Seven Dwarfs Mine Train Vs Gringrots, who will have more people?

[Jimmy Thick]

Now, I just love me some Disney vs Universal debates, especially when Universal comes out on the short end of the stick. But this is indeed a serious question.

Which new attraction will have more riders at any given time, the new Seven Dwarfs ride or the much ballyhooed Gringrots coaster at Universal?

Both are coasters.

One is geared towards the family, Dwarfs, one for teens on up, Gringrots.

The endless Potter hype machine is running at a fever pitch and while the whole Potter section is if you get down to brass is nothing more than one new attraction and a couple repackaged, older rides that stunk in the first place, anything can possibly help, but the place is extremely tiny, you can literally jog a 2 minute after dinner fart and get through the whole thing, but Universal has a dubious master plan at work here...

Universal is forcing people to buy park to park tickets now to experience all of Potter. It seems like a desperate money grab that the Universal loyal fail to mention.

Try this one on for size, what if Disney made the New Fantasyland section a new ticketed area that required the price of a full park admission to experience the new attractions they just built? That's exactly what Universal is doing with the new Potter area. Color me not impressed but more perturbed at Comcast doing such a thing. Comcast has always stated they want more of Disney's pie, charging people double for the complete Potter is pretty low.

Seven Dwarfs, on the other hand, is located in the jewel of Florida called the Magic Kingdom. I have rode it, its good, its not great, but its good.

Universal will have the more gaudy attraction, but Disney will have the people simply because based on the TEA attendance figures from last year, Magic Kingdom still outdraws IOA by over 2 to 1. More like 2.5 to 1. For Universal, and the Universal fanboi's who really thought IOA was going to outdraw a Disney park last year, yes thoughts of endless fail like that keep me warm at night in bed, you could make a simple mathematical equation that its virtually impossible for Gringrots to be a success compared to Seven dwarfs.

You read it here first, Seven Dwarfs will have more people riding it that Gringrots, its impossible based on the facts to think otherwise, and thinking that, could Potter, even as its popularity is starting to stumble, be considered a possible flop with no long term stability?

In laymans terms, the theme park wars never started, Disney never had a threat.

Jimmy Thick- 8 million at IOA? ROTFL!!! Some clown owes the Make a Wish Foundation 100 dollars!!!

[MW1218]

Well, if you get down to Brass, New Fantasyland is one ride (geared more towards kids), a repurposed attraction from California, a quick service restaurant and a table service restaurant (quick service during the day.)

If you're going to reduce everything that Universal has done to its base, you should do the same for new Fantasyland.

[BrerGnat]

Well, what are you really asking here: which RIDE will have more riders? -OR- which park will have more visitors?

Obviously MK will have the most visitors. It always does.

But when it comes to the rides, I believe Gringotts will have a higher hourly rider capacity vs. SDMT. There is also the Hogwarts Express which is a ride, and will likely have a fairly high hourly capacity as well. I think without a doubt, Gringotts will host more RIDERS than SDMT, when compared across similar parameters (park operating hours being the same, etc.) There is also the problem that SDMT has to go offline during rain or lightning in the area. Gringotts won't have that restriction.

I love Disney. I generally don't care for Universal, but I think the debut of the new HP land and attractions will be MUCH more successful than new Fantasy land. FWIW, the Gringotts ride has a pretty low height requirement. I want to say 40". So, technically, it will be available to a similar demographic as SDMT.

[joonyer]

. . . . Universal is forcing people to buy park to park tickets now to experience all of Potter. It seems like a desperate money grab that the Universal loyal fail to mention.

Try this one on for size, what if Disney made the New Fantasyland section a new ticketed area that required the price of a full park admission to experience the new attractions they just built? That's exactly what Universal is doing with the new Potter area. Color me not impressed but more perturbed at Comcast doing such a thing. Comcast has always stated they want more of Disney's pie, charging people double for the complete Potter is pretty low.

[/I]

Low? Not if the demand is there. it's just good business, even genius on Universal's part. Creating a product that people will pay extra for is the essence of smart business. They are not harming anyone. Nothing unethical about it. If one doesn't think buying a park-to-park pass is worth riding the Hogwarts's Express, then they can choose to not pay for it. And by the way, Disney doesn't let guests park hop for free, either.

And the Potter deal at USO/IOA and the new Fantasyland are not exactly comparable. With the park-to-park pass Universal is requiring to ride the Hogwarts Express, you not only get access to all the Potter themed areas/rides in both parks, you get access to everything, in all lands, in both parks. You may not be able to do everything in both parks in one day, but you get a lot more than just the Potter stuff.

It would be more comparable if Disney were to create a themed Park-to-Park attraction say, between MK and Epcot or between Epcot and DHS (close together), and then made you use a park hopper pass (or other premium ticket) to ride between parks. I have to give Universal credit; spreading a single theme across two parks (helps that they are adjacent to each other) was a brilliant marketing strategy.

That being said, you may be right about 7DMT being the more popular attraction, if for no other reason that MK is the most heavily attended theme park in the world. But on the other hand, I can't imagine either 7DMT or the new Gringott's ride (or Forbidden Journey for that matter) operating at anything less than full capacity whenever they are open, at least for the next few years, anyway. There won't be any "walk-on" queues at either attraction.

The real question to be answered is: How many "new" guests will these attractions bring into the parks? They don't want just repeating regulars, both companies want new market share. Just because Disney is already "king-of the hill" doesn't mean they don't care about growth of their market share, or losing any part of their share to the competition.

[thejens]

Not taking sides, I love WDW and only recently tried Universal and surprisingly loved it too...but my 10 year old is DYING to go to the new Harry Potter ride and doesn't really care about the WDW attractions this year. I expected this from 16 year old, but not 10 year old.

I think I am the only one interested in 7 dwarves this year, so might hit Universal for a weekend and skip WDW this year. :(

[Jimmy Thick]

Well, if you get down to Brass, New Fantasyland is one ride (geared more towards kids), a repurposed attraction from California, a quick service restaurant and a table service restaurant (quick service during the day.)

If you're going to reduce everything that Universal has done to its base, you should do the same for new Fantasyland.

Almost everything in MK is repurposed from California.

But only at Universal Orlando has a new land, The Wizardly World of Potter whatever, has been promoted as a brand new area, but for those of us who we before the Potter turmoil, we knew that 2 of the "new" rides were just repackaged rides that were stinkers to begin with. I believe Universal tried to pull a fast one by fooling the public those rides were new when they were just repackaged. That's value engineering at its best. People like to talk about how Universal spent so little money building the Potter expansion, but the dirty is they just repackaged.


Jimmy Thick- And not even a good repackage, they should have called Madonna...

[Jimmy Thick]

Well, what are you really asking here: which RIDE will have more riders? -OR- which park will have more visitors?

Obviously MK will have the most visitors. It always does.

But when it comes to the rides, I believe Gringotts will have a higher hourly rider capacity vs. SDMT. There is also the Hogwarts Express which is a ride, and will likely have a fairly high hourly capacity as well. I think without a doubt, Gringotts will host more RIDERS than SDMT, when compared across similar parameters (park operating hours being the same, etc.) There is also the problem that SDMT has to go offline during rain or lightning in the area. Gringotts won't have that restriction.

I love Disney. I generally don't care for Universal, but I think the debut of the new HP land and attractions will be MUCH more successful than new Fantasy land. FWIW, the Gringotts ride has a pretty low height requirement. I want to say 40". So, technically, it will be available to a similar demographic as SDMT.

Ride capacity is nothing.

How many times have you gone to an attraction and every single seat has been filled?

Rare.

The best judge will be overall park attendance. Gringots will not stand a chance.

Simple little point of note...

Why do Disney rides need more maintenance? Simple, more people experience them than at Universal.

Jimmy Thick- LeFous Brew for me please...

[Jimmy Thick]

Yeah, I'm sure you do. ;)
Every time a fan thread about "Will Avatar/New FL be Disney's Potter-Swatter?"--depicting the Disney boardroom as some green-eyed Jeffrey Katzenberg, plotting away at nights for how to undercut their rival, instead of vice versa--some of us always like to bring up what's called "the Tiger Beat Syndrome".
You know, that fan magazine that constantly told junior-high fangirls about the feud that Justin Bieber was having this week with 1D?

It's one of the quirks we grow out of, that young fans tend to want to celebrate their loyalty by imagining the two biggest things battling it out for supremacy, like plastic dinosaurs.
Kirk vs. Picard...Original Trilogy vs. Prequels...Butterbeer vs. LeFou's Brew.
Disney doesn't care about "park rivalries", they know they've already gotten Universal whipped about the town for hotel-resort experience, and that will bring guests coming back. And they also know their properties have longer-term value with families, rather than building up a lot of high-profile Harry Potter and Simpsons, and letting Jurassic Park collect dust.

Now, Sea World Orlando, OTOH, they're the ones sitting in the darkened room petting their white Persian cat, and clicking their ball bearings in one hand... :plot:

Personally, I can't wait for Avatar myself, its looks dashing from all the "leaked" blueprints I have seen. I especially like the blueprint where they clearly label a "bathroom" and wonder to myself, in my alone time, if I will be able to enjoy a sweeping moment, think the dramatic pan from the Sound of Music, where I will be able to do natures business amongst the blue skinned people from Avatar. I count the seconds, I really do...

Tigerbeat? Not sure I have ever consumed that periodical, I was more interested in anything featuring Diane Lane from the Outsiders back during my teen rag days. I also remember Leif Garret being my rival, but that's a little too personal...

Kirk, no contest. Shatner is like 80 and he looks like hes in his 70's, I hope he bottles what hes using.

Any Star Wars is good Star Wars, I don't do the whole fair-weather fan thing when it comes to such timeless cinema.

LeFous Brew for me. Butterbeer is much to sweet, drinking one would require a dentist visit for me, those people conned me out of 7 grand last year for a pulled tooth and a fake put in. Seven GRAND!!!

SeaWorld has never been the same since Blackfish, that movie wrecked them in my opinion. I haven't been there in years, my daughter is an animal person, so I guess that makes me an animal person by default.

Sorry for being lazy and not quoting you correctly, I'm a little on the tired side and I have some gaming to do...

Jimmy Thick- Pesky internet rumors...A former...WAIT WHAT!!!

[Jimmy Thick]

Low? Not if the demand is there. it's just good business, even genius on Universal's part. Creating a product that people will pay extra for is the essence of smart business. They are not harming anyone. Nothing unethical about it. If one doesn't think buying a park-to-park pass is worth riding the Hogwarts's Express, then they can choose to not pay for it. And by the way, Disney doesn't let guests park hop for free, either.

And the Potter deal at USO/IOA and the new Fantasyland are not exactly comparable. With the park-to-park pass Universal is requiring to ride the Hogwarts Express, you not only get access to all the Potter themed areas/rides in both parks, you get access to everything, in all lands, in both parks. You may not be able to do everything in both parks in one day, but you get a lot more than just the Potter stuff.

It would be more comparable if Disney were to create a themed Park-to-Park attraction say, between MK and Epcot or between Epcot and DHS (close together), and then made you use a park hopper pass (or other premium ticket) to ride between parks. I have to give Universal credit; spreading a single theme across two parks (helps that they are adjacent to each other) was a brilliant marketing strategy.

That being said, you may be right about 7DMT being the more popular attraction, if for no other reason that MK is the most heavily attended theme park in the world. But on the other hand, I can't imagine either 7DMT or the new Gringott's ride (or Forbidden Journey for that matter) operating at anything less than full capacity whenever they are open, at least for the next few years, anyway. There won't be any "walk-on" queues at either attraction.

The real question to be answered is: How many "new" guests will these attractions bring into the parks? They don't want just repeating regulars, both companies want new market share. Just because Disney is already "king-of the hill" doesn't mean they don't care about growth of their market share, or losing any part of their share to the competition.

We will get this tomorrow, this is good stuff to debate, but I'm tired, forgive me...

Jimmy Thick- Sleepy time, even for a titan such as myself...

[Goes4FastPass]

Garsh, why ask a discussion board of WDW fanatics if a non-WDW park should even exist?

I am glad there is competition. Is possible the Fantasy Land expansion would never have happened without Harry Potter at Universal Florida?

Members here moan about wristbands and booking 180 gays in advance being told how many premium experiences they can have per day or how a third child puts them in a whole new lodging category but many would never go near Universal Orlando no matter what they offered.

[BrerGnat]

Which new attraction will have more riders at any given time, the new Seven Dwarfs ride or the much ballyhooed Gringrots coaster at Universal?

[/I]

This is what you said. Then later you said "who cares about hourly capacity?" Isn't that exactly what you asked?

We get it. You think Disney is the King. They are. Numbers don't lie. But even Disney has to respect Universal's development as of late, particularly where HP is concerned. What they have been able to do in such a short period of time (compared to Disney) has been stunning. I saw many pictures and videos from last night's media event and the new HP land is nothing short of jaw droppingly spectacular.

Universal is not about being #1. They know they can never bring in the numbers that the Disney parks do. But any percentage of visitors that they gain is a win. Disney's attendance numbers, by comparison, are only seeing meager gains year to year while UOR is showing double digit gains. That is something Disney does not want to see. Sea World is on its way down, I think. Slowly but surely. Nothing to debate there. The numbers are telling the story.

Disney needs to do a LOT more to bring WDW up to its own standards. The place is slowly becoming a relic. Epcot and DHS both need serious work. Look at what the DCA revitalization has done for Disneyland. They are literally having to actively try and lower their park attendance, the place is so busy. But, I bet once HP opens at Universal Hollywood, Disney won't have such overcrowding issues. Just wait.

[kbean]

I keep seeing more and more people with universal bags in disney parks. And over hearing more people cutting disney trip short for universal. They're both great parks!!!

[PirateLover]

On the whole, WDW will always exceed Universal in overall park attendance. That being said, many people on these boards are venturing over to Universal for the first time with the opening of Wizarding World of Harry Potter, and finding themselves pleasantly surprised. I had zero desire to spend any of my vacation days at Universal before Harry Potter. Now, I do. On our Honeymoon in 2010 we spent 4 days at WDW and 2 days at Universal. With the new HP expansion, I plan to spend 2-3 days of my next Orlando vacation at Universal. If we didn't have a baby on the way, I'd probably be planning a long Universal-only weekend for August or September right now. I don't know one single person (talking in my real life here, not message board) who is planning a trip to WDW solely due to Snow White 7D Mine Train. I do have a number of friends (4 to be exact) who have already taken Universal-only trips to see Wizarding World, and I'm sure they'll be back to check out the expansion as soon as possible. :shrug:

[eandrsmom]

I find that for us, we love Disney because of the nostalgia. Both my husband and myself visited when we were children and we spent our honeymoon at Disney. We've visited with our kids since they were little and have great memories of our trips. That being said, I can tell you that we visited Universal last summer, and I was pleasantly surprised at their parks. Of course I didn't get that warm, nostalgic feeling that I get at Disney, but I have to admit that I was impressed with their attractions. It seems that Universal creates a concept, then makes it happen in a short amount of time. It seems like Disney takes forever to complete new things at their parks. How many years has it taken for the Avitar concept to break ground? How long did it take to complete Fantasyland? I think that right now, Universal's marketing strategy has an edge by adding new attractions and updating new ones. They are appealing to a generation of young adults that aren't concerned about the nostalgia.

[Tink1]

When IOA opened I had the chance to talk with one of the big wigs.

The things I remember him saying were:

they were not even going after the same demographic as Disney, they wanted the 8-18 yr old high tech kid who had not sat on Sunday nights watching Walt / World of Color on TV.

Knew they were not a week long destination (at that point) but were hoping for 2-4 days of a family vacation.

That they would try and bring new and exciting things to Universal Orlando as time goes on.

They were not Disney, did not want to be Disney and would never be Disney. There were no warm fuzzies associated with Uni and that was fine with them. Again, going after the 8-18 yr old techie.

Any influx of vacationers into the Orlando Theme Park Market was a good thing for every park. (and I have heard this from Disney as well)

I think Universal is very pleased with who and where they are....... as are their fans.

I cannot wait to see the new additions and re-experience the old!

Nanc

[MizMissy]

When IOA opened I had the chance to talk with one of the big wigs.

The things I remember him saying were:

they were not even going after the same demographic as Disney, they wanted the 8-18 yr old high tech kid who had not sat on Sunday nights watching Walt / World of Color on TV.

Knew they were not a week long destination (at that point) but were hoping for 2-4 days of a family vacation.

That they would try and bring new and exciting things to Universal Orlando as time goes on.

They were not Disney, did not want to be Disney and would never be Disney. There were no warm fuzzies associated with Uni and that was fine with them. Again, going after the 8-18 yr old techie.

Any influx of vacationers into the Orlando Theme Park Market was a good thing for every park. (and I have heard this from Disney as well)

I think Universal is very pleased with who and where they are....... as are their fans.

I cannot wait to see the new additions and re-experience the old!

Nanc

And ... it's working!!! My kids LOVE Universal. They are huge HP fans and thrill ride junkies. I am the only one in my family who still wanted a WDW trip and, frankly, with all the FP + nonsense with huge planning and long lines, I now no longer desire to go to WDW.

Universal is so easy. You can walk to everything. Express Pass is so wonderful, you almost feel guilty for how quickly you speed through the lines. The hotels are really nice. It is a very low stress vacation.

And, like PirateLover pointed out ... I do not know anyone who is planning a trip to WDW just to ride the short Dwarfs Mine Train ride, but I know plenty of people (my kids and most of their friends in that number) chomping at the bit for a Universal trip to see Diagon Alley, Hogwarts Express, and Gringotts Ride.

Maybe Hippogriff and Dueling Dragons are repurposed ... but there is nothing repurposed about Gringotts, Hogwarts Express and Diagon Alley. It's very new and very exciting.

I know this is a Disney site ... and I love Disney. I don't think you can only love one if you hate the other. Universal is doing great things. They are not Disney. They do not want to be Disney. But, they are gaining in market share and that is exactly what they want ...

[Tink1]

.......
Those making their Day One Potter pilgrimage likely won't be going over to the Toon area to ride Dudley Do-Right's Falls, or paying much attention to the Dr. Seuss area "in the way".



I actually think you would be surprised at the reports we get back from clients. They go for Potter, and end up doing it all and enjoying it all.


.......
It's an audacious bit of current-property licensing, and well produced with quite a few dollars, but, er...isn't that what Disney thought about American Idol?
("But Potter is forever!"...Suuuuure it is. Just like the Simpsons and Michael Bay's Transformers. )



Nothing is forever. (If you had wings, Mission to Mars, Magic Journeys, Mr Toad Wild ride, Horizons, Body Wars, Submarines etc.)

Every park, in every state and country, has to keep re-inventing itself for the next generation. Universal has this generations attention for now. It is not a bad thing! Disney will always be Disney, but even they have reinvented themselves time and time again.

'tis the nature of the beast.

Nanc

[MizMissy]

And that's the problem--Universal focuses attention so much on ONE attraction and hi-profile property at a time, they don't encourage guests to explore or immerse themselves in the rest of the park.
Those making their Day One Potter pilgrimage likely won't be going over to the Toon area to ride Dudley Do-Right's Falls, or paying much attention to the Dr. Seuss area "in the way".

It's an audacious bit of current-property licensing, and well produced with quite a few dollars, but, er...isn't that what Disney thought about American Idol? ;)
("But Potter is forever!"...Suuuuure it is. Just like the Simpsons and Michael Bay's Transformers. )

The original question was which ride will have more riders ... I think the real question is which "new addition" has more of a draw to pull guests into the parks .... New FantasyLand or Diagon Alley?

So, my point was that if you talk to people, Diagon Alley seems to be the bigger draw of "I want to see that new addition!" Yes, Universal is focusing all their advertising on showcasing their new addition ... Diagon Alley ... just like early last year, they focused their marketing on the new Despicable Me ride, then last summer, they focused their marketing on their new addition of Transformers ride ... and in the fall on Simpsons area of the parks. They keep focusing on all their new additions because they have a lot of new things in their parks to draw people in!

Like I said, Disney will always be Disney. But, Universal is growing ... and doing things well and quickly ... so the kids are saying "when we go to WDW, let's spend a few days over at that other park with all the NEW stuff" and that is exactly what Universal is after.

[DisneyBunch]

I find that for us, we love Disney because of the nostalgia. Both my husband and myself visited when we were children and we spent our honeymoon at Disney. We've visited with our kids since they were little and have great memories of our trips. That being said, I can tell you that we visited Universal last summer, and I was pleasantly surprised at their parks. Of course I didn't get that warm, nostalgic feeling that I get at Disney, but I have to admit that I was impressed with their attractions. It seems that Universal creates a concept, then makes it happen in a short amount of time. It seems like Disney takes forever to complete new things at their parks. How many years has it taken for the Avitar concept to break ground?
How long did it take to complete Fantasyland? I think that right now, Universal's marketing strategy has an edge by adding new attractions and updating new ones. They are appealing to a generation of young adults that aren't concerned about the nostalgia.

I agree 100%. My family have long been Hardcore Disney fanatics, but after my first and only trip to Universal last year, I have to admit I was impressed. Forbidden Journey is the best ride I have ever been on. Comcast is investing heavily into their parks, and it shows. They complete major projects in relatively short periods of time (compared to Disney). Why can't Disney do this? The answer is that they can, but why don't they? The answer is $$$. They don't want to spend it, yet they consistently increase the premium prices that they expect us to pay. Universal is not WDW and they never will be, but they are doing many things right. I will always love Disney, but they no longer will receive my family's visits twice yearly. In fact, we now only visit once every two to three years, and when we do, Universal is a destination along with WDW. I love Disney enough to know that they NEED to improve. We may be a drop in the ocean, as far as Disney is concerned, but rain falls one drop at a time. If it rains enough, Disney will notice.

[Arielfan98]

It's possible, but it's one coaster. Disney is making an Avatar and Star Wars land. No way is Universal taking the cake home!

[DizneyFreak2002]

It's possible, but it's one coaster. Disney is making an Avatar and Star Wars land. No way is Universal taking the cake home!
Really? They are making a Star Wars land? Where? Has the construction started? Concept art revealed?

Sorry, no Star Wars land coming any time soon... And Avatar cannot even be closely compared to Potter... No, not even close... Potter is much more popular and blows Avatar away... Plus, we have no clue what will actually be in Pandora... We know Soarin 2.0 will be there, the boat ride may or may not have been cancelled... We'll probably get a shop and a restaurant...

And it is more than a coaster.. In fact, it is more dark ride than coaster... it is an entire land, a well themed and immersive land... with 2 e ticket attractions, two very well produced shows, and of course the obligatory shops and dining... Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade has style and substance...

Universal has been taking the cake home the last few years... And eating it too...

[DonaldDuck1117]

Disney has the market share and they will always have the market share. Why? Combination of nostalgia (my parents took me as a kid so I am going to take my kids) and their ability to tie in the studios characters. Last look at the numbers say Disney is holding around 70% of the market and Universal around 20%. Look at those numbers. The gap is still gigantic even after Disney basically sitting on their hands for a decade and Universal being ultra aggressive.

Universal knows they are never going to win the market share. Disney could literally do noyhing for another 10 years and they would still win the market in Orlando. That's not to say Universal is building poor attractions, quite the opposite. Universal is killing it with their new rides. Has Disney built anything on the level of Universal's past few attractions? It pains me to say I don't think so.

Can Disney respond? Andolutely. They have money to spend to match,and beat, Universal's attractions-if they choose to spend it. Avatar Land has to be a hit, and not just 1 ride, they own possibly the most popular franchise in the history of film (star wars) and they only have 1 ride representing it-build a Star Wars land (studios needs new life) and while you are tearing up Studios why not rip out the Backlot Tour and expand Pixar Place? Cars Land OR build rides from several Pixar films. Build the Doors ride from Monsters, create an Incredibles ride, replicate the Crush coaster from France, or bring the new Ratatouille ride.

Disney owns the market and always will, but Universal is creating amazing attractions. If Disney wants to they can respond. I'm a Disney fan, but I'm an amusement park fan in general-competition is good for the tourist, so I'm excited to experience Universal's new toys.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Disney has the market share and they will always have the market share. Why? Combination of nostalgia (my parents took me as a kid so I am going to take my kids) and their ability to tie in the studios characters. Last look at the numbers say Disney is holding around 70% of the market and Universal around 20%. Look at those numbers. The gap is still gigantic even after Disney basically sitting on their hands for a decade and Universal being ultra aggressive.

Got to remember a few things though... While what you said is right, and no one ever denies this not to be true, the fact is, Universal was also badly mismanaged for many years when Blackstone (I think that is their name) owned them... They really didn't care about the parks, and man, did it show.. Poor maintenance, poor customer service, lack of everything... And even though IOA is probably the best themed theme park, Blackstone just didn't care... Not until they wanted to sell.. Then BOOM, they give JKR the vault for Potter... WDW had what, a 20 year, 25 year jump on Universal? They had size (though that is more of a curse today than a blessing)... Universal is still playing catch up, no doubt... But the gap isn't as far apart as people want to think... Comcast is set to change the experience for many in Universal...


Universal knows they are never going to win the market share. Disney could literally do noyhing for another 10 years and they would still win the market in Orlando. That's not to say Universal is building poor attractions, quite the opposite. Universal is killing it with their new rides. Has Disney built anything on the level of Universal's past few attractions? It pains me to say I don't think so.Again you are right... Universal/Comcast knows they won't top Magic Kingdom... They know they won't top the total attendance of WDW... They don't want to.. They don't need to... Where they are topping Disney is in generating income, taking away market share... They know (and anyone who thinks logically knows) they won't take full market share from WDW... They don't want to... They want to get more of the market share... The one theme park that will suffer the most though is Sea World...

Where Universal is winning, however, is the following: 1) pulling people from WDW only vacations... Yes, more and more people are now staying offsite than onsite, and this is affecting WDW hotel occupancy... 2) pulling people away from more days in WDW... And while no one will dare visit Orlando and not visit MK at least once, more days are in fact being lost from WDW theme parks than before... Disney wants you there every day... Not happening like that anymore... Orlando vacation demographics are changing... 3) income rations... Universal sales have increased dramatically... Not so in WDW... Listen to Rasulo or Iger during conference calls for earnings... Or read their SEC filings... They never state increased sales as a reason for increased earnings... They always attribute the increase in earnings due to the price increases... Yes, that's telling... I.E. more people spending more of their vacation budget at Universal than spending the entire budget in WDW...

This is Universal's goal, not over taking WDW in attendance... Though, they are right at the heels of DHS and DAK... it can be a real possibility Uni and or IOA over take DHS in 2014 or 2015 (though some industry insiders say IOA has already over taken DHS)...


Can Disney respond? Andolutely. They have money to spend to match,and beat, Universal's attractions-if they choose to spend it. Avatar Land has to be a hit, and not just 1 ride, they own possibly the most popular franchise in the history of film (star wars) and they only have 1 ride representing it-build a Star Wars land (studios needs new life) and while you are tearing up Studios why not rip out the Backlot Tour and expand Pixar Place? Cars Land OR build rides from several Pixar films. Build the Doors ride from Monsters, create an Incredibles ride, replicate the Crush coaster from France, or bring the new Ratatouille ride. They have had plans since, I think, 2008/2009 for Pixar Place expansion... Why haven't they done anything yet? Scared? No gumption? Cheap? Lax? Resting on laurels? Maybe a combo of all of the above... Management in Orlado just does not want to invest in anything that the public may enjoy... They want to cut (and they have been cutting for years now), they want to take away, they want to jack prices... The only thigns TDO has the stomach to approve are quick money grabs.. Like the DTD make over, like more and more DVC... Attractions? The pencil pusher MBAs see no return on investments in their formulas, so TDO says no... But Carsland, Hogsmeade, and soon Diagon Alley prove them wrong... Invest wisely and the money will flow.. $2 billion on rubber wrist bands and FP+ won't get the job done... Even Rasulo has admitted it will be years before they ever see a return on that investment... Hence the sudden play for more and more paid hard ticket events...


Disney owns the market and always will, but Universal is creating amazing attractions. If Disney wants to they can respond. I'm a Disney fan, but I'm an amusement park fan in general-competition is good for the tourist, so I'm excited to experience Universal's new toys.You have one of the most thought out, well written and factual, no nonsense posts I have read on this silly WDW vs Uni topic... I applaud you for your wisdom!!! Bravo!!!

[joanna71985]

I'm a huge fan of HP part one (went to the grand opening), and am looking forward to part two. I think Gringotts is going to be amazing. For me, Mine Train is...eh

[BrerGnat]

I'll just say this. I have a WDW trip on the horozon, but it's for Marathon Weekend in January. Sure, we will visit the parks while there but I'm not really super excited to be going back. On the other hand, I am dying to visit Universal to see all this HP stuff. Last time I went to Universal was in 2003. I was ho hum about it, obviously, since I have not gone back since. The first phase of HP was not enough, still, to make me go back again. However, with the new additions, THAT was enough and now I am planning a long weekend visit sometime in the next year. And I can't wait.
Mine Train? Eh. Looks cute and all but it has not convinced me to plan a trip to WDW to see it.

[Arielfan98]

Really? They are making a Star Wars land? Where? Has the construction started? Concept art revealed?

Sorry, no Star Wars land coming any time soon... And Avatar cannot even be closely compared to Potter... No, not even close... Potter is much more popular and blows Avatar away... Plus, we have no clue what will actually be in Pandora... We know Soarin 2.0 will be there, the boat ride may or may not have been cancelled... We'll probably get a shop and a restaurant...

And it is more than a coaster.. In fact, it is more dark ride than coaster... it is an entire land, a well themed and immersive land... with 2 e ticket attractions, two very well produced shows, and of course the obligatory shops and dining... Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade has style and substance...

Universal has been taking the cake home the last few years... And eating it too...

With all due respect I think that is a matter of opinion. My grandmother cannot ride any of the coasters in Potter World, but she can ride Soarin' and the new boat ride. I do think HP is cool, but it is a matter of opinion.

[BrerGnat]

Actually, the Gringotts ride isn't even a coaster. It is reportedly less intense than FJ.

[princessgirls]

As much as I enjoy all of the Traditional things at Disney, I come back also for new attractions...

Six Flags keeps things fresh with new rides every couple of years.

As Nancy said, It is the Nature of the Beast.
I hear that Universal did an amazing job with all aspects of Harry Potter from Disney "snobs" who own DVC's and are spending a few nights over at the Universal resorts to take in Harry Potter...Exactly what other posters have said...Less Days on Disney Property, in the parks, and spending their vacation dollars other than in WDW.

Julie:mickey:

[TheVBs]

I'm probably not qualified to jump in here, we've never been to Universal. We have been wanting to see HP land, but so far, have not wanted it enough to take away from any Disney days, or plan a separate trip for it.

It seems to me that both rides will have a big draw, but for different reasons. Lots of people will go on the new HP ride because they want to check out the whole addition at Universal. Lots of people will go on the new Mine ride, because lots and lots of people love to go, and go back to, Disney. These discussions always seem apples to oranges to me, but again, not having visited Universal, I don't know.

[DonaldDuckUSA]

Avartar-land? I'm so unimpressed. Honestly. Its no longer relevant.

I hope priority goes to Star Wars land. At least that's a proven franchise. Plus, Hollywood Studios has close to nothing relevant to offer. If it weren't for ToT, Rockin' Rollercoaster and Prime Time, hubby and I wouldn't go. Disney would be foolish to not take a page out of Universal's book and totally Harry Potter-land Hollywood Studios.

[BrerGnat]

Avartar-land? I'm so unimpressed. Honestly. Its no longer relevant.

I hope priority goes to Star Wars land. At least that's a proven franchise. Plus, Hollywood Studios has close to nothing relevant to offer. If it weren't for ToT, Rockin' Rollercoaster and Prime Time, hubby and I wouldn't go. Disney would be foolish to not take a page out of Universal's book and totally Harry Potter-land Hollywood Studios.

I 100% agree with everything you said.

[texas211]

Really? They are making a Star Wars land? Where? Has the construction started? Concept art revealed?

Sorry, no Star Wars land coming any time soon... And Avatar cannot even be closely compared to Potter... No, not even close... Potter is much more popular and blows Avatar away... Plus, we have no clue what will actually be in Pandora... We know Soarin 2.0 will be there, the boat ride may or may not have been cancelled... We'll probably get a shop and a restaurant...

And it is more than a coaster.. In fact, it is more dark ride than coaster... it is an entire land, a well themed and immersive land... with 2 e ticket attractions, two very well produced shows, and of course the obligatory shops and dining... Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade has style and substance...

Universal has been taking the cake home the last few years... And eating it too...

Totally agree. Hands down, Diagon Alley will be insane compared to anything Disney an throw out. Avatar land... yeah, like Apollo vs Drago... Not even a comparison.

Star Wars land, I hope, but who knows. They should build a Cars Land too. That is the only thing DL has that is totally awesome. In fact, that would be way cooler than Avatar land.. Course, IMHO, AK needs a lot of something to be worthwhile.

[DonaldDuck1117]

Avatar will be relevant when they release the three(?) sequels.

[Mfarquar]

Avatar will be relevant when they release the three(?) sequels.

Unfortunately, we have quite the wait - 2016, 2017 and 2018. That is, of course, if James Cameron can stay on time with #2 (good luck with that). So, I'm not exactly holding my breath for a follow-up to a movie that was nothing more than a Pocahontas/Fern Gully mash-up to me.

Wish Disney would start moving on Star Wars. I'm not even much of a Star Wars fan (same goes for Harry Potter), but like Potter (and maybe even more so), it has INSANE potential.

We were going to Disney at least 1 time per year for 10 - 11 night trips. We used to go to Universal just 1 - 2 days out of our vacation while staying on-site at Disney. Since Disney has slowed down with development, we've ended up scaling back our time at Disney. We miss the days where there was 1 E-ticket attraction opening per year. So, Universal has won us over and we have visited every single year since 2005 (and shifted to stay on-site in 2007, 2010, 2012, 2013 and upcoming 2014 - we normally would have stayed at Disney).

Now, our vacations are FAR more relaxed at the deluxe Universal resorts (which, I am happy to report, I just booked with a code for $170 a night). There's something about well-appointed rooms, getting restaurant reservations without blinking an eye, and going to a pool where they hand out chilled towels and cold, fruit infused water before heading out to the parks and using my on-site guest status to go to the front of the lines. We come back from vacation refreshed and relaxed (despite experiencing some fantastic, cutting-edge rides and staying out very late at their Halloween event that CHANGES every year).

We spent 5 days and 6 nights at Universal on-site last year and did a day trip to Hollywood Studios, mainly for the Tower of Terror, Rockin' Rollercoaster and Toy Story.

I love Disney beyond belief, but I think they are taking their loyal customers for granted with few updates, empty attraction buildings and increased hotel costs. It breaks my heart that Disney has done little as of late to evidence that they are the foremost authority on producing the most mind-blowing, technical, cutting-edge rides.

The result? This loyal Disney fan is speaking with her pocketbook spending time and money at Universal. We'll be back to Disney for a prolonged period when there are improvements instead of cuts.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Totally agree. Hands down, Diagon Alley will be insane compared to anything Disney an throw out. Avatar land... yeah, like Apollo vs Drago... Not even a comparison.

Star Wars land, I hope, but who knows. They should build a Cars Land too. That is the only thing DL has that is totally awesome. In fact, that would be way cooler than Avatar land.. Course, IMHO, AK needs a lot of something to be worthwhile.

Did you see the line of people waiting for Diagon Alley soft openings (which aren't happening yet)? They totaled in the 1000's.. AND THAT IS JUST FOR RUMORED SOFT OPENINGS... Yes, this is going to be huge...

Were there 1000's of people standing in front of 7D waiting for softs? Nah... Will there be 1000's of people waiting for Avatarland in 2017, 18, 19, 20??? nah...

Will there be 1000s of people standing around waiting for Star Wars soft openings in 2020, oh more than likely yes...

Potter is a beast... Star Wars is a beast... Avatar? Not so much, more like a blue alien kittie cat...

[kbean]

Blue alien kitty cats.... you nailed that one. Now i never wanna see avatar!

[Mfarquar]

Potter is a beast... Star Wars is a beast... Avatar? Not so much, more like a blue alien kittie cat...


HAHAHAHAA well said! This is a perfectly humorous yet accurate analogy.

[DonaldDuck1117]

You guys can keep saying "if" on the Avatar sequels all you want-as if by repeating it over and over will make it true-but they are being made. Disney has to do a good job with that land. It has to be an answer to Universal. Doesn't have to be *the* answer, but an answer none the less. It can't just be one ride and a restaurant and shops. It has to be more. That secondary boat ride has to happen. Also, take a cue from Universal (the horror!) and come up with creative new food choices.

Disney has to flex some creative muscle-and do it in a timely fashion. Universal cranks out attractions and lands in a timely fashion. Disney takes 5 years to open New Fantasyland. I think that's the most frustrating thing in my opinion. Disney announces a ride then takes 2 years to open it. Meanwhile Universal creates Transformers in what? 10 months?

[joonyer]

I watched "The Making of Diagon Alley" TV special on NBC last night. Although the full details of the "Escape from Gringott's" ride were not fully revealed, the amount of detail and immersive theming they put into this area appears to be incredible and sets a new standard for state of the art theme park "lands". I can't wait to experience it first hand in December.

[DonaldDuck1117]

My hope is that the Potterlands actually wake Disney up a bit and we can get a "theme park war" going between Disney and Universal with each trying to out do the other. That would be great for the tourist. Kind of like the "coaster wars" of the 90s and early 00s where every year parks where building bigger and faster coasters.

Ah, one can dream. :number1:

[Mfarquar]

My hope is that the Potterlands actually wake Disney up a bit and we can get a "theme park war" going between Disney and Universal with each trying to out do the other. That would be great for the tourist. Kind of like the "coaster wars" of the 90s and early 00s where every year parks where building bigger and faster coasters.

Ah, one can dream. :number1:


I could not agree with you more! I want a total theme park war! Then, I'll just have to book double the time and split it between the two properties.

My fear for Disney is that Avatar has hit quite a few snags and is STILL in pre-production. As in, despite the orignal filming schedules, they have yet to record even one shot at this point.

I say onto Star Wars! I think Disney could bring us something that no one has ever seen before. I would love this to be the first battle of the theme park wars!!

[Mfarquar]

Interesting to note the absolute mania around the Gringott's Bank ride this morning at Universal. Last I heard, it was a 4 - 5 hour wait for the ride and a 1.5 hour wait just to get into the Diagon Alley area. Universal started handing out reservations to those in line to return later in the day. The video on the local Orlando news is incredible.

Harry Potter fans were lining up prior to 5am in costume, some openly weeping with joy when they got to experience the area (easy to find the footage via a Google search). This is some intense brand loyalty! haha

It is abundantly clear that this new area is bringing people specifically to Universal for this attraction/land.

[vallerii]

Having fell victim to the craze over the forbidden journey and scheduling trip there years ago, all I'll say is capacity doesn't mean a thing when they can't manage their crowds and their rides break constantly.
We got stuck on the Forbidden Journey for over 2 hours (yes 2 hours!) and when we finally "escaped" they laughed and asked us if we enjoyed the "backstage tour" um...no. My neck was killing me from being sideways for over an hour. They offered us NOTHING other than front of the ride passes (which we already had for staying on property) When we asked if there was anything else they could do the customer service girl at the front literally freaked out on us.
Couple that with a million other horrible customer service issues that trip, grumpy ride operators, that stupid locker system they have for rides, and lines that went nowhere and people utterly confused with no staff to help them Universal has NOTHING on Disney.

I adore the Loew's resorts, but Universal Parks have completely lost any allure they'd ever have for me and until they fix their park management issues, ****** employee attitudes and utter disorganization I think they'll get people in to try it because the themeing really is cool, but they sure won't get the repeat visits once people associate Universal vacations with tons of stress and chaos.

Anyhow....Avatar land, I just.don't.get They ought to scrap the entire idea and just go with a Star Wars theme area.

[joonyer]

I understand that the Escape from Gringott's ride is not running at full capacity today, but the latest wait times I've seen posted this afternoon was 450 minutes! That's seven and a half HOURS! That's just insane. And there was a 2-3 hour wait just to get into Diagon Alley, before you could even get in the queue for Gringott's.

Either USO has mismanaged the opening (too soon maybe, before the ride was really ready?)

OR this new attraction/land is going to be the #1 smash new opening hit of theme park history.

[DizneyFreak2002]

I understand that the Escape from Gringott's ride is not running at full capacity today, but the latest wait times I've seen posted this afternoon was 450 minutes! That's seven and a half HOURS! That's just insane. And there was a 2-3 hour wait just to get into Diagon Alley, before you could even get in the queue for Gringott's.

Either USO has mismanaged the opening (too soon maybe, before the ride was really ready?)

OR this new attraction/land is going to be the #1 smash new opening hit of theme park history.
Wasn't mismanaged at all... Not like Hogsmeade, which, again, caught them totally off guard and yes, mismanaged... They were very prepared this time around...

You are looking at the new gold standard of theme park lands (outside of DisneySea but that is in Japan, not the U.S.)...

[Mfarquar]

(Y'know, like Diagon Alley...) :razz:



I've seen enough corporate wars to know that it's the CUSTOMERS who ultimately end up as the bombed-out refugees, while the hostility between the foreign power states continue. :(

Well, I still feel like a bombed-out refugee with tickets going up from $63 per adult in 2006 to visit the Magic Kingdom to $95 with no true E-attractions being added since then (using Expedition Everest as the last E-ticket at AK).

At least during the wars we got new rides for our money!

The current situation is an example of a company shifting is revenue structure and focus.

If they had broken ground on Star Wars or advancing with Avatar at this point, I wouldn't be complaining...

[joonyer]

There are more letters in the alphabet than E.

Yes, but it's hard to justify spending 33% more on park tickets for A, B, C, or even Ds.

[Mfarquar]

Yes, but it's hard to justify spending 33% more on park tickets for A, B, C, or even Ds.

Precisely my point!

[DonaldDuck1117]

Universal can get away with building a land with one ride (except they didnt. They also added the Hogwarts Express ride so that's 2) because they also added shops with unique items and places to eat unique foods and drinks.

Also, Universal has added Transformers, Minion Mayhem, Simpsons ride and mini land, and Rip Ride Rocket in the past decade. Basically they are adding attractions left and right.

Disney had the Disney Decade under Eisner...well we are very much experiencing a Universal Decade.

And if Disney and Universal have a theme park war we get a ton of new toys to play with!

[joonyer]

Precisely my point!

And my math was off. It's actually more than a 50% increase.

[TracyL]

When your "new ride" is a new movie on the same video screens and a lick of fresh paint on the old ride system, it's easy to crank them out fast.

Yes, the Harry Potter stuff is terrific, and it's having the desired effect for them. Assuming the desired effect is that you could shoot a cannon through any other part of Islands of Adventure on any given weekday, while you can't even move in Hogsmeade. (I'm sure it's busier now that summer has come, but during the school year, man was it quiet in IOA, other than the HP area.)

I'm delighted that they are doing cool stuff, especially the HP stuff. Looking forward to getting a look at that -- in the fall, after the craziness has died down a little. But if my last few visits were any indication, they are still light years away from providing the guest experience I want. The place is still too much concrete, not enough trees, surly employees, long lines, and except for the HP spaces, very mediocre theming.

Then again, I'm totally not the audience. I'll leave Universal to all you thrill ride junkies My idea of the perfect theme park is one where I can have a fantastic day without ever even going on a ride. Give me a rose garden and a barbershop quartet and I'm happy! :silly:

[MNNHFLTX]

I'm delighted that they are doing cool stuff, especially the HP stuff. Looking forward to getting a look at that -- in the fall, after the craziness has died down a little. But if my last few visits were any indication, they are still light years away from providing the guest experience I want. The place is still too much concrete, not enough trees, surly employees, long lines, and except for the HP spaces, very mediocre theming.
Really? We were just there I May and found personnel very friendly and helpful and the theming throughout both parks to be quite good. I realize that everyone has their own take on things, it just seemed like such a blanket statement.

As much as I want to see the new HP stuff we will wait on another trip too, until March, maybe? It's just too crazy right now.

[Mfarquar]

When your "new ride" is a new movie on the same video screens and a lick of fresh paint on the old ride system, it's easy to crank them out fast.
Y

You mean Star Wars (and upgrade), Body Wars (RIP), Captain EO, Honey I Shrunk the Audience, and Muppets 4-D (LOVE this one)?

These are different variations of the same rides. Disney has been doing this forever and does it with their popular rides developed for other parks and then rolls out cheaper versions in Florida. Going that route of logic, you could make the argument that the Disney dark rides over the years are virtually the same ride system as well. It's the combination of components of the ride that creates the overall user experience.

Yes, Simpsons uses the same ride system upgraded from Back to the Future, but I don't see how that's any different than what Disney does. As someone who has ridden Spiderman and Transformers, they are very different experiences, with Transformers being a definitive 2.0 version of the system. Universal has been cranking out rides very high on the fun factor.

Harry Potter uses a ride system that was never before used in such a way (KUKA robotic arms on a Busbar system - the KUKA arms are similar to what is used to build cars in American factories - they are highly intricate in movement and robotic fine motor skills), so that is indisputably cutting edge. Disney saw these at the IAPA convention in Orlando along with Universal. Word on the street is that they passed making a big investment in it because of the cost. So, they use them in EPCOT in Innoventions for a virtual experience, but is it is like the build your own rollercoaster attraction experience at Disney Quest - no Busbar, just stationary. Can't speak for Gringott's as I will not try it until September!

[Mfarquar]

Which sounds nice, until you remember what a child does with a new toy after he plays with it once. :badpc:
(If you're not sure, just try going uphill to the Jurassic Park section, where there's more elbow room--Have they fixed that place back up yet?)

)

I guess I was a kid in the minority, but I liked playing over and over with the best toys and had definitive favorites.

Universal rides have GREAT re-ridability. This is the reason why so many families are spending additional days in these parks and nights at the Universal hotels. With Forbidden Journey going 4 years strong and continual increased attendance numbers, it seems to be handling repeat business just fine. Despite being a rabid Disney fan, I've been enjoying re-riding Universal rides over and over again (with the exception of Twister and Terminator - need to be overhauled).

And yes, they fixed the broken animatronics at Jurassic Park two seasons ago (we used to call them the zombie dinosaurs cause their skin was kinda of undead looking). Now only if the Disco Yetti would be fixed after so many years of living under a strobe light!

[Mfarquar]

Which means that Universal is discovering--just now--what Walt knew since 1955:
A coaster will get someone into Six Flags, but the 360-Rule feeling of actually BEING somewhere else will make them feel as if they're in that someplace different they always imagined to be.


I couldn't agree more! That's why the Universal rollercoasters are incredible and different than what you'll find elsewhere. Rip Ride and Rockit is a totally customizable experience - even with hidden musical tracks and inversions where cars travel outside the tracks. Try it out - it's an invigorating experience!

Universal only has 2 other real coasters - Hulk and Dragon Challenge. Both unique, usually very smooth and high on fun. You are completely immersed in the land of Marvel or Potter and then you feel like you are 100% thrown into a high-adrenaline experience that fits with the visual storyline. As a coaster freak - you can't compare these to some of the Six Flags offerings (ESPECIALLY Six Flags New England). Universal knows it doesn't have to build the biggest, highest or fastest coasters in the U.S. (Six Flags, Cedar Point, Busch Gardens, and Kings Dominion have this market) - they just know how to make some of the most fun ones!

[EeyoresBestFriend]

I can't believe the amount of ride bashing for US re imagined rides here. At least they aren't shutting down rides to make bigger meet n greets for characters. Seriously what's so different between the 7.5 hour line up for Gringotts ride or the 4.5 hour lineup to meet a couple of Princess' ? They're both stupid long lines.

I like Universal - I always will - and I love what they are doing with the parks.

I like Disneyworld - I always will - although I'm not sure what they are doing with their parks.

I will visit both and have fun at each - appreciating what they offer in their own way. If ya don't like them, don't go. Nuff said. :bored:

[baldburke]

My kids tell me HP was so fifth grade...

WDW is timeless!

[DonaldDuck1117]

Except there is a whole new batch of fifth graders set to just discover Harry Potter...just as they are also set to discover Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Ariel, etc.


Universal grabbed a timeless IP and they are doing a great job. Bravo to them. Time to respond Disney:mickey: