for the falcons.
    I Include the redskins because of their owner- but they are my weakest selection.

    for those who did not make my list- Texans- I have heard that they have decent attendance #'s and they seem to have management in place to keep them going.
    the cards have had too much recent success, and again the foundation of their current team seems good, which means managment has done something right. If they fall apart in a year or 2, they would be back on my list in an instant. SF has too much of a fan base. same with raiders, jets, da bears and some others.
    Seahawks are on the bubble - never great, but more often than not a solid team (8-8).
    The saints- many years a bad team, but now their managment seems to have it right, they have some real good players, and their success over the past 2 season does not wipe their history out, but how many games have they not sold out ? Recently ? again pushes them beyond the top 10 worst.
    And remember- there was a time before Bob Kraft & Billicheck, when the pats would have been on the list. Kudo's to them for turning that franchise into a powerhouse.

    Now its time for everyone else to rip my list & write their own.

  14. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pagan View Post

    First of all...there are NO Eagles fans in NY. i can almost guarantee you that! It may be close geographically, but as a rule New York sports fans LOATHE Philly teams.
    Pagan, you are totally wrong with this comment. My sister works in NYC and is an Eagles fan. Now true, she lives in Weehawken (just across the river), but her co-worker Justin is also an Eagles fan and does live in NYC. I know for a fact that there are bars that are "Eagles" bars in the city where transplanted Eagles fans can go and watch their team. There are also bars dedicated for Steeler fans too. They are nice bars, too, not dives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pagan View Post
    Even more puzzling is that you state that Miami is four hours from the nearest NFL franchise, yet you cite Philly, Buffalo, Baltimore, New England and Washington as possibly sharing the Jets market.

    Um...I'd like to know what kind of car you drive that can make it to ANY of these cities from East Rutherford in less than 4 hours! LOL! I have NO idea how you can possibly use that as an example!!!
    You can easily make Philly to NYC in less than 2 hours by car. Meadowlands, we are talking 1 hour and 20 minutes on the NJ Turnpike. Baltimore and Washington are about 3 hours away. Not driving like Speed Racer either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
    You can easily make Philly to NYC in less than 2 hours by car. Meadowlands, we are talking 1 hour and 20 minutes on the NJ Turnpike. Baltimore and Washington are about 3 hours away. Not driving like Speed Racer either.
    Just to back Christine up, I've routinely made all these drives in the amount of time she specifies, if not less.

    In fact, if you use take the train it's even less time.
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    okay here are my exhaustive rankings I took the parameters and rated each team 1-32 then I added the totals and here is what I got. Remember each parameter counted equal so teams who may be doing excellent now were rated just as fairly on their fan base and winning over the years. On the contrary teams not doing so well now and recently I.E. the Bears were helped a great deal by other factors.

    1. Steelers (no shock here)
    2. Packers (also not a shock)
    3. Cowboys (Upseting as it is)
    4. Giants (Surprised that they topped the Patriots)
    5. Patriots (Thought they would have been higher)
    6. Dolphins (Wow this one caught me off gaurd)
    7. Broncos (Not a shock, great fans, tradition)
    8. 49ers (To bad the 80's and 90's could not erase the 70's and the last decade)
    9.Colts (while their fans are suspect the Colts put in a solid showing)
    10. Redskins (Ownership mess took them down a notch)
    11. Ravens (including Browns era, maybe a bit high but went by the numbers)
    12. Raiders ( Big shock here, tradition and fanbase carried the day)
    13. Eagles (lack of rings, but great fans)
    14. Chargers (solid spot for this team)
    15. Bears (fanbase and tradition)
    16. Titans (middle of the pack in every category)
    17. Vikings (rumors of LA move may have hurt)
    18. Chiefs (fans helped once again)
    19. Jets (broken record fans helped)
    20. Bills (broken franchise had enough history to stay out of the bottom)
    21. Saints (recent upswing helped)
    22. Rams (70's and 2000's Rams hid a lot of bad years and fanbase)
    23. Panthers (just too young to be higher)
    24. Bengals (super bowl loses actually helped plus the recent upswing)
    25. Falcons (fanbase hurt)
    26. Browns (current team, fans kept them from the very bottom)
    27. Cardinals (despite Super Bowl run their still the Cards)
    28. Seahawks (aa bit surprised by this but once again the numbers were there)
    29. Bucs (one Super Bowl win did little to help one of the worst winning % ever)
    30. Texans (very young franchise could not overcome miserable start)
    31. Jaguars (shocked at how low they are)
    32. Lions (figures)

    Observations:
    -The Jets are not in the bottom ten
    -While the fanbase boilstered many teams like the Browns a great deal, the Texans where helped a little. I just could not give them any high marks on tradition and winning %.
    -I assumed the Patriots would fare better, but #5 is nothing to be ashamed of.
    - I was completley impartial, and while it pained me to se the Colts in the top ten, Ravens at 11, and Cowboys at three, I was true to the evaluation.

    Let the debate begin
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    5. Patriots (Thought they would have been higher) You forget the bad years
    6. Dolphins (Wow this one caught me off gaurd) Coach Shula, Dan Marino
    ...
    12. Raiders ( Big shock here, tradition and fanbase carried the day) Ah my point is proven
    19. Jets (broken record fans helped) No suprise here
    20. Bills (broken franchise had enough history to stay out of the bottom) But not by much

    I am also glad to see I was correct about Tampa Bay.
    Thanks for the rankings, I posted comments next to the teams with my thoughts...

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    I picked the Clippers since they have won absolutely NOTHING in their franchise history. The Grizzlies are a very close second. Memphis has only moved once Clippers have moved three times. OK the third time was within the same city.

    The Lions are everyone's favorite because of this decade. You tend to forget that they were decent in the late 80's and 90's until Barry Sanders retired. Ask Favre how difficult it was to win in Detroit in his early years. Conduct this poll next April and there would be more votes for the NBA franchises.

    How the Cubs escaped this poll I don't know. 100+ years without winning!
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    Quote Originally Posted by indytraveler View Post
    How the Cubs escaped this poll I don't know. 100+ years without winning!
    I made mention of them...but they have that fan base...
    and the we will get them next year attitude

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    Quote Originally Posted by indytraveler View Post
    I picked the Clippers since they have won absolutely NOTHING in their franchise history. The Grizzlies are a very close second. Memphis has only moved once Clippers have moved three times. OK the third time was within the same city.

    The Lions are everyone's favorite because of this decade. You tend to forget that they were decent in the late 80's and 90's until Barry Sanders retired. Ask Favre how difficult it was to win in Detroit in his early years. Conduct this poll next April and there would be more votes for the NBA franchises.

    How the Cubs escaped this poll I don't know. 100+ years without winning!
    1. Moving has little to do with the greatness of a franchise. The Browns were solid in Cleveland and the Colts were fine in Baltiomore before the moves.
    2. As for the Lions, you do realize even with Barry Sanders the Lions did not win a single playoff game during that time? That is in spite of having the greatest running back of the era on their team. Since 1957 they have the worst winning percentage of any team in the NFL. Sure ask Brett Favre he beat the Lions twice in Detroit in the playoffs.
    3. The poll included tradition and fanbase that is why the Cubs had no business here. The question was "worst franchise" the total package not "franchise that looses the most".
    Loads of trips since 1974...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlawler View Post
    But then you would have to consider teams like the Dolphins, Vikings Chargers, Titans, Colts, and Bears who all had bad runs for extended stretches.
    You need to do some research my friend. Since the Dolphins made the transition from expension team into playoff contender in 1970, they have only ONCE had more than one losing season in a row. That came in 2006 and 2007. There have been no "extended stretches" of bad seasons for the Phins.

    Making the playoffs 22 times in 43 years is kind of amazing. So is a 385-277-4 career record.

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