Disney Sells Land at Disney World to Four Seasons

[big blue and hairy]

Well first of all, let's remember that the rating system goes up to five diamonds, not four. That means that the GF is a 2nd tier hotel that charges 1st tier rates (due to the aforementioned "location, location, location").

In addition, if memory serves, the GF was once a five diamond resort and lost it's fifth diamond.

Lastly, I'm quite certain the Four Seasons will be a five diamond resort.

Okay so maybe it was an overstatement to say it was "a 3 star resort at best", but the point is (as I said before) it's a 2nd tier hotel with 1st tier prices ... not due to the amenities and service, but due to its location.

I'm quite aware of the Diamond system. I agree that the Four Seasons may well get five diamonds. My point, which you agreed with is that you are way off base calling GF a 3 diamond at best. It is a solid 4 diamond resort.

Grand Floridian isn't a 2nd tier hotel priced as a 1st tier. Of course location affects price. All of Disney's hotels are priced higher because they are Disney hotels. Some of that is location, some of that is service. Disney service is very good.

Five Diamond hotels are few and far between because of the staffing and training cost involved. In most cases, it just isn't worth the return on investment.

You don't really think the Four Seasons will be priced similarly to the GF do you? If you do, you're dreaming. There is no way.

[big blue and hairy]

The AAA Five Diamond Award for hotels and restaurants is North America’s most coveted symbol of excellence in the hospitality industry. For 2008, AAA added eight hotels and four restaurants to the list, bringing the total number of Five Diamond properties to 160 (100 hotels and 60 restaurants).

Representing the upper echelon of the hospitality industry, AAA Five Diamond Award® winners make up just 0.27 percent of the 60,000 Diamond Rated® lodgings and restaurants throughout the United States, Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean. As demonstrated by so few properties attaining this level of quality and service, the guidelines for AAA Five Diamond status are stringent, ensuring consumers a truly memorable experience at a AAA Five Diamond establishment.

Hmmmmm....so being merely four diamonds makes it 2nd tier....you are fussy....

BTW, one of those 60 restaurants is Victoria & Alberts. Where is that?

[Mousemates]

You don't really think the Four Seasons will be priced similarly to the GF do you? If you do, you're dreaming. There is no way.

Room pricing is not really my area of expertise (in fact I'm not sure anything really is, I'm more of the jack of all trades and master of none fellow). But an online search of a couple of different four season resorts (I looked at Miami and Dallas) showed rooms (some very,very nice rooms) at prices a good deal lower than our AAA disocunted rooms at the Poly. So, similarly priced rooms might not be such a dream after all.

[Vito]

Room pricing is not really my area of expertise (in fact I'm not sure anything really is, I'm more of the jack of all trades and master of none fellow). But an online search of a couple of different four season resorts (I looked at Miami and Dallas) showed rooms (some very,very nice rooms) at prices a good deal lower than our AAA disocunted rooms at the Poly. So, similarly priced rooms might not be such a dream after all.

But it's ON Disney property, essentially. That's not the same as a Four Seasons in Miami or Dallas.

But even so, it's not totally about it being more expensive or necessarily catering to a more elite crowd. It's also partly geared towards a particular experience that guests are after. Believe or not, many people don't want the "Disney touch." The Four Seasons might serve as a bit of a compromize for a family or a couple that's split between wanting to go to WDW and wanting a high-end hotel and golfing experience that doesn't immerse you Disney "stuff" everywhere.

It's more about a high-end alternative to the total Disney immersion that some people may not be interested in.

(Even so, I still think you're looking at $400-$500/night and way on up from there, simply due to location/amenities... the cheapest room during Sept at the Las Vegas Four Seasons is 275/night and goes as high as $5,000/night, and the cheapest room at the NY City Four Seasons is $675/night)

[big blue and hairy]

But it's ON Disney property, essentially. That's not the same as a Four Seasons in Miami or Dallas.

Exactly.

But even so, it's not totally about it being more expensive or necessarily catering to a more elite crowd. It's also partly geared towards a particular experience that guests are after. Believe or not, many people don't want the "Disney touch." The Four Seasons might serve as a bit of a compromize for a family or a couple that's split between wanting to go to WDW and wanting a high-end hotel and golfing experience that doesn't immerse you Disney "stuff" everywhere.

You're right about that, too. They're crazy , but you're right.

(Even so, I still think you're looking at $400-$500/night and way on up from there, simply due to location/amenities... the cheapest room during Sept at the Las Vegas Four Seasons is 275/night and goes as high as $5,000/night, and the cheapest room at the NY City Four Seasons is $675/night)

That's about what I was thinking, also.

[Ian]

Some of that is location, some of that is service. Disney service is very good.

Well, I'd take issue with that if you're trying to compare Disney service to Four Seasons service. IMO, it's not even close.

It used to be ... way back when ... but nowadays the service at the GF is more on par with what you get a a higher-end, moderately priced hotel like a Marriott or Hilton. I mean it's not Motel 6 for sure, but it's definitely no Four Seasons either.

And yes ... I do suspect that the pricing for the Four Seasons will be comparable to that of the GF. It almost has to be, because (again) of the location issue.

It'll be more, I would guess, but probably not as much more as you might think.

Also, I'm wondering how many people involved in this debate have ever actually stayed in a true, high-end hotel? A Four Seasons or a Ritz-Carlton or some place like that?

If you haven't, then it's difficult to understand just how different the service levels are from Disney hotels. I know a lot of people here think that resorts like the Poly and the Grand provide a superior resort experience, but until you've actually had a superior resort experience you really can't grasp how average Disney's hotels are.

I'm telling you that seasoned high-end travelers absolutely don't consider any of the Disney resorts true deluxe resorts.

I wish Christine would chime in here ... her sister works in the hospitality industry booking conventions and she lays out the details very clearly and concisely.

[LauraleeH]

I love the Wilderness Lodge because it's gorgeous. It looks like a lodge! But it's dirty and expensive. I've stayed at the Omni and it's a 5 minute drive to Disney and it's much cleaner and actually costs less. And it offers a lot more. But it's not the atmosphere that I love. I love the atmosphere of the Wilderness Lodge. Bottom line, if they kept it up better, I'd be willing to pay extra for WL. I'm always willing to pay extra for anything new or clean. I'm not alone, either...I know lots of people feel the same. Some Disney Resorts might have to step it up a bit and try to compete for The Four Seasons guests.

[lockedoutlogic]

If Disney needs this to tap into the luxury crowd, are they saying the GF and other delux resorts are not so delux?? Does that mean they are now some sort of super moderate?? Does that mean it will bring their prices down?? Somehow, I think not

I would say that this is the closest estimate to what a disney "deluxe" is that i have ever seen....

they really are "supermoderates".....the difference in amenities is negligible......a restaurant.....a marina with overpriced rentals....15 sf or room space.....and usually a "better" location in relation to theme parks.....maybe a 25 foot waterslide instead of an 8 foot one....two hottubs instead of one

I love the deluxes because you do get "the most" -but they are far from white glove.....they lag behind four seasons, ritz carlton, many westins, biltmore, st. regis, and a boatload of other non-chain luxury hotels (there are probably 10 hotels in florida with better service across the board...the Breakers comes immediately to mind).....

as far as the price goes....look for them to go up...not down....

by and large....they are selling a piece of sentimentality to the customer....and that comes with a healthy pricetag

The disney resorts are marketed to all those who want to - deep down -stay in "Mickey's hotel".

There are plenty who will pay more than they do now to get that. No shortage of customers.

[Ian]

I would say that this is the closest estimate to what a disney "deluxe" is that i have ever seen....

they really are "supermoderates".....the difference in amenities is negligible......a restaurant.....a marina with overpriced rentals....15 sf or room space.....and usually a "better" location in relation to theme parks.....maybe a 25 foot waterslide instead of an 8 foot one....two hottubs instead of one

Right ... this was basically my premise, too. In fact, when you get right down to it, it's kind of surprising that anyone really pays the rates for the deluxes when you compare what you get for your money to the moderates.

I mean I think the theming may be a little more elaborate (to a degree) in the deluxes and certain being on the monorail line is a bit of a perk (although not what it once was, with a significant portion of the resort not serviced by the monorail) ... but you can get a room in a moderate, almost at will, for $150 a night.

Most of the deluxes will set you back twice that much on a good day.

But, in the spirit of my absolute belief in the efficiencies of a free market, people must see some perceived benefit in them over the other Disney resorts, because the deluxes are almost always sold out.

My guess is that a large part of it is a status thing ...

[big blue and hairy]

Well, I'd take issue with that if you're trying to compare Disney service to Four Seasons service. IMO, it's not even close.

When did I say that? I simply stated that the things you said about the Grand Floridian and the diamond ratings were wrong and they were.

I beleive I said that the Four Seasons might get five diamonds

And yes ... I do suspect that the pricing for the Four Seasons will be comparable to that of the GF. It almost has to be, because (again) of the location issue.

It'll be more, I would guess, but probably not as much more as you might think.

We'll see, Four Seasons will have to pay more and pay more people to have service that is going to approach five diamond. Staff to guest ratio is non-negotiable if you're trying to get a fifth diamond. That's why it's just not worth the money to most resorts.

Also, I'm wondering how many people involved in this debate have ever actually stayed in a true, high-end hotel? A Four Seasons or a Ritz-Carlton or some place like that?

I have.

If you haven't, then it's difficult to understand just how different the service levels are from Disney hotels. I know a lot of people here think that resorts like the Poly and the Grand provide a superior resort experience, but until you've actually had a superior resort experience you really can't grasp how average Disney's hotels are.

OK, here's where you argument falls apart. Disney offers surperior service, that is four diamond level. To get the fifth diamond that as I showed, only .67 percent of hotels in the US, Mexico, Canada, and the Caribbean get, you must provide extrordinary service. The kind of service that surpises you and requires much more staff.

I'm telling you that seasoned high-end travelers absolutely don't consider any of the Disney resorts true deluxe resorts.

You are refering to a very small percentage of travelers that either have more money than they know what to do with, or travel on expense accounts. The vast majority of travelers consider Disney's deluxe resorts to be, well, deluxe.

I never disagreed with your comment about the traveler that would stay at the Four Seasons. To be successful, they will have to get about 95% of them.

Again, my arguement is with your description of the Grand Floridian as a 3 diamond at best. That is way off base, as you admitted in your previous post.

[Ian]

Yeah, when it comes down to it I think we fundamentally agree. The exception is it seems like your perception of the service at a Disney resort is significantly higher than mine.

[Hammer]

\
I wish Christine would chime in here ... her sister works in the hospitality industry booking conventions and she lays out the details very clearly and concisely.

Ask and you shall receive...

Cheryl is busy getting ready to leave for a conference in Berlin, Germany, so I'll have to do. On this topic, Ian and I agree. While the GF is nice, it is not in the league of a Four Seasons/Ritz Carlton. I just stayed for a night at the Water Club in AC and I'll tell you that was a deluxe experience which the Disney Deluxes do not match. Yes, the deluxes have a prime location, but they do not have the staff to guest ratio that a Four Seasons provides it's guests. I do think the Four Seasons will have privileges like the Hilton does now. People who are accustomed to that level of service find Disney to be lacking. Disney acknowledged that deficiency with allowing the Four Seasons to build. The world is not ending, folks!

[big blue and hairy]

Ask and you shall receive...

Yes, the deluxes have a prime location, but they do not have the staff to guest ratio that a Four Seasons provides it's guests.

Precisely what I've been saying! Four Seasons is more of a Super Deluxe it's a small percentage of the hotel business. There are a lot of Deluxe hotels, a category in which I would put the Grand Floridian. Four Seasons is a whole other level, like I said before.

The world is not ending, folks!

I agree completely, this is just another level so Disney will draw people who will eat all there meals at high end sit downs, and buy the most expensive souveniers, and the most expensive ticket packages and tours.

[lockedoutlogic]

Ask and you shall receive...

Cheryl is busy getting ready to leave for a conference in Berlin, Germany, so I'll have to do. On this topic, Ian and I agree. While the GF is nice, it is not in the league of a Four Seasons/Ritz Carlton. I just stayed for a night at the Water Club in AC and I'll tell you that was a deluxe experience which the Disney Deluxes do not match. Yes, the deluxes have a prime location, but they do not have the staff to guest ratio that a Four Seasons provides it's guests. I do think the Four Seasons will have privileges like the Hilton does now. People who are accustomed to that level of service find Disney to be lacking. Disney acknowledged that deficiency with allowing the Four Seasons to build. The world is not ending, folks!

I wish i had kept track of the amount of "that's it? " and "what am i paying for?" type comments that i fielded there (in another lifetime....it feels like)......

The GF is a very nice hotel that has probably satisfied or exceeded a large amount of their guests...

but it's not the Seasons......

we used to have guests who basically acknowledged that they thought the title and rates were pathetic for the level of service and amenity......

.....but they also acknowledged that it was in WDW....their wives/husbands/kids/families wanted it.....and they'd probably be back.....

It's the mouse, stupid (no offense....not calling anyone "stupid")

i applaud the decision to bring four seasons in.....they are the best or arguably the best.....this will only help WDW bolster their revenue (which...like it or not....is the only way we get anything new)...and be a positive change.

As for some of the other additions/subtractions of late....I start to wonder.

I don't like Saratoga at all....they repackaged the same failed resort and bloated their timeshare.....an obvious money move that hurts the whole membership....Their 8 year salvage operation on Animal Kingdom Lodge with DVC units might do the same

I don't really like the flamingo crossing....because it's a dangerous line to tip toe over. Their insistence on getting part of "every" type of clientele is a little ridiculous. Leave 192 on 192...even if it's a "better" 192.

after Iger's big statement's about "strengthening the parks"....they are now doing nothing to do it.....Everest-good....Midway-good
DHS-still incomplete AK-still incomplete.

It's as if somebody has to call and remind them: "you still have work to do before you can sit back and enjoy yourself"....like a first grader.


but the seasons is a good move....and one that is extremely low risk, doesn't cost much in overhead, doesn't cost a single employee, and will produce.

just a couple of lincoln's on the state of resort affairs

[Ian]

It's as if somebody has to call and remind them: "you still have work to do before you can sit back and enjoy yourself"....like a first grader.

Unfortunately, I think you're going to have to wait until the economy recovers before you see any more significant investments in the parks.

Most of what I've read about Disney lately has been about belt tightening, not big capital expenditures.

[lockedoutlogic]

Unfortunately, I think you're going to have to wait until the economy recovers before you see any more significant investments in the parks.

Most of what I've read about Disney lately has been about belt tightening, not big capital expenditures.

I know.....but it's complete backward logic...

Addition/Subtraction/change is inevitable in themeparks......it doesn't matter what the economy is like....you have to do it.

so now they sit on it and blame the economoy.....no money to do anything....

when it picks up...as it always will....they won't be able to do anything because they can't take anything offline due to crowds....

the tail wags the dog constantly.....but in the end is a sad truth:

Disney is like anyone else - they will simply do the minimum they think is required to keep the registers going. that's all.

[diz_girl]

Check the Orlando Sentinel blog for more detail and a rendering of the hotel. Looks nice, but still a generic I-4 feel to it.

I was thinking the same thing. The artist rendering at the top of the thread reminded me of the Gaylord Palms.

Maybe someone can answer my question. This hotel is not going to be on Bay Lake is it? The artist image shows the hotel on the water next to the golf course, which makes me think that it will most likely not be on Bay Lake, but facing the existing golf courses on the other side of FW. There was the thread that announced the deal earlier last year, but I can't find it. Thanks.

[lockedoutlogic]

I was thinking the same thing. The artist rendering at the top of the thread reminded me of the Gaylord Palms.

Maybe someone can answer my question. This hotel is not going to be on Bay Lake is it? The artist image shows the hotel on the water next to the golf course, which makes me think that it will most likely not be on Bay Lake, but facing the existing golf courses on the other side of FW. There was the thread that announced the deal earlier last year, but I can't find it. Thanks.

I'm not real sure either....the location was placed on maps that were floating around last year when it was announced. I just can't remember where

I do know that they are getting rid of either the eagle pines or osprey ridge golf course...so that would place the property between fort wilderness and port orleans.

as far as the water goes.....what many people confuse as "lakes" are actually retention ponds. when you build structure in a swamp like florida.....the ground water is high and it has to have some place to go......

that might be the "lake".....or perhaps there is an existing lake in the brush they will be using or expanding....or perhaps disney is building them one......

none of these things are "out of the ordinary" for construction in WDW.....it's all been done many times before.

[SFTrny]

I know.....but it's complete backward logic...

Addition/Subtraction/change is inevitable in themeparks......it doesn't matter what the economy is like....you have to do it.

so now they sit on it and blame the economoy.....no money to do anything....

when it picks up...as it always will....they won't be able to do anything because they can't take anything offline due to crowds....

the tail wags the dog constantly.....but in the end is a sad truth:

Disney is like anyone else - they will simply do the minimum they think is required to keep the registers going. that's all.

So..umm...that's good right? That's what we all do, even with our home budgets. That's the hallmark of a good business...in which it prospers and grows, providing more jobs to the local community and allowing them to invest in new theme parks. Just wasn't sure of the tone, but this sounds like a good thing.

[lockedoutlogic]

So..umm...that's good right? That's what we all do, even with our home budgets. That's the hallmark of a good business...in which it prospers and grows, providing more jobs to the local community and allowing them to invest in new theme parks. Just wasn't sure of the tone, but this sounds like a good thing.

difference being is that you're not trying to lure repeat customers to your house at all times....

that is what Disney is asking us to do...

and providing more jobs to the local community is exactly what disney DOESN'T want to do at this point....

at one time they thought this way...knowing that the good will and increased population was good for their longterm success. That is now over....they are an international vacation destination. The goal is to reap maximum revenue with the fewest amount of employees possible.

There was this "destination disney" plan for the resorts that started about 10 years ago that they spent a ton of money on to eliminate the employee at every turn possible....computerized checkins....automated transport.....as many self service things as possible....

the workers are the enemy