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View Full Version : Epcot bashers...I don't understand the nostalgia



azcavalier
10-11-2011, 01:50 PM
So, I'm reading "The Epcot Explorer's Encyclopedia", and it describes all of the attractions that have ever been at Epcot, and all the changes that have taken place.

I've got to say, all those of you who claim that Epcot is going downhill, who miss Horizons and World of Motion...I don't see it. Granted, I never experienced those attractions. But from what i've read, they were *very* similar to Spaceship Earth. They used Omni-movers to take you through various scenes filled with animatronics and a narrator explaining the history of travel, or the possibilities of the future.

I'm sure that when they came out, they were interesting to ride on....Spaceship Earth is one of my favorites, even after the refurbs. But the one omnimover ride with audio-animatronics is enough. I like the changes that have been made.

I do wish I could have seen the Wonders of Life pavilion in its heyday.

Stu29573
10-11-2011, 02:01 PM
Yes, they were based on similar technology, but they were so much more than that. The stories were different and, most importantly, were very very optimistic about our future. I think that's what I miss most, that good feeling that everything is going to be ok.
As far as being the same ride systems (they actually weren't but they were close) it's kind of like saying "I don't read books because I read one once and they all work the same way, what with the turning pages and all...":mickey:

magicofdisney
10-11-2011, 02:08 PM
Don't you need a personal connection to even have nostalgia?

Buttercup
10-11-2011, 02:08 PM
Well, I'm not an "Epcot Basher" :mickey: .
I really loved Epcot as a kid with all the omnimover rides like World of Motion and Horizons. And I'm sad that they're gone because yes, they were a part of my childhood experience with Epcot.

But I don't think you can say that they were all the "same". It's like saying Pirates of the Caribbean and It's a Small World are the "same" because they both are boat rides that float past scenes. Or that Winnie The Pooh and Snow White are the "same" because they're both themed cars rolling around on a track. WOM, Horizons and SE all had similar ride cars, yes, but the stories were different and they were all themed quite differently.
WOM featured very elaborate scenes with multiple AA's, it had a pretty impressive (for the era) "speed tunnel", and a very catchy soundtrack!
Horizons had quite elaborate sets as well, like underwater, space, desert, etc. and a catchy themesong too. You also got to choose your own ending to the ride which was unheard of at the time, certainly it wasn't a part of Spaceship Earth back then.

So they were all different. And yes, I miss them. That doesn't mean I don't love Epcot nowadays too. I will always hold a special spot in my memories for World of Motion and Horizons because they remind me of my childhood. And I wish they were still there so I could share those with my kids too. But I appreciate the new attractions Epcot has also brought in. In a perfect world, the park would have BOTH!

Goes4FastPass
10-11-2011, 02:39 PM
Both Horizons and World of Motion were replaced with attractions that are better than what they replaced.

Wonders of Life had trouble finding its way (and retaining a sponsor). Cranium Command was swell but would need a periodic video refresh. Hans and Franz here to pump-you-up was already dated as the area closed. Body Wars was a let’s not and say we did repeat of Star Tours and All About Me was the imagineer’s attempt to do a Disney G rated theme park children’s sex ed attraction – which is as difficult as explaining if Mickey is a mouse and Pluto is a dog then what’s Goofy?

I like EPCOT and I look forward to E-ticket attractions being added or updated in Imagination and Energy so they have their time of people advising visitors planning a trip, “As soon as the gate opens, dash to the Imagination pavilion and get a FastPass for…”

I’d like to see EPCOT have more rides. There’s no animatronic person waving his arms and explaining something attraction that thrills my grandson like BTMRR does.

MNNHFLTX
10-11-2011, 03:16 PM
Both Horizons and World of Motion were replaced with attractions that are better than what they replaced.
I don't know that I agree that what replaced these attractions is better--different, certainly, but all good in their own way. I do love Mission: Space but Horizons was special too. And while Test Track has a few thrills, World of Motion was more educational and interesting (to me).

But I'm not bashing Epcot, it's my favorite park! Change is inevitable, even at WDW. :mickey:

magicgal
10-11-2011, 04:07 PM
To me it is exactly the nostalgic part of it that I miss. I experienced Epcot when I was younger and never forgot those original Epcot Center experiences. Plus, it was classic to me, so that is why I miss the old Epcot dearly. I do love Soarin and Test Track..so, it is always nice to welcome some great new attractions. Too bad we couldn't just have them all! :thumbsup:

JasonH
10-11-2011, 08:26 PM
To me, this is what I would say is the best explanation as far as any "bashing" of Epcot goes. In all actuality, it's not bashing against Epcot itself. It is a wonderful theme park, 2 distinct sections to it, lots of great attractions and theming (let's face it, they brought in actual tile-workers from Morocco to help build the pavilion to get that one as realistic as possible). And yes, we truly do miss the old attractions, but for a very good reason. That reason is the fact of why we bash Epcot.....it's lost focus of what Epcot was originally but mostly in regards to Future World.

Future World was all about the future and showcasing the newest technologies that are out there now, but also what could be within our future. And that's what the newest attractions and refurbs have lost sight of. Yes, Test Track, Mission:Space and Soarin' are probably the most popular attractions they have there, but only Mission:Space comes the closest into what Future World is supposed to be about (I mean, we haven't sent people to Mars yet, so that's definitely in the future). Spaceship Earth is supposed to be about communication but look at the journey on the way back down to ground level, that is most certainly NOT about communication. Soarin', although a great attraction and I do love it, it needs to be housed elsewhere other than The Land pavilion which is about how we grow foods now and looking into future ways to do it and also it's about land and animal conservation. Where does Soarin' fit into that kind of picture? And DON'T get me started on JII and how it is now compared to the original! lol

The past attractions offered that focus and truly held on to what Epcot's Future World was to be about. It's just unfortunate that some of it got dated after so many years and the powers that be at Epcot I guess just didn't know the best way to handle changing the attractions so that way it could keep the focus. Sorry so long, so I'll get off my :soapbox:

texas211
10-11-2011, 09:56 PM
TestTrack has some great things and may be better. Though I am one of those who question the loss of the theme of future world.
Mission Space? I can only hope it falls into the sink hole one day.

Buttercup
10-11-2011, 11:43 PM
JasonH:
:thumbsup::high5::hands::ditto:
I will start the slow clapping now for you. Others will join in. :D:mickey:

Main Street Jim
10-12-2011, 05:10 AM
Both Horizons and World of Motion were replaced with attractions that are better than what they replaced.Depends on what your defintion of "better" is.

EPCOT was NOT meant to be an "all-thrills" park, which is why now, JIYIwF, Nemo (don't get me started...), WoL, and UoE all have a hard time now drawing in guests. Today's generation wants it "now, now, now!" They don't have the attention span we used to have as a society. EPCOT as a theme park was originally intended to be educational in a sense.

Horizons? It was meant to be a sequel to one of Walt Disney's greatest personal creations: Carousel of Progress. The technology used in Horizons was *amazing* at the time. It wasn't the traditional Omnimover system. It was the first attraction to use IMAX - which is now being used in Soarin'. World of Motion...ehhh..it *was* pretty cool, especially the Transportarium in the post-show.

Mission: Space and Test Track? I can take 'em or leave 'em - not something we have to do every time we go to the park. But Horizons, WoM, UoE (the original version, don't really care much for the Ellen version), Living Seas...all *great* attractions in my opinion. Oh - and the original JII? Look it up on YouTube (for the full original ride-through). MUCH better than what's there now.

As far as "all Omnimover attractions are the same"? So you rode on Buzz Lightyear. Does that mean you *won't* ride Haunted Mansion, Spaceship Earth, PeopleMover, etc., because "they're all the same Omnimover"?

azcavalier
10-12-2011, 07:41 AM
After I posted that yesterday, later I was thinking that I didn't get my point across. Let me try it again.

While the sets in Horizons and World of Motion were different, and the theming was different...it just looks like Epcot had these three big attractions that were all very similar. The attractions that replaced them are all very different. So, while I can understand that the technology at the time was amazing, there just didn't seem to be much variety, which is what we have now. I like that. But this is simply my opinion. I don't like when Disney (or any theme park) takes one attraction and just uses the same technology to make a couple of different attractions in the same park. For example, I hate that in the Magic Kingdom we have Dumbo, the Flying Carpets, and the Astro Orbiters. They're all the same ride! In the same park!

I think of video games...my son is always looking a new video games, and they're all first person shooters. It doesn't matter if it's Gears of War, Medal of Honor, Mass Effect, etc....the characters are different, the bad guys are different, the maps are different, and the scenery is different. But, in the end, you're the main character, trying to negotiate through a lever by blowing people away. It's the same thing, over and over, with nothing new or interesting. When something new does come out, such as Portal, then i'm all for it.

And, yes, you do have to have experienced something to have nostalgia. Touche.

2Epcot
10-12-2011, 08:08 AM
I agree with what others have said. Epcot was not meant to be a "thrill rides" park, but more educational. Much of the dislike from many is that Epcot has lost focus from what made it so unique.

My first trip to Epcot was in 1985. I was blown away by the Future World attractions on that first trip. I also enjoyed World Showcase, the CircleVision films, and The American Adventure being my favorites. Epcot is still my favorite WDW park, but it is sad to see what has become of it over the last couple of decades.

The new rides are great, but I would have rather seen them as additions along with updates to the current attractions. Of course sometimes the updates don't go so well. I've never been a fan of Ellen's Energy Adventure, and still prefer the original version of Universe of Energy.

I remember in the early days of EPCOT Center people talked about it being an adult park, and not for kids. As a young person during my first trips in '85 and '88, I loved that it was educational and fun at the same time. Future World did give you a great feeling about the future and the world we live in. Never once did I feel like it would have been better with more thrill rides. I'm glad I got to see EPCOT Center from the beginning.

PopeCharming
10-12-2011, 10:25 AM
Perhaps Horizons, World of Motion and Spaceship Earth were technologically similar, but they couldn't have been more different in tone. Spaceship Earth was dramatic and awe-inspiring-- even brooding and moody, in Jeremy Irons version. World of Motion was jocular and light-hearted, filled with visual puns and humorous tableaux. Horizons was heart-warming and visionary-- which balanced fantastical predictions for the future with the very relatable topic of family life that every guest could enjoy.

Here's the difference-- Test Track and Mission: Space are both great rides-- but they are part of a newer Epcot that, for all of its technological prowess, lacks the heart and the vision of the earlier Epcot. the 1980s and 1990s Epcot expounded a particular worldview of humanity growing better, breaking barriers of space and distance, and reaching out towards each other- whether through communication breakthroughs or transportation development, the harnessing of energy, or the power of imagination. It's very much a contemporary of the humanism found in shows like Star Trek: the Next Generation. Today's Epcot lacks that mission and that vision-- you can make the argument that its discrete attractions are superior-- and I can frankly understand why some like Test Track and Mission: Space and Soarin' more, even if I do not. But as a collective whole, the Epcot experience is lacking from what it was 20 years ago.

And that is the crucial difference. A 12-year-old would come off "Test Track" thinking "that was a really fun ride." A 12-year-old would come off of World of Motion, ideally, and think "Gee, I might like to become an inventor."

BrerGnat
10-12-2011, 10:30 AM
Well, I think without having experienced these attractions, one cannot really "get it".

I think what I miss about "old Epcot" is that it truly was a place where you could learn in a fun way. I was a young kid in the 80s and Epcot blew my mind! There are things I learned from riding World of Motion that I will never forget. Those scenes are still in my head, and taught me about the history of transportation way before I learned it at school. Horizons was so cool, and honestly, I think it should have stuck around as a tribute to how we viewed the future back then (even though, still, we are not even close to reaching "the future as seen in Horizons"). It could still be relevant, because we are still not learning in underwater classrooms. ;)

The Imagination pavilion used to also be amazing. It was like a Children's Museum at the end. I don't get why they took all those cool exhibits away. We come across them still in kids museums these days and my boys LOVE it. It's sad that it was changed so drastically, when it really didn't need to be.

Communicore was probably the only place that got "dated" too quickly, but it seems like it could have easily been upgraded to remain current without sacrificing its integrity. Unfortunately, they didn't go that way.

Honestly, I still love Epcot, but I really miss how it used to be. I love Test Track and Mission Space; they are fun attractions. However, I feel like you don't get as much out of visiting Epcot as you used to. A lot of the education has gone away, and it was really presented in a fun way, so I don't understand why.

As someone mentioned, without a personal connection, you really can't understand the nostalgia.

RBrooksC
10-12-2011, 11:01 AM
Old Epcot was great but as with many things, what we have created in our minds is ALWAYS better than the reality. Everybody looks back upon what was with a misty-eyed fondness.

Mr. Toad is a great example. I loved that ride as a child and I am disappointed it is gone. However, in reality, the ride was rather lame. Blacklight-glowing cardboard cutouts in a rather slow, twisty-track. In my mind, it was fantastic. In reality, Pooh is a far superior ride.

People will always gripe about what was and say, "it isn't what it used to be." Well, I can say this. My son LOVED Epcot as it is today. He is five. It was his favorite park and the one he always wanted to go back and visit.

So, I think the changes they have made has not lessened the appeal of the park, and in many way, has probably increased it.

However, you are always going to have the Horizons people who cry every time they think about it.

Stu29573
10-12-2011, 12:08 PM
I don't think the "appeal" of the park has gone down that much, but the "focus and intent" of the park has taken a serious hit.

I think I get upset about it because I have lived through an extreme example of what happens when a park loses focus. I live just minutes from Six Flags Over Texas (I swear I just heard everyone groan) Anyway, when Six Flags was first opened it had a distinct focus; it was a park based on the six countries whose flags had flown over Texas. There were sections of the park dedicated to each country and time period. Employees in those sections wore appropriate costumes and the attractions were themed to the central idea.

In those days Six Flags also produced ground breaking rides, such as the first log ride, the first mine train coaster, and the cave attraction which many have claimed gave Disney the idea for the Small World boats.

However, Six Flags was sold and investors took over with no regard for the original intent of the park. Suddenly there was... well, you know what it is now. One is hard pressed to find anything of historic relevance, or much having to do with Texas at all. More confusingly, other "Six Flag" parks have opened around the country where the name makes no sense whatsoever.

Do I think this will happen to Disney? No, not really. But I think it serves as a great cautionary tale about what CAN happen if one puts other priorities above "focus."

BrerGnat
10-12-2011, 03:14 PM
Old Epcot was great but as with many things, what we have created in our minds is ALWAYS better than the reality. Everybody looks back upon what was with a misty-eyed fondness.

Mr. Toad is a great example. I loved that ride as a child and I am disappointed it is gone. However, in reality, the ride was rather lame. Blacklight-glowing cardboard cutouts in a rather slow, twisty-track. In my mind, it was fantastic. In reality, Pooh is a far superior ride.


I don't know about that. Mr. Toad still lives on at Disneyland, and I rode it as recently as a few months ago. I still think it's a great ride, and WAY better than Pooh. :mickey:

To each his own. But, I honestly have very vivid and lucid recollections of the old Epcot rides, and they really were pretty cool. The animatronics and scenes were elaborate and well done. They were right up there with Pirates of the Caribbean. Classic, well done, Imagineering at its best.

darthmacho
10-12-2011, 03:14 PM
With the exception of JIYI, and perhaps a little too much Nemo, I think the changes at Epcot have been improvements. I think Test Track, Mission Space, Turtle Talk, and Soarin' are all great additions. I certainly don't miss Body Wars. At the same time, I respect the nostalgia that people have for Horizons and WoM, despite never having seen these attractions myself. I think WDW could use more "dark rides", and I feel those were two examples of that ride genre that are understandably missed.

We may not all agree, but we all seem to have strong opinions about Epcot.

Goes4FastPass
10-12-2011, 03:50 PM
Rides my friends.

I don't need a whole day of thrills but I also don't need a whole day sitting in an omni-mover-whatever and having the movie star narrator sofly intone, "Since the dawn of time...and now, looking to vast expanses of boredom..."

Stu29573
10-12-2011, 04:34 PM
An omni-mover is a "ride".....unless it's broken down...then its kind of a "sit"...but so is a roller coaster....in other words, I don't get it.

azcavalier
10-12-2011, 04:35 PM
Most of these attractions are gone because no one was riding them anymore. They fell into neglect. Partly it was money, and partly it was popularity. Could they have refurbished them and kept them up-to-date? Possibly, but not without sponsors. I think that most of us have no idea what Disney asks for from a sponsor, money-wise.

Looking at Innoventions alone, Disney charged $60K for a "designer's fee". SPonsors would underwrite the construction, projected at $3-$5 million, and would pay almost another $1 million in a "staffing fee", per year. So, just to run a smallish Innoventions area, it costs a sponsor about $8 million for four years. Imagine what an entire pavilion must cost! Especially when you're looking at the square footage, complex technologies for the ride systems, building maintenance, etc. It's no wonder so many sponsors have backed out in the last 10-15 years, with the down economy.

Reading this book "The Epcot Explorer's Encyclopedia" makes me think a sponsor-less Imagination Pavilion is going to close pretty soon. It also makes me wish I could have seen it in it's heyday. The post-ride area sounded awesome.

BrerGnat
10-12-2011, 04:47 PM
Sponsorship fees for the major pavilions at Future World run in the tens of millions PER YEAR. Test Track, as an example, sponsored by GM, was a $100M, 10 year contract.

I know what it takes to keep those things sponsored.

I also know that these big corporations (GM, HP, Kodak, Siemens, Chiquita) have that kind of money. It's part of their advertising budget.

I understand why these pavilions changed. I just liked them the way they used to be, better.

Main Street Jim
10-12-2011, 04:51 PM
While the sets in Horizons and World of Motion were different, and the theming was different...it just looks like Epcot had these three big attractions that were all very similar.Horizons was *totally* different from your "every-day, average Omnimover", if there is such a thing.

It had the "choose your ending". Granted, it was only three choices, but still, the *guest* decided where their "ride" would end - Bravo Centauri, Sea Castle, or Mesa Verde. The destination for each individual ride vehicle was chosen by the majority of riders in that vehicle.

It was the first attraction with the IMAX projector.

The ride system was NOT an "Omnimover" in the typical sense. Sure, two, three, or four people (if I recall) got into a ride vehicle, and it moved along a track. But that was about where the similarity ends.

You traveled - and sat in the ride vehicles - "sideways", instead of facing forward. The ride vehicle hung below the track, allowing for three levels of the ride track. It sort of developed its own "cult following" almost. It was meant to be the sequel to Walt's own Carousel of Progress. No other attraction can claim that. :)


Reading this book "The Epcot Explorer's Encyclopedia" makes me think a sponsor-less Imagination Pavilion is going to close pretty soon. It also makes me wish I could have seen it in it's heyday. The post-ride area sounded awesome.As far as I know, Kodak still sponsors JIIwF. And if you've never seen the original, look it up on YouTube :thumbsup: The original ImageWorks is *still* upstairs, just no "guest access". There's been video of the upstairs ImageWorks taken as recently as last year :mickey:


Mr. Toad is a great example. I loved that ride as a child and I am disappointed it is gone. However, in reality, the ride was rather lame. Blacklight-glowing cardboard cutouts in a rather slow, twisty-track. In my mind, it was fantastic. In reality, Pooh is a far superior ride. I'll take Toad over a load of Pooh *any day* :)

MickeysBestPal
10-12-2011, 04:52 PM
Reading this book "The Epcot Explorer's Encyclopedia" makes me think a sponsor-less Imagination Pavilion is going to close pretty soon.

Disney has chosen to continue to operate formerly sponsored attractions in Epcot and elsewhere without a sponsor.

Major example: Ellen's Energy Adventure has operated sponsor-less for years.
Spaceship Earth ran for many seasons (before Siemens signed on) after GE dropped out as a sponsor.
And, there are many more, not just in Epcot.

OTOH-
For whatever reason, known only to Disney, they decided to drop operating the Wonders of Life Pavilion.
But, (as has been said many time) that it was due directly to non-sponsorship, looks not to be very accurate.

azcavalier
10-12-2011, 07:58 PM
As far as I know, Kodak still sponsors JIIwF. And if you've never seen the original, look it up on YouTube :thumbsup: The original ImageWorks is *still* upstairs, just no "guest access". There's been video of the upstairs ImageWorks taken as recently as last year :mickey:

I'm pretty sure they don't. I seem to remember hearing that they had pulled out, and I remember there not being any Kodak signage last time I was there. I'll be there again in 50 days, and i'll let you know for sure!

I know that they continue to run some pavilions unsponsored. The Norway pavilion isn't actually sponsored by Norway or any group affiliated with Norway. They pulled out a few years back. Disney is running it on their own now, which is why they changed Akershus to a Princess Dining offering. More money that way. It's also why they haven't updated the Norway film that was made in the 80's.

dnickels
10-12-2011, 09:38 PM
I always find the Epcot future world changes topic to be an interesting one and I'll admit I enjoyed the earlier version of Epcot more than I do now. To each their own, but I'll add my two cents...

Every ride in future world used to begin with the origins of the technology, the current state and then it looked to the future possibilities. Instead of the history, current state and future possibilities of 'Motion' we now have a thrill ride ostensibly based on vehicle safety testing. There's nothing about the first crash test dummies or first crash tests, there's nothing about future automobile safety, it's just an excuse to get a few seconds at 60+ mph.

The Living Seas used to include a video about the formation of the oceans, followed by a trip through the Hydrolators to a futuristic sea base. As a kid I actually thought we were going underwater when we went in those things and you had to go through them again to get back out of the base. It was a very immersive (no pun intended) experience. Today, the video is gone, so there's little to no history of the seas outside of a few props in the queue. The history and teaching has been replaced by Nemo. The hydrolators are gone, instead we exit the pavilion through the gift shop.

That to me is the 'downfall' that has occurred in my mind but I also understand that Disney has to appeal to a broader base than just folks like myself so I can't fault them for the changes. Just the way the world is. :twocents:

tiggerbuddy
10-12-2011, 10:26 PM
Agree !!! Agree !!! agree !!!

I agree with what others have said. Epcot was not meant to be a "thrill rides" park, but more educational. Much of the dislike from many is that Epcot has lost focus from what made it so unique.
:thumbsup:

LudwigVonDrake
10-13-2011, 05:57 AM
I have to say that as I get older I appreciate Epcot more and more.

azcavalier
10-13-2011, 07:08 AM
I don't want Epcot to be a thrill rides park, and I love the educational aspect of what's there. Test Track is not very educational, it's true. However, with GM having signed on for another ten years it looks like they'll be replacing Test Track with something else...it's not going to go back to the World of Motion, but maybe it will be more in-line with what many are hoping it is.

I did see the Seas pavilion before it was refurbished to the Seas with Nemo. I like some of the technology in the Nemo ride, but think that the ride itself is lame. I remember the divers coming in and out of the tube/airlock and much of what was there before. I don't mind the Nemo theming that much, but I did like it before. I think that Turtle Talk is awesome....but it all depends on the CM who's playing Crush. The first couple of guys they had were excellent.

cuteduck223
10-13-2011, 10:52 AM
I think that some of the things at the Seas are still great. I like the aquarium feel that you can wander around freely (and the small childrens play area was cool too).

I think part of the problem has become that people don't want to stop and look around, or learn anything. They want to rush out the door and get to "the next ride". Even though dated...i LOVED Wonders of life, and cranium command. I loved being able to walk around and explore things--oh, and the fact that everyone else was rushing out to get on a ride :secret: I'm just as guilty now though. We get off of Test Track and walk straight through to the exit. I have no idea about what the pavillion actually might hold if i stopped to look--and I won't even go NEAR mission:space unless im walking from UoE to TT.

So, i agree. I miss old epcot a lot. But maybe the problem is more in that now we have 4 parks to fit into our schedule, and we can go to the aquarium at home. We don't want to take the time to explore.

our DD14 thought it was her favorite park in January, so, maybe Epcot does still hold a lot of wonder.

Victor Kelly
10-13-2011, 11:24 AM
I guess I will chime in since I visited EPCOT Center just after it opened. I was 8 when we first went. I hated it and thought it was outright boring at times. But I was always content in future world. In fact WoM and Horizons were my favorites. Who can forget Walter Cronkite in SSE? Man he was the best voice for that ride.

I feel that what has replaced Horizons and WoM, and Imagination is very much lacking in how this or that happens, in short it is lacking educational properties. Test Track is basically a buy our cars advertisement. Mission Space, really seems like an advertisement for movie about going to Mars. But it does let you experience G's like an astronaut experiences on lift off. SSE is the only attraction that to me, still educates.

Let me end by saying that while I did not like EPCOT when I was 8, as I grew older I appreciated it more and more. It is fun to be free when you have a new horizon every day. I think the really nostalgic people will understand that last sentence.

Mogie
10-13-2011, 12:31 PM
Though I am one of those who question the loss of the theme of future world.


I agree.
The attractions have gone from visions and predictions of innovation and the future to attractions that corporations are willing to sponsor. And some of the attractions like Energy and Imagination are just played and played and remade poorly.
Maybe its because the future that was predicted when the park opened is here now and a bit different from the original design. Or maybe the park just suffers from not being anything close to what Walt imagined Epcot to be. Who knows. There are spaces and opportunities to add some cool new stuff. It's just a matter of money I guess.

RBrooksC
10-13-2011, 12:46 PM
Rides my friends.

I don't need a whole day of thrills but I also don't need a whole day sitting in an omni-mover-whatever and having the movie star narrator sofly intone, "Since the dawn of time...and now, looking to vast expanses of boredom..."

100% agree. People get an idea stuck in their mind and it will never leave. For them, Epcot, to be educational, needs to be slow, tedious and boring. It needs to be a slow, omnimover ride with animatroics doing something while a narrator reads.

Stu29573
10-13-2011, 02:03 PM
100% agree. People get an idea stuck in their mind and it will never leave. For them, Epcot, to be educational, needs to be slow, tedious and boring. It needs to be a slow, omnimover ride with animatroics doing something while a narrator reads.

Wow. Did you ever actually ride any of the original attractions? "slow, tedious and boring" does not apply to any of them. It was more like "uplifting, entertaining, and inspiring." Three adjectives that do not apply to any current attractions as a set....

BrerGnat
10-13-2011, 02:12 PM
100% agree. People get an idea stuck in their mind and it will never leave. For them, Epcot, to be educational, needs to be slow, tedious and boring. It needs to be a slow, omnimover ride with animatroics doing something while a narrator reads.

Again, I invoke Pirates of the Caribbean. Also, Haunted Mansion. Do you think those rides are slow, tedious, and boring?

I am all for high speed, thrilling rides, but I think the "old Epcot" had a much larger audience base. Those were rides everyone could enjoy. Today, you'd be hard pressed to get my parents and kids (who are very timid) to ride Mission Space OR Test Track. I would have much preferred WoM and Horizons to stick around, so that MY kids could learn about transportation through "boring" animatronics, while the grandparents rode as well. ;)

Jared
10-13-2011, 03:55 PM
Wow. Did you ever actually ride any of the original attractions? "slow, tedious and boring" does not apply to any of them. It was more like "uplifting, entertaining, and inspiring." Three adjectives that do not apply to any current attractions as a set....
Thank you for not saying "educational." I cringe when people try to describe EPCOT Center as "educational."

Anyway, I think EPCOT Center devotees sometimes undervalue Epcot as it currently stands because of their nostalgia. Sure, Future World desperately needs a facelift, and who wouldn't want a few new attractions added to World Showcase? But generally, I think Epcot is in pretty good shape, all things considered. Horizons and World of Motion were wonderful attractions, but Test Track and Mission: SPACE and Soarin' have their place in the current landscape.

Georgesgirl1
10-13-2011, 03:59 PM
Epcot is still my favorite park, so I am certainly not an Epcot basher. I do however like the "old school" future world better. When I was younger, Future World was filled with rides that kids of all ages could ride. Right now, with an almost three year old and an almost one year old, half of future world is attracttions that are kids can't ride. We use rider swap for Soarin, but don't bother for Space or Test Track. I think it says a lot that we completely avoid one whole side of future world!
Also, what is futuristic about Test Track, Soarin, Nemo and Friends, etc? Nothing!

Buttercup
10-13-2011, 05:57 PM
Also, what is futuristic about Test Track, Soarin, Nemo and Friends, etc? Nothing!
:exactly:
I always felt that Future World was supposed to be a more "realistic" version of Tomorrowland, on a much grander scale. So instead of make-believe futuristic stuff at the MK, Future World was actually showing was was coming up in our future, for real.
World of Motion used to have actual life-size futuristic cars at the end of the ride to look at, after you'd just experienced an attraction that showed transportation's history and what led them to these futuristic designs. Nowadays, Test Track just shows you what they're doing now with car safety and the current models of cars we see every day (and really, do people need a demonstration of anti-lock brakes? They're certainly not revolutionary and "new" anymore!). Granted, I enjoy Test Track, but it just seems like it's in the wrong place.
The Innoventions areas (called Communicore back then) actually had futuristic stuff that you could try out -- I remember in the mid-80's they had computers you could do text-to-speech and my sisters & I would spend forever typing stuff in, amazed that a computer could read it aloud.
Stuff like that is what made Epcot special -- it was that you were amazed at what new and incredible stuff people would be experiencing in the future. Now it feels "mish-mashed".


Most of these attractions are gone because no one was riding them anymore. They fell into neglect.
World of Motion was changed to Test Track because there was a greater demand for thrill rides. Disney took that as a request to "replace" old rides, as opposed to "adding" new rides.
Actually Horizons closed not because of low ridership (quite the opposite actually). It was built on a sink-hole and they had to close it because the ride was falling into the ground.

Victor Kelly
10-14-2011, 11:34 AM
If horizons was on a sink hole, why did they build a $100 million attraction on the site again? My short answer is Flordia is not known as the land of a 1000 lakes for no reason. The whole state has lakes that are sink holes. However, building atop a filled in sinkhole would make no sense.

The old Epcot was far more entertaining with the exception (my opinion of course) of Universe of Energy. They can definitely use the WoL pavilion for a new attraction.

But Disney has a precident for letting space and buildings sit idle and use them for "special events". Like Millenium Village, Odyessey Restaurant. Heck even where Mickey's philharmagic now resides, 20k leagues, Tomorrowland terrace, Adventureland veranda, animation studio buildings, Swan Boats, Discovery River boats, Mike fink Keel boats, Rivers of America canoes, sky ride structures(being demolished), etc.

TheHD
10-14-2011, 03:01 PM
About the omni-mover remarks; I don't think they are slow or boring at all. In fact, I often think they are moving too fast and I end up leaving each scene as if I'd missed many details. I always try to look at different details each time through and am still convinced I haven't seen it all.

I did not visit Epcot before 2000, but I do miss the Living Seas how it used to be and after viewing YouTube, I think that WoM and Horizons would be far more enjoyable for me than Test Track, Mission Space, and Soarin'. As others have stated, I do find myself enjoying the more "slow" and "detailed" attractions in my older age. However, I do love Test Track. Not so much Soarin' and Mission Space; however, this is due to my motion sickness issue than anything.

DizHawk
10-14-2011, 03:35 PM
My $0.02.

My wife and I have been vacationing at WDW since our honeymoon in December 1996. I never did see World of Motion, the Universe of Energy has only ever been hosted by Ellen, I rode Horizons a handful of times, and Spaceship Earth has only been narrated by Jeremy Irons and Judi Dench. Given that limited exposure to the "old" Epcot (or EPCOT) you wouldn't think that I would have the nostalgia for what the park used to be. I do.

I guess the easiest way for me to explain why is that rides like Test Track, Mission:Space, JIYIwF, The Seas with Nemo, etc., all mark a destination rather than a journey. Instead of imagining what the future may look like, the attractions are limited to what the present holds now. Test Track is how GM tests cars today. Mission:Space is how we might be able to get to Mars today. The Seas takes you to a destination where Nemo and his friends live, it doesn't put you on a journey to a futuristic SeaBase. Ellen's Energy Adventure does worse, it takes you to the present of 15 years ago. Heck, Alex Trebek still had a mustache, and he hasn't had that since last decade.

Horizons was a journey into the future. It simply transported us to some future date and dropped us into the lives of a family there. World of Motion took us back in time first, then to the future (though I only know that from reading about it and other people's home videos).

I reserve my greatest dislike for Spaceship Earth though. I love Spaceship Earth. Since my first trip it has been my favorite attraction through all of WDW. I'm disheartened by the current iteration in several ways. First, the narration is simply awful. It's not so much Judi Dench, it's the script. I don't know if they were intending for it to sound so rudimentary, but it does. At least the Irons narration was grand and held a sense of awe and wonder to it. The current script is flat, dull, and feels like she's reading a Dick and Jane book. Second, the Irons version took us to the past to provide a prologue to the future. The ascent culminated in what was now, and the descent was focused on what might be. Fortunately for us, but not so much for the attraction, "what might be" became "what was now" and it was outdated. Instead of updating it to whatever the next wave of technology on the horizon might be, we're left with a television show starring our disembodied heads on the descent, with no scenery around us but tiny lights and black background. The centerpiece of Future World is now a monument to the past and present. Can't we do better?

I'm not even taking into account the stone graveyard at the Epcot entrance. Unlike the walking path stones at MK, the Leave a Legacy markers are unavoidable and a visual nuisance.

I still love Epcot. I guess I'm getting older (only 35), but I enjoy walking around World Showcase more than Future World now. Just being around the sights, sounds, and smells of the different countries is fascinating. Maybe it's because I grew up a farm boy who has never lived outside KS, OK, and TX and has never journeyed out of the United States. I'd love to travel to each of countries from World Showcase just to experience them first hand.

I remember as a kid when my grandparents came back from WDW one summer. They had one of the old guidebooks for Epcot (so old that Horizons and The Living Seas hadn't opened yet) and I remember reading through it over and over again. I was fascinated by all this talk of the future and seeing different countries. I don't think Epcot would have been boring back then.

I'll wrap this up by saying that I'm not a fan of thrill rides. I live an hour away from Six Flags Over Texas and never want to go there again. I've been on Mission:Space, Test Track, and Soarin' and they hold no return value for me. With the older dark rides, there was always some detail that was overlooked the last time, something you hadn't seen or heard before. With the thrill rides it all goes by so quickly that it's hard to notice anything new.

Guess that was more than $0.02. Oh well. We all have our own opinions, and I'm sure some will disagree with mine.

EJS-Houston
10-14-2011, 04:48 PM
So, I'm reading "The Epcot Explorer's Encyclopedia", and it describes all of the attractions that have ever been at Epcot, and all the changes that have taken place.

I've got to say, all those of you who claim that Epcot is going downhill, who miss Horizons and World of Motion...I don't see it. Granted, I never experienced those attractions. But from what i've read, they were *very* similar to Spaceship Earth. They used Omni-movers to take you through various scenes filled with animatronics and a narrator explaining the history of travel, or the possibilities of the future.

I'm sure that when they came out, they were interesting to ride on....Spaceship Earth is one of my favorites, even after the refurbs. But the one omnimover ride with audio-animatronics is enough. I like the changes that have been made.

I do wish I could have seen the Wonders of Life pavilion in its heyday.

I did see EPCOT when it first opened, and I have to say, I'm with you! I love EPCOT more now than ever before.

azcavalier
10-16-2011, 02:51 PM
Actually Horizons closed not because of low ridership (quite the opposite actually). It was built on a sink-hole and they had to close it because the ride was falling into the ground.

No, it just no longer had sponsorship, and the building needed lots of repairs (leaks and such). Plus, it was badly in need of an update, and Eisner decided that a total refurb (new Ominmax films, wardrobes, animatronics, etc, etc) was too expensive. So, they closed it in 1999. Four years later, Mission: Space opened.



I'm not even taking into account the stone graveyard at the Epcot entrance. Unlike the walking path stones at MK, the Leave a Legacy markers are unavoidable and a visual nuisance.


How long have the monoliths been there? Eleven years? I believe that Disney has the right to move them somewhere else on WDW property (any time they decide to) or they can simply be removed after the 20th anniversary of installation. I'm betting that it will be the latter. Around nine years from now, they'll just disappear.

kbean
10-19-2011, 06:58 AM
Sounds like you dont appreciate details to a ride. Epcot has taken rides that were 15 mins long and very detailed that you'd spot something new everytime you rode it. To quick thrill rides that dont draw you back to ride a second time . And its do to the fact that the youths of today have an attention span that can be measured in nano seconds.

azcavalier
10-19-2011, 09:21 AM
Sounds like you dont appreciate details to a ride. Epcot has taken rides that were 15 mins long and very detailed that you'd spot something new everytime you rode it. To quick thrill rides that dont draw you back to ride a second time . And its do to the fact that the youths of today have an attention span that can be measured in nano seconds.

No, that's not it at all. I've forever been a champion on Intercot about things like Animal Kingdom being an amazing park, *because* of the details. I love the details. I love how detailed Spaceship Earth is. I started a thread once about how campfires reminded me of the scene in SSE when the Library of Alexandria is destroyed (and that's how I knew I was truly addicted to Disneyworld). I love how in the Haunted Mansion, they have authentic gas lamp mantles pulled over every single light bulb in the attraction to give it a more period feel. I love how the lamps on Main Street move from gas lamps to electric lamps as the technology "evolves" as you walk up the street. I've read every single "Imagineer's Guide" a couple of times, because the details is why I love Walt Disney World.

I just think that no matter how much you dress it up, or stretch it out, Horizons and World of Motion both sound like they were rides with an omnimover (or modified omnimover) which takes you past scenes staged with audio-animatronics and a narrator explaining what you're seeing. And that Disney likes to do that a lot. And i'm glad that there is a bit more variety now in Future World, even if it has lost that "educational feel" that it had. But I admit to never having ridden them. Had I had that opportunity, i'm sure that I would have enjoyed them. But I don't know that I would be lamenting the fact that they were outdated, and therefore, replaced.

Also, i'm almost 40. I'm not from the "microwave generation" that has a short attention span or revels in instant gratification.

After all of this discussion, though, you know what I find that I miss most that has been removed from WDW? The ham and broccoli slaw sandwich that used to be on the menu at Columbia Harbour House.

Bass T-bone
10-19-2011, 10:12 AM
I think the old EPCOT was more like a Worlds Fair... which I like.

It was more about education, which made the park unique... well, back then anyway.