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dlpmikki
12-12-2004, 03:04 PM
We have a lot of discussions about whether to join DVC and what is good and bad about it. The discussions have quite often overtaken topics with more specific questions so we are setting up three topics to deal just with these questions.

This topic is for reasons NOT to join DVC - all the negatives from length of ownership to running costs. Please post any positive commenst in the 'Reasons to join DVC' topic.

grimley1968
12-13-2004, 11:51 AM
Mikki,

I appreciate your putting these topics up. This is a good idea. People know pretty well by now my feelings about why not to do DVC.

I also want to apologize for being so negative about DVC in threads where people, who have already joined, were sincerely attempting to gather specific information about DVC. My comments on DVC were not particularly helpful to those people and would have been much better placed in a thread like this one.

I'll try to gather my thoughts on this into a later post about why not to join DVC, but wanted to make sure I haven't alienated those who like DVC (I can see many positives about DVC) with my off-topic posts about it. graemlins/shakehead.gif

DVC2004
12-13-2004, 12:36 PM
Gimley-

No offense taken here! Everyone has an opinion and not everyone wants to join DVC. It's good to have all viewpoints considered when making such a big decision!

Also, it was a great idea to start these new threads!!!

Smee
12-13-2004, 07:45 PM
If you will NOT travel to WDW at least every other year ... don't join DVC.

If you can't make travel plans more than a short while in advance ... don't join DVC.

If you will usually travel to places other than WDW and DVC resorts ... don't join DVC.

If you usually stay in Value resorts and don't enjoy moderate to Deluxe resorts ... don't join DVC.

If you plan to primarily use DVC at other WDW resorts or other non-DVC options ... don't join DVC.

If don't enjoy staying onsite at WDW in great accommodations ... don't join DVC.

If you enjoy searching for discounted rates a few weeks prior to when you'd like to go and will miss that thrill of occasionally "finding" a great rate ... don't join DVC.

DVC is more for those who will enjoy the stability of being able to reserve far in advance (11 months) at "rates" that won't change (but are already "discounted"), in deluxe accommodations with wonderful amenities and with nice perks available for members (admission discounts, dining discounts, shopping discounts, cruises, special member-only programs, etc.).

DVC will offer all of this and more. It's definitely NOT for everyone.

grimley1968
12-13-2004, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by Smee:

If don't enjoy staying onsite at WDW in great accommodations ... don't join DVC.

If you enjoy searching for discounted rates a few weeks prior to when you'd like to go and will miss that thrill of occasionally "finding" a great rate ... don't join DVC.
I'm catching more than a faint whiff of sarcasm here. I'd prefer this thread stay sincerely one of reasons NOT to join DVC. Mikki set this thread up for a specific purpose.

Actually, I do enjoy staying at great WDW accommodations. My signature bears that out. Also, I've only once made reservations a "few weeks out", in 2001. All other times I made them at least 3 months, and one time, 6 months in advance. Finally, I don't occasionally "find" a great rate. I look for them exhaustively, until I find one I can live with.

I understand you love DVC, and I don't blame you for that. There are good reasons, which you have stated here and in other threads. But Mikki set aside a thread for reasons TO join DVC, and also a thread for "number crunching." Those 2 threads would be better suited to be an advocate for DVC.

Seriously, I'm looking for a justification to make the plunge, but haven't quite seen it yet. However, my bosses just told me we're opening an office in Ocala, which might tilt things considerably in favor of us buying in. My wife has more convincing to do.

It seems you are implying that anyone who does not cough up the considerable amount of money it takes to join DVC is just too dumb to plan their own vacations wisely. Maybe you did not mean it that way, but it sure is the way it comes across.

[ December 13, 2004, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: grimley1968 ]

Smee
12-13-2004, 11:18 PM
Since no one else had offered any reasons NOT to join DVC, I offered some valid reasons and I'll stand by all of my comments and suggestions. If anyone has a question about any specific comment, I'll be happy to try to explain further.

There was no hidden agenda or sarcasm intended or implied. Sorry you chose to view my honest comments in that fashion.

If you want to try to read into my comments with any other agenda, you're on your own.

DVC definitely does not work for everyone. The above comments were merely an attempt to identify situations and travel habits that may indeed prove to be less effective from within DVC.

Grinder
12-14-2004, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Smee:
DVC definitely does not work for everyone. You are right. Certainly, DVC does not work for the members. However, DVC renters benefit.

At $10 or $11 per rental point (which is the going rate), it is virtually impossible for a DVC member to stay in their accommodations cheaper than a person who rents DVC points, now or in the future.

Non-DVC members are able to rent everything that a member can rent. There is a surplus of people who rent for $10/point. If you're willing to pay $11/point, even better. The inventory available is exactly the same, because all that's happening is the member is calling up for you and making a reservation that he or she could make for themselves. Plenty of people know they won't be going next year, so you can even find members willing to rent to you who will call exactly 11 months in advance so you can get exactly what you want.

If I had bought 40 year DVC contract ten years ago and had used it for 10 years, then I would have used 25% of its property life up. Would you then pay me the same amount (or more?) to buy that from me even though there is only 75% of the useable property life product left? Of course not. Resale's of the DVC are obviously cheaper.

Next, in 20 years (actually it will only take 18 years) as DVC owners start to realize that their DVC "investment" is half way gone, values will plunge and the DVC will offer extensions (they have already done this once) to "double dip" the members. The smart members will bail out while a few will get stuck and go to their graves thinking that the DVC was a great financial deal.

However, most DVC owners will regret their "investment" long before the year 2042 because the DVC has you locked into the contract. You have no choice except to sell the contract or rent the points or default!

Have you ever noticed that DVC resale's are always available? The DVC supply far excedes the demand. "Time" is the enemy of the DVC members and the friend of WDW because DVC members don't own fee simple title.

In conclusion, just realize that the DVC is a very expensive prepaid vacation plan. You will never "break even" nor will you save any money over renting DVC accommodations either today or to infinity and beyond!

Smee
12-14-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Grinder:
You are right. Certainly, DVC does not work for the members. However, DVC renters benefit.You are correct in saying renters benefit, but members also benefit- usually more than the renter. Members can rent to regain money on points they otherwise wouldn't use. At $10 they are able to get as much as $6+ more than their annual dues for those same points. As indicated in the "number crunching" thread above, the actual cost for those points is likely as low as $6.25 even when you include purchase price. I know a lot of individuals who would be delighted with that return.



At $10 or $11 per rental point (which is the going rate), it is virtually impossible for a DVC member to stay in their accommodations cheaper than a person who rents DVC points, now or in the future. Absolutely not true. Even at $10 the member will stay for much less. (See reference above)



Non-DVC members are able to rent everything that a member can rent. There is a surplus of people who rent for $10/point. If you're willing to pay $11/point, even better. The inventory available is exactly the same, because all that's happening is the member is calling up for you and making a reservation that he or she could make for themselves. Plenty of people know they won't be going next year, so you can even find members willing to rent to you who will call exactly 11 months in advance so you can get exactly what you want.True. Not an indication of anything except the desire of some members to oblige others in return for the ability to rent something they are otherwise unable to use.



If I had bought 40 year DVC contract ten years ago and had used it for 10 years, then I would have used 25% of its property life up. Would you then pay me the same amount (or more?) to buy that from me even though there is only 75% of the useable property life product left? Of course not. Resale's of the DVC are obviously cheaper.
Wrong!! If you had purchased 10 years ago, you would have had about 48 years remaining on your deeded ownership ... and would still have 37+ years today. All contracts (except for SSR) end in 2042- regardless when they were purchased.



Next, in 20 years (actually it will only take 18 years) as DVC owners start to realize that their DVC "investment" is half way gone, values will plunge and the DVC will offer extensions (they have already done this once) to "double dip" the members. The smart members will bail out while a few will get stuck and go to their graves thinking that the DVC was a great financial deal.
Wrong again. No extensions to DVC contracts have ever been offered to date. Actually, the halfway point for the original resorts will come in 2017- less than 13 years away and yet the resale prices are still escalating. SSR contracts have another 24 years to the halfway point. Since opening in 1991, the purchase price has continually risen - the original cost was $51 per point and is now $89 for the original resorts and effectively $85 at SSR 9including current purchase incentives). Resales of those original contracts are now selling at $20-25 higher than when purchased and those owners have had the full use of the accommodations during that time.

You are correct that at some point, the resale values will likely fall (once DVC drops it's ROFR interest which artificially props up the resale price) and we'll get to witness what the market feels is the value for the remaining years.



However, most DVC owners will regret their "investment" long before the year 2042 because the DVC has you locked into the contract. You have no choice except to sell the contract or rent the points or default!I sure haven't noticed any indication that this is true yet, but it may happen. It is common in the timeshare industry when owners feel they have gotten value out of their property, abandonment of the title is not an unusual occurence. I expect that DVC will also follow that path- once DVC stops the resale price support with ROFR. Until that time, you won't find many that feel trapped.


Have you ever noticed that DVC resale's are always available? The DVC supply far excedes the demand. "Time" is the enemy of the DVC members and the friend of WDW because DVC members don't own fee simple title.

In conclusion, just realize that the DVC is a very expensive prepaid vacation plan. You will never "break even" nor will you save any money over renting DVC accommodations either today or to infinity and beyond! With about 90,000 owners, it's expected that for a variety of reasons, a small percentage (a very small percentage) will sell their interest. To assume it's for any single reason is very wrong. To suggest it has anything to do the title is very, very inaccurate. Every member does hold a deed recorded by the county (we can even look it up online in the Orange County recorders office). Ownership may be transferred by an estate, gifted to family members or sold (subject to ROFR) to another party.


"Break even" came within 5 years for my family. Those who choose to rent their points (even at $10) are realizing a healthy return on their actual costs. Virtually every member who purchased prior to 2002 can sell their ownership for at least what they originally paid and most will realize a significant return on that sale- in addition to also having great accommodations available during their ownership.

DVC is certainly more expensive than many other timeshares. Being onsite at WDW does come with some cost. DVC's capital reserve (paid for from our annual fees) offers great protection from future maintenance costs (unlike many other timeshare programs).

The feeling our family has with every DCV trip ... PRICELESS!!

dlpmikki
12-14-2004, 10:57 AM
Please can folks resist debating points made in these topics. I know it is tempting but these are arenas for opinions not debate.

If there are points to be made use one of the other highlighted topics - number crunching is the only one where varying opinions are encouraged!

Cinderelley
12-14-2004, 12:56 PM
For me, the biggest negative for DVC is that it isn't yours forever and ever. We have two timeshares that we'll have as long as we live, and then they will be passed down in our family from generation to generation. I don't like the idea of having a "contract" that will expire at such and such year. To me, it just seems like Disney used its fans to finance and upkeep some of its hotels. I undertand that this is what goes on whenever you rent a hotel room. Whenver you get a hotel room though, they don't make it appear that you have bought a piece of the pie.

donald-doc
12-14-2004, 03:49 PM
Sticking to the points- away from opinions.

Here are reasons NOT TO JOIN:

1- You don't like Disney World. graemlins/rotfl.gif

2- You are not interested in staying at one of the DVC resorts (includes Hilton Head and Vero) at least every other year. It is typically NOT favorable to use points out of the system.

3- This would be a financed purchase. (Don't sell your car to pay for this).

4- You think that this is a "financial investment." I beilieve that you save money- but you do NOT make money from this.

5- Currently, I think that the buy in price is a bit steep- even for the 50years at SSR. The return value is slipping.

[ December 14, 2004, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: donald-doc ]

DisneyLuvnNooks
12-15-2004, 09:15 AM
You know, these threads were a great idea, a chance for people to post a reply on positives or negatives on DVC. So far, all i see on this thread is non DVC people bashing DVC owners, are they jealous about not owning DVC.
What should happen is DVC owners writng about any negative eperiences that they might have. But, since there does not seem to be any, i guess there are no negatives.
Please stop bashing DVC if you do not own, I want to hear any negatives from DVC owners themselves.

Moderator, maybe you should start a 4th thread on this topic.............
JEALOUS NON DVC OWNERS WHO WANT TO BASH IT!!!!!!

TheRustyScupper
12-15-2004, 10:32 AM
As a DVC owner, my thoughts are:

Don't buy into DVC if you ...
... don't do WDW yearly.
... consider this as an investment.
... can't schedule vacations 11 months in advance *
... want a budget vacation **
... frequently trade for non-DVC resorts
... sacrifice the family budget in other areas


* Although you can do last-minute vacations, popular times of the year need advance scheduling, or you may not get the dates you desire.

** The total cost for a DVC week will average more than $1100 over the life of the contract, including maintenace fees, fees inflation, purchase price and interest.

grimley1968
12-15-2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by DisneyLuvnNooks:
You know, these threads were a great idea, a chance for people to post a reply on positives or negatives on DVC. So far, all i see on this thread is non DVC people bashing DVC owners, are they jealous about not owning DVC.
What should happen is DVC owners writng about any negative eperiences that they might have. But, since there does not seem to be any, i guess there are no negatives.
Please stop bashing DVC if you do not own, I want to hear any negatives from DVC owners themselves.

Moderator, maybe you should start a 4th thread on this topic.............
JEALOUS NON DVC OWNERS WHO WANT TO BASH IT!!!!!! Actually, there was another thread for DVC owners to discuss any negative experiences regarding DVC. This thread was created specifically to allow people to give reasons to NOT join DVC. Please read Mikki's purpose for this thread.

Also, if you'll notice many of the posts, they are from DVC owners who are honestly giving reasons NOT to join. That's certainly not bashing it. Read their signature lines if you don't believe me. Most of the posts, even on this thread, have signatures saying they are DVC owners of this or that resort. They are proud owners of DVC, and I value anything they have to contribute toward an intelligent decision by a potential future DVC customer (me).

I'm not a DVC owner, and I've certainly given some reasons I see not buy into it, but I don't think it's fair to say I've been "bashing" it, or the owners.

This thread was created for a specific purpose. Please try to stick to it. If you want to read negative experiences by actual DVC owners, there are plenty of other threads that contain those.

I also would not say I'm "jealous" of DVC owners, just because I'm trying to gauge all the positives and negatives of DVC ownership, before shelling out $14,000. I suppose I'm jealous of people who don't have to think twice before doing that, but I have to think long and hard about it, and I want to know everything possible I can about it.

[ December 15, 2004, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: grimley1968 ]

CantonMichigan
12-15-2004, 12:32 PM
A couple negatives

1) No member representation on the Board (the current board answers to Disney, not the owners)

2) As an owner, you're hoping the level of service stays high, but there are no guarantees. With the drop-off in the level of service (e.g. decreased operating hours in the parks) over the past few years, I get nervous about this sometimes.

grimley1968
12-15-2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by CantonMichigan:
A couple negatives

1) No member representation on the Board (the current board answers to Disney, not the owners)

2) As an owner, you're hoping the level of service stays high, but there are no guarantees. With the drop-off in the level of service (e.g. decreased operating hours in the parks) over the past few years, I get nervous about this sometimes. Who is on the board? Are there boards for every DVC resort?

I don't see the text "DVC Owner" in your signature, but I assume you are, given the places you've stayed at in the past, and you're knowledge of something like DVC board composition. I just want to make sure you're not a jealous non-DVC owner who's bashing DVC. ;)

AndrewJackson
12-15-2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Grinder:

At $10 or $11 per rental point (which is the going rate), it is virtually impossible for a DVC member to stay in their accommodations cheaper than a person who rents DVC points, now or in the future.
This is we chose not to join DVC. We rented 104 points last spring break. We were just about ready to join, and we decided to try this instead.

We just could not justify the expense, when we could stay at BCV for the same price as a moderate, without the investment or commitment to do it.

DisRuss
12-16-2004, 04:29 PM
I HAVE COME TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR DVC AND NON DVC PEOPLE TO COEXIST, LET ALONE DISCUSS SOMETHING CIVILLY, THIS SHOULD BECOME A SEGREGATED DISCUSSION BOARD.

MY NAME IS RUSS AND I AM IN SUPPORT OF A SEGREGATED INTERCOT

(note the sarcasm)

Septbride2002
12-17-2004, 12:26 PM
We looked into joining DVC and decided against it for the following reasons:

1) We enjoy the oppurtunity to pick a resort based on our cost at that time and what we are in the mood for. For instance if I want to stay at French Quater - I want to be able to do so. If I want to stay at AKL in a standard room - I want the option.

2) The fact that on top of the expense for the resort that does not include admission into the parks. So in addition to the price of the DVC, the dues, and the admission to the parks we would spend about the same amount of $$ anyway over the next 10 years. Once the DVC price was paid would we actually begin to save money and that only happens if the dues do not continue to increase. And there is no set amount that the Dues will increase or not increase every year. No cap.

3) The contract limit - If I am going to spend this kind of money on a timeshare I want it to be there for a lifetime. I'm only 25 so in 42 years I'll only be 67 - still very young in my opinion.

4) I felt it took away from flexibilty and to be honest I enjoy the hunt. I love hunting for the best resort deal, best ticket deal, etc etc. It is part of the joy of planning to me.

5) We really were not sure if we would want to continue vacationing every year to Disney. Actually we are pretty sure that in January that will be our last trip for awhile (of course we have the cruise in May - but that to me doesn't count as a Disney Park trip). We will be doing Napa Valley in 2006 for a friends wedding and in 2007 we want to go to Hawaii.

~Amanda

TheRustyScupper
12-19-2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Septbride2002:
... We looked into joining DVC and decided against it for the following reasons ...
1) In your case, these are EXCELLENT reasons.
2) As you mentioned, DVC is not for everbody.

RazdOnDis
12-29-2004, 02:11 PM
DW and I are seriously considering joining DVC as we are there at least once a year and usually twice. I appreciate the thread; its a great idea and is designed to get right to the point. I'd really like to pick up as much information as possible to discuss with DW because its getting close to crunch time as to go or no. I was just wondering if we could all just step back, take a deep breath and come out smiling. What do ya think? ;)

MaizeNBrew
01-04-2005, 06:13 PM
I *am* a DVC Member, here are the negatives that you need to be aware before becoming a member:

* If you don't go at least every 3 years, don't buy

* Don't buy to trade with interval international, DVC is one of the most expensive properties there is, and you could do much better trading with another quality property that won't be as expensive.

* DVC Members very rarely can get in on the package deals. I have been asking for them to create a meal plan package for 4 years now, doesn't happen.

* Risk of value, although fees cover insurance it doesn't cover what value the parks will have with things like economy going down, terrorism, et al. If the parks didn't operate at the level you expect, would staying in the resort be worth what you paid?

* Planning -- if you aren't a planner, don't even look at becoming a DVC member.

That is what I see as the negatives, if I had to do it all over again, post 9/11, I think I still would, but there are certainly negatives to think about.

Amoladora
01-04-2005, 11:23 PM
For the DVC, you must purchase it with your heart, not your head. Financially, it makes no sense at all. It's just a lifestyle choice.

Nana
01-05-2005, 06:49 AM
Amoladora,
Welcome to Intercot! graemlins/muscles.gif

[ January 05, 2005, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: bradleysnana ]

ronv22
01-07-2005, 08:51 PM
We bought 3 years ago. We purchased 200 pts at BCV, and the following year we bought 200 pts at VB. We originally thought it would be a great investment and the 2 years we used the pts were awesome. Why we chose to sell our pts was that it seemed that you can get a much better deal on hotels with the discounts. Now you do not get kitchens and extra bedrooms but the time we actually spend in the room we thought we were not getting the value that non dvc members take advantage of. We also thought there were alot more perks being dvc members but there is not. They give you discounts on meals and that is not that great. In my opinion DVC menbers pay alot of money and they should be offered more discounts like discounts on tickets then they get now. Like I said we thought it would be great and it was to some extent, but after careful financial review we deceided to get out.

Ian
01-07-2005, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Septbride2002:
We looked into joining DVC and decided against it for the following reasons:

1) We enjoy the oppurtunity to pick a resort based on our cost at that time and what we are in the mood for. For instance if I want to stay at French Quater - I want to be able to do so. If I want to stay at AKL in a standard room - I want the option.

2) The fact that on top of the expense for the resort that does not include admission into the parks. So in addition to the price of the DVC, the dues, and the admission to the parks we would spend about the same amount of $$ anyway over the next 10 years. Once the DVC price was paid would we actually begin to save money and that only happens if the dues do not continue to increase. And there is no set amount that the Dues will increase or not increase every year. No cap.

3) The contract limit - If I am going to spend this kind of money on a timeshare I want it to be there for a lifetime. I'm only 25 so in 42 years I'll only be 67 - still very young in my opinion.

4) I felt it took away from flexibilty and to be honest I enjoy the hunt. I love hunting for the best resort deal, best ticket deal, etc etc. It is part of the joy of planning to me.

5) We really were not sure if we would want to continue vacationing every year to Disney. Actually we are pretty sure that in January that will be our last trip for awhile (of course we have the cruise in May - but that to me doesn't count as a Disney Park trip). We will be doing Napa Valley in 2006 for a friends wedding and in 2007 we want to go to Hawaii.

~Amanda Amanda, you took the words right out of my mouth. These reasons are virutally identical to the reasons DW and I did not buy in.

mjstaceyuofm
01-11-2005, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Amoladora:
For the DVC, you must purchase it with your heart, not your head. Financially, it makes no sense at all. It's just a lifestyle choice. This sums it up quite well. There are many arguments for and against becoming a DVC member. We've owned for 8 years and have enjoyed it very much so far. I can always see a Disney trip being an annual or every other year event for us personally. When we do our own (albeit very personal) analysis - it makes sense for us to own and continue to own our DVC interest. In some cases (like last year) it was 3 vacations to WDW in a year all at DVC resorts.

One trend I'm noticing as a DVC member that dissapoints me tremendously is the very large point increases we are seeing lately by DVC for other Disney sponsored venues such as the Concierge Collection, DL and WDW hotels, Disney cruises, etc. If they keep up, the only reason to own DVC will be to stay in the DVC resorts. Not a bad option and the reason we bought, but the diversity of venues at reasonable point exchanges was very nice. That is slowly slipping away and a potential reason to not join DVC if you thought you'd take advantage of these options on occasion.

BTW Ian - are you telling me reason #5 posted above is really in play for you? I know you don't like the way things have gone over the past 10-12 years or so in WDW, but really...... ;) graemlins/crazy.gif

deb
01-11-2005, 08:21 PM
What about the people like us who joined when they first opened, paid somewhere around $40/point and paid it off 10 years ago? We now vacation every year for the cost of dues only-Won't everyone who buys now be able to say the same thing 10 years from now when the points cost $200 and it costs $1000/night to rent a villa?

mjstaceyuofm
01-13-2005, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by deb:
What about the people like us who joined when they first opened, paid somewhere around $40/point and paid it off 10 years ago? We now vacation every year for the cost of dues only-Won't everyone who buys now be able to say the same thing 10 years from now when the points cost $200 and it costs $1000/night to rent a villa? Good point. I've often thought it was a financially smart decision for us too as we paid about $50 a point compared to the $85+ it costs for points now..... Ours is paid off, the dues are about $75 a month for us, we get to write off property taxes from our DVC interest and now get a very good discount on annual passes. For us the economics work out quite well. Yes Disney has discounted a lot lately, but when things pick up in the World as they seem to be now, I'm not so sure you'll be able to find the bargains you've been able to over the last 3-4 years. The arguments roll either way, but as this is a DVC "negatives" board, I'll stick to what I said in my post earlier.

My wife and I stayed in Washington D.C. in 1998 for 6 days for something like 138 points at a great hotel right across the street from the Russian Embassy and a few blocks north of the White House. Now they don't even participate with that hotel anymore and the replacement resort in D.C. would cost about 200-250 points for the equivalent..... Not good. :confused:

cherie68
01-24-2005, 10:17 PM
Hi just got back from Disney and this is our third Disney related trip in three years. AKL twice and the Disney Cruise. Anyway got caught up in the moment ant listen to one of the DVC things. We put a deposit down now returned home have a lot of reget I think, have two little ones things just happen so fast hope it is a good idea some give me advice I would be so thankful

[ January 24, 2005, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: cherie68 ]

Anjabyber
01-24-2005, 11:22 PM
For me the one and only reason would be we simply cannot afford DVC. It is nice for those that can afford it and enjoy it.

dlpmikki
01-26-2005, 01:52 PM
Welcome to intercot Cherie68 graemlins/mickey.gif

Have a look at some of the responses on these highlighted topics - reasons to buy / not buy and number crunching. We also have a lot of information over in Info central about how it all works.

If you have a ny specific concerns / questions then start a new topic to get personalised answers from other intercot members.

Disneym8
02-20-2005, 05:08 PM
I posted a topic under Theme parks which an administrater should move to Vacation club.

The new post gives one more good reason to join DVC. Monthly dues can be paid for with Disney Visa Points. I would also recommend buying resales.

Amoladora
04-19-2005, 03:21 AM
Gosh. The Number Crunching thread was very interesting. Grinder's math was certainly correct. But I continue to argue with my husband and tell him that it is not about the money! I printed out the Number Crunching thread for my husband and showed it to him. He told me, "Grinder is right and these others don't want facts to disturb their fantasy". My husband is a CPA.

So, as much as I'd like us to join the DVC, it's not going to happen right now.

TiggerBite
06-13-2005, 12:57 AM
We just came back today from 8 days at PopCen. We had a wonderful vacation! I am currently in denial because tomorrow it's back to work. :(

While in the parks, hotels and at Downtown Disney I noticed the kiosks for DVC. I never noticed these kiosks when I was at WDW in 8/03 at WL.

I decided to take a look at SSR. The salesman (who stated that he was a real estate agent - let's face it he's there to sell) kept referring to it as an "investment" and made it a point to make sure I understood that I was "investing" in a real estate property....which we know is not true.

If this is such a good idea, why am I seeing these kiosks everywhere? You don't get the strong arm tactics like you do in Las Vegas, but I can't help but wonder why we are seeing so many....just curious.

I do have a few points/questions:

1) How often does the the purchase price of points go up? I was quoted a price of $98 per point. However, I saw posted a price of $85 per point.

2) How much "control" do you really have over this "investment"? What if the management of the property decides: all the kitchens need to be upgraded because they are ten years old; the pool is too small and it needs a bigger and better slide; or - what if there is hurricane damage? How often do maintenance fees go up?

3) Let's say it is 11 months out and I want to make my reservation. However, I cannot get a 1 BR with a water view because they are already gone, or only efficiencies are available. What recourse do I have? I know I can try another resort, but ony at 7 months out.

4) I love WDW. However, I honestly thought there would be more perks for a DVC member. Okay, you get a discount on tickets. How about 6 "right-now fastpasses" per park, per day? You know this is something they can do.

I was sitting on the fence, but now I am not too sure. It does just sound like I am prepaying a vacation. I could see myself going every other year or every two years, but there doesn't appear to be enough reasons to make it worthwhile.

Also, how can you "rent" off of another DVC member? Do they advertise information about this? If you do rent off of a DVC member, are you able to take advantage of package deals?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Now I must go to bed....it's back to the grind tomorow graemlins/ack.gif

dlpmikki
06-13-2005, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by TiggerBite:


I do have a few points/questions:

1) How often does the the purchase price of points go up? I was quoted a price of $98 per point. However, I saw posted a price of $85 per point.

2) How much "control" do you really have over this "investment"? What if the management of the property decides: all the kitchens need to be upgraded because they are ten years old; the pool is too small and it needs a bigger and better slide; or - what if there is hurricane damage? How often do maintenance fees go up?

3) Let's say it is 11 months out and I want to make my reservation. However, I cannot get a 1 BR with a water view because they are already gone, or only efficiencies are available. What recourse do I have? I know I can try another resort, but ony at 7 months out.

4) I love WDW. However, I honestly thought there would be more perks for a DVC member. Okay, you get a discount on tickets. How about 6 "right-now fastpasses" per park, per day? You know this is something they can do.

I was sitting on the fence, but now I am not too sure. It does just sound like I am prepaying a vacation. I could see myself going every other year or every two years, but there doesn't appear to be enough reasons to make it worthwhile.

Also, how can you "rent" off of another DVC member? Do they advertise information about this? If you do rent off of a DVC member, are you able to take advantage of package deals?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Now I must go to bed....it's back to the grind tomorow graemlins/ack.gif 1) Points were first sold in 1991 at $51. They seem to go up about twice a year

2)No control really apart from feedback. It is set up so Disney can do what they like. Maintenance fees do got up each year (usually - but there have been a couple when they have gone down). Average 5-8% increase last few years.

3)Views are request only and you don't know till you get there what you will actually get. At 11 months out you should not have any problem getting what you want. 10,9 or 8 months and if you are after a popular time it could be a different story. They do use a wait list system which many members have found useful to get the times / locations they want.

4)Perks keep changing. The discount on APs is new and a big improvement for most members on the previous length of stay tickets. Extra fast passes sounds like a fun idea - who knows maybe they will do something like that sometime.

It should be viewed as prepaying for a holiday and not an investment.

If you do a google search for 'dvc renting points' you will find a number of sites that rent points.

Have fun back at the grind!

John D
06-13-2005, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by TiggerBite:
How much "control" do you really have over this "investment"? I am frequently alerted to the time and place of upcoming shareholder meetings, and invited to attend.

I have never attended one, but I would guess that if someone wanted to express himself or herself to DVC management, or provide input to the decision-making process, a shareholder meeting would be the forum in which to do it.

Natazu
06-15-2005, 11:18 PM
After reading the above posts, I have to say most of them boil down to "is DVC right for me" not "is DVC a good deal" which is fine. People should make decisions based on their lifestyle and financial status.

For me, all of the objections I thought of, I was able to overcome on my own.

Sam Pinizzotto
06-27-2005, 12:21 PM
Well I have a lot I'd like to say, some of which probably should be in the other discussion thread. But, my first statement will explain why it's not...

I think it's very unrealistic to have a thread for "Reasons NOT to join DVC" and not allow those that agree with owning DVC the opportunity to argue the very points raised by those arguing against. Some of the negative information may not even be true or it's more of an opinion. So if it's not challenged, then it really isn't helpful to a person seriously considering the DVC.

Lets take discounts as an example...There are a lot of perks that the DVC provides. Just because a person doesn't or wouldn't take advantage of a discount or perk, means they may say "Not enough discounts are available to members"...Well if you look at what IS available to the members, it's a good amount. Now I will say that in some cases the discounts are not that impressive, but they are discounts none the less. And if you eat at the Yachtman Steakhouse, you will pay 10% more than me.

There is also people saying that DVC is not an investment. I would say that this is not entirely true. As others have stated, the cost of the buy in per point is historically lower than the resale. This may not always be the case, but isn't that the same risk you take when you purchase a condo, another timeshare, a car etc.? Granted, as 2042 approaches, the resale value will not be great, but the rental on points will still get you a return on your purchase. And until that point when the resale is just as good as or better than what you paid, a sale of your DVC ownership will net you a break even or close to break even on your initial payout. Isn't that considered as a good thing? Especially since you have used the points for quality vacations while you owned it.

I know for us...we have a little girl and hope to have another child...the Studio we get with DVC is much more conveinient for "baby things" than the regular rooms you rent directly.

The newest perk...$100 discount on the AP is really nice. We would buy these passes anyway, so we save $200. Yes, we have paid well more that this in our yearly Maintenance dues, but it's still a savings from our normal payout.

And again...not to beat a dead horse or anything...the final decision to purchase DVC has to be based on you personal preferences, budget, lifestyle, financial situation, etc.

I would ask anyone reading this thread to read the others, post questions to BOTH and weigh the comments here (even including mine) lightly until you can find evidence and proof to back it up. Some of the comments here, when read, sound like buying DVC is just like opening up the shield on your fireplace and tossing in $14,000...others can be read as when you buy DVC you have 51% of the controling interest in the Disney Company. I think it's somewhere in between both of these...

MCeee
09-07-2005, 03:58 PM
We, like some others posting here enjoy going many places when we vacation. Although we are not DVC members, we have been to WDW at least once every two years. On these occasions we have found incredible deals on site by just doing some research. And, yes, we have rented points from DVC owners. They have said that they always appreciate having some like us to rent from them when they are not able to go as often as they like. About 4 years ago, we were staying at the Boardwalk Villas and decided to do the "DVC sales tour". We were very impressed with everything! The "impulse" almost got us. We decided to sleep on it (we could tell the salesman didn't like this), and the next day he called our room like 4 times! When we told him that we were NOT going to go for it right now, he just about lost it! He became very rude, saying that this was the way he made his living and so on.... (Like we didn't know that). At that point we realized we had made the right choice. For us, not buying in was the right choice, and still is.

Medic Mickey
10-13-2005, 06:30 PM
We joined over the summer. We are part of Saratoga Springs. We will be staying for the first time this weekend. I will let you know my reasons not to join.

dtootsie42
11-06-2005, 02:00 AM
For those who actually gave the negative reasons for not joining DVC...Thanks...this has been a family discussion for a long time and I think we can make a better informed decision based on some of the things that we have read. So once again, thanks!

WertzFamily
11-15-2005, 09:36 PM
the next day he called our room like 4 times! When we told him that we were NOT going to go for it right now, he just about lost it! He became very rude, saying that this was the way he made his living and so on.... (Like we didn't know that). At that point we realized we had made the right choice. For us, not buying in was the right choice, and still is.

That's ridiculous. Our sales person was very relaxed and professional. I would have reported behavior like what you experienced.

WertzFamily
11-15-2005, 09:39 PM
Oh hey I have a question. Can somebody give me an idea how many points it costs to stay at, say, the Grand Floridian or the Polynesian?

GAN
11-16-2005, 07:31 AM
During Value Season(1/1-2/16, 7/4-9/28, 10/30-12/19) Poly would be 35points Sun-Thur and 63 Fri-Sat...GF would be 39points Sun-Thur and 70 Fri-Sat. This would be for a standard view room only. Based on the fact that you could probably easily rent those same points to someone for $10/point -it's really not worth it to apply your points to Disney Resorts. I would rent my points and use the money to pay cash for my room. For instance, I could rent 35 points for $350 and book the Poly for 250(?) or so. Forget staying on a Fri or Sat.

WertzFamily
11-17-2005, 02:07 PM
Sounds like those point values are actually more than what it costs for a DVC resort for that same time period, correct?

dlpmikki
11-17-2005, 02:44 PM
Correct - always better points value to stay at a DVC resort.

WertzFamily
11-19-2005, 12:12 AM
Interesting. Because our sales person told us that those resorts were actually less points, but she never did give us a list.

mouseDVC
11-19-2005, 03:55 PM
yup cost a lot more points to stay at a non-DVC resort but considering that in many cases the DVC resorts would be more in cash than those resorts, the use of points at a DVC resort is a good value.

TCLites
11-19-2005, 06:14 PM
Hey guys and gals, this thread is supposed to be about Reasons to Not Join DVC. These are good and valid questions, but how about opening a new thread if you want to know about the number of points or value of points at a Disney resort, etc. If someone wanted to search for the questions you are asking, they would have difficulty finding them because they are buried in an unrelated topic. Thanks

DisneyD
11-22-2005, 03:22 PM
After sifting through the flames, I have found this thread to be very informative. I have never been interested in time-shares, or things of that nature, but have always wondered how Disney was different. I now know that I am not missing out on something that would be to my personal likeing, although I understand others might perfer these types of arrangments.

As someone pointed out the "quest" is part of the fun for me, I figure half the enjoyment of a vacation is the research & planning, it lastes much longer than the vacation itself.

PinKy
11-22-2005, 04:16 PM
If you usually stay in Value resorts and don't enjoy moderate to Deluxe resorts ... don't join DVC.



That was kind of harsh, don't you think?

yikes.

Granny Jill A
12-20-2005, 03:37 PM
I was sorely tempted by DVC when I first heard about it. It appears to be a good deal for those who got in on the ground floor, but now it's better for those who have a lot of disposable income.

My only experience with timeshares came through a friend who bought into a lakefront campground. They bought a very nice trailer and spent two weeks in the summer and almost every weekend camping. When her marriage broke up, she tried to sell her timeshare. No takers..... she was stuck with it. Had to take a huge loss.

It didn't sound like my cup of tea, and neither does DVC. If I had bought when they first opened up the properties, I'd probably be happy about it. The thing is, if I buy a condo somewhere, that condo is mine forever. And it gets passed on to my heirs.

DizneyFreak2002
12-21-2005, 10:09 AM
I've been tempted to buy into the DVC a number of times... But one issue that holds me back.. MONEY!!!

jhiltz
01-04-2006, 12:23 AM
I have been a member for nearly two years. My last trip, I really started questioning whether I wanted to keep my membership.

Why I don't like it:
* The best value for your points is at DVC resorts. All other stays seem like a waste of points when you can get discounts.

* Towells, towells, towells. This past trip, I stayed 7 nights in a studio. The washer and dryer were in a different building. Unless I want to pay extra (decreases the "discount" you get with your points) I only got trash and towell service once. I didn't like having a pile of dirty towells and no clean ones coming. I am not sure why they can't do something similar to the pool where you can drop off used towells and pick up new ones. Since I travel so much for work, I've become a bit of a hotel snob. Not having fresh, clean towells really bothered me!

* room layout. I really don't like that you have to spend a lot of points to get two regular beds (unless you're staying at OKW). I was in a studio with just my daughter and thought how crowded it would be with any more people and how uncomfortable it must be to sleep on the sofa sleeper. The studio room size started reminding me of the All Star resorts.

* Vacation diversity. My family had vacationed at Disney 6 times in about 4 years. Now, I've been going to different cities and countries and haven't made it back to Orlando as often. DVC just isn't a great value for non-DVC resorts (see point #1), so it has become less of a fit for me.

Why I bought:
* There was a posting that helped me decided to purchase. It was from an accountant who had crunched the numbers and said it wasn't a financial investment but a family investment. I didn't grow up with vacations, I love Disney and we had been going to Disney frequently. I saw it as a way to force vacations to happen (don't want to waste points!) and a way to stay at the top tier resorts without paying a lot. I often would price the Yaht and Beach and just couldn't justify the price. I stayed at the Grand Floridian for less money on one trip than I could stay there. I think my daughter would love the water park area, so I saw DVC as a way to get to that resort without the high cost. I saw it as a way to ensure our family would take time together to vacation.

Give me another year and we'll see if I'm an owner or a seller. :)

mjaclyn
01-10-2006, 04:00 PM
DH and I have discussed getting a DVC membership many times and are still undecided. These are the two negative points that I see:

- I can rent DVC points now without the hassle of membership fees and the large up front cost.

- The membership expires

DH and I have rented DVC points on a number of occasions and spend less than we would even using the best AP rate. Also, if I were to buy into DVC I would want to be able to keep it forever if I wanted it - I think DVC members get jipped with an expiration date.

Still undecided.

candleshoe
01-11-2006, 01:19 AM
My dad is a DVC member and gave us a week at the Boardwalk villas as a Christmas gift. We just got back a few days ago. I was disgusted at the lack of cleanliness of the room (hair all over the bathroom) and have noticed that whenever we go now we never get a nice view of EPCOT. I'm suspicious that, since they already have your money and you've "bought in", that they give you lesser accomodations and service. Anyone else notice this? Forgive me if this has already been addressed but i haven't logged on in like 3 years (!) and didn't read the entire thread.

TCLites
01-11-2006, 03:25 PM
I would agree that you have good reasons. The threads were started to try to get everything on the table so readers could see the pro's and con's as they considered DVC without needing to read through a bunch of arguements. We are DVC owners and it made sense for us, but it is a very personal and individual decision. Intercot help us identify things we needed to consider we had not thought about, both pro and con. Thanks for the valuable contribution to this discussion.

Grim Grinning Marathon Runner
05-11-2006, 12:26 AM
I am an analytical person by nature. I am a Financial Advisor, which actually has no bearing on this discussion, but I have worked in Industrial Engineering and Cost Accounting for well over ten years.

FINANCIALLY, the breakeven point for doing DVC IF YOU STAYED AT THE SAME (Deluxe) resort the same number of days, EVERY YEAR, is around year 10. I did not take into effect interest, compounding, or time value of money. This was a straight calculation of the total dollars spent on each one, in a cumulative manner.

If you stay in a Deluxe one year and a Moderate the next, but still take the same number of days in a resort EVERY YEAR, your breakeven point is somewhere in year 15.

Joining DVC is NOT an investment, as many of you have pointed out. It is a decision to prepay, at today's rates, the next several decades of Disney trips.

You aren't locked in, and you can sell your membership if you want out.

If you can't do the total cost of it upfront, as many have said, I wouldn't think it would be wise to do it. Otherwise, more power to ya! I'm going to join in the next couple of years!
:mickey:

fanofdisney
05-11-2006, 08:55 AM
I am just curious, are the increase in hotel costs in your calculations?

BTW, congratulations on Olivia, I hope everything goes well with the adoption. What a gift! :princess:

Tigerinvestigator
06-11-2006, 05:59 PM
As much as I would love to be a part of "owning" part of the magic at WDW, these are the reasons I have chosen not to buy into the DVC:

1. As I see it, DVC makes it harder to enjoy the diversity of Disney resorts. We would be hard pressed to stay at the Poly, AKL, the moderates and value resorts. We love staying at all of the resorts.

2. The maintenance fees seem to be the real deal killer everytime we do the math. I hear the figure $700- $800 per year used alot. I can do alot for that much money at the other resorts. Even after we have paid off our ownership, we will still be paying that much for rooms. Just doesn't make good financial sense to me.

3. We love the Swan/Dolphin, sometimes get discounts which allow us to get rooms in the $129-$159 range.

4. I , like many others have expressed, have a hard time knowing that eventually all that I have paid for will be lost and given back to Disney, so that they can probably sell it to someone else for 50 more years.

5. I can't get over the fact that the DVC has limited housekeeping service during your stay. It is almost like you are getting penalized for being a member. Meanwhile I am staying at the AKL and have housekeeping taking care of me everyday and anytime that we ask for it.

It seems that I reevaluate the DVC after every trip, and nobody wants it to be a great deal more than I do. I would love to have a money saving, family bonding, investment, that is something that my kids and grandkids would be proud to be given when I die. Chances are if I eat right and live right, I would most likely outlive the DVC and my kids would have to buy their own DVC membership. :thumbsup:

CantonMichigan
06-17-2006, 07:28 PM
I had to chime in after reading Grim Grinner's response. I did a much more detailed analysis taking into consideration time value of money lost, room rate inflation, maintenace fee inflation, tax savings, estimated room rate discounts, and about 4 other variables. My breakeven point? Also 15 years. Maybe I wasted my time.

(Spreadsheet available upon request.)

Disneydizzy
06-29-2006, 09:44 AM
We have also looked into the DVC and decided against it for some of the same reasons Amanda gave.
1. We want to stay where we want to stay, when we want to stay there. I feel the DVC definitely limits your flexibility that I love now.

2. While we seem to go to Disney almost every year, I still enjoy finding the best rate and a new different place to stay and I may want to go elsewhere. I don't want to feel obligated to go here.

3. One thing a salesman said to me, its like upgrading to a suite for the price of a regular room. Thats nice but maybe I don't need a suite and would rather stay at a deluxe instead of a suite and at the busiest time of the year (example).
I want that freedom and don't want to be limited or penalized for doing so. Penalized meaning if I want to stay at the GF I would have to use more points because it is not a DVC resort. I was already willing to pay more to stay there. But with all the money you have to pay upfront and yearly dues and tickets, you have more limitations as a member than I do as a non member.

Dixie Springs
07-13-2006, 01:12 PM
Thanks to all. Great posts, and my empathy to all those tortured souls like me who have contempleted the decision amid the conflict of financial sanity vs. Disney hysteria (I would never, under any circumstances, have considered a time share purchase prior to DVC).

There are some excellent, quantified reasons herein not join. I will identify myself as a fellow non-joiner for many of these reasons. The standouts are the non-lifetime ownership; maintenance/point $ fluctuations; lack of Disney hotel diversity; and the amazing proliferation of kiosks throughout the resort. Why the hard sell? My first DVC sales experience (circa 1992) was pleasant - the second (2 years ago) was desparate and rude.

I have been through this mental excercise many times, and I can honestly say I get further from joining each time the thought enters my daydreams.

luvdiznee
08-04-2006, 10:14 AM
It was interesting to read these posts, because it helped answer some of the questions I've had since I have been contemplating this idea for a while. It was good to find out that staying at a deluxe non dvc will cost me more (even though in points) and that I would not have been getting my moneys worth. A vacation to me is having the daily housekeeping as well as NOT cooking, so not sure if I would have needed a kitchenette. :marg:

Goofster
08-12-2006, 01:08 PM
2. The maintenance fees seem to be the real deal killer everytime we do the math. I hear the figure $700- $800 per year used alot. I can do alot for that much money at the other resorts. Even after we have paid off our ownership, we will still be paying that much for rooms. Just doesn't make good financial sense to me.

3. We love the Swan/Dolphin, sometimes get discounts which allow us to get rooms in the $129-$159 range.



We are contemplating joining sometime next year. We've been researching the pros and cons over the past few months. I agree with these 2 posts of yours, but are you assuming that maintenance fees and room rates will be relatively the same 15-20 years from now after you've paid off the points? I've heard the opposite argument in that the maintenance fees do not increase like the room rates, so you would be paying a lot more than the maintenance fees in the future.

Mushu11756
08-12-2006, 06:35 PM
Don't forget the dues are tax deductable. Room charges are not. I'm sure room's at the Swan and Dolphin will not stay the same 20 years from now. Even if the due's go up for DVC they are still a tax write off. :thumbsup:

bullseye759
09-22-2006, 03:31 PM
Please forgive me because I'm just really learning about DVC. I was told the purchase cost on the low end is $101.00 per point at the min purchase required of 150 points for a total of $15,150.00. Now if I'm correct a weeks vacation at Saratoga is going to chew up more than half of those points, I'm looking at one vacation per year. Plus I have the taxes and other fees per year. Plus i have to purchase airfare and park passes. I'm not sure I see the advantage of joining at all. I don't see too much in the way of breaking even. Did I miss something? Is it just for the people who are wealthy enough to probably pay for a vacation to Disney World whenever they choose anyway? :confused:

dlpmikki
09-22-2006, 07:31 PM
Please forgive me because I'm just really learning about DVC. I was told the purchase cost on the low end is $101.00 per point at the min purchase required of 150 points for a total of $15,150.00. Now if I'm correct a weeks vacation at Saratoga is going to chew up more than half of those points, I'm looking at one vacation per year. Plus I have the taxes and other fees per year. Plus i have to purchase airfare and park passes. I'm not sure I see the advantage of joining at all. I don't see too much in the way of breaking even. Did I miss something? Is it just for the people who are wealthy enough to probably pay for a vacation to Disney World whenever they choose anyway? :confused:
I think you need to post a general question in this forum to get an answer to your points. It is true that it is only accomodation that is prepaid for by buying DVC but the main point is that the cost is locked in for the next few decades (apart from maintenace fees) and you get your points renewed every year. I joined back in 1992 at $51 a point. Ok we are 14 years on but to stay in a hotel costs a huge amount more now than it did then. For me it has been excellent value. Is it today? I don't know and only time will tell.

Sunshine1010
10-16-2006, 02:54 AM
I am one of the few (or at least it seems that way) that looked at this thread to see 'why' I don't need to join DVC. I've also looked at the thread called 'reasons I should join'.....

Well.....I can say that I am confused from reading this thread.

I see good things, I see bad things.......I'm all confused because the 'bad' thread is a little 'back and forth'.

Oh well....

Goes4FastPass
10-18-2006, 10:30 PM
I like the idea of 'belonging' but I don't need an 'apartment' when I'm on vacation.

Even the promotion video at the WDW resorts shows mom taking chocolate chip cookies out of the oven, "What if you want a yummy snack at 2:00am and you don't want to go out?" "I'd call room service!" I answered the TV.

All WDW resorts have drop off laundry service. If my grandbaby yacks on my shirt I'll send it out. I'm on vacation.

If I wanted a home away from home wouldn't I just stay at my home not away from home?

MarkC
11-30-2006, 06:06 PM
Bullseye, I am debating the same thing you are. We have vacationed at Disney 14 times in 12 years. However, my kids are now 17 and 14, and the 17 year old is tired of Disney. Will we still want to go for the next 35 years? Personally I think yes, but I still debate. If you do go about every year and want to stay at a nice resort, you will end up saving several thousand dollars. If you don't, you either lose the points, the value of your purchase, or feel like your forced to go or sell. I think you need to be wealthy anyway to afford several Disney vacations. As other people have pointed out-- it's not so much a financial decision as it is a lifestlye decision. And that's a decision only you and your family can make.

kristnjohn
01-21-2007, 01:14 PM
Great idea for a discussion, we recently just returned and did talk to the DVC sales people there, and were/are considering joining. It's good to hear people with the same thoughts I'm having as to why not to join. Thanks to all who took the time to posted legit reasons as to why not to join.

bkfree
01-23-2007, 01:17 PM
Love this thread and it is just what I needed right now.
We just returned from another trip to and had a fantastic time.The DVC has been very tempting to us. We have two small kids and vacation several times a year,live in South Alabama and within easy driving distance and cheap airfare and have alot of relatives in the Orlando/Tampa/Miami areas. We stayed this time at Yacht Club and are hooked on the Epcot resorts location. Another pull to DVC. We have good friends who are DVC members, go about 3 times a year and love it. But some of the posts here have really made some sence to me. We checked out theSwan and Dolphin, I can get the teacher's Discount and it is just as great a location for less money. So we would be happy there. We also realized this time that while we love Epcot and MGM, AK and MK are quickly becoming no so favs. We love Sea World and are anxious to check out Universal and also want to have more down time at the resort next trips.Having been to Mexico several times and Palm SPrings last year that cost less than our Disney trip, we will probably be eager to share these experiences with our kids. WE do plan plan trips far in advance anyway but I do LOVE the part of the planning that involves getting the best deals etc. I can see where this part of my inate vacationing inner self may not be in tune with DVC. I think on our next trip I will look into renting points. I think it takes a lot of time, reading and several trips to Disney to make a good informed decision abouot DVC, for now I think we will hang on to our $15,000+.
Keep all the thoughts, opinions and facts coming. I also appreciate when someone corrects misinformation or challenges an opinion. Wrong info or facts does not help and if someone doesn't chime in here and correct it for me, how would I know?

Sharon1026
02-26-2007, 04:29 PM
Here's an example that you may want to consider. I used current values for the Board Walk Villas, 1 bdr and average price per point on the resale market.

Invest your money - $18,000 - in a good mutual fund that has a good track record . For this example, I will use Growth Fund of America - symbol AGTHX and I ran a hypothetical for the last 10 years.

Withdraw it at a rate of 8% a year, plus take out a an extra 3% raise each year to include inflation costs (year one you would take out $1440 dollars, year two $1480, etc.) plus add the maintenance fee (if you bought a resale, you could get about 200 points for $18000, the maint. fee would be about $970 a year) you would have a total of $2400/year to spend on your room at Disney during year one. Year two would be about $2480 to spend (plus any increase in maint. fee that you would pay yourself). Basically, you are investing the initial cost of the points and then paying yourself the maint. fee each year - just like you would if you were buying it thru Disney.

If you continued this rate of withdrawal over the course of the past 10 years, your mutual fund is now worth $20,000, which is more money than you've started with, and you have given yourself a raise in your vacation costs to combat inflation.

Currently a week at the boardwalk villas, which uses 200 points for a weekly rate during Jan, Sept, or the first half of Dec. will cost about $2480 when booking thru Disney directly. Yes, taking the same amount of money and investing it then withdrawing it at a rate of 8%, plus paying yourself the maint. fee to go towards the room will get you the same room as if you bought thru the DVC. It doesn't make any sense to invest in the DVC when you do the math, plus you aren't married to a contract with 50 years of maintenance fees. :cool:

If you decide to rent points at $10/point, you could get the entire week for $2000, which leaves you with $440 in your pocket in year one- you can stay longer, use it for tix, food, etc.

Personally, I'd rather have control over my money and vacation options than force myself to be married to the DVC. Plus if I get tired of going to Disney, or we have other plans as my family ages (kids grow!), we have the freedom to use our money for a different trip.
Hope this analysis helps you out. It's a bit difficult without visual aids.

This example doesn't even take into account how much DVC really costs you if you choose to finance it via disney or a resale group.

dlpmikki
02-26-2007, 06:34 PM
Stockmarkets or Disney - both have their risks. It has been a good few years on the stockmarket but that is not always the case. Same for Disney. I bought 15 years ago at $51 a point and could sell now for maybe $30 a point more having had 15 years of vacations. I don't treat it as an investment but finance figures are not always as simple as they seem. Whether the 'return' on points will be as good in ten years time on new points remains to be seen.

Sharon1026
02-26-2007, 07:06 PM
For my example, I chose a fund that has been around for many, many years and ran the hypo for that last 10 years - this includes the last bear market. I am 2k profitable in 10 years and still enjoying the same resorts as you. Yes, your points are worth more now, but as your contract ages and you get nearer your end date, your contract will depreciate in value. Disney controls the prices and people are not going to pay 80 bucks a point (in todays dollars) down the road for a contract that only has 10 or 15 years of life left in it. Where as with a mutual fund investment, it won't be a diminishing return, if managed properly and at the same end point, you will have much more money left with your mutual fund as opposed to having absolutely nothing at the end of your contract.

You only have equity during the time in your contract, and the older your contract is, the less equity you will have.

Plus you have the option to get to your mutual fund money quickly if you have an emergency. Good luck trying to sell your DVC membership later - it's not nearly as liquid.

Now to play devils' advocate - it does depend on how you spend your points.
For example, at Saratoga Springs if you get a Studio and have 200 points, you can stay 5 weekends of 2 night stays a year, during value season. That would cost closer to $3100 out of pocket if you paid outright. However, if you did a one bedroom villa on the weekends, you would only get 5 nights a year (actually at 41 pts. a night, it would be 4 nights and change, but we'll round up and say 5 nights). That would only cost you about $2200 out of pocket.
It really depends on how you use your points. The Studios get you much more mileage than the 1 BR villas do. You can make it competitive, but you have to:
1. use your points wisely
2. do a cost comparison between out of pocket of when you'd go vs. cost of dvc + maint. fees
3. decide if you are going to use it every single year.
I am still on the fence as to whether it's a good way to go... Either way, Haunted Mansion rocks!

Sunshine1010
02-26-2007, 10:40 PM
I wouldn't be able to go that much with my DVC (the 4 or 5 weekends at a Studio)......BECAUSE I live 12 hours away, and I would have to fly...so that would cost me a lot of airfare.

For some people that's good.....for people like us..., well, I just can't use my points like that due to me living far away.

MarkC
02-27-2007, 03:01 PM
One thing that no can predict is what the cost of a stay will be in 30 years, and what Disney will be like at that time. I have no doubt it will still be a great place to visit, but will I be healthy and wealthy enough to afford it? The cost of the BC could be $1,000 per night if you figure 4% inflation. But park tickets and food costs could make a vacation virtually unaffordable for most families by then. If in doubt hold off. Only if you know you can afford it should you purchase.

HockeyKat
02-28-2007, 12:44 PM
I have a spreadsheet that I downloaded somewhere that takes your initial investment and assumes you invest it in a fund that returns an avg of 7%. It then does something very similar to your calculations, by adding annual dues to the fund, and removing vacation money. Comparisons are done with the vacation money and what you might use it for (villas, deluxe, moderate, every other year,etc.). It also accounts for inflation in both dues and room costs, at an average of 3.12% a year.

210 pts at BWV via resale, my base contract for the spreadsheet, gets you one 1 bedroom stay and two studio stays. At BWV current rack rate, that is $5934.37 (w/ tax). At a moderate, assuming a 35% discount, it would be about $2200.

Assuming financing for 5 years at 9.75%, break even is 4 years for the BVW (full rack, highest end comparison). For moderate (at 35% discount, lowest end comparison), you have about 4K left in the fund at the end of the term. Paying all costs up front, break even is 2 yrs for BWV stay and 20 yrs for moderate.

If you only go once a year at moderates, or once every other at deluxes, DVC is likely not for you. If every trip you take is at a value resort, even if you go multiple times a year, and that is your preferred method of vacationing, then DVC is not for you.

If you have young kids and that is your reason for WDW trips, you may want to seriously consider how you and your partner will feel about WDW w/out the kids.

For us, DH prefers luxury vacations. He has been to WDW every year for most of his 36 years on this earth, and refuses to stay in value resorts. We have no children and no plans for any, so our lives will likely not change in that regard (barring any major disaster of course). We drive, and go at least twice a year. Therefore, DVC is for us.

DVC is a very personal decision, and totally based on you and your family, your financial picture, how you vacation, etc.

DISNEYFIX
03-03-2007, 11:43 AM
Question for this side of the issue:

I enjoy the Poly Conceirge Service and will stay there 2 times of the year for at least the next 7 years. Why shouldn't i do the DVC specificly for the high end resorts? Is it going to cost me more than it does already? Thanks for helping the new guy.:thumbsup:

keys2kingdom
03-05-2007, 02:59 PM
Question for this side of the issue:

I enjoy the Poly Conceirge Service and will stay there 2 times of the year for at least the next 7 years. Why shouldn't i do the DVC specificly for the high end resorts? Is it going to cost me more than it does already? Thanks for helping the new guy.:thumbsup:

I would definitely NOT buy DVC if this is what you plan to do. The points costs for the regular hotels are OUTRAGEOUS, a room in the King Kamehameha Club costs 59 points per night Sun-Thurs and 106 points per night Fri-Sat IN VALUE SEASON!!!! In case you don't feel like doing the math that's 507 POINTS FOR A WEEK.

In contrast I can get a 2 bedroom villa at the Beach Club Villas for 270 points A WEEK in Adventure Season (the DVC equivalent of the hotels Value Season).

IMO you'd be wasting your money to buy DVC for this purpose. It's just not a wise way to use the system. Sorry to be so blunt but I'd hate to see you do something foolish with such a large chunk of money.

DISNEYFIX
03-05-2007, 03:11 PM
I would definitely NOT buy DVC if this is what you plan to do. The points costs for the regular hotels are OUTRAGEOUS, a room in the King Kamehameha Club costs 59 points per night Sun-Thurs and 106 points per night Fri-Sat IN VALUE SEASON!!!! In case you don't feel like doing the math that's 507 POINTS FOR A WEEK.

In contrast I can get a 2 bedroom villa at the Beach Club Villas for 270 points A WEEK in Adventure Season (the DVC equivalent of the hotels Value Season).

IMO you'd be wasting your money to buy DVC for this purpose. It's just not a wise way to use the system. Sorry to be so blunt but I'd hate to see you do something foolish with such a large chunk of money.

Yep 100% right we would have to give up this style of stay. We are having a hard time giving up the monorail, conseirge goodies, and daily mousekeeping.......it's a very cozy vacation.
Decision Time.
Thanks for thr reply.

keys2kingdom
03-05-2007, 03:26 PM
Yep 100% right we would have to give up this style of stay. We are having a hard time giving up the monorail, conseirge goodies, and daily mousekeeping.......it's a very cozy vacation.
Decision Time.
Thanks for thr reply.

Why not book a villa for your next vacation to try it out? Moving from 'concierge' to 'do it yourself' might be more than you can bear OR you might find you're OK with it. But never buy a car without a test drive. ;) :thumbsup:

DISNEYFIX
03-05-2007, 03:34 PM
I'm going through the shakesssssssss aleady.......I am narrowing down my Home choice to 2 so that Sept. trip we will look at those then decide. I am sure all the Homes are beautiful, it is just do I want an apartment, that I have to take a bus/boat to get to. I know this is a little dramatic...big baby..:blush:
Thank you.

MR SANDERS
05-11-2007, 10:22 AM
DO NOT buy into DVC if you have to finance it with anyone. If you can't pay cash for a luxury such as this, you should not buy it. It is not an investment, but rather a luxury item that is not for everyone. Instead, begin saving now so you can but later when you can pay cash. I hate seeing people go into debt because they but really cool things that they just can't afford. Disney has great deals at value resort that include tickets to the parks...use them! Disney's value resorts are much better than most of the similarly-priced off-property rooms available.

Cinderelley
05-19-2007, 03:18 AM
We have two timeshares, neither of which are DVC. We spent half the money that would be needed for a Disney timeshare, can trade through II which has Disney timeshares, but we can also trade our points for free stays at the Swan or Dolphin. We own our timeshares for our lifetimes and can pass them on to our children (or whomever else we choose). It is deeded to us. I can't see paying twice as much for something that I would have to give up in 50 or so years.

Marilyn Michetti
05-19-2007, 04:56 AM
We're just plain TOO OLD ! A timeshare, no matter how great, isn't for folks already in their 60's. It can't be passed down to children, and we would never break even.

For kids, just starting out, it sounds great.:cool:

Cinderelley
05-19-2007, 03:30 PM
We're just plain TOO OLD ! A timeshare, no matter how great, isn't for folks already in their 60's. It can't be passed down to children, and we would never break even.

For kids, just starting out, it sounds great.:cool:


Don't let your age deter you if it is what you want. If you get a deeded one, it can be passed down to your children. My mom is in her 60s and loves using a timeshare.

Sunshine1010
05-19-2007, 11:07 PM
I know that this is the post for NOT getting a DVC,....but in response to the couple in their 60's.....

You're right...I wouldn't buy into the DVC at that age either. I'm 40 years old and JUST bought SSR, with a FULL INTENTION of giving it to my 6 yr. old son as a wedding present when the time comes.

I think you made a good decision, but I just wanted you to see ONE of the reasons why I bought into it.......for my son's future vacations with HIS family.

Have a good weekend!!!!!! :-)

sly1
05-28-2007, 06:18 PM
We're just plain TOO OLD ! A timeshare, no matter how great, isn't for folks already in their 60's. It can't be passed down to children, and we would never break even.

For kids, just starting out, it sounds great.:cool:

The disney DVC is a deeded interest for a predetermined length of time. It is unlike most timeshares. Since it is a deeded interest it is transferable to family members via will or can be sold.

iceicebritney
06-12-2007, 03:31 PM
i just dont understand why someone would want to do this - i mean you HAVE to stay at a DVC property if you go to wdw in order to get anything out of your timeshare, correct? what if you want to stay at GF, POLY, or any of the other wonderful resorts on property? i mean honestly, im just a person who doesnt like to do the same thing over and over again (except vacation in wdw 3x a year hehe). when i vacation, i like to stay different places, new places, places i haven't stayed at in a while, etc. what happens if you want to stay somewhere else - can you?? or are you tied in to old key west, ssr, and the rest of the DVCs?

also - they all have kitchens and stuff.... who actually cooks when they go to wdw?? isn't the point of vacation relaxation and enjoying yourself? i certainly wouldn't want to cook on vacation.

my family debated joining the DVC for a long time. we've stayed at the old key west property and the boardwalk property a few times... and everytime it came back to the fact that its not a peice of real estate and you dont own it - you can't just leave your "florida" stuff at the location for the next time you visit...

Zippy_D_DooDah
06-12-2007, 03:54 PM
Sure, you can stay at the CR, GF, and Poly as a DVC member, but you will be using more points to do it. Before we bought in, we were staying at the Contemporary and spending about $3000 per trip and that was one time a year. Since joining DVC, we have "gone home" twice with another trip scheduled for this September. If we were trying to do that the old way, we would be out $9000 bucks now with nothing more to show for it. Now that we are DVC members, we get more points every use year to do it all over again. Two more trips and we will have matched our $15,000 buy in at SSR.

I also like to cook while there if we are not staying in a studio. I don't cook a lot, but a meal or two when we are all too tired to go back out in the evening is very nice. I'm not talking anything ellaborate...just a family-style lasagne or something like that.

lockedoutlogic
06-12-2007, 04:22 PM
i just dont understand why someone would want to do this - i mean you HAVE to stay at a DVC property if you go to wdw in order to get anything out of your timeshare, correct? what if you want to stay at GF, POLY, or any of the other wonderful resorts on property? i mean honestly, im just a person who doesnt like to do the same thing over and over again (except vacation in wdw 3x a year hehe). when i vacation, i like to stay different places, new places, places i haven't stayed at in a while, etc. what happens if you want to stay somewhere else - can you?? or are you tied in to old key west, ssr, and the rest of the DVCs?

also - they all have kitchens and stuff.... who actually cooks when they go to wdw?? isn't the point of vacation relaxation and enjoying yourself? i certainly wouldn't want to cook on vacation.

my family debated joining the DVC for a long time. we've stayed at the old key west property and the boardwalk property a few times... and everytime it came back to the fact that its not a peice of real estate and you dont own it - you can't just leave your "florida" stuff at the location for the next time you visit...


the DVC offers a tremendous savings in the cost of accomodations to it's customers in todays dollars....the savings will only increase over time as inflation and dollar depreciation grows....

That is why DVC "limits" itself...to the DVC units...but what really are they limiting?

GF...POLY....and Contemp....and that may not be for long.

All of the other deluxe locations will have DVC units onsite starting in August this year with the opening of the first section of Animal Kingdom Lodge...and to be quite frank...there's nothing that makes the GF or poly any better than Y&B, Boardwalk, Animal Kingdom, and Wilderness Lodge...

The main appeals of the older MK area resorts are the monorail and a view of the park....which are nice...but very superficial things that really don't make or break a trip to WDW...you wold forget them quickly watching a giraffe feeding 10 feet from you at Animal Kingdom...or floating in the lazy river at Stormalong Bay....

DVC is a long term committment...and yes, like all decisions...there are tradeoffs when you do something like this. You do limit your choices to a certain extent...but you also guarantee that you will never pay anywhere near the rack rate at a deluxe hotel and have your choice of booking 7 different locations...at anytime (when available)...for varying lengths of stay....without actual money changing hands...no visa bill at the end of the month....

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that since you've just finished your undergrad based on the "74x times since 1983"....and I'm gonna guess that you weren't actually footing the bill for many of those trips. While I congratulate you and your family on all your successes (an average of 3+ visits per year indicates a certain financial standing)....it is worth noting that a person's financial situation will go through many ups and downs in life....especially for those of us in our 20's (still have a few days left myself). But to pay the rack rate for WDW hotels repeatedly over time gets old really really fast (as I found...a four or five day trip was costing me over $2000.00 each staying at deluxes...my last DVC trip with annual passes and dining plan cost somewhere around 1000).....I once thought vacation club was a ridiculous concept (during my college days)....and boy, was I wrong. It is a sound investment, not only financially, but also in securing trips to Disney for your current/ and/or future family and friends.

As far as the kitchen...you don't have to use it and don't really pay anything for it...and as far as having your "stuff" there....I don't really think having "stuff" from home is really an appeal to vacation club members...and they have plenty of malls in florida if you really need something (i.e. it need not come from king of prussia)

Take it from a fellow alum....if you got used to DVC, you would enjoy it as much as Cafe 210, the Creamery, and Yuengling put together :thumbsup:

Ian
06-12-2007, 04:27 PM
i just dont understand why someone would want to do this - i mean you HAVE to stay at a DVC property if you go to wdw in order to get anything out of your timeshare, correct? what if you want to stay at GF, POLY, or any of the other wonderful resorts on property? i mean honestly, im just a person who doesnt like to do the same thing over and over again (except vacation in wdw 3x a year hehe). when i vacation, i like to stay different places, new places, places i haven't stayed at in a while, etc. what happens if you want to stay somewhere else - can you?? or are you tied in to old key west, ssr, and the rest of the DVCs?Well the truth is, if that's what's important to you then DVC isn't for you.

It's definitely not for everyone. If you want to pay extra for the flexibility, then don't join. If you're looking to get more value for your vacation dollar and you're willing to give up some of the flexibility to get it, then DVC is for you.

Becky'sMom
07-23-2007, 07:24 PM
Just to throw another figure out there....
let's say you didn't take your 16,000 in cash and buy DVC with it, but instead, invested it in a half-way decent mutual fund and received an annual return of 8%....
let's say you took out your return each year, left the principal for future income...
you'd have $1,280 - plus the $700 or so you would have spent on annual dues. That's around $2,000 to spend on your vacation as you see fit and...if you ever needed that $16,000 for something really important, it would be there for you.
Having said that, I may very well wind up buying DVC!
Love Disney!
Lauren

teamblackwell
08-11-2007, 01:29 AM
Don't let your age deter you if it is what you want. If you get a deeded one, it can be passed down to your children. My mom is in her 60s and loves using a timeshare.

Who wants pass down a $800 annual bill for an inheritance. Here kids, i'm dead, so now pay my maintence fees.
This may be a litle harsh, but true.

mprewitt
08-11-2007, 11:16 AM
Who wants pass down a $800 annual bill for an inheritance. Here kids, i'm dead, so now pay my maintence fees.
This may be a litle harsh, but true.

Actually, the kids can turn around and sell it, and make some cash.

Horizon93
08-11-2007, 12:26 PM
Or they can have years of great vacations for the price of dues which should be quite a bargain!

Ian
08-13-2007, 11:07 AM
Who wants pass down a $800 annual bill for an inheritance. Here kids, i'm dead, so now pay my maintence fees.
This may be a litle harsh, but true.Hmmm ... if my Mother passed away and left me the opportunity to vacation for 20 days a year in Disney World for $800, I'd be pretty thrilled.

Call me crazy ...

Sunshine1010
08-13-2007, 03:59 PM
We have purchased DVC. And one of the reasons was to give it to my son when he married. If we don't do that, he'll get it in the Will.

He's only 6 yrs old, but when he is old enough, we'll explain that there is a yearly fee....so it won't surprise him.

But, we're also leaving him enough money in other investments to where 800.00 won't be anything to worry about.

DizneeRX
08-13-2007, 04:05 PM
Before we bought in, we were staying at the Contemporary and spending about $3000 per trip and that was one time a year. Since joining DVC, we have "gone home" twice with another trip scheduled for this September. If we were trying to do that the old way, we would be out $9000 bucks now with nothing more to show for it. Now that we are DVC members, we get more points every use year to do it all over again. Two more trips and we will have matched our $15,000 buy in at SSR.

I know you posted this a while ago, but I was curious about something - Do you really spend $3000 per trip on your room at Disney? Or was $3000 the total spent for your trip?

Horizon93
08-13-2007, 04:16 PM
I know you posted this a while ago, but I was curious about something - Do you really spend $3000 per trip on your room at Disney? Or was $3000 the total spent for your trip?
Staying ar a deluxe resort could easilyt add up to that total on one trip.

DizneeRX
08-14-2007, 02:49 PM
Staying ar a deluxe resort could easilyt add up to that total on one trip.

Well, of course it could. I asked if the room actually did add up to that amount.

crazykids
08-14-2007, 03:35 PM
The room alone for our upcoming trip to the Poly is over $3000, that's why we'll be taking the dvc tour while there!

DizneeRX
08-14-2007, 05:10 PM
The room alone for our upcoming trip to the Poly is over $3000, that's why we'll be taking the dvc tour while there!


Thanks for the info!

Ian
08-14-2007, 05:59 PM
The last time I priced out trips, here's what I got.

The quotes were for 9 nights, on the MYW Plus Dining plan (which included 1 day hopper tickets).

AKL Standard View - $1,844.90

Poly MK View - $3,110.48

WL Woods View - $1,971.44

BC Standard View - $2,320.73

These were all specials that ran in early May, which is a slower time of the year. You can see it isn't out of the question that a week at a deluxe during a busy period would cost in excess of $3,000.

KevGuy
08-15-2007, 10:36 PM
Don't join so I have more opportunities to get the reservations I want via DVC lmao!!!:thedolls:

Goes4FastPass
08-16-2007, 09:42 AM
Don't join so I have more opportunities to get the reservations I want via DVC lmao!!!:thedolls:Did I just hear, "Don't join because I already have to mark calendars and plan months ahead and hope I'm lucky enough to "have more opportunities to get the reservations I want"??

As a potential DVC member, I find it discouraging to read threads that say...


"Whoo Hoo! We're so lucky!
We got Easter week!!
:cloud9: :woohoo::yay:

...implying that after a family spends thousands of dollars to become "Welcome Home VIPs", they get to treat vacation planning like they're trying to get breakfast at CRT.

KevGuy
08-16-2007, 03:52 PM
It was a sarcastic joke thus the devil like icon because I can't think of many reasons not to join, apparently you have never seen them before. :idea: You can infer whatever you like but please don't put words in my mouth that is NOT what I said. :nono: You'll pretty much get whatever you want at your home resort booking at 11 months, but at the 7 month mark for ressies you can book at any resort and so can anyone else so it is pretty much the luck of the draw depending on what you want and where, exactly like CRT. The early bird catches the worm is a good analagy for booking at resorts other than your home resort. Older, smaller DVC resorts that are popular only have so much to go around for non-home members. Higher demand times such as holidays cost higher in points too in case you didn't know. Have you read anything about DVC at all? Pretty much the same as any other points based timeshare system such as Mariott for instance, except much better IMO. I highly recommend DVC it is fabulous as far as I am concerned. Most of the time when you see posts about things like Easter such as you stated above they are last minute reservations a couple of months out from their ressie date, but as you have even stated they got them! If you cannot plan ahead 7-11 months then DVC is probably not for you. I suggest you read up on it and get better informed or perhaps call a DVC rep and ask some questions instead of making inferences from internet message boards to guide your financial decisions. Especially if you are thinking of buying into DVC at substantial cost. Honestly for me and my situation I can't find any reasons not to join, we love it but that is just me.:mickey::thumbsup:

teamblackwell
08-25-2007, 12:52 AM
Hmmm ... if my Mother passed away and left me the opportunity to vacation for 20 days a year in Disney World for $800, I'd be pretty thrilled.

Call me crazy ...

OK, your crazy,
to think everyone in America wants to take DVC vacations.

Horizon93
08-25-2007, 10:19 AM
Don't they?

J.T.Toad
08-25-2007, 10:30 AM
My Home Resort Is SSR, I have been a member going on three years and I have never stepped foot on the Grounds. I purchased in to SSR for the main reason it had the longest contract. I wanted to leave it to my two girls so they will be able to afford to visit when rack rates reach a price that will be unaffordable to most families
.
As Far as booking at a different resort at the 7 month window.I thought I could expand a little on Kevs statement.


You'll pretty much get whatever you want at your home resort booking at 11 months, but at the 7 month mark for ressies you can book at any resort and so can anyone else so it is pretty much the luck of the draw depending on what you want and where,

The seven-month window

For the past three years I have booked rooms at the most popular of the resorts, at a busiest time of the year, ( the food and wine festival).

Keep in mind most all of people who wish to book a room in their home resort will do so in their 11 month window. They realize that once they reach 7 months out they will be competing with DVCers from other resorts.

One day before the 7-month window I called guest relations and checked the availability of the two resorts I was interested in, namely the BWV and the BCV. I would see which resort had the fewer days missing. This year it was BCV missing only one day and the BWV had that day available.


The early bird catches the worm is a good analogy for booking at resorts other than your home resort.

How true this statement is.

We started making my reservations at exactly 7 months from our checkout date. We would call daily at exactly at 9:00 am when guest services opens. We would make my reservation 1 day at a time. When we reached the missing day we made that reservation over at the BWV. We were sure that because we were early on the wait list for that day There shouldn’t be a problem. Sure enough with in a week we received our missing day at the BCV's

This made it three years in a row we were able to make our reservations in the Resort of our choice, during a busy time of year, at the 7 month window.

Hope this strategy helps others in there quest for the resort of there choice.

Good Luck
JT

Goes4FastPass
08-27-2007, 05:24 PM
...they will be able to afford to visit when rack rates reach a price that will be unaffordable to most families...
...The seven-month window...we were early on the wait list for that day ...
These phrases give me pause along with "if my Mother passed away and left me the opportunity to vacation for 20 days a year in Disney World for $800, I'd be pretty thrilled."

Disney paints a dire picture of ever increasing rack rates and advises people to "lock in" their vacation costs. Maybe DVC members can lock in much of their lodging costs and there are probably contractual limitations as to how much maintenance fees can be increased over the years. What DVC members have no control over is all of the other costs of a Disney vacation.

The DDP could change greatly (it just did) or go away altogether. DME may go from free to low cost to too darned expensive. EMH could could go back to being a costs extra thing. When it comes to theme park and water park admissions it's like Mouseketeer Suprise Day, "Anything could happen - and it usually does."

Those of us who opt out of becoming Welcome Home Members can look at changing vacation values at WDW and decide, trip by trip, if we want to contine to be frequent (Dumbo) flyers.

DVC members are so sure that WDW will be their vacation of choice for decades to come that they are willing to pre-pay a large fee to lock their room rate. Isn't this the point where someone sings, "A dream is a wish your heart makes..."

As far as "11 month window" and "7 month window" and "wait list" goes, I don't normally associate those expressions with real estate ownership.

Whoever said put the bucks in a mutual fund and spend the dividends was speaking my language.

dlpmikki
08-27-2007, 05:44 PM
You are not wrong. I locked in 15 years ago when it was a lot cheaper to do so. Will the same still be true in 15 years for those joining now? I don't know. I do know that I could still sell mine for than I paid for it and I have had all those years of vacations.

J.T.Toad
08-27-2007, 11:15 PM
I did not wish for any one think that my previous post was a personal attack aimed at Goesforfastpass. There for I am deleting it. I apologize to Goesforfastpass and anyone else that I might have offended.

Sincerely
JT

Goes4FastPass
08-28-2007, 07:43 PM
I'm going to drop out of this topic.

There are obviously thousands of very satisfied DVC members who will have years of quality time with their loved ones, many of whom will have some or many of those years even after the original purchaser departs.

I assume anyone contemplating a DVC purchase has carefully weighed the pros and cons. A back and forth discussion, "Why I'm glad I did" answered by "Why I'm glad I didn't" answered by, etc. etc. doesn't change minds.

...and I didn't mean to insult anyone either. I like 'debating' but sometimes I 'debate' too much.

KevGuy
08-30-2007, 01:02 AM
Yes, you do don't you.:thumbsup:

bjlaac
08-31-2007, 03:58 PM
We looked into DVC beginning with OKW in the early 90's and SSR as recently as last year. For us, we decided not to join for the following reasons. I appologize if this is a little long winded but it presents a different point of view.

First let me say we prefer the Moderate resorts. We mostly only sleep and take pool breaks there but otherwise are at the parks or elsewhere. We could not justify, or really afford $400+ a night for the only hotels we consider deluxe Grand Floridian, Poly or Contemporary.

In 1997 we paid $89 per night at thne CBR and in 2006 we paid $119 at POFQ. This represents an increase of about 33%-34% over a ten year period. If that trend held, at the end of 50 years (Life of SSR) we would be paying $508 per night. Currently there are deals at the moderates for $105, but lets stick with the 33% increase for now. That means on average we expected to pay $277 per night for 50 years adding tax it could be easily $300. For sake of arguement, lets use $350.

Reales at SSR are going for about $83 per point and the typical purchase (because of Disney Minimum) is 150 points. Total cost $12,500. What most people fail to consider in their calculation is the present value of money. If you take the same $12,500 and put in a 5% CD for 50 years, the $12,500 is now worth $151,000, adjusting for taxes, about $115,000.Thats what the 150 points really cost over the life of the "vacation"

Another item is maintenance. On average DVC maintenance goes up 3%-5% every year. The last two full year at SSR it averaged 3.7%. By using an averages growth of 3.5% the maintenance costs for 150 points will grow from $618 in 2007 to $3,335 in the last year of the DVC contract. Over 50 years you would have paid $81,000 in maintenance fees.

In total, the 50 years of DVC will cost you $196,000 ($115,000+$81,000) or $3,920 per year. The 150 points will get you at most 10 nights in a studio DVC at SSR. This averages to $392 per night.

Reason number one why we did not buy DVC is its not cost effective. It costs more.

Reason number two, if it costs more what reason is there to be a member. Is service better, we felt no, especially with maid service less than every day. Is it a deluxe resort, I don't want to argue the point, but as I mentioned before, "we" do not feel that way.

In essence, we felt we were paying more for what we could book yearly and therefore saw no reason to lock in the same vacation for 50 years.

That's our reasons, others I'm sure believe the its a no brainer to join. I present this as it was asked for in the thread- "what reasons are there for not joining DVC".

dlpmikki
08-31-2007, 05:06 PM
MODERATOR ALERT

Please remember this topic is meant to be for people to give their reasons why NOT to join DVC. It is not meant to be for a general discussion / disagreement of/with those reasons.

We have been getting into discussion mode lately which makes it much more difficult for people to easily read reasons not to join. There is a separate topic for reasons TO join.

Thank you! :)

CaptainSad
08-31-2007, 10:15 PM
The DW and I looked into DVC about five years ago. We took the sales pitch and came away with one big problem. At the end of the contract you own nothing. If you don't go to WDW yearly you are wasting your money. Now I have a time share I got into 3 years ago. It is Wyndham Resorts. Guess what? If you go by The Caribbean resort you will see a new complex being built. Wyndham Bonnett Creek. It has four of the seven towers built and occupied right now. It is the first outside TS resort allowed on Disney property. The good thing with Wyndham is if you buy the points, you own a piece of the property. I am part owner of Bonnett Creek, Nashville & Atlantic City. It is a point system which is a million times better then owning a week at some resort that is sold out. I can get into any of the Wyndham resorts with a quick phone call. Being a Platinum member I can get in any, 30 day's in advance. I really do think DVC is not a good investment for your money.

Minnesota Dis
09-05-2007, 11:23 AM
Sorry this is so long but I wanted to point out a few things. While I do have to agree with many of the reasons here not to buy I think bjlaac is forgetting that most people do not put their vacation money into a CD each year and gain interest on this money. To compare it this way you must also take the money you would have spent on vacation and add up your lost income. If you never go, then of course you could have invested that money but you may come out the same in the end as owning.

I own points at BWV and can also rent those points each year for $10/$12 point if I decide not to use them. My maintanance fees are approx. $4.50 a point so I would make a 5-7% profit or more if I really wanted to pursue the rental market.

I purchased our contract for $19,710 (270 points). I if had invested that money at 5% instead of buying I would have made approx. $970 a year. However, if I rent the points at $11 X 270, I would have $2,970. $2,970 minus $1200 main. fees, minus 970 lost 5% interest, equals $800 in profit plus I did not lose the $970 in interest.

Because of selling excess points I have never paid maintainence fees and have gone every year for the past 5 staying in studios, 1 bdrms and 2 bdrms. depending on our needs.

We are now actually looking at selling our larger contract due to less frequent trips to WDW and in the end I will have paid very little for those five years of vacations (possibly made a profit). We will keep the small 60 pt. contract and just bank, borrow and transfer.

Granted, values will change if you borrow the money, make better investments, etc. but I think mostly it's a wash. I can sell my contract but you can't sell the vacation you already took.

I will always be on the fence as far as numbers and can look at it from both sides. It can be a good value but it all depends on the economy, your vacation habits, cost per point, etc. Vacation is only a good value for the soul, not so great for the pocketbook.

thrillme
09-05-2007, 01:08 PM
Reading these posts I have a little bit of conflict that I do not understand.

Can you pass your DVC ownership down like a normal timeshare or is it absorbed when the original owners pass on. Earlier posts mentioned passing it onto their 6 year old when he marries...others have indicated that it cannot be willed...I'm just curious.

Personally the DVC isn't for me simply because I prefer to stay at the Value resorts/Pop. I like to stay on property solely for the "late nights", free parking or the frequent shuttles...other than that...the resort is just a place for me to sleep for a bit. The ONLY time I ever pay big bucks for a room is when I go to Universal.

dlpmikki
09-05-2007, 06:44 PM
Reading these posts I have a little bit of conflict that I do not understand.

Can you pass your DVC ownership down like a normal timeshare or is it absorbed when the original owners pass on. Earlier posts mentioned passing it onto their 6 year old when he marries...others have indicated that it cannot be willed...I'm just curious.

Personally the DVC isn't for me simply because I prefer to stay at the Value resorts/Pop. I like to stay on property solely for the "late nights", free parking or the frequent shuttles...other than that...the resort is just a place for me to sleep for a bit. The ONLY time I ever pay big bucks for a room is when I go to Universal.

It can be willed but it is only for a finite length of time eg until 2042, 2057 etc. Other timeshares can be for ever in theory.

Sunshine1010
09-06-2007, 09:08 AM
I am the one who stated that I was going to pass the DVC ownership onto my 6 year old son.

.........YES, you CAN 'pass it on'. I've done that. It was one of my deciding factors to purchase the DVC. I purchased it basically when I turned 40. I doubt I'll be going to disney in 2054. My investments will pay for the fees after I 'give this to him', and if I am still alive, then I will more than likely pay 1/2 or all of the fees associated with this until I do pass away.

.........YES, I knew that the timeshare wasn't forever and ever and ever and ever. It is good until 2054. I have never looked at it as an investments. My investments make me money ---- this only SAVES me money for future vacations.

To me, saving money for almost 50 years is a smart decision because we KNEW we'd be going to Disney every year. And, if my son doesn't want to go to Disney every year, then he'll have the option of exchanging it, or saving the points for the next year, or giving it to someone.

Owning a DVC is a personal decision. People will justify 'for and against'. Each way has good points. You just have to do what is right for you.

I've heard someone say last year that if you truly don't want to buy ----- you'll somehow crunch the numbers in the favor of not buying. And...if you DO want to buy, you'll crunch the numbers to make it justifiable. he he

Make sense?

It was a good decision for us. My Personal Financial Investor made me MAKE SURE I realized it wasn't something to 'make' money, and he was wanting to keep the money and have it grow for us.....but this is like a BIG
'coupon' for us. We'll be going to Disney for years......so it makes sense to us.

Good luck!!!

bjlaac
09-07-2007, 04:54 PM
[QUOTE=Minnesota Dis;1408761]Sorry this is so long but I wanted to point out a few things. While I do have to agree with many of the reasons here not to buy I think bjlaac is forgetting that most people do not put their vacation money into a CD each year and gain interest on this money. To compare it this way you must also take the money you would have spent on vacation and add up your lost income. ........QUOTE]

We can work numbers anyway you like but i did not suggest people would be saving their vacation money in a CD. In order to buy into DVC, my example assumed you would take the $12,500 out of an existing funds that should already be invested, and therefore, you would in fact be loosing interest from day one. To finance the DVC, the $12,500 would become almost $20,000 in 10 years at 10% (the current Timeshare rates). The calculations would be worse.

My example always assumed there would be comparable vacations paid out of pocket for the non DVC member. Under the best scenario, the DVC is paying a premium for their resort over non DVC members. Believe me, I find nothing wrong with that. If that is what you choose to do, great!

My point is that the vacation costs are comparable, and if the numbers were reversed, where the non DVC person was paying the premium, my position would be the same.

a) I'm not saving significant money
b) There's no daily maid service
c) It's not a deluxe resort for me
d) I'm locked into the same vacation for 50 years.

Like I said in the original post, that is why I did not join.

lockedoutlogic
09-08-2007, 01:44 AM
[QUOTE=CaptainSad;1404772] The good thing with Wyndham is if you buy the points, you own a piece of the property. I am part owner of Bonnett Creek, Nashville & Atlantic City. It is a point system which is a million times better then owning a week at some resort that is sold out. [QUOTE]

I know some people who have bought into Wyndham...as well as Marriot and Starwood....and they all seem to like it well enough. So i'm not doubting your satisfaction in your choice.

But based on the excerpts from your post listed above...I have to ask: What sales pitch did you sit through about Disney?

You do own a percentage of the property....you don't have a specific week...and Disney was the second system to use points...trailing only Marriott...I believe....

The only thing you have there that is true is that your contract expires....which could be an issue to many....but make no mistake....no 15K timeshare bought now is going to be worth some gaudy number to be willed 60 years from now...It's just not the nature of the beast.

Frankly, alot of your shortcomings that you list to Disney don't actually exist...most notably the point system and the lack of unit "ownership"....

As far as DVC being a good purchase for the money....all DVC points that have been purchased have increased in resale value....or at least 95% of them...if that trend holds....it would be one of the most solid investments you can make....use it for as long as you want...then sell it for more than you initially paid.

dlpmikki
09-08-2007, 02:25 AM
MODERATOR ALERT

This is a repeated post because the last one was at the bottom of the previous page and I suspect some of the recent posters have not seen it. Please follow these guidelines!

Please remember this topic is meant to be for people to give their reasons why NOT to join DVC. It is not meant to be for a general discussion / disagreement of/with those reasons.

We have been getting into discussion mode lately which makes it much more difficult for people to easily read reasons not to join. There is a separate topic for reasons TO join.

Thank you! :)

DVC Mike
09-08-2007, 11:22 AM
Please remember this topic is meant to be for people to give their reasons why NOT to join DVC. It is not meant to be for a general discussion / disagreement of/with those reasons.

We have been getting into discussion mode lately which makes it much more difficult for people to easily read reasons not to join. There is a separate topic for reasons TO join.


So one group can post their perceived pros, another group can post their perceived cons, but where do we get to discuss opinions and point out any misinformation that might be posted in either section?

It seems it would make sense to merge the two postings into a "Why DVC does or doesn't make sense for me".

lockedoutlogic
09-08-2007, 03:07 PM
So one group can post their perceived pros, another group can post their perceived cons, but where do we get to discuss opinions and point out any misinformation that might be posted in either section?

It seems it would make sense to merge the two postings into a "Why DVC does or doesn't make sense for me".

I agree...I wouldn't have said anything if it hadn't been errors presented as fact.....If someone is seriously considering DVC and sees a post that says they are tied to a week and that other systems that use "a point system" are better...then isn't it a responsible thing to point out that those are not the facts?

I'm not disputing anyone else's opinions...they are free to them....just incorrect "facts"

dlpmikki
09-09-2007, 02:54 PM
The problems in the past have been one persons fact has been another persons misinformation and vice versa and this has led to discussions / arguments with no conclusions. Not helpful and distracting from the meat of the topic.

Before we had these topics every time someone asked a question about whether to join DVC they were jumped on by people from both sides and there was a lot of repetition. This way is not perfect but it is a lot better than what we had before. We kept the topics seperate to avoid that ongoing discussion / argument between the two sides as it tended to get too heated.

If there is a genuine discussion point then there is no reason why it can't be raised in a new topic post on it's own.

Minnesota Dis
09-10-2007, 02:48 AM
[
We can work numbers anyway you like but i did not suggest people would be saving their vacation money in a CD. In order to buy into DVC, my example assumed you would take the $12,500 out of an existing funds that should already be invested, and therefore, you would in fact be loosing interest from day one. To finance the DVC, the $12,500 would become almost $20,000 in 10 years at 10% (the current Timeshare rates). The calculations would be worse.

My example always assumed there would be comparable vacations paid out of pocket for the non DVC member. Under the best scenario, the DVC is paying a premium for their resort over non DVC members. Believe me, I find nothing wrong with that. If that is what you choose to do, great!

My point is that the vacation costs are comparable, and if the numbers were reversed, where the non DVC person was paying the premium, my position would be the same.

a) I'm not saving significant money
b) There's no daily maid service
c) It's not a deluxe resort for me
d) I'm locked into the same vacation for 50 years.

Like I said in the original post, that is why I did not join.[/QUOTE]


I hope you don't think I was arguing with you.. sorry :( I see both sides and actually have considered selling one of our contracts.

Also, moderators I hope I didn't break any rules by posting on this side. I just read a post that I thought I could give a comparison on from my personal experience and thought it might help someone along the line. I know I read until I was blue when we were looking to purchase!

I guess what I was saying is at this point we would actually make more money on DVC than we would have by putting our money in a CD five years ago. I think a realistic CD return is 6% and not 10%. I won't crunch the numbers because it has been done over and over. We purchased our contracts with banked points which we rented and have also rented out additional points totalling over $7,000. We have more than covered our dues and could sell our contracts for more than we purchased.

We took those vacations at a deluxe resort which I know does not have daily housekeeping, etc. However, a 2 bedroom with a balcony does beat a moderate every time for me and we can pay for daily housekeeping. Also, my teens are now in the adult category so I would pay even more for a moderate room.

But.... the point costs are higher now, dues are higher, etc.

Again, I think it is a wash as far as money if you do it right. I also think you can work the numbers for or against but thought I would give a comparison from my own personal experience. I think there are good reasons to buy and good reasons why not to buy.

If you are borrowing money, do not want to lock in, want daily maid service, etc. do not buy as it is not worth it. Also, I think it is very easy to be taken in by the thought of owning a piece of Disney (we were taken in)... really Disney owns your money. Also, anything can happen that would change this scenario dramatically in terms of our economy.

bjlaac
09-11-2007, 02:44 PM
Minnesota, I think we are in agreement.

And no, I didn't take your post as an arguement and I hope you didn't take my reply as an arguement either.

I think it is a wash and it comes down to personal preference. There are a lot of reason to become a DVC member and you, as well as others, have made that point clear. In keeping with the topics desire for reasons, I was just pointing out "my" reasons not to join.

If you read between the lines, you can see we looked several times into the DVC, looking for a reason to join. We decided not to mainly because it locked us into the same vacation for many years. As we both point out, its probably a wash whether you join and go every year or rent points vs going to the resorts only in the years you choose to go.

It ultimately depends on what you desire for your vacations.

Tinkitude
10-09-2007, 02:01 PM
It is crazy expensive. Only somebody who could actually afford the DVC type accommodations already would be able to afford the join. It is a shame there isn't something geared more towards every level of Disney vacationer.

Ian
10-09-2007, 02:15 PM
It is crazy expensive. Only somebody who could actually afford the DVC type accommodations already would be able to afford the join. It is a shame there isn't something geared more towards every level of Disney vacationer.I think it depends on what you define as "crazy expensive?"

I, personally, thought it was very affordable. If you spread the cost of our 160 points out over the 50 years or so we'll be able to use them it comes out to around $300 a year.

Factor in even $700 a year for maintenance fees (which is a good bit more than we pay now) and that sure seems like a bargain to me?

kbean
10-22-2007, 10:05 PM
Sounds like a waste of $$$ and a headache.

DVC Mike
10-22-2007, 10:28 PM
Sounds like a waste of $$$ and a headache.

Here is a link to one of the many financial comparisons available:

http://dvcnews.com/index.php?option=com_easyfaq&task=view&id=55&Itemid=148

DizneeRX
10-25-2007, 08:17 PM
Wow, the DVC owners seem to get pretty offended when someone posts a negative opinion in this thread...

magicofdisney
11-10-2007, 03:43 PM
I think it depends on what you define as "crazy expensive?"

I, personally, thought it was very affordable. If you spread the cost of our 160 points out over the 50 years or so we'll be able to use them it comes out to around $300 a year.

Factor in even $700 a year for maintenance fees (which is a good bit more than we pay now) and that sure seems like a bargain to me?
So you're paying $1000 a year to stay how long? At roughly the equivalent of a deluxe resort?

I'm thinking DVC is not for us. I'm more interested in going as often as possible and I don't mind staying at a value resort. In fact, that's what allows me to go as often as I do. With our last set of season passes we spent over 35 nights at Disney last year. Including those season passes, we spent right around $5300 last year. This is for a family of 6 (including a toddler).

Ian
11-10-2007, 06:21 PM
So you're paying $1000 a year to stay how long? At roughly the equivalent of a deluxe resort?First off, let's be clear ... I don't currently pay $700 a year in maintenance fees. I pay about $450 a year. That $700 assumes a massive, unprecedented increase in maintenance costs. My actual total cost is really around $750 a year.

Anyway ... it obviously depends on when you go, but roughly 160 should get us about 10 nights worth of vacation in a 1BR. Maybe a little less.

However, a 1BR villa is basically the equivalent to a suite in a deluxe resort. Last time I checked, they went for somewhere around $500 a night minimum. So my "$1,000" a year buys me roughly $5,000 worth of vacation. And that's at today's prices.


With our last set of season passes we spent over 35 nights at Disney last year. Including those season passes, we spent right around $5300 last year. This is for a family of 6 (including a toddler).Well as you can see above, we get about 10 nights for our $1,000 a year. I'm not sure how much season passes are (I assume you're a FL resident?), but let's say they cost you $1,300. That means you spent 4 grand to stay 35 nights in value accomodations.

If you extrapolate my costs out, $1,000 for 10 nights = 40 nights for $4,000. And that would be in a 1 BR suite. Who got the better deal? Not to mention you'd have saved on your passes, too.

And, of course, this isn't even factoring in the 500 lb elephant in the room which is inflation. Even assuming my annual maintenance fees nearly double from their current rates, 25 years from now I'll still be paying $1,000 a year for those 10 nights vacation.

But how much will your 35 nights be costing you?

magicofdisney
11-10-2007, 09:25 PM
If you extrapolate my costs out, $1,000 for 10 nights = 40 nights for $4,000. And that would be in a 1 BR suite. Who got the better deal? Not to mention you'd have saved on your passes, too.

And, of course, this isn't even factoring in the 500 lb elephant in the room which is inflation. Even assuming my annual maintenance fees nearly double from their current rates, 25 years from now I'll still be paying $1,000 a year for those 10 nights vacation.

But how much will your 35 nights be costing you?
The problem I see is that you don't have enough points to stay 40 nights a year. It appears your points limit you. Unless you want to pay OOP to stay longer, but then your math goes out the window.

I understand about inflation. Maybe I'll change my mind later, but I still feel I'm getting the better deal right now because I have more freedom and flexibility. And yes, I'm a FL resident, so quick trips are something I look forward to and count on. :mickey:

Ian
11-11-2007, 07:01 PM
The problem I see is that you don't have enough points to stay 40 nights a year. It appears your points limit you. Unless you want to pay OOP to stay longer, but then your math goes out the window.:mickey:You're missing the point (pun intended) ...

I don't have enough points to stay 40 nights a year, but for the money you're currently spending on your vacations you could.

DizneeRX
11-11-2007, 10:51 PM
So my "$1,000" a year buys me roughly $5,000 worth of vacation.

If you extrapolate my costs out, $1,000 for 10 nights = 40 nights for $4,000. And that would be in a 1 BR suite. Who got the better deal? Not to mention you'd have saved on your passes, too.

And, of course, this isn't even factoring in the 500 lb elephant in the room which is inflation.

Nice spin but...
40 nights for $4000 - this is just the maintenance and other fees. You forgot to add the cost of the points you would need to buy - roughly $64,000 (that 800 lb gorilla seems to have squashed your little, tiny elephant....)

And you did not buy vacations, you bought the right to use a hotel room. Your costs for transportation, entertainment / park passes and food, which would then make it a vacation, are certainly not included in your DVC membership.

Hammer
11-12-2007, 01:17 AM
Nice spin but...
40 nights for $4000 - this is just the maintenance and other fees. You forgot to add the cost of the points you would need to buy - roughly $64,000 (that 800 lb gorilla seems to have squashed your little, tiny elephant....)

And you did not buy vacations, you bought the right to use a hotel room. Your costs for transportation, entertainment / park passes and food, which would then make it a vacation, are certainly not included in your DVC membership.

Why do you think he will need to buy more points? One of the benefits to DVC is that the points value for rooms do not fluctuate. Now the dates for the various rate seasons may change, but a studio at SSR in that resort's value season will cost 97 points and that value will not change. While maintenance fees will rise they have not risen more than a few cents per year, with one year the rate actually decreased.

Accommodations are only one cost in a vacation, but it is probably one of the most costly. I'm looking into DVC as I want to have a certain level of accommodations when I make my yearly visits to WDW. Value resorts do not give me the level of comfort and amenities I want from a vacation.

Ian
11-12-2007, 07:42 AM
Nice spin but...
40 nights for $4000 - this is just the maintenance and other fees. You forgot to add the cost of the points you would need to buy - roughly $64,000 (that 800 lb gorilla seems to have squashed your little, tiny elephant....)Actually, the problem is you failed to read my original post where I explained that the cost of my points was, in fact, included in my calculation.

My points are good for about 45 years ... actually a little more, but I'll round down ... our 160 points cost us a little under $15,000. Divide $15,000 by 45 and you get $334. Add to that my current yearly maintenance fee of $450 and my annual cost is around $800 a year for 10 nights in a suite.

And while you're correct that this only covers the room, when you factor in that they were staying at a value resort and I'm in a 1BR suite, I'm pretty sure it more than balances out. Don't forget, too, that I save $100 on each of my AP's. Plus I get tons of discounts on food and merchandise around property.

And how about I trot out a 1,600 pound gorilla to sit on your 800 pounder ... this is all in current day's dollars. My advantage will keep growing, because 10 years from now my vacations will still cost me $800 a year. What will yours cost?

DizneeRX
11-12-2007, 01:35 PM
Actually, the problem is you failed to read my original post where I explained that the cost of my points was, in fact, included in my calculation.

My points are good for about 45 years ... actually a little more, but I'll round down ... our 160 points cost us a little under $15,000. Divide $15,000 by 45 and you get $334. Add to that my current yearly maintenance fee of $450 and my annual cost is around $800 a year for 10 nights in a suite.

And while you're correct that this only covers the room, when you factor in that they were staying at a value resort and I'm in a 1BR suite, I'm pretty sure it more than balances out. Don't forget, too, that I save $100 on each of my AP's. Plus I get tons of discounts on food and merchandise around property.

And how about I trot out a 1,600 pound gorilla to sit on your 800 pounder ... this is all in current day's dollars. My advantage will keep growing, because 10 years from now my vacations will still cost me $800 a year. What will yours cost?


This information is simply incorrect. With regard to your calculations - you state that "this is all in current day's dollars." It is not. I could go into an explanation of present and future value of money, opportunity costs, etc., but I suspect that any explanation that doesn't agree with you would be ignored. To make this a little easier, I suggest you check out the rules for Disney's Year of a Million Dreams promotion. One of the prizes is a DVC membership. The folks at Disney, as required by law, nicely included the price of the prize, in today's dollars. I think they put the price for 220 points at the Saratoga Springs at about $57,000 - and that is the discounted present value - today's dollars.

On a separate point: In one of your earlier posts, you say that your 160 points will get you "about 10 nights". About? Just for fun I checked out the points chart for Saratoga. According to the chart, a 1 bedroom in the cheapest season is 20 points/day Sunday to Thursday, 41 points/day Fri and Sat, 182 points / week. Apparently, about 10 days means 2 separate stays totalling 8 days. And according to the chart I saw, you would need to buy 22 additional points just to stay for 1 full consecutive week...

And on yet another separate point: The issue with the use of the word "vacation" in relation to DVC (for example, "I'll still be paying $1,000 a year for those 10 nights vacation") has nothing to do with the cost. It has to do with knowing what you bought - it's a timeshare hotel room. It's probably a nice big hotel room, it might even be the best 1 bedroom suite I'll never see. But that's what it is - a hotel room, not a vacation. It's a hotel room. In calling this a vacation, it appears that you are trying to convince yourself that got more than actually did. And it's also a testament to the effectiveness of your DVC salesman...

And one last point: Going back to your 40 nights for $4000 a year statement - The fact remains, no matter how you chose to twist the numbers around, that you would need to pay roughly $64000 up front for the points. That's quite a bit of money for most of us. And Disney is certainly not going to allow us to finance this for free over 45 years as you do in you calculation.

And this is really my last point: This is a thread for reasons not to buy DVC. There is a thread for reasons to buy DVC. I find it curious why some DVC owners persist in responding to posts in this thread.

Hammer
11-12-2007, 02:07 PM
And one last point: Going back to your 40 nights for $4000 a year statement - The fact remains, no matter how you chose to twist the numbers around, that you would need to pay roughly $64000 up front for the points. That's quite a bit of money for most of us. And Disney is certainly not going to allow us to finance this for free over 45 years as you do in you calculation.

And this is really my last point: This is a thread for reasons not to buy DVC. There is a thread for reasons to buy DVC. I find it curious why some DVC owners persist in responding to posts in this thread.

Yes, it ia thread on why not to buy in DVC, but if a person's concern can be rectified, people should be able to convey that information. Note that I never argued the point that some people are happy with what a value resort offers. For some, accommodations are not that important. For people like myself, it is a large part of the budget. Neither side is wrong.

The only point of yours which I want to dispute is if you pay for your points up front and do not finance the purchase(which is what I plan to do and others have done), you will not have additional finance charges. The only fees you will incur for the length of the contract are the maintenance fees.

Goes4FastPass
11-12-2007, 02:08 PM
...This is a thread for reasons not to buy DVC. There is a thread for reasons to buy DVC. I find it curious why some DVC owners persist in responding to posts in this thread.

Actually, I'm not surprised or offended that posters on "the other side of the argument" reply in both threads and it seems a bit silly or perhaps Fantasyland-like to build a wall so people with a single viewpoint can be sure they'll never read anything of the other. If a "Reasons Not..." poster writes, "DVC rooms don't have bathrooms" or a "Reasons To" posters writes, "Park admission is included" it only makes sense for someone to post a "disagreeing" reply.

Isn't the DVC as simple as, "If you pay for your room for the next 50 years in advance you'll be able to lock in the room rate" and some people respond, "I and/or my decendents are going to WDW for the next 50 year regardless of what changes come in...

Maintenance Fees
Park Admission
Dining Costs
Quality
New Attractions Added
Airfares
Gasoline
Recessions
Minnie and Donald in a Sex Scandal
Global Warming
Whatever!And the first time they hear "Welcome Home" they feel the same way a young girl does when a CM wearing a blond wig and a ball gown says, "Hello, Princess."

Ian
11-12-2007, 02:26 PM
... I suspect that any explanation that doesn't agree with you would be ignored.Much as any opinion given by anyone else that doesn't agree with yours will be ignored ... as evidenced by the fact that you won't even tolerate folks providing additional information and opinions in this thread outside of those about why you shouldn't buy.

But I digress ...

The concept of the time value of money is not lost on me and I do agree that there is certainly some added opportunity cost lost in terms of the 15 grand we spent out of pocket to buy our points.

However, some of that is offset against paying for your vacations each year because that too carries a lost opportunity cost, as well. I mean if I spend $15k today for my hotel rooms and you spend $3k a year for the next 5 years for yours then the offset in terms of lost opportunity really isn't that great. Especially not once you factor inflation into the equation, although before you say it ... yes I know that the stock market traditionally provides a return that outpaces inflation. I'm merely saying that the hedge against inflation provides some moderate mitigation of the lost opportunity costs.

As far as the points go, we are staying 5 nights in December in a 1BR for 100 points. I suppose you're right that saying I can stay for 10 nights is misleading. I just ran the numbers quick in my head and didn't check the charts, so to be fair 8 nights is a more accurate number. Although, on the flip side I could get into Old Key West and probably do 10 nights in a 1BR since the points cost less there. I could certainly do like 15 nights a year in a studio.

And I have no clue why Disney would value a 220 point contract at $57,000 except to say that A. they probably aren't counting in the $10 per point discount they're currently offering and B. that probably also includes some portion of the maintenance fees. The current cost per point at Saratoga is (I think) $94 per point, so clearly 220 points are only going to cost you about $20,600. That's a ridiculously inflated valuation, unless (as I said) it includes maintenance fees or something.

Anyway, I will fully admit that DVC isn't for everyone. If you're not particular about your accomodations, don't have a family and need a lot of space, don't plan to vacation regularly at WDW over the length of your contract, etc. then yeah ... I wouldn't really go that way.

But the IF all those things are important to you and IF you would have taken all the vacations you're going to take with DVC anyway and IF you were going to pay out of pocket for comparable accomodations then it indisputably makes both good emotional and fiscal sense.

And again ... not to lose sight of this, there are tons of other perks you get for being a DVC member that save you money. Discounts on party tickets, AP's, meals, merchandise ... that all adds up to significant savings.

HOLITRIN
11-12-2007, 02:32 PM
And I have no clue why Disney would value a 220 point contract at $57,000 except to say that [/QUOTE]


The reason Disney values it at this cost is because the person winning the DVC membership has absolutely NO OOP costs. The cost of the 220 points AND the MF for the next 50 years are covered. Therefore, this is not an inflated cost.

I wish it were me that wins :secret:

Ian
11-12-2007, 06:51 PM
The reason Disney values it at this cost is because the person winning the DVC membership has absolutely NO OOP costs. The cost of the 220 points AND the MF for the next 50 years are covered. Therefore, this is not an inflated cost.

I wish it were me that wins :secret:Right, that's what I figured was the case. Thanks for the clarification!

DizneeRX
11-13-2007, 12:22 PM
Much as any opinion given by anyone else that doesn't agree with yours will be ignored ... as evidenced by the fact that you won't even tolerate folks providing additional information and opinions in this thread outside of those about why you shouldn't buy.

But I digress ...

The concept of the time value of money is not lost on me and I do agree that there is certainly some added opportunity cost lost in terms of the 15 grand we spent out of pocket to buy our points.

However, some of that is offset against paying for your vacations each year because that too carries a lost opportunity cost, as well. I mean if I spend $15k today for my hotel rooms and you spend $3k a year for the next 5 years for yours then the offset in terms of lost opportunity really isn't that great. Especially not once you factor inflation into the equation, although before you say it ... yes I know that the stock market traditionally provides a return that outpaces inflation. I'm merely saying that the hedge against inflation provides some moderate mitigation of the lost opportunity costs.

As far as the points go, we are staying 5 nights in December in a 1BR for 100 points. I suppose you're right that saying I can stay for 10 nights is misleading. I just ran the numbers quick in my head and didn't check the charts, so to be fair 8 nights is a more accurate number. Although, on the flip side I could get into Old Key West and probably do 10 nights in a 1BR since the points cost less there. I could certainly do like 15 nights a year in a studio.

And I have no clue why Disney would value a 220 point contract at $57,000 except to say that A. they probably aren't counting in the $10 per point discount they're currently offering and B. that probably also includes some portion of the maintenance fees. The current cost per point at Saratoga is (I think) $94 per point, so clearly 220 points are only going to cost you about $20,600. That's a ridiculously inflated valuation, unless (as I said) it includes maintenance fees or something.

Now you're just being silly in saying that I won't tolerate folks providing additional information and opinions in this thread outside of those about why you shouldn't buy. huh? It has nothing to do with tolerating anything - I was just following the spirit and rules of this thread. (There's a post from the moderator explaining the rules of this thread a page or 2 back that you might want to read...) If you don't like the thread or the rules imposed on the thread (I assume by the moderators), don't read it. Or change the rules. (Oops, looks like you already did that...Hmmm... are you gonna take your ball and go home?).

Just to be clear - I don't have a problem with DVC - it works for some, doesn't work for others. I think everyone can agree on that. What I do have a problem with is the posters who position their DVC purchase as the greatest financial decision ever, and then support that claim with kindergarten level calculations and wrong information to prove their point. They grossly overstate the benefits (claiming to get 10 days instead of the actual 8 - a 25% error) and understate and twist the costs (you paid $15000 up front - not $300 per year for 45 years - 0%, 45 year financing? sign me up! - and don't forget the opportunity costs involved.)

Have a Magical day!

DVC Mike
11-13-2007, 01:35 PM
Just to be clear - I don't have a problem with DVC - it works for some, doesn't work for others. I think everyone can agree on that. What I do have a problem with is the posters who position their DVC purchase as the greatest financial decision ever, and then support that claim with kindergarten level calculations and wrong information to prove their point. They grossly overstate the benefits...

There is no need to debate the value of DVC. Membership in the Disney Vacation Club is not for everyone. However, DVC can make sense financially. I don't believe there is any intention of "grossly overstating the benefits". I just think DVC members are delighted with their investment and wish to shout it from the rooftops, so we just come across as very enthusiastic about DVC.

Buying a DVC membership is a rational, financially viable option for some people: namely people who plan to stay in the higher-end accommodations at Walt Disney World on a regular basis.

dlpmikki
11-13-2007, 01:58 PM
I am now going to close this thread. We will be opening a new thread to allow for both sides of the discussion. If the discussion becomes repetetive as it has done here I reserve the right to edit and delete posts as necessary to maintain a thread that is helpful to the readers.