"Wait Time" signs-intentionally wrong

[dutchess18]

Wondering if any CM's can give insight on this.

I am 100% convinced that the "Wait Time From This Point" signs are almost always exaggerated.

For example, a ride may say "45 Min" regardless of whether the line is outside the door or only filling half of the inside queue.

We already know that the Haunted Mansion and Tower of Terror put "13 Min" up even when the ride is a walk-on.

I've never actually stood in line for "Living With the Land", but I highly doubt people are waiting 60 minutes for the boat ride. But it sure is a good gimmick to get people to pick up a FastPass and kill time in the food court.

My guess is that the other attractions do it for the psychological factor. More people will pick up FastPasses if the line seems to long--- those that choose to wait will be pleasantly surprised when they're out of the attraction 15 minutes earlier than planned.

I don't mind that Disney does this. But it doesn't make sense now that they're using automated wait time counters (those white plastic cards that are swiped as select guests enter the queue, and swiped again when they board the attraction)

[Ian]

Yep. That's true. I'm not a CM, but I've had more than one CM tell me that they do that on purpose to "exceed your expectations".

In fact, our Backstage Magic Tour Guide told us that ... He was quite proud of it, although I don't really understand why. :confused:

[imported_PolyGirl40]

The Tower of Terror is always 13 if there is no wait. It's a bad luck omen with the superstition to the number 13.

I'm sure they also add minutes to the wait lines to accommodate any delays. I think few people would complain if the wait was shorter ... but many would complain if the numbers were off greatly on the other end.

[I take the Ferry]

HOLY COW I had no idea what those white card things were for!! Now it ALL makes SENSE!!

We did Splash Mountain the other day, it said something like 45 minutes and we waited for an hour and a half. I heard a CM say that someone jumped off one of the boats mid-ride, though.

I don't know how they can predict waits anymore with the fastpass system... if all the fastpassers show up at once, the standby would be... well, standing by, I guess.

Slater!
I take the ferry.

[Mufasa]

This is a complicated topic to try and breakdown (but I'll certainly give it a try from a theoretical standpoint).

It is very difficult to estimate accurate wait times because of fastpass. Fastpass has really changed the entire thought process and approach towards queue management.

In the old days (pre-Fastpass), attractions had a direct correlation between wait times and the length of the line. WDI would design an attraction queue and park operations would know that if all switchbacks were being utilized then you would know that if the line reached a certain point that would translate into X number of minutes wait time (if everything were running optimally).

For example, Indiana Jones at Disneyland- there's 1,400 linear feet of queue (with all switchbacks, etc) from the entrance to the temple all the way to the loading platform which translates into about an hour that could be held in the internal queue (50 minutes actually), taking into account Indy's theoretical capacity for riders per hour.

In the days before fastpass- the attraction lead or a manager or other CM would periodically (maybe every 15 minutes or so) update the wait times by visually looking at how long the line was.

After fastpass was introduced, they still essentially use this method (with mixed results). A CM would make an estimate on the standby wait time (based on how long the line was for standby) and it would then be input into a computer system that takes into account fastpass (basically, it calculates the theoretical queue length based on the number of fastpasses distributed) and adjusts both the fastpass return window and standby wait times.

For every fastpass distributed that's another "virtual" person waiting in line. Where it gets tricky is you actually have a window of time to return (some people grab a fastpass and they don't use it, but the computer doesn't know that the virtual person they have standing in line isn't there). And you also get fastpasses which have expired (beyond the return window) but people will return to the attraction and be admitted via fastpass (suddenly, you're adding people that the computer already has calculated have been on the attraction and through the queue).

FLIK works to try and provide a more accurate measurement to the computer of standby wait times (it's measuring how long it really takes someone to move through that fixed queue) and uses it to update and adjust it's measurement of virtual people in the queue (those in fastpass). To the attraction, there really isn't a separate standby and fastpass queue- it's all one queue in theory, but in practice that's a different matter.

[imported_PolyGirl40]

Mufasa = graemlins/notworthy.gif

[Ian]

I'll go one further ...

Mufasa = graemlins/notworthy.gif graemlins/clappy.gif graemlins/notworthy.gif

[I take the Ferry]

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

My fiancee will think I'm so smart!

Slater!
I take the ferry.

[Mufasa]

Thanks for the graemlins/notworthy.gif praise. There really are no gimmicks involved- let's take the scenario of Living with the Land.

If everyone just grabbed Fastpasses for the attraction (no one lined up in standby at all)- what do you post as the wait time for the attraction? If people continued to just go and grab fastpasses, it'll continue to bump up the fastpass return time, but it also has to be reflected in the standby wait time (in reality, the ride would be a walk on if you went through the standby queue).

To balance everything out, there is a fixed number of fastpasses distributed each hour (to try and limit those standby times from being too exaggerated). In theory, take roughly half of your hourly rider capacity and give it to fastpass (the other goes to standby). You should still be able to calculate wait times based on queue length (or so that was the original thinking).

Now with FLIK being able to actually track a real person in the standby queue along with the computerized virtual people represented by Fastpass, the times should be more accurately represented, but it's still all dynamic and subject to fluctuations.

And then there's the question of the effect of fastpass on park guest flow. As you start to add more attractions with fatspass, how does that change people's touring pattern through the park and the park's capacity? (now you have a virtual person in line for you on Splash Mountain- what happens while you're waiting for your fastpass, you decide to ride Space Mountain and wait in standby there?). Fastpass begins to have a parkwide effect.

[rt207]

Originally posted by I take the Ferry:
graemlins/thumbsup.gif

My fiancee will think I'm so smart!

Slater!
I take the ferry. graemlins/laughing.gif graemlins/rotfl.gif

[rt207]

Mufasa,
I'm with the others....you rock! graemlins/notworthy.gif

[Zippa D Doodah]

A somewhat amusing anectdote...

Last trip down (June 2003), we were in the stand-by line for Peter Pan on our last day. A CM gave us one of the white cards. I had no idea what it was for. During our 30+ minute wait we had a grand time speculating on what this mysterious white card was all about. DS-4 was certain that it must mean Peter Pan was going to hop on the ride and ride with us since we were so lucky as to be the only ones with a white card. As for me, I was hoping it meant we would get a free meal or something graemlins/rotfl.gif DD and DS were a bit disappointed when the CM at loading point told us it was all about calculating line times.

[dutchess18]

Thanks Mufasa graemlins/notworthy.gif

I now have clarity. :D

[Dopeylove13]

Yea I definitely agree. A couple of years ago when we went I really wanted to go on Tower of Terror, but my dad said that the board said it was a 2 hour wait. I really wanted to go on the ride so I pleaded that we atleast go look at the ride. We went over and turned out that we only waited 30 minutes.

[CaptSmee]

I can vouch for "Flick". I held him at Test Track last year and the wait said 20 min and it only took 15. Hopefully the little gizmo helped make the time more accurate.

[BugeyedMuggy]

Mufasa, you put the engineer in Imagineer. But I must praise Polygirl also. graemlins/notworthy.gif
The idea is ... It is much better to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed. If the wait is shorter than expected, customers will be happy. smile.gif

[TiggerRPh]

You are my hero Mufasa!!

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[Noah's Helper]

I have an anecdote about the FLIK cards too. We were in the standby line for Kilimanjaro Safari when someone in line behind us handed one of the cards to the CM at the gate. The CM tried to tell the guy to wait until he got to the boarding area to turn the card in, but the guy said that someone even further back in line had asked him to pass it forward. :rolleyes:

[Disney24Seven]

I thought the posted stand-by times seemed to be longer since FastPass has become more widely used in the parks, now I know why!!!!! It's all those invisible people in line!!!!! graemlins/rotfl.gif

[IG_Pathfinder]

Managing expectations is a key factor for creating happy experiences. Last spring, I took my anxious 8-year old son to ride Tower of Terror. Stand-by time was posted as 15 minutes, so I figure no problem. Well the wait was over an hour due to all the virtual fast pass riders become real riders and getting first preference. Meanwhile the anxiety level of my son is going up, and my wife, who is waiting for us with our 4-year old daughter, is paging us on the walkie-talkie asking we are. It looked like the ratio of fastpass to standby was very much skewed to fastpass--easily 10 fastpass for every standby. We keep seeing hordes of fastpass people coming in, with the standby line not moving at all. When we got off the ride (my son liked the drops to the ride, but wondered why they had to make the story so scary), we noticed they had adjusted the stand-by time. With younger kids, we rarely do standby and this experience reinforced that feeling. It looks like even the best computer modeling estimates can get messed up.

John

[brownie]

I would think you'd pad the wait time some, just to try to account for any delays. Better to list a longer time and have people wait less time in line, than to have it say a short wait and make them wait a long time.

[Jared]

OK, I know I've been out of the loop lately, but what the heck is FLIK? I'm so confused. graemlins/crazy.gif :confused:

[Howdy Partner]

I actually waited over a hour for the living with the land ride. I guess because I had nothing better to do at the time. smile.gif
It took me a few times to realize the 13 minute wait at TOT was made up. graemlins/mickey.gif

[Black Jack Shallack form Frontenac]

graemlins/muscles.gif graemlins/clappy.gif graemlins/muscles.gif Belated Welcome to Intercot, IG_Pathfinder!
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[Mufasa]

Originally posted by IG_Pathfinder:
Well the wait was over an hour due to all the virtual fast pass riders become real riders and getting first preference. I know there are always questions about why do the CMs prefer to load people off of the Fastpass line instead of equally pulling people from Fastpass and standby lines? Part of that depends on the particular attraction and how it loads, but overall- the prevailing thought is that those people who have a valid Fastpass have already waited out their time in line.

FLIK (or Flick)- is an acronym, although I don't remember exactly what it stands for- something like "Fantastic Line Information Keeper" It refers to the white proximity scan cards on a lanyard that are handed out periodically to someone in the standby line and are used to measure the time it takes to pass through the standby queue (to update the computer model for wait times). They are scanned once at a point outside the attraction and again right before boarding the attraction.

Using FLIK helps to balance out those surges in returning Fastpass guests (especially after parades for example)- suddenly those standby wait times will shoot up.

FLIK really went into major use at all parks with Fastpass attractions in November of last year (although it had been in testing for a quite a while before that on certain attractions- like BTMR).

[Tink19]

Well all I know is that I have waited in the line for Living w/ the Land and the wait time said 60 minutes and I didn't think it was that long b/c it didn't look like it. To my surprise it was about a 90 minute wait :eek: . We waited FOREVER for that ride graemlins/sleepin.gif . It only looked like it was about 20 minutes. The ride didn't even break down. Thanks for the info Mufusa graemlins/notworthy.gif ..one question though..how do you know all of that? Did I miss something? graemlins/mickey.gif

[alittle figment of your imagination]

Mufasa you sit right up there with the tiki gods
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graemlins/mickey.gif
Max

[Disneydol]

Originally posted by Tink19:
..one question though..how do you know all of that? Did I miss something? graemlins/mickey.gif You DID miss something! ;)

Mufasa is a real live Imagineer!! And boy are we lucky to have him in our community!!

[Mufasa]

I wanted to add some more information on Fastpass (for those of you still interested). AKA- everything you may or may not have wanted to know about Fastpass.

First, why was Fastpass started? People hate to wait in line- especially at a theme park. Disney wanted a system to be able to have guests do more instead of waiting in lines (the more time your guests aren't in line, the happier they are overall and of course, hopefully that means more time they can shop and spend money)

Next, we wanted a system where we could operate the attractions more efficiently. Fastpass can dynamically adjust itself by ensuring a steady stream of guests through the attraction, while it takes into account just how well the attraction is running.

A key difference between Fastpass and other virtual line/ticket systems is that Fastpass will dynamically adjust itself.

For example, in other systems you may get issued a timed ticket and make a reservation for an attraction later in the day. (there are a fixed number of tickets available throughout the day). The assumption made is that the attraction is running at full, theoretical capacity. (worst thing that can happen is you return to the attraction and there's a line to wait because it broke down earlier in the day). There is no way to update those systems to really reflect just how well the attraction is running.

Fastpass is different- one of the innovations is there's something called a ticket distribution rate- it is how many Fastpasses to distribute at a particular time. This will fluctuate up and down, depending on demand. Here's a very simplified model of how this piece works:

g=number of guests carried (the attraction's hourly rider capacity)
x=guest count survey time in minutes (the current standby wait time)
z=percentage of capacity for attraction sent to the system (how much of the attraction's capacity is dedicated to Fastpass?)
p=ticket increment period in minutes (how we increment the return window time). For, example if it's 5 minutes we figure it's a fairly fast loading attraction. For a theater show we'd probably raise this value.

((g*z)/x) * p=dispense rate setting

Example:

A new attraction- Mickey's Nitro-Burning Flying Saucers Shoot 'Em Up can handle 2000 guests per hour (there are 2 loading platforms, each with 1000 guests per hour capacity).

Currently, there's a 60 minute standby wait for the attraction. The park operations folks want to maximize Fastpass on the attraction so they decide to distribute 80% of the capacity towards Fastpass (standby will be used to Fill-in as necessary for things like no-shows, aka people who grab fastpasses and don't use them).

If g=2,000, x=60, z=0.8, p=5, then
((2000 * 0.8)/ 60 * 5=133.33

So we round that down to 133. What does this mean? When we distribute 133 tickets via Fastpass, increment the fastpass return window by another 5 minutes.

What happens if let's say one side of the attraction broke down, suddenly our capacity is half so we want to slow down the distribution of Fastpass tickets (now we'd distribute 66 tickets before bumping up the return time by 5 minutes, if standby were still at the moment 60 minutes).

Of course, people holding current fastpasses will return to the attraction and the fastpass queue will begin to backup (so along with it standby backs up) which means that Fastpass begins to slow down it's ticket distribution and naturally continues to push those return window times further and further out (a realistic measurement of where the line stands).

This continues until the attraction can have a chance to clear up that queue. Fastpass return times are still pushed out, but by that time hopefully the attraction is able to clear out that backup (at the expense of making longer standby wait times).

Where Fastpass really has a huge benefit- starting with attractions like Mission: SPACE, we can continually plug in data directly from the ride system on just how efficiently the attraction is running. The closer we can get to measuring the actual rider capacity per hour (by measuring things like how long it takes the ride to cycle per hour against our theoretical model) combined with frequent, accurate measurements of standby wait times via FLIK, means more accurate wait times and everyone is happy.

[ November 12, 2003, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Mufasa ]

[Tink19]

Wow I guess I did miss something graemlins/silly.gif . That is so cool. I had no idea. I was thinking that person knows a lot.lol. I'm glad I know now :D . Glad to have you around Mufasa graemlins/notworthy.gif . Thanks Disneydol for letting me in on it graemlins/thumbsup.gif . Keep up the great work Mufasa! graemlins/mickey.gif

[Pirate Storm]

Wow! Great info Mufasa. Do you need a physics degree to work there? LOL! I guess that helps explain how you can get a fastpass at one attraction for 1:00 PM and then go to the next attraction over and the fastpass times are 6:00 PM.

[Ian]

Mufasa ... You are something else! That was some seriously great information !!!!

That deserves a ....


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[imported_PolyGirl40]

Originally posted by Disneydol:
And boy are we lucky to have him in our community!! You can say that again!


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