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BKBrinkman
01-27-2015, 08:30 AM
Heard a rumor that PofC was closing this year for a much needed refurbishment. I understand it's fallen into great disrepair over the years and needs at least a 4-6 month refurb to bring it back. Has anyone else heard this and if so, do you know the dates? We'll be there the end of May into June and would hate to miss PofC even if it's not in its full glory!

VWL Mom
01-27-2015, 09:13 AM
It is rumored to be going down for a six month rehab beginning in the summer and reopening in time for the holidays. This has not been announced or confirmed by Disney.

Disney4us2
01-27-2015, 09:16 AM
I was on it last week. Didn't look run down or that bad.

Strmchsr
01-27-2015, 10:38 AM
The issue right now is deciding length of time. POTC is in really bad shape, like SM was before it's big refurb. This includes a lot of behind the scenes stuff the public doesn't see - out of date technology, bad audio, etc. It's going to take time to gut a lot of these systems and get them up to date. The Imagineers were originally pushing for closer to a year. Now they're saying 6 months, but a lot of the brass doesn't want it closed that long and pushing for closer to 3-4 months. So once that's all decided they'll announce it.

1DisneyNut
01-28-2015, 07:54 PM
They are probably trying to figure out how to add a Frozen scene in it somewhere. :thedolls:

diz_girl
01-29-2015, 10:28 AM
Why would they need a rehab? While it was nine years ago, POTC was down for four months back in '06. Wouldn't they have taken care of some needed behind the scenes fixes then? But maybe it's time again, since it's almost been ten years since the last rehab.

mydisneygirls
01-29-2015, 11:49 AM
Well I hope it's before or after August. Would be very sad not being able to ride. It's one of our favorites.

PopPhan
01-29-2015, 11:57 AM
Well I hope it's before or after August. Would be very sad not being able to ride. It's one of our favorites.

I could say the same thing about Jungle Cruise which will be down for rehab when I visit in April/May. Unfortunately, there is always a chance that a favorite will be in rehab no matter when you visit. Just have to smile and think to yourself that the rehab will make it even that much better on your next visit.

mydisneygirls
01-29-2015, 12:01 PM
From what I read, it seems that a 12 year old boy severed a few fingers on the ride while his hand was on the outside of the boat. I'm guessing that the closure has something to do with that.

Disneylovescompany
01-29-2015, 12:31 PM
It does need a lot of work..Audio System, Timing of some of the animatronics, getting some of them to work properly, boats need to be replaced. When they changed to the new boats they didnt realize the effect on the plunge, eventually causing the closure of back seats due to guests getting soaked. The issue with the severed finger was the fault of the guest but of course Disney wants to minimize liability. I expect a change again to the boats and an overhaul of the audio, effects, and the animatronics in disrepair to be addressed. It will take 4-6 months because it is a lot of work.

CaptSmee
01-29-2015, 05:25 PM
Hopefully they put the old boats back in. The new ones continually get stuck when they fill them to capacity causing the ride to go down. I was on it once & we had to "rock" ourselves unstuck several times. Ridiculous

missouridisney
01-31-2015, 10:11 AM
I would say it needs a refurb. We were there in Oct. went to ride in am and it was broke down. Went back and it was working. Stood in a long line, finally our turn, sat down in the boat and it broke down. They couldn't unlock the gates for us to get back out, so we had to ride thru. All the lights were on, but nothing working and no sounds. It was WEIRD and kind of spooky. Went back later in the afternoon and still broke down, so never got to ride

Scallywag
02-01-2015, 09:09 AM
It would be cool if they rotated pirates. ( The part where you go through the waterfall looking mist ). It used to be Davey Jones, now it's always Blackbeard. There are so many neat characters in the Pirate movies, it would be interesting to see different ones each time you ride. You wouldn't think it would be that hard to do.

VWL Mom
02-01-2015, 10:15 AM
The Imagineers were originally pushing for closer to a year. Now they're saying 6 months, but a lot of the brass doesn't want it closed that long and pushing for closer to 3-4 months. So once that's all decided they'll announce it.

Makes no sense to me. They keep shortening the refurb times, shortcutting the work, and then finding it necessary to close again because they didn't do XYZ the first time. Although I'd miss it I'm leaning towards do it and do it right.

Tinkerbella16
02-01-2015, 01:28 PM
I can't tell you how many times I've looked at the wait times and POTC was on the closed list and then it re-opened later. It does need work. I have not seen the Blackbeard mist projection working for two trips now. I really loved that part. Also there have been a lot of complaints about the new boats and people getting soaked in the front row. Hoping it reopens for the holiday season in November!

CaptSmee
02-01-2015, 01:30 PM
I can't tell you how many times I've looked at the wait times and POTC was on the closed list and then it re-opened later. It does need work. I have not seen the Blackbeard mist projection working for two trips now. I really loved that part. Also there have been a lot of complaints about the new boats and people getting soaked in the front row. Hoping it reopens for the holiday season in November!

Blackbeard must was not working last week, was working yesterday though. Maybe he's an intermittent problem?

Tinkerbella16
02-01-2015, 01:53 PM
Blackbeard must was not working last week, was working yesterday though. Maybe he's an intermittent problem?

Well that is good to know! I rode Pirates countless number of times this past November and November 2013 and didn't see it once. So I assumed they just weren't showing it anymore because of problems. Hope to see it in the future!

Strmchsr
02-01-2015, 02:02 PM
Makes no sense to me. They keep shortening the refurb times, shortcutting the work, and then finding it necessary to close again because they didn't do XYZ the first time. Although I'd miss it I'm leaning towards do it and do it right.

I'm with you 100% Lynn. Close it down for however long is necessary to get it right so that it works for another 50 years. They should've learned by now this halfway stuff with the refurbs is just leading to more problems. But the brass doesn't want to hear the complaining from folks while it's closed.

MNDisney Dad
02-01-2015, 03:03 PM
Totally agree. Close it down and get it right.

LVT
02-01-2015, 08:31 PM
So, you don't have time to do it right, but you do have time to do it over?:thedolls: Please Disney, do it right the first time. The competition to the north will catch up. Space mountain was a disappointment.

DisneyWorld1971
02-02-2015, 10:08 AM
They are probably trying to figure out how to add a Frozen scene in it somewhere. :thedolls:

Oh My Gosh!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!:D Too funny!! I totally agree with you. They are adding frozen to everything!!!:mad:

i'm grumpy
02-02-2015, 12:31 PM
We wants the Ice Queen. LOL.

Johnno52
02-02-2015, 05:12 PM
We also got "soaked" in the front seat and took hours to dry off! We told the Cast member after the ride to keep guests off the front seat and his answer was "it is a water ride". So now we make sure we don't sit in the front 3 seats!

BIGDOG
02-04-2015, 02:50 PM
Close the POC for any reason and we will riot.
It is my only must do every trip

SwissCheese1981
02-04-2015, 11:08 PM
I did notice on our recent trip that the audio wasnt as crisp as I remember it. It would be nice to see (and hear) the attraction get some new technology to improve it!
I'd hope they would close it for as long as needed, simply because doing things half way will only result in more frequent future closures.

NewmanFamily6
02-06-2015, 10:57 PM
It was down a couple of weeks ago when we were there too. We were able to ride it once and I did not notice anyone completely soaked that time. I agree fix it properly the first time. There are a plethora of rides that really need a lot of work but where is the time and money going....Avatarland:confused:

SandmanGStefani24
02-12-2015, 05:26 PM
It was down a couple of weeks ago when we were there too. We were able to ride it once and I did not notice anyone completely soaked that time. I agree fix it properly the first time. There are a plethora of rides that really need a lot of work but where is the time and money going....Avatarland:confused:

We did not get to ride it this visit because it was down the majority of the day. It opened for a short while during the day but was shut down while we were in line due to what CMs called "technical problems". They did give us free FPs for another ride at least. Anyone know what is wrong with the ride lately?

epceddie
02-13-2015, 06:33 PM
It would be nice if they could come up with a fix for all the inconsiderate people who insist on taking photos of every scene and ruining the ride for everyone else in the boat.

texas211
02-15-2015, 08:17 PM
They are probably trying to figure out how to add a Frozen scene in it somewhere. :thedolls:

That would be funnier if it wasn't probably the truth.

goofy for pluto
02-15-2015, 10:12 PM
It would be nice if they could come up with a fix for all the inconsiderate people who insist on taking photos of every scene and ruining the ride for everyone else in the boat.

This

Sylvia
02-15-2015, 10:24 PM
It would be nice if they could come up with a fix for all the inconsiderate people who insist on taking photos of every scene and ruining the ride for everyone else in the boat.

Ditto!!!!!

crazygoalie39
02-16-2015, 10:13 PM
Close the POC for any reason and we will riot.
It is my only must do every trip

Haha. I'm with you. It better be open for our trip in October.

manutd1
02-21-2015, 02:10 PM
I heard July 6 closure???? Till nov 30th. This was from another site...:confused: Not sure if close to being correct.

Cinderelley
02-22-2015, 12:41 PM
I can't tell you how many times I've looked at the wait times and POTC was on the closed list and then it re-opened later. It does need work. I have not seen the Blackbeard mist projection working for two trips now. I really loved that part. Also there have been a lot of complaints about the new boats and people getting soaked in the front row. Hoping it reopens for the holiday season in November!

It is a water ride. Why would they complain? It would be like getting on splash mountain and being upset that you got wet.

DizneyFreak2002
02-22-2015, 12:44 PM
It is a water ride. Why would they complain? It would be like getting on splash mountain and being upset that you got wet.
Because it isn't a log flume where one expects to get wet... How wet do you get on Small World?

Pirates is in the same league as Small World, a ride in which the ride vehicle is a boat, guided along a track submerged in very shallow water, to fit the theme of sailing in the Caribbean... The new boats were poorly designed... The new boats leaked causing people to get soaked... Not what you would expect from a gentle dark ride...

manutd1
02-22-2015, 12:56 PM
It is a water ride. Why would they complain? It would be like getting on splash mountain and being upset that you got wet.
Amazing the things folks will complain about...
However, I haven't got "wet" on POTC. Maybe a little in D.l. but never in the World.
going in May....Hope its still open before the refurb...I have read it will be..We'll see!!

SandmanGStefani24
02-22-2015, 06:24 PM
the worst I've gotten was a little drop or two or freezing cold water from the cannon fire. :D

Strmchsr
02-24-2015, 02:32 PM
And now it's official - May 11 through Sept 25 anticipated with potential extension depending on how things go.

Cass&KenziesMom
02-24-2015, 03:40 PM
That *****! This is one of the very few rides my chicken 9 yr old will actually get on!

mydisneygirls
02-24-2015, 03:51 PM
It looks like it has already closed for something. When you look at the Disney website under POC, it says:

"As part of our continuing efforts to exceed the expectations of our Guests, Pirates of the Caribbean® is currently closed for enhancements. Please check back here for the latest updates and information about when it will reopen."

texas211
02-24-2015, 04:34 PM
My only problem with getting wet on a ride is, wondering if that is really water??

I mean, how good was plumbing in the 1700's...

manutd1
02-24-2015, 08:33 PM
My only problem with getting wet on a ride is, wondering if that is really water??

I mean, how good was plumbing in the 1700's...
Old..........But seriously, looking forward to it re opening. 4 months is a good refurb. Plenty of time to do what they want done. My only beef is that I wish it was as long as Pirates at D.l. :thumbsup: Im a POTC fan and the D.L. version is superb. The queue isn't as nice as WDW though.

DizneyFreak2002
02-24-2015, 09:52 PM
Four months, not enough time to do what is needed... Imagineering wanted 9 months to fix all the issues.. Phil Holmes wanted only 4... We know who won...

Space Mountain is a prime example of not allowing Imagineering the proper time to fix the issues..

manutd1
02-24-2015, 10:04 PM
Four months, not enough time to do what is needed... Imagineering wanted 9 months to fix all the issues.. Phil Holmes wanted only 4... We know who won...

Space Mountain is a prime example of not allowing Imagineering the proper time to fix the issues..
there was a fan group that didn't want space mountain to change at all...So, obviously some folks didn't want it to get much done..and is happy with it as it was and as it is now...since it didnt get the D.L. redo. Im torn as to which one i like better...Some days D.L. space others WDW space...they are so different but the old school vibe of WDW is very special. The james bond music is cool on DL space though...i like that. Its very 80's
As for the potc refurb...It is a different beast than a roller coaster....who knows...a lot can be done in 2 months let alone 4
We built the hoover dam a lot faster than originally thought........

DizneyFreak2002
02-24-2015, 10:30 PM
there was a fan group that didn't want space mountain to change at all...So, obviously some folks didn't want it to get much done..and is happy with it as it was and as it is now...since it didnt get the D.L. redo. Im torn as to which one i like better...Some days D.L. space others WDW space...they are so different but the old school vibe of WDW is very special. The james bond music is cool on DL space though...i like that. Its very 80's
As for the potc refurb...It is a different beast than a roller coaster....who knows...a lot can be done in 2 months let alone 4
We built the hoover dam a lot faster than originally thought........

When I talk about the Space Mountain refurb, I don't mean turning it into DL's version... There are many structural issues with WDW's Space Mountain... All issues Imagineering knew about and wanted to fix now instead of kicking that can down the road... Phil Holmes and WDW management cut the a huge slab of the refub out, including new, reinforced state of the art track... Instead, you are still riding around on 1974 track... He cut the budget and the work to be done... Imagineering could only put on a band aid when it needs a complete transplant...

As for Pirates, again, there is a slew of issues with the attraction that Imagineering knows needs at least 9 months to fix... Phil Holmes wanted 4 months only... Not enough time to fix everything... Expect Pirates to get a band aid when it needs a transplant...

The only worthwhile refurbs recently have been Haunted Mansion (minus the graveyard queue) and Splash Mountain...

goofy for pluto
02-24-2015, 11:15 PM
manutd1-- ."So, obviously some folks didn't want it to get much done..and is happy with it as it was and as it is now...since it didnt get the D.L. redo. Im torn as to which one i like better"

Seriously? The last time I rode space Mountain in WDW it was totally dark. the track was rough and the theme was gone. I thought they ruined it. The last time I rode Space Mountain in Disneyland It was great, smoother track more comfortable car to sit in, overall a much better experience than WDW.
I love old school WDW as much as any one. I'm totally crushed about what they did to Spaceship Earth, but Space Mountain in Disneyland is a far superior experience to the one in WDW.

DizneyFreak2002
02-25-2015, 12:04 AM
manutd1-- ."So, obviously some folks didn't want it to get much done..and is happy with it as it was and as it is now...since it didnt get the D.L. redo. Im torn as to which one i like better"

Seriously? The last time I rode space Mountain in WDW it was totally dark. the track was rough and the theme was gone. I thought they ruined it. The last time I rode Space Mountain in Disneyland It was great, smoother track more comfortable car to sit in, overall a much better experience than WDW.
I love old school WDW as much as any one. I'm totally crushed about what they did to Spaceship Earth, but Space Mountain in Disneyland is a far superior experience to the one in WDW.

The Space Mountain refurb was never meant to be about making like Disneyland... it was always about making the WDW version better... And bringing into this century... Once again, management took a scissor to the budget and the plans and cut, cut, cut... Cut to the barest of bones... Instead of a new, smoother track, with new vehicles which would have contained speakers to broadcast the soundtrack, you got masking tape on the old steal beams holding up the 1974 track, speaks placed inside the show building playing the soundtrack that you can never hear... A rough and jarring coaster ride on old steal... Again, putting a band aid on a wound when a transplant is actually needed...

goofy for pluto
02-25-2015, 12:30 AM
"The Space Mountain refurb was never meant to be about making like Disneyland... it was always about making the WDW version better."

Is it still dark? I remember it was so dark that it just wasn't fun anymore, and no black-light stripes speeding across the track on another car, it seems like the planets were different too. I stopped riding it after that so those issues may have been addressed already, but I clearly remember everyone n our group leaving that day and commenting on how they had ruined it. None of us were expecting it to be Disneyland's version. It just seems that they gave the west coast a huge upgrade and took out everything that made the Florida version worth riding.

DizneyFreak2002
02-25-2015, 01:12 AM
"The Space Mountain refurb was never meant to be about making like Disneyland... it was always about making the WDW version better."

Is it still dark? I remember it was so dark that it just wasn't fun anymore, and no black-light stripes speeding across the track on another car, it seems like the planets were different too. I stopped riding it after that so those issues may have been addressed already, but I clearly remember everyone n our group leaving that day and commenting on how they had ruined it. None of us were expecting it to be Disneyland's version. It just seems that they gave the west coast a huge upgrade and took out everything that made the Florida version worth riding.
Yes, it's still dark... And honestly, it should be... You are supposed to be in space after all... :)

Disneyland always gets the best upgrades and the nice new shiny toys... WDW gets the scraps...

SandmanGStefani24
02-25-2015, 12:45 PM
Yes, it's still dark... And honestly, it should be... You are supposed to be in space after all... :)



:thumbsup:

I do miss the glow in the dark stripes on the cars from back in the day though.

Coleby
02-25-2015, 12:53 PM
As for Pirates, again, there is a slew of issues with the attraction that Imagineering knows needs at least 9 months to fix... Phil Holmes wanted 4 months only... Not enough time to fix everything... Expect Pirates to get a band aid when it needs a transplant...

The only worthwhile refurbs recently have been Haunted Mansion (minus the graveyard queue) and Splash Mountain...

Please help me out because I get in the Disney mode for the most part, what are the issues that need to be fixed on Pirates? I am confused :confused:

manutd1
02-25-2015, 04:37 PM
Please help me out because I get in the Disney mode for the most part, what are the issues that need to be fixed on Pirates? I am confused :confused:
I know it has stopped more lately than is acceptable...but I honestly don't see and thing wrong with it once we are enjoying the ride.:confused:
I'll be looking forward to it in early May before the refurb....then next year once its done..to see if I can remember what was improved or fixed..

Strmchsr
02-25-2015, 05:18 PM
There are a ton of issues that need to be fixed, starting with the new boats that are taking on way too much water. Then there are audio and audio-animatronic issues going on. There is some technology that is decades old that needs to be replaced. Some of the issues you can't see. It's under the hood stuff. But its there and needs to be dealt with to improve the show. You can only hold things together with bubble gum and duct tape for so long. My guess is much of what is fixed won't be noticed by the average guest other than the ride won't break down so often and will sound better.

DizneyFreak2002
02-25-2015, 06:18 PM
There are a ton of issues that need to be fixed, starting with the new boats that are taking on way too much water. Then there are audio and audio-animatronic issues going on. There is some technology that is decades old that needs to be replaced. Some of the issues you can't see. It's under the hood stuff. But its there and needs to be dealt with to improve the show. You can only hold things together with bubble gum and duct tape for so long. My guess is much of what is fixed won't be noticed by the average guest other than the ride won't break down so often and will sound better.

Thank you for answering the question posed about the issues Pirates currently has... I do want to ask you, if you know of, heard of, or can find out: I heard about Imagineering wanting to add a new final scene, where the current unload is... Did you hear anything of the sort? I don't think it was meant to be included in the upcoming refurb, but was something Imagineering planned and tried to sell to management a while back...

I trust the info cause it came from reliable people (plus I saw it posted from other reliable people on other sites)... Just curious if you heard it too, or have any details on what the scene would consist of... I couldn't gather that info...

Strmchsr
02-26-2015, 07:27 AM
I heard about Imagineering wanting to add a new final scene, where the current unload is... Did you hear anything of the sort? I don't think it was meant to be included in the upcoming refurb, but was something Imagineering planned and tried to sell to management a while back...

Yeah, it was definitely something they tried to get implemented but it won't be in this refurb. They had wanted to make it as sort of a Tortuga dock scene as if you were the pirate arriving with all of your plunder to spend to give the finale a story as opposed to plain boring unloading area that's there now.

Cinderelley
02-26-2015, 11:06 AM
Because it isn't a log flume where one expects to get wet... How wet do you get on Small World?

Pirates is in the same league as Small World, a ride in which the ride vehicle is a boat, guided along a track submerged in very shallow water, to fit the theme of sailing in the Caribbean... The new boats were poorly designed... The new boats leaked causing people to get soaked... Not what you would expect from a gentle dark ride...

I always remember getting wet whenever I rode in the front of the boat. Maybe it is because most of my POTC rides were at Disneyland, but in my mind, if there's water involved I have a chance of getting wet.

Strmchsr
02-26-2015, 11:24 AM
It wasn't so much that people got splashed a little but that water was staying in the boats and they were weighed down. Some folks come off POTC looking like SM and they weren't expecting that.

Speedy1998
02-27-2015, 12:36 PM
Personnally I would like to see something done with the queue. It needs to be narrowed or something so people can not push past your group. IMHO the only queue that is worse is the one after the streching room at HM.

manutd1
02-27-2015, 04:23 PM
Personnally I would like to see something done with the queue. It needs to be narrowed or something so people can not push past your group. IMHO the only queue that is worse is the one after the streching room at HM.
I actually think its one of the best at WDW, I never really noticed any issues at the end of the queue or middle...I assume thats where you mean. We just keep a moving and go...
I know a lot of folks like to stop and look at stuff while in line...We do that too but we would certainly walk around someone stopping to look...as I would also expect if I did the same. There is only a few places where I have noticed people gazing at the scenes.

dtootsie42
02-28-2015, 05:28 PM
when we were there in January 2014 we thought that the ride looked pretty sad. I have always enjoyed POTC at Disneyland better and thought it looked so much better than Disney World when we rode it in December 2014.

texas211
03-02-2015, 10:03 PM
Personnally I would like to see something done with the queue. It needs to be narrowed or something so people can not push past your group. IMHO the only queue that is worse is the one after the streching room at HM.

I hate the queue for Laugh Floor.

azcavalier
03-03-2015, 11:22 AM
Because it isn't a log flume where one expects to get wet... How wet do you get on Small World?

Pirates is in the same league as Small World, a ride in which the ride vehicle is a boat, guided along a track submerged in very shallow water, to fit the theme of sailing in the Caribbean... The new boats were poorly designed... The new boats leaked causing people to get soaked... Not what you would expect from a gentle dark ride...

I dunno....I would really like Small World more if there was the threat of getting wet!

Melanie
03-03-2015, 12:00 PM
I dunno know, maybe I'm weird, but I kind of like getting wet on Pirates, and soaked may be a bit of an exaggeration. :pirate:

Speedy1998
03-03-2015, 12:32 PM
I actually think its one of the best at WDW, I never really noticed any issues at the end of the queue or middle...I assume thats where you mean. We just keep a moving and go...
I know a lot of folks like to stop and look at stuff while in line...We do that too but we would certainly walk around someone stopping to look...as I would also expect if I did the same. There is only a few places where I have noticed people gazing at the scenes.

No I mean at the outside plaza area, before you get into the building. Usually inside the building people stop trying to push past you.

DizneyFreak2002
03-03-2015, 12:42 PM
I dunno....I would really like Small World more if there was the threat of getting wet!
Make it a log flume without that blasted song playing over and over and over.. Yep would be much more enjoyable LOL...

The Hitchhiking Ghost
03-03-2015, 01:12 PM
Make it a log flume without that blasted song playing over and over and over.. Yep would be much more enjoyable LOL...

Better yet, a flume but one that starts out just like Rock and Roll Rollercoaster.

BKBrinkman
03-03-2015, 04:13 PM
So with an official closing on May 11th, looks like we will in fact miss riding on this iconic ride on our trip in late May/early June. Very sad because that's always the first and last ride of every trip. What ever will we do now! Seeing many of the posts I do agree it needs some work as many rides routinely do. I just question shutting it down for the peak time of the year (summer). Wouldn't an early August through November time frame work better? Disappointing for us since we only travel to WDW once every 5 years or so on average but it'll bump up the importance of the next trip!

pixiesmimi
03-04-2015, 01:44 PM
No I mean at the outside plaza area, before you get into the building. Usually inside the building people stop trying to push past you.

Last time we were there, the CMs were encouraging people to push past you saying "There is not just one line. Fill in and keep moving. So we walked past people that were just standing there and filled in up ahead of them. I didn't like that either and felt embarrassed to do it, but the CMs were telling us to. But of course, up ahead then it narrows into one line. Makes no sense.

LandFan
03-07-2015, 08:13 AM
Well, I, for one, would really love it if the fixed the darn boats! We've ridden it probably 50 times over the last handful of years and gotten the occasional small splash. Normal stuff. This fall I bring my whole family down for a special occasion and the first night we are there we are at the Christmas party and hop on pirates with our fastpass (2nd ride of the night). We are in the front row and lo and behold my niece and I get completely and utterly sopping drenched like you get on Kali! Crazy wet through everything we have on! The worst part is that it was cold out that night so we had to trek to main street sopping wet and freezing and buy $50 sweatpants for each of us and it wasted our time for 45 minutes of the Christmas party!

If the ride has the potential to get you sopping wet, they need to put up signs at the beginning of the attraction to warn people. We wouldn't have ridden it that night if we'd known. It really killed some of the joy of that first night.