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View Full Version : Disney is creating a World of Haves & Have-Nots



SelfmadeWade
07-30-2013, 01:41 PM
Yes, I am aware that Fastpass+ is not fully operating for us to judge it yet, but as I read more and more about it, it occurs to me that Disney World is creating a Caste System in its theme parks.

Within in the next year or so - Put simply: If you stay at a Disney hotel, you get to have Fastpass - and if you stay off property, well, sorry, go stand in that two hour line. ( But first pay us a $100 to get into the park to stand in that line).

I know that Disney is operating a business and the almighty dollar rules. I also know that many will argue that there is nothing wrong with offering perks such as Fastpass to entice people to stay on property.

Here is the problem: Fastpass has worked FAIRLY for years in the parks where everyone was treated equally. Now, Disney is stating out loud that you will have to pay ( by staying at Disney Resort) to get to have it. Calling it "magical" does not remove its stink.

There are MANY, MANY people who can barely scrape enough money together to get their family to Florida to stay in a cheap hotel to get their kids to Disney World. In my opinion, treating those who don't stay on property as second-class citizens while they are actually in the parks can only lead to disaster. It may take some time, but eventually, the "day guests" will stop coming. Why would they pay to go somewhere where they feel inferior?

faline
07-30-2013, 02:23 PM
I'm not saying that Disney should create a better system for those staying on-site than for those staying off-site but, it does seem to me, that this is becoming standard practice in any number of theme parks. Stay at Universal to get front of the line access. Go to another theme park not associated with a hotel and buy a front of the line pass.

Giggy
07-30-2013, 02:36 PM
Yes, I am aware that Fastpass+ is not fully operating for us to judge it yet, but as I read more and more about it, it occurs to me that Disney World is creating a Caste System in its theme parks.

Within in the next year or so - Put simply: If you stay at a Disney hotel, you get to have Fastpass - and if you stay off property, well, sorry, go stand in that two hour line. ( But first pay us a $100 to get into the park to stand in that line).

I know that Disney is operating a business and the almighty dollar rules. I also know that many will argue that there is nothing wrong with offering perks such as Fastpass to entice people to stay on property.

Here is the problem: Fastpass has worked FAIRLY for years in the parks where everyone was treated equally. Now, Disney is stating out loud that you will have to pay ( by staying at Disney Resort) to get to have it. Calling it "magical" does not remove its stink.

There are MANY, MANY people who can barely scrape enough money together to get their family to Florida to stay in a cheap hotel to get their kids to Disney World. In my opinion, treating those who don't stay on property as second-class citizens while they are actually in the parks can only lead to disaster. It may take some time, but eventually, the "day guests" will stop coming. Why would they pay to go somewhere where they feel inferior?

Got to say I agree with this. We have never liked the pay extra system Universal use.

It's fair enough that people can expect to get what they pay for in terms of extra magic hours, nice hotels, etc. Don't agree with making it at the expense of other guests though as is the case here.

Obviously FP+ is here to stay now but still quietly hoping Disney will come up with a fairer system on how to organise them. :secret:

DVC2004
07-30-2013, 02:45 PM
Well unfortunately, all I can say is that Disney is for profit, publicly traded business. They can do whatever they please to be profitable, and if people will pay for it then they will continue to make business decisions that will make them money. I don't see how this can be looked at as fair or unfair in the eyes of the consumer. It simply just "is". While many people have fallen on tough times in this country, Disney has a global customer base. Does it mean it will price people out of vacations? Probably but it also looks like Disney is willing to take that chance.

When I go to Universal, I am aware that I have to pay extra for express pass, or stay on property, or I have the choice to wait in line. There have been times I have opted not to pay extra and just wait. It's not unfair, those are my choices. I can pay more and save time or I can opt not to pay more and wait the old fashioned way. I don't feel like a second class citizen or that others are more important. The power is in my choice of the options given.

A vacation really isn't something that everyone can afford. I have relatives that have never taken their children to Disney, and probably never will, because even a basic trip is out of their price range. If people can't afford, they don't go. I don't know what else to say about it. I am not trying to come off as uncaring, that is just the way the world is. Lots of things aren't fair so to speak. Disney isn't any different.

mom2morgan
07-30-2013, 03:01 PM
I think Walt would absolutely agree with the OP - I suspect he'd be rolling over in his grave about this. My understanding has always been that one thing Disney prides themselves on is being fair and equal and not like all those other parks. Besides, I've also heard it argued here that a perk for on-site guests wouldn't work well ANYWAY since 80% of the Disney guests are already staying on site! It's not like Universal where only a small percentage are, and so the head of the line privilege provides REAL time savings benefits.

Brooklynos
07-30-2013, 03:13 PM
We choose to stay on-site and will continue to do so, however we understand that this is at a cost. We have started to plan on going every other year for a full week instead of just a few days every year because of the cost going up year after year. Yes, on-site has perks but I would hope if Fastpass becomes a cost/charge item, that those off-site will have the same opportunity to buy it as we will by having it included with our package (since I'm sure the cost of it will raise on-site prices). Plus they'll probably still pay less off-site. If Disney chooses to charge for it we will still go and vacation there as it is the most magical place changes and all for us but we'll just have to budget it in. I know we won't let this steal our magic for our trips. :mickey:

joonyer
07-30-2013, 03:16 PM
I have a little different viewpoint. Never mind the FP costs or incentives, guests have always had a pay a pretty hefty price of admission to Disney's theme parks. For every one of the many, many families that can barely afford park admission (and a cheap motel), there are 10 times that many families (or more) who can never even dream of a Disney vacation because of the basic costs of theme park admission alone.

Does that mean Disney has created a "caste" system of families who can afford to visit Disney parks and those who could never afford it? I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But the world has always had haves and have-nots. You could already say that the classification of Disney's resorts is already a "caste" system. You know, the poor stay at the values, the middle class at the moderates and the wealthy stay at the Deluxe hotels. Do guests who can only afford to stay in a the All-stars resort feel "inferior" to those who stay at the Grand Floridian or Polynesian resorts? Maybe so, but I'm just happy to be there at the dinky All-Star Sports motel.

I don't like Disney's "money grab" tactics any more than anyone else, but I'm still grateful that I am one of the "haves" who can afford to take my family there once in a while. I just don't buy the argument that the implementation of a "pay-for-play" FP system will make anyone feel "inferior" or that it will be a disaster. Life is not "fair" or "equal" anywhere else in the world and it has never been "equal" at WDW either. LIfe (and fun at a theme park) is too precious to let someone else with more money spoil it for me.

Stu29573
07-30-2013, 04:57 PM
I feel the value of a WDW vacation has been dropping for years. For those who say its fair because Disney is a business are missing the point. In any business, when the value of the product drops in relation to the price, there are problems coming. Witness Detroit.

Say what you will about the "what would Walt do" crowd, one thing is for certain; Walt wanted his customers to get a good value for their money. I feel he would cringe at the shoddy treatment people routinely get at WDW these days.

Saying that you are just happy that you are one of the "haves" and can afford whatever Disney feeds you is troubling. Its that sort of mindset that in decreasing value overall. It also smacks of ivory towers and "let them eat cake," which no one finds attractive.

I can only hope and pray that Disney remembers the middle class families who have for years poured thousands into their coffers in the ( apparently mistaken) assumption that as a company Disney stood for something a bit more noble than typical dog eat dog business.

If not, then we can just say we were fooled since we were children and simply walk away; leaving Disney to serve cake to the ivory tower class...

MW1218
07-30-2013, 04:59 PM
It's fair enough that people can expect to get what they pay for in terms of extra magic hours, nice hotels, etc. Don't agree with making it at the expense of other guests though as is the case here.


I don't see how offering a couple of FastPasses a day is any different from allowing Hotel guests only to be in the parks an hour early, or 2 hours later. People don't seem to have a problem with EMH, but now this is coming along and people are unhappy? Not sure why.

buzznwoodysmom
07-30-2013, 05:12 PM
This type of system has not stopped me from going to Universal, and it likely won't stop me from going to Disney.

First of all I don't ever see us not staying on Disney property for a WDW vacation so it's not something that would potentially affect me as an off site guest vs. on site guest. I'll always be an onsite guest.

Now back to Universal. The ONLY reason we ever decided to even give the Universal resorts a try was because of this very system! We stayed onsite for 2 nights before a WDW vacation so that we could get free front of the line passes. To me it's smart business. If offsite guests were able to get front of the line passes at Universal chances are we would have never tried their resorts. Now we really can't see visiting Universal any other way. They got our business by having the onsite "perk".

As for the long standing argument that "Walt would be turning in his grave". This comes up every time someone doesn't agree with something Disney does. Let's keep in mind that Walt was a business man. And also that times have changed drastically since his passing. What he may have thought he'd never do back then, surely would have changed with the times.

11290
07-30-2013, 05:15 PM
The premise that off-site guests do not have access to FP+ as stated is false. Day guests, off-site guests and those choosing not to reserve a FP in advance will have the opportunity to receive a FP in the park just as they do now, just through a different method.

There will be "stations" (currently the only one that I know being tested on a limited basis in MK is in Town Square Theater) throughout the parks with iPads and Guest Relations CM's available to "book" their FastPasses for that day, just the same as those using the MDE app will be able to, just that they may not have quite as much choice for times but will be able to see the availability on the iPad. Also, there will be a wider choice for attractions, events and so on, for selecting FP's.

FWIW: I'm not a big fan of all the RFID, Magic Bands and FP+, but trust me, it's here to stay for a long time. As a CM that works at MK turnstiles from time to time, while we may not like the "way that it works" right now, it is what it is, and don't think from this post that I am a cheerleader for FP+.

Forgot to add: if you buy your park tickets "ahead" of your trip, not matter where you are staying, you should be able to link your tickets (under most circumstances - some not) to the MDE app and reserve your FP+ times just the same as those staying on-site, at least that is the way I understand it, although things change all the time.

lightyearfan
07-30-2013, 05:37 PM
The premise that off-site guests do not have access to FP+ as stated is false. Day guests, off-site guests and those choosing not to reserve a FP in advance will have the opportunity to receive a FP in the park just as they do now, just through a different method.

There will be "stations" (currently the only one that I know being tested on a limited basis in MK is in Town Square Theater) throughout the parks with iPads and Guest Relations CM's available to "book" their FastPasses for that day, just the same as those using the MDE app will be able to, just that they may not have quite as much choice for times but will be able to see the availability on the iPad. Also, there will be a wider choice for attractions, events and so on, for selecting FP's.

Me and dw agree 100% with this, i mean really , Disney isn't holding a gun to anyone's head saying you vacation here or else. Universal does it and yet no one complains, Disney will get criticised no matter what they do because they are the premier Theme Park destination . if your not stayin on property you'll still be able to do fp but in a different vain, thats all it won't be exculisve just to Disney Resort Guests, and ya you know something if you can afford to stay on property you should be able to get PERKS, and if fp+ is 1 of them then so be it.

Victor

Quadstriker
07-30-2013, 05:39 PM
If you pay more, you receive benefits. This worldwide concept isn't something that Disney is immune to. Fastpasses aren't some sacred cow that won't be touched by business factors.

Now whether you feel the cost of a Disney vacation is worth the price, that's a decision for every person to make. Every business worth its salt continues to strive for that inflection point of maximizing income by balancing their price vs. how many people are willing to pay it.

The "Walt rolling over in his grave" stuff regarding fastpasses giving ride access to certain people over others gives me a chuckle. Two words: TICKET. BOOKS. If Intercot was around in the 1950s would we be wading through posts of "Oh noes someone spent more money at Disneyland than me and bought more ticket books and they can go on more rides!"

Stu29573
07-30-2013, 05:48 PM
Wow, the amount of denial here is astounding. People, the value is dropping. If we dont hold Disney to their own standards they are doomed. This isnt about FP+ in particular. Its about the total experience. Wake up!!!!

SelfmadeWade
07-30-2013, 06:10 PM
I think it's interesting to note that so far most of the comments with a view opposing my original post are by people who already stay regularly on property, and thus have little affecting them with the proposed new FP+ system.

As a person who stays offsite, my point is that I believe we will be paying the same as before, but we will be receiving less. For example, The Great Movie Ride has never had Fast Pass until last week when it was put in for the new FP+ system.

Did The Great Movie Ride suddenly have a surge in popularity? Of course not. Theories are that there need to be "overflow" attractions for when all of the "A List" attractions fill up from advance FP+ reservations.

Obviously, now that there will be some FP riders at The Great Movie, it stands to reason that the standby line will at times be longer than when there was never FP available.

I believe this will happen throughout all of the parks - standby lines will be longer because of the new system - especially at attractions that never had FP before. And the people who will be in the standby lines most are the off-site guests.

(I think its important to also note that most people - especially the off-site guests - don't study for a Disney Vacation like they prepare for a final exam - And all of us on these boards forget that we are actually the minority - To this day, go in any park and you will find many people who had never heard of Fast Pass until they walked through the turnstile that day. Some will say that is their own fault for not "preparing" - but I will say- once they learn about it, they like it and they feel like that can partake in it. But very soon, those people will walk-in, learn about FP+ and realize they are not able to be part of it. And there will be a much different reaction than what they have to the current FP situation.)

Take a look at any theme park parking lot (where they pay $15 to park each day) - there are MANY people who will be falling into this group of the Have-nots. And history has shown that Have-nots never respond well to "You should count your blessings for what you do have. Just pay more and you can be part of our group too. It's just that simple".

Stu29573
07-30-2013, 06:19 PM
I think it's interesting to note that so far most of the comments with a view opposing my original post are by people who already stay regularly on property, and thus have little affecting them with the proposed new FP+ system.

As a person who stays offsite, my point is that I believe we will be paying the same as before, but we will be receiving less. For example, The Great Movie Ride has never had Fast Pass until last week when it was put in for the new FP+ system.

Did The Great Movie Ride suddenly have a surge in popularity? Of course not. Theories are that there need to be "overflow" attractions for when all of the "A List" attractions fill up from advance FP+ reservations.

Obviously, now that there will be some FP riders at The Great Movie, it stands to reason that the standby line will at times be longer than when there was never FP available.

I believe this will happen throughout all of the parks - standby lines will be longer because of the new system - especially at attractions that never had FP before. And the people who will be in the standby lines most are the off-site guests.

(I think its important to also note that most people - especially the off-site guests - don't study for a Disney Vacation like they prepare for a final exam - And all of us on these boards forget that we are actually the minority - To this day, go in any park and you will find many people who had never heard of Fast Pass until they walked through the turnstile that day. Some will say that is their own fault for not "preparing" - but I will say- once they learn about it, they like it and they feel like that can partake in it. But very soon, those people will walk-in, learn about FP+ and realize they are not able to be part of it. And there will be a much different reaction than what they have to the current FP situation.)

Take a look at any theme park parking lot (where they pay $15 to park each day) - there are MANY people who will be falling into this group of the Have-nots. And history has shown that Have-nots never respond well to "You should count your blessings for what you do have. Just pay more and you can be part of our group too. It's just that simple".

Very good point. By the way, I usually stay onsite, but I can see where you are coming from (why cant others?). Much of what Disney sells is intangible. Dreams and magic dont really mean much when you feel left out or ripped off. Disney is being lead by bean counter idiots rather than people with vision.

joonyer
07-30-2013, 06:27 PM
No question the value of a WDW has been dropping, and apparently will continue to do so in the near future. I get it and I don't like it. I'm on board with that line of thinking.

But that's a different argument than: Disney is creating a "Have's vs. Have-nots" envy among its guests, by how it might implement the new FP+ system. Let's be clear: EVERYONE you can afford to go to WDW (on-site or off) is a HAVE. The Have-nots are the vast majority of folks who could never afford such a vacation. If we are debating that, among those who visit can WDW, it is un-fair that some will get more benefits than others, well then that is just splitting hairs, imho.

Aurora
07-30-2013, 06:35 PM
Can someone please point me to where the current or future prices for FP+ are published? Or where it says that you have to stay on property to use it?

There are several things that I don't like about FP+, but paying money for it isn't one of them. Because if they were going to charge for it, I'm thinking there would be a price list leaked by now.

Maybe they will in the future, and maybe they won't. People have been claiming for years that Disney would start charging a fee for Magical Express. They haven't yet.

Stu29573
07-30-2013, 06:45 PM
No question the value of a WDW has been dropping, and apparently will continue to do so in the near future. I get it and I don't like it. I'm on board with that line of thinking.

But that's a different argument than: Disney is creating a "Have's vs. Have-nots" envy among its guests, by how it might implement the new FP+ system. Let's be clear: EVERYONE you can afford to go to WDW (on-site or off) is a HAVE. The Have-nots are the vast majority of folks who could never afford such a vacation. If we are debating that, among those who visit can WDW, it is un-fair that some will get more benefits than others, well then that is just splitting hairs, imho.

Actually, I have seen the same statement made by the OP on other boards and blogs. Obviously, it is seen by some as a real issue. I see it as more of the slow erosion of quality. And in all honesty, I can see someone who could barely afford to take their kids feeling slighted when the "rich people" get to cut in front of them, causing their kids to not get to do as much. It really doesnt seem right.

MNNHFLTX
07-30-2013, 08:33 PM
My issue with FP+ is that it adds another layer of complexity to planning a Disney World vacation, which is already pretty complicated, in and of itself. I'm not worried (at the moment, anyway) about it evolving into a "pay for perks" feature. If it did, though, I can understand that it might put some offsite guests off. However, I don't think that it spells disaster for the parks; people will adapt. As long as I've been on the boards (since 2000) every time there's been a change in Disney policy, people will proclaim doom and gloom and it hasn't happened yet.

Is it a good value? I'm not sure it ever was, to be honest. I used to live in Central Florida and go to Disney World quite a bit and I always remember it as being pricey (even if you could afford an expensive annual pass, you still had to pay for parking, food, expensive souvenirs). Has the quality of the experience gone down? I do feel this to be true, to a certain extent. But I never was one to wax poetic about Disney. It was always a fun place to go, and magical in the sense that I was experiencing it with my family, especially when my son was little. But if we couldn't afford it (and there were times when we couldn't), I didn't resent those that could. I never felt that Disney World was an inherent right, anymore than I feel that it is my right to cruise on the Queen Mary. If I can't afford it, I don't do it, simple as that.

As far as how Walt would feel about everything, maybe he would be disappointed, maybe he would be leading the charge. Who knows? That question gets old and is pure speculation.

faline
07-30-2013, 09:04 PM
Beth, I agree with you. Over the years, Disney has changed a lot. There was a time when no-one planned more than a few things for a Disney vacation - where to stay and, perhaps, one of the dinner shows. Everything else typically happened after you got there. Everyone stood in line for each ride - whether it was a short line or a long line. One could choose to wait in the line or skip the ride.

Along came advanced dining reservations and fast pass. Suddenly, everything needed to be planned. Still, many folks paid no attention to Disney dining. They went to the rides and attractions and grabbed a burger or hot dog along the way.

Then Disney introduced "free dining". Now, so many folks were booking table service meals, everyone had to plan their meals far in advance - getting up at 6 a.m. or earlier to get the best reservations; fretting when Cinderella's Table or Chef's Mickey proved elusive. Two unexepected consequences arose. Folks booked multiple reservations at the same time so they could pick and choose which they wanted at the last minute and a sort of black market of dining reservations at popular spots arose which, in turn, led Disney to require securing reservations at popular spots with credit cards.

Fast pass came along. Pretty cool for those who knew how to use it. New strategie were developed by those in the know (Is someone who is a frequent visitor a "have" while those who didn't know how to use the system and, therefore got on fewer rides a "have not"?) to grab fast passes early for the popular rides. Thought was even put into the order in which someone should try to obtain fast passes (Should I go for Test Track or Soarin' first?).

Fast pass plus is a new system. I'm not sure if I'm in favor of it or not. I'm sure it will have some unintended consequences - most everything does. But I'm also sure folks will learn to work with it.

Still, in the end, Disney World is an amusement park. And, like Beth said, not everyone will be able to afford to spend time in Disney World.

Guess I've rambled along long enough!!

SBETigg
07-30-2013, 09:17 PM
It's a Have/Have-Not World not of Disney's creation. But Disney used to be just one park and two very expensive resorts. That's when I started going. People who couldn't afford those resorts stayed elsewhere and made the drive. People who could afford those resorts had a whole lot more perks than those who couldn't. It was the way it was when WDW opened. It's a resort business. It pretty much operates on a have/have not system anyway. From day one to the bitter end.

Over the years, they decided it was in their best business interest to expand to more parks. Then to expand to adding hotels in different price ranges. Which, arguably, made it easier for families at different income levels to enjoy WDW in a way that they couldn't before. There are people who can't even afford a Disney vacation, true (without even going into FP). But as far as staying on or off site, with the Value resorts, for a vast majority who can afford to vacation, most can pretty much afford to stay on site (I realize there are exceptions). Which means that any perks that go to resort guests are not really about have/have not. It's about if you choose to enjoy your vacation on Disney property or choose to stay off-site (usually for the same price or more).

Not to say that there are not people who scrimp, stay offsite at the lowest possible price, and bring bag lunches into WDW. I would imagine that Disney would find a way for people who are not resort guests to enjoy FP+ anyway, just because there are so many FL residents they aim to please. They know their fan base. Let's see how it all unfolds before we get alarmist about have/have not. Even so, I don't see two hour lines forming for the majority of attractions with few exceptions.

mickclub1955
07-30-2013, 09:41 PM
For what it is worth, I don't like the idea of having to pre-plan for fast pass, or that you only get 3 per day. It's bad enough get advanced reservations for meals and for which park to go to on what day. Why give myself a stroke trying to figure out what attraction is worth the fast pass and which ones are not. For those saying Walt would be rolling in his grave. Walt wouldn't even know what fast pass is. It was only created within the last decade or so. It was very convenient and was a God send for the long lines, but as with all good things, this too has now passed and we most likely will have to go back to standing in long lines. I think after a while it will be evaluated and it will change again. Maybe for the better and maybe for the worse.

TheVBs
07-30-2013, 09:47 PM
Ok. I feel like I have to say this. There is a recurring theme here (this thread & across the board) that is just tiresome.

We go to WDW every two years with different vacations in the years between. We return to WDW every two years (and will be again next year), because we have AMAZING trips there! We are more than happy with the value we get for our money. We come home with the most special memories.

Here's the tiresome part.... I read posts here that are seemingly telling me that my family isn't actually having a good time or getting value for our money. We just think we are because we're blinded with pixie dust, we're apologists or we need to "wake up". Let me assure you that we don't give up a dime to anything that we don't think is worth it to us. WE are the only ones who can decide whether we're having a good time at WDW or not.

Now, when someone here says the value is gone for them, or they're not having good trips, and it's time for them to choose not to spend their money at WDW again. I respect that 100%. I may offer examples of our recent trip experiences, but I have never, and would never tell someone that they're mistaken and should keep spending to go to Disney. Because you are the only person who decides what is value for your money. Just like I am.

I get that Disney meant/means something more special than the average destination to people. I get that when that special thing gets tarnished in some way that it probably just about breaks your heart. I get that you don't want to spend your money there anymore. I more than get it, I RESPECT it. Maybe you're so upset that you've become a little zealous about trying to hurt WDW somehow by trying to talk others into not going there.

Here's what I'd like to ask - please respect the fact that my family is genuinely still having a good time there and spare me the accusation that I somehow just don't know any better. Wake up yourself! ;)

Stu29573
07-30-2013, 10:31 PM
Ok. I feel like I have to say this. There is a recurring theme here (this thread & across the board) that is just tiresome.

We go to WDW every two years with different vacations in the years between. We return to WDW every two years (and will be again next year), because we have AMAZING trips there! We are more than happy with the value we get for our money. We come home with the most special memories.

Here's the tiresome part.... I read posts here that are seemingly telling me that my family isn't actually having a good time or getting value for our money. We just think we are because we're blinded with pixie dust, we're apologists or we need to "wake up". Let me assure you that we don't give up a dime to anything that we don't think is worth it to us. WE are the only ones who can decide whether we're having a good time at WDW or not.

Now, when someone here says the value is gone for them, or they're not having good trips, and it's time for them to choose not to spend their money at WDW again. I respect that 100%. I may offer examples of our recent trip experiences, but I have never, and would never tell someone that they're mistaken and should keep spending to go to Disney. Because you are the only person who decides what is value for your money. Just like I am.

I get that Disney meant/means something more special than the average destination to people. I get that when that special thing gets tarnished in some way that it probably just about breaks your heart. I get that you don't want to spend your money there anymore. I more than get it, I RESPECT it. Maybe you're so upset that you've become a little zealous about trying to hurt WDW somehow by trying to talk others into not going there.

Here's what I'd like to ask - please respect the fact that my family is genuinely still having a good time there and spare me the accusation that I somehow just don't know any better. Wake up yourself! ;)
I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to offend you. I guess I get to where I feel I'm not being heard and I start jumping up and down and yelling like a little kid. I feel some people jut like to yell at anyone who doesn't toe the company line.

The reality is that I do see the value going down. I used to dream about going and my next trip, but I am realizing that due to my wife beiny out of work since 2010, and the fact that I work for the public schools, I probably am never going to get to go back. I don't see Disney caring about people like me. No, we have cancelled our grandkids' first trip. Not Disney's fault....or problem. I know what it feels like to go from being a "have" to a "have not."

Anyway, I probably shouln't even be on here any more. I'm sorry if I offeneded you. It won't happen again.

Arielfan98
07-30-2013, 11:39 PM
I have a little different viewpoint. Never mind the FP costs or incentives, guests have always had a pay a pretty hefty price of admission to Disney's theme parks. For every one of the many, many families that can barely afford park admission (and a cheap motel), there are 10 times that many families (or more) who can never even dream of a Disney vacation because of the basic costs of theme park admission alone.

Does that mean Disney has created a "caste" system of families who can afford to visit Disney parks and those who could never afford it? I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But the world has always had haves and have-nots. You could already say that the classification of Disney's resorts is already a "caste" system. You know, the poor stay at the values, the middle class at the moderates and the wealthy stay at the Deluxe hotels. Do guests who can only afford to stay in a the All-stars resort feel "inferior" to those who stay at the Grand Floridian or Polynesian resorts? Maybe so, but I'm just happy to be there at the dinky All-Star Sports motel.

I don't like Disney's "money grab" tactics any more than anyone else, but I'm still grateful that I am one of the "haves" who can afford to take my family there once in a while. I just don't buy the argument that the implementation of a "pay-for-play" FP system will make anyone feel "inferior" or that it will be a disaster. Life is not "fair" or "equal" anywhere else in the world and it has never been "equal" at WDW either. LIfe (and fun at a theme park) is too precious to let someone else with more money spoil it for me.

I agree with joonyer on this one. I have always stayed at All Star Music because it doesn't make sense to spend more than $120 a night or more for a hotel room when park admission is so much money. My dad always said that we only stay in the room for a bed to sleep on and a shower which is true so even if we did have the money for a deluxe resort there would be no point. However, the DP does make it seem more of a caste because deluxe resort guests can get the free TS plan when it is offered and those staying at value resorts can only get CS DP for free when it is offered. Now going back to the main topic as posted by the OP. Fortunately, my family is always capable of affording a week at Disney World once a week every year so this FP system wouldn't be a problem for us. However, I did once go to Universal and witnessed the discrimination between regular park guests like myself and those who had purchased Universal's FP system. It was pretty unfair in my opinion but as my favorite quote says, "Life isn't fair, it's just fairer than death that's all". Which is true. Nothing in life is really fair and I'm sure with Disney continuing to grow and grow as a business they will not stop at any strides to continue growing. It just seems like people being able to afford and spend more money than they used to Disney is taking advantage of that. And quite frankly I've been hearing a lot on Intercot that people have been staying off-site more now which surprises me. I worry the prices will begin to soar so high that eventually my family won't be able to afford a Disney vacation.

Quadstriker
07-31-2013, 04:40 AM
It was pretty unfair in my opinion but as my favorite quote says, "Life isn't fair, it's just fairer than death that's all".

~The Princess Bride by William Goldman. Tremendous book. And it always surprised me that they didn't work that quote into the movie somehow.

You just shot up to the top of the list on Quadstriker's Intercot Power Rankings.

TheVBs
07-31-2013, 09:46 AM
Ok, now I feel bad. :( Stu, that was really more of an exasperated post than an offended one. I didn't mean to make you feel bad, and I certainly didn't mean to make you feel like you shouldn't be here. Also, I wasn't referring to just your posts.

I just wanted to get across the point that there are (at least) two groups here on Intercot, having different WDW experiences, both expressing valid opinions. No one can tell another person whether they're getting good value for their own money, that's a very individual decision.

And apologies in general for straying so far off topic. :blush: In response to the OP, I don't think this is a new situation. People here have pointed out many past cases where you get more if you pay more at WDW. Now, if FP is taken away from people staying off-site, I think that would be a mistake. Because they'd be taking something away from some guests, instead of offering an additional perk to on-site guests. But it doesn't sound like that's what they're doing.

We always stay on-site at a value resort and we're happy with the perks that provides us. If free dining is offered, the QSDP works for us and is a good deal. Now, if we were to pop for a more expensive room, we would certainly appreciate being given more perks. That's really how I view it. Disney isn't taking away from people who spend less, they're offering little extra thank-yous for people who pay more. I think that's a great thing!

If we ever have to stay off property to make a WDW vacation happen, I certainly wouldn't expect the perks the on-site guests get. I wouldn't expect Disney to provide my transportation from the airport to a hotel that isn't theirs, or expect them to pick us up and take us to the park, or transport our purchases to a non-Disney hotel, etc.

And we absolutely view being able to take any kind of vacation as a pure luxury. When a phrase like "haves and have nots" comes up, I think in terms of being able to put food on the table, not a resort vacation! I just think that's a bit of a skewed perspective. And that doesn't mean that I'm not sympathetic about being priced out of a trip. There are lots of trips we'd LOVE to be able to take, but will likely never be able to afford it.

azcavalier
07-31-2013, 10:14 AM
My family has been going to WDW just about every year since 2000. We've taken other trips as well...two years ago we took a five day whirlwind trip to D.C./Gettysburg/Upstate NY/Niagara Falls/Cleveland-and-then-back-home. People keep talking about how Disney is "pricing them out". Yes, the tickets have gone up a little, but as far as I can tell, nothing else has....not really. Adding FP+ doesn't increase the price of a Disney trip. It *changes* the logistics of a Disney trip, but it doesn't make it less affordable.

I guess we look at it this way. My wife and I were discussing taking the kids to NYC for a few days. Just a few days is all. We can hop the Amtrak from Lynchburg all the way to Grand Central Station for $50 per person, each way. That's not bad. No gas, no parking. Makes it $500 total, not including food. Lodging in NYC isn't cheap...I mean, if you want to not worry about the cleanliness of the room or your safety. There are five of us...most NYC hotel rooms won't sleep five. That means that i've got to get two rooms. In the city, at a discount, you're looking at $230 at a minimum, per night. So, $500 a night.

What would we do there? Go see the sights...Empire State Building, Ground Zero memorial, Statue of Liberty, Central Park. Most of that is free, minus transportation costs. I would love to take my kids to one broadway play. Tickets for five of us to see Annie (mid-range seats)? Almost $900.

So, my total costs so far are $1500 for hotel, $900 for one play, and $500 to get there and back. Not including any food or souvenir shopping at all, it's almost $3000 for a three night/four day trip to New York City to see mostly stuff that's free. Throw in food for five in New York, and that's easily $3500-4000.

Guess what I can do for $4000? I can spend seven days at WDW. Unless we're going camping, or staying with relatives in some other city while we're visiting, WDW is still a really good value. Yes, the prices have changed some over time. And they will continue to change. But, i'm sorry, the value still can't be beat for a vacation destination.

mcjaco
07-31-2013, 10:37 AM
I've been going to WDW since I was 8 months old. We went every year until I was a Senior in high school, not once have we ever stayed on property. I've had over 30 visits in 38 years.

So to lump those whose stay on property as "more in the know" than those who who do not as "less knowlegable" is ludicrious. I know lots of people that have never stayed on property and go mutliple times a year. In fact, one couple runs one of these most popular theme park websites in the internet. It's about how YOU decide to prepare for a Disney trip.

Sometimes self proclaimed Disney geeks are the worst at feeling entitled when visiting the parks, which is where I think a lot of this griping is coming from.

After 38 years of visitng WDW and DL, I still feel the value is there, and continue to do so. We don't go every year anymore, but we look forward to every trip. It's a vacation, if you're planning every minute detail to get the most bang for your buck, you're missing the point. Sit back, relax, and enjoy.

Dulcee
07-31-2013, 10:47 AM
The have/have nots argument is just ridiculous. A WDW vacation is not a right, it is indeed a privilege that is available to those who can afford and choose to do it.

As with just about anything in this world if you can afford to pay more, you get more. The same applies to vacations. While I would love to take an all inclusive trip to the Poly each year for a week we just can't afford it. I don't however begrudge that to those who can.

And as others have expressed I'm so tired of being told I need to wake up and see that Disney is pulling the wool over my eyes. Is disney expesnive? Yes. Disney is a business, not a not for profit charity. Are other vacations just as pricey? You betcha. But time and time again when we take a Disney vacation we walk away feeling like we really got so much for what we spent. And we've felt that way for many years.

I'm also tired of the panic over fast pass +. Give it a chance, see how it works. People really can't expect disney to remain stagnant with their technology. When Universal introduced a different front of the line technology it only made sense for disney to yet again counter with something new.

lawgirl
07-31-2013, 10:53 AM
Ok. I feel like I have to say this. There is a recurring theme here (this thread & across the board) that is just tiresome.

We go to WDW every two years with different vacations in the years between. We return to WDW every two years (and will be again next year), because we have AMAZING trips there! We are more than happy with the value we get for our money. We come home with the most special memories.

Here's the tiresome part.... I read posts here that are seemingly telling me that my family isn't actually having a good time or getting value for our money. We just think we are because we're blinded with pixie dust, we're apologists or we need to "wake up". Let me assure you that we don't give up a dime to anything that we don't think is worth it to us. WE are the only ones who can decide whether we're having a good time at WDW or not.

Now, when someone here says the value is gone for them, or they're not having good trips, and it's time for them to choose not to spend their money at WDW again. I respect that 100%. I may offer examples of our recent trip experiences, but I have never, and would never tell someone that they're mistaken and should keep spending to go to Disney. Because you are the only person who decides what is value for your money. Just like I am.

I get that Disney meant/means something more special than the average destination to people. I get that when that special thing gets tarnished in some way that it probably just about breaks your heart. I get that you don't want to spend your money there anymore. I more than get it, I RESPECT it. Maybe you're so upset that you've become a little zealous about trying to hurt WDW somehow by trying to talk others into not going there.

Here's what I'd like to ask - please respect the fact that my family is genuinely still having a good time there and spare me the accusation that I somehow just don't know any better. Wake up yourself! ;)

Thank you so much for this! I've been "blasted" a few times by people saying I'm "drinking the Disney juice" or whatever clever things they say...I can't help it. We love going, always have. always will. Good words of wisdom you have offered!

lawgirl
07-31-2013, 11:12 AM
The have/have nots argument is just ridiculous. A WDW vacation is not a right, it is indeed a privilege that is available to those who can afford and choose to do it.

As with just about anything in this world if you can afford to pay more, you get more. The same applies to vacations. While I would love to take an all inclusive trip to the Poly each year for a week we just can't afford it. I don't however begrudge that to those who can.

And as others have expressed I'm so tired of being told I need to wake up and see that Disney is pulling the wool over my eyes. Is disney expesnive? Yes. Disney is a business, not a not for profit charity. Are other vacations just as pricey? You betcha. But time and time again when we take a Disney vacation we walk away feeling like we really got so much for what we spent. And we've felt that way for many years.

I'm also tired of the panic over fast pass +. Give it a chance, see how it works. People really can't expect disney to remain stagnant with their technology. When Universal introduced a different front of the line technology it only made sense for disney to yet again counter with something new.

Again, this is how I feel as well. It's not a right to vacation at WDW...it is a privilege. And its not like WDW is now banning anyone who doesn't stay on property from riding the rides, right? Sometimes (even though we always stay on property) if I haven't planned that well, we end up waiting in long lines to ride something we really want to. While I may wish that I had the foresight to get a FP for that particular time, I don't know that I will view people in the FP+ line as being superior to me. I don't know, maybe I'm just a patient person and don't mind waiting sometimes. As far as the "haves/have nots" argument, I personally don't see it that way, but am sorry its stirring up those feelings in people. In my mind, if you are on a computer complaining about making reservations and having to wait in line for a WDW vacation, then you are already part of the "haves". Guess its all in your perspective though. I don't plan on ever pointing out to my kids the "privileged" people in the FP+ line and holding them out to be superior to us. If someone makes you feel inferior or part of the "have nots" because they get to be in the FP+ line, then I think there is a bigger underlying issue.I don't understand that way of thinking, and I don't plan on instilling that in my children. We have food, clothing, shelter, and love...anything above that is a blessing and a privilege. But that's just me.

AdventurerKim
07-31-2013, 11:25 AM
I love going to WDW! I still love it! It is a place of happiness and family vacation memories that I will always love. Sure, some changes Disney has made over the last 20+ years, like the elimination of rides I loved as a kid, getting rid of Comedy Warehouse and Adventurers Club, rising prices on everything, the new refillable mug system, and even fast pass + which while only being tested doesn't sound good to me, we just don't or won't take advantage of these changes. There are some rides we don't ride. We don't go to AK except to eat at Yak and Yeti because we don't care for the park. I won't use the refillable mug system because it's not worth it; we don't get that much to drink at the hotel to make it worthwhile. Plus, I have a cabinet overflowing with Disney mugs so I don't need anymore. They should use a bar code system for regular/returning guests like they do (or did) at Blizzard Beach to use previous mugs. I'd use that. I may not use fast pass+ as I don't want to plan my WDW vacations down to the second. We go wherever the day and mood takes us.

Despite all of this, we will still go to WDW because we love it, and it's worth it to us. Some day that may change, but for now, our yearly visits will continue. :mickey:

BIGDOG
07-31-2013, 11:32 AM
This is a great post and I really like reading the ones who oppose and agree with Disney’s new changes. In my case being someone who was able to go to Disney for 10 or 14 days on a wimp years ago I guess made me a “HAVE”. Now with economic changes and losing my job of 19yrs with no advance notice and just getting by makes me a “HAVE NOT”. I must say even when I went in past years I never used a fast pass machine ever. We always looked at it as we are on vacation what’s the hurry and we did things off the cuff and never liked to plan anything; even hours ahead. Now at 52 yrs of age will I ever get back to Disney I don’t know I would like to think I can get back before I am too old or gone but who knows. I don’t let it keep me up at night too many other things do that already.
As for the value of a Disney trip decreasing: Yes it has to me. I would imagine it has also to a lot of the people who are posting on this site even if they will not admit it.
EXAMPLE: If you were to have a ‘YOUNGER’ family save money for a year to take their first trip to Disney World they would say it was wonderful and was well worth the value and sacrifice of the savings. In my opinion that would be because it was their first trip. Have that same family do that again and again for a few years and ask them after each trip they would say the value has decreased because; it is not NEW to them anymore.
Let’s face it we all are getting older things are not as grand as they use to be when we were younger.

joonyer
07-31-2013, 11:51 AM
Again, this is how I feel as well. It's not a right to vacation at WDW...it is a privilege. And its not like WDW is now banning anyone who doesn't stay on property from riding the rides, right? Sometimes (even though we always stay on property) if I haven't planned that well, we end up waiting in long lines to ride something we really want to. While I may wish that I had the foresight to get a FP for that particular time, I don't know that I will view people in the FP+ line as being superior to me. I don't know, maybe I'm just a patient person and don't mind waiting sometimes. As far as the "haves/have nots" argument, I personally don't see it that way, but am sorry its stirring up those feelings in people. In my mind, if you are on a computer complaining about making reservations and having to wait in line for a WDW vacation, then you are already part of the "haves". Guess its all in your perspective though. I don't plan on ever pointing out to my kids the "privileged" people in the FP+ line and holding them out to be superior to us. If someone makes you feel inferior or part of the "have nots" because they get to be in the FP+ line, then I think there is a bigger underlying issue.I don't understand that way of thinking, and I don't plan on instilling that in my children. We have food, clothing, shelter, and love...anything above that is a blessing and a privilege. But that's just me.

:ditto: :exactly:

mcjaco
07-31-2013, 12:34 PM
Let’s face it we all are getting older things are not as grand as they use to be when we were younger.

I am a firm believer that this the main culprit for our vision of WDW parks as we get older. We're wiser and see things much differently than we did when we were younger.

I'm anxiously awaiting my kids first visit next week to see how the magic impacts them.

Brooklynos
07-31-2013, 02:14 PM
Here's what I'd like to ask - please respect the fact that my family is genuinely still having a good time there



I agree with this post in the idea that the wool has not been pulled over my families eyes, we just still really enjoy our Disney vacation for our moneys worth. There is no place like WDW for us and until it gets to the point that we cannot afford it, or are not willing to give up some activities at home to go we will go and have a great time.

Some will feel this affects their value and rightfully so, I just hope it doesn't put out some of the Disney torch for them if they want to continue to vacation there.

Plus, I won't miss the mad dash to TSM just to find out that our return time is 5 or 6pm when we are eating dinner and cant ride it. We'll embrace this and make the best of our trip.

Plus this is the best place to get all this frustration/opinions out. Love us some Intercot! Hopefully, those that it bothers will get the part that really bothers them off their chest and have wonderful vacations fastpass+ or not. :) :mickey:

BIGDOG
07-31-2013, 02:38 PM
So the million dollar question is :
What can we ( Disney veterans) do to bring back the magic from our earlier year visits?

My family has tried

1. Going at different times of the year.
2. Book packages at different WDW resorts.
3. Bring friends whom are first timers along to share their magic.
4. Find things that have never been done before if possible.
5. Do shorter vacations vs. longer vacations.
6. Visit your least favorite parks first and your favorites last.
7. Go to attractions outside Disney.

What else can you think of?

Aurora
07-31-2013, 02:51 PM
So the million dollar question is :
What can we ( Disney veterans) do to bring back the magic from our earlier year visits?

My family has tried

1. Going at different times of the year.
2. Book packages at different WDW resorts.
3. Bring friends whom are first timers along to share their magic.
4. Find things that have never been done before if possible.
5. Do shorter vacations vs. longer vacations.
6. Visit your least favorite parks first and your favorites last.
7. Go to attractions outside Disney.

What else can you think of?

Go less often. Honestly, we used to go very often until 2004, then we spaced out our trips over every few years (by necessity, not desire). This really keeps it fresh for us.

PirateLover
07-31-2013, 03:03 PM
We have some pretty passionate posters on either side of this issue. I only have one thought to add.

I think the comparison to Universal is a faulty one. Uni's pay system is inherently different because it was never offered to everyone. WDW has now been employing the FastPass system, equally accessible to anyone with a park ticket, for well over a decade. Now, they are making a huge change to that system. For all these years the system was "fair" to everyone, whether you were on-site, off-site, a day tripper, or someone who planned things out days in advance--everyone had the same opportunity every day to get FastPasses. Now it is changing in a way that is not quite as "fair," and I can understand why it is leaving a bad taste in people's mouths. If this system had been in place from the get go it would be a different story.

mcjaco
07-31-2013, 03:41 PM
Go less often. Honestly, we used to go very often until 2004, then we spaced out our trips over every few years (by necessity, not desire). This really keeps it fresh for us.

This.

I went three times in one year. Way too much. I was so bored by the third time, it wasn't even fun. From that point on, I decided I need to go only once, and even better, at least only every other year.

Thank goodness that work, life, kids, etc. got in the way, and I'm finally making my way back down next week. I'm excited to see that changes!

merciantinkerbell
07-31-2013, 04:10 PM
Hope I don't step on any toes with my opinion - being a newbie here - but here goes. I agree with others that the world is unfair, there is always those who have more than others. As to Disney not being good value? I think that's subjective. For hubby and I, we took our first trip last year after a 30+ year wait! Couldn't afford it before. It was well worth it because despite hubby's limited mobility and other health issues Disney offered us a lot we could do together that other theme parks - both in UK an US - couldn't. I read on another site that Fastpass+ will be available at special kiosks on the day so those that can't/don't want to book in advance won't miss out. Just my 2 cents

Disnamic Duo
07-31-2013, 04:17 PM
The have/have nots argument is just ridiculous. A WDW vacation is not a right, it is indeed a privilege that is available to those who can afford and choose to do it.

As with just about anything in this world if you can afford to pay more, you get more. The same applies to vacations. While I would love to take an all inclusive trip to the Poly each year for a week we just can't afford it. I don't however begrudge that to those who can.

And as others have expressed I'm so tired of being told I need to wake up and see that Disney is pulling the wool over my eyes. Is disney expesnive? Yes. Disney is a business, not a not for profit charity. Are other vacations just as pricey? You betcha. But time and time again when we take a Disney vacation we walk away feeling like we really got so much for what we spent. And we've felt that way for many years.

I'm also tired of the panic over fast pass +. Give it a chance, see how it works. People really can't expect disney to remain stagnant with their technology. When Universal introduced a different front of the line technology it only made sense for disney to yet again counter with something new.

Agree with this 100%.

PLEASE, let's stop with the socialism already...

spoiledraf
07-31-2013, 05:35 PM
Disney is indeed a business and people will vote on their decisions with their wallets. If they continue to raise prices and cut services, they will feel a backlash. The parks are starting to feel their age. The cutbacks on customer service are starting to irritate long time visitors, myself included. Some costs have doubled in less than ten years while the economy has stumbled. There are plenty of people who can still afford the vacations Disney offers but even if you have cash to burn, a $39 buffet lunch of chicken nuggets and cold pizza Is a little much to meet Winnie the Poo. $100 plus an hour to go fishing? And the last time I went we didn't even get anything. Fast pass plus may be a good way to increase revenue but even folks who can afford what Disney offers are going to start to back away if they don't feel they are getting their money's worth. I hope to go the first week of December since I have never seen the Christmas decorations. I just read another post that they don't put up nearly as much as they did even three years ago. If they don't offer a room discount, that certainly won't happen. I just can't justify the cost for the return.

MNNHFLTX
07-31-2013, 07:23 PM
\
Let’s face it we all are getting older things are not as grand as they use to be when we were younger.Yes. This. :thumbsup:

That is what I was saying in my last post. Disney World is fun, but I don't expect it to "Wow" me anymore. It's a comfortable feeling, like going home. I can take my time more, enjoy the little things I used to rush by. If a cast member has an off day or it rains or whatever--it's not the end of the world.

But I'll still let y'all work out the bugs in the Fastpass+ system before I go back again. ;)

TikiLounger
07-31-2013, 07:54 PM
The have/have nots argument is just ridiculous. A WDW vacation is not a right, it is indeed a privilege that is available to those who can afford and choose to do it.

As with just about anything in this world if you can afford to pay more, you get more. The same applies to vacations. While I would love to take an all inclusive trip to the Poly each year for a week we just can't afford it. I don't however begrudge that to those who can.

And as others have expressed I'm so tired of being told I need to wake up and see that Disney is pulling the wool over my eyes. Is disney expesnive? Yes. Disney is a business, not a not for profit charity. Are other vacations just as pricey? You betcha. But time and time again when we take a Disney vacation we walk away feeling like we really got so much for what we spent. And we've felt that way for many years.

I'm also tired of the panic over fast pass +. Give it a chance, see how it works. People really can't expect disney to remain stagnant with their technology. When Universal introduced a different front of the line technology it only made sense for disney to yet again counter with something new.

My thoughts, exactly.

thejens
08-01-2013, 12:57 AM
Reading this it made me think that it is an experiment about the soul of American capitalism. Is WDW about the triumph of a brilliant and imaginative, hard working mid-westerner who proved that unwavering commitment to quality triumphs? Or is it about shareholders squeezing the magic and every penny out of a mega enterprise?

I adore WDW, the myth, the magic, the show, the history and the truly unique experience. Admittedly, I am one of the haves, who can afford a week or so onsite each year. But the smallish details, which begin to feel less magic and more big business led me to travel to other destinations in recent years. I'll be back this fall, but I wonder if I will find magic or big business. For me, this would be the question I have about any new change.

I will be wondering if the attention to detail and guest experience is still there. Are cast members full of pride and loyalty? Do the gift shops feel like exciting extensions of the magical experience or do they feel like money grabs you must wade through at the end of each ride featuring similar merchandise to the local mall? Do I spend a lot of time running or waiting? Or is every moment special? Do I feel like I am being nickle and dimed? Or do I feel like I get extra surprises and treats as I go along? Are there new surprises and am I still immersed? Or does the man behind the curtain show from time to time. Is it still a unique experience, or has Universal created something equal? I'll see in September and let you all know my thoughts.

thejens
08-01-2013, 12:59 AM
Must add, the introduction of McDonalds and then Starbucks, does not make me feel excited or encouraged.

mcjaco
08-01-2013, 10:02 AM
^ My only thought on that is that Walt himself went out and got sponsors for DL, and places like the Frito Cafe (or whatever it was called), the Dole stand, were apart of the experience even way back then. So adding McD, and Starbucks really isn't all that different of a business model. I think we're all just tired of seeing those brands.

CuteAsMinnie
08-01-2013, 10:27 AM
Unless I missed something (which is entirely possible) isn't FP+ based on your ticket and not your room reservation?

I thought if you buy your ticket, link it into MDE, you can participate in FP+ (once it is rolled out?




After speaking at length to CL CMs about the whole thing, it will definitely become a World of the planners and the plan-nots. If you can, and choose to, plan every minute of your vacation, kudos to you. If you do not, well....

Definitely a huge disadvantage for day guests.


We are very happy we enjoyed WDW this year as we have always known it to be. We have no idea when our next trip will be.

Mickey'sGirl
08-01-2013, 10:48 AM
It is also what people choose to spend their money on.

I am not a shopper, we do not always have all the latest and greatest stuff, I need a new couch .... We don't smoke, drink,I don't have my hair coloured and "done" except for regular cuts, my car is 11 almost 12 years old, we usually drive, I make most of the food we eat at home. We have an awesome family vacation each and every year. It is our priority.

A co-worker of mine hasn't had a family holiday in 6 years, but she and her daughter are beautifully dressed, they have 4 newer model cars in their driveway and all the latest gadgets. They prioritize their spending differently than I do.

I am not criticizing or saying my way is better, I am just saying that we all spend our ever-dwindling excess cash differently, and perhaps the have nots are really just have differentlies?

Anthony007
08-01-2013, 07:05 PM
So should magical express be available to those who stay off site? I think it's a good business move on their part to encourage people to stay on site.

BrerGnat
08-01-2013, 07:20 PM
Disney World has always been (and will always be) a world of "have's and have not's".

Disney World is an expensive endeavor, any way you slice it. It is not accessible to a VAST MAJORITY of Americans. Ever.

This system is not going to exclude those offsite. However, I assume it will be "better" for those staying onsite. I have a suspicion that the FP+ entitlements will be based on what resort you stay at. And, so what? You want more? You pay more. Can't or don't want to pay more? You miss out. Such is life. Everywhere.

I miss out on FP all the time because I sleep in and don't end up at "rope drop". It's my choice and I deal with the repercussions every trip when I show up and all the FP are gone for the day. When I'm really motivated to ride something, I CHOOSE to get my butt out of bed early and get to the park. That rarely happens. Rides are not that important to me, in the grand scheme of my vacation.

My personal opinion on this whole thing is that, after extensive "testing" phases, and the reality hits Disney that it just isn't going to work smoothly, it will quietly go away and be written off as one of Disney's most expensive mistakes. They have a way of over complicating things that winds up biting them in the rear eventually. It won't be the first time.

joonyer
08-01-2013, 08:53 PM
. . . .
My personal opinion on this whole thing is that, after extensive "testing" phases, and the reality hits Disney that it just isn't going to work smoothly, it will quietly go away and be written off as one of Disney's most expensive mistakes. They have a way of over complicating things that winds up biting them in the rear eventually. It won't be the first time.

And on the other hand, IF it does somehow work out and everyone decides that it works smoothly and makes getting on their favorite attractions easier, then in a few years the old way of doing things will be forgotten. Such is the mind of modern consumers, especially in the age of rapidly changing technology.
Nobody hardly remembers the old ticket books anymore, and I'm sure there were grumblings and complaints about them going away, but back then there was just no internet for those grumblings to "go viral" on . :D:D

Cheshire_Girl
08-02-2013, 09:37 AM
Wow, the amount of denial here is astounding. People, the value is dropping. If we dont hold Disney to their own standards they are doomed. This isnt about FP+ in particular. Its about the total experience. Wake up!!!!

Thank you...Indeed it is about value. Not just the monetary value of the price of a ticket vs. the "magic" you experience. It is also about the value Disney places on their guests...And if it moves to an on-site guest only "perk" then that says they do not value any of their guests that are not staying on property.

Yes FP+ is here to stay-I think we all get that...The biggest problem at this point is the absolute lack of official information regarding their intentions for how this system will work.
As long as it is still available to other guests in the same manner-and we are all hating it and touting how it ***** eqaully-then fine...But if it ends up as the OP is suggesting-on site guests only-then that is a completely different situation and yes, it stinks.
The Magic is for everyone-not just the few that can afford to stay on property and THAT is why Walt would turn over in his grave-Hopefully he won't be.

WiDisneyFan
08-02-2013, 11:29 AM
Long time lurker, first time poster here. I've wanted to respond to this string several times. As one of my old time teachers used to tell us all the time - "life isn't fair". There are haves and have nots in this world. I fall somewhere in between. We don't have fancy cars and fancy possessions, but we do spend our yearly vacation money on a trip to Disneyworld. We've stayed on sight and off sight an equal amount of times. One of the reasons we do stay on sight is the extra perks. This may sound harsh, but if things like this turn some people away from Disney, the experience for those who still go will be better because crowds will be smaller. This gives the haves of the world more incentive to go back. So in the end Disney still makes it's profits and the people that can afford to go get a better experience and may be inclined to return more. I think we can all agree crowd levels have increased, which has decreased the "magic" as the years have gone by. But my family will still love what Disney is, has been, and will be, for many years ahead. It's my little "island" of getting away from the riggors of daily life. People need to remember that Disney is a business. Things change, business changes, people change........... and as long as Disney remains in operation I plan to use it as my getaway. Fastpass+ is an interesting concept that we will use if given the opportunity in the future. Ok.........enough of the rant..........time to start packing for Orlando for next week!

seanyred
08-02-2013, 11:29 AM
And on the other hand, IF it does somehow work out and everyone decides that it works smoothly and makes getting on their favorite attractions easier, then in a few years the old way of doing things will be forgotten. Such is the mind of modern consumers, especially in the age of rapidly changing technology.
Nobody hardly remembers the old ticket books anymore, and I'm sure there were grumblings and complaints about them going away, but back then there was just no internet for those grumblings to "go viral" on . :D:D


I made a similar point on another thread awhile ago. People in general don't like change and the interwebs provide more places to grumble. I am one of the few who likes the concept of MyMagic+ but that doesn't mean it won't be messed up by Disney.

AgentC
08-02-2013, 12:02 PM
I don't really have anything to add to this thread but I wanted to jump in and say :welcome: to Intercot to WiDisneyFan. :mickey:

Glad you've come out of lurkdom.

Aurora
08-02-2013, 12:23 PM
This system is not going to exclude those offsite. However, I assume it will be "better" for those staying onsite. I have a suspicion that the FP+ entitlements will be based on what resort you stay at.


I've assumed the same thing, which brings me to a question that I know no one can answer right now -- I wonder how many FP+ spots we DVC members will receive? A whole 'nother can of worms... :mickey:

faline
08-02-2013, 12:46 PM
...Nobody hardly remembers the old ticket books anymore, and I'm sure there were grumblings and complaints about them going away, but back then there was just no internet for those grumblings to "go viral" on . :D:D

The first time I visited Disney World, they were in the process of trying a new approach. Disney still had ticket books and plenty of places to buy them in the parks. But, they had just introduced a new, multi-day pass that would your get you into the park and on any ride your wanted without fumbling around to find the right ticket for the ride. The new tickets were made out of cardboard and had blocks for each day available on the ticket. As you entered the park, the date was stamped into one of the blocks. You then showed your cardboard ticket at the entrance to each ride to gain access to that ride - and no left-over, unused tickets at the end of the day!!

joonyer
08-02-2013, 01:22 PM
The first time I visited Disney World, they were in the process of trying a new approach. Disney still had ticket books and plenty of places to buy them in the parks. But, they had just introduced a new, multi-day pass that would your get you into the park and on any ride your wanted without fumbling around to find the right ticket for the ride. The new tickets were made out of cardboard and had blocks for each day available on the ticket. As you entered the park, the date was stamped into one of the blocks. You then showed your cardboard ticket at the entrance to each ride to gain access to that ride - and no left-over, unused tickets at the end of the day!!

Wow! you're dating yourself now. Old times, I remember those ticket books well. And I always thought they were confusing and trouble to keep up with. Sound like FP+? What goes around comes around, I guess. ;)

The Hitchhiking Ghost
08-02-2013, 02:02 PM
The first time I visited Disney World, they were in the process of trying a new approach. Disney still had ticket books and plenty of places to buy them in the parks. But, they had just introduced a new, multi-day pass that would your get you into the park and on any ride your wanted without fumbling around to find the right ticket for the ride. The new tickets were made out of cardboard and had blocks for each day available on the ticket. As you entered the park, the date was stamped into one of the blocks. You then showed your cardboard ticket at the entrance to each ride to gain access to that ride - and no left-over, unused tickets at the end of the day!!

I think I'm recalling correctly. Back in 1991 my girlfriend (now DW) and I went down for a short stay. I seem to remember getting something that was like a ski-lift ticket, that had 5 open blocks (for a 5 day pass) and they would stamp that day used when you entered the park. I don't think they expired either. This might have been after the testing period as I don't recall having to show it at the entrance of each ride.

faline
08-02-2013, 02:12 PM
Wow! you're dating yourself now.

Yes, I am!!

faline
08-02-2013, 02:14 PM
I think I'm recalling correctly. Back in 1991 my girlfriend (now DW) and I went down for a short stay. I seem to remember getting something that was like a ski-lift ticket, that had 5 open blocks (for a 5 day pass) and they would stamp that day used when you entered the park. I don't think they expired either. This might have been after the testing period as I don't recall having to show it at the entrance of each ride.

That was long after the testing period!! And, yet, that description sounds like the old passes - by 1991, they would not have been dealing with individual tickets for rides any longer. They did not expire. Disney World, back then, always advertised that their tickets NEVER expired and would always be good forever.

Altair
08-02-2013, 02:15 PM
This may sound harsh, but if things like this turn some people away from Disney, the experience for those who still go will be better because crowds will be smaller. This gives the haves of the world more incentive to go back. So in the end Disney still makes it's profits and the people that can afford to go get a better experience and may be inclined to return more.

First of all, welcome to Intercot. :mickey:
If attendance drops due to this program, Disney will have to raise prices even more to cover the lost revenue, so more and more people will be left out.
No one has a problem as long as there is a benefit in it for them, but once they are left out that all changes.

Keneva
08-02-2013, 06:34 PM
I'm not familiar with off-site vs on-site hotel pricing in the valve range. What is the price differential between a Disney value room and what one could get at the lowest end off-site (assuming a June-Aug trip)?:confused:

Altair
08-02-2013, 08:06 PM
I'm not familiar with off-site vs on-site hotel pricing in the valve range. What is the price differential between a Disney value room and what one could get at the lowest end off-site (assuming a June-Aug trip)?:confused:

A value resort rack rate would be $129 for weeknights and $159 for weekends plus 7% tax I suppose.
Off site $55 per night plus 7% tax. Rack rate.
When we go in the off season in winter, we pay from $30 to $45 per night. Clean rooms, small breakfast in the morning.
If you don't need the "magic" 24/7 this is a cheap way to go.

baldburke
08-03-2013, 01:01 AM
Wow, the amount of denial here is astounding. People, the value is dropping. If we dont hold Disney to their own standards they are doomed. This isnt about FP+ in particular. Its about the total experience. Wake up!!!!

Good point! I know a trip to Disney isn't quite what it was when I was a kid. I was just thinking about this the other day as we are finalizing preparations for our own trip in two weeks and thinking about how my kids are getting excited.

Disney should think like Apple, quality over quantity! Four parks and who knows how many rooms are enough already. There are countless options for a variety of budgets. I'd rather see them fix or improve the existing attractions as opposed to adding another resort.

After 30 years of headed to central Florida it is still all about the experience no matter how many times we go. Disney is still good, but it could be so much better. The people that enjoy Disney will still come. Make the experience better and maybe they go more often?

stephicakes
08-03-2013, 07:50 AM
I've assumed the same thing, which brings me to a question that I know no one can answer right now -- I wonder how many FP+ spots we DVC members will receive? A whole 'nother can of worms... :mickey:

No kidding... not to mention AP holders. Anyone know anything about that yet?? :confused:

Opus X
08-04-2013, 05:53 PM
When Disneyland opened....You had to pay per ride....the money someone had...the more they rode. So, Walt would not be turning in his grave...concerning fast pass+
There is NOTHING in life that the phrase....the more you pay..the more you play doesn't apply.
FWIW, I consider WDW/DLR to be better than ever.
We go almost every year and will continue to.
Why,,,? Nothing..i mean nothing beats it.:mickey:

texas211
08-04-2013, 08:54 PM
Well, of course it is a system of haves and have nots.

There are tons of people who cannot, nor will they ever, be able to afford going to WDW.

The idea of going to WDW is have vs have nots. We spend hundreds to thousands, to tens of thousands, going to WDW. Many of us go frequently, or stay at nice resorts. So to say this is new, is absurd. If you've been, you are a Have. There are always those you have, more.. There are those who can spend a super premium. But, this is not new. Going to WDW. Being a WDW'er, you are a have.

So, the real complaint is adding a new system that may or may not be convenient, and having to shell out a few more bucks. As far as the FP+, no I"m not excited about a new system to have to adapt to. But such is life. I still want my Horizons, 20,000 leagues, and skyway.

Tekneek
08-05-2013, 07:22 AM
Disney can do whatever they want to. That much is true. While seeking higher profits is their right, their choices of how to go about it are not always in line with the customer service/guest experience reputation that they pinned so much upon. Organizations with great customer service treat all of their guests with excellence. They don't first look up your history before they decide what level of service you get. They don't check to make sure you have a special card before determining the excellence you receive. Everybody gets it simply by being there.

I am told over and over by certain people that Disney's great customer service is not in decline. It is impossible for it not to be, when executive management makes decisions that violate well known and established tenets of great customer service (some of which Disney used to teach over at places like The Disney Institute themselves!). Just because something is really important for your bottom line does not suddenly make it a great customer service idea. Wanting that extra money does not mean it is automatically in line with the customer service ideals that you once championed, or the core values and beliefs your company was supposed to hold dear.

Yes, they can do whatever they want, even walk away from their own reputation/past.

azcavalier
08-05-2013, 11:47 AM
I'm not familiar with off-site vs on-site hotel pricing in the valve range. What is the price differential between a Disney value room and what one could get at the lowest end off-site (assuming a June-Aug trip)?:confused:


A value resort rack rate would be $129 for weeknights and $159 for weekends plus 7% tax I suppose.
Off site $55 per night plus 7% tax. Rack rate.
When we go in the off season in winter, we pay from $30 to $45 per night. Clean rooms, small breakfast in the morning.
If you don't need the "magic" 24/7 this is a cheap way to go.

So, this is all going to depend on when you go. You can stay at an All Star resort for a lot less than $129/night during the off-season. In January, depending on when you book, I've seen it for as little as $90/night. Doing a quick check right now I found them for $101/night (weeknights) the second full week of January. Rack rate.

Now, that said, could I find it cheaper off-site? Yeah, but it's farther away, and you'll pay for parking. Off-site places may have a shuttle, but it's not as convenient.

Arielfan98
08-05-2013, 02:35 PM
So, this is all going to depend on when you go. You can stay at an All Star resort for a lot less than $129/night during the off-season. In January, depending on when you book, I've seen it for as little as $90/night. Doing a quick check right now I found them for $101/night (weeknights) the second full week of January. Rack rate.

Now, that said, could I find it cheaper off-site? Yeah, but it's farther away, and you'll pay for parking. Off-site places may have a shuttle, but it's not as convenient.

I've been staying at All Star Music my entire life and it is approx. $90 or a little more a night and maybe $124 on weekends. I also must agree that staying off-site does not offer any perks besides a cheaper price. I've actually heard horror stories about being waiting forever for shuttles to WDW and their hotel only offering 2 shuttles a day. Plus staying off property does not grant you EMH,
possible free dining, free transportation and parking as well as wonderful customer service from CMs. Let's face it Disney is expensive and I truly am sorry that not everyone can afford a Disney vacation but that's how the world works. Not everyone can afford an iPhone or a Bentley car but that doesn't stop us from living. Saving up for a value resort at Disney (not AoA) can be attainable if money is saved up through the years for some, but for some maybe not. Point is: it is what it is.

azcavalier
08-05-2013, 02:57 PM
I'm not familiar with off-site vs on-site hotel pricing in the valve range. What is the price differential between a Disney value room and what one could get at the lowest end off-site (assuming a June-Aug trip)?:confused:


A value resort rack rate would be $129 for weeknights and $159 for weekends plus 7% tax I suppose.
Off site $55 per night plus 7% tax. Rack rate.
When we go in the off season in winter, we pay from $30 to $45 per night. Clean rooms, small breakfast in the morning.
If you don't need the "magic" 24/7 this is a cheap way to go.

OK, I missed the line about "assuming a June-Aug trip" part. Yeah, it'll be more in the $130/night range. You can definitely get better deals off-site. But like Arielfan98 said, all of the perks of staying on-site, completely forgetting the themeing of a Disney resort, really do add a ton of value to it.

Opus X
08-05-2013, 08:01 PM
Wow, the amount of denial here is astounding. People, the value is dropping. If we dont hold Disney to their own standards they are doomed. This isnt about FP+ in particular. Its about the total experience. Wake up!!!!
Couldn't disagree more.
Been going to WDW/DLR as an adult since 1990
To us. it just keeps getting better and better.
More to do and always a great value.
Travel to NYC or Vegas...see where the same $$ gets you.
As for Disney standards....I consider them to be top notch as they always have been. There will always be folks that "look" for things to whine or complain about..But, my opinion..and after all...this whole subject is strictly our own(s) opinion....Disney is better than ever. :thumbsup:
We just got back from POR is May and had a great time...no issues and the parks were immaculate.....as always.

MarkC
08-05-2013, 08:52 PM
Ditto what Opus X said above. There is no better vacation than a Disney vacation, unless it's a Disney cruise, but that's another matter.

Like another poster said, Disney has always been for only the fairly well to do. Most people can never go, especially if you don't live within a days' drive of Orlando. It will never change. I consider myself blessed to be able to go.

If you think it's too expensive, don't go. We always vote with our dollars. It's capitalism in pure form.

Bay Lake
08-05-2013, 09:49 PM
We are lucky enough to go to WDW about every 2 years. We save and enjoy ourselves every time. Is it expensive, yes but you will spend about the same for a week in Disney as you would on the jersey shore. Motel rooms are about $125-150 per night, if you want deluxe you could get a house or condo for about $2000 per week. Now add in meals, ride tickets($55 per person per day at one resort) and other extras.

JerseyDad
08-05-2013, 11:46 PM
.....been going to WDW since 2004 (and every year since ....lucky enuff to go 2x's in 2004) I was 43 yrs old ....had 3 kids ...a house ...2 car payments ...yada yada yada.....

....I did not go to WDW ...EVER ... prior to 2004 ...because I was in the process of trying to obtain the above listed items (except the children ....the stork brought them :D )

....my son ...our first child ....was 18 at the time, and when we asked if he wanted to go, he said, "No ...you didn't take me when I was younger and could appreciate it"! And our answer to him was, "We didn't take you ...we DIDN'T TAKE US ...because we could not afford it". So ...we were basically the "have not's" at that point.

...is it expensive to go to WDW?...yes (we drive from NJ to make it possible each year).

...it's always been about the "have's vs have-not's" ....and we've been on both sides. Getting to go on a WDW vacation (or Disney Cruise ...which we did also) ...is not a "right".

There is much too much of that mentality floating around these days. Whining about what I don't have ...didn't get ....what I 'deserve'. I could go into a political rant about that mentality being perpetuated lately ...but won't. It's really about wanting something bad enough .....needing to do a WDW vacation bad enough ...that you MAKE it happen somehow. I worked for a BIG company ...got laid off 4 yrs ago ...and the next day went out on my own. I'm making 'ends meet' .....but the reason we were able to continue going to WDW every year is that my wife started her own business ....and works her *** off to: 1) Have it be successful and 2). Have it be successful enough ...to be able to skim off about $3000 a year to let us have a vacation.

....we could go somewhere more affordable. Heck, we live in NJ and there are MILES of beaches to go to, affordable accommodations, great restaurants. But we choose to go to WDW because "we know what we're gonna' get" (regarding service, etc..). Have there been issues / changes / problems at WDW that have been noticeable ...yes. Has the price risen ...noticeably (in the 10 yrs I've been going)...YES! But we still go because it's perhaps the best bang for our buck.

Hammer
08-06-2013, 12:22 AM
....my son ...our first child ....was 18 at the time, and when we asked if he wanted to go, he said, "No ...you didn't take me when I was younger and could appreciate it"! And our answer to him was, "We didn't take you ...we DIDN'T TAKE US ...because we could not afford it". So ...we were basically the "have not's" at that point.

...is it expensive to go to WDW?...yes (we drive from NJ to make it possible each year).

...it's always been about the "have's vs have-not's" ....and we've been on both sides. Getting to go on a WDW vacation (or Disney Cruise ...which we did also) ...is not a "right".
.....

...It's really about wanting something bad enough .....needing to do a WDW vacation bad enough ...that you MAKE it happen somehow. I worked for a BIG company ...got laid off 4 yrs ago ...and the next day went out on my own. I'm making 'ends meet' .....but the reason we were able to continue going to WDW every year is that my wife started her own business ....and works her *** off to: 1) Have it be successful and 2). Have it be successful enough ...to be able to skim off about $3000 a year to let us have a vacation.

....we could go somewhere more affordable. Heck, we live in NJ and there are MILES of beaches to go to, affordable accommodations, great restaurants. But we choose to go to WDW because "we know what we're gonna' get" (regarding service, etc..). Have there been issues / changes / problems at WDW that have been noticeable ...yes. Has the price risen ...noticeably (in the 10 yrs I've been going)...YES! But we still go because it's perhaps the best bang for our buck.

I have to ask, did your first son decide to go with you to Disney? I hope so :D !

tjstrike
08-06-2013, 06:03 AM
To start, to me there's no comparison between on and off site hotels. All the perks you get with on site hotels by far out weighs the extra that you pay. If we didn't think so we wouldn't have bought into DVC 6 yrs ago. And as far as WDW going downhill... maybe so, but it's still much better than anything else out there and we will continue to take our kids and future grand kids as often as possible !!:twocents:

JerseyDad
08-06-2013, 10:17 AM
I have to ask, did your first son decide to go with you to Disney? I hope so :D !

....no ....he chose to stay home ...and has not yet been to WDW. There is a chance he'll "show up" this next time ...because he's 27 ...single ...self-supporting (he just moved out last year) .....and as such can hop on a plane (or drive) and do that type of thing.

...we'll be at WDW (POP) in 18 days ...and my 2 younger brothers are going to be there ...with their family's ...I sure hope my son chooses to go too so we can have a full compliment of family members.

azcavalier
08-07-2013, 11:13 AM
Couldn't disagree more.
Been going to WDW/DLR as an adult since 1990
To us. it just keeps getting better and better.
More to do and always a great value.
Travel to NYC or Vegas...see where the same $$ gets you.
As for Disney standards....I consider them to be top notch as they always have been. There will always be folks that "look" for things to whine or complain about..But, my opinion..and after all...this whole subject is strictly our own(s) opinion....Disney is better than ever. :thumbsup:
We just got back from POR is May and had a great time...no issues and the parks were immaculate.....as always.

I think that the old adage is true: "Familiarity breeds contempt". Those who feel that WDW is declining are those that have been over, and over, and over. It's also possible that when they first started going, they went with such excitement and wide-eyed awe and enthusiasm that nothing could possibly live up to their memories of how amazing it all was.

Have the details gotten...well, less detailed? No. The New Fantasyland puts that to rest right there. Visually amazing. I can only imagine what Avatarland is going to look like (regardless of anyone's opinion to whether or not it belongs at Animal Kingdom).

Yes, prices have gone up some. So has the price of a gallon of gas, a gallon of milk, a bag of apples, soda pop, the cost of a McDonald's cheeseburger, and the greens fees at my local golf course. It's called "inflation", and it's been happening for much longer than WDW has been around. Why should WDW keep their prices the same when everything else goes up? It's called "capitalism", and if you don't like it, then you should also stop buying groceries or filling up your tank.

Every time we take someone new to WDW, they are blown away. They are completely in awe of:

1. The cleanliness - the parks are always spotless and the landscaping is meticulous.

2. The Cast Members - we have had CM's go above and beyond the call of duty *every trip* since the first one. From security guards pulling out pin books out of nowhere to help my wife complete a collection to the manager at POR offering to buy my daughter a new Marie stuffed animal when we thought it had been taken with the sheets to the laundry.

3. The Character Interactions - Ariel flipped out one time when my daughter had shoes that light up, going off about the "fireworks" in her shoes and how magical it was. Another time, a different Ariel just got all excited that my DS (who is a redhead) was there because she said he was her "brother". She also made him get up, raise his right hand, and solemnly swear never to harm a fish.

The only complaint that I have had about WDW over the trips I've taken are that the youth groups at All Star Sports are idiots, and they should fix rides with broken effects (I'm lookin' at YOU - Splash Mountain) faster. But that's easy for me to say, since I have no idea what is wrong or what it takes to fix it.

If those new people went back, time and time again, would they still be blown away? No. They would start to notice every ugly wrinkle, every grumpy CM, every flaw in the system. But they would still have fun.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Scar
08-07-2013, 11:51 AM
1. The cleanliness - the parks are always spotless and the landscaping is meticulous.

2. The Cast Members - we have had CM's go above and beyond the call of duty *every trip* since the first one.Although I agree with your post, these two items, while still better than most places, have declined somewhat over the years.

Terra
08-07-2013, 11:56 AM
This has been an interesting read and conversation. I see both sides honestly. Not that my two cents matters much but I'll add to the conversation.
First, I think life in general is always and will always be that way. There will be some things, that many will never be able to experience because of life situations. I don't necessarily like that, but it's a reality of life. Of my own life even.
We are a dual working family. Both my husband and I work full time plus. He works for a local non-profit that helps families in crisis. And I'm the Director of our elementary schools Pre-Kindergarten program. Both of incomes combined now gross us about $45K a year total.
I consider us lucky/blessed [whatever one thinks] to be able to be Florida residents and be so close to WDW.
My husband does not care for WDW at all! He did go back in 2011 on a 5 day WDW vacation with us. We stayed in the POP. It was GREAT!
He got a 4 day pass.
Now, for my two sons and I, I do the monthly payment plan for the passes. That was a HUGE help when Disney did that. Before that, I would not have been able to afford the money upfront. Especially when both boys stopped being free.
That said, because of our tight budget, I made a choice to cut other things so that Disney could be a reality for us.
We do not have cable. We do not own new cars. We own two 1990s cars, fully paid and keep up with the repairs on those. We have cheap pre-paid cell phones. We don't do daily trips to Coffee shops or eat out that often [OK, maybe a Happy Meal once a week ;) ]
We chose to live in "working class" neighborhood so we have a lower COL. We essentially have the basic bills. Rent, utilities, gas, car insurance, student loan payment. That's about it.
My point is that, sometimes [not always of course], making WDW a reality IS doable, like previous posts have said. You may have to decide to give up other unnecessary things. Do you really need cable? Do you really need a cellular contract phone plan? Do you really need a brand new car with all the bells and whistles? Do you need to eat out a lot? Etc, etc.

And while I do love staying on sight at Disney. Generally if we take a weekend trip, we do stay off property. Personally I do not consider $100-150 a night a "value". However, I DO love all the perks and theming. When we stayed I had a friend working there and we got the discount. Otherwise, staying on property really isn't in our budget. Again, just a matter of what would we sacrifice?
I also pack snacks and food when we go. Maybe eat one meal in the park.

Again not that my input means much, but it works for us.

azcavalier
08-07-2013, 12:33 PM
Although I agree with your post, these two items, while still better than most places, have declined somewhat over the years.

I would argue that it's subjective. How do you measure it? To me, the cleanliness is about seeing garbage on the ground, what the bathrooms look like, that sort of thing. I have never, not once, in the last 13 years ever been anywhere in WDW where I saw something that I thought was unsightly or disgusting or below "Disney" standards.

Regarding the CMs, I have seen numerous discussions on here about bad experiences with Cms and how they're paid nothing, so how could they keep good ones, etc, etc. I have never worked for Disney. I have never been through their hiring process, nor their new employee orientation. I don't know what they're looking for in an employee, so I can't argue for or against these things. All I know is that in the last 13 years (which is when we starting going to WDW), I have had *one* negative interaction with a CM, and I was actually the one in the wrong. He was just doing his job. I just think he could have handled it a lot better.

Hammer
08-07-2013, 01:04 PM
We do not have cable. We do not own new cars. We own two 1990s cars, fully paid and keep up with the repairs on those. We have cheap pre-paid cell phones. We don't do daily trips to Coffee shops or eat out that often [OK, maybe a Happy Meal once a week ;) ]
We chose to live in "working class" neighborhood so we have a lower COL. We essentially have the basic bills. Rent, utilities, gas, car insurance, student loan payment. That's about it.
My point is that, sometimes [not always of course], making WDW a reality IS doable, like previous posts have said. You may have to decide to give up other unnecessary things.

I think this is what many posters are saying. For some, vacation is where they care to spend any disposable income they may have; other prefer to spend it elsewhere.


Do you really need cable?

Hey, stop telling people that or I may be out of a job, then I can't go to WDW (I work in software development for Comcast) ;) !

Terra
08-07-2013, 01:44 PM
I think this is what many posters are saying. For some, vacation is where they care to spend any disposable income they may have; other prefer to spend it elsewhere.



Hey, stop telling people that or I may be out of a job, then I can't go to WDW (I work in software development for Comcast) ;) !

:secret: :blush: I admit, we do have Roku and spend $8 a month on Hulu and stream it. Now, I WILL say, I do miss HGTV, TLC, and Discovery!

That is true, it's about choosing where we spend money. I do love that Disney requires a deposit but you have awhile to pay the balance on cruises and hotels. If you plan a year or more out, you possibly could save some money, and thereby have a vacation.

As modest as our income is, I'm even looking at a 2/3 day Disney cruise in the off season for my boys and I. It would be a year out probably and I would put so much back a month for it! :)

JerseyDad
08-07-2013, 11:01 PM
Hey, stop telling people that or I may be out of a job, then I can't go to WDW (I work in software development for Comcast) ;) !


....so YOUR the reason my Comcast cable / internet bill is about $250/month!!! ;)

Opus X
08-08-2013, 01:13 AM
Ditto what Opus X said above. There is no better vacation than a Disney vacation, unless it's a Disney cruise, but that's another matter.

Like another poster said, Disney has always been for only the fairly well to do. Most people can never go, especially if you don't live within a days' drive of Orlando. It will never change. I consider myself blessed to be able to go.

If you think it's too expensive, don't go. We always vote with our dollars. It's capitalism in pure form.
I wanted to add to this if i may..: I work a ton of overtime to be able to goto WDW/DLR every other year. Always have always will. Disney as the above poster stated always has been for folks that are well to do...if you will. I like it that way. I dont want it to be ordinary or just a place all can afford. It never has been. I take pride and yes BLESSED in being able to work and save and go. The cost is a non issue for us. My wife and I work to play. Work to play! And i agree...If folks think its too expensive..then dont go. Thats the persons problem NOT Disney. Id love to goto England maybe catch a Soccer game...its currently out of my price point. Thats my problem not England's.
In any case. If WDW prices its self out of someones financial capability....thats life.
Sorry for the rant. I will always stand my comment that WDW/DLR is the best vacation value there is.
Cheap? NO...and I dont want it to be.:mickey:

gueli
08-08-2013, 02:19 AM
This has been an interesting read and conversation. I see both sides honestly. Not that my two cents matters much but I'll add to the conversation...
That said, because of our tight budget, I made a choice to cut other things so that Disney could be a reality for us.

Again not that my input means much, but it works for us.

I have to say, your opinion matters.
The fact that you are careful, live within your means and want to go to Disney... well good for you !!! (this comment is not sarcastic, it is meant with all the joy of someone who likes Disney)

I cannot afford to go to WDW often, but when I do go, I like to spend my time onsite. for us if this means a vacation to WDW every few years, so be it. :)


what many posters are saying. For some, vacation is where they care to spend any disposable income they may have; other prefer to spend it elsewhere.
...
Hey, stop telling people that or I may be out of a job, then I can't go to WDW (I work in software development for Comcast) ;) !

:)

I am a Cable Guy... I hear ya ( I work for Cablevision NY) :beer:

Terra
08-08-2013, 09:27 PM
Thank you! :) I've lived in other states through out my life, and have been to many theme parks. And nothing compares to Disney in my book!! :mickey:

Gauis2001
08-09-2013, 10:16 AM
Interesting thread! Disney is a mega world-wide corporation with shareholders. The Board is responsible to deliver dividends to those shareholders. Business normally tries to cut costs and drive profits. The conflict arises when you combine people's passions and emotions with the almight dollar. Disney tries hard to deliver the best it can at a minimal cost. When "it all began with a mouse" started Mr. Disney's idea was to create a family themed location for all to enjoy. Unfortunately, economics play an impactful role here and as costs continue to rise for the Disney Corporation, they will be passed down to us, the consumer visitors. But think of it this way....for basically $100 you get a full day of entertainment. Go to a professional sporting event, concert or even an evening out with your significant other and you drop $100 easy. Yes, the cost of admissions is high and continues to rise, but it goes with what the market will bear. What are your memories and experiences worth? The beautiful thing is you can choose whether or not to go. I hope everyone that hasn't get's to and all those that want to can!

DNS
08-12-2013, 02:07 PM
Personally, I think as the prices continue to go up so much at Disney hotels, they could very well be looking for more perks to give to people for staying there. Especially since EMH dropped to 2 hours in the evenings. I know we have kicked around the idea of staying off property for much cheaper pricing, but the EMH keep us on property. I believe fast pass would too. Also, most of us on this forum are regulars at Disney. New comers, or once every several years people will not think much about having to stay on property for fast past. It is usually just when we fell something is taken away from us.