Are these the "Dark Days" of DisneyWorld?

[azcavalier]

Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a lot of negativity about the way things at WDW have been headed. It's even got me to be a bit snippy on here! SO, first off, I apologize to anyone whom i've been grumpy with, especially the moderators and QuadStriker.

But I wonder if it's really gotten worse, or if we tend to remember more fondly than it really was? My Grandma has been dead for 40 years, and all the time I was growing up my Mom complained that every year (according to my Dad) that Grandma's cooking was better and better. You could never top her biscuits, no matter what you did, even with the same recipe.

That said, here are some of the main topics that have gotten me thinking about it:

1. Restaurant quality has gone down - DDP to blame? Budget cuts?

2. Expansion changes (or not)- no Beastly Kingdom, Various refurbs whittled away to almost nothing (Space Mountain), new construction not up to par (Dumbo ride getting damaged, Yeti issues), buildings sitting empty, such as Wonders of Life Pavilion, the Imagination building being reduced to the Figment ride and the awful Michael Jackson movie.

3. Not fixing "the show" - various elements on multiple rides not functioning, and not getting fixed, such as COP, Splash Mountain, EE, the Great Movie Ride, Fantasmic, etc, etc.

4. Poor management decisions - from the Avatarland project announcement, to the Avatarland project suspension, to taking Splash Mountain off of nighttime EMH and adding the Country Bears and Tiki Room.

5. If it's broke, don't fix it. If it works, then let's change it! - New Fast Pass system, interactive queues instead of fixing the rides themselves.

6. Nickle & diming, price increases - charging for after hour parties, the dessert party, the possibility of a $200 add-on for an "interactive Magic Kingdom Game Experience" that is currently on the exit surveys, increase in DDP prices with less offerings, increase in overall park tickets.

7. The basic idea that management at TDO doesn't really care what the consumer wants, that they just want to justify their own decisions, whether they're wanted or not (i.e. the new costumes that CMs at the American Experience have to wear).

I'm not trying to be negative. I believe that all of us *love* WDW or we wouldn't be on here posting. And things have to change. AND no matter what decision that management makes, they can't please everyone.

So, is it really that bad now? Or are we just remembering the good ol' days, and maybe they weren't as good as we think they were?

Lastly, will changes be coming, and we'll all be happy 5-10 years from now with everything that Disney has done to our Vacation Kingdom?

[ChipNDale79]

Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a lot of negativity about the way things at WDW have been headed. It's even got me to be a bit snippy on here! SO, first off, I apologize to anyone whom i've been grumpy with, especially the moderators and QuadStriker.

But I wonder if it's really gotten worse, or if we tend to remember more fondly than it really was? My Grandma has been dead for 40 years, and all the time I was growing up my Mom complained that every year (according to my Dad) that Grandma's cooking was better and better. You could never top her biscuits, no matter what you did, even with the same recipe.

That said, here are some of the main topics that have gotten me thinking about it:

1. Restaurant quality has gone down - DDP to blame? Budget cuts?

2. Expansion changes (or not)- no Beastly Kingdom, Various refurbs whittled away to almost nothing (Space Mountain), new construction not up to par (Dumbo ride getting damaged, Yeti issues), buildings sitting empty, such as Wonders of Life Pavilion, the Imagination building being reduced to the Figment ride and the awful Michael Jackson movie.

3. Not fixing "the show" - various elements on multiple rides not functioning, and not getting fixed, such as COP, Splash Mountain, EE, the Great Movie Ride, Fantasmic, etc, etc.

4. Poor management decisions - from the Avatarland project announcement, to the Avatarland project suspension, to taking Splash Mountain off of nighttime EMH and adding the Country Bears and Tiki Room.

5. If it's broke, don't fix it. If it works, then let's change it! - New Fast Pass system, interactive queues instead of fixing the rides themselves.

6. Nickle & diming, price increases - charging for after hour parties, the dessert party, the possibility of a $200 add-on for an "interactive Magic Kingdom Game Experience" that is currently on the exit surveys, increase in DDP prices with less offerings, increase in overall park tickets.

7. The basic idea that management at TDO doesn't really care what the consumer wants, that they just want to justify their own decisions, whether they're wanted or not (i.e. the new costumes that CMs at the American Experience have to wear).

I'm not trying to be negative. I believe that all of us *love* WDW or we wouldn't be on here posting. And things have to change. AND no matter what decision that management makes, they can't please everyone.

So, is it really that bad now? Or are we just remembering the good ol' days, and maybe they weren't as good as we think they were?

Lastly, will changes be coming, and we'll all be happy 5-10 years from now with everything that Disney has done to our Vacation Kingdom?

Personally I feel like Disney has always been the standard for other theme parks, but lately with cost cutting and neglect, they are going to be just like any other theme park. I hope that things change for the better, and I think there's a great shot of that happening. I think if a redo of DHS or a new area is added like Carsland, then i think this argument becomes null and void. Until then, I'm tired of paying more every year while cuts are being made left and right.

You mention Space Mountain, I'm still amazed at how WDW really screwed this up. SM is a great ride, but it was time for some major refurb work to make it more exciting for the current generation of fans, but no, Disney decided to keep the 1970s style roller coaster layout. This was such a huge swing and a miss on Disney's part.

I'm also extremely upset with cutting of Splash Mountain from Magic Hours, staying on property is a lot more expensive than staying off, Magic Hours is a major perk and is our main reason for staying onsite. If more and more cuts are made to attractions during MHs, then I wonder how many people will book offsite hotels?

It's so saddening to see such a great company be completely ran by bean counters that lack imagination. I hope a regime change is made in the next few years that brings innovation and imagination (how come figment is signing in my head when i type this?) back to the Disney Company.

[lawgirl]

I'll have to say I really miss the pre-DDP and free dining days. Its turned all the really nice restaurants into a zoo basically...I hate to be negative, but we usually do OOP for 1-2 nice meals per trip, just because its better for us. However, the type of people (sorry this is very generalizing and sterotyping, and of course I don't mean everybody) that I've lately encountered at the TS and signature dining places are not really people that you would normally expect to be dining with. In my experience, the restaurants are always packed and super busy, with not enough staff to handle it; the staff seems to care less and less about the dining experience. The overall atmosphere in these places has, to me at least, become more like a food court. Noisy and stressful! And I hate that everything has to be booked so far in advance now...

[lawgirl]

Oh, and I love the character dining. I think its fun and such an experience. But I hate that the castle is ALWAYS booked, months and months in advance.

I remember the days when my dad and I would walk up to the podium at the castle, and they would seat us, no reservation at all! And the food was so much better.

[Ms. Mode]

I think some of the "ill will" comes from the computer age. I read several WDW blog sites and complaining is running rampant, it drives me crazy! Yes, the price has gone up...EVERYTHING has gone up...look at the price of gasoline. If Disney changes a ride people complain, if they take one away for something newer people complain, if they change nothing people complain; they just can't win.

I love Disney World, my family has had wonderful vacations there and plan to have more in the future. If the price goes up, we just won't be able to go as often...but we still plan to go. We don't need free dining, we don't ask for a break on the price of a room before we go....we just pay the fee and go. Because we are Disney People....we love it there! :mickey:

[Mendelson]

One thing to consider: the natural phenomenon of familiarity breeding contempt. And we on these boards are all very, very familiar.

[ChipNDale79]

we just pay the fee and go. Because we are Disney People....we love it there!

No offense to you, but this is exactly why Disney is able to get away with a lot of the things they are doing, people just pay the fee and go.

Until Disney sees a real decline in hotel bookings and ticket purchases, then no change will be made.

I too understand that the cost of everything has increased, but keep in mind that WDW is a vacation destination, I don't know about you, but in my family if the budget gets really tight, then the first thing that is cut is discretionary spending. A vacation would definitely fall into that category for most people. In a "bad economy", WDW's prices have not decreased, but increased nearly 20% since 2008.

At some point a WDW vacation does lose its "value". When that line is crossed, there will be more and more people booking vacations at other places, in my opinion Disney is very close to that line.

[retiredfigment]

Well said, Ms. Mode. DW is a magical place, but it still is part of today's economy. EVERYTHING is going up in price, everyone seems less friendly, everyone has to make cost cuts. Still love Disney! Went on the Backstage Tour and the guide said something to the effect that Disney IS a business. Didn't like hearing that, yet how true. IF the crowds weren't at DW, if tDW didn't offer packages to get more people to come, if DW did not make cost cuts, there may not be a DW to go to.

[Aurora]

There are four things that really bother me:

1. Charging for things that used to come with the price of admission, or adding a minimum of "amenities" in order to charge; e.g. dessert parties and VIP areas for fireworks viewing. This seems to be a trend with no sign of stopping.

2. The reduction in overall quality of CMs. I don't go looking for rude and indifferent CMs, but I encounter more and more on every trip. (Yes, I know this is partly a matter of the lack of qualified applicants, but only partly.)

3. The seeming neglect of good show. Guests DO notice when something doesn't work properly, and it's disappointing.

4. The monorail shut-downs within an hour of park closing.

Here are things that give me a bit of hope:

1. The imaginative "Magic, Memories and You" was a big surprise to me in terms of how good it was. It was one of those "how do they do that?" shows.

2. The Fantasyland expansion. Although I haven't been since some of the land has opened, I saw construction on our last trip that made me excited about it.

3. Additions to classic rides like Pirates of the Caribbean and the Haunted Mansion that help to keep them fresh.

Overall, I think the speed of Internet information makes it easy for people to complain before things are fixed; it also puts companies' feet to the flame to make sure they're fixed fast. I also think that increased crowds overall make it harder to appreciate the magic.

[doodleboy]

One thing to consider: the natural phenomenon of familiarity breeding contempt. And we on these boards are all very, very familiar.

I do agree with your point to some extent, but I have also been feeling like things are changing for the worse in the last 5 years or so. I like change and don't expect old attractions to be around forever, although I do believe some are more classic than others and can stand the test of time. But my sentiment mostly aligns itself with the original poster. I feel like things are being taken away and not replaced, or replaced on the cheap. What made WDW attractions so great was the attention to detail, craftsmanship, and imagination to mention a few of the things that draw us all there. I feel like the parks and resorts are becoming the Wal-mart of theme parks. I'd like to say that people will show their dislike for what's happening by not visiting, but our kids have a way of persuading where our $$ go. I know as mine get older I will not visit as often, and I am a DVC member. I also used to love to visit before kids for, but I think that urge has left me as of late due to the direction I see the corporation heading. :twocents:

[Ms. Mode]

Well, don't you think if WDW stops the free dining and room discounts they can stop raising the prices?

I say this because as I read what people write here on Intercot if they don't get the free DDP they are going to cancel their trip! I'm just saying that if they offer me a discount SURE I'm going to take it, but my whole vacation doesn't rest on free anything.

Just for the record, we are Disney Poor, and yes, we have limited our spending in other areas for a trip to WDW. :blush:

[ChipNDale79]

I do agree with your point to some extent, but I have also been feeling like things are changing for the worse in the last 5 years or so. I like change and don't expect old attractions to be around forever, although I do believe some are more classic than others and can stand the test of time. But my sentiment mostly aligns itself with the original poster. I feel like things are being taken away and not replaced, or replaced on the cheap. What made WDW attractions so great was the attention to detail, craftsmanship, and imagination to mention a few of the things that draw us all there. I feel like the parks and resorts are becoming the Wal-mart of theme parks. I'd like to say that people will show their dislike for what's happening by not visiting, but our kids have a way of persuading where our $$ go. I know as mine get older I will not visit as often, and I am a DVC member. I also used to love to visit before kids for, but I think that urge has left me as of late due to the direction I see the corporation heading. :twocents:

Post like this one are win i beg for a "like" button on Intercot ha.

[ChipNDale79]

Well, don't you think if WDW stops the free dining and room discounts they can stop raising the prices?

I say this because as I read what people write here on Intercot if they don't get the free DDP they are going to cancel their trip! I'm just saying that if they offer me a discount SURE I'm going to take it, but my whole vacation doesn't rest on free anything.

Just for the record, we are Disney Poor, and yes, we have limited our spending in other areas for a trip to WDW. :blush:

Yes free dinning is still there, but the other promotions aren't what they were a couple of years ago, when the bottom fell out of the economy.

Iger is on record as saying they are going to rollback on discounts and they are prepared to take a hit for it.

[darthmacho]

I still love WDW, heck I just spent 14 days there and 10 days in 2010, exclusively, and don't regret it a bit. While I won't go so far as to call these days "dark" you have a lot of legitimate gripes and questions on the current situation in WDW.

One thing I noticed is a drop in customer service in restaurant, most particularly the quick serves. The service at Everything Pop was downright awful at times.

You may feel negative, but hey, that's what discussion boards are for, to discuss issues, good or bad.

I hope things improve for all of us at WDW! :mickey:

[CMCTxMom]

No offense to you, but this is exactly why Disney is able to get away with a lot of the things they are doing, people just pay the fee and go.

Until Disney sees a real decline in hotel bookings and ticket purchases, then no change will be made.

I think that you're right, and I think that is what is most disappointing. Disney IS the standard in theme parks. "We" as the fans expect them to keep up their repuation and the Magic that we have come to love them for. I haven't been to WDW in almost 6 years - we're going in January - I hope I'm not let down. I noticed a lot of little things the last visits to Disneyland in '09 and '10, but I attributed that to the setup of that park being so much different (i.e. cast members walking in the parking lot for their busses, etc. Things you'd never seen in FL.).

[DizneyFreak2002]

Yes... somebody gets it!!!!


Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a lot of negativity about the way things at WDW have been headed. It's even got me to be a bit snippy on here! SO, first off, I apologize to anyone whom i've been grumpy with, especially the moderators and QuadStriker.

The "negativity" stems from TDO running WDW into the ground... They give no reason to be positive.. Even when things look positive, they always manage to do something that rips the rug out from under you...

And honestly, how can wanting to hold Disney to its own standards be negative??? Are we supposed to just eat {what} they shovel to us because it is Disney??? Accepting "just good enough" is why WDW is in the state it is in... People want to scream that Disney is the best then they reward them for a declining product...


But I wonder if it's really gotten worse, or if we tend to remember more fondly than it really was? My Grandma has been dead for 40 years, and all the time I was growing up my Mom complained that every year (according to my Dad) that Grandma's cooking was better and better. You could never top her biscuits, no matter what you did, even with the same recipe.Part of it may be remembering the good old days when everything worked and management cared... But that doesn't change the fact that Disney still claims to be the best in the industry meanwhile everyone has caught up and in most cases passed them... They are no longer considered by many in the industry as the theme park leader or innovator... The only ones who still believe that?? yes, fans...


1. Restaurant quality has gone down - DDP to blame? Budget cuts? Budget cuts are part of it... DDP is part of it... Lee Cockerell is the most to blame... His brainy idea to reduce the food offerings in WDW has led to a decline... it was all about offering the cheapest products for the most cost... His idea... And yes, he made tons in bonus checks because of it... While things have gotten better, there are still better places to eat off property and for half the cost...


2. Expansion changes (or not)- no Beastly Kingdom, Various refurbs whittled away to almost nothing (Space Mountain), new construction not up to par (Dumbo ride getting damaged, Yeti issues), buildings sitting empty, such as Wonders of Life Pavilion, the Imagination building being reduced to the Figment ride and the awful Michael Jackson movie.Beastly Kingdom was killed by Michael Eisner when DAK ran over budget, WAY over budget... So even back then they are very poor with money... However, that does not excuse them from their poor handling of things today... WDI can still do amazing things (see Carsland) when giving free reign to be creative.. But they aren't allowed that in WDW... TDO stunts their creativity... TDO has no creative active brain cells... it is all about the bottom line and that is it...

Park Ops can be blamed as well.. Once a project is finished, WDI hands it to Ops... They receive the new toy in perfect working condition...Them they neglect it and leave it to rot... They try to find the cheapest way around running the ride.... Show ready be damned... That never would have happened in the past...


3. Not fixing "the show" - various elements on multiple rides not functioning, and not getting fixed, such as COP, Splash Mountain, EE, the Great Movie Ride, Fantasmic, etc, etc. Again, Park Ops gets the blame along with TDO management... Once again, show ready be damned...


4. Poor management decisions - from the Avatarland project announcement, to the Avatarland project suspension, to taking Splash Mountain off of nighttime EMH and adding the Country Bears and Tiki Room.Avatar was Iger's baby, and possibly mistake... And even more possible: a huge black eye on his tenure... I was/am a supporter of the Avatar project in DAK (though it appears more and more likely it isn't going to happen SHOCKING!!!!), but this was a complete knee jerk reaction... He leaves in 2015 (and more than likelty long before that)... The new CEO (hopefully from outside the company) will have to determine what to do with the Avatar property...


5. If it's broke, don't fix it. If it works, then let's change it! - New Fast Pass system, interactive queues instead of fixing the rides themselves.if it's broke, don't fix it, what do they know? they are only tourists... and if it works, let's charge MORE money for it... what do they know? They are only tourists...


6. Nickle & diming, price increases - charging for after hour parties, the dessert party, the possibility of a $200 add-on for an "interactive Magic Kingdom Game Experience" that is currently on the exit surveys, increase in DDP prices with less offerings, increase in overall park tickets.You are paying more for less... They take things offline then jack up prices.. Been doing that for the better part of 10 years now... Standard Operating Procedure for TDO...


7. The basic idea that management at TDO doesn't really care what the consumer wants, that they just want to justify their own decisions, whether they're wanted or not (i.e. the new costumes that CMs at the American Experience have to wear).it is the Rizzo factor... They are only tourists, what do they know... Remember when Michael Eisner said monkeys can run a theme park??? Well, guess we was wrong cause these monkeys can't run anything right...


I'm not trying to be negative. I believe that all of us *love* WDW or we wouldn't be on here posting. And things have to change. AND no matter what decision that management makes, they can't please everyone. You aren't being negative... You are being realistic.. In Disney fan universe, being realistic is being negative or all doom and gloom... Don't you know the only way you can be a Disney fan is if you accept the crud they pass off to consumers??? The only true fans are those who always talk glowingly of a declining product... Be critical of the poor decisions, then you are not a true fan...

The one thing that makes me laugh is when you are critical and live in the real world instead of a pixie dusted laced fantasy world, the pitch forks come out to try to shut you up... Is it anyone's fault that people can't live in reality or are blind to the decline??? And why should those who want to hold Disney accountable be shut up??? Sad commentary on society that we need to shut up those who speak the truth and refuse to just with the brainwashed masses...


So, is it really that bad now? Or are we just remembering the good ol' days, and maybe they weren't as good as we think they were? Is it bad??? Well, it could be worse... Not everything is bad... Just a large portion of it... Remember, DL went through the same decline and dark days before the 50th... Then TDA/TDB woke up, replaced the do-nothing management team that ran the park into the ground and replaced them with people who cared... Now, DL is rated way ahead of WDW (when the opposite was always true for years)... Which leads me to:


Lastly, will changes be coming, and we'll all be happy 5-10 years from now with everything that Disney has done to our Vacation Kingdom?yes, changes will be coming... Slowly, but they will be... Iger leaves in 2015 (again, more than likely before that)... he'll be escorting Staggs or Rasulo or both out the door with him... Meg Crofton will be leaving as well (for her own personal reasons which will not get mentioned)... Management changes will no doubt occur during this time... Just watch for who replaces Meg...

The other thing is, WDW is getting its backside handed to it by a certain boy wizard up the road... The numbers are not adding up for WDW anymore and they are running scared... Hotel occupancy down to 60% (usually in the 80's), Magical Express not as busy as it used to be, spending in WDW is really down despite the spending income (higher prices will do that), and attendance is lagging (Disney's domestic parks up only 1% carried on the shoulders by DCA and DL getting double digit percentage gains in attendance)... So they will be forced to do something... And that something is currently in the works... I wouldn't doubt if they announce it relatively soon...

[Stu29573]

I really do think there needs to be a new attitude at WDW management. For instance, take my last trip. They were just rolling out a new computer system at the resorts and it crashed. Everyone that checked in on the day that we did lost their dining plans, room reservations, and any requests that had been made. I usually don't make requests, but since this was a birthday trip for my wife, we had made a couple.

Over the next three days we were repeatedly told that everything would be fixed and to just enjoy our stay. The only problem is that it wasn't. I had to spend over four hours of valuable park time in the concierge line to work out overcharges, room selections, etc. That doesn't even coint the time I spent on my phone while at the parks trying to get it all worked out.

They finally got everything settled and we got a room upgrade and a free night, but the overall effect on the trip was my first Disney epic fail. I even thought about making it my last trip, and I have loved Disney forever.

My point is that the whole issue was mismanaged. The computer issue never should have happened. When it did happen, those guests affected should have been given the VIP treatment and everything cleared up immediately. We should have known that top brass was working the problem and not just the poor CM's at the resort level. ( I had the distinct impression that noone had any idea what was going on) Yes, the free night was nice, but the hours lost and the ill feelings we had (have) can't be undone. Part of the magic died for us that trip, and it didn't need to happen.

Something needs to change.

[Mickey'sIrishPAl]

I think some of the "ill will" comes from the computer age. I read several WDW blog sites and complaining is running rampant, it drives me crazy! Yes, the price has gone up...EVERYTHING has gone up...look at the price of gasoline. If Disney changes a ride people complain, if they take one away for something newer people complain, if they change nothing people complain; they just can't win.

I love Disney World, my family has had wonderful vacations there and plan to have more in the future. If the price goes up, we just won't be able to go as often...but we still plan to go. We don't need free dining, we don't ask for a break on the price of a room before we go....we just pay the fee and go. Because we are Disney People....we love it there! :mickey:

Very well said and I agree 100%.

[DVC2004]

Things are definitely different. I know that our 2001 trip we raved about the service. we stayed at the Poly and we felt like royalty. It's just not the same now. In fact, we just recently stayed onsite at Universal and I know their hotels are Loews, but boy did they go out of their way to give good service. Really and truly. I haven't felt that way about a Disney hotel stay in a while I'm sad to say. I'll give you an example. We stayed at Aulani recently. Now I know it's not in Disneyworld but itis Disney. We checked in pretty late around 10 pm. The cast member who checked us in was very nice and she got another cast member to get us leis. She then told us go out to the front in the morning and see the cultural representatives because they give out different leis each day. So the next day we were exploring and made it a point to go see the ladies in the front. We asked and they said didn't you get a lei at check in??? You only get one! Sort of snippy. I explained what the other CM had told us and she said sorry that's wrong, everyone only gets one. Well OK fine. We really weren't trying to get more than our share but the two up there made us feel bad for asking. Also, my husband had paid out of pocket for an airport lei greeting for all of us so it wasn't like we needed them. However it was not a very Disney -like experience and quite honestly, poor service in general.

I worked for Disney in recent years and while I was there it was very good. But the economy turned and things changed, and it was not the same. And although I enjoy the parks and always will, I see things with a different point of view now. And yes, it sometimes spoils the magic.

[Quadstriker]

SO, first off, I apologize to anyone whom i've been grumpy with, especially the moderators and QuadStriker.

I never felt like you were grumpy, just passionate.


As for the "Disney Downturn", It does feel like a change of high brass management is the only way the attitude of "get every last dollar" will change.

I feel like the economy crash also has played a very heavy role in this.

[A Big Kid]

What I hate the most. Aside from a charachter meal or some heatlamp warmed clone (yes, clone) sandwhich, you can not get a good breakfast in the parks anymore. Oh how I miss my cinnamon roll appetizer before breakfast at Tony's.

[Gator]

Good grief, Charlie Brown! From what I'm hearing, people will hate Disney soon and stop going, thus bankrupting the empire. :drama:

First off, the dining quality has not gone down - all because of the DDP. When I first went, my lunch at the Castle was just OK(still the same), the selection at SciFi was pretty plain (nothing's changed there), and San Angel Inn served bland texmex(still the same). Liberty Tree has improved, the burger joints at MK still have the fixens bar, and I had my best steak ever at LeCellier on our last trip 2011. The food isn't worse, and it isn't better. It's still good, and I still like the DDP.

Second: the parks are better today than they were 10 years ago. MK has a new fantasyland and new dining options. Epcot has Mission:Space, a soon to be updated TestTrack, an up-to-date SSE, kid friendly Seas and Mexico boat ride. DHS has an updated StarTours, which I can't wait to ride. How about Toy Story Mania? Throw in the AI Exp and the LMA, that's plenty of new stuff. And AK has added ExEv and a really fun live show with Nemo. Sound like a pretty good 10 year run for the parks.

Third: the resorts are constantly getting updated. All of the mods have had AT LEAST one refurb in the last 10 years. There are two new, really nice value resorts. If anything, I think the bus service is better now than it was back in 2002.

Fourth: the reason they're offering deals to get to WDW is because the economy is in the tank. Not because people don't like the low quality of Disney. It's simple marketing: keep the prices the same or go up with them, but offer deals to entice people to come until the economy is doing well. When I went in 2002, there was NO deal for my honeymoon trip, but now there's all sorts of deals. People have quoted Iger from back in 2010as saying the deals will be rolled back, but the free dining deal has gone from Hurricane season to August through February. Not exactly rolling back,eh?

Are these the dark days for Disney? I think not. Maybe it is for America and it's economy - again this being the reason for all the discounts - but not for Disney. Is this their finest hour? Of course not. But from what I just listed, WDW is doing a pretty good job and keeping me coming back for more. :balloon:

[Dsnygirl]

I think some of the "ill will" comes from the computer age. I read several WDW blog sites and complaining is running rampant, it drives me crazy!

I think you are really hitting the nail on the head with this one... there are a LOT of issues out there, but it's true... complaining & negativity just seems viral on the computer.

I used to read comments to local news stories, etc., until I just couldn't handle it anymore... there was RARELY anything positive!! I think people just really love the chance to get things off their chest w/o the accountability of having to say it to someone in person... and although that's not quite as true re: Disney, seeing as very few of us would really ever have the chance to share our thoughts with anyone in a position to really listen and make a change, being able to vent and get our disgruntled feelings off our chest seems to be something that works in these online forums.

Thankfully, we have a place here where it's pretty balanced... people have the chance to vent, but we also have people who are "meh" about the negative stuff and stay sunny & cheerful, and it reminds us of all the good things we may allow our frustrations to overshadow. :)

I think the OP's thought that over time, we remember things more fondly also plays into it... I know that we've had trips that were good, and trips that were GREAT... but somehow, 6 months out, they ALL become great and it's easier to see the changes we hear about negatively b/c we like how it WAS.

Things have definitely changed, and the almighty dollar definitely seems to be a huge focus, pleasing the investors, etc... and I'm admittedly a bit nervous about some of the decisions being forced on all of us who just love Disney, and want the magic without all the rest. ;)

All that to say... I think this is a cool thread... can't wait to read more comments! :thumbsup:

[Utopia74]

Seems like all the ones who complain (about the food quality, etc) are still the ones going at least once a year.
If it's bad, then don't go. There's other places to vacation than Disney World. Vegas has great food and no dining plan, go there.

From a food standpoint, I was there in '05 (pre dining plan), and then again in '08, '09, and '10.
If anything, the food has gotten even better with time. Of course, we stick mainly to the Signature Dining places. I can see where maybe the Counter Service places have gone downhill, but if you're expecting burgers & fries at an amusement park to be gourmet, you're misguided.

[darthmacho]

Good grief, Charlie Brown! From what I'm hearing, people will hate Disney soon and stop going, thus bankrupting the empire. :drama:


Well THAT isn't going to happen! :mickey:

I do think WDW has some issues to overcome, and as I've said, quality of service in some places is one of them.

Nevertheless, I highly agree on two points you made and wanted to comment again.

1. Food quality has not got down: Actually, I guess I disagree with you here because you say it has never been great to begin with. In any case, I feel like we had some of the best WDW meals we ever had at WDW this year with highlights being Artist Point, Mama Melrose, and Boma.

2. You say the parks are better than they were 10 years ago. Sure, some things can be improved, and others need a refurb, but I think the parks are better than they were on our first trip in 1998.


As for people not going, I certainly won't be one of them. We've spent 8, 10, and 14 days respectively at WDW on our last three trips to FL, and not once did I ever regret not going to that other theme park. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike them either, but to me WDW will always be the best! :mickey:

[Aurora]

I think you are really hitting the nail on the head with this one... there are a LOT of issues out there, but it's true... complaining & negativity just seems viral on the computer.

I used to read comments to local news stories, etc., until I just couldn't handle it anymore... there was RARELY anything positive!! I think people just really love the chance to get things off their chest w/o the accountability of having to say it to someone in person... and although that's not quite as true re: Disney, seeing as very few of us would really ever have the chance to share our thoughts with anyone in a position to really listen and make a change, being able to vent and get our disgruntled feelings off our chest seems to be something that works in these online forums.

Thankfully, we have a place here where it's pretty balanced... people have the chance to vent, but we also have people who are "meh" about the negative stuff and stay sunny & cheerful, and it reminds us of all the good things we may allow our frustrations to overshadow. :)

I think the OP's thought that over time, we remember things more fondly also plays into it... I know that we've had trips that were good, and trips that were GREAT... but somehow, 6 months out, they ALL become great and it's easier to see the changes we hear about negatively b/c we like how it WAS.

Things have definitely changed, and the almighty dollar definitely seems to be a huge focus, pleasing the investors, etc... and I'm admittedly a bit nervous about some of the decisions being forced on all of us who just love Disney, and want the magic without all the rest. ;)

All that to say... I think this is a cool thread... can't wait to read more comments! :thumbsup:

You may be right about pining for how it USED to be. But that's because in my trips in earlier years, we never ran into grumpy CMs. (And I do mean never, and I'm not remembering wrong.) We didn't have to worry about when the monorail was going to stop running. The effects on the rides were awesome because they worked.

And, the focus wasn't so much on the "theme park experience" as the "Mickey Mouse" experience. There was more of an innocence there that is gone now, replaced with something more cynical. Plus, something that has nothing to do with Disney, people in general were better behaved.

While I do get upset about changes at WDW for the worse, I also believe we are now a nation of complainers, of people who believe that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I wonder how much all of this plays into how much we enjoyed our trips in the late 1990s and early 2000s vs. how much we enjoy them now.

One last point: On our last two trips we visited Universal. Both times we didn't encounter any CMs who didn't seem happy to be there. The comparison between Universal and Disney was surprising to me; on our trip last June, there were many, many unhappy CMs at Disney. If you closed your eyes and couldn't see their name tags, you wouldn't have guessed correctly where they worked.

[BrerGnat]

Dark days? That's a bit dramatic. I would have said that the mid 80's was the dark age at WDW...

Now, I don't particularly see what a lot of people seem to. Sure, there are occasional poor CM's. Yes, things don't always run smoothly. In fact, I was quite critical of Art of Animation's food court in recent posts. And yeah, there are cut backs and instances where things are not working 100% of the time. But, you know, the majority of that stuff doesn't really bother me and in fact, I don't notice most of what I read about online.

My feeling in general is that your OVERALL attitude in life reflects how you perceive things to be. If you go through life with a negative attitude, everything will seem like "the worst."

I suppose a lot of this comes from the entitlement attitude of many people these days and the lack of any sort of real sacrifice in day to day living. It feels like people go to WDW these days demanding and expecting perfection, and then they are let down and come back and rail about it.

I think the parks are still amazing. I think WDW is starting to fall behind Disneyland (in terms of overall value and experience) but it has been that way for a long time. However, the numbers don't lie. Magic Kingdom is still #1 domestically, with 17 million visitors last year.

Now, where I do see a problem is with the overall pricing structure that Disney (both coasts) feel is "appropriate." The recent massive price hikes for APs (Disneyland) as well as the hotel rack rates that continue to be WAY out of the ballpark for the industry make me shake my head. BUT, I still contend that anyone who is paying rack rate is a fool. I have NEVER once paid rack rate at Disney, due to numerous discounts going way back to 1998 when I first took a trip on my own dime in college. I am fortunate to be eligible for the military discount, and I appreciate that Disney does that. However, I would not pay rack rate at Disney ever and feel like I had a good experience for the price. After going on a Disney cruise and seeing what Disney CAN do, the pricing seems even more obscene. Disney really needs a reality check on that, but I feel like their continuation of discount offers even after they said they were going to stop them speaks to that. They know they are pricing people out, and they know they can't keep that up long.

[DizneyFreak2002]

First off, the dining quality has not gone down - all because of the DDP. When I first went, my lunch at the Castle was just OK(still the same), the selection at SciFi was pretty plain (nothing's changed there), and San Angel Inn served bland texmex(still the same). Liberty Tree has improved, the burger joints at MK still have the fixens bar, and I had my best steak ever at LeCellier on our last trip 2011. The food isn't worse, and it isn't better. It's still good, and I still like the DDP.

DDP has killed dining... No one can honestly say otherwise... The food choices have been limited, menus have shrunk, the food has become bland... As I said in my post, yes it has gotten better, but not to the top quality it used to be... And not worth the prices they charge... Better meals can be had off property.... and for cheaper too...



Second: the parks are better today than they were 10 years ago. MK has a new fantasyland and new dining options. Epcot has Mission:Space, a soon to be updated TestTrack, an up-to-date SSE, kid friendly Seas and Mexico boat ride. DHS has an updated StarTours, which I can't wait to ride. How about Toy Story Mania? Throw in the AI Exp and the LMA, that's plenty of new stuff. And AK has added ExEv and a really fun live show with Nemo. Sound like a pretty good 10 year run for the parks.

Parks are not better today than 10 years ago... New Fantasyland is only eye candy with very little substance.. A cloned dark ride which already has no wait time in DCA, Test Track isn't Disney's doing... GM is footing the entire bill and even went as far as to tell WDI that THEY will do the prefab of the minimal show scenes... Mission Space has been such a success that their plan to clone the attraction world wide went smoothly.. Wait, never mind, they never cloned it because MS isn't the success they thought it would be... Siemens paid for the redo of SSE and well, that descent is spectacular (black curtains, exposed chicken wire).. Let's not even get into that dumbed down narration by a boring Judy Dench... DHS' updated Star Tours was FORCED onto TDO who refused it, and when they realized they were going to lose, begged for a cheaper version of it... TSMM is only a Wii video game on wheels... In fact, you can actually buy the game for Wii... And it is also a product of poor capacity thus inflating wait times... AI is a waste and never should have been added into any theme park, let alone a Disney park... LMA is horrible and constantly rated as the least likely show to get a return visit (one of the reasons it is going away soon thankfully), not to mention it is a legal issue for the company as well... Everest is now just a coaster with a mountain theme... majority of the effects don't work, the Yeti is broken for the last 6 years, and now, how magical is this.. wait for it.. you can now see the TRAIN BARN since they ripped out all the bamboo... HOW MAGICAL!!!!!



Third: the resorts are constantly getting updated. All of the mods have had AT LEAST one refurb in the last 10 years. There are two new, really nice value resorts. If anything, I think the bus service is better now than it was back in 2002.

Talk to the Poly resort about being updated... The resort is in such bad shape, don't expect it to be the same resort in the next 5 years... And yes, include DVC in that... And bus transportation is constantly rated as mediocre...



Fourth: the reason they're offering deals to get to WDW is because the economy is in the tank. Not because people don't like the low quality of Disney. It's simple marketing: keep the prices the same or go up with them, but offer deals to entice people to come until the economy is doing well. When I went in 2002, there was NO deal for my honeymoon trip, but now there's all sorts of deals. People have quoted Iger from back in 2010as saying the deals will be rolled back, but the free dining deal has gone from Hurricane season to August through February. Not exactly rolling back,eh?

Iger says things to appease the shareholders who hate seeing people getting rooms at 60 bucks a night... They want people paying 400... And those deals have been so successful that the resorts are doing 60% capacity... If they didn't have those deals, image the ghost town the resorts would be???

People are getting smarter about the dollar then spend... They are finding you get nicer rooms for less price off property... Thus, they are staying off property more and more...



Are these the dark days for Disney? I think not. Maybe it is for America and it's economy - again this being the reason for all the discounts - but not for Disney. Is this their finest hour? Of course not. But from what I just listed, WDW is doing a pretty good job and keeping me coming back for more. :balloon:

Dark days may be drastic, but these days are the best for WDW by any long shot... They are teetering... And they know it... The numbers really aren't good for WDW... They have entered their down turn and until this management team is out or the upper management team removes any decision making from TDO, thing aren't going to get much better...

[DizneyFreak2002]

You may be right about pining for how it USED to be. But that's because in my trips in earlier years, we never ran into grumpy CMs. (And I do mean never, and I'm not remembering wrong.) We didn't have to worry about when the monorail was going to stop running. The effects on the rides were awesome because they worked.

Doesn't stink pining for the days when they actually cared about show and giving the guests more bang for their buck?? Giving them reasons to spend money and buy quality merchandise?? Pining for the days they at least acted like they cared about the guest and not their next huge bonus check... Yea, shame we pine for quality and not accepting the crud they force down our throats now...


One last point: On our last two trips we visited Universal. Both times we didn't encounter any CMs who didn't seem happy to be there. The comparison between Universal and Disney was surprising to me; on our trip last June, there were many, many unhappy CMs at Disney. If you closed your eyes and couldn't see their name tags, you wouldn't have guessed correctly where they worked.

It is all about morale... Where is the morale higher today?? At a theme park that shutters attractions, runs them at 50% show ready, hassles CMs, and has remained stagnant for years or a theme park that has seen attendance increase 30% one year, 29% another, huge increased in customer spending, huge increases in customer satisfaction, and tons of momentum going for it the next 10 years while your competitor throws press events for new BENCHES???

Yes CM morale is down and it shows... Universal Team Member morale is up and guess what??? It shows!!!!

[BraddyB]

I have a slightly different take on this. Is this the dark days? No but if they continue at this rate, they can call it Six Flags of Orlando.

But I think what got them into this situation is being Comfortable.

You know you will have your visitors who will come atleast once a year. You know that little kids will beg their parents to go see that Castle that is on the screen before Disney Movies start. You know you will get your share of honeymooners and people returning for anniversaries.

When you put that together without much competition from surrounding parks, you get "comfortable" and slightly lazy. Sorta like a marriage, when its new you are putting you best foot forward, but as time goes on you get "comfortable" and take each other for granted without realizing it.

Well Disney, the honeymoon is over. Harry Potter and you can include Sea World has the attention of your spouse. Its time to get back to work and make that person realize why they fell in love with you. The last thing you want to do is go through a divorce ..

[KevMcNJ]

This sounds like every other thread I read on the auto racing forums I visit every day. This track is doomed. This series is doomed. The TV ratings are down, the tracks arent selling out. Its all going to be gone within 2 years Things were better in the old days.

Gloom and doom gloom and doom gloom and doom

You will never re-live your good ole days.
They were great. But they are gone.

95% of the racing fans have no idea what the TV ratings were for last weeks races or that the crowd is off by 10% from the previous year

But about 95% of those that are aware of the ratings and attendance #s are the ones who are on the message board 7 days a week

Sort of like the 95% who visit WDW once or twice a decade. They show up and have fun and say that was fun and I cant wait til we come back again.

They have no idea about how many people dislike the Space Mtn Refurb or how the Yeti isnt working like he used to

But the 5% that are aware of those things are the ones who come here.

Theres nothing wrong with being That Guy (or Girl) but sometimes one gets too close or too invested to see its really not as bad as you think it is.

Im lucky enough to be able to visit WDW once every few years and when I go Im not counting light bulbs that are burned out or garbage cans that havent been emptied

Im visitng my Happy Place

And its still looking great. Dare I say it looks better than it did when I visited in 1971 and even 1991

Lighten up and enjoy the ride Things arent as gloomy as you think they are :mickey:

[MrPeetrie]

...Lighten up and enjoy the ride Things arent as gloomy as you think they are :mickey:

Last year, we returned after a four-year absence. I remember wondering, "How far had Disney regressed since my last visit?" There were so many negative posts that I was sure we'd have a poor time. That was far from the truth. It was one of our best vacations. The CMs were amazing. (I was expecting them to be short-staffed, over-worked, and miserable.) The truth is: if they need three CMs to cover a service, there were four or five there. I was very pleasantly pleased.

With that said:
I still have some concerns. My fear is they will go the way of GM (i.e. taking a loyal customer for granted. Provide less, charge more, and one day suddenly wake up needing restructuring.)


I hate the Dining Plan. My wife is small business owner, when we are paid prior to providing a service, the incentive to excel has been diminished. I think Disney figured it this way: Each family budgets $xx.xx amount of dollars for a trip. When they arrive, a large portion of their budget will go to food. But what if the food part was already paid in advance? Would the guest still bring the same amount to spend? If so, that would mean more $$ for Disney. Unfortunately, the incentive to provide quality food service has disappeared. I think we've all seen Disney's food slip in the past few years and I think it's no coincidence it coincides with the addition of the DDP.
Ride breakdowns. It seems to me that there are more rides becoming "darker" in an attempt to mask the non-functioning aspect of the attraction.
I am leary of this upcoming NexGen FastPass. I read (or heard in a podcast on this site) that since the current FastPass didn't generate the added revenue Disney anticipated, this new version will address the problem. Disney thought if they freed up the customer from waiting in line for an attraction, the guest would then be more likely to shop and thus spend more money. The problem is: we only budget for $xx.xx amount of money to spend. People will try to stay within their budget. So this new FastPass will then try to cram more people in the park, but handle the large crowd more efficiently. The problem here is: are we really enjoying ourselves if it's shoulder-to-shoulder, but well managed? I don't think so.


It just seems to me those at the top of the Disney corporate ladder are more concerned with squeezing each dime from us and less concerned with our overall experience. If that trend continues, I fear it will lead to their downfall.

[darthmacho]

DDP has killed dining... No one can honestly say otherwise... The food choices have been limited, menus have shrunk, the food has become bland... As I said in my post, yes it has gotten better, but not to the top quality it used to be... And not worth the prices they charge... Better meals can be had off property.... and for cheaper too...


I don't know, I have to politely disagree. We just got back from a 14 day trip, and I swear on my life that we ate really well a table service restaurants, and I enjoyed most of the quick service food too.

What I did notice was a lot of bad service at the QS restaurants, and average to decent at TS.

[A Big Kid]

I don't know, I have to politely disagree. We just got back from a 14 day trip, and I swear on my life that we ate really well a table service restaurants, and I enjoyed most of the quick service food too.

What I did notice was a lot of bad service at the QS restaurants, and average to decent at TS.

I counter your disagreement. We used to consider dining an attraction to be enjoyed. To us, it is nothing more than something to be endured.

Menus used to be imaginative and unique. They are nothing more than slight variations on the same food from restaurant to restaurant.

DDP and character meals (read: overpriced under quality buffets) are the rule of the day.

Our trips have become fewer, farther between, and shorter.

[BrerGnat]

Menus used to be imaginative and unique. They are nothing more than slight variations on the same food from restaurant to restaurant.


And, I counter this point with: if the "imaginitive" and "unique" menus were REALLY selling well, they would have not changed them. The truth is, they offer what PEOPLE ORDER. Going back to a previous poster's "5%" rule, if only 5% of the people are ordering the lamb, or the bison, or the duck entree (just very crude examples), they are not going to keep offering it! They are going to dumb down the menus only if that is what the sales trends show people want. My mom used to be a restaurant manager, and I used to work in a fast food place in high school and even then, if an item wasn't selling, you'd order less and less of it until finally, it would just go away from the menu. Restaurants are a balancing act.

I do fault the DDP for artificially inflating the prices of the food while lowering the quality, but the argument about unique and inventive menus doesn't really hold water here. The DDP is not to blame for that...people's tastes are.

[Disney Hungarian]

I wanted to say so much when this question was posted yesterday morning. I decided to give this some thought before posting.

I am fortunate that I have taken so many trips and have stayed at so many resorts. But, that has its downside too. Disney has spoiled me with the "Magical Moments." I don't want or expect them. But, it sure is nice when it happens. Knowing how good Disney can be, allows me to know when Disney isn't up to snuff too. Therefore, my conclusion to this being the "Dark Days" for Disney is: Maybe

From a business perspective:
WDW is failing because it lacks consistency. I can say that my 4 trips so far this year have been anything but consistent. The trips have ranged from AWESOME to AWFUL all within 7 months. I don't think any business can last with this happening.

Maybe this is the "Dark Days" or maybe this is the beginning of the end, or maybe the beginning of a turn around. Only time will tell. One thing that does seem obvious is that things will start to happen. WDW suffering through 60% occupancy rates can not last long. They will be forced to do something. I can only hope they do the "right" thing.

[Stu29573]

Other than finding an amazing lack of seafood even at the seafood places (is salmon REALLY the only fish in the ocean?) we really enjoy teh food. That said, they have room for improvement.

[Gator]

DDP has killed dining... No one can honestly say otherwise...

Parks are not better today than 10 years ago...



:crying::fit: Easy does it, Anton Ego (reference Ratatouille). I agree with DarthMacho above - the food is just fine. My last trip, I had some really good food. Some had gotten better, some is exactly as good as it was when I tasted it 10 years ago. None of it has become worse in my opinion, and obviously other's opinions as well.

And yes, parks are better than 10 years ago. And I listed all the new attractions that make them better. If all those new attractions don't light your fire, I doubt anything truly will.

[jimsgal05]

I ahve to agree in 2009 we had free dining food was awesoem everywhere we had TS so this yr I book at a few same palces as that trip.. but I was TRUELY suprised in a huge way at the CASTLE for breakfast ..6 entrees that were very creative..I have the menu I can't figure out to post here...but I ahve to say MAma rosies staff excellent but the shrimp past was better in 2009 ther was more of it and more sundried tom. it seamed plain FYI new top chef at Coral reef the lobster soup is awful we all tried my daughters..OMG YUCK we are from maien so LOBSTER is a staple the soup had no teaste and we told the waitor he was "wicked" nice he said noone has liked it since the new chef has changed it!!!! WOW... even at the Crystal palce I was meh... in 2009 it was WOW...then again our waitress was meh, but the food was "POPPING" like it had been...even my DD6 noticed... I ahve to say NORWAY CS was verygood and JApan Dinning was excellent... thank goodness!!! but CS at england the fish was greasy...strange..I have my CS there every yr never greasy... I was just there... They definately need to add more fish and salad with the pasta meal well i quess we will see...

[phillydan]

I look at this from a slightly different perspective. All of the positive changes done in the past few years (new attractions, hotel refurbs, etc) will ALWAYS be overshadowed by the failure to execute the basics (CM rudeness, non-working ride elements, slow restaurant service, etc.). These will always be the things that people will remember. Once a company forgets how to do that basic, daily execution, they loose their competitive advantage. It is all about reinventing yourself while still meeting that basic customer expectation.

As other posters have said, Disney is all over the place and not showing consistency in their decision making and delivery. The ratio of hits and misses is pretty much even; management should be doing the right things (not always the expensive things) to tip the scale back to the win column.

Will I still go? Of course. Will I expect to be blown away completely every time? Not likely.
:twocents:

[Buttercup]

Listen. Some people like the food and choices available. Some don't. Nobody can win that disagreement. Neither side is "right" because it's a purely subjective argument!

I've been going to WDW since the 1970's. I've seen a lot of changes over the years. Some I enjoyed, some I didn't. But I don't look at the parks with a microscope. I tend to look at my vacations "OVERALL". And they've all been great.

You know, I tend to be a big neat freak - to the point that I'm a little OCD about how I keep my house. Friends come over and ALWAYS comment on how "pristine" my house is... but I only see the scuff on the baseboard by the front door... and the fingerprints on the patio door. I focus on the negatives of my house, instead of being grateful for the fact that it IS a great house I should be proud of. I'm working on that. :)
The same goes for Disney World -- you can either choose to see those imperfections and feel contempt about peeling paint and shame that something wasn't working while you were there, or you can enjoy the experience as a whole. I choose the latter. I don't think things have gotten to the point where I'm ashamed to recommend Disney to anyone. I hope they never get to that point. But I don't feel like we're anywhere NEAR "dark days" at WDW.

[darthmacho]

I counter your disagreement. We used to consider dining an attraction to be enjoyed. To us, it is nothing more than something to be endured.

Menus used to be imaginative and unique. They are nothing more than slight variations on the same food from restaurant to restaurant.

DDP and character meals (read: overpriced under quality buffets) are the rule of the day.

Our trips have become fewer, farther between, and shorter.

Again, I politely agree to disagree, but I don't see what was watered down or similar at any of the table service restaurants at which I ate this past trip. Places like Artist Point, Mama Melrose, Yak and Yeti, La Hacienda, and even buffets like Boma had excellent food, unique choices, and enough selection to make my decisions actually difficult at times. I fail to see what's watered down by these menus. I'd concede breakfast buffets, which have the most overlap, but even that, the two I attended, Crystal Palace and Tusker House were both quality and had some fun unique choices. One drawback to the DDP is not being able to order an appetizer unless you pay out of pocket.



Listen. Some people like the food and choices available. Some don't. Nobody can win that disagreement. Neither side is "right" because it's a purely subjective argument!

This is certainly true, and why I always choose to "disagree" as opposed to saying "you're wrong". :mickey:

[Gator]

I've been going to WDW since the 1970's. I've seen a lot of changes over the years. Some I enjoyed, some I didn't. But I don't look at the parks with a microscope. I tend to look at my vacations "OVERALL". And they've all been great.

But I don't feel like we're anywhere NEAR "dark days" at WDW.

Truly refreshing. That's a great perspective. I've never had a small oversight by staff ruin my entire vacation at WDW. They've all been great.

[Stickey]

These are neither the dark, or glory days of WDW. An objective analysis will cite both positive and negative developments at WDW.

The negatives seem more obvious. It appears that decision-making is based on initial costs instead of long-term value. I do not believe that WDW management has complete authority over WDW plans and expenditures. The corporate focus on DL must be considered in its influence on improvements at WDW. It was not long ago that Eisner was considered the problem. However, delayed and incomplete maintenance at WDW, especially with the Yeti, is not acceptable.

Regarding dining, the DDP has negatively impacted prices and dining options. The claim that there are no good dining options at WDW is inaccurate. We have had many superior ts meals, featuring high quality menu options and service. Jiko and Artist point have been excellent. Several other ts locations have been very good as well. I fully support dumbing down a menu by adding a steak, while deleting a seafood item.

Our favorite month to return to WDW used to be September. Free dining has led to substantially larger crowds and hassles. WDW needs to improve its crowd control policies. The practice of allowing miscreants to run wild must stop. CM's and managers must be supported when enforcing safety and behavior violations.

Removing resort discounts while increasing rates is not a formula for success regardless of the state of the economy. Competition requires that new and exciting attractions be added to WDW in order to retain its market share.

A trip to WDW remains a good value, however its value has decreased. It is necessary to scrutinize management decisions that are flawed while supporting innovative decisions which produce improvements at WDW. Walt set the bar high and Disney fans expect this tradition to continue.

[Jared]

And yes, parks are better than 10 years ago. And I listed all the new attractions that make them better. If all those new attractions don't light your fire, I doubt anything truly will.
This has been a great thread. I have not responded fully yet because I am still trying to figure out exactly what I want to say. But I do want to comment on this.

I can accept that you believe the parks are better now than they were 10 years ago. I am not going to argue with you. But for you to make that statement unequivocally is unfair. In terms of overall upkeep, maintenance and show quality, the parks have slipped.

Does that mean we're in the "dark days?" I'm not so sure, but I'll be back to write some more later.

[Jared]

I do not believe that WDW management has complete authority over WDW plans and expenditures.
Good thing, too. If they did, we wouldn't have Star Tours 2.0 or the new Fantasyland. It is also the primary reason we are likely getting a redone Hollywood Studios.

[DizneyFreak2002]

I do not believe that WDW management has complete authority over WDW plans and expenditures.


Good thing, too. If they did, we wouldn't have Star Tours 2.0 or the new Fantasyland. It is also the primary reason we are likely getting a redone Hollywood Studios.

From talking with people who would know, here is how I understand the structure to work...

TDO/Park Ops decides what projects they need done in the parks... They ask WDI to come up with concepts, pretty much telling Imagineers what they want for the project... Imagineering develops the concepts and present them to Park Management... Park Management gets a budget number from WDI and begins chopping away at the proposals... They finalize something and go to Meg Crofton for approval... She in turn takes the proposal to Tom Staggs, he takes it to Iger.. And Iger signs off... Stagss signs off, Crofton Signs off, Park VP signs off, WDI begins work... (BTW, if I am wrong, or am off somewhere in my description, and someone knows exactly how it works, please feel free to correct me... despite what others think, my EGO isn't that big to where I can't be corrected if I am wrong)...

True, it may not always work that way... But that is the the basics of how it was explained to me.. of course, now, Iger and Staggs may not even get involved if the project is minor, like painting the roof of a resort or fixing up a kitchen in a restaurant... They only sign off if the project is major, like a large refurb, or a new attraction/park expansion...

With regard to Star Tours and New Fantasyland, TDO was over ruled by the executives over in Cali... When the green light was given to refurb Star Tours, TDO didn't want it.. They refused... Then they only wanted a partial refurb... But, thankfully, they were over ruled... And New Fantasyland was forced on them because MK was busting at the seems and crumbling (not literally but almost literally) due to the stress the park was under from TDO's decisions to shut things down without replacements and cutting park capacity... Execs in Cali (probably Burbank but possibly Glendale) saw the numbers, saw how bad capacity was, and decided something was needed... Again, over ruling TDO...

I'd much rather the huge decisions taken out of WDW managements' hands and given to the higher ups in California...

[MrPeetrie]

Forgive me for sounding ignorant, but what does TDO stand for?

[DizneyFreak2002]

Forgive me for sounding ignorant, but what does TDO stand for?

Team Disney Orlando.. the management team of WDW...

[MissMaryPoppins]

However, the type of people (sorry this is very generalizing and sterotyping, and of course I don't mean everybody) that I've lately encountered at the TS and signature dining places are not really people that you would normally expect to be dining with....

I don't like to be this way and I'm really not a snob, but I have to agree with lawgirl with the type of people I've seen. Not just in the restaurants but all over the resort. It seems to me since Disney started the free dining plan and room rate deals, the type of people coming to the parks aren't what you'd expect to see. I don't mean everyone who takes advantage of these deals falls in this category but there's some and they're noticeable. These are the people I see in EPCOT who get sloppy drunk and act like maniacs, they scream and carry on during rides and shows, complain about lines, prices, heat. They act as if they're entitled to everything. I believe that because it's easier for people like this to come to Disney and they're standards aren't as high as those of people who have been to Disney World many times, Disney thinks they can get away with cutting corners on the quality of things from merchandise to food to rides to cast members. In March I was in Disney for the weekend with some friends and these changes stood out to me on that stay. Saratoga Springs pool areas were a mess, we saw the same dead mouse next to a bush for 3 days, housekeeping took all the extra towels we had sent to our room. At the parks I noticed many people like I mentioned earlier. The one thing that surprised me happened in the shop at the American Adventure. I saw a really cute little girls shirt with Minnie on it and I held up and said to my friends "this is so adorable, I wish I had someone to buy it for." I put it back and the cast member working in the shop came over and told me how she wanted to buy it for her niece but even with her discount didn't want to pay the price so she was going to damage it and then buy it at an even greater discount at the company store. I thought to myself "how does this girl know I'm not working for Disney and doing a secret shopper kind of thing?". I can remember going to Disney from the time I was little through my 20's and it was so special and so different from anything else and now it's just not like that. It's lost something and I believe who ever is in charge of operations of the resorts and parks is to blame. They need to take a good look at what the parks and resorts have become and make some positive, exciting changes so Disney World is as special as it once was.

[Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Da Disney]

Im just suprised at a lot of this. I have always appreciated going to WDW and I always enjoy myself. I think the resteraunts are good are the best I have ever been to no but the atmosphere is some of the best Ive ever seen. I think some of these comments are very ungrateful (at least in my opion). I dont think Disney World is bad at all I personally love it. That doesnt mean I dont dislike some things that disney has done. (Ex. Closing of Snow
White's Scary Adventure) But overall I think you should be extremely grateful to got to disney becasue many people dont have that opprotunity.

[BrerSchultzy]

I think this whole thread is a fine example of "Familiarity breeds contempt". People long for the "good ole days" because we didn't know nearly as much about the operations or even the possibilities. There was no competition to compare WDW to. Rides broke down all the time back in the good ole days, but we just came to expect that. I remember going three straight summers before I ever got on Test Track. Heck, there were five straight shows of Kitchen Kabaret that we had to walk out of because the AAs didn't work right. My dad jokes about how often Space Mountain used to break down when he was on it. Anybody else remember waiting 2 hours to ride Splash Mountain, with no Fast Pass, then getting on during a thunderstorm?
With all the information we have these days, I think we've come to hold WDW to impossibly high standards. Sure, they could do better in a lot of arenas....CMs aren't the quality they used to be (which I would only slightly disagree with...remember, they've expanded their workforce exponentially since the late 80s, because they added two theme parks and over a dozen resorts....they've had to settle in some areas). I would love for TDO to green-light more projects...I do feel like Imagineering is wasted potential. And I think the DDP has made WDW Dining a little complacent. But it's still where we choose to spend our money, because there's still no vacation like it. If that means I'm encouraging the "dark days" to continue...then so be it. The Dark Days of Disney are still way better than Atlantic City or Pigeon Forge.

[Renfairwedding]

Saratoga Springs pool areas were a mess, we saw the same dead mouse next to a bush for 3 days,
A sure sign of the "dark days" :thedolls:


Team Disney Orlando.. the management team of WDW...

Thank you for clearing that up.


I think Disney is still a great deal and a fun place to be.

With Disney employing so many people chances are a few will not fully embrace the magic. Too bad those are the ones we will remember.

As for food, I think its fine and maybe better in places.

We can't wait to return in December. :mickey:

[MrPeetrie]

Thank you, DizneyFreak2002.

[texas211]

Many times when we go, I swear it'll be our last.. b/c of all these reasons. But Disney is like a drug, and they know they have you hooked. I guess it's still good enough, and I think "good enough" is all they plan for.

If it's broke, don't fix it. If it's working, fix it. Summarizes it.. Kudos for posting!

[DizneyFreak2002]

Thank you for clearing that up.



Thank you, DizneyFreak2002.

You are more than welcome... :)

[KevMcNJ]

I've never had a small oversight by staff ruin my entire vacation at WDW. They've all been great.

Our vacation wasnt ruined, but theres been only one CM that I can remember being a jerk

He was working the entrance at DHS.

And he was a big enough jerk that we did report him.

I hope he was fired.

[Gator]

Our vacation wasnt ruined, but theres been only one CM that I can remember being a jerk

He was working the entrance at DHS.

And he was a big enough jerk that we did report him.

I hope he was fired.

Wahaha! Yeah, I've had one of those at the fastpass line at ToT. He's was all in my face. I just contacted management about him, and told him "you're just mad cuz your dressed that way."

[TheVBs]

We've been going roughly every couple of years since 1999. Each time we go I worry that we won't have as much fun as the last time, because the last time was amazing! But each trip has been amazing and left us wanting more. :mickey: We absolutely feel that we are getting the value we hope for and more out of each trip.

CM's - Out of all of our trips I can only definitely remember one bad one, possibly there were two, but I can't remember for sure. So many go out of their way for us on every trip, and I remember two really wonderful ones from our last trip.

Dining - We almost always enjoy the food at the TS restaurants. I can only remember one bad meal I had and not always being pleased with what the kids meals looked like. The QS has gotten better! There are more healthy options and more variety.

Characters - each year they seem to interact even more with the kids and those are some of our most magical memories.

There are park additions that we haven't even gotten a chance to try yet on previous trips, and now there's a whole new section coming to life in MK!

Overall we have wonderful vacations there. Going there every couple of years seems to be just right for us, although there are years I miss going even though I love our other destinations too. Value is relative and only each of us individually can say whether the value is there for us. For our money, Disney has solidly delivered every time!

[mom2morgan]

Quote from Lawgirl
However, the type of people (sorry this is very generalizing and sterotyping, and of course I don't mean everybody) that I've lately encountered at the TS and signature dining places are not really people that you would normally expect to be dining with.


I don't like to be this way and I'm really not a snob, but I have to agree with lawgirl with the type of people I've seen. Not just in the restaurants but all over the resort. It seems to me since Disney started the free dining plan and room rate deals, the type of people coming to the parks aren't what you'd expect to see.

I find this a fascinating comment. Considering the high costs of a Disney vacation, I can't see anyone being able to even afford to go unless they are at LEAST a good solid middle class. I'd say that narrows the socio-economic demographic considerably. I'm having a hard time not feeling really offended.

[A Big Kid]

Im just suprised at a lot of this. I have always appreciated going to WDW and I always enjoy myself. I think the resteraunts are good are the best I have ever been to no but the atmosphere is some of the best Ive ever seen. I think some of these comments are very ungrateful (at least in my opion). I dont think Disney World is bad at all I personally love it. That doesnt mean I dont dislike some things that disney has done. (Ex. Closing of Snow
White's Scary Adventure) But overall I think you should be extremely grateful to got to disney becasue many people dont have that opprotunity.

"Ungrateful," really?! We literally pay thousands of dollars for ever diminishing quality and we are ungrateful? Just a little thought, if I'm paying a king's ransom for a vacation, and the people I'm paying should be grateful to me.

[Jared]

1. Restaurant quality has gone down - DDP to blame? Budget cuts?

2. Expansion changes (or not)- no Beastly Kingdom, Various refurbs whittled away to almost nothing (Space Mountain), new construction not up to par (Dumbo ride getting damaged, Yeti issues), buildings sitting empty, such as Wonders of Life Pavilion, the Imagination building being reduced to the Figment ride and the awful Michael Jackson movie.

3. Not fixing "the show" - various elements on multiple rides not functioning, and not getting fixed, such as COP, Splash Mountain, EE, the Great Movie Ride, Fantasmic, etc, etc.

4. Poor management decisions - from the Avatarland project announcement, to the Avatarland project suspension, to taking Splash Mountain off of nighttime EMH and adding the Country Bears and Tiki Room.

5. If it's broke, don't fix it. If it works, then let's change it! - New Fast Pass system, interactive queues instead of fixing the rides themselves.

6. Nickle & diming, price increases - charging for after hour parties, the dessert party, the possibility of a $200 add-on for an "interactive Magic Kingdom Game Experience" that is currently on the exit surveys, increase in DDP prices with less offerings, increase in overall park tickets.

7. The basic idea that management at TDO doesn't really care what the consumer wants, that they just want to justify their own decisions, whether they're wanted or not (i.e. the new costumes that CMs at the American Experience have to wear).

I'm not trying to be negative. I believe that all of us *love* WDW or we wouldn't be on here posting. And things have to change. AND no matter what decision that management makes, they can't please everyone.
I would need a month to go through all the fascinating discussion in this thread, but for now, I'm going to tackle the original post point by point.

1) I absolutely, positively, 100% agree about the decline in dining property-wide. Yes, I blame the dining plan. Menus have shrunk. Theme-specific items have slowly vanished, making a majority of the restaurants across property nearly identical. Expensive options have disappeared as well to allow Disney to continue making money on the plan. And because the dining plan is now so ubiquitous, restaurants are basically forced to participate if they want to survive. It's a shame.

2) It's a shame that the Beastlie Kingdomme section was never built. We'll never know what it could have been. If Avatar winds up on the cutting-room floor, I will lament that project as well.

The empty real-estate frustrates me, especially in Epcot. Wonders of Life sits dormant for most of he year, as does the Odyssey Restaurant. The Imagination pavilion is so sad that it deserves its own thread.

3) This is the big one. It should be at the top of the list. In fact, if not for the rampant show quality issues across the four parks, this thread wouldn't need to exist. I would be able to forgive every other misstep if Disney would begin caring about show quality. I understand that we can't always have new toys -- let's at least make sure the old toys work as they should.

I recognize that Splash Mountain is a difficult attraction to maintain. But the reality remains that not too long ago, Disney would have never allowed guests to see it in its current condition. Unfortunately, the business model has changed. It's about efficiency, not show quality. Even if Splash Mountain is in dire shape, if it can still safely transport a certain number of guests per hour, management is happy and satisfied. Expedition Everest and Dinosaur are even bigger disasters at this point.

But, you may say, most people don't realize effects are broken. They probably don't even care. To that I say, you're right, to an extent. I don't think the average guests notices these minor details that matter so much to us, at least on a conscious level. But in the past, after visiting Disney and then heading over to Universal, they go home thinking that they much preferred Disney. They may not know why, but something about Disney appealed to them. That feeling stems from the details. It must be terribly sad for an Imagineer, who spent years working on a certain attraction, to ride it one day and see it running without the details he meticulously added.

4) I have been an Avatar apologist, and I'll take that to Avatar's grave. I'm not saying it was the best choice for Animal Kingdom, but I will still excited to see what the Imagineers did with it. I was (and still am) excited for the project. As for the Splash Mountain situation, I don't know. It seems a bit strange, and I understand the outcry. But I do wonder how many people were riding it late at night. I see no other explanation.

5) I admit it -- I'm a NextGen apologist (for now, at least). I don't fully understand it yet. I don't think anybody does. Until I see what it will bring to the parks, I refuse to criticize it. I think that's only fair.

Of course, it seems that Disney would be better off spending all that money to repair and build attractions. I doubt all this new technology will change my mind on that issue. But I'm still leaving open the possibility that NextGen does add some positives to the touring experience. There is too much cash being invested in this project for it to be such a disaster. Right? Please tell me I'm right.

6) Disney has always "nickle-and-dimed" its guests. That will never change. I really can't blame Disney for that as long as we receive a stellar product in exchange for that sort of expense. I still believe Walt Disney World can provide that. And the reality is that Disney only raises prices because people are still paying them. When that stops happening, things will change. Disney may be short-sighted at times, but it's certainly not stupid.

7) I think this is true to an extent. Disney's surveys are insulting. Guests did not ask for reduced entertainment offerings and higher prices, but somehow, the surveys always seem to suggest that. I wonder how that happens.

I still think Disney cares about its guests. I don't think it cares about you. Or me. Or any individual guest. As far as Disney's concerned, we're interchangeable parts. Oh, you're not coming anymore? As long as a Brazilian or an Englishman with money is willing to take your place, no big deal. We're commodities to them. I don't have an issue with that in principle, but I fear it is part of the reason show quality has declined.

Look, I realize that these things ebb and flow. Disneyland went through a significantly rougher period 20 years ago, and look at how it has emerged. I don't think these are "dark days" -- I think this is a natural downturn on the pendulum.

The problem is that it is coming at a time when competition is at an all-time high. Universal is building its market share every day, and with all these new major E-Ticket attractions on the horizon, that will only continue. Disney should be stepping up its game now. Instead, it's folding to a theme park that is committed to taking over the market. That's the frustrating part.

I still love Walt Disney World. I am an annual passholder and cherish every day I have in the parks. I'm fully capable of looking at the parks critically while still retaining my wide-eyed optimism toward them.

I do believe that things will improve one day, probably before too long. I look forward to it.

[Mousemates]

I think some of these comments are very ungrateful (at least in my opion). I dont think Disney World is bad at all I personally love it. That doesnt mean I dont dislike some things that disney has done. (Ex. Closing of Snow
White's Scary Adventure) But overall I think you should be extremely grateful to got to disney becasue many people dont have that opprotunity.

I really don't understand your mindset, I am super grateful for the people who helped me along the way in life, I am grateful for a good education and a spouse who sacrficed for me to go get my masters (whom I later returned the favor to), I am grateful to the Lord for us both having jobs during an economic turndown...I am grateful that because of these things we can take our family to WDW on a regular basis. So I am grateful for many things.

furthermore, let me also say I enjoy disney very much, and have voted for them with my wallet for many years...but make no mistake about it, when it comes to the issue of gratitude...Disney needs to be far more grateful for me (and people like me) than I am for Disney.

As you said, the opportunity to go to disney is indeed a wonderful thing, but the opportunity is a by-product of blessing and hardwork that has nothing to do with WDW itself.

Sadly, I sometimes think that this is a point that Disney has become mistaken about in recent days...for by many of their decisions they appear to have the gratitude thing reversed as well. They cut services, they often fail to maintain the show, they allow their competition to narrow the distance, and then raise prices far beyond the rate of inflation, and expect us to be grateful that they simply allow us to come visit.

Those who air their disappointment (in what some see as a lengthy trend of decline) are not ungrateful gripers, but are far more likely to be people who's expectations were raised by the "high bar" of past experiences and who notice the incremental decline they perceive in what they get for the hard earned dollars they spend.

furthermore, in my opinion, most of those complaints are voiced not because peopel take glee in bad mouthing all things Disney, but because they genuinely want to see things truly get back on track.

On a personal note, to me the downward trend is not as steep a curve as others see...we still go, we still enjoy, and plan to do continue to so for the forseeable future. I will give them a chance to kind of right the ship and hopeful they will do so.

:twocents:

[mom2morgan]

I really don't understand your mindset,...As you said, the opportunity to go to disney is indeed a wonderful thing, but the opportunity is a by-product of blessing and hardwork that has nothing to do with WDW itself.



Well said! I'm grateful that I can afford to go to Disney - but DISNEY is not doing me any favours! I'd assume THEY are "grateful" that customers are still coming and paying, since THEY are the ones benefitting from that arrangement!
Since I DO have money to go on vacation, Disney should be working extra hard to make sure I spend it there rather than in the many other places that want my business.

[Jared]

Don't want to clog the thread by quoting, but I agree with everything Mousemates wrote. Fantastic post.

[KevMcNJ]

Wahaha! Yeah, I've had one of those at the fastpass line at ToT. He's was all in my face. I just contacted management about him, and told him "you're just mad cuz your dressed that way."

We had late dinner reservations at the Brown Derby. It was our mistake because we had the wrong day so we showed up to go in and they were closing the place down and werent letting anyone else in

We were trying to say we know its closing time but we have reservations. It could have been easily resolved if he just asked one or two questions but he instantly went into Rent-A-Cop mode and the downward spiral was on.

I think it was a Thursday and we were supposed to be there on Friday. Something like that. He was probably ready to go home and us two rubes from SC werent going to slow his exit down.

I think we ended up having a pizza delivered to our room and we made sure to visit Guest Relations the next morning

Im sure his dog paid for it that night when he got home

[azcavalier]

Well, I started this, but I have never really weighed in and shared my actual opinion. So, here's what I think (if anyone is interested):

This whole thing reminds me of when I used to work for a small, privately owned ISP in Tucson called "The River". I was one of the operations people...I maintained the servers/routers that controlled all of the data traffic. Well, our tech support personnel would constantly complain about how bad our "product" was. They would relate horror stories that they had heard from customers who called in, complaining. I then reminded them that they were fielding *maybe* 8-10 calls a day each, and many of those were "repeat offenders" who always had problems. I then asked them how often they got calls from satisfied customers, to which, of course, the answer was "never". All they ever heard was what was wrong with "The River", not what was right, and so they had this extremely negative view. We had tens of thousands of satisfied patrons. And a couple hundred that just always had issues. The product was fine.

Here on Intercot, we get a lot of complaining, much like The River's Tech Support. So I think that we start to focus on all that is wrong at WDW. There is much that is right, and due to inevitable changes in the next few years, I am hopeful that right > wrong, by a lot.

That said, I know that TDO has not concentrated on "fixing the show", which like another poster said is really the crux of the matter. If they would keep up the existing rides, the complaining on here would probably be kept to a minimum, and we'd let some of the other things slide. The bar was set so high, and now TDO has lowered their own bar. The main reason that I love WDW over all other theme parks is because of the little things, the small details. It bugs me when I ride Splash Mountain, and the Brer Rabbit bouncing along the bushes effect is off/broken. If I ride Dinosaur, and the effect of the Carnitaurous eating the smaller dino is off, i'll be a little miffed at that.

I.E. there is definitely a problem, and it's not just that "familiarity breeds contempt". Familiarity just allows us to see the problem, because we know what it's supposed to be. We're going to WDW in two months with a young family of six that has never been before. They will have a great time, because they have no idea what the rides are supposed to be like. They will never have seen the Yeti swinging at them as they blow past. They will never have seen previous versions of SSE, or have any idea what Space Mountain's refurb was supposed to look like, or that it was ever refurbed at all.

I personally think that the restaurants are just fine. For those who say that the menus across the restaurants are very similar, the first thing that popped into my mind was that this was only the case when those restaurants are similarly-themed anyway. So, yeah, i'm going to have steak options at all american restaurants. But I don't go to strictly american restaurants. We will go to Akershus, Chefs de France, Via Napoli, Kona, Boma, Teppan Edo, etc. None of those will have similar menus. So, at the end of the week, we'll feel like there was a good variety. I agree that the buffets are mostly the same, though. But you know that going in.

Regarding grumpy CMs, I question whether or not it is different during the off-season, when we typically go. I have never been to WDW during the traditional high times, and have only had ONE CM that I would complain about. (However, I was actually breaking the rules, and he was merely enforcing them. I think that the could have handled it better, but I recognize that he doesn't know me, or how I was going to react, and he was concerned with my safety, even if he went over the top.) To those who have experienced grumpy or ambivalent CMs, when were those trips? Were they seasonal help, or full-time CMs? I would think that the full-timers who are steeped in the Disney way of doing things would be fine, whereas the temporary help would be more prone to poor service. Just a thought.

And, in the end, we'll have a great time, i'm certain. As we always do. We might run in to a couple of cast members who are grumpy for whatever reason, but the CMs who bend over backwards (especially if we show them kindness to start with) will far outweigh those grumpy ones.

[Disney Hungarian]

One thing to remember is that Walt Disney World is a Resort and not a theme park. Disneyland is a theme park.

The change started many moons ago when WDW wanted to go after, and monopolize, all of the vacationers time. Laying waste to many fun roadside attractions in the process. Since the change over, the parks seem to have taken a back seat to the hotels. Now as we have all noticed; DVC construction is getting all of the green lighting. Even to the point of closing the monorail during operating hours as we saw recently.

Feel free to agree or disagree but, I feel the change that needs to be made is that of changing the business model back to at least resort=themepark.

[Jared]

Regarding grumpy CMs, I question whether or not it is different during the off-season, when we typically go.
I'm with you on this one. I'm always surprised by the number of posts I read criticizing the cast. I don't know if I'm just more forgiving or if I've been lucky, but I can't think of one terrible experience with a cast member in all my visits to the parks. Sure, I've had poor service at restaurants and have met employees who weren't necessarily thrilled to be working, but it's always been acceptable at worst. Maybe I just have a rosy attitude toward those folks.


Feel free to agree or disagree but, I feel the change that needs to be made is that of changing the business model back to at least resort=themepark.
What, you mean the Timeshare Kingdom isn't doing it for you?

[Disney Hungarian]

What, you mean the Timeshare Kingdom isn't doing it for you?
Nope. Love the "Timeshare Kingdom":rotfl:

[KevMcNJ]

Regarding grumpy CMs, I question whether or not it is different during the off-season, when we typically go. I have never been to WDW during the traditional high times, and have only had ONE CM that I would complain about. .

We always go off peak. January 2009 was when it happened

[DizneyFreak2002]

One thing to remember is that Walt Disney World is a Resort and not a theme park. Disneyland is a theme park.

The change started many moons ago when WDW wanted to go after, and monopolize, all of the vacationers time. Laying waste to many fun roadside attractions in the process. Since the change over, the parks seem to have taken a back seat to the hotels. Now as we have all noticed; DVC construction is getting all of the green lighting. Even to the point of closing the monorail during operating hours as we saw recently.

Feel free to agree or disagree but, I feel the change that needs to be made is that of changing the business model back to at least resort=themepark.

I agree with you... In fact, I think I said as much myself... I have said if it isn't a DVC project, TDO doesn't like it... WDW has become a real estate venture... The theme parks?? Eh, only secondary to real estate... Sadly, the quality shows...

[joonyer]

In all our trips, I don't ever recall having a bad experience with any CM, at at hotel or theme park; some nicer than others, to be sure, but not any incidents that I would consider reporting to management. And don't think the restuarants at WDW are bad at all, some maybe over-rated, but in fact most are much better that most other theme-park food options and many of the hotel restaurants are really good. Maybe more crowded, and noisier than they used to be (harder to get ADR's when you want them). But overall, not too bad.

But what I don't forgive is the failure to maintain the "magic"; the small details and extras that made Disney attractions so much more memorable than similar theme park attractions. When the little things, the extra animatronics (or even simple moving cutouts) aren't operating properly or need painting, and they are just allowed to sit, for weeks, months or even years now, without being fixed, well as others have said, it's just Bad Show. More than that, it results in a loss of some of the "magic that used to set Disney parks apart from the other theme parks. It's not just that others have been getting better, but that TDO has allowed the "magic" at WDW to wither a little bit too much. Makes me sad,

[RALPH]

Excellent discussion!

My boss and I were talking about this last month. The problem in our opinion is, Disney used to be a "10" on a scale of 1 to 10, where everyone else was a 6. They soon realized they could drop to a 7 or 8, and still be number 1 and make more money. I'm not so sure that is a wise strategy.


My wife and I recently discussed that this is not the same property as it was in the late 90's when we first started attending. It is noticable.

I will pay attention to the food quality on our up coming trip, to see if that has changed.

[Disney Doll]

I know I'm late, but I've always been the type who needs to mull things over.

Here's my 2 cents.

1. I think the restaurant quality is fine. We've had lots of great meals at Disney and I haven't noticed a change in that over the years. Now, I do hate the dining plan and the free dining plan just about pushes me over the edge. We purposely avoid the typical free dining periods because restaurants are just so overcrowded. I think service does suffer in those times because they just can't operate at full capacity that long without some consequence. As much as I hate dining during those times I can only imagine how horrible it must be to work in food service during those times.

2. I agree that the empty buildings are disheartening. So much untapped potential there and it's disappointing to see them wasted. However, there have been lots of great examples of expansions over the last 10 years mentioned by previous posters. In general I am happy with the new developments I've seen in that time.

3. Fixing the show is my one major complaint. The little details really do matter to me and I honestly think the Disney Park brand was built on those details that are often overlooked in other theme parks. It's the something extra that sets Disney apart and I feel like there's not enough appreciation for that. Then again, I've seen the gripes on here from people who feel like a ride should never be down and their whole vacation is ruined because one particular thing was closed for refurb so I think the customer is partly to blame on this one.

4. I don't see any horribly bad management decisions. I'm still open to Avatarland. I think it had potential and I was interested to see what would be done. Again, people want expansion, but then they complain if it doesn't fit their perfect vision. Splash Mountain for EMH doesn't bother me either. It does seem at this point that it would be easier to appease the outcry, but I honestly would not have anticipated that it would be such a big deal. It's vacant at night. You can ride multiple times and not even get out of your log because nobody else is waiting.

5. I'm not sure why the negativity for Fast Pass Plus. We really don't know exactly how that's going to work, but based on what we do know I see no reason for immediate concern. Let it play out and quit assuming the worst. I for one am excited to see what Next Gen has to offer and I think it's a smart investment. Disney Mobile Magic was a huge plus for our family and Disney made plenty of additional money from us because of it. We used to do one or two TS meals per trip because we didn't like being tied to a reservation 180 days out. Mobile Magic gave us an easy way to search last minute availability and as a result we ate TS for nearly every meal on our last couple of trips.

The interactive ques are great. Clearly those who have poo pooed those improvements have not had the pleasure of standing in line with two antsy toddlers. My kids love the new ques.

6. I get the fear about nickle and diming, but I don't feel that way at Disney yet. At Universal, yes, but for now Disney hasn't had me feeling that way. I still think the parties are worth the price and I would consider splurging for a dessert party if it was a special trip. I don't think DDP has ever been a great value. If some people would rather pay more for the assurance of a prepaid system more power to them. Park tickets are still a bargain and I 'll give you a great example. We're taking a weekend trip to Springfield, MO this weekend and I was browsing area attractions that the kids might enjoy. We'll be near Branson so Silver Dollar City came up on my search. A one day adult pass is $60 and Silver Dollar City is a far cry from WDW. I would much sooner pay $90 for a day at Disney.

7. The survey references do kind of bother me as in just tell us the truth don't dumb it down and make it seem like it's not a business decision when it clearly is. However, I wouldn't expect WDW to cater to guest opinion the way some do. The outfits at the American Pavilion, really? Is that a make or break issue for anyone's vacation? I'm fine with that change. People disagree. If you have a 100 people who think that change is horrendous you can also find 100 people who think it's great. Disney can't make decisions solely based on guest feedback.

All in all I'm pretty satisfied. We go at least once a year and always have a great time. We've never ever had a bad CM experience. In fact we've had a lot of really great ones where CM's went above and beyond for us. Maybe we've been lucky, but I tend to think it's more likely that a bad CM is a one off and certainly not the norm.

Maybe a factor or maybe not, I'm 32. I took a few trips as a kid which I remember fondly, but I wasn't old enough to really critique the experience. My DH's first trip was with me in 2000. We realized it was a vacation that we both really enjoyed and we've been taking regular trips ever since. My opinions are based solely on the last 12 years. Maybe I'm just not old enough to remember the magical golden age of WDW everyone else is so fond of?

[azcavalier]

7. The survey references do kind of bother me as in just tell us the truth don't dumb it down and make it seem like it's not a business decision when it clearly is. However, I wouldn't expect WDW to cater to guest opinion the way some do. The outfits at the American Pavilion, really? Is that a make or break issue for anyone's vacation? I'm fine with that change. People disagree. If you have a 100 people who think that change is horrendous you can also find 100 people who think it's great. Disney can't make decisions solely based on guest feedback.

What bothers me most about the surveys is that there is no real way to provide negative feedback, and if they're not interested in a guest's opinion, then what is the point of the survey? What are they, then, surveying the guests for? But the questions are manipulated so as not to be balanced, but are looking for various positive answers to whatever question they pose. It's kind of a joke, really.

[BrerGnat]

What bothers me most about the surveys is that there is no real way to provide negative feedback, and if they're not interested in a guest's opinion, then what is the point of the survey? What are they, then, surveying the guests for? But the questions are manipulated so as not to be balanced, but are looking for various positive answers to whatever question they pose. It's kind of a joke, really.

Not really. We have done a couple of surveys recently (both in person at the parks/downtown Disney as well as online). They are VERY interested in negative feedback and ask for very detailed explanations for any negative responses. I just did a survey about my stay at Art of Animation where I let them have it as far as the wi-fi was concerned. I did not hold back, and the survey actually seemed overly concerned with problems I may have experienced. We also did an in person survey at Epcot last year where we spent a good 30 min at a computer and let them know, in no uncertain terms, what we felt was wrong in the parks, what needed to go away, what needed to be updated, etc.

I don't really agree that all changes were "due to guest feedback" like they say, but who knows? Our Intercot community makes up approximately 0.06% of the number of people who visit just the Magic Kingdom yearly. What "we" think really isn't what "the majority" thinks, so those surveys may actually be leading some changes that we see as negative. Gotta keep that in perspective.

[Jared]

I just did a survey about my stay at Art of Animation where I let them have it as far as the wi-fi was concerned. I did not hold back, and the survey actually seemed overly concerned with problems I may have experienced.
Remember that Disney is in the process of spending $1billion for the Next Gen project, much of which involves upgrading this sort of infrastructure. Have you considered that somebody wanted you bash the Internet service at the resort? Somebody is looking to justify his proposal to spend a few million bucks on wireless improvements at that hotel.

:)

[Gator]

1. I think the restaurant quality is fine. We've had lots of great meals at Disney and I haven't noticed a change in that over the years. Now, I do hate the dining plan and the free dining plan just about pushes me over the edge. We purposely avoid the typical free dining periods because restaurants are just so overcrowded. I think service does suffer in those times because they just can't operate at full capacity that long without some consequence. As much as I hate dining during those times I can only imagine how horrible it must be to work in food service during those times.


Well said. You're a hybrid. See, I love the DDP and I love it when it's free. And I haven't seen a decline in quality of food. Of course, some folks think that Disney used to offer gourmet - that has never been accurate.

But you don't like the DDP and still believe that the food quality is good - that the DDP isn't responsible for some terrible decline in food taste and variety. You are the opinion of the day, as far as I'm concerned.

[Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Da Disney]

"Ungrateful," really?! We literally pay thousands of dollars for ever diminishing quality and we are ungrateful? Yeah Disney no matter what is a fun place and is great! And you are just lucky that you can go because I know some people who would love to go but can not because they dont have the financial needs. I think you are lucky to have the means to go to Disney.

[joonyer]

Yeah Disney no matter what is a fun place and is great! And you are just lucky that you can go because I know some people who would love to go but can not because they dont have the financial needs. I think you are lucky to have the means to go to Disney.

There's no question that those of us who can afford to go to any Disney parks are among the fortunate minority, given that so many people in the world could never even dream of being able to do. For some people it is luck, for others, the result of lots of hard work, and for some a combination of both. I am very grateful for all of the blessings in life that I have in this life, but Disney didn't give me anything. Disney simply provides me (and others) a place to spend some of those blessings. Hopefully, Disney will continue to provide a good return for all the money we spend on vacations there. When they don't, and we complain about it, that's not being ungrateful. If they were giving away vacations to everyone who showed up, and then we complained about bad show, poor food, crowd management, etc. then that would be "ungrateful".

[MrPeetrie]

Well said! I'm grateful that I can afford to go to Disney - but DISNEY is not doing me any favours! I'd assume THEY are "grateful" that customers are still coming and paying, since THEY are the ones benefitting from that arrangement!
Since I DO have money to go on vacation, Disney should be working extra hard to make sure I spend it there rather than in the many other places that want my business.

Well said.

[MNNHFLTX]

I've been reading this thread with interest.... I know it seems like all the negative remarks about Disney World are a new thing, that this didn't happen in "the good old days". But if you do a search and go back to old threads from 5 or so years ago you will see many of the same complaints being lodged back then--that customer service is slipping, the parks are being neglected, restaurant food quality is going downhill, that a vacation at Disney now requires over-planning, ticket/resort prices are exorbitant, that TPTB are driving the corporation into the ground. If the search engine could go back even further, you would see it even 12 years ago, when I first joined the INTERCOT staff (unfortunately, the search engine can only tap what's in the archives that far back!)

I am not negating some of the remarks that have been in this thread, just trying to offer some perspective. That the good old days of WDW were not always magical, it just seems that way in retrospect. I do think consumers have the right to vote with their dollars, so to speak, on what works for them and what doesn't. But I also think they need to temper their expectations with realism.

[Kaps]

Everything goes up and Disney is no exception. Although I feel that I still get more here for my money and family there still is a point where it wont be worth it.
Raising the admission when most of fantasyland was closed seemed to me like a big mistake but they did it anyway?
CM's also are not paid very well but Disney always gets paid. Maybe the higher ups should spread it around a little so the CM's feel more appreciated which will make a better experience for guests. They are the face of the company and for me make my vacation (or break it).
My family will still visit but I do agree that things are changing in the world and not for the better.

[Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Da Disney]

There's no question that those of us who can afford to go to any Disney parks are among the fortunate minority, given that so many people in the world could never even dream of being able to do. For some people it is luck, for others, the result of lots of hard work, and for some a combination of both. I am very grateful for all of the blessings in life that I have in this life, but Disney didn't give me anything. Disney simply provides me (and others) a place to spend some of those blessings. Hopefully, Disney will continue to provide a good return for all the money we spend on vacations there. When they don't, and we complain about it, that's not being ungrateful. If they were giving away vacations to everyone who showed up, and then we complained about bad show, poor food, crowd management, etc. then that would be "ungrateful".

I was just saying that if disney is where you choose to spend that money. Than Just be glad. I apolagize if anything Ive said has come of rude. It was not my intention.

[floogen6]

Having been many times (not annually) over the years and heading back this December I fully expect things to be a bit more worn than when they were the first time I went as a 10 year old back in 1982. But whether or not my vacation is a good one rests solely on how my youngests eyes light up when she walks through the turnstile for the very first time...To me the "magic" is seeing the kids come alive whether riding Space Mountain for the first time or having to wait in line for 90 minutes because they MUST HAVE that one signature that they have been waiting for...all the other stuff, to me at least, is minor. So I try to remember not how the parks looked on my first visit but rather the sheer exuberance I felt knowing I was in "the World" and try to make sure all of my five kids get that feeling...

[disneynarula]

Quote from Lawgirl
However, the type of people (sorry this is very generalizing and sterotyping, and of course I don't mean everybody) that I've lately encountered at the TS and signature dining places are not really people that you would normally expect to be dining with.



I find this a fascinating comment. Considering the high costs of a Disney vacation, I can't see anyone being able to even afford to go unless they are at LEAST a good solid middle class. I'd say that narrows the socio-economic demographic considerably. I'm having a hard time not feeling really offended.

I have to agree with Mom2Morgan here. I was a little insulted by this comment.

Having worked at a few of the WDW resorts in the past I can personally say that I was treated worse as a Castmember at the Grand Floridian than I was at some of the less expensive resorts. I have met rude people with a sensce of entitlement at all levels of WDW resort hotels.

Just because my family waits for a discount to go to Disney does not make us classless rubes bringing the whole atmosphere of disney down. For me, I feel like rack rate priced Disney vacation is not worth the money. I also feel that the deluxes are not worth the amount of money that it costs to stay in them.

The decline in show quality along with the increase in prices has made us choose other vacation destinations now. We only go to disney every three years or so now. It used to be that Disney set the bar for vacation destinations and now we are discovering that that just isn't true.

The price for the resort rooms is way out of control for what you would pay for a similar room outside of Disney. We stayed in four and five star hotels right in the heart of London for half the price of what most deluxes cost for the night. Plus we are giving our kids actual world experiences instead of the Epcot version. We are discovering more and more that we can go on other trips for what is costs to go to Disney and enjoy ourselves just as much.

That being said... we are going to Disney in the fall to get a real American experience after living overseas for a while. We are looking forward to it. We got the free dining and are looking forward to some nice meals. Hopefully we won't bring the atmosphere down with our pure middle classness.

On another note... I was so impressed by Disneyland and the way they really brought the parks back to life. We went there last summer and were blown away! If we were not limited to an east coast trip this fall I would have picked Disneyland over Disneyworld. Whatever they are doing in California is really working.

[Aurora]

Having worked at a few of the WDW resorts in the past I can personally say that I was treated worse as a Castmember at the Grand Floridian than I was at some of the less expensive resorts. I have met rude people with a sensce of entitlement at all levels of WDW resort hotels.

That's because having class has nothing to do with how much money you have.

[disneynarula]

That's because having class has nothing to do with how much money you have.

My point exactly. I don't think it's room discounts and free dining that are bringing down the atmopshere in the parks.

[Mousemates]

That's because having class has nothing to do with how much money you have.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[joonyer]

I was just saying that if disney is where you choose to spend that money. Than Just be glad. I apolagize if anything Ive said has come of rude. It was not my intention.

No offense taken. No apology needed. I am grateful for all that I have. I just wish Disney acted a little more "grateful" towards it customers, rather than seemingly treating as if we will keep on spending our money there no matter how they treat us. Sometimes, that's the way they make me feel, anyway. As if we should somehow feel beholden to them, when it should be the other way around.

[Bass T-bone]

As the prices increase, everybody's expectation increases also. Where Disney is getting into trouble is that your money is not going as far as it used to. Disney is offering higher prices and giving us less services/choices...

[PlutoPlanet]

We go every year and have never had a bad vacation. No one bats 1.000 in the Major Leagues. We're going back next year too. When we're empty nesters, we'll try to the Food and Wine festival.

[A Big Kid]

As the prices increase, everybody's expectation increases also. Where Disney is getting into trouble is that your money is not going as far as it used to. Disney is offering higher prices and giving us less services/choices...

I'll agree with that and go one step farther. The price we pay is going up and the quality we get is going down.

[azcavalier]

So, I posted this almost ten years ago (I can't believe it's been that long), and in reading it, I asked if in 5-10 years we would be happy with the changes that they've made to Walt Disney World. I thought it would be worth discussing. And a LOT of changes have been made! While I miss some things (Streets of America, Backlot Tour, Great Movie Ride, Club Cool and Innoventions, some of the classic dark rides in the MK Fantastyland, etc), I like the changes. I like what has been added to the parks.

Not happy about losing benefits that were free (like how appetizers and gratuity used to be included in the DDP), and really hate FP+ and hope it does not come back. Also not happy about pricing in general, but consumers never are happy about price increases.

Also not happy with restaurants getting converted to Signature Restaurants, like Le Cellier and Be Our Guest. For the money, I don't think they're worth it. But that's a very subjective thing.

Thoughts?


Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a lot of negativity about the way things at WDW have been headed. It's even got me to be a bit snippy on here! SO, first off, I apologize to anyone whom i've been grumpy with, especially the moderators and QuadStriker.

But I wonder if it's really gotten worse, or if we tend to remember more fondly than it really was? My Grandma has been dead for 40 years, and all the time I was growing up my Mom complained that every year (according to my Dad) that Grandma's cooking was better and better. You could never top her biscuits, no matter what you did, even with the same recipe.

That said, here are some of the main topics that have gotten me thinking about it:

1. Restaurant quality has gone down - DDP to blame? Budget cuts?

2. Expansion changes (or not)- no Beastly Kingdom, Various refurbs whittled away to almost nothing (Space Mountain), new construction not up to par (Dumbo ride getting damaged, Yeti issues), buildings sitting empty, such as Wonders of Life Pavilion, the Imagination building being reduced to the Figment ride and the awful Michael Jackson movie.

3. Not fixing "the show" - various elements on multiple rides not functioning, and not getting fixed, such as COP, Splash Mountain, EE, the Great Movie Ride, Fantasmic, etc, etc.

4. Poor management decisions - from the Avatarland project announcement, to the Avatarland project suspension, to taking Splash Mountain off of nighttime EMH and adding the Country Bears and Tiki Room.

5. If it's broke, don't fix it. If it works, then let's change it! - New Fast Pass system, interactive queues instead of fixing the rides themselves.

6. Nickle & diming, price increases - charging for after hour parties, the dessert party, the possibility of a $200 add-on for an "interactive Magic Kingdom Game Experience" that is currently on the exit surveys, increase in DDP prices with less offerings, increase in overall park tickets.

7. The basic idea that management at TDO doesn't really care what the consumer wants, that they just want to justify their own decisions, whether they're wanted or not (i.e. the new costumes that CMs at the American Experience have to wear).

I'm not trying to be negative. I believe that all of us *love* WDW or we wouldn't be on here posting. And things have to change. AND no matter what decision that management makes, they can't please everyone.

So, is it really that bad now? Or are we just remembering the good ol' days, and maybe they weren't as good as we think they were?

Lastly, will changes be coming, and we'll all be happy 5-10 years from now with everything that Disney has done to our Vacation Kingdom?

[Cinderelley]

So, I posted this almost ten years ago (I can't believe it's been that long), and in reading it, I asked if in 5-10 years we would be happy with the changes that they've made to Walt Disney World. I thought it would be worth discussing. And a LOT of changes have been made! While I miss some things (Streets of America, Backlot Tour, Great Movie Ride, Club Cool and Innoventions, some of the classic dark rides in the MK Fantastyland, etc), I like the changes. I like what has been added to the parks.

Not happy about losing benefits that were free (like how appetizers and gratuity used to be included in the DDP), and really hate FP+ and hope it does not come back. Also not happy about pricing in general, but consumers never are happy about price increases.

Also not happy with restaurants getting converted to Signature Restaurants, like Le Cellier and Be Our Guest. For the money, I don't think they're worth it. But that's a very subjective thing.

Thoughts?

Well, Covid aside, I feel like the quality has gone down significantly in the last 10 years. On our last trip, my kids were talking about how it wasn't worth the money any more. I do find it interesting to see how people who haven't been going for as long as we have are enchanted with it now, but those of us who have been before feel as if the quality has declined. DDIL1 loves going. DS1 doesn't want to go back. One example of this is Liberty Tree Tavern. The character interaction was amazing there in the past. My kids miss that. Their spouses can't miss what they have never seen.

They are slowly whittling away the things that make me want to go back, and most of the the stuff they have replaced it with doesn't really appeal to me. I do like the Fantasyland expansion. I don't like the stuff they have taken away from MNSSHP. I miss the Pirate & Princess parties. I definitely prefer Disneyland's Maxpass to Fastpass at WDW. I do enjoy the ease of the Magicbands though.

[paragon]

None of this is even remotely close to Walt's vision or his idea .
Read any one of these quotes. it tells a story. https://quotefancy.com/walt-disney-quotes

[baldburke]

Disney's firing of Gina Carano has me really bummed. Free speech should not be silenced. We have a trip planned for June that we're already all in on between tickets and airfare. However this latest stunt really has me thinking about selling our DVC points. I think ol' Walt would be turning over in his grave!

[John]

Here's my biggest issue... the mission.

When Walt set out to build this - I'm quite sure he didn't want the parks to turn into a place that the average American family can't afford to attend or one that seems to cater increasingly to the most wealthy of clients.

Look, I get it - it's a for profit company. They should want to make a buck - but as part of the founding principles of Disneyland and in turn other Disney Parks is the cornerstone of being able to escape to a world of fantasy - that is clean and safe.

The reality is - the Disney vacation that I grew up knowing from the first time we went in 1974 bears no resemblance to where we are in 2021.

If you were to ask me what makes me most sad - it's just that. Not the tearing down of a ride, or the changing out of this or that. The thought that many won't get to experience the joy and magic that compelled me to return time after time and in adulthood - create this place... INTERCOT.


“The important thing is the family. If you can keep the family together — and that’s the backbone of our whole business, catering to families — that’s what we hope to do.”

“I don’t want the public to see the world they live in while they’re in the Park (Disneyland). I want to feel they’re in another world.”

“Disneyland is a work of love. We didn’t go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money.”

“But it all started from a daddy with two daughters wondering where he could take them where he could have a little fun with them, too.”

- Walt Disney

[azcavalier]

Disney's firing of Gina Carano has me really bummed. Free speech should not be silenced. We have a trip planned for June that we're already all in on between tickets and airfare. However this latest stunt really has me thinking about selling our DVC points. I think ol' Walt would be turning over in his grave!

I'm not looking to start an argument, and I'm a Gina Carano fan, but I don't equate this with silencing of free speech.

Our right to free speech is HIGHLY misunderstood. The Constitution simply protects us from the government's ability to censor our speech. Meaning that they cannot jail us for speaking out against the government.

What Gina did was that she was very vocal about political matters and ideals that Disney does not agree with. They have *every* right to let her go because they don't like the spotlight that her comments create as an employee of the company. If I was a fast food restaurant owner, and one of my front-line employees refused to stop wearing divisive or controversial shirts while working the front counter, I'd fire that person, too. That's not a cancelation or silencing of free speech. That's just consequences for your actions. If you work for a company and continue to say things that those who run the company disagree with, especially during this highly politically charged time, and the company thinks it could affect their image, then you're gonna get fired.

[baldburke]

I'm not looking to start an argument, and I'm a Gina Carano fan, but I don't equate this with silencing of free speech.

I agree that I don't want to get into an argument either. However, if you look at what Pedro Pascal, The Mandalorian himself, posted as compared to what Gina posted then is just comes across as a slight against one view vs. another. And unfortunately that seems to be the dangerous path we are headed down. Disney did it again over the weekend by firing Bachelor host Chris Harrison. Old Walt new a thing or two about freedom when he helped the war effort back in the 1940's.

[Cinderelley]

I'm not looking to start an argument, and I'm a Gina Carano fan, but I don't equate this with silencing of free speech.

Our right to free speech is HIGHLY misunderstood. The Constitution simply protects us from the government's ability to censor our speech. Meaning that they cannot jail us for speaking out against the government.

What Gina did was that she was very vocal about political matters and ideals that Disney does not agree with. They have *every* right to let her go because they don't like the spotlight that her comments create as an employee of the company. If I was a fast food restaurant owner, and one of my front-line employees refused to stop wearing divisive or controversial shirts while working the front counter, I'd fire that person, too. That's not a cancelation or silencing of free speech. That's just consequences for your actions. If you work for a company and continue to say things that those who run the company disagree with, especially during this highly politically charged time, and the company thinks it could affect their image, then you're gonna get fired.

But you said "while working". I believe she can say what she wants while she's not at work just like everyone else.
You are right about it being about things Disney does not agree with. Other people have said inflammatory things that aligned with Disney's beliefs and had no repercussions.
Personally, I think businesses should stay out of politics. Disney is an entertainment company. They should stay in their own lane.

[azcavalier]

Let me reiterate that I like Gina Carano, and I don't think that they should have fired her. She's great in that role, and she's not a bad person. That said...


I agree that I don't want to get into an argument either. However, if you look at what Pedro Pascal, The Mandalorian himself, posted as compared to what Gina posted then is just comes across as a slight against one view vs. another. And unfortunately that seems to be the dangerous path we are headed down. Disney did it again over the weekend by firing Bachelor host Chris Harrison. Old Walt new a thing or two about freedom when he helped the war effort back in the 1940's.

At what point does someone's "view" cross the line to being not acceptable? If Gina or Chris (and I don't know what Chris said) had said that in their view it was perfectly normal to cannibalize one's children, would we be OK with them continuing to work for Disney? Basically, we only seem to get in an uproar when we tend to agree with that person's view and they then get held accountable for it.

Gina and Chris are completely free to keep working. Their rights have not been violated, nor have their freedoms been curbed. They can continue to believe what they believe and say what they want to say without fear of prosecution. They just have to realize that it might close doors to their prospects going forward.

My son is really, really smart. He would do well at most universities. However, in high school, he chose to not work hard in really easy classes (photography/film, for example) and just didn't do some assignments. Took zeros on them. His GPA was average...because when you get three 100's and one 0, that's a 75. When the time came to apply for college, there were a lot that he was interested in, but his choices had closed those doors. Was his freedom to attend the college of his choice taken from him? Yes. BY HIM. He made those choices, and then he faced the consequences of those choices.


But you said "while working". I believe she can say what she wants while she's not at work just like everyone else.
You are right about it being about things Disney does not agree with. Other people have said inflammatory things that aligned with Disney's beliefs and had no repercussions.
Personally, I think businesses should stay out of politics. Disney is an entertainment company. They should stay in their own lane.

It's about optics more than it's about politics. Gina can vote however she wants, and she wouldn't have been fired for that. But when you're such a public figure, and you are really pushing against the majority in the field in which you work, that's a really risky thing to do.

Also, "being under contract" = "While working". Even if you're not actively filming you're still under contract. I know of college students attending exclusive universities who got expelled for stuff they did during summer break. Because even though you're not on campus, you're still a student of that university. Same thing applies here.

[baldburke]

It's about optics more than it's about politics. Gina can vote however she wants, and she wouldn't have been fired for that. But when you're such a public figure, and you are really pushing against the majority in the field in which you work, that's a really risky thing to do.

You hit the nail on the head with this! "Pushing against the majority in the field in which you work." Say what you want to say, so long as you don't disagree with me. AKA, cancel culture.

[azcavalier]

AKA, cancel culture.

Well, it remains to be seen if she'll actually get "canceled". If she never gets a job acting again (or even for a long time), then yes. If she's fired here, but gets another shot somewhere else, then it's not really the cancel culture.

There is a position coach in football who recently went from BYU to the University of Troy. He was then hired by Baylor in the offseason to become their Offensive Line coach. But then within a day, they pulled the offer. Apparently, when he was a late teen (18 or 19) he went to a party or something in blackface. It happened once, and pictures were taken. Those pictures surfaced, and that's why Baylor pulled the offer. To me, that's idiotic. He has apologized publicly, and acknowledged the stupidity of it, but also pointed out that he was a teenager, and now he's a man with a family and more life experience. If he doesn't get hired anywhere, then it's cancel culture at its finest.

Don't we believe in second chances? Atoning for mistakes? If someone says or does something stupid, shows remorse and growth, then they should be given another shot (within limits). I believe in accountability for your actions, but I also believe in second chances.

Now, in Gina Carano's case, even though I said that it's more about optics than politics, it really is about political differences. She didn't make some mistake (like putting on blackface) or break any laws or infringe on someone's rights (like sexually assaulting someone). Her outspokenness on unpopular political beliefs is what led to her ouster, because Disney felt it made them look bad. So, you could argue that it's more like discrimination than cancel culture. There will be no 2nd chance with her, because people don't generally apologize for political stances.

[Cinderelley]

Let me reiterate that I like Gina Carano, and I don't think that they should have fired her. She's great in that role, and she's not a bad person. That said...



At what point does someone's "view" cross the line to being not acceptable? If Gina or Chris (and I don't know what Chris said) had said that in their view it was perfectly normal to cannibalize one's children, would we be OK with them continuing to work for Disney? Basically, we only seem to get in an uproar when we tend to agree with that person's view and they then get held accountable for it.

Gina and Chris are completely free to keep working. Their rights have not been violated, nor have their freedoms been curbed. They can continue to believe what they believe and say what they want to say without fear of prosecution. They just have to realize that it might close doors to their prospects going forward.

My son is really, really smart. He would do well at most universities. However, in high school, he chose to not work hard in really easy classes (photography/film, for example) and just didn't do some assignments. Took zeros on them. His GPA was average...because when you get three 100's and one 0, that's a 75. When the time came to apply for college, there were a lot that he was interested in, but his choices had closed those doors. Was his freedom to attend the college of his choice taken from him? Yes. BY HIM. He made those choices, and then he faced the consequences of those choices.



It's about optics more than it's about politics. Gina can vote however she wants, and she wouldn't have been fired for that. But when you're such a public figure, and you are really pushing against the majority in the field in which you work, that's a really risky thing to do.

Also, "being under contract" = "While working". Even if you're not actively filming you're still under contract. I know of college students attending exclusive universities who got expelled for stuff they did during summer break. Because even though you're not on campus, you're still a student of that university. Same thing applies here.

Actually, I am pretty open with what anyone has to say other than talking about hurting others. I don't have to agree with them to take an interest in their point of view. There are some societies that find cannibalism acceptable. I would be curious to ask them why they think that.

I also don't think anyone's life should be tied to their work (or school). If she wasn't on the set, in costume, at a Disney sponsored event, etc, I think she can say whatever she would like (minus hurting others). I do think that things should be fair though. If she is going to get punished for making statements, others should be also. If they aren't going to be punished, she shouldn't be.

Everyone can have their own opinion. It doesn't make them bad or good, just different, and different is what makes the world go around.

[baldburke]

Now, in Gina Carano's case, even though I said that it's more about optics than politics, it really is about political differences. She didn't make some mistake (like putting on blackface) or break any laws or infringe on someone's rights (like sexually assaulting someone). Her outspokenness on unpopular political beliefs is what led to her ouster, because Disney felt it made them look bad. So, you could argue that it's more like discrimination than cancel culture. There will be no 2nd chance with her, because people don't generally apologize for political stances.


Unpopular in whose eyes? It's cancel culture. It's been brewing for some time now but just got a free pass nine months ago.

[azcavalier]

*WARNING* Long post. Read if you want to think and discuss.


Unpopular in whose eyes? It's cancel culture. It's been brewing for some time now but just got a free pass nine months ago.

Unpopular in the circles in which she tends to operate. I'm from RURAL Virginia, but I work on a college campus. TBH, I'm a moderate conservative. I'm not right-wing enough for my home county, but I'm too conservative for my college colleagues. But Gina Carano is more conservative than I am, and she's working in a much more liberal atmosphere. So, her views would be viewed as toxic in that environment.

If anyone is interested, here is a Facebook post by my brother. He is more liberal, but he's very level-headed (and doesn't think that the opposing political viewpoint is evil). After reading his post and thinking about it, I think he's dead on here.

"There is something of a moral panic happening around the idea of “cancel culture”, both on the political right generally and specifically among some members of the left intelligentsia. If you aren’t familiar with it, the basic idea is that “the left” has started to “cancel” (get fired, get kicked off social media, and/or generally gang up on) people who express non-politically correct opinions. Some recent purported examples of someone being “cancelled” include Gina Carano, who up until last week played a popular character on Disney’s “The Mandalorian”, and who was released from that show in the wake of posting comments on Instagram to the effect that hating someone for their political views is similar to the persecution of Jews during the Holocaust (for the record: this is not true). Carano has also posted opinions to the effect that mask wearing does not help stop the spread of COVID, and that there was significant voter fraud in the election (for the record: neither of these claims is true either). In the wake of these posts, the hashtag #FireGinaCarano trended on Instagram, and a few days after that Disney released her from the show.
Perhaps more seriously, there’s a popular set of ideas spreading rooted in “critical race theory” (CRT). CRT has a bunch of tenets, and a deep dive into it is well beyond the scope I want to address here, but in very broad terms it examines how society relates to ideas of race and power, and in particular, how our current society was built on top of white supremacy and works to perpetuate the power of white people. Which seems fair enough; almost nobody denies that race, real, constructed, or other, has an impact on society and vice versa, and examining that relationship seems like a valuable thing to do. And no one with even the slightest knowledge of American history will seriously dispute the pervasive effect of white supremacy on the shape of American society, at least up through the 1980s.
But the popular ideas spread in the name of CRT, perhaps most notoriously by Robin DiAngelo in her book "White Fragility" (which I’ll call WF, to distinguish it from the far more nuanced ideas contained in CRT) -- sometimes posit that a) much of what we generally accept as Enlightenment Values, including meritocracy, legal neutrality, and even logical reasoning and the scientific method, are in fact tools of white supremacy; and b) that there is no intellectually honest way to disagree with or even interrogate the tenets of WF. Anyone who questions is a racist. WT therefore acts like a red pill for those who accept its ideas.
What’s a liberal white Christian scientist to do in the face of these sorts of ideas?
I’m not sure I have a complete answer, because It Depends(tm). Liberals strive for tolerance of others and their life choices, but contrary to popular opinion on the right that does not imply that we have to tolerate intolerance or be hypocrites. Your right to your opinion stops when your fist meets my face, and all that. There really are some opinions out there that are beyond what any functioning society can accept; in the United States, for instance, these would include that Donald Trump should be President for life, that Hitler had it about right regarding Jews, that slavery was a net good for black people. You have a right to wear a swastika t-shirt and not be arrested -- but that’s all. You can’t wear that t-shirt to your job as a customer service rep in the morning and expect to still be employed at lunchtime.
On the other hand, any functioning Christian has to make significant allowances for humans being human. We believe in forgiveness, in redemption. We don’t believe in immediate punishment for every bad act. That was Satan’s plan, not God’s, which is why the world is the way it is.
All that being said, here’s what I’m absolutely certain of: mob violence against other human beings is uniformly bad. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the denomination formerly known as The Mormons), I can attest to this. There’s a reason we are a nation of laws and not of opinions, and for me that reason lies in the graves of the leaders of my church -- and a couple of ancestors -- who were murdered for their religious beliefs. And make no mistake, trending a hashtag to get someone fired because you disagree with what they say is a form of violence. So you will not see me forwarding any incitements to get a private citizen fired or deplatformed for their public statements unless those statements are themselves incitements to hatred or violence. And the problem with social media is exactly this: it actively enables and even encourages just this sort of mob violence.
I’m also absolutely certain that any system of beliefs that equates skepticism to heresy -- as WF does -- forfeits anything else true it might have to say. This is the proverbial teaspoon of dog poop in the chocolate pie.
Finally, I’m fairly well convinced that WF is the logical opposite of Nazism, in the sense that both WF and Nazism posit that race is the principal (only?) framework around which society can be understood; the two ideologies then take that conclusion in different directions. But I don’t accept the premise. I don’t wish to live in a world where the fundamental Nazi premise that the nature of society is a struggle between races is the correct one, and as a Christian I *can’t* accept that premise.
Racism is real, *structural* racism is also real, and liberal thinkers have some valuable things to say about both. White fragility (the concept, not the book), is also real. Of course it is; we're all humans, and we're all fragile. We need to think of ourselves as good people, almost no matter what we think or how we act, and becoming defensive when challenged with our own failures is one of the most natural instincts there is. But to address the reality (and real harms) of racism without causing further damage doesn't require becoming anti-racist, as DiAngelo defines it. But I think it may require becoming anti-fragile. We have to be open to claims of harm from others without becoming intellectually closed ourselves, on either side of the debate.
So what are we to do with Gina Carano? Well, there really is a struggle for the soul of the United States, and that struggle is important. Its outcome will have real effects on real people. And Carano is -- in my opinion -- on the wrong side of it. But getting her fired for her political views won’t help resolve it. There are better ways, more effective ways, ways that will cause less harm and fewer broken relationships. Loving your enemy is a better way of turning her into your friend than drop-kicking her."

[Cinderelley]

*WARNING* Long post. Read if you want to think and discuss.



Unpopular in the circles in which she tends to operate. I'm from RURAL Virginia, but I work on a college campus. TBH, I'm a moderate conservative. I'm not right-wing enough for my home county, but I'm too conservative for my college colleagues. But Gina Carano is more conservative than I am, and she's working in a much more liberal atmosphere. So, her views would be viewed as toxic in that environment.

If anyone is interested, here is a Facebook post by my brother. He is more liberal, but he's very level-headed (and doesn't think that the opposing political viewpoint is evil). After reading his post and thinking about it, I think he's dead on here.

"There is something of a moral panic happening around the idea of “cancel culture”, both on the political right generally and specifically among some members of the left intelligentsia. If you aren’t familiar with it, the basic idea is that “the left” has started to “cancel” (get fired, get kicked off social media, and/or generally gang up on) people who express non-politically correct opinions. Some recent purported examples of someone being “cancelled” include Gina Carano, who up until last week played a popular character on Disney’s “The Mandalorian”, and who was released from that show in the wake of posting comments on Instagram to the effect that hating someone for their political views is similar to the persecution of Jews during the Holocaust (for the record: this is not true). Carano has also posted opinions to the effect that mask wearing does not help stop the spread of COVID, and that there was significant voter fraud in the election (for the record: neither of these claims is true either). In the wake of these posts, the hashtag #FireGinaCarano trended on Instagram, and a few days after that Disney released her from the show.
Perhaps more seriously, there’s a popular set of ideas spreading rooted in “critical race theory” (CRT). CRT has a bunch of tenets, and a deep dive into it is well beyond the scope I want to address here, but in very broad terms it examines how society relates to ideas of race and power, and in particular, how our current society was built on top of white supremacy and works to perpetuate the power of white people. Which seems fair enough; almost nobody denies that race, real, constructed, or other, has an impact on society and vice versa, and examining that relationship seems like a valuable thing to do. And no one with even the slightest knowledge of American history will seriously dispute the pervasive effect of white supremacy on the shape of American society, at least up through the 1980s.
But the popular ideas spread in the name of CRT, perhaps most notoriously by Robin DiAngelo in her book "White Fragility" (which I’ll call WF, to distinguish it from the far more nuanced ideas contained in CRT) -- sometimes posit that a) much of what we generally accept as Enlightenment Values, including meritocracy, legal neutrality, and even logical reasoning and the scientific method, are in fact tools of white supremacy; and b) that there is no intellectually honest way to disagree with or even interrogate the tenets of WF. Anyone who questions is a racist. WT therefore acts like a red pill for those who accept its ideas.
What’s a liberal white Christian scientist to do in the face of these sorts of ideas?
I’m not sure I have a complete answer, because It Depends(tm). Liberals strive for tolerance of others and their life choices, but contrary to popular opinion on the right that does not imply that we have to tolerate intolerance or be hypocrites. Your right to your opinion stops when your fist meets my face, and all that. There really are some opinions out there that are beyond what any functioning society can accept; in the United States, for instance, these would include that Donald Trump should be President for life, that Hitler had it about right regarding Jews, that slavery was a net good for black people. You have a right to wear a swastika t-shirt and not be arrested -- but that’s all. You can’t wear that t-shirt to your job as a customer service rep in the morning and expect to still be employed at lunchtime.
On the other hand, any functioning Christian has to make significant allowances for humans being human. We believe in forgiveness, in redemption. We don’t believe in immediate punishment for every bad act. That was Satan’s plan, not God’s, which is why the world is the way it is.
All that being said, here’s what I’m absolutely certain of: mob violence against other human beings is uniformly bad. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the denomination formerly known as The Mormons), I can attest to this. There’s a reason we are a nation of laws and not of opinions, and for me that reason lies in the graves of the leaders of my church -- and a couple of ancestors -- who were murdered for their religious beliefs. And make no mistake, trending a hashtag to get someone fired because you disagree with what they say is a form of violence. So you will not see me forwarding any incitements to get a private citizen fired or deplatformed for their public statements unless those statements are themselves incitements to hatred or violence. And the problem with social media is exactly this: it actively enables and even encourages just this sort of mob violence.
I’m also absolutely certain that any system of beliefs that equates skepticism to heresy -- as WF does -- forfeits anything else true it might have to say. This is the proverbial teaspoon of dog poop in the chocolate pie.
Finally, I’m fairly well convinced that WF is the logical opposite of Nazism, in the sense that both WF and Nazism posit that race is the principal (only?) framework around which society can be understood; the two ideologies then take that conclusion in different directions. But I don’t accept the premise. I don’t wish to live in a world where the fundamental Nazi premise that the nature of society is a struggle between races is the correct one, and as a Christian I *can’t* accept that premise.
Racism is real, *structural* racism is also real, and liberal thinkers have some valuable things to say about both. White fragility (the concept, not the book), is also real. Of course it is; we're all humans, and we're all fragile. We need to think of ourselves as good people, almost no matter what we think or how we act, and becoming defensive when challenged with our own failures is one of the most natural instincts there is. But to address the reality (and real harms) of racism without causing further damage doesn't require becoming anti-racist, as DiAngelo defines it. But I think it may require becoming anti-fragile. We have to be open to claims of harm from others without becoming intellectually closed ourselves, on either side of the debate.
So what are we to do with Gina Carano? Well, there really is a struggle for the soul of the United States, and that struggle is important. Its outcome will have real effects on real people. And Carano is -- in my opinion -- on the wrong side of it. But getting her fired for her political views won’t help resolve it. There are better ways, more effective ways, ways that will cause less harm and fewer broken relationships. Loving your enemy is a better way of turning her into your friend than drop-kicking her."

It doesn't really matter what anyone says. No one changes their mind based on words. The only way you can change someone is by the way they see you live your life.

[baldburke]

It doesn't really matter what anyone says. No one changes their mind based on words. The only way you can change someone is by the way they see you live your life.

Amen! All I know is that big tech and the media are lying to us on a daily basis to drive their narrative. Why did people vote the way they did in the last election? For many it was probably based on what they saw on FB or TV. How many people are regretting their vote for Biden? Perhaps many. How many are regretting their vote for Trump? Perhaps few.

[azcavalier]

Amen! All I know is that big tech and the media are lying to us on a daily basis to drive their narrative. Why did people vote the way they did in the last election? For many it was probably based on what they saw on FB or TV. How many people are regretting their vote for Biden? Perhaps many. How many are regretting their vote for Trump? Perhaps few.

I have to point out the irony of you saying that people voted based on what they see on Social Media and TV, but then assume that a lot of people regret voting out President Trump and voting in President Biden, which information I'm assuming you got from your social media and TV watching habits.

I think you're correct to assume that most of those that voted for Trump do not regret it. His base is loyal. I do know some conservative voters who were disgusted with the way he handled the attack on the Capitol on Jan. 6th, and as such have said that they wished they had not supported him. On the flip-side, I have yet to meet a single person either in-person or online who voted for Biden and regret it. Of course, due to COVID restrictions, I'm not exactly out talking to a lot of people. Maybe they're just not as outspoken as the Trump supporters. And let's be clear, most people who voted for Biden were not *excited* about Biden. They were just tired of Trump and the daily drama. Even if you don't agree with Biden's politics, he's a return to "normal" politics. I don't think Biden is going to do anything amazing or incredibly damaging as President. He just kind of...is.

I left Facebook last June because of how nasty it had gotten, and I don't watch Fox News, OAN, or any of the conservative news stations. In fact, I don't watch the news at all. I read the news, but I make a point of reading a spectrum of news sources so that I'm not stuck in an echo-chamber, only getting fed the "news" that I want to believe. My social media at this point is Twitter (only really following athletes and sports reporters so I can get breaking news on my teams) and Instagram. My Instagram feed is full of woodworking, landscape photography, LEGO's, and Disney. No politics there!

[PopPhan]

Okay....baldburke and azcavalier...INTERCOT is the LAST place to go political. Please refrain from going there. Thank you.

[azcavalier]

Okay....baldburke and azcavalier...INTERCOT is the LAST place to go political. Please refrain from going there. Thank you.

Will do.

[baldburke]

Okay....baldburke and azcavalier...INTERCOT is the LAST place to go political. Please refrain from going there. Thank you.

:blush:

I was waiting for that. I didn't think it would take that long. All in all, I think it was a good civil conversation. And that's all we need more of anyway. Thanks for the note!

[Cinderelley]

I have to point out the irony of you saying that people voted based on what they see on Social Media and TV, but then assume that a lot of people regret voting out President Trump and voting in President Biden, which information I'm assuming you got from your social media and TV watching habits.

I think you're correct to assume that most of those that voted for Trump do not regret it. His base is loyal. I do know some conservative voters who were disgusted with the way he handled the attack on the Capitol on Jan. 6th, and as such have said that they wished they had not supported him. On the flip-side, I have yet to meet a single person either in-person or online who voted for Biden and regret it. Of course, due to COVID restrictions, I'm not exactly out talking to a lot of people. Maybe they're just not as outspoken as the Trump supporters. And let's be clear, most people who voted for Biden were not *excited* about Biden. They were just tired of Trump and the daily drama. Even if you don't agree with Biden's politics, he's a return to "normal" politics. I don't think Biden is going to do anything amazing or incredibly damaging as President. He just kind of...is.

I left Facebook last June because of how nasty it had gotten, and I don't watch Fox News, OAN, or any of the conservative news stations. In fact, I don't watch the news at all. I read the news, but I make a point of reading a spectrum of news sources so that I'm not stuck in an echo-chamber, only getting fed the "news" that I want to believe. My social media at this point is Twitter (only really following athletes and sports reporters so I can get breaking news on my teams) and Instagram. My Instagram feed is full of woodworking, landscape photography, LEGO's, and Disney. No politics there!

Out of all of this, I just want to know - Why LEGOs? lol

[Bass T-bone]

I think it's interesting that we are talking about "Dark Days of DisneyWorld" as far back as 2012 (Original post)

[MrPeetrie]

No offense to you, but this is exactly why Disney is able to get away with a lot of the things they are doing, people just pay the fee and go.

Until Disney sees a real decline in hotel bookings and ticket purchases, then no change will be made....

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. It saddens me deeply, but my love for WDW has dwindled so much lately. For many years, my sleep routine was to imagine an impending Disney trip with as much detail as possible from wake up to breakfast to rides. Normally, I’d make it to the second day then fall asleep. I haven’t thought about a trip in several years.

My DS11 and I took advantage of low air fare and went last October. We had the worst experience. I understand they took a financial beating and need to replenish, but we really felt financially abused by the entire setup. My son kept asking, “How much longer before we can go home?”

But the company in general seems to be getting away from customer service orientation to bottom-line oriented. Read “Keys to the Kingdom: Seven Secrets to Disney’s Success” and compare that model to today’s model. Big difference. Big let down. Not sure when/if I go back.

[baldburke]

�� This thread is back! We had neighbors just go to FL on their first trip with children over Easter break. Despite all the changes over the years (quality, service, perceived value, etc.) they said that Disney was really head and shoulders above Universal...at least based on their perception in these waning days of the COVID pandemic. Maybe its all relative? What we remember from our youth or younger days as compared to what our children see now then looking decades out, will they look back and think those were the good 'ol days when a turkey leg was $10 and you could still get an autograph and pic with a character if you didn't mind waiting upwards of an hour to do so. We've debated getting rid of our DVC points as of late. Although we still think its a fun occasional get away and with grandkids on the horizon sooner than later we think there might be new reasons to visit down the road.

[Cinderelley]

�� This thread is back! We had neighbors just go to FL on their first trip with children over Easter break. Despite all the changes over the years (quality, service, perceived value, etc.) they said that Disney was really head and shoulders above Universal...at least based on their perception in these waning days of the COVID pandemic. Maybe its all relative? What we remember from our youth or younger days as compared to what our children see now then looking decades out, will they look back and think those were the good 'ol days when a turkey leg was $10 and you could still get an autograph and pic with a character if you didn't mind waiting upwards of an hour to do so. We've debated getting rid of our DVC points as of late. Although we still think its a fun occasional get away and with grandkids on the horizon sooner than later we think there might be new reasons to visit down the road.

While I can agree with your point to some extent, I think there is more to it. My kids (who are adults now) have noticed the decline since their childhood. I was never really impressed with Universal (I've only been to the one in California), so it doesn't take much to be better than Universal. I hold Disney up to the standard of what it used to be.
With that being said, I've noticed that my kids still talk about when they will take their kids to Disney. My granddaughter has been to Disneyland and Disney World, and she is only 5. My grandson hasn't been yet due to Covid. He is overdue for his first trip at the ripe old age of 1 year old. :P Even DS2, who is a homebody and swore off Disney, talks about taking his kid. The baby isn't even born yet - due 6/3/21. There really is something special about going to Disney with children.

[Wayne]

We will be making our first trip since 2004 when we visit staying offsite in late September of 2021 for a 4 night visit. We've planned for a 3 day park hopper ticket with park reservations for EPCOT, Magic Kingdom , and Studios. Our goal is a for a time where we feel that we have received value for our dollars spent. In this time of COVID, that is an uncertainty. We'll see in September.

[azcavalier]

Maybe its all relative? What we remember from our youth or younger days as compared to what our children see now then looking decades out, will they look back and think those were the good 'ol days when a turkey leg was $10 and you could still get an autograph and pic with a character if you didn't mind waiting upwards of an hour to do so.

I think it's this, totally. It's like the phrase, "Either you die the hero, or you live long enough to become the villain." For those who have spent a lot of time at Walt Disney World, it has gone from being magical to you noticing every change, every flaw, every managerial misstep. And if that's all you focus on, then that's all you'll see. It takes effort to notice the magic of the place, especially in the midst of changes that you don't particularly like.

[Beatrice Callan]

�� This thread is back! We had neighbors just go to FL on their first trip with children over Easter break. Despite all the changes over the years (quality, service, perceived value, etc.) they said that Disney was really head and shoulders above Universal...at least based on their perception in these waning days of the COVID pandemic. Maybe its all relative? What we remember from our youth or younger days as compared to what our children see now then looking decades out, will they look back and think those were the good 'ol days when a turkey leg was $10 and you could still get an autograph and pic with a character if you didn't mind waiting upwards of an hour to do so. We've debated getting rid of our DVC points as of late. Although we still think its a fun occasional get away and with grandkids on the horizon sooner than later we think there might be new reasons to visit down the road.

You are absolutely right. 20 years later, our grown-up children, looking at the world around them, will say that in their childhood everything was nicer, more understandable.

[baldburke]

You are absolutely right. 20 years later, our grown-up children, looking at the world around them, will say that in their childhood everything was nicer, more understandable.

Welcome to Intercot!

[MrPeetrie]

I think there is a complete shift in the business model. If you read “Keys to the Kingdom,“ the Disney rep, while speaking to a group of trainees, asks the question, “Who is Disney‘s competition?” The answers vary but are all in the entertainment industry. Then he asks, “What about department stores? What about landscapers?” He asks the trainees if they’ve ever called those customer service departments. “Did you ever call Disney‘s customer service? Did you compare the two? The truth is: our competition is anyone with whom we are compared.“

Have you called Disney’s Customer Service lately? You may be on hold for two hours! They are in bottom-line mode at the moment. Anything they think you perceive you are getting for free, they are cutting out! And these “freebies” are not free. They are all factored that into the ticket price.

[Cinderelley]

I think there is a complete shift in the business model. If you read “Keys to the Kingdom,“ the Disney rep, while speaking to a group of trainees, asks the question, “Who is Disney‘s competition?” The answers vary but are all in the entertainment industry. Then he asks, “What about department stores? What about landscapers?” He asks the trainees if they’ve ever called those customer service departments. “Did you ever call Disney‘s customer service? Did you compare the two? The truth is: our competition is anyone with whom we are compared.“

Have you called Disney’s Customer Service lately? You may be on hold for two hours! They are in bottom-line mode at the moment. Anything they think you perceive you are getting for free, they are cutting out! And these “freebies” are not free. They are all factored that into the ticket price.

Well, I might be willing to hold that long for other companies if they played Disney music, etc while I was on hold :P

[azcavalier]

I think there is a complete shift in the business model. If you read “Keys to the Kingdom,“ the Disney rep, while speaking to a group of trainees, asks the question, “Who is Disney‘s competition?” The answers vary but are all in the entertainment industry. Then he asks, “What about department stores? What about landscapers?” He asks the trainees if they’ve ever called those customer service departments. “Did you ever call Disney‘s customer service? Did you compare the two? The truth is: our competition is anyone with whom we are compared.“

Have you called Disney’s Customer Service lately? You may be on hold for two hours! They are in bottom-line mode at the moment. Anything they think you perceive you are getting for free, they are cutting out! And these “freebies” are not free. They are all factored that into the ticket price.

Fair enough, but doesn't *everyone* do that? What company gives you stuff for free that isn't factored in to the ticket price? Why just complain about Disney doing what is an industry standard business practice? Were these things not factored in to the price when they started doing them and we thought that they were "free"?

[Cinderelley]

Fair enough, but doesn't *everyone* do that? What company gives you stuff for free that isn't factored in to the ticket price? Why just complain about Disney doing what is an industry standard business practice? Were these things not factored in to the price when they started doing them and we thought that they were "free"?

I think he was focusing more on the "cutting them out" while leaving the ticket prices the same. I haven't had any other companies cut stuff out.

[MrPeetrie]

Fair enough, but doesn't *everyone* do that? What company gives you stuff for free that isn't factored in to the ticket price? Why just complain about Disney doing what is an industry standard business practice? Were these things not factored in to the price when they started doing them and we thought that they were "free"?

But they aren’t giving the customers the “free stuff” right now, but the price has stayed the same. Essentially, you are paying for the “free stuff,” but you aren’t receiving it.

[CaptSmee]

I think that they are trying to set themselves up for the future. What if tourism were to ever dip again? What if they continue to lose market share to its competition? I think they are being mindful and are hitting the pause and reset buttons to reavaluate operations at all levels. Disney will streamline and bounce back, they always were the industry standard and I’m sure that they will be again. They just announced they recalled 80% of their workforce which is big news.

[AmericanDreams]

I, for one, would not mind if Disney lost some market share to other theme parks. Anything to lessen the crowds!