Having kids means making lifestyle changes. Yes or no?

[BrerGnat]

Okay, so I have a sister who had a baby last December (so, baby is just over a year old).

She, her DH, and the baby spent a night at the Grand Californian because they found a great AP rate. I had a text convo with her last night that sort of irked me, and I am wondering if my line of thought is just not in line with most people's.

So, the deal is, they apparently had dinner at Napa Rose last night. They took the baby with them.

Now, I have eaten at Napa Rose twice. I have two kids, who are 5 and 7. I wouldn't DREAM of taking them to eat there. It's a very sophisticated place, very adult atmosphere, and I know for sure my kids would not behave "appropriately" (mostly due to their Autism, but that's besides the point here). DH and I waited to eat there until we could do a getaway just the two of us, and my MIL stayed home with the kids. It was a very special "adult" occasion for us. I have eaten there twice and have never seen kids younger than about 9 or so in there. I would be floored if I was sat at a table that had a party including a baby anywhere near me.

This is not the first thing that she's done, though. When my nephew was about 6 months old, they took a weekend trip to a winery in Santa Barbara. They took the baby with them there too. Can you say inappropriate???

Now, I know there is this whole mentality, especially in the L.A. area of "don't change your lifestyle when you have kids", but this is ridiculous. Or, am I being ridiculous?

There are some things that are (or should be) "adults only." Wineries, for example, fit into this category. No one wants to be around babies and children when they are visiting a winery.

Similarly, there are some restaurants that I consider for adults and perhaps some VERY well behaved older children.

I'm all for letting children have life experiences, and be exposed to mature things, but there is a line, right? I think about the MAJORITY of the other guests in these kinds of situations, and I feel like it's selfish to expect other guests to put up with your baby just because that's what you decide to do.

Am I overreacting? I love my sister, but sometimes some things she does just make me hesitant to admit we're related. :rolleyes:

[JanetMegan]

I'm totally with you on this but I also don't have kids so I think that sort of tips me towards the whole "don't want kids around me" situation. I don't mind kids in general but especially if I am looking to have an "adult" type dinner or trip I'd be pretty upset to have a child there. Now possibly having an infant asleep or something would be ok, but you can't ever guarantee that? In general I think it is more widely accepted to have kids do everything and go everywhere these days. I know growing up Mom and Dad would have gotten a sitter-not that that even happened very often (maybe once a year for a special occasion.)

[Dulcee]

I think it depends on the kids and the parents.

My parents took us everywhere. We ate in some really amazing restaurants at the age of 4, 5,6 and an infant? That wasn't even a question. We went. By the time I was 6 I knew to order my steak medium rare and could plow through a plate of oysters in no time. My family never has believed in kids meals or kids tables. We were taught and expected to act respectfully in public and we did just that.

My sister has two kids now. Pretty much the same. They go everywhere. The oldest is one of the best behaved kids in the world. The youngest is an infant.

I don't see anything wrong with kids being in a high end restaurant if they know how to behave and if parents know to remove a screaming infant until they calm. Frankly I've eaten some places that my nephews were better behaved then the adults at the next table.

If for whatever reason one's children can't act in the appropriate manner leave them home. If they can, who am I to complain?

[BrerGnat]

I think my main issue with this is that they were at DISNEYLAND for crying out loud! There are SO MANY other options for places to eat that would have been just absolutely appropriate to bring the baby to. They chose the ONE place that is a fine dining establishment. I mean, come on. Take the kid to a more fun place!

I haven't been around my nephew for awhile, but I do know that he is quite babbly, and sort of "whiny" for lack of a better term. He does NOT just sit quietly and enjoy his filet mignon. He doesn't scream or throw tantrums, but would you want to be enjoying your $200+ meal for two next to a babbling baby? :confused:

On the same note, for his FIRST BIRTHDAY, they didn't have a party for him because "he won't remember it." What they did do was go to some 4 star restaurant on a cliff overlooking the ocean in Palos Verdes. This was his "birthday lunch." Kinda weird choice for a one year old, right? It's like they don't do anything for HIM, it's all what THEY want to do. Seems selfish.

I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter because I have kids with "issues" and we can't do stuff like that with them even if we wanted to. :(

[princessgirls]

Natalie,

Your not bitter...it's just hard to take the "All about Me" mentality. I wouldn't take my kids to an "adult" restaurant as babies. For many reasons, one being it's not an appropriate place for a small child. There are PLENTY of appropriate places to bring a child...Fine dining is not one of them, IMO. Yes...it is rude to the other adults eating too. Now, I have kids, so a baby crying doesn't bother me, but some people it really does. Just this weekend, we took the girls to their first Broadway Show and Nice Dinner experience. They are 11 & 10 and appreciate things and know how to behave. They enjoyed it. My sister had an "upscale" wedding in NYC this past May, and I was drilling manners into their heads. They were so funny... yes Mom, napkin on the lap, no elbows on the table, it's not about us, it's Aunt Cindy's day! I was sooo nervous about that leading into the wedding!! They were excellent all day!
While a matter of personal opinion, I had a 1st Birthday party for both my girls, the weekend of their Big Day. They are 13 months a part in age, so that was a party a year there... No they don't remember, but they look at a picture from time to time (I have an eating cake picture of both in special frames on my bay window in the living room with their names engraved in them). It shows that we love THEM and celebrate their first year of life with an Elmo theme or whatever they loved at the time.
While there is no right or wrong way to parent, I find that more people do what is best for THEM and not their kids. I'm thinking there is going to be a great need for Therapists for this generation.

Julie:mickey:

[SBETigg]

I wouldn't rule out going to a fine dining establishment with kids, depending on the kids and the situation. When I was a kid, my grandfather would take me to very nice restaurants, usually when my older sister got fun invitations to parties or things I couldn't attend or wasn't invited to. I loved dressing up and going out, and I learned to eat some very grown-up foods. My favorites were frog's legs and escargot. I have very fond memories of my "dates" with Papa. I'm very adventurous about trying new foods and I enjoy fine cuisine.

When my son was a baby, he was great and we could take him anywhere. We preferred to leave him with his grandparents sometime and go out without him, too, though. And when we did have couple time, it seems we were always seated next to people who brought their baby along. It didn't bother us. We would think, haha, you have to take care of your baby but we get to relax and enjoy our meal. Because even the best-behaved babies take some work. But my daughter, different story. She would get the fussies and we couldn't even take her to family friendly restaurants for six months or so when she was between one and two.

More or less, I think that it's not inappropriate to bring the kids sometimes as much as it's just not always desirable and more work than fun for the parents. Fine dining places can be fun for some kids, but it is harder to keep kids entertained in a more adult environment. You see some people who have trouble paying attention to their kids in any environment, and that's more uncomfortable to me than seeing kids in finer places.

[Mickey'sGirl]

I agree with you Sherri regarding the appropriate vs. the desirable. Well put.

We take our kids everywhere with us, and have since they were infants. They are well travelled, eat well and have good manners, even with their issues (they are both autistic). They can both easily sit through a two hour meal (now, though the younger one not so much when he was a toddler sometimes we had to leave the restaurant) , but honestly, how often does a kid want to sit in one place for that long? We just keep on keeping on ... we haven't really changed much because of having children.

This said, I have absolutely no problem with "adult" only environments. I understand. Including children does change things, no matter how well behaved etc they are.

[dnickels]

I'm childfree by choice because I prefer the lifestyle and options it affords me but I wouldn't begrudge anyone their decision to take their kids somewhere a little bit 'adult' SO LONG AS the parents are ready to get up and leave the second the child starts acting up. Just a few weeks ago there was an article about a couple who brought a baby to a night-time classical concert. The baby started crying of course, and the parents didn't get up and leave so the conductor finally stopped the concert and asked them to please leave (to the applause of the rest of the crowd). Unfortunately I think the attitude of that couple and the instances you mention are becoming more the norm rather than the exception.

Also agree that I'd find it a little weird to be on a winery tour with people who brought their kids along.

[MississippiDisneyFreak]

Yes, I agree. I had to make tons of lifestyle changes after having my son. If I was going to TGIF or Cracker Barrel, I would expect to see kids but an upscale restaurant I think diners should be respectful of others in that they have chosen this type of restaurant to have an elegant adults only meal.

And yes a winery is not an appropriate place for a child.

[cajunprincess]

We have 2 boys, 3 and 7, and we rarely EVER leave them home. They come everywhere with us. We take them to fine dining places, and yes, they have been to wineries. We usually bring books, colors, and other things to keep them entertained while waiting for the food to arrive. We occasionally do have breakdowns, but we typically take them outside, and bring them back in when they calm down. We are fully aware of others around us, and try to make the best experience for everyone involved. If you don't take kids places, they won't learn how to act when in those places. I must admit, sometimes I wish that I did have a babysitter, but when we don't, we just keep open minds, and strong patience!

[DisneyDog]

I've never taken my son to a winery, but I have taken him to some very nice restaurants. When he was a baby, we lived quite far away from the rest of our family and I didn't know anyone to babysit. If it was a birthday or a special occasion, we would bring him with us. We never had a problem, and I had, on several occasions, people come up to me complimenting me on how well-behaved he was. In my opinion, children do not learn how to behave in certain situations by keeping them away from said situations. They learn by exposing them to new and different things. Maybe it depends on the parent. I'm fairly strict and I would have been one of those parents to dart out of the place immediately upon him crying...but he never once did that.

[DVC2004]

I was just going to add- my boys are teens now but they have been eating out with us since they were babies. We went to your typical casual dining places, but at the same time we were teaching them table manners. How to sit down, how to act, how to use their silverware and be polite, don't turn and stare , all that. By ages 3 and 4 1/2, we took them to a nicer place (kids were allowed of course) and they were so good. They didn't get up and run around and wander to other people's tables, or turn around in the booth and stare at other people, and were polite and well behaved. I can't tell you how many compliments we as parents received when they were say ages 3-8, from other people at the restaurant and the servers, about how good they were. I know people would cringe sometimes, like Oh great we're sitting by people with little kids, but it was often those people who would go out of their way to compliment both us and the kids by the end of the meal. I was always proud of that.

We took the kids to Napa Rose but they were probably 7 and 8 ish and they enjoyed it. They like going to a nice place. Of course I would never take them somewhere where it's only adults, but it was Disney so I felt comfortable. They enjoyed the sizzling beach rock and "grown up" food they ordered. They love to try new things like fish, sushi, escargot even. I'm glad they don't just want Mac and Cheese and chicken fingers all the time!

Personally I wouldn't take them to a Hooters or a place where lots of drinking and wild behavior occurs, but a nice restaurant yes.

And I just have to add, we have a Rainforest Cafe close to home. We don't go now they are older but once we were there we all remember a family with various aged children. During the meal the kids spent almost the entire time walking around their table while the parents ate. Not toddlers, kids old enough to understand. They walked up to our table and stared at us while we ate. At no time did the parents bother to pull away from their meals to watch their children, call them back to the table, make sure they were behaving. THAT is the bigger issue. My kids asked me, why are those kids walking around? They couldn't believe it. And I don't want anyone to think I am being rude, the kids did not behave like they wouldn't understand or had special needs (my son does so I get it, when a kids screams out or is hyper sometimes that is the case). The parents were just super self absored and didn't even talk to their kids during the meal! they looked bothered by the fact they were there. The kids weren't even eating, just running over to other people's tables, not only ours, and staring.

[Melanie]

During the meal the kids spent almost the entire time walking around their table while the parents ate. Not toddlers, kids old enough to understand. They walked up to our table and stared at us while we ate. At no time did the parents bother to pull away from their meals to watch their children, call them back to the table, make sure they were behaving. THAT is the bigger issue.

We had a similar issue last month at Le Cellier, although not to the point of the kids coming to the table and staring at us. It was my in-laws first time at Le Cellier, and I really wanted it to be a nice meal. Overall, it definitely was. We were sitting at one of the larger round tables just as you walk down into the dining room, and beside us at a similar table was a family with four kids, only one of whom was in a high chair. The others were probably 3, 5, 7ish. They were fine the majority of the meal, but after they were done eating, the older kids proceeded to get up, walk all around their table, have some sword fights, etc. while the parents were eating their dessert. With as many servers buzzing around Le Cellier in that tight space, it was annoying, especially to my son whose chair they kept bumping, and the parents seemed oblivious.

Overall Nat, I personally agree with you. I've eaten at Napa Rose, California Grill and Jiko, but without kids. I don't recall when we ate at Napa Rose, but I do remember kids at California Grill when we ate there because they were asleep at the table! I personally wouldn't have taken my kids there when they were young, but I have no objection to kids being in these places, especially at Disney. I would be put off if they didn't behave though.

Our kids did kinda change our lifestyle for a couple of years. We cut back a lot on going out to eat, traveling, going to sporting events, movies, etc. But as soon as they hit 2ish and could understand the situation, we started easing them into things. They've always been well behaved for the most part. And dare I say they've been to a winery (or two) with us. :blush:

[MNNHFLTX]

We rarely ate at "fancy" restaurants when my son was little, mainly because we didn't feel like having to worry about him getting a little cranky (actually he was usually a pretty happy, easy-going kid, but they all have their moments!) That said, I don't have a problem with parents bringing children to a fine restaurant. As others have mentioned, as long as the parents are paying attention to the kids and are will to interrupt their meal if they get fussy, it makes no difference to me.

I really don't care where parents bring their kids, as long as they don't overtly disturb others. Honestly, endlessly crying babies/children bother me just as much at "family"restaurants as they would at finer restaurants and I think the same courtesy should apply anywhere.

I do have a question for everyone out there that feels a winery is inappropriate places to bring children--why do you feel this way? Unless a parent is worried that their children will be exposed to adults that are a bit sloshed, which doesn't happen at wineries (in my experience), I personally don't see the harm. In fact, wineries that provide a place to have a picnic lunch are actually kind of a nice way to spend some time as a family. I guess I don't see it as being any different than going to any restaurant where people are drinking alcohol, including family-friendly ones.

[Dulcee]

I do have a question for everyone out there that feels a winery is inappropriate places to bring children--why do you feel this way? Unless a parent is worried that their children will be exposed to adults that are a bit sloshed, which doesn't happen at wineries (in my experience), I personally don't see the harm. In fact, wineries that provide a place to have a picnic lunch are actually kind of a nice way to spend some time as a family. I guess I don't see it as being any different than going to any restaurant where people are drinking alcohol, including family-friendly ones.

I was wondering this too! It's agriculture. We've been to a couple and they usually involve a fair amount of history and science along with wine tasting.

And come to think of it when we went to a whiskey facility in Kentucky there were quite a few kids on the tour. They just couldn't taste at the end.

[Melanie]

I do have a question for everyone out there that feels a winery is inappropriate places to bring children--why do you feel this way? Unless a parent is worried that their children will be exposed to adults that are a bit sloshed, which doesn't happen at wineries (in my experience), I personally don't see the harm. In fact, wineries that provide a place to have a picnic lunch are actually kind of a nice way to spend some time as a family. I guess I don't see it as being any different than going to any restaurant where people are drinking alcohol, including family-friendly ones.

It probably won't surprise you to know that I totally agree Beth. :wine:

Oh, I should add that my boys have toured a brewery as well.

[DVC2004]

We had a similar issue last month at Le Cellier, although not to the point of the kids coming to the table and staring at us. It was my in-laws first time at Le Cellier, and I really wanted it to be a nice meal. Overall, it definitely was. We were sitting at one of the larger round tables just as you walk down into the dining room, and beside us at a similar table was a family with four kids, only one of whom was in a high chair. The others were probably 3, 5, 7ish. They were fine the majority of the meal, but after they were done eating, the older kids proceeded to get up, walk all around their table, have some sword fights, etc. while the parents were eating their dessert. With as many servers buzzing around Le Cellier in that tight space, it was annoying, especially to my son whose chair they kept bumping, and the parents seemed oblivious.


Yeah that's it exactly. If you have kids and they get cranky during the meal, be courteous to others. Stop eating and tend to the kids. If it means one of you has to get up and walk outside with them for a few minutes, so be it. If it means one of you has to take them to the restroom to talk to them about behavior for a few minutes, you do it. We did this when ours were small, and they learned. It's the oblivious parents that get me irked. It's not the kids fault if they're not taught. But how you can allow the kids to run around while the servers are trying to get through, or to go over and stare at people while they eat, is amazing to me.

[BrerGnat]

I do have a question for everyone out there that feels a winery is inappropriate places to bring children--why do you feel this way? Unless a parent is worried that their children will be exposed to adults that are a bit sloshed, which doesn't happen at wineries (in my experience), I personally don't see the harm. In fact, wineries that provide a place to have a picnic lunch are actually kind of a nice way to spend some time as a family. I guess I don't see it as being any different than going to any restaurant where people are drinking alcohol, including family-friendly ones.

I don't think that a winery should be off limits to an older child who can understand the process of making wine and learn from a tour.

I think it's weird to strap a six month old baby to your chest and go wine tasting, with the INTENT to get sloshed somewhat, as a way to "getaway" as a family. That's just wrong, in my opinion and it shows a blatant disregard for other patrons who are trying to have a nice time, and for what it's worth, it makes you look like a pretty awful parent. Would you wear your baby into a bar and have a few drinks?

[AgentC]

I don't think that a winery should be off limits to an older child who can understand the process of making wine and learn from a tour.

I think it's weird to strap a six month old baby to your chest and go wine tasting, with the INTENT to get sloshed somewhat, as a way to "getaway" as a family. That's just wrong, in my opinion and it shows a blatant disregard for other patrons who are trying to have a nice time, and for what it's worth, it makes you look like a pretty awful parent. Would you wear your baby into a bar and have a few drinks?

After reading everyone's comments, I think it really comes down to the parent's attitude and intention.

If you are a parent who brings your child to a fine dining establishment or a winery because you want to expose them, you like to keep them with you, or you have no choice AND you act appropriately when they misbehave/start to cry etc, it's not an issue. And I do see an argument for exposing children to lots of different things. I actually wonder if my 6 year old would be so picky if I had exposed him to more foods younger.

Now if you are a parent who brings your child wherever you go because you want to do what you want to do AND you don't care how it affects the child or the people around you, that is another situation entirely. Unfortunately there are lots of people who think the world revolve around them.

[SBETigg]

I don't think that a winery should be off limits to an older child who can understand the process of making wine and learn from a tour.

I think it's weird to strap a six month old baby to your chest and go wine tasting, with the INTENT to get sloshed somewhat, as a way to "getaway" as a family. That's just wrong, in my opinion and it shows a blatant disregard for other patrons who are trying to have a nice time, and for what it's worth, it makes you look like a pretty awful parent. Would you wear your baby into a bar and have a few drinks?

I wouldn't take my baby to a bar. That reminds me of a scene in Sweet Home Alabama, actually. "You have a baby. In a bar." :D But I have had a drink with kids with me in restaurants, so... is it all that different? Yes, I guess so. A bar is not a child suitable atmosphere, for the most part. But a winery... I'm still thinking that's different, not exactly a bar, and not really where people go to get tipsy, more to learn about wine. So I think that wouldn't bother me, as long as the child was well looked after and not a nuisance. Is it preferable to go without kids or babies, yes.

I think when you have one child, and the child is still a baby, you don't make the sweeping life changes you might make if you have two children or a child over one. Babies are portable, and if well-tended, why not? So yes, I guess this doesn't bother me.

[kakn7294]

After reading everyone's comments, I think it really comes down to the parent's attitude and intention.

If you are a parent who brings your child to a fine dining establishment or a winery because you want to expose them, you like to keep them with you, or you have no choice AND you act appropriately when they misbehave/start to cry etc, it's not an issue. And I do see an argument for exposing children to lots of different things. I actually wonder if my 6 year old would be so picky if I had exposed him to more foods younger.

Now if you are a parent who brings your child wherever you go because you want to do what you want to do AND you don't care how it affects the child or the people around you, that is another situation entirely. Unfortunately there are lots of people who think the world revolve around them.

I think this about sums up my opinion. My daughters go pretty much everywhere with us. They have never been to a winery although that's because we (the adults) have no interest in going to one but I would not be opposed to taking them. When we go out to dinner, they eat where we eat and they behave because they know that's what's expected. They've been to the theater, DD16 went to the first Batman movie when she was a baby (people didn't even know she was there until the lights came up at the end), and they go to weddings (when invited) and funerals. We've taught them to be well-behaved and respectful. When they aren't, we leave and deal with the situation.

[greengeen]

We never took our children (who are better behaved than 99% of the children I see) to "nice" restaurants at WDW until they were school age. Out of consideration for ourselves AND others. Now I just grit my teeth when I see people wheel their double stroller into Artist Point or Jiko, or worse yet, an "adult" venue like Territory Lounge or Victoria Falls. Screaming toddlers and infants do not belong in an adult lounge. But some people never get it, because they think "it's Disney and it's all about the kids". NO. It's not.

[BrerGnat]

We never took our children (who are better behaved than 99% of the children I see) to "nice" restaurants at WDW until they were school age. Out of consideration for ourselves AND others. Now I just grit my teeth when I see people wheel their double stroller into Artist Point or Jiko, or worse yet, an "adult" venue like Territory Lounge or Victoria Falls. Screaming toddlers and infants do not belong in an adult lounge. But some people never get it, because they think "it's Disney and it's all about the kids". NO. It's not.

This is EXACTLY how I feel! My kids are actually very well behaved these days (finally!). We go out to eat once a week. They sit nicely, napkins on laps, order politely, and play nicely with crayons or quiet toys while they wait for the food to arrive. A waitress even mentioned on Saturday how "gentlemanly" they were acting. And even still, I will NOT take them to a fine dining restaurant, because they are just not quite there yet. I suppose I have high expectations for behavior and I know that my kids are not ready yet. Plus, I doubt they have macaroni and cheese at Ruth's Chris Steak House...

However, my feeling is just that if you want to have kids, be willing to make some concessions to your existing life. Kids are not trophies, but it seems like some people just have them to "put a check in the box." Kids don't belong everywhere, just as adults don't belong everywhere. Perfect example, we went to San Francisco to visit my sister last year. We went to a playground in Golden Gate park. There was a sign: "Adults MUST be accompanied by children under the age of 13." Not the other way around. This playground was for CHILDREN.

Another good example is Victoria and Albert's. I actually applaud their "no children" policy. I think it needs to probably be extended to a few other signature dining venues at WDW.

Just my 2 cents, though. We purposely had kids at a young age so that we would still be somewhat young (40's) when our kids were out of the house and THEN we will do all that fun "adult" stuff.

[MississippiDisneyFreak]

I don't know, I just don't think visiting a winery is an ideal family vacation... while yes nothing wrong with them seeing the vineyards but let's face it if you visit a winery you are going to go to the tastings and there are going to be more than a few people getting sloshed...and no I am not so prudish I have a problem with kids being in a restaurant where some people are having a glass of wine with dinner I do that myself.

I guess what really gets me is the people who don't have well behaved children letting them run amuck in an establishment that caters to adults and not giving two thoughts to the fact they are ruining others experiences. The attitude of some is that my kid can do whatever he wants don't dare say anything about it that bothers me. The entitlement attitude.

To those that have well behaved kids or get up and take their kids out the minute they melt down, no I don't have a problem with them in fine restaurants really.

[dnickels]

I do have a question for everyone out there that feels a winery is inappropriate places to bring children--why do you feel this way? Unless a parent is worried that their children will be exposed to adults that are a bit sloshed, which doesn't happen at wineries (in my experience), I personally don't see the harm. In fact, wineries that provide a place to have a picnic lunch are actually kind of a nice way to spend some time as a family. I guess I don't see it as being any different than going to any restaurant where people are drinking alcohol, including family-friendly ones.

I view the wine tour demographic as being primarily made up of two main groups
a) couples / honeymooners having a romantic time
b) girls weekend type trips where people are looking to spend time with their girlfriends and have a little escape from the kids/hubby/diapers/household chores.
Maybe wine tours have changed recently but those are the two main groups I've always thought they were marketed towards. It just doesn't seem (at least in my head) that any of those groups really picture babies/toddlers/kids as being part of their tour so that's why I think it'd be weird.

It's like when we were back in college and you'd see the obviously middle-aged guy with his wife and kids having dinner at the bar when all the college kids were coming in to party. He was probably in town for homecoming or something and wanted to see how the old hangout was but for 95% of the people in the bar he was just the weird guy who brought his family to a college bar.

:twocents:

[c&d]

We started taking our son out to restaurants when he was about a year old. Granted it was our local restaurant and we had been regulars for years.

There were however certain rules, if he fussed one of us promptly picked him up and took him out of the restaurant until he calmed down. Once he did, he came back. Only once did we have to get our meal boxed to go. By the time he was 3 we could take him to any restaurant and know he would behave, stay in his seat and not talk loudly.

When we would travel and he was ~7 he was ordering lobster and eating it all. We had to listen to comments from other tables about how could we let him order the most expensive thing on the menu, he's not going to eat it all and then having them stare at us all dinner long. That was extraordinarily rude, up there with whining kids.

I think it all depends on the child and the parent. I've seen some badly behaved adults at restaurants that have ruined meals with loud talking and inappropriate behavior. :blush:

[MNNHFLTX]

I think it's weird to strap a six month old baby to your chest and go wine tasting, with the INTENT to get sloshed somewhat, as a way to "getaway" as a family.
I have been to quite a few wineries and have never seen anyone getting sloshed, but that's just my experience. In fact, in most states wineries have the same requirement as other establishments to limit alcohol served. I guess we just feel differently about this, as I wouldn't necessarily think someone is an awful parent for bringing an infant to a winery. It would depend on the circumstances.

[MstngDrvnDsnyLvr]

Okay - Do you have to change your lifestyle because you have children? No, you do not. Does your lifestyle change because you have children? Yes, it usually does to some extent.

My husband and I have 4 children. They grew up going to nice restaurants, BUT they also did not get loud, did not run around other tables, eat other people's food, etc. (And yes, I've had that happen to me at a local place recently.) We EXPECTED them to behave properly, taught them how to behave at the table at home by having REGULAR family dinners (still do) and IF a young child of ours got fussy, one of us would leave with the child until we could either return, or dinner with the others was finished and a box was brought home.

Would I have toured a Winery with small children - probably not. But that is my choice. And I know some wineries near me do not allow those under 21 to enter the buildings, but they are allowed to tour the grounds.

Lifestyle - did mine change upon having children - of course. But it was my choice. Did it change by much - who is to say that at this point my life as a mother.

As my children are now older, we are able to do more with them. We can travel longer without stopping, we have other choices for destinations, etc.

It all a personal choice. If you don't want to change your lifestyle and want to include your child in everything that you have done in the past - fine. That's what makes our world so unique, that we do not raise our children in the exact same manner.

[Dulcee]

Since this seems to have become a bit of a hot thread I'd thought I'd post this article dealing with some of the things we've discussed here. (I hope that's ok!) The article is titled "Why French Parents are Superior" is from the Wall Street Journal and I'm fairly certain was talked about Good Morning America a few days ago....just another way to look at if you expose kids early to adult expectations they grow up a little differently.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204740904577196931457473816.html?f b_ref=wsj_share_FB_bot&fb_source=timeline

[BrerGnat]

I have been to quite a few wineries and have never seen anyone getting sloshed.

You've obviously never been to Napa/Sonoma on a Saturday. ;)

People in wine country, CA generally go "winery hopping" and are, for the most part, hammered. It's an adult experience for sure.

I appreciate all the differing opinions on this thread. Perhaps my own thinking is a bit narrow. I know my husband and I have had to make a LOT of sacrifices in the name of our special needs boys, and it just rubs me the wrong way, I guess, when I see people with little ones who seemingly have made NO concessions to their lifestyle. I fully admit that this is the ugly green monster rearing its head sometimes. :( It would be nice to know what it's like to parent a child who could just go with the flow and accompany us wherever we went.

I appreciate everyone's differing parenting styles, except the style that results in bratty, misbehaved kids. ;)

[FriendsofMickey]

Well, I sort of agree with you. I definately agree that having kids should mean a lifestyle change.
For us it meant not going to Disney until they were almost 3. It also meant, not going on any rides that they could not ride (we never did the baby swap). I chose restaurants that were kid friendly while at Disney and still do for the most part (we still hit Brown Derby almost every trip). We also have chosen not to go out and leave the kids at home (ever). We have put them up front and center (as did our parents with us).
However, that said, I think some kids can easily be taken to fancy restaurants at a young age. For example, when my girls were 18 months old, we were at the beach. We went to a fancier restaurant. We walked in and had dinner. We never thought twice about it until some older people walked over to our table about 30 or so minutes later and said, "When you walked in with your kids, we thought it was goign to absolutely horrible. However, your children and the best behaved children we have ever seen." They stood there and talked to us for a while before leaving the restaurant. I was :cloud9:, but I guess since I knew my girls were well behaved at the dinner table, I never thought twice about taking them.

[BrerGnat]

I guess my thinking is that you just don't KNOW what a one year old is going to do. Babies/toddlers are notoriously unpredictable. By the time they make a fuss (if that is going to happen), even if you remove them from the restaurant, they have ALREADY disturbed people. Should adults in a fancy restaurant wanting to have an adult experience have to be subject to that? Is that fair?

I would have been mortified if that happened with my child. The fanciest we got when our kids were in the questionable behavior stage was a place like Cheesecake Factory (where the loudness of the place helped drown out our kids yelling). Actually, that's still about where we are comfortable with. :blush: I just know my kids are unpredictable, and I don't want the embarrassment of having to remove them from a nicer establishment just because I wanted to eat there. That's what "date night" is for!

Even when your kids are angels 99% of the time, there is always that 1% chance that they are going to let loose.

[Ian]

I don't have a strong opinion either way really ... I think our two older kids (DD9 and DS5) are pretty well behaved and I certainly would have no concerns about taking them to a nice restaurant. They'd be fine and both of them are actually fairly daring when it comes to food. Heck, they even eat sushi!

My 18 month old twins, though ... no. I can barely take them to McDonald's without being humiliated. ;)

I still don't think I would take any of my kids to a super fancy restaurant, though. Like for example we've never gone to V&A's in WDW with them and probably wouldn't. We've eaten at California Grill, though, and we didn't take the kids with us there either.

I personally think that some experiences are really intended for older kids (late teens) and adults only. Moreso out of respect for the other folks in attendance than anything else. I have to say, even as a parent of four kids, I get seriously annoyed when I'm eating out even at a moderately nice restaurant and I see misbehaving kids with parents ignoring them. To me, it just shows a total lack of respect for the people around you.

I would definitely take my kids on a winery tour, though. Heck, I took DS5 on a tour of the Yuengling brewery last year and he had a great time. My cousin took his daughter, too, and they both really enjoyed themselves.

[MNNHFLTX]

You've obviously never been to Napa/Sonoma on a Saturday. ;)

Actually I have, and with my (then) 13-year-old in tow (but not sampling the wines, of course!)

Every parent has to make these types of decisions based on their personal family situation. You are obviously in tune with your boys personalities and needs and have adjusted accordingly. :)

[princessgirls]

After reading everyone's comments, I think it really comes down to the parent's attitude and intention.

If you are a parent who brings your child to a fine dining establishment or a winery because you want to expose them, you like to keep them with you, or you have no choice AND you act appropriately when they misbehave/start to cry etc, it's not an issue. And I do see an argument for exposing children to lots of different things. I actually wonder if my 6 year old would be so picky if I had exposed him to more foods younger.

Now if you are a parent who brings your child wherever you go because you want to do what you want to do AND you don't care how it affects the child or the people around you, that is another situation entirely. Unfortunately there are lots of people who think the world revolve around them.

It is sad, but very true!!!
Here it is folks!!! The root of the problem.
Guess what?? I chose not to take my kids to upscale restaurants because I WANT TO ENJOY A NIGHT OUT WITH MY HUSBAND, TALK, ENJOY A FINE MEAL, WINE, AND EACH OTHER!
I pay my share of sitters (family on a rare occasion). We also take our kids a lot of places and have not gone away just the two of us in 8 or 9 years. We will have our time when the kids are grown. I enjoy doing things with them, and on occasion WE need some couple time without them!
Just my opinion of course...
Julie:mickey:

[Melanie]

I would definitely take my kids on a winery tour, though. Heck, I took DS5 on a tour of the Yuengling brewery last year and he had a great time. My cousin took his daughter, too, and they both really enjoyed themselves.

:thumbsup:

[AgentC]

It is sad, but very true!!!
Here it is folks!!! The root of the problem.
Guess what?? I chose not to take my kids to upscale restaurants because I WANT TO ENJOY A NIGHT OUT WITH MY HUSBAND, TALK, ENJOY A FINE MEAL, WINE, AND EACH OTHER!
I pay my share of sitters (family on a rare occasion). We also take our kids a lot of places and have not gone away just the two of us in 8 or 9 years. We will have our time when the kids are grown. I enjoy doing things with them, and on occasion WE need some couple time without them!
Just my opinion of course...
Julie:mickey:

I agree. We love California Grill, but we don't take the kids. That is our time for a special adult meal. :)

After reading everybody's comments, I had never considered a brewery/winery tour but I but my 6 year old would be fascinated by the process. Now the 3 year , she would be a whole different story. :D

[BrerGnat]

Heck, I took DS5 on a tour of the Yuengling brewery last year and he had a great time. My cousin took his daughter, too, and they both really enjoyed themselves.

Well, they probably enjoyed themselves because they weren't allowed to taste the beer. :ack:

:D

Sorry, I just do NOT get the obsession with that terrible, awful beer. The home we are renting has a full bar in the basement, with a kegerator and everything. When we moved in, the owner "gifted" us with a keg of Yuengling. DH, an avid beer lover, tried as hard as he could to drink it all, but in the end, he dumped almost half the keg. He just couldn't do it anymore. I took one sip and surrendered.

[Ian]

Sorry, I just do NOT get the obsession with that terrible, awful beer. The home we are renting has a full bar in the basement, with a kegerator and everything. When we moved in, the owner "gifted" us with a keg of Yuengling. DH, an avid beer lover, tried as hard as he could to drink it all, but in the end, he dumped almost half the keg. He just couldn't do it anymore. I took one sip and surrendered.On that we agree. I don't drink Yuengling ... I think it's gross! :ack:

[TheVBs]

I'm going with the consensus here on the fine dining. I wouldn't think anything of seeing kids at a higher end restaurant. I would be bothered by negligent parents. And, they do serve mac & cheese at Ruth Chris! We took the girls there several years ago when we were in Chicago and had a great meal. It all comes down to the family and the kids. When our oldest was a baby and toddler we could take her anywhere and she was quiet and happy. Our youngest, no way. We could barely take her to Big Boy. It took a few years for that to change.

The winery, I don't feel I can comment on. We went to one on our honeymoon and I can't honestly say that I remember if there were kids there or not. Again, it's situational. I could totally see being on a family trip and stopping to check out a tour.

A couple of things to think about. When families are on vacation together, they may not have the option of a baby sitter. Certainly if we'd decided not to take the girls to Ruth Chris that evening in Chicago, we wouldn't have been able to go either. Bringing the kids along may be a family's only chance to experience something. Is it wrong for parents to sometimes decide that something is important to them to see or experience, even though it may not be ideal for kids. I really don't think so!

And, I don't think it's safe to assume that because someone picks a different type of celebration for their kids birthday, it automatically means it's selfish. Parents often think that other parents should do things the same way they do, and that kind of mystifies me. Every family is different and you have to do what works for your family. I wouldn't assume a non-traditional first birthday celebration means the child is getting cheated or the parents are being selfish. Does the child feel loved and important? That's the main thing.

And, I want to say that I completely understand that green eyed monster thing. Our oldest daughter went through several years of a serious illness. During that time there were a lot of things that we just could not do. When I saw other families doing things I wish we could do and getting on with their lives, I was convinced that they had it so easy and that they were so much luckier than we were. What I came to realize later is that there is no greener grass. No matter what we were going through, the other families had their problems and challenges too. Could I argue that I felt they weren't as bad as ours? Sure. But anyone's biggest problem is the worst thing they've ever dealt with. Does that make sense? Remember that no matter how ideal another family looks, they're dealing with problems and stress too.

[diz_girl]

Or, am I being ridiculous?
...
Am I overreacting?

Yes and yes.

Do these places ban children? If yes, then I'd say that it's inapproriate. Are your sister and BIL going to both get sloshed in Napa with baby in-tow? Is the baby imbibing? If so, then that's inappropriate.

Otherwise, it's none of your business. I've got an older sister who feels compelled to tell me her opinion about my kids and what I should or shouldn't do with them. You know what? It's really annoying. I don't do it her. You may be projecting your own need for 'alone time' on your sister. Your parental duties are more challenging than hers right now, and it's understandable that you would need time alone with your husband. She and your BIL are still in the Honeymoon phase with their baby and want to be around him all the time. If they want to do it while doing some of their favorite things, then fine. That's their business.

We've always taken our kids to restaurants, especially when my oldest was a baby, and I've taken him (now 4) to a very fine dining establishment right after he turned 3. No kids menu. He ate off the adult menu, but he was fine. We've always brought him along to other nice restaurants and the only comments we got were how quiet and well-behaved he is. Now that we've got two boys, it's more difficult from a logistical standpoint to lug them around, mainly because until recently I had to bring two kids, a diaper bag, baby food and formula. However, I've taken both of them to restaurants by myself and been fine. Now that the my baby boy (13 mo) is eating table food, I plan to eat out more often. It will be even easier once he's potty trained within the year. It depends on the kids and the adults. The next time I'm at WDW I may take them to Narcoossee's or maybe even Cali Grille. They are welcomed there. ButI won't be taking them to V&A. You know why? That place is too darn expensive, plus they don't serve children under 10.

[BrerGnat]

Otherwise, it's none of your business. I've got an older sister who feels compelled to tell me her opinion about my kids and what I should or shouldn't do with them. You know what? It's really annoying. I don't do it her.

See, I don't do this though. Rather than say this stuff to her, I chose a (mostly) anonymous message board to voice my feelings and do a self-check to see if most people felt the way I did or not. I appreciated all the feedback, because it made me see things from another point of view. I have never said a word to my sister about her parenting of her child. My mother used to criticize me ALL the time for the way I did things when my kids were babies/toddlers, when I knew something was "wrong" with them but it hadn't been diagnosed yet. I did what I needed to do for things to work, but my mom saw me as being overly controlling and rigid. It used to really upset me when she'd say stuff to me about it, because I knew that I was only doing what I HAD to do for my kids, and it was actually very different from how I had imagined I would be as a parent. That was hard for me. So, I have no intention of ever voicing this kind of stuff to my sister's face. I think she is a good parent, but I just get irritated seeing her doing things that don't really jive with her personality, and that I know she is just doing because "that's what everyone else is doing." She's kind of a sheep that way. It's sad to me. A lot of it is the L.A. mentality that you have to do what's "cool." :rolleyes: I hate that and it makes me sad that my nephew is being raised by parents who think it's more important to appear outwardly hip than anything else.

[diz_girl]

I think she is a good parent, but I just get irritated seeing her doing things that don't really jive with her personality, and that I know she is just doing because "that's what everyone else is doing." She's kind of a sheep that way. It's sad to me. A lot of it is the L.A. mentality that you have to do what's "cool." :rolleyes: I hate that and it makes me sad that my nephew is being raised by parents who think it's more important to appear outwardly hip than anything else.

So is that the real root of your beef? Is it her doing this out of superficiality and being a 'sheep', moreso than where is an appropriate place to take the kids? If it was her personality to just include the kids in everything and have fun, rather than keeping up with the L.A. lifestyle, would you have as much of a problem with her doing this? Maybe, just maybe, you can talk to her about your concerns over her doing the L.A. thing and what's cool, and your concern that she's happy and is accepted for herself rather than going along with everyone else, instead of approaching it from her fitness as a parent.

If your nephew is having fun, isn't being neglected or harmed, and isn't raising a ruckus that bothers others, is it really that bad that he's taken to a nice restaurant?


Oh, and bring on the self-checking in the (mostly) anonymous boards, that's why we're here.