Star Wars TFA - can we throw stones now? (Spoilers)

[Mendelson]

I'm a fan of the franchise, but am far from being a deep Star Wars fan (meaning, I have seen the original trilogy dozens of times, the prequels a couple of times, and have never ever delved into the "extended universe," unless you count dressing up like Darth Vader as a kid in 1982 to be part of the "extended universe").

I liked the movie. I really liked the movie.

It "felt" like a Star Wars movie (which the prequels of course, did not). It had a bunch of red meat for fans - Hans' quippy one-liners and rehashes of old lines ("I've got a bad feeling about this" has been in every movie); a plot revolving around Luke (even if he is little more than a MacGuffin); Darth's mask; surprise family lineage, etc.

Having had a week to think about it, it didn't offer anything new, either from plot points or from cool new stuff (first film wowed us with lightsabers, the force, lightspeed; the second with Yoda and Darth's parentage reveal; the third with Jabba, the Emperor's force lightning, etc). This was just a satisfying follow up to Return of the Jedi, with little new wow factor. The most concerning is the blatant rehashing of plot points and the parallels from the originals. It felt at first like Abrams was doing some wink-wink nod but then it got kind of ridiculous. The joke grew to become a near parody.

Plus, the biggest plot skim in the last three decades of cinema was the entire destruction of the Republic! The build up to that lasted about a minute and then after it was over the movie barely reflected on it. The first six films were all about the protection and perseverance of the Republic - almost half of the prequels were set in the Senate and that main planet - and Abrams got rid of it, physically and emotionally, in about three minutes.

Speaking of, what is The Resistance? Is it just the military arm of the Republic? Clearly it's part of the Republic, so why does it have a different name? Does it answer to the Republic? To the Chancellor? Well, if it did, not anymore, it doesn't! (Too soon?) Would I know this if I was involved in the "extended universe?"

Plus, another Death Star? With another glaring weakness? Are these the only space weapons we have to worry about in the future? Er, well...the past. Nevermind.

Man, dealing with Han's death took me like, two days. Eight-year old me that is still living inside of me really had a tough time watching that. That will go down as one of the most traumatic screen deaths I've seen. I've heard other people say it was so obvious - not to me! In fact, just about two minutes before that I was thinking, "What this franchise needed was a big dose of Han Solo." And then zwoomp*

All the nit picking above aside, I really, really liked it and left the theater quite happy. But VIII better really take this thing in new direction. That's my New Hope.


*lightsaber sound

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

I'm a fan of the franchise, but am far from being a deep Star Wars fan (meaning, I have seen the original trilogy dozens of times, the prequels a couple of times, and have never ever delved into the "extended universe," unless you count dressing up like Darth Vader as a kid in 1982 to be part of the "extended universe").

I liked the movie. I really liked the movie.

It "felt" like a Star Wars movie (which the prequels of course, did not). It had a bunch of red meat for fans - Hans' quippy one-liners and rehashes of old lines ("I've got a bad feeling about this" has been in every movie); a plot revolving around Luke (even if he is little more than a MacGuffin); Darth's mask; surprise family lineage, etc.

Having had a week to think about it, it didn't offer anything new, either from plot points or from cool new stuff (first film wowed us with lightsabers, the force, lightspeed; the second with Yoda and Darth's parentage reveal; the third with Jabba, the Emperor's force lightning, etc). This was just a satisfying follow up to Return of the Jedi, with little new wow factor. The most concerning is the blatant rehashing of plot points and the parallels from the originals. It felt at first like Abrams was doing some wink-wink nod but then it got kind of ridiculous. The joke grew to become a near parody.

Plus, the biggest plot skim in the last three decades of cinema was the entire destruction of the Republic! The build up to that lasted about a minute and then after it was over the movie barely reflected on it. The first six films were all about the protection and perseverance of the Republic - almost half of the prequels were set in the Senate and that main planet - and Abrams got rid of it, physically and emotionally, in about three minutes.

Speaking of, what is The Resistance? Is it just the military arm of the Republic? Clearly it's part of the Republic, so why does it have a different name? Does it answer to the Republic? To the Chancellor? Well, if it did, not anymore, it doesn't! (Too soon?) Would I know this if I was involved in the "extended universe?"

Plus, another Death Star? With another glaring weakness? Are these the only space weapons we have to worry about in the future? Er, well...the past. Nevermind.

Man, dealing with Han's death took me like, two days. Eight-year old me that is still living inside of me really had a tough time watching that. That will go down as one of the most traumatic screen deaths I've seen. I've heard other people say it was so obvious - not to me! In fact, just about two minutes before that I was thinking, "What this franchise needed was a big dose of Han Solo." And then zwoomp*

All the nit picking above aside, I really, really liked it and left the theater quite happy. But VIII better really take this thing in new direction. That's my New Hope.


*lightsaber sound

I really enjoyed the movie as well. But in order for it to be more than just a good movie, it needs its version of "Empire Strikes Back" to make it an even better one.

I too had many issues with it, upon later reflection. JJ Abrams still tends to be more of a "lets just destroy everything, have big explosions and make things look cool, and then rehash a story" type of director, and a lot of that flows thru Force Awakens. I found myself chuckling during most of the movie, which is a good thing, as at the time it felt more homage than simply ripping off Star Wars. But there were so many plot parallels, that one could almost successfully argue that this was a remake of Star Wars more so than a continuation of the saga.

Quick list of similarities:

Dessert planet: Jaku = Tatooine
Youth bound to be more than they are: Rey = Luke
Unlikely hero/sidekick: Fin = Han Solo
Required father figure: Han = Obi Wan
Required death of said father figure: Han = Obi Wan
Supreme Bad guy: Snoke = Emperor
Lt Bad guy: Kylo Ren = Darth Vader
Secret plans hidden in Droid: BB8 = R2D2
Droid has to find master: (see above)
Evil government: First Order = Empire
Good guys: Resistance = Rebel Alliance
Bring down the shield generator: Death Star planet = Endor (ok ripped of Jedi, not New Hope)
Good guy standing by Han gets shot in the arm: Chewia = Leia (ripped of Jedi again)
Hidding in the Falcon's smuggling compartments : Rey/Fin = Luke and Han
Cantina Scene: Takodana = Mos Eisley
Turning over light saber: Maz to Rey = Obi Wan to Luke
Big boom: Blow up death star planet = blow up death star (twice)
Big reveal: Kylo Ren, son of Han/Leia = Vader, father of Luke
Find mysterious figure: Rey finds Luke = Luke finds Yoda (ok, that was Empire)
Gun turret battle scene: Fin learning to fire = Luke learning to fire

Needless to say there are probably a lot more "homages" to the original. A good friend of mine tends to believe all that Abrams does is remake movies, not make them (see Star Trek Into Darkness = Wrath of Khan) and blows things up. Hard to argue many of those points.

Again, I did really enjoy the movie, but there are couple lingering questions a/o plot holes that I didn't really like.

Who is Rey: obvious answer is Luke's daughther, although some have put forth she is Kylo's twin, although that would be harder to sell I think. Either way, her past/origins will need explaining.

Rey's force abilities: obviously the Force Awakens is in reference to Rey's experiencing and learning of her abilities with the Force. However, she seemed to be well beyond her abilities. Her ability to fly and essentially combat fly the Falcon seemed a bit unlikely as was how quickly she learned to use a lightsaber, and seemingly become the equal of Kylo Ren, who was trained as a Jedi. Conversely, even though he was wounded, I was confused as to how Kylo suddenly became unable to best two individuals who never held a light saber until that moment.

Maz Kanata. This was the only part of the movie that I didn't like as I was seeing it. Han takes the gang to meet Maz, who is 1000 years old (older than Yoda!) and obviously has some connection with the Force. Somehow she is in possession of Luke's lightsaber, which would be the one Obi-Wan gave him in Star Wars and he lost in his duel with Vader on Bespin. When its mentioned in the movie she simply states "that is a story for another time". I hope that is true, but I have a feeling it was simply a cop out to blow off how she seemed to be in possession of a major plot point despite having no prior relationship with Luke. Rey's draw to the lightsaber is another reason I would suspect she is Luke's daughter.

I didn't particularly care for the fact that they glossed over how the First Order came to be and how suddenly we are back to a resistance/rebel alliance. At the end of Jedi the Emperor was killed, but the Galactic Imperial Fleet and army still existed, so its conceivable the First Order grew out of that, but unless this is explained somewhere else in the Star Wars universe, I don't know anything more about it, or Snoke.

I saw it spoiler free, but saw Han's death coming a mile away, even before he stepped onto the bridge. I figured Kylo Ren had to be or would be something more than just a bad guy, didn't think he'd be Han/Leia's son.

As I said, I did enjoy the movie, but for Force Awakens to be simply more than a Star Wars remake, it needs an incredibly solid second movie, like Empire, to not only bridge the gap but to also fill in some glaring holes and build the characters like Empire did.

[Mendelson]

one could almost successfully argue that this was a remake of Star Wars more so than a continuation of the saga.

....

I was confused as to how Kylo suddenly became unable to best two individuals who never held a light saber until that moment.

Yes!

[baldburke]

And so it begins again! Perhaps Lucas should have never made anything beyond 1977's original release? People spend way too much time over analyzing this. It's their movie and their vision. Poor George Lucas, and now JJ Abrams, has been beat up for years over this. If you don't like it, spend your $15 elsewhere. It is, at the end of the day, a movie that needs to fit at most a hour hour format to keep people's interest. Are people going to spend as much time comparing the Fantastic Beasts to the original Harry Potter series? Will people be as critical if Avatar 2 doesn't live up to their expectations? It's their universe, we just live in it.

[Mendelson]

And so it begins with this thread - complaining that people are expressing an opinion (on a message board, no less) on a piece of art specifically put out for public consumption.

To your suggestion, I can't really know if I don't like it - and to spend my $15 elsewhere - if I don't see it. But perhaps you missed me saying the following, which should make you happy as apparently the Star Wars defender: "I liked the movie. I really liked the movie." And "I really, really liked it and left the theater quite happy."

You should also be happy that it has a 94 percent freshness rating at RT.

To the extent that people do complain and overly whine (I don't put myself in that category), poor George Lucas should get some satisfaction, as it indicates people care very passionately about something he created.

[Speedy1998]

If you don't like it, spend your $15 elsewhere.

Wow!!!?!?!?! You need to find a cheaper theater.

[Mendelson]

Wow!!!?!?!?! You need to find a cheaper theater.

Where I live the range is big. 3D Imax is $16. We went to an early, non-3D/Imax and paid $6 per person.

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

And so it begins again! Perhaps Lucas should have never made anything beyond 1977's original release? People spend way too much time over analyzing this. It's their movie and their vision. Poor George Lucas, and now JJ Abrams, has been beat up for years over this. If you don't like it, spend your $15 elsewhere. It is, at the end of the day, a movie that needs to fit at most a hour hour format to keep people's interest. Are people going to spend as much time comparing the Fantastic Beasts to the original Harry Potter series? Will people be as critical if Avatar 2 doesn't live up to their expectations? It's their universe, we just live in it.

I fail to see what is wrong with discussing a movie, both what worked and what didn't work. I sort of think that was what people had in mind when they created message boards, to discuss things. This thread wasn't labeled "For those that bow to the altar of Force Awakens and pray daily to JJ Abrams". The OP laid out a very coherent explanation of what he (assuming male) liked and didn't like. As did I. You make a remake and or a continuation you are obviously opening yourself up to endless discussion on what people liked or didn't like. It was a very good movie, that said, when you peel back all the hype, at the end of the day it felt very much like a remake of Star Wars, 30 years down the road. Which is why I clearly stated that I felt and hoped it needs its own version of Empire Strikes Back to help make it a better movie.

You clearly don't mind movies with plot holes, that's great, makes it easier to accept things. I on the other hand prefer to understand things, what happened and why, and I really hate when a book or movie doesn't connect the dots and forces you to suspend belief or just go with it. If its a mystery, to be revealed later, that's great, love it, but if its sloppy writing, not so much love. I though Maz having Luke's lightsaber was a significant plot device. Most of what happened there at her place was kind of a typical Abrams mess with explosions, people running all around not knowing what they are doing, but the focal point was Maz delivering the saber to Rey, but they simply gloss over how she came into a saber that was lost on Bespin.

Same thing with the skill set. Luke spent substantial time with a Jedi Master on Dagobah to learn the skills of a Jedi, Kylo was presumably trained by Luke, but Rey or Fin (who has no Jedi skill) somehow can yield a light saber with a high degree of skill while Kylo who can stop a laser blast in mid air with the Force, somehow can't defeat novice fighters. I'm glad you accept that as great plot writing, I kind of scratch my head.

The one thing I wished is that instead of the cliched ground breaking between Kylo and Rey, preventing Rey (somehow) besting Kylo, that they would have instead made Rey decide (like Obi-Wan with Annakin in Sith) to kill or not kill Kylo, instead of the ground chasm taking away that decision. Would have made it a more fitting and powerful scene.

Bottom line, if I pay my good hard earned money to see a film, I certainly have the right to discuss it on a message board. I've just never understood others need to come onto a message board to simply tell someone that they don't have the right say something negative. I'd think you'd have better things to do. Maybe not.

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

Where I live the range is big. 3D Imax is $16. We went to an early, non-3D/Imax and paid $6 per person.

Yeah, I think 3D IMAX was $16 here. I did traditional 2D (friend can't see 3D) on Monday afternoon and it was $9.

I think I read that only one scene, the escape sequence from Jaku, was filmed in true IMAX format. I think the 3D was post production and not the traditional multiple camera format. I'd like to see it in 3D, but all my friends have issues with seeing anything in the 3D format.

[DizneyFreak2002]

I was confused as to how Kylo suddenly became unable to best two individuals who never held a light saber until that moment.

Well, remember, he didn't get beat by Finn... He nearly killed Finn... That most awesome lightsaber ever slashed Finn up his back, rendering him comatose, or knocked out, whatever he is... And also, remember, when Finn fought the Stormtrooper who had that, I'll call it a rod, coming from his armor.... Obviously they were trained in the art of dueling... At least enough for Finn to hold his own with a lightsaber... Unless, there is more to Finn yet to be told...

As for Rey, yes, Kylo was injured... Obviously badly enough to be bleeding... They spent a lot of time sowing just how powerful Chewy's crossbow blaster is... And Kylo took a direct hit in the side... And also, don't forget, Ren wasn't fighting to kill Rey... He was trying to convince her to join him cause he knew she has the power of the force.... Much like Vader didn't fight Luke in Empire with the thoughts of killing him, but to fight him just enough, into submission, with the hopes he'd join Vader by his side... If anything, Rey had the look of murder in her eyes, but the planet crumbling and splitting them up prevented that from happening...

Saw the movie for a second time today, and will probably see if a third time next week... While it does have similarities to A New Hope, I find nothing wrong with that... Force Awakens gets the series back on track after the garbage Lucas gave us with Ep 1 and 2... Of course it has its issues, most movies do, and no movie is perfect... But I don't go to watch a movie to find its flaws... I go to be entertained.. And Force Awakens entertains...

[cer]

Saw the movie today... on $5 Tuesday. We loved it.

Really hated to see Han go...

Kylo Ren reminded me of Snape - not only in appearance but also in costume. Was it just me?

I am not a real student of Star Wars. My daughter asked me if there was as much humor in the other episodes as this one. I told her that it really was dependent on the characters in the episode. It seems to me in my memory that the ones with Han have more humor, the ones without seem to be more serious. What do y'all think?

I'm enjoying this thread. I like to hear what other people think about movies. I appreciate the technical discussion. It makes me a more thoughtful viewer.

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

Kylo Ren reminded me of Snape - not only in appearance but also in costume. Was it just me?


As we left the theater and was talking about the movie with my buddy, I made the same comment, that Kylo Ren reminded me of Alan Rickman.

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

Well, remember, he didn't get beat by Finn... He nearly killed Finn... That most awesome lightsaber ever slashed Finn up his back, rendering him comatose, or knocked out, whatever he is... And also, remember, when Finn fought the Stormtrooper who had that, I'll call it a rod, coming from his armor.... Obviously they were trained in the art of dueling... At least enough for Finn to hold his own with a lightsaber... Unless, there is more to Finn yet to be told...

As for Rey, yes, Kylo was injured... Obviously badly enough to be bleeding... They spent a lot of time sowing just how powerful Chewy's crossbow blaster is... And Kylo took a direct hit in the side... And also, don't forget, Ren wasn't fighting to kill Rey... He was trying to convince her to join him cause he knew she has the power of the force.... Much like Vader didn't fight Luke in Empire with the thoughts of killing him, but to fight him just enough, into submission, with the hopes he'd join Vader by his side... If anything, Rey had the look of murder in her eyes, but the planet crumbling and splitting them up prevented that from happening...

Saw the movie for a second time today, and will probably see if a third time next week... While it does have similarities to A New Hope, I find nothing wrong with that... Force Awakens gets the series back on track after the garbage Lucas gave us with Ep 1 and 2... Of course it has its issues, most movies do, and no movie is perfect... But I don't go to watch a movie to find its flaws... I go to be entertained.. And Force Awakens entertains...

With regards to Fin, didn't we find out that he was essentially a sanitation worker? And his performance, or lack there of, during the initial slaughter on Jaku would seem to indicate, potentially, some lack of training or inability to use it. If Kylo can stop a laser blast in mid air, he should have defeated Fin with a simple flick of the wrist.

Injured or not, with his Jedi training and experience, Kylo should have easily bested Rey, who up to that point had never held a lightsaber or used her awakening Jedi powers. As Vader said in Empire "all too easy". The fact that Rey had Kylo essentially beaten would have been the equivalent of Luke Skywalker besting Vader in Empire, just not going to happen at that stage. Rey certainly seems to be the fastest learning potential Jedi that we've seen in the entire franchise. But I love that character and can see unlimited potential with it, they just endowed her with way too much unbelievable abilities way too soon (like combat flying the Millenium Falcon, really?) At least with Luke in A New Hope, they had established that back on Tatooine, that he was a great bush pilot. Not something they established with Rey.

I kind of laughed, it was a funny scene, but you'd think in the 50 or so odd years that Han and Chewie were teamed up, that Han would have tried his crossbow blaster at least once.

I think saying Force Awakens had similarities to New Hope is being a bit too generous, it really was A New Hope, just done somewhat differently. It was very entertaining and I really liked the movie, but because it is more than a stand alone movie, is part of a ongoing saga, if you will, that its valid to wonder about some plot holes and where its heading. Which is why I've said from the beginning that I hope whatever movie #2 is, is that its as strong or somehow even better than Empire.

Are you assuming Rey is Luke's daughter or do you have another theory?

I still get annoyed with how Maz happened to be in possession of Luke's original saber, I am hoping that gets explained and becomes part of the story and not just glossed over fluff.

[DizneyFreak2002]

With regards to Fin, didn't we find out that he was essentially a sanitation worker? And his performance, or lack there of, during the initial slaughter on Jaku would seem to indicate, potentially, some lack of training or inability to use it. If Kylo can stop a laser blast in mid air, he should have defeated Fin with a simple flick of the wrist.
We also don't know how long Finn was a Stormtrooper for... His actions suggest only for a brief time... But I'm sure he wouldn't be suited for his armor if he wasn't trained... Unless, like I said, there really is more to him than we were led to believe...


Injured or not, with his Jedi training and experience, Kylo should have easily bested Rey, who up to that point had never held a lightsaber or used her awakening Jedi powers. As Vader said in Empire "all too easy". The fact that Rey had Kylo essentially beaten would have been the equivalent of Luke Skywalker besting Vader in Empire, just not going to happen at that stage. Rey certainly seems to be the fastest learning potential Jedi that we've seen in the entire franchise. But I love that character and can see unlimited potential with it, they just endowed her with way too much unbelievable abilities way too soon (like combat flying the Millenium Falcon, really?) At least with Luke in A New Hope, they had established that back on Tatooine, that he was a great bush pilot. Not something they established with Rey.
He was kind of getting the best of her though... it was only she started to "HULK" up and absorb the force did she start to over power him... I think that is to suggest she is even more powerful with the force than Luke, or at least Kylo... Wasn't Anakin, at what age 8??? already a well established pilot? We don't know Rey's story, just that she was dropped off on Jakku when she was a child... We really don't know what kind of flight training or practice she had, and also, remember, she was a scavenger... And the Falcon was part of the junkyard where she brought her parts... I think it is safe to assume she either worked on the Falcon or at the least was in there many times and learned her way around it... Not so sure it is that much of a stretch that she can pilot it...


I kind of laughed, it was a funny scene, but you'd think in the 50 or so odd years that Han and Chewie were teamed up, that Han would have tried his crossbow blaster at least once. Yea you'd think LOL... They did spend a lot of time driving home the crossbow's power... I'm wondering if they planned on that or after realizing they had Rey best Kylo, they added the crossbow's power into the storyline so that way we can discuss, as we are doing, why she bested Kylo... :) Possible plot hole???


I think saying Force Awakens had similarities to New Hope is being a bit too generous, it really was A New Hope, just done somewhat differently. It was very entertaining and I really liked the movie, but because it is more than a stand alone movie, is part of a ongoing saga, if you will, that its valid to wonder about some plot holes and where its heading. Which is why I've said from the beginning that I hope whatever movie #2 is, is that its as strong or somehow even better than Empire.
I'm hoping Episode 8 delves into the character back stories more...


Are you assuming Rey is Luke's daughter or do you have another theory?
Still wondering about this... When I left the theater yesterday, my father said they made it very obvious that Rey was Luke's daughter... Which is why I'm leaning toward she isn't... I mean, if she is, they kind of blew it with the reveal because of how obvious they made it... But if she isn't, then who is she? I don't think she is Han and Leia's daughter...


I still get annoyed with how Maz happened to be in possession of Luke's original saber, I am hoping that gets explained and becomes part of the story and not just glossed over fluff.
I hope they don't over look that either... Why do I sense that story will be one of the stand alones?

[Speedy1998]

As for Rey, yes, Kylo was injured... Obviously badly enough to be bleeding... They spent a lot of time sowing just how powerful Chewy's crossbow blaster is... And Kylo took a direct hit in the side... And also, don't forget, Ren wasn't fighting to kill Rey... He was trying to convince her to join him cause he knew she has the power of the force.... Much like Vader didn't fight Luke in Empire with the thoughts of killing him, but to fight him just enough, into submission, with the hopes he'd join Vader by his side... If anything, Rey had the look of murder in her eyes, but the planet crumbling and splitting them up prevented that from happening...

..

Good Analysis, though one thing that you did not mention about Rey is she seem to have what I guess you could call "Street Smarts" that she picked up struggling for survival on Jaku. I don't think it is much of a stretch to assume that her skill defending herself with a staff would translate to other melee weapons.

[The Hitchhiking Ghost]

Good Analysis, though one thing that you did not mention about Rey is she seem to have what I guess you could call "Street Smarts" that she picked up struggling for survival on Jaku. I don't think it is much of a stretch to assume that her skill defending herself with a staff would translate to other melee weapons.

I think its a pretty big stretch -- to quote Han Solo "good against remotes, that's one thing, against the living, that's another".

Think of the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, where Wil Turner first stumbles upon Captain Jack in the blacksmith shop. Jack makes some comments like you handle it well, but lets see about your foot work. Yes, Rey is like Aladdin, a street smart urchin, and she can use her staff defensively to protect herself, or on occassion use it to strike out. But its a huge stretch to think you can pick up a sword, foil, saber or other such instrument and instantly know how to wield it, much less defeat someone who is trained and a master at it. It would take years of proper training to know how to wield a light saber properly. How they portrayed Fin was more realistic, stumbling, blindly charging, try to use brute force to win. Rey's portrayal should have been more like that, in no way should she have come anywhere close to besting Kylo.

[BrowncatP]

I think with just one different line in the script, the Han using Chewie's gun would of been better. Han should of said,"Nice improvement," as he was shooting Chewie's crossbow.

[Jeff]

Man, dealing with Han's death took me like, two days. Eight-year old me that is still living inside of me really had a tough time watching that. That will go down as one of the most traumatic screen deaths I've seen. I've heard other people say it was so obvious - not to me! In fact, just about two minutes before that I was thinking, "What this franchise needed was a big dose of Han Solo." And then zwoomp*

All the nit picking above aside, I really, really liked it and left the theater quite happy. But VIII better really take this thing in new direction. That's my New Hope.


*lightsaber sound

I agree! Hannah was one of my all time favorite movie characters!

[Zawadi]

2 other homages on the Falcon

Holographic "chess" table
Luke's light sabre training drone found by Fin when searching for med kit to treat Chewie