Back To School Rant [Archive]

VWL Mom

09-12-2010, 02:14 PM

Is it just me or does anyone else get this way at the beginning of school?

DS15 is a freshman at MHS and we are spending this dreary day getting everything ready. I already find myself aggravated, not a good way to start.

First, the supply list....$200 later with the economy what it is, why do we need a $100 graphing calculator? Why does each class need their own 2" hard cover notebook @ $9 each?
And I have to ask myself since this is a public school, what about those families that cannot afford it? What happens to them?

Second, the unending forms from each teacher. Why does a bio teacher need to know what DH does for a living? Is my child going to be graded based on income? Now I've signed off on all they expect from my son but where is a place for me to note what I expect from them? Having been through this school with DS18 I could give them a list!

Believe it or not, for the most part I do like the school just not the nonsense that goes with it.

Thanks for letting me vent. I feel better now.

TheVBs

09-12-2010, 02:21 PM

HUGS! :( Sorry the school year is starting out so stressful. I experience some stress but for different reasons.

I know what you mean about that list. I opted to break ours up into several shopping trips to spread out the cost. Ours stressed that it wasn't required, to only buy the items if you could afford it. I'm assuming the school hopes that the families that can buy from the list help decrease the costs for the students they have to buy supplies for.

And, I would definitely suggest writing that list of expectations and sending it to the school! It doesn't have to be a negative or confrontational thing at all. You could present it as outlining some things you've seen as challenges in the past and include suggestions for making things smoother.

Hope your day gets better and I hope the school year goes well for all of you!

SBETigg

09-12-2010, 02:35 PM

My daughter started her senior year last week, and I have to say that while I'm occasionally nostalgic for her youth, I'm ready for this last year and for what comes next. Of course, buying the school supplies only gets more expensive, plus tuition- my son is in college. But yes, I always wonder about the parents who can't really afford it having to try to get together all the stuff. It's enough to get them dressed to face another year, and then there's the whole list of supplies. And endless forms (another thing you don't escape when they head to college- even more forms).

My gripe about the school year is more time-related. How do they expect our kids to have time for everything? Hours of homework, sports, music. They're over-scheduled, I want to say, and yet we've managed to pull it all off year after year somehow. Oh and don't get me started on group projects. Not only having to work out how to do everything on your kid's schedule, you have to add someone else's into the mix. Group projects ought to be the kind that can be completed in class or don't assign them. What a pain. :)

Pirate Granny

09-12-2010, 05:18 PM

Since my children went to catholic school...I really didn't complain about the supplies...just the cost...UGH...BUT group projects...I HATED..both for my children and when I went back to university...SLACKERS...enough said.

PirateLover

09-12-2010, 07:00 PM

Giving a teacher's perspective here...
With supplies, I kind of agree with the graphing calculator. I mean perhaps if you are in advanced or AP classes you would have a real need for it, but I took regular math classes and really didn't use most of the functions on that calculator.

The notebooks... I have to be honest, I'm not even sure what kind of notebook you are referencing but for $9 it must have something special to it? Maybe not. When I taught in high school I preferred kids to have spiral notebooks with pages that ripped out because it was easier than having them lug around separate loose leaf tablets, and ripping pages out of marble copybooks ruins them and just looks sloppy.

As for the forms... the example question you give is pretty personal and I wouldn't ask it, but generally many teachers send home their own info sheets because it's a song and a dance to have to go to the office, get a hold of files for all your students , and get all the personal information together in case we ever need to contact you the parent. It's much easier for parents to take 2 minutes to fill out a form and send it back in so that we can hold onto it.

And the group projects. I try my best to have them done in class. The reason they even exist is because we are pretty much made to do them to have a variety of assessments. I didn't have so much of a problem with them in high school because I went to a private girls' school full of motivated students, but I had some terrible college experiences. I actually got pretty heated with a professor once because he was insinuating it was part of being in a group to get everyone to work together, when I had called this one group mate a bunch of times and emailed him repeatedly with no response, and then he was absent on presentation day. I CAN'T MAKE SOMEONE ANSWER THE PHONE OR SHOW UP!! Anyway, I always tell my students to let me know if someone isn't pulling their weight, and they need to do a self assessment and tell me exactly what they did for the project. Not all students in a group receive the same grade from me.

RedSoxFan

09-12-2010, 07:52 PM

How about how much stuff they have to carry in their backpack? It is ridiculous. DD13 is recovering from a stress fracture in her back and she can't carry her backpack full of books. Her friends help her.

My other pet peeve is teachers assigning HW over the weekends and holiday breaks. Don't the kids deserve a weekend off like adults do from jobs and holiday breaks to spend time with family without carrying the books with them?

BrerGnat

09-12-2010, 09:12 PM

My other pet peeve is teachers assigning HW over the weekends and holiday breaks. Don't the kids deserve a weekend off like adults do from jobs and holiday breaks to spend time with family without carrying the books with them?

Teachers don't get weekends off. They spend them either grading papers, writing the next week's lesson plans, or going into the classroom to do extra prep work there.

I always got homework over weekends. It was MY responsibility to manage my time to get it done, and go to work, and have my personal time. I would always do my homework on Friday afternoons, so I would have all my weekends free. It's just about teaching time management skills, which they will need in college and beyond. TRUST ME, you don't get "weekends off" in college...

Dsnygirl

09-12-2010, 09:54 PM

Boy oh boy do I hear you guys.... not everything commented on applies to us, but some sure does!

Our supply lists this year weren't that bad, thank goodness, as my DD12 needed a graphing calculator for an accelerated math class, and that took any small savings from the lighter supply lists right away!

The one thing that gets me every year is the homework. Not that they have some -- I expect them to, and it's good for them. What I DON'T like is when they come home with stuff to do that wasn't covered in class b/c the teacher couldn't get to it (which I totally understand, things come up and schedules for what needs to be covered have to change) but then they expect the parents to go over it and teach the kids how to do it! We've even had our kids' math teachers send home pamphlets so that the parents can learn how to do the "new math" that is being taught everywhere -- so that we can go over what isn't covered in class. WHAT?? :confused: Not okay with me -- I've been through school, I did my work -- I don't want to spend a couple of hours some nights reading and doing a math pamphlet so I can then try to teach my DD the concepts the teacher couldn't get to. (and they expect the kids to come in knowing it, so they can "move on to the next topic the next day.)

I don't mind helping my girls with their homework -- it's a part of parenting, and we're their teachers, too. My DH and I have both done our fair share of quizzing them for spelling and science tests, guiding them with special projects (and maybe even getting too involved with them b/c it's kinda fun... :blush:) But I sure as heck don't want to have to re-learn my own math skills so I can do it the "new" way, and then have to teach it to my girls b/c there wasn't time in class.

I'm seriously hoping it was just a glitch in my DD's classroom last year that made it happen so much, and that we won't see it happening again this year... they really do go to a wonderful school and we have very few complaints. But for us, this was a big one that I'm hoping has worked it's way out!!

Jared

09-12-2010, 10:09 PM

I always got homework over weekends. It was MY responsibility to manage my time to get it done, and go to work, and have my personal time. I would always do my homework on Friday afternoons, so I would have all my weekends free. It's just about teaching time management skills, which they will need in college and beyond. TRUST ME, you don't get "weekends off" in college...
I agree. I graduated college in May and despised weekend homework, but I recognize why teachers assign it.

A previous poster asked if students deserve a couple days completely off to decompress from the week and spend time with family and friends. Ideally, yes. Practically, no.

School exists to help mold children into multidimensional and successful adults. I realize that the term "successful" means entirely different things to different people, but I expect the desire for professional and social triumphs remains nearly universal.

The world no longer operates on a five-day schedule. I know few, if any, adults I consider "successful" who truly take their weekends "off." They may not go to their offices, just like students do not go to school, but they do something.

To me, weekend homework appropriately simulates adult life. It teaches time management skills and shows kids the importance and necessity of diligence and work ethic. As the post above this one appropriately stated, college requires a seven-day workweek.

So does life.

Oh, I almost forgot. RedSoxFan, I hope your son at Syracuse is well.

Janmac

09-12-2010, 10:45 PM

I hear you on the back to school rant, also. Our youngest grandson (who lives with us) graduated from high school in 2009 and what a joy it was not to have anyone waiting for the bus all last year! Our grandson had an I.E.P. (special needs) and it's amazing how many teachers - some of them relatively young - do not want to realize that an I.E.P. is law. The last two years were especially stressful as the principal was in the "I don't believe in I.E.P.s" camp. My cholesterol went down 20 points after our grandson graduated.

A couple of weeks ago our niece's daughter started kindergarten. She and her daughter live with us so we're in the thick of all the back to school adjusting. And it's only kindergarten. (sigh) :( On the upside, we're pretty sure there won't be any need for special programs.

The big fuss here this year is the free or reduced lunch program. This is a big deal in our school district. They must get a sizeable amount of their funding through this program. The school "requires" everyone to fill out the form. We know we don't qualify and we really don't care to share our financial information with anyone and especially a school office with less than impressively secure files. This seems like such a little thing but you would not believe how they push this.

And pretty soon we're going to start having discussions with the school about family vacation time. We live near a major seasonal tourist area so that's where most of the employment is but that's another rant.

Even with kindergarten supplies as limited and low cost as they are I wondered how struggling families manage as we filled the shopping cart. We live in a rural area with a very small school system (less than a thousand k-12). I doubt there are any of those programs that provide backpacks with supplies.

On the one hand, it's nice to know we can send our kids to school (think of Afghanistan, for example) but it sometimes it feels as tho we give up our kids to a monster of a bureaucracy.

Jan

RedSoxFan

09-13-2010, 06:44 AM

Oh, I almost forgot. RedSoxFan, I hope your son at Syracuse is well.

Jared: Chris is doing very well. He is a reporter/producer at Channel 3/5 in Syracuse and loves it. Last week he gave a tour of the station to a sophomore class from Newhouse.

Hope you are doing well also.

TheVBs

09-13-2010, 08:33 AM

The world no longer operates on a five-day schedule. I know few, if any, adults I consider "successful" who truly take their weekends "off." They may not go to their offices, just like students do not go to school, but they do something.

That's a shame. :( I know several in our town, with my DH topping the list. :cloud9: The weekend and vacations are family time. Not that there aren't occasionally exceptions where he has to work late, work on the weekend or go out of town, but thankfully it's not the norm.:)

And also thankfully, our schools (elementary at least) don't give homework on Fridays because they place a high value on family time as well. Obviously as they get into the higher grades, the work load will increase and they will likely need to devote some weekend time to work. At that point it will be good college prep/life training.

MNNHFLTX

09-13-2010, 10:38 AM

And also thankfully, our schools (elementary at least) don't give homework on Fridays because they place a high value on family time as well. Obviously as they get into the higher grades, the work load will increase and they will likely need to devote some weekend time to work. At that point it will be good college prep/life training.Growing up we almost always had homework over the weekends, from grade school on up, althought not so much over holiday breaks. I guess I never thought that it took away from family time, it was just something we got done and that was that. If I had one complaint when my son was in elementary, middle and high school is that they didn't give enough homework out. I would have preferred that he have even more direction in developing skills and knowledge in preparing them for advanced studies. So while I think it's not good for kids to be over-tasked, sometimes I think they need to pull back a bit from other extra-cirricular activies, not necessarily school work.

To the OP, about the cost/number of supplies--I can relate. I think we bought the same graphing calculator you mentioned for my son for his freshman year in college. I can't imagine why they would require it in high school when so many parents have no way of funding that type of purchase.

TheVBs

09-13-2010, 11:39 AM

Growing up we almost always had homework over the weekends, from grade school on up, althought not so much over holiday breaks. I guess I never thought that it took away from family time, it was just something we got done and that was that. If I had one complaint when my son was in elementary, middle and high school is that they didn't give enough homework out. I would have preferred that he have even more direction in developing skills and knowledge in preparing them for advanced studies. So while I think it's not good for kids to be over-tasked, sometimes I think they need to pull back a bit from other extra-cirricular activies, not necessarily school work.

Chances are we as parents are far more conscious of what we think constitues family time than the kids are. And if/when homework starts getting assigned over weekends or breaks, we will have the same attitude, it's just something that needs to get done. Thankfully, I don't think our kids are short on homework or in school work, based upon the strides they've made. And I agree with not over-tasking on extra-curricular activities. Our girls have one activity each and they get to keep them as long as it doesn't interfere with their school performance. Granted, they're little, and as they get older we'd be willing to let them do more under the same conditions.

I agree with the OP on the paperwork issue! School only started here on the 7th and I already have a pile of flyers, teacher notes, PTO notes, schoolwork, etc.! :( I'm dreading getting organized. :blush:

NewDVCowner

09-13-2010, 02:26 PM

I just wanted to make a comment about the homework load. Both of my parents were teachers and my sister is a middle school science teacher. My sister has figured out that the amount of time she is paid to be at school and the number of students in her she's paid to spend less than ten seconds per student per day. She is at the school long after the time she is required to be there and spends a lot of her weekends working on grading papers and getting ready for the upcoming weeks lessons. Not to mention the amount of money that she's spending out of pocket on the classroom supplies.

Her districts is also adding new things that she is required to teach every year. Her year is already filled up with the standards that she's required to teach and this year they've added an entire month worth of work that she is, again, required to teach. She litterally doesn't have time, even if the class is on schedule (which is saying nothing of the classes that may fall behind) to teach everything that the students need to learn. That very well could be a reason behind the extra homework.

Janmac

09-13-2010, 04:14 PM

Regarding the homework load, there are many parents in our local school system who are incensed when even a little homework goes home, even during the week. Their thinking is that the school is where the learning occurs.

I think that homework, and reports which I hated to write when I was in school, are great ways to get students used to managing their time. As a student I never, if I could possibly get away with it, worked on a report until the very last minute, and then only enough to get by. As an adult, tho, I have - magically? - somehow acquired the ethic of turning out the required work without waiting til the last minute.

Reading some of the posts about how overwhelmed teachers are with paper work and teaching requirements, I'm wondering is anyone happy with the current situation?

Since Missouri went to standardized testing from 3rd grade on, most of the teachers are frustrated with having to "teach the test" which they don't want to do, but have learned they must, if enough students are to achieve adequate scores. So much depends on those test scores. They also feel that they are no longer teaching students, and are especially unhappy at having to abandon units that they worked hard on creating, that they felt were successful at promoting understanding of the subject matter for their students.

I don't know how we "fix" this but it certainly seems that everyone is unhappy in many ways.

Jan

VWL Mom

09-14-2010, 08:20 AM

Thanks for all the responses, good to know I'm not alone.

Sherri. I do have a college frosh so I hear what you say about those costs. Ordering books was a real jaw dropper :jaw:

PirateLover, I think you're my new teacher hero from spiral notebooks to in class projects. Morristown pays very well if your looking for a new job.:thumbsup:

Janmac, this is his first year without an IEP. I always made him carry copies with him to hand out to teachers that either didn't have or didn't follow it.

I don't appreciate homework over breaks either: you don't want me to cut into "your time" then don't cut into "my time". If they have to work weekends or over vacations as adults then it will be their choice and they will be getting paid for it.

Group projects outside of school don't work at the HS level. These kids are so spread out trying to get the perfect resume for the perfect college that it is near impossible to get 2 of them let alone 4-5 of them together.

Regarding their time in general I guess I'm from the old school of thought where well rounded children become well rounded adults. IMO, needs to be about balance between school, family, play, etc.

RedSoxFan

09-14-2010, 09:51 AM

VWL Mom: Agree with everything you said!! Family time is important.

As for college books; look into renting them. It can save you LOTS of money.
Send me a PM and I'll give you a great website my boys use. They are great and it's so easy.

Ian

09-14-2010, 10:04 AM

Regarding their time in general I guess I'm from the old school of thought where well rounded children become well rounded adults. IMO, needs to be about balance between school, family, play, etc.Totally agree. And I think what you're seeing with our well-publicized failures to adequately educate our children bears that out.

While I fully believe that classroom education is important, I do not believe it is the be-all/end-all of a child's development. Spending time with family and friends in a loving, supporting, and nurturing environment is as if not more important, IMO.

That's why I never hesitate to pull DS out of school for short family vacations and things like that. I personally think there's a dramatic over-emphasis on classroom education these days.

And again ... just so I don't get flamed too badly ... I'm not implying that school isn't important. It is. I just think it's an important component of developing a well-rounded, intelligent, self-sufficient child. It is not, however, the biggest component (again, IMO).

But I do feel like there's some solid evidence to back me up.

princessgirls

09-14-2010, 11:29 AM

Since my girls have been back at school on September 1, it's been non-stop flurry of forms, papers, and money for lunches, pictures, field trips.

I am a TRUE believer in BALANCE!! School, dance, sports, church activities and down time for us. We work hard and play hard in my house...

I also am a Firm believer that the greatest gift we can give our children growing up is Family Time. I have no qualms about taking my kids out of school. I took them out on Friday to spend some time with family who was at the beach. My Mom was there with all her grandchildren playing on the beach, making memories with ALL of them. We made up all of our work on Sunday.
I don't do it often, my girls both got perfect attendance in 2008, but lately I see that when opportunity presents we must take it.
Cherish Today!
Julie:mickey:

alphamommy

09-14-2010, 11:30 AM

Our school district offers a "School Tool Kit" that can be purchased in the spring for the following year. It includes everything required for the next grade, and is waiting in the classroom on the first day of school. We've bought that for the last 4 years.

With regard to the costs of supplies that are required, our district has changed music instruction policy to decrease costs. DD is in 5th grade, and as of this year, all 5th graders are required to participate in band or orchestra. Instruments are available for rental from various local stores, but depending on the instrument you choose, the monthly price could be difficult for some families to fit into their budgets. We didn't find this out until last week when school started.

It's not a problem for us, but I'd hate to see a child have to pick their instrument based on finances alone!

Ian

09-14-2010, 12:47 PM

thrillme

09-14-2010, 01:30 PM

I have to agree. Too much homework, too much money (yes I HAD to buy the $120 calculator and YES my DS is in AP math). The rest of the stuff...I just waited till he came and told me what he REALLY needed. I found a lot of the stuff he had in previous years sufficed. To top it off our property taxes are ridiculously high...for that price free lunch should be available to all.

I'm sorry if teachers need to take work home...that they don't get weekends (I know a lot of teachers who regularly get weekends..) BUT we ALL have to work weekends sometimes regardless of your field.

I just think when they're "kids" they deserve to have a "balance". When they move into college and/or their chosen profession...THEN they are getting paid to do what the must (regardless of whether it's a lot or a little they're still getting a paycheck). I just don't think they need homework ALL the time.

The thing I'm tired of is the multitudes of paper I have to sign and send in. I have to do the SAME thing over and over every year. That gets tiresome.

Tygger7

09-14-2010, 02:41 PM

MNNHFLTX

09-14-2010, 04:20 PM

Ian

09-14-2010, 04:26 PM

Just a question for those of you who do not like the amount of homework assigned to your child or that it's assigned on weekends/holidays--do your kids actually have a lot of quality family time or make good use of their "down"time? I ask because a lot of parents I know that work honestly don't have the time or take the time to spend the evenings or weekends with their children. And what spare time the kids do have is either spent going from one activity to the next (sports, dance, etc.) or doing fairly mindless activities (texting friends, video games, etc.) That's why I sometimes think school work is not as valued as it should be. It also seems to me that kids have less time in school (one hour less than when I went to grade school) and more things to cover.I can only speak for our family ... and also keep in mind I have one DD in 3rd grade so we're not at the dreaded teenage years yet ...

Most definitely. We spend almost all of our free time on weekends together as a family. We try to do little things once a month like go to a Phillies game or to the zoo and bigger things once a quarter or so.

We all very much value family together time and make the absolute most of it when we can. Even most weeknights we typically spend together ... dinner, then maybe some play time, and then unwinding by watching a little T.V. together before bedtime. DW and I work hard to find shows that the entire family can watch together.

Georgesgirl1

09-14-2010, 06:52 PM

When I taught 2nd grade, I never assigned homework on Fridays or Wednesdays (church night). I had several parents complain that I didn't give enough homeowrk. As a teacher, you just can't win!
Now, as a pre-k teacher, I sometimes send family projects home on Fridays, but they have until the next Thursday to finish them.

Jared

09-14-2010, 07:30 PM

Totally agree. And I think what you're seeing with our well-publicized failures to adequately educate our children bears that out.

While I fully believe that classroom education is important, I do not believe it is the be-all/end-all of a child's development. Spending time with family and friends in a loving, supporting, and nurturing environment is as if not more important, IMO.

That's why I never hesitate to pull DS out of school for short family vacations and things like that. I personally think there's a dramatic over-emphasis on classroom education these days.

And again ... just so I don't get flamed too badly ... I'm not implying that school isn't important. It is. I just think it's an important component of developing a well-rounded, intelligent, self-sufficient child. It is not, however, the biggest component (again, IMO).

But I do feel like there's some solid evidence to back me up.
Ian, I generally agree with everything you said and always respect your opinions on these issues. Everything I know about you suggests you take fatherhood seriously and raise a wonderfully healthy family.

But, and please correct me if necessary, I argue that you need to wait until your children a grow a bit older before downplaying the benefits of classroom education. Especially when it comes to the always-controversial issue of taking a child out of school for vacation, a lot changes once they hit high school. Again, if you have a high-school aged child now, I apologize for my error. For whatever reason, I thought you had grade-school kids.

I consider myself a product of classroom education, and I make that claim with pride. I grew up in a suburb of New York in a district with an acclaimed public high school filled with snobs and overachievers. People thought less of my family for taking us out of school during the half-day before a holiday break. I love my family for standing up for their values, and I wish everyone in the world enjoyed a family life like mine.

But I loved high school and attribute a lot of my early success in life -- and I mean all elements of life, not just academic -- to my teachers and mentors there. During a typical week, I spent countless more hours in that building than at home. At least for me, both school and my family contributed a near-equal amount to my development. I needed both influences to become the person I am today, and the person I hope to become in the future.

Sorry for the long-winded response. Reminiscing about high school brings back pleasant memories.

BrerGnat

09-14-2010, 09:32 PM

I consider myself a product of classroom education, and I make that claim with pride. I grew up in a suburb of New York in a district with an acclaimed public high school filled with snobs and overachievers. People thought less of my family for taking us out of school during the half-day before a holiday break. I love my family for standing up for their values, and I wish everyone in the world enjoyed a family life like mine.

But I loved high school and attribute a lot of my early success in life -- and I mean all elements of life, not just academic -- to my teachers and mentors there. During a typical week, I spent countless more hours in that building than at home. At least for me, both school and my family contributed a near-equal amount to my development. I needed both influences to become the person I am today, and the person I hope to become in the future.

Sorry for the long-winded response. Reminiscing about high school brings back pleasant memories.

Jared, you sound a lot like my husband. He was like that in High School too. VERY involved there. His mom tells me often that she NEVER saw him during his HS years. He thoroughly enjoyed being at school, would go early in the morning and stay late every day. He was active in Student Council and lots of sports (one every season).

It's not a stretch to say that his success as a military officer is due, in LARGE part, to what he learned those four years in H.S., and the experiences he had, with his peers, teachers, and coaches there. He is able to relate to people in a way that makes him liked and admired by everyone who meets him.

I can tell you with 100% honesty, after getting to know his family over the past 12 years, if he had spent a lot of "quality family time" with his parents and brother and sister during those formative years, he would be just like them! Which is to say, completely co-dependent, immature, and likely, would have gotten into a lot of trouble with the law, as he grew up in a very poor neighborhood, and many of his "friends" were usually up to no good. His brother has made nothing of himself...still lives at home at 23 and is working in a supermarket. His sister is a similar story...has never held down a job longer than 6 months, and calls her mother about once every 5 minutes for "help" with something. HIs mother is very sweet, but she is also very "smothering" with her children, and still babies them. I'm glad my husband was able to find an outlet (school) where he spent the majority of his time during his teenage years. He learned a lot of independence there...

Personally, our kids really thrive in school. They appreciate the structure, routine, and order of things there. It's very difficult to keep our home running that way. Their overall behavior is actually better during the school year. Breaks are our worst enemy. Our kids get SO bored because it is difficult for me to find things to keep them mentally stimulated and entertained all day, every day. School is my favorite place for my kids to be, when they are not in their beds sleeping. ;) I jest, mostly, but the truth is, school has done wonders for my boys, and I have a VERY hard time taking them OUT of school for vacations or anything else. They actually get upset when they don't "get" to go to school on a day they should...

dnickels

09-14-2010, 10:09 PM

Just a question for those of you who do not like the amount of homework assigned to your child or that it's assigned on weekends/holidays--do your kids actually have a lot of quality family time or make good use of their "down"time? I ask because a lot of parents I know that work honestly don't have the time or take the time to spend the evenings or weekends with their children. And what spare time the kids do have is either spent going from one activity to the next (sports, dance, etc.) or doing fairly mindless activities (texting friends, video games, etc.) That's why I sometimes think school work is not as valued as it should be. It also seems to me that kids have less time in school (one hour less than when I went to grade school) and more things to cover.

Oh come on, it's the internet, you already know the answers. ;)
-on the internet everyone's child is either in AP classes or they're very advanced for their age
-on the internet everyone's child does extremely well no matter whether they miss 0 days a year or miss 14 days a quarter for vacation
-on the internet every family maintains a perfect balance between work / school and family life
-on the internet it's only other families who consider quality time sitting around the tv
-heck on the internet all 100% of us are even good drivers, unlike everyone else on the road. :thumbsup:

I think you have a good point, I never see anyone admit that their family evenings are generally spent sitting around the television. When I go out for bike rides in the evenings I don't see many families out spending quality time playing catch or going for a walk, I see the light from television screens through the windows. If we could get an honest breakdown of the actual 'family time' that everyone is clamoring for, I think we'd find a lot more of the mindless stuff (television watching and internet surfing for example) than any of us care to admit.

Janmac

09-14-2010, 11:23 PM

Had to laugh at your post, dnickels, because that's how I feel about the Christmas letters and all the perfect stuff in them. :ack: Makes me want to write parodies.

However, our youngest granddaughter is one of those kids who does everything in school - she's a senior this year - and has never gotten anything less than an A ever in school, but she has also, even in high school, had time away from class for family events. As others have said on this thread, it's about balance, and family is important.

Even with all our granddaughter's school achievements and good grades, she feels most of what she's learned has come from outside the classroom.

Regarding sitting around watching tv in the evenings, our grandson - the one with the I.E.P. - graduated from high school reading at a 5th grade level. He read on a first grade level until he got to sixth grade. Yet he has a huge amount of general knowledge. And where did he get that? Television. And traveling around the country with his grandparents. But mostly television.

Schools can really help, especially when family can't provide much. What gets annoying is when schools think they are the only ones teaching the kids. Learning is what's important and it can come in lots of different ways.

Jan

Ian

09-16-2010, 09:17 AM

But, and please correct me if necessary, I argue that you need to wait until your children a grow a bit older before downplaying the benefits of classroom education. Especially when it comes to the always-controversial issue of taking a child out of school for vacation, a lot changes once they hit high school. Again, if you have a high-school aged child now, I apologize for my error. For whatever reason, I thought you had grade-school kids.You're correct, Jared. DD is 8 and in 3rd grade. And I will say that, as she ages, I definitely recognize that emphasis on classroom education needs to increase.

But keep in mind that, by then, she's not really a kid anymore. She's a young adult and (hopefully) she's formed into the person that we want her to become. It's during the formative years where I really think the balance comes into play. As you age, you need to start to take things more seriously.

brivers222

09-16-2010, 03:39 PM

My other pet peeve is teachers assigning HW over the weekends and holiday breaks. Don't the kids deserve a weekend off like adults do from jobs and holiday breaks to spend time with family without carrying the books with them?

I call that break the three months from June till September as their quality time off.

Man i wish those days were back when you would get all that time off in a row!

Ian

09-19-2010, 11:02 AM

I call that break the three months from June till September as their quality time off.Unless your already well-compensated teachers decide to go on strike, of course ... my DD lost most of her summer making up time she lost because her teachers refused to report and do their jobs.

But, of course, all they really care about is the children.

BrerGnat

09-19-2010, 11:31 AM

Unless your already well-compensated teachers decide to go on strike, of course ... my DD lost most of her summer making up time she lost because her teachers refused to report and do their jobs.

But, of course, all they really care about is the children.

Be careful generalizing. Those strikes are something that the UNION decides to do. Teachers sort of HAVE to join the union, and then they have to go along with what the union decides, even if they disagree with it. :( It's a tricky situation for teachers who really DO care about the students, and would rather be working doing their job than picketing...

My sister had this happen to her one year here in CA. She HATED the entire scenario. And, she felt awful for the kids. :(

Unions need to be done away with, I think. Particularly in regards to Teachers Unions...

Hammer

09-19-2010, 12:40 PM

Can't we stop the anti-union rhetoric, especially teachers' unions :bang:? Do some unions not work for their membership? Of course, but I think there are a lot more non-union jobs were the companies take advantage of the work force and these workers do not have much recourse, since HR is part of the corporation.

The decision on if unions are useful should be taken on a case by case basis, not a generalization that unions should be done away with. I'll give you an example of the good a union can do, since people are so quick to point out the negative.

My mother worked as a remedial teacher in the both elementary and high school levels. For the first 5-7 years she held this job in NJ, she was paid an hourly rate, well below what other teachers made. This is because remedial education is governed by a different department in NJ and was therefore not covered by the union. Mind you, remedial teachers (as well as Speech teachers) must meet the exact same certification requirements as regular classroom teachers, if not more certifications, but the State thought it was just fine to pay them at a lesser rate. So these teachers petitioned and joined the union (based by county, which is how remedial education is covered, rather than township) and started negotiations with the County board to be salaried and have a pay scale. It took over 3 years to get this corrected, but remedial and speech teachers are now salaried and start at the same minimum pay. The union wasn't dumb, there was no strike and the pay scale is much smaller than a township teacher, but the negotiators knew which battles to fight. When my mother retired, she was at the top of the pay scale and made less than $50,000 with over 30 years of teaching experience.

And if you think that management was going to just give the teachers a fair shake without the union, think again. My mother, who was the second president of the union, was told by more than 1 board member that these women don't need to be salaried, they are only working for lipstick and pantyhose money :rolleyes:. By the way, this happened in the 1990's, not some bygone Mad Men time.

Scar

09-19-2010, 01:11 PM

I hate how the traffic seemingly doubles this time of year.
So these teachers petitioned and joined the union (based by county, which is how remedial education is covered, rather than township) and started negotiations with the County board to be salaried and have a pay scale. That's odd. My mother was a teacher's aide (no certification) and later a sectetary for the BoE, and she is NJEA. :confused:

Lakin

09-19-2010, 03:04 PM

Sorry about your sad start to the school year. I have to agree with you on these points.

This year, I am a Freshman at my school, and though I have not had to buy a $100 graphing calculator or ridiculous things as such, I know what you mean when you say it's too much. What's sad is that a lot of the supplies teachers ask you to buy for your kids are rarely used. You know when teachers ask you to buy binders? Very few actually use them as anything more than a folder.

And I'm glad my teachers are not the only ones that send home excessive papers at the beginning of the school year. But, wait a minute, yours ask for what your husband does for a living? Isn't that a bit of an invasion of personal privacy? Jeez. I mean, it's probably not a big deal if they know but why is it any of their business? My teachers always send home papers that your parents have to sign that say you agree to all of their rules. What in the world is the point? Parents sign papers during registration that say they agree to all of the rules, why do we have to sign to individual teacher's rules?

Dulcee

09-19-2010, 05:03 PM

Oof I feel for you.

I've gone through high school, undergraduate and now graduate level college and I will forewarn it never gets easier or cheaper.

My senior year of college one semester worth of books came in a $1000. All required texts for a college that already rang in at 52K a year.

And then enter graduate school where I'm required to live on the fixed budget they give and then get hit with a $50 transcript fee, $300 health center fee (when we have provided health insurance) and another $600 on a semester's worth of books.

Best of luck! Consider yourself one of the fortunate ones who was able to swing it for your kid.

Hammer

09-19-2010, 08:48 PM

That's odd. My mother was a teacher's aide (no certification) and later a secretary for the BoE, and she is NJEA. :confused:

It was one of those loopholes because their positions are hired by the county and not the township, so they weren't able to join a specific township chapter. By creating these chapters (one per county) it closed the loophole for teaching positions which are county hired.

ElenitaB

09-20-2010, 12:11 AM

I call that break the three months from June till September as their quality time off.
Um, unless you're striving to improve earn a Masters or Ph.D. during those months.

Even when I taught college as I was working on my Ph.D., I saw that my future "summers off" were filled with writing articles in the hopes that they would get published because in many parts of academia, it's "publish or perish."

My DS is a high school freshman this year. His elementary/middle school (it was a PreK-8 school) was wonderful and provided what I thought was a great foundation for him. We were allowed to take the kids out for vacation trips (until they hit 7th grade when the absences are noted on their transcripts) and homework was never assigned on weekends. This past week has been very difficult for him... there is tons of homework to be done every night (literally, one night it was 1:30 when he finally finished). I won't even go into the textbooks I've had to buy (it's a private school and only some of the textbooks are supplied by the state) and yes, the famous calculator ... still sitting in its package. But I know that in a few weeks, the discipline and demands of his new school will become routine. For now though, there are rumblings and grumblings. Saturday was Freshmen Parent Orientation and even I walked out of there feeling slightly inadequate. :blush: And I have every confidence that four years from now, all the sacrifice and hard work will have paid off. "Keep moving forward..."

On a separate note, I always wondered why I was asked what I do for a living and where I worked... in high school I can see it though, as it provides a way for the kids and the school alumni to network with people in what could be their chosen profession.

Ian

09-20-2010, 08:36 AM

Um, unless you're striving to improve earn a Masters or Ph.D. during those months.I'm fairly certain the OP was talking about kids having the summers off, not the teachers.

brivers222

09-20-2010, 12:10 PM

Um, unless you're striving to improve earn a Masters or Ph.D. during those months.

I didn't know we were talking about a bunch of "doogies" on here... I was thrown off with the school supplies like pens and pencils and graphing calculators.

I apologize... yes if your a 10 year old improving on your masters degree by all means, you get weekends offs :thumbsup:

Even so, if you are going to further your education past the mandatory k-12 you do make the choice to lose your summer vacations... I understand why you would want to, but at the same time it is a choice to lose it. Granted getting a full time job will also render your summer vacas useless for the most part.

What the person said below you (above me) is correct for my comment...

I'm fairly certain the OP was talking about kids having the summers off, not the teachers.
I was commenting on how people want the kiddies to have weekends off... when in fact they get 3 whole months off each year. In the real world they will be lucky to get even weekends offs as it is...

Its all good though, I know the point you are making... just it was taking my comment out of context of the OP

Ian

09-20-2010, 02:33 PM

I was commenting on how people want the kiddies to have weekends off... when in fact they get 3 whole months off each year. In the real world they will be lucky to get even weekends offs as it is...Yeah, but do we really want our 5-10 year olds worrying about what life is like "in the real world???"

I know I don't. I want my kids to have time (lots of it, preferably) to be kids. There's far too much time in life spent in "the real world."

brivers222

09-20-2010, 03:54 PM

Yeah, but do we really want our 5-10 year olds worrying about what life is like "in the real world???"

I know I don't. I want my kids to have time (lots of it, preferably) to be kids. There's far too much time in life spent in "the real world."

I understand what you are saying, but seriously having homework each night and then some homework on the weekend is what you do to get to your summer vacation. Its like a right of passage through school.

I know back when i was in grade school, you busted your little tush (i miss the days with a little tush lol) day in and day out... then that final day of school for the year was a well anticipated release of excitement.

But then again, back then we really didn't have to worry about our 13year olds dealing with "adult issues" and having to go on birth control or whatever... so something has seriously changed for the worse.

Ian

09-20-2010, 04:17 PM

Janmac

09-20-2010, 10:48 PM

I'm a little older than Ian, so I don't even have that memory - nightly homework - of high school. There was some homework but not hours every night.

I do not recall homework in elementary and I do recall being out for the summer the first week of May and returning to school - reluctantly - after Labor Day.

This was before standardized testing and before the "scores" on the tests started dropping. And the school year started getting longer. And homework was assigned.

And so many papers got sent home. I do remember my brother having a note pinned to his shirt to make sure his teacher saw it.

I also remember many school supplies being provided by the schools but this was years before even simple calculators. I suppose a student had to provide his own slide rule.

Jan

VWL Mom

09-21-2010, 07:18 AM

I suppose a student had to provide his own slide rule.

Jan

Yes, we did, and for some bizarre reason I still have the one I bought at Peerless Stationery in 1970 :D

Jared

09-21-2010, 08:50 AM

I definitely don't have that memory of grade school. In fact, I barely remember getting much in the way of homework back then. Maybe a math sheet to fill out and I know we'd get the occasional project to do, but definitely nothing on the scale of what DD gets in 3rd grade.

I obviously expect that to evolve as time goes by ... it just seems to me that loading an 8 year old up with homework is a tad misguided.
I agree, Ian. In my old district, teachers can assign 30 minutes of reading each night for homework, but nothing else until the third grade. The workload starts to pick up in middle school, which leads to even more work in high school.

Elementary school students and massive amounts of homework doesn't jive with me.

Janmac

09-21-2010, 11:12 PM

VWLMom - talking about dinosaurs, I still have my pinking shears from 1967 or 68 (who remembers?). Something else to add to the stuff that's not on the back to school lists nowadays.

Jan

ElenitaB

09-22-2010, 10:24 PM

Sorry for missing the context of the comment I took out of context. :blush:

Janmac, do they even teach sewing anymore in school? Is there anything like Home Ec on the curriiculum?

RedSoxFan

09-23-2010, 01:29 PM

My daughter had sewing in 5th grade (she's in 8th). She had to make a pillow. That was 1 qtr. Another qtr was for cooking.

Georgesgirl1

09-23-2010, 02:57 PM

Unless your already well-compensated teachers decide to go on strike, of course ... my DD lost most of her summer making up time she lost because her teachers refused to report and do their jobs.

But, of course, all they really care about is the children.

In many states (Georgia included), the teacher's unions cannot go on strike. I am actually glad that this is the case b/c I wouldn't want to be told that I have to go on strike, b/c I really do care about the children! Of course, we also don't get compensated as well as in the northern states either.

Ian

09-23-2010, 03:25 PM

In many states (Georgia included), the teacher's unions cannot go on strike. I am actually glad that this is the case b/c I wouldn't want to be told that I have to go on strike, b/c I really do care about the children! Of course, we also don't get compensated as well as in the northern states either.That's the thing ... our teacher's are compensated what I think is very fairly.

The average teacher's salary in our district is $70,000 per year. For someone who only works 9 months out of the year, that equates to a functional yearly salary of nearly $94,000.

Hammer

09-23-2010, 03:44 PM

That's the thing ... our teacher's are compensated what I think is very fairly.

The average teacher's salary in our district is $70,000 per year. For someone who only works 9 months out of the year, that equates to a functional yearly salary of nearly $94,000.

But Ian, the same is not true of all districts. If I remember were you live, you live in an affluent district in PA. I live in an affluent district in NJ where the teachers are paid well. If I go to a district just down Rt. 73, their teacher median salary is almost $25,000 less than my township. In NJ, the only thing that is uniform is the entry salary for a 1st year teacher must be a certain amount (I'm not sure what that is anymore since Mom retired 6 years ago).

Ian

09-23-2010, 04:26 PM

But Ian, the same is not true of all districts. If I remember were you live, you live in an affluent district in PA. I live in an affluent district in NJ where the teachers are paid well. If I go to a district just down Rt. 73, their teacher median salary is almost $25,000 less than my township. In NJ, the only thing that is uniform is the entry salary for a 1st year teacher must be a certain amount (I'm not sure what that is anymore since Mom retired 6 years ago).Yep ... totally get that our district is well-paid, Christine. In fact, that was my entire point.

The teachers in our district are extremely well compensated for what they do. That's precisely why I found them choosing to go on strike, in the middle of the worst economic crisis this country has seen in a hundred years, extraordinarily distasteful and alienating.

Hammer

09-23-2010, 05:13 PM

Yep ... totally get that our district is well-paid, Christine. In fact, that was my entire point.

The teachers in our district are extremely well compensated for what they do. That's precisely why I found them choosing to go on strike, in the middle of the worst economic crisis this country has seen in a hundred years, extraordinarily distasteful and alienating.

While I disagree with your assessment that the economy is in worse shape than during the great depression (though I'm sure there are some economists which may say that, as I contend that the electronic media works to push their own agenda), I agree with you about well paid school districts striking. I've lived in my district for 10 years and never have I heard of a strike by these teachers, and they are paid on par with your teachers. Just proves my point that it is a case by case situation.

pink

09-23-2010, 08:47 PM

I started school at the end of August (I am a second semester Junior) and it is hard for me right now.

I have advisors and teachers setting mandatory meetings outside of the scheduled class time and which always seem to happen when I have work. When I ask if I could just get a briefing of what occured they tell me I need to be at the meeting no matter what even though I have a job. They tell me that school is more important than my job and yet, I couldn't pay to go to school if I can't go to work!

My job is not good about giving me days off and I don't think I should have to just because the school doesn't want to help me out. It's stressful.

I literally wake up at 8 am every day, go to school until 3:30. Go to work from 4-9 and then stay up until 2-3 am every night just trying to keep up with my homework. I also work on the weekends so I usually have one weekend day off a week and that day is spent running errands, doing laundry, cleaning up, etc. I guess I'm an adult now.

People say college is fun but to me, it is really not seeming that way. There is no time for fun. :(