A view to Next Gen Queueing?

[disneykidsince1970]

I've been meaning to post this since mid July...

I was in London this summer for work and decided to bring the kids/mom to enjoy the surroundings while I worked. On the weekend, we brought the kiddos (age 5 and 7) to LegoLand where they had a queue system (their version of Fast Pass) that I thought was pretty cool! I hope I am not repeating what someone else has shared...

At two different locations in the park, you can rent a small handheld "machine" called a Q-bot. It is the size of a medium pedometer and comes with a big clip so you can easily attach it to something. There is a base PER PERSON price to rent it but you only need 1 for the whole group (up to 6 people on a unit). For all levels, you can only virtually stand in line for 1 ride at at time and you cannot virtually queue for the next ride until the ride operator scans your Q-Bot from the previous ride. How it works...

the QBot holds current wait times for the top 22 premium rides (excluding the 2 latest and most popular rides). You click the ride you want to wait in line for and it responds with the time you should go to the ride and get on. It doesn't save you actual wait time - the return time reflects the expected time you would get on based on the actual queue. It simply allows you to do (buy?) other things while you are virtually waiting in line. So, it is similar to FastPass but you don't have to go to the ride itself to get the return time. This base version is £15pp or about $24.

The next level saves you 75% of the wait time. You click the ride you want and it gives you a "show up time" that reflects this 75% shorter wait time. This version (called Express) is £40pp or about $63.

The best level saves you 95% (!) of the wait time. You click the ride and basically walk right on. This level also adds the 2 premium and latest (most popular) rides. This version (called Ultimate) is £70pp or about $111).

You can pre-order your Q-Bot (all levels) on-line; they rent a limited number of units at each level each day.

We were there only 1 day, I didn't know the park well, didn't want to waste a lot of time, and was dying to try it and see how it worked so... we splurged for the Express level - saving us the 75% wait time. Let me tell you that it was AWESOME. As soon as a ride operator scanned the QBot, we clicked to get in line for the next ride we wanted - it gave us a time that closely matched how long it would take for us to do the ride we were on and walk to the next one.

As I've considered it, b/c they limit the number of units and the price is steep, they can make sure that the value of the splurge really exits. And... if you can somehow afford it, it makes ALL the difference! I kept thinking..wow, if I never had to stand in line for Dumbo!, for Space Mountain!, etc. And then... if I didn't have an ADR and was considering where to eat and could use my QBot to see what the wait time was for a walk up at a few targeted restaurants...well, that would be kinda cool! "Biergarten is a 30 min wait but Rose and Crown can seat us if we can be there in 5 min." I see the potential!! Of course, there will be downsides...people racing to make a seating in 5 min when it will really take them 10 min on a good day and 20 min on a high traffic day....and more downsides that I am not thinking of at the moment.

Morally speaking, I also struggle with offering this luxury only to people who can afford such a steep price - I might feel better if I knew that Disney gave out some for free each day to some deserving groups.

...just thought i would share the info..

[Mfarquar]

Thanks for the great first-hand explanation! It definitely helps understand how the process works. It does sound cool.

I like the point you make about the moral side of this option. It is so incredibly disappointing to me that Disney is going this route. For years, I have proudly told people that Disney isn't like the rest. Not Universal, not Six Flags, etc. If you can get to Disney, once you're there, you've made it. Everyone was equal for the most part. Sure, you may see a VIP guest once in a blue moon who paid for a private tour, but they are certainly the extreme minority. Yes, you could pay more for food at the table service restaurants if you wanted, but you could bring in your own food if you wanted - this was not inclusive of the rides. The rides were safe - you could wait in line or get a fastpass and you were all set.

Soon, the days of giggling in the FastPass line as you pass those in standby who say, "They paid for FastPass".

I guess Disney felt they should really live up to their expensive reputation.

It used to be a battle of the haves and have nots just to get to Disney. Now it will be a continual battle once you're there - with those who are able and willing can pay their way to the front of the lines winning. This pay option will presumably less costly than a VIP tour and be far more abundant...:(

[Aurora]

Six Flags has a version of this that is almost identical -- three-tiered, more expensive as you go, etc. They used to have a set price for up to four people on the same "bot," but now it's per person and is so much pricier that we haven't used it since.

There is no way, for the amount of money we pay for Disney tickets, that I would ever use this kind of pay system at Disney, so I guess we will either be waiting in the long lines or doing even more of what we're doing now -- not going as often. Ticket prices as they are now have really curtailed our visit frequency, and on our last trip, we only went to the parks for three days.

[MrPeetrie]

We used a Q-bot when we went to Six Flags (formerly Geagua Lake). We paid $64. When it worked correctly, it was very nice. However, and this may be due to the park being poorly run, it would change our return time based on the ride's performance. For one ride, we were informed to return in about 60 minutes. Five minutes later, it said we had 10 minutes to return. If you miss your return time, you're out. We left one line, ran across park, and got in other Q-bot line. Then waited 40 minutes.

For the most part, it worked well. Without it, we would have ridden almost nothing. With it, we rode all the big ticket rides. I just felt bad for those who didn't pay $64. They couldn't have ridden much.

[PopPhan]

So, would this be the next "package discount" for booking on-site stays?

Deluxe/DVC resorts would get the top-level QBot;
Moderates get the mid-level QBots;
Values get the 'base' model QBots?

Off-site visitors would pay based on the level of QBot requested.

Luckily, we we normally visit FP's are not necessary, so this would not be a big draw for us. I can count the number of times we used FP's, on all our trips since FP was introduced, on one hand and still have fingers left.

[Daisy'sMom]

I think this is a sad idea and I know we will probably rethink renewing our annual passes if they do this. :(

[Mousemates]

if this is actually how it will work at WDW... and if it is actually going to essentially be a hway for the wealthy to bypass those in the parks who can't afford it, I don't like it.

[EJS-Houston]

Thanks for the great first-hand explanation! It definitely helps understand how the process works. It does sound cool.

I like the point you make about the moral side of this option. It is so incredibly disappointing to me that Disney is going this route. For years, I have proudly told people that Disney isn't like the rest. Not Universal, not Six Flags, etc. If you can get to Disney, once you're there, you've made it. Everyone was equal for the most part. Sure, you may see a VIP guest once in a blue moon who paid for a private tour, but they are certainly the extreme minority. Yes, you could pay more for food at the table service restaurants if you wanted, but you could bring in your own food if you wanted - this was not inclusive of the rides. The rides were safe - you could wait in line or get a fastpass and you were all set.

Soon, the days of giggling in the FastPass line as you pass those in standby who say, "They paid for FastPass".

I guess Disney felt they should really live up to their expensive reputation.

It used to be a battle of the haves and have nots just to get to Disney. Now it will be a continual battle once you're there - with those who are able and willing can pay their way to the front of the lines winning. This pay option will presumably less costly than a VIP tour and be far more abundant...:(

Am I misunderstanding here? Are you saying that FastPass is now a paid feature?

[disneykidsince1970]

no - dont think anyone was saying that... they were saying that IF Disney went a similar route to what I describe at LegoLand, free FastPasses MIGHT go away...

[Mendelson]

I would hate to see this become a fee-based system, but really, to me (and I'm assuming other park-goers), standing in long attraction lines is the least-desirable part of my WDW trip and something I'd (somewhat) gladly pay to avoid. I could see it becoming a must-purchase for us, if it were in full swing and widely used.

I would likely, however, substitute that cost in for one that would be dropped. So WDW would get one fewer expensive meal from us, or even perhaps one fewer park day. After all, I'd get to experience more of the parks with this, and perhaps not need as much time in them.

[roma1625]

Are those prices per person? That's just outrageously expensive, in my opinion.

What I don't like about paid fastpass systems is that it gives them an incentive to deliberately make the lines longer. The longer the lines, the more FP's they can sell, right?

[disneykidsince1970]

Are those prices per person? That's just outrageously expensive, in my opinion.

What I don't like about paid fastpass systems is that it gives them an incentive to deliberately make the lines longer. The longer the lines, the more FP's they can sell, right?

Don't think so. There is a break-even point. They have to make it expensive enough specifically so that NOT everyone would do it and the people that DO do it are able to get the value (if too many people signed up for it, it would be impossible to guarantee walk-ons).


I would hate to see this become a fee-based system, but really, to me (and I'm assuming other park-goers), standing in long attraction lines is the least-desirable part of my WDW trip and something I'd (somewhat) gladly pay to avoid. I could see it becoming a must-purchase for us, if it were in full swing and widely used.

I would likely, however, substitute that cost in for one that would be dropped. So WDW would get one fewer expensive meal from us, or even perhaps one fewer park day. After all, I'd get to experience more of the parks with this, and perhaps not need as much time in them.

I agree. The idea of NOT standing in line...heaven! and..it would make my husband much more likely to join with a good attitude. We would sacrifice other spend - perhaps less nights or less "Extras" (agreeing with a view Ian made on a podcast which is that most people have a total budget to spend and simply divy up how they do it...).

I confess that I would probably do this...but would feel guilty about it unless Disney was giving away some everyday for free b/c I, too, like the idea that Disney is for everyone.

[Mendelson]

Part of me says that it's just another vacation cost that some people can afford and some can't. Some can afford dinner at V&A's and to stay at the GF and to attend every ticketed event and buy tons of souvenirs...and some can't. Some buy worse food and not-as-nice accommodations and one souvenir just to be able to visit WDW.

I think people can accept that, BUT there is something about standing in line that is ever so egalitarian...and that's why this particular thing rubs people the wrong way.

[disneykidsince1970]

BUT there is something about standing in line that is ever so egalitarian...and that's why this particular thing rubs people the wrong way.

you know, I agree. When I was in London at LegoLand, I was thinking, "wonder why Disney hasn't done this already?" The technology surely isn't that complicated. Your point is the conclusion I came to. My sense is that the Brits are much more comfy with the class system whereas in America, this view just doesn't fly.

[joonyer]

The "class system/egalitarianism" argument really has no merit whatsoever when talking about using any "reduced wait" or "express lane" queue systems at WDW, or any other theme parks for that matter. Only people who can afford the price of admission can get into the parks in the first place. For everyone of us who can afford a Disney trip, even once in a lifetime, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of people who can never even dream of getting through the gates in the first place. For us guests (myself included) in the parks to get hung up over whether the Fastpass system is really fair by being "free", and that it somehow makes everyone equal, is really being disingenuous. Having to pay for Fastpass privileges would be no different than paying for park admission in the first place. Those of us who can afford to buy a park admission ticket are already among the privileged few. The real world is not an "equal" place, and neither is Disney World.

[Mendelson]

But, joonyer, I think there is something particular about the aspect of waiting in line that reflects notions of equality.

People can accept differences in income and differences in what respective people can afford, but being able to buy your way out of a line is somehow a different notion to us, as a society.

[EJS-Houston]

The "class system/egalitarianism" argument really has no merit whatsoever when talking about using any "reduced wait" or "express lane" queue systems at WDW, or any other theme parks for that matter. Only people who can afford the price of admission can get into the parks in the first place. For everyone of us who can afford a Disney trip, even once in a lifetime, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of people who can never even dream of getting through the gates in the first place. For us guests (myself included) in the parks to get hung up over whether the Fastpass system is really fair by being "free", and that it somehow makes everyone equal, is really being disingenuous. Having to pay for Fastpass privileges would be no different than paying for park admission in the first place. Those of us who can afford to buy a park admission ticket are already among the privileged few. The real world is not an "equal" place, and neither is Disney World.

Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree; it's not at all disingenous and it is merited to maintain a free FastPass system so as not to discriminate against folks (and discourage them from coming) who save up for their DisneyWorld vacation, stay in Value hotels because they simply can't afford The Grand Floridian, and eat at counter-service restaurants and make other sacrifices to save, in order to be able to afford their park passes for themselves and their families. It would be a slap in the face to such folks to monetize the FastPass system potentially out of reach.

[roma1625]

Don't think so. There is a break-even point. They have to make it expensive enough specifically so that NOT everyone would do it and the people that DO do it are able to get the value (if too many people signed up for it, it would be impossible to guarantee walk-ons).
They already adjust the capacity of rides (by reducing the amount of vehicles in use, etc.) based on crowd levels, so what's to stop them from doing it even more in order to optimize their profits from paid FP's? Not sure why they would need to guarantee walk-ons. In fact, the financial incentive would be there for them to go towards a system whereby eventually everybody pays extra to guarantee a spot on the rides. I don't think that they'll ever reach that point, but I can see it becoming more and more difficult to do what you want to do without buying some sort of FP.

[Quadstriker]

It's strange to me that this one idea causes so much uproar, when a vacation is a direct correlation between spending money to get perks.

Better food, better accommodations, better souvenirs, better travel, admission to jellyrolls, a nicer glass of wine, an extra churro, the list goes on. Spend money. Acquire fun.

But spending money to wait in line 15 minutes less? WHOA NOT ON OUR WATCH! It's interesting that this idea of "The line" being a standard of society and having ways to circumvent it being evil is interesting.

I get that people like the idea of everyone being equal in the eyes of the line gods, but charging for a fastpass service isn't some morally devious idea. Personally I don't see myself using it for Disney, but it's not going to affect my desire to visit the parks.

[roma1625]

I don't think it's evil, just concerned that it's going to drive up the cost of a Disney vacation.

[joonyer]

Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree; it's not at all disingenous and it is merited to maintain a free FastPass system so as not to discriminate against folks (and discourage them from coming) who save up for their DisneyWorld vacation, stay in Value hotels because they simply can't afford The Grand Floridian, and eat at counter-service restaurants and make other sacrifices to save, in order to be able to afford their park passes for themselves and their families. It would be a slap in the face to such folks to monetize the FastPass system potentially out of reach.

To that argument, I still have to come back to: "What about all the people who can't afford to get into the parks in the first place?" For most people the price of park passes "monetizes" a WDW vacation out of reach. Is is not a slap in their face simply because they are not there to be able to watch us enjoy the parks? Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. I just don't understand where the idea of once inside a theme park everybody is entitled to be treated equally when it comes to waiting in line or that it is discriminatory to charge for shorter wait times is coming from. If that's discrimination, then so is park admission. I get that everyone likes being treated the same as others, but theme park goers really don't have much room to talk in that regard when we are compared to the public at large. I wish I could go to WDW more than once every few years, but I don't think it's unfair that others can afford to go every year or even several times every year. I'm just grateful that I can go once in a while. If I couldn't afford a Fastpass, I'd be no less grateful to be there.

Don't get me wrong; I like it that Disney is one of the last theme park companies to "monetize" shorter wait times for attractions, but I just can't see that doing so would somehow be treating people inequitably. Kinda like the guy driving a Mercedes complaining that it's unfair that he can't afford the cost of a Rolls-Royce. Class envy will be the undoing of America.

[disneykidsince1970]

For most people the price of park passes "monetizes" a WDW vacation out of reach. Is is not a slap in their face simply because they are not there to be able to watch us enjoy the parks? Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. I just don't understand where the idea of once inside a theme park everybody is entitled to be treated equally when it comes to waiting in line or that it is discriminatory to charge for shorter wait times is coming from. If that's discrimination, then so is park admission. I get that everyone likes being treated the same as others, but theme park goers really don't have much room to talk in that regard when we are compared to the public at large. I wish I could go to WDW more than once every few years, but I don't think it's unfair that others can afford to go every year or even several times every year. I'm just grateful that I can go once in a while. If I couldn't afford a Fastpass, I'd be no less grateful to be there.


I don't think it is discrimination (!!) ...but rather what one of your first statements hilited... guilt (perhaps from those that could afford it) and envy (from those that couldn't)? I am sure there is some psychology paradigm that could explain what we are talking about.

I would be lying if I said I didn't feel something uncomfortable when I walked my two kids right by all the people that had been standing in line for an hour and had the gates opened right up for us! Yes- I work hard for my money and if I choose to buy the option to not wait in line, then I can choose to spend my money that way (yea AMERICA!) but... I felt guilty about it. My issue.

[Gator]

I honestly can't think of a reason that Disney should ditch the Fastpass system. Other than the money, of course. Fastpass levels the playing field - no matter what your income is or where you stayed, you get the same chance at a fastpass as everyone else.

[EJS-Houston]

To that argument, I still have to come back to: "What about all the people who can't afford to get into the parks in the first place?" For most people the price of park passes "monetizes" a WDW vacation out of reach. Is is not a slap in their face simply because they are not there to be able to watch us enjoy the parks? Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. I just don't understand where the idea of once inside a theme park everybody is entitled to be treated equally when it comes to waiting in line or that it is discriminatory to charge for shorter wait times is coming from. If that's discrimination, then so is park admission. I get that everyone likes being treated the same as others, but theme park goers really don't have much room to talk in that regard when we are compared to the public at large. I wish I could go to WDW more than once every few years, but I don't think it's unfair that others can afford to go every year or even several times every year. I'm just grateful that I can go once in a while. If I couldn't afford a Fastpass, I'd be no less grateful to be there.

Don't get me wrong; I like it that Disney is one of the last theme park companies to "monetize" shorter wait times for attractions, but I just can't see that doing so would somehow be treating people inequitably. Kinda like the guy driving a Mercedes complaining that it's unfair that he can't afford the cost of a Rolls-Royce. Class envy will be the undoing of America.

I'm not looking at it from a "fairness" point-of-view, so much as a PR point-of-view for Disney. If folks that scrimp and save in order to go to DisneyWorld perceive that they're being nickled-and-dimed to death like the airliens are doing, they might become inclined to go less often, or not at all. For you, monetizing FastPass is not a deal-breaker. For me and for others, it might be. And if enough people feel that way, especially people with families where 1 or 2 people are paying for 4-5-6-or more, it may become increasingly difficult for Disney to get enough people through the turnstiles to make it worthwhile.

[joonyer]

Well, I agree that charging for shorter wait time privileges may result in fewer people being willing to spend money for that purpose. Disney will have to consider the impact on attendance that it might have, IF they decide to do it. But I'd bet that charging more and more for admission to the parks in the first place, which they have been consistently doing for several years would have a much more dramatic effect on attendance than charging for some sort of Fastpass. So far, the increasing cost of park passes hasn't seemed to have any negative impact on attendance. I don't think many people would suddenly decide not to go to WDW, if they could afford the rest of the vacation, just because it might cost even more for the front of the line access. I love the free Fastpass, and I hope Disney keeps it free, whatever else they do with the system, but I can't really blame them if they start charging for premium access. They are already late to the game on this one.

[Cinderelley]

Isn't this what Universal already does? It doesn't seem to be hurting their attendance any.

[VWL Mom]

Isn't this what Universal already does? It doesn't seem to be hurting their attendance any.

If you stay on site it's free. the cost of the express pass last week (for those staying off site) was $44.95 per person and it's good only on certain rides.

[disneykidsince1970]

wow - I didn't realize there were other US parks already doing this...guess Disney is a bit late on this one - interestingly. I wonder if that means when something does happen (I am assuming that it will as one of the podcasts discussed the "next gen" topic at length) that it will be quite different?

hhmm...

[Mfarquar]

The entire purpose of the parks is to RIDE THE RIDES. The majority of people do not come for the food. They do not come for the souvenir shopping. Walt Disney created the parks to be an experience through rides and attractions. This would unilaterally change accessibility of the rides. This is not class warfare, this is a fundamental change in which the company does business in the parks and regards its customers in an effort to increase the cost for those who can only go during busy times (i.e., those people with children - and let's face it - you wouldn't buy a Qbot for only a few people in your party in that case).

IF Disney starts a line "experience" depending on how much you pay for your hotel or how much you shell out per person per day for a Qbot, the experience will not be the same for everyone as it has mainly been in the past for the majority of guests.

These are not small hotels that are few in number. When you add entire resorts of people who get to cut in line because they're paying extra, you then have the potential to end up with what some of the posters said about Six Flags - It may be impossible to get on many rides without one. It is then a situation where you pretty much NEED the enhanced, costly feature.

If they do this tiered system, they may think that people may not really notice the difference because all the Qbots look the same. However, I fear that a situation such as this could result in Disney underestimating its guests (going back to some of the very poor value packages of the 90s). Commons sense and boards such as these I'm sure, will make it clear about the differences.

I never felt Disney nickle and dimed me despite what "non-Disney" people may have said. I hate to think that this may be changing.

[Mfarquar]

On a more consumer-based note: I do not like the idea of needing to stay at one of Disney's Deluxe resorts in order to not wait in line IF this is the tier system Disney devises as rumors indicate.

As an informed consumer, it is sometimes hard for me to want to spend the rates at these hotels. While the rack rate is comparable to the Ritz Carlton, Four Seasons and other 4 and 5 star hotels, the size of the room and the amenities are simply not. Therefore, with at least 2 non-Disney trips on our schedule each year, a deluxe resort is not always what we're looking for at Disney because of this reason and the enormous amount of time we spend in the parks.

As a consumer, I do not like the idea of my hotel choices being limited if I don't want to stand in line.

[Mendelson]

Kinda like the guy driving a Mercedes complaining that it's unfair that he can't afford the cost of a Rolls-Royce. Class envy will be the undoing of America.

Actually, it's like the guy driving the Mercedes pulling into a gas station that he already thinks is too expensive and waiting in line, only to see five Rolls-Royces pull in after him but get ushered around him to the front of the line by an attendant, because they pay to be in a brand loyalty program. :mickey:

I love that Disney seems to be last hold-out of parks offering this for free. We're looking into a trip to Sesame Place near Philadelphia and even they have a pay-for-the-front-of-the-line thing. I think Disney was the first to roll the concept out but yet the last to offer it for free.

[TheVBs]

I have to say that, while we don't use it often, we think the FP system works great the way it is. It's tough to decide how I feel about any potential changes when all we can do is speculate.

I think the bottom line here is actually "value" instead of "fairness". If a system goes into place like the ones described above, it's not really about what seems fair or equal, but more about whether it seems to be a good value to each guest. If getting onto popular rides turned into a nightmare unless we parted with more money, then we as a family would have to decide if that lessened the value of a Disney vacation for us. If it does, then we need to decide if we want to go elsewhere. If it doesn't, we continue to go.

[mdricks]

I’ve thought about this quite a bit today and I think I know why this is bugging me. I understand the pure money arguments on both sides but I think this transcends profit motive. While ethics and morals are appropriate discussion points even that doesn’t bother me overmuch given this is a purely consumer product.

For my part a decision to economically stratify the park experience displays a radical shift in brand philosophy.

An example; on another topic string on this board a side issue of alcohol in MK was raised. The responses were almost visceral. Most claimed in opposition that we would see roving drunkards, like at EPCOT, ruining the experience. I don’t think that is really what anyone thinks is going to happen if they sell wine with dinner. AK and DS do just fine with ubiquitous alcohol offerings. I think the fundamental problem runs deeper. To have alcohol at MK would interject the adult world and completely change the childlike wonder and magic that is the MK brand.

In that same way the inclusiveness and lack of barriers that WDW displays as a whole are at risk when economic discrepancies become apparent within the parks themselves. The fact that all the guests go back to differing price point hotels after they leave is irrelevant. When I stay at Pop I am not required to tour GF on my way to the park. If I want a hotdog for dinner I don’t have to sit outside V&A’s to eat it. When it comes to the core Disney experience, the parks, I am treated by Disney with the same philosophy exhibited in Carousel of Progress and Spaceship Earth.

Frankly this ability to offer a similar experience at huge variations in price point is one of the crown jewels of the WDW vacation experience. There is a strong element of suspension of disbelief involved in WDW park participation. In the same way that the “adult” world is left behind when entering MK, WDW as a whole strongly encourages us that our differences don’t define us, we are all the same inside, “It’s a Small World” etc etc.

I guess, in short, I find it more than a little hypocritical. My 2c for what it’s worth.

[Mendelson]

Very nicely stated, mdricks.

[Mfarquar]

I’ve thought about this quite a bit today and I think I know why this is bugging me. I understand the pure money arguments on both sides but I think this transcends profit motive. While ethics and morals are appropriate discussion points even that doesn’t bother me overmuch given this is a purely consumer product.

For my part a decision to economically stratify the park experience displays a radical shift in brand philosophy.

An example; on another topic string on this board a side issue of alcohol in MK was raised. The responses were almost visceral. Most claimed in opposition that we would see roving drunkards, like at EPCOT, ruining the experience. I don’t think that is really what anyone thinks is going to happen if they sell wine with dinner. AK and DS do just fine with ubiquitous alcohol offerings. I think the fundamental problem runs deeper. To have alcohol at MK would interject the adult world and completely change the childlike wonder and magic that is the MK brand.

In that same way the inclusiveness and lack of barriers that WDW displays as a whole are at risk when economic discrepancies become apparent within the parks themselves. The fact that all the guests go back to differing price point hotels after they leave is irrelevant. When I stay at Pop I am not required to tour GF on my way to the park. If I want a hotdog for dinner I don’t have to sit outside V&A’s to eat it. When it comes to the core Disney experience, the parks, I am treated by Disney with the same philosophy exhibited in Carousel of Progress and Spaceship Earth.

Frankly this ability to offer a similar experience at huge variations in price point is one of the crown jewels of the WDW vacation experience. There is a strong element of suspension of disbelief involved in WDW park participation. In the same way that the “adult” world is left behind when entering MK, WDW as a whole strongly encourages us that our differences don’t define us, we are all the same inside, “It’s a Small World” etc etc.

I guess, in short, I find it more than a little hypocritical. My 2c for what it’s worth.


Perfectly said! I think you beautifully communicated what a lot of us were struggling to explain. Well done.

[mdricks]

Thanks!

:thumbsup:

[Mrs Bus Driver]

I have to say that, while we don't use it often, we think the FP system works great the way it is. It's tough to decide how I feel about any potential changes when all we can do is speculate.

I think the bottom line here is actually "value" instead of "fairness". If a system goes into place like the ones described above, it's not really about what seems fair or equal, but more about whether it seems to be a good value to each guest. If getting onto popular rides turned into a nightmare unless we parted with more money, then we as a family would have to decide if that lessened the value of a Disney vacation for us. If it does, then we need to decide if we want to go elsewhere. If it doesn't, we continue to go.

I have to agree disney's version of fastpass is a perk offered to all guests. Since disney tickets are I believe the most costly per day this sort of helped ease the pain (cost) and made it easy to choose a disney vacation. And while I like disney parks if they should start charging for it well some of us may take our vacation dollars else where. just my :twocents:

[EJS-Houston]

I’ve thought about this quite a bit today and I think I know why this is bugging me. I understand the pure money arguments on both sides but I think this transcends profit motive. While ethics and morals are appropriate discussion points even that doesn’t bother me overmuch given this is a purely consumer product.

For my part a decision to economically stratify the park experience displays a radical shift in brand philosophy.

An example; on another topic string on this board a side issue of alcohol in MK was raised. The responses were almost visceral. Most claimed in opposition that we would see roving drunkards, like at EPCOT, ruining the experience. I don’t think that is really what anyone thinks is going to happen if they sell wine with dinner. AK and DS do just fine with ubiquitous alcohol offerings. I think the fundamental problem runs deeper. To have alcohol at MK would interject the adult world and completely change the childlike wonder and magic that is the MK brand.

In that same way the inclusiveness and lack of barriers that WDW displays as a whole are at risk when economic discrepancies become apparent within the parks themselves. The fact that all the guests go back to differing price point hotels after they leave is irrelevant. When I stay at Pop I am not required to tour GF on my way to the park. If I want a hotdog for dinner I don’t have to sit outside V&A’s to eat it. When it comes to the core Disney experience, the parks, I am treated by Disney with the same philosophy exhibited in Carousel of Progress and Spaceship Earth.

Frankly this ability to offer a similar experience at huge variations in price point is one of the crown jewels of the WDW vacation experience. There is a strong element of suspension of disbelief involved in WDW park participation. In the same way that the “adult” world is left behind when entering MK, WDW as a whole strongly encourages us that our differences don’t define us, we are all the same inside, “It’s a Small World” etc etc.

I guess, in short, I find it more than a little hypocritical. My 2c for what it’s worth.

Beautifully put, Mdricks! Thanks for that!

[BigThunderFan]

My opinion on this: What would Walt Disney have done?

The whole reason we have Disney parks is because he wanted a better place for kids and adults to go have fun together. The magic of Disney is open to everyone inside those gates. Yes, you do have to pay to get inside, so this does rule out a vast number of people. However, once inside all guests should be treated equally. That's how Walt would have wanted it. He didn't build Disneyland so only the super wealthy can attend.

[Mousemates]

Beautifully put, Mdricks! Thanks for that!

:thumbsup:

[Aurora]

I’ve thought about this quite a bit today and I think I know why this is bugging me. I understand the pure money arguments on both sides but I think this transcends profit motive. While ethics and morals are appropriate discussion points even that doesn’t bother me overmuch given this is a purely consumer product.

For my part a decision to economically stratify the park experience displays a radical shift in brand philosophy.

An example; on another topic string on this board a side issue of alcohol in MK was raised. The responses were almost visceral. Most claimed in opposition that we would see roving drunkards, like at EPCOT, ruining the experience. I don’t think that is really what anyone thinks is going to happen if they sell wine with dinner. AK and DS do just fine with ubiquitous alcohol offerings. I think the fundamental problem runs deeper. To have alcohol at MK would interject the adult world and completely change the childlike wonder and magic that is the MK brand.

In that same way the inclusiveness and lack of barriers that WDW displays as a whole are at risk when economic discrepancies become apparent within the parks themselves. The fact that all the guests go back to differing price point hotels after they leave is irrelevant. When I stay at Pop I am not required to tour GF on my way to the park. If I want a hotdog for dinner I don’t have to sit outside V&A’s to eat it. When it comes to the core Disney experience, the parks, I am treated by Disney with the same philosophy exhibited in Carousel of Progress and Spaceship Earth.

Frankly this ability to offer a similar experience at huge variations in price point is one of the crown jewels of the WDW vacation experience. There is a strong element of suspension of disbelief involved in WDW park participation. In the same way that the “adult” world is left behind when entering MK, WDW as a whole strongly encourages us that our differences don’t define us, we are all the same inside, “It’s a Small World” etc etc.

I guess, in short, I find it more than a little hypocritical. My 2c for what it’s worth.

I tried to comment on this thread twice before and deleted my thoughts both times because I couldn't communicate my arguments in a convincing way. You did it very neatly. :thumbsup:

[Mfarquar]

Now if only Disney would read mdricks' post before making any hasty Qbot decisions! ;)