Having doubts about owning DVC

[locutus]

I know many of you have had the DVC for a long time. I myself have been a member for 5 years now and am having some real second thoughts about it. What once seemed like a good move no longer seems that. I just arrived from Disney and while there spoke to a lot of people down there. I spoke to a couple people with families who were there and the topic of DVC was brought up ( by them asking if I was a member and if I would recomend it). At first I said I loved it but after talking to them started having second thoughts. I paid $1400 in member fees this year. On this trip I also paid $611 for the dining plan for 6 nights ( 2 adults 2 kid ). One guy said he bought a package with Disney for 7 nights, 2 adults, 3 kids, WITH the dining plan included and and paid $1625. I now ask whats the benifits of being a member when non members can get rooms and they throw in dining for free, and as members we pay a premium of maint. fees and have to pay ourselves for dining ( or admission tickets depending on what Disney promotion is running). I would love to get some opinions from you on why I (or we ) should still stay members. After paying $25000 for my points and such high maint. fees I cant see the benifits on staying a member, when non members can just buy packages that include such perks for almost what im paying yearly in fees. Thank you.

[MidnTPK]

I'm not yet a DVC member (likely will be eventually) but I own a timeshare at Atlantis in the Bahamas, so I know where you're coming from. I often see discounts there that look good and I can't take advantage of them. But when I look deeper, I see that I'm still getting a fair deal.

Anyway I doubt 'one guy's' numbers are accurate. I've been pricing WDW vacations all spring and summer, and it never got that cheap. He must be leaving out park tickets or the actual room cost.

Here's a way to think about it: Assume Disney NEVER discount park tickets....yes there are little things they do like AAA or the DVC AP discount, but those things are minor. Also assume Disney NEVER discounts the dining plan. Whether you are DVC or a regular guest, it's a set amount per night.

What they actually do is offer discounts on hotel rooms, hiding the discount as 'free dining' or 'buy 4 get 3'.

Why are these sound assumptions? I've traveled several times in the past few years during free dining. Each year there's been a free dining offer, there's also been a room only discount offered for the same time. And guess what: if you do the math, you see that the room-only discount plus the full fare dining plan works out to be around the same price as getting a room at the undiscounted rack rate and having the dining plan thrown in for 'free' (if you have 4 or 5 in the room, the free dining gets to be a bit better of a discount than room only).

Ok...that's one half of the equation.

The other half is that you are comparing apples to oranges.

A DVC villa is not a value resort room. It's much nicer and luxurious. It's much more comparable to a suite at a deluxe. And believe me, the discounts are not as big as 'that guy' for accommodations like that. The discounted nightly rates at the deluxe are still well above $225 a night for this fall, even with all the discounts. And suite rates are well above $350 a night.

Based on your maintenance fee, I'm guessing you have between 250 and 350 points, and either stayed for a long time in a studio or in a larger accommodation for 7 nights. Assuming you'll own for 50 years, you paid $500 for this week when you bought into the DVC. You paid another $1400 for this year's maintenance. That works out to around $270 a night. As I said said before, the cheapest comparable accommodation available was more than $350 a night, so you saved quite a bit. Not as much as the timeshare/DVC salesperson aid you would, but still a nice discount.

But my bottom line is that you can't compare the price of a value resort room, to a DVC villa. The DVC villa is a nicer resort, with a full kitchen, washer-dryer, health club, Jacuzzi, etc. You bought a new Cadillac, and are comparing it to the price of a used Geo. Now if you cant afford that luxury, that's one thing, but you got a nice discount on that luxury purchase none-the-less.

I'm sure I got some assumptions wrong...I'd be happy to help you think through this if you want to provide some more specifics.

[Tinkermom]

I'm not yet a DVC member (likely will be eventually) but I own a timeshare at Atlantis in the Bahamas, so I know where you're coming from. I often see discounts there that look good and I can't take advantage of them. But when I look deeper, I see that I'm still getting a fair deal.

Anyway I doubt 'one guy's' numbers are accurate. I've been pricing WDW vacations all spring and summer, and it never got that cheap. He must be leaving out park tickets or the actual room cost.

Here's a way to think about it: Assume Disney NEVER discount park tickets....yes there are little things they do like AAA or the DVC AP discount, but those things are minor. Also assume Disney NEVER discounts the dining plan. Whether you are DVC or a regular guest, it's a set amount per night.

What they actually do is offer discounts on hotel rooms, hiding the discount as 'free dining' or 'buy 4 get 3'.

Why are these sound assumptions? I've traveled several times in the past few years during free dining. Each year there's been a free dining offer, there's also been a room only discount offered for the same time. And guess what: if you do the math, you see that the room-only discount plus the full fare dining plan works out to be around the same price as getting a room at the undiscounted rack rate and having the dining plan thrown in for 'free' (if you have 4 or 5 in the room, the free dining gets to be a bit better of a discount than room only).

Ok...that's one half of the equation.

The other half is that you are comparing apples to oranges.

A DVC villa is not a value resort room. It's much nicer and luxurious. It's much more comparable to a suite at a deluxe. And believe me, the discounts are not as big as 'that guy' for accommodations like that. The discounted nightly rates at the deluxe are still well above $225 a night for this fall, even with all the discounts. And suite rates are well above $350 a night.

Based on your maintenance fee, I'm guessing you have between 250 and 350 points, and either stayed for a long time in a studio or in a larger accommodation for 7 nights. Assuming you'll own for 50 years, you paid $500 for this week when you bought into the DVC. You paid another $1400 for this year's maintenance. That works out to around $270 a night. As I said said before, the cheapest comparable accommodation available was more than $350 a night, so you saved quite a bit. Not as much as the timeshare/DVC salesperson aid you would, but still a nice discount.

But my bottom line is that you can't compare the price of a value resort room, to a DVC villa. The DVC villa is a nicer resort, with a full kitchen, washer-dryer, health club, Jacuzzi, etc. You bought a new Cadillac, and are comparing it to the price of a used Geo. Now if you cant afford that luxury, that's one thing, but you got a nice discount on that luxury purchase none-the-less.

I'm sure I got some assumptions wrong...I'd be happy to help you think through this if you want to provide some more specifics.

VERY well said!:thumbsup:

[BigRedDad]

The only way DVC is worth it is if you do not need the up front money. In your case, the $25,000. After that, it starts to get into a lot of statistics that can make the argument for both sides. I think I did a cost analysis on this about 2 years ago. With all common assumptions out there (10% gains per year, etc, etc, etc), that $25,000 would be worth almost $3M over 50 years. Even if it were only $10,000, it would be worth $1.2M over 50 years.

What you need to ask yourself is whether or not the initial money is "throw-away" money? In other words, is your family's well-being and your retirement fully funded without that money? If the answer is no, then DVC or any timeshare is not worth it.

[seanyred]

I look at it this way. What would my trip cost me to pay out pocket? In other words 9 Nights at Kidani paying cash vs. my DVC Fees/Dues...I don't know the exact amount but I know I'm saving money. Also after you get the loan payed off and all you have his Annual Dues you will be paying a lot less than the person paying cash.

[dlpmikki]

In the current economic climate it would be amazing if Disney were not offering deals to get rooms filled. I somehow doubt that those deals will be available for all the years you are a member. It's a gamble. Mine paid off years ago but it would take a lot longer at DVC prices today.

[Ian]

Eh ... I mean it's easy to get distracted along the way by "shiny baubles" like free dining, but remember that the economy is in the tank right now. That guy is not going to pay $1,600 next year for the same package I can tell you that. But you know what you'll be paying.

Also, what kind of room did that guy have? I guarantee it isn't a 2BR suite like what I have at SSR right now.

You can't just look at the negatives. You have to consider the whole picture.

[DISNEYFIX]

The only way DVC is worth it is if you do not need the up front money. In your case, the $25,000. After that, it starts to get into a lot of statistics that can make the argument for both sides. I think I did a cost analysis on this about 2 years ago. With all common assumptions out there (10% gains per year, etc, etc, etc), that $25,000 would be worth almost $3M over 50 years. Even if it were only $10,000, it would be worth $1.2M over 50 years.

What you need to ask yourself is whether or not the initial money is "throw-away" money? In other words, is your family's well-being and your retirement fully funded without that money? If the answer is no, then DVC or any timeshare is not worth it.

This might be the wrong time to make the economic argument. When I bought DVC I received $30,000 of value for my money the same $30,000 in some IRA is now worth about $15,000. Al least the way I feel about makes me feel better, and as I have out at BCV and VWL.:thumbsup:

[Mousemates]

Buyers remorse is a common response that can come into play after most any major purchase. And I can certainly see where you are coming from in terms of frustration that seems to flow from others getting discounts that are not made availalbe to you.

However, i think you are comparing apples to oranges in more than one way (i.e. comparing a stay in a super nice suite at a DVC property with a stay in a motel room (value resort). And that is in comparing what you pay in fees/costs plus your $25,000 initial investment to what someone else pays per year for a disney vacation package.

At this point you pretty much have to pull the $25,000 out of the equation...its a sunk cost that you can't fully get back(if I understand the dynamics of selling your DVC interests....if your going to do math at this point you need to do it based on the discounted value (the amount you could if you sold out) not the full amount invested. most likely if you do that math, then a move back to non-dvc doesn't make that much sense on a cost basis.

In the end, I 've learned that for me the best thing to do after a major purchase is purposefuly ignore commercial/economic changes that occur after the fact (like the cash for clunker program that could have saved me an extra $4500 on a new car purcahse) and simply enjoy what I've already paid for...focusing on the reasons i bought it in the first place...in your case, to have a very nice WDW vacation at least once a year.

[JPL]

I will admit I have had doubts at times but really the only thing that really bothered me recently was hearing about rooms at SSR going for $82 a night with a free dining pin code. I really felt this was really wrong since it's less than a Value Resort.

[FutureCorpsFan]

I can relate to the frustration. Yes, we have purchase deluxe resort accomodations but the value measurement seems to be askew.

Many people can only afford to make it to Disney but once or twice in their lifetime, let alone once or twice a year. DVC can help make that a reality for some. As such, the DVC community has made a commitment to Disney in that it gaurantees repeat business. Other than the annual passes, I've never understood why there is no discount for day passes and food plans for DVC members. DVC members are your volume, premier customers - your diamond club frequent flyers (if you will). They should be receiving the everyday ammenties cheaper than everyone else. The discounts that are currently offered to DVC members are for things that most members will not even take part in. The value needs to be placed where members can take advantage of it most. Otherwise, what's the financial bennifit of returning to Disney year over year?

[locutus]

I'm not yet a DVC member (likely will be eventually) but I own a timeshare at Atlantis in the Bahamas, so I know where you're coming from. I often see discounts there that look good and I can't take advantage of them. But when I look deeper, I see that I'm still getting a fair deal.

Anyway I doubt 'one guy's' numbers are accurate. I've been pricing WDW vacations all spring and summer, and it never got that cheap. He must be leaving out park tickets or the actual room cost.

Here's a way to think about it: Assume Disney NEVER discount park tickets....yes there are little things they do like AAA or the DVC AP discount, but those things are minor. Also assume Disney NEVER discounts the dining plan. Whether you are DVC or a regular guest, it's a set amount per night.

What they actually do is offer discounts on hotel rooms, hiding the discount as 'free dining' or 'buy 4 get 3'.

Why are these sound assumptions? I've traveled several times in the past few years during free dining. Each year there's been a free dining offer, there's also been a room only discount offered for the same time. And guess what: if you do the math, you see that the room-only discount plus the full fare dining plan works out to be around the same price as getting a room at the undiscounted rack rate and having the dining plan thrown in for 'free' (if you have 4 or 5 in the room, the free dining gets to be a bit better of a discount than room only).

Ok...that's one half of the equation.

The other half is that you are comparing apples to oranges.

A DVC villa is not a value resort room. It's much nicer and luxurious. It's much more comparable to a suite at a deluxe. And believe me, the discounts are not as big as 'that guy' for accommodations like that. The discounted nightly rates at the deluxe are still well above $225 a night for this fall, even with all the discounts. And suite rates are well above $350 a night.

Based on your maintenance fee, I'm guessing you have between 250 and 350 points, and either stayed for a long time in a studio or in a larger accommodation for 7 nights. Assuming you'll own for 50 years, you paid $500 for this week when you bought into the DVC. You paid another $1400 for this year's maintenance. That works out to around $270 a night. As I said said before, the cheapest comparable accommodation available was more than $350 a night, so you saved quite a bit. Not as much as the timeshare/DVC salesperson aid you would, but still a nice discount.

But my bottom line is that you can't compare the price of a value resort room, to a DVC villa. The DVC villa is a nicer resort, with a full kitchen, washer-dryer, health club, Jacuzzi, etc. You bought a new Cadillac, and are comparing it to the price of a used Geo. Now if you cant afford that luxury, that's one thing, but you got a nice discount on that luxury purchase none-the-less.

I'm sure I got some assumptions wrong...I'd be happy to help you think through this if you want to provide some more specifics.

Thanks for all the responses. MidnTPK--I know it is rare but one of the guys I spoke to actually had a better room than me. He said he was contacted a week before the trip and was upgraded to a 1 bedroom villa at SSR. Ionly had a studio. He didnt have theme park tickets but I didnt even include that cost to me either in the initial post. And as it was mentioned that the dining plan probably wouldnt be included next year,your right...it probably wont be. BUT this has been the 3rd. summer that Disney has offered perks. The last 2 years theme park admissions were included. They werent icluded this year. Instead they offered dining. I can see what others say about over time the club works out, but after 5 years im still waiting to see the savings. True you can choose higher end accomodations but to be honest...when im there I use my room to shower and sleep. I dont need a garden view or lake view. give me a clean room and AC and im happy. Im just saying members should be given something special. Even if its discounted dining or tickets. Give us a reason to be proud DVC members. O yea...the guy who got the upgrade, had his room made up everyday. Im there a week and i just got clean towels after 4 days. sorry i keep ranting.

[VWL Mom]

I think upgrades are great and am always happy to sense the excitement of the people who get them. That being said, from a DVC point of view I too was concerned reading a post a while back of values w/free dining being upgraded to 1bdrm at SSR & OKW. I know many of you are in contact with your sales reps, did this ever come up?

[MidnTPK]

Im just saying members should be given something special. Even if its discounted dining or tickets.


DVC members are your volume, premier customers - your diamond club frequent flyers (if you will). They should be receiving the everyday ammenties cheaper than everyone else. The discounts that are currently offered to DVC members are for things that most members will not even take part in. The value needs to be placed where members can take advantage of it most. Otherwise, what's the financial bennifit of returning to Disney year over year?
Ok..it's time for some tough love for you two.

The reality is that you bought a timeshare, not a club membership. As much as DVC (and many other vacation clubs) tries to hide it, you bought the right to annually use a unit in a multifamily dwelling for a predetermined period of time. DVC has hidden this fact behind a lot of flexibility, but the fact remains, that's what you bought.

You'd be right to expect things like park ticket or dining discounts, if you had bought into a discount club, but you didn't. You bought a timeshare managed by the Walt Disney Company.

Therefore, Disney has no interest in offering you a discount on park tickets or dining. You're not the best customers, you're locked in customers....what are you going to do if you don't get a discount....not come, not buy park tickets, and not eat? Well in that case they'll either foreclose on you if you don't pay your maintenance fees, or even better for them, sell the room to a daily renter at a higher price....now they've gotten paid for the maintenance AND sold your use to another guest.

All they have to do is keep the vast majority of owners minimally satisfied. If they treat you too badly, too many people will default and they'll be short on maintenance....but guess what...they'd get to sell the unit again with having had to pay you off for your original investment.

Timeshare salespeople are some of the best, most seductive salespeople out there. They sold you value and how much money you'd save.....which is true....but the saving will likely come much further down the road than you expect...and it will only be on the accommodations portion of your vacation.

So why buy in at all? Why give up the opportunity to take advantage of discounts? Because in the long run you get nicer than typical accommodations at a reasonable and predictable price. You never know what the price of a WDW vacation will be in 2015, or what discounts will or won't be offered. By owning the accommodations portion of that future trip, you have some protection against inflation.

Personally, I bought my first timeshare because I wanted Atlantis to be an important part of my life going forward, and I knew from running the numbers that it made a nice annual family vacation an affordable luxury...and one I am required to put in my family's budget every year. That's why the DVC will be part of my life in the future.

If after reading this you realize that the DVC is not for you....you shouldn't feel like a traitor. You might prefer the opportunity to get discounts over the things that the DVC has to offer. Fortunately for you in this scenario DVC has a very active aftermarket.

[MidnTPK]

I think upgrades are great and am always happy to sense the excitement of the people who get them. That being said, from a DVC point of view I too was concerned reading a post a while back of values w/free dining being upgraded to 1bdrm at SSR & OKW. I know many of you are in contact with your sales reps, did this ever come up?

I'm in a tough love mood today.:D

Whether or or not the Walt Disney Company chose to transfer some of its resort guests from its parks & resorts division to its vacation ownership division is none of your business. Just like you have no restriction on who occupies your unit during your DVC reservation, Disney has no restriction on who it can put into (and how much it may charge for) the units that it still owns. At SSR, I see how this is an issue because DVC still has so many more units it can sell before the resort is sold out.

Which is not to say DVC would be deaf to member complaints....but it's also a lot like you telling your next door neighbor how to run his/her house.

[Hammer]

At SSR, I see how this is an issue because DVC still has so many more units it can sell before the resort is sold out.

Which is not to say DVC would be deaf to member complaints....but it's also a lot like you telling your next door neighbor how to run his/her house.


I am agreeing with much of what you have posted, but have to make a minor correction. DVC sold out of the original offering for SSR (I know it was posted on here at some point). They added memberships when they added the treehouse villas, so there are "new" memberships to be purchased.

[MidnTPK]

I am agreeing with much of what you have posted, but have to make a minor correction. DVC sold out of the original offering for SSR (I know it was posted on here at some point). They added memberships when they added the treehouse villas, so there are "new" memberships to be purchased.
Got it. I've done a lot of research on timeshares and the DVC, but I'm not familiar with the phases involved at individual WDW resorts.

And I know DVC/WDW retains a few units so that they'll always be some inventory to sell as hotel rooms, so this type of upgrade is likely to be always out there, but diminishing to some minimal level over time.

[VWL Mom]

....but it's also a lot like you telling your next door neighbor how to run his/her house.

Oh, so that's why they have a for sale sign on their front lawn. :)

I totally get what you are saying. For me it is about the how much, not the who. I'll still be a bit upset if they start upgrading to 2bdrms for less than my annual dues.

Until then I remain quite pleased with my purchase. Put that together with my AP & TIW card I'm a pretty happy camper. :cloud9:

[MinnieMommie]

I will admit I have had doubts at times but really the only thing that really bothered me recently was hearing about rooms at SSR going for $82 a night with a free dining pin code. I really felt this was really wrong since it's less than a Value Resort.

Ouch! Are you serious? $82 a night at SSR and free dining? Wow - they must be desperate to fill the rooms. That is an incredible isolated offer but not something anyone can count on finding if they vacation at WDW each year. :mickey:

[Ian]

Thanks for all the responses. MidnTPK--I know it is rare but one of the guys I spoke to actually had a better room than me. He said he was contacted a week before the trip and was upgraded to a 1 bedroom villa at SSR. Ionly had a studio. He didnt have theme park tickets but I didnt even include that cost to me either in the initial post. And as it was mentioned that the dining plan probably wouldnt be included next year,your right...it probably wont be. BUT this has been the 3rd. summer that Disney has offered perks. The last 2 years theme park admissions were included. They werent icluded this year. Instead they offered dining. I can see what others say about over time the club works out, but after 5 years im still waiting to see the savings. True you can choose higher end accomodations but to be honest...when im there I use my room to shower and sleep. I dont need a garden view or lake view. give me a clean room and AC and im happy. Im just saying members should be given something special. Even if its discounted dining or tickets. Give us a reason to be proud DVC members. O yea...the guy who got the upgrade, had his room made up everyday. Im there a week and i just got clean towels after 4 days. sorry i keep ranting.To be brutally honest, I think the problem is that you never should have purchased DVC in the first place.

First off, you should not be looking for payback after only the fifth year. Payback on a timeshare purchase comes much farther down the road. Timeshares are purchased primarily as an inflation hedge. The average guy has no idea what he'll be paying for a WDW hotel room in 2020, but you know almost exactly what you'll pay for yours.

Also, someone who doesn't really care about the type of accomodations they're staying in really isn't right for DVC. The people who get the most out of their memberships are the ones who need and/or appreciate the extra size and amenities you get in a villa.

Honestly, I think it's time you re-examine your purchase and decide if you made the right decision originally when you purchased your membership. Maybe you bought more with your heart than you did with your head?

[lockedoutlogic]

I hate it when any argument contains the sentence "and they got free dining!"

In case there is anyone who doesn't yet get it....

free dining only exists because september is D-E-A-D DEAD!

That is it....it is to provide filler for the slowest month of the year....year in....year out.

That's it....nothing more. And it has worked well for both the seller and apparently the buyer.

And buyer beware....they give you the dining so you'll buy more junk....and i'd bet the farm that that is EXACTLY what happens. And the profit margin is about 90% on the cheap, east asian manufactured junk that they peddle at virtually everyone of their 364 gift shops....purchased in walmart sized bulk and completely uniform

So while there are great things on both sides of this argument....can we leave FREE DINING for what it is....a hook in an undesirable time of the calender....

it's like not enforcing parking meters at the beach in january (a northeastern thing....paying to use nature)
Why would they?

[Dsnygirl]

Ouch! Are you serious? $82 a night at SSR and free dining? Wow - they must be desperate to fill the rooms. That is an incredible isolated offer but not something anyone can count on finding if they vacation at WDW each year. :mickey:
Actually, this year, what seems to be the situation is over-booking at the Value resorts during free dining, and thus offering people an upgrade to where there are always empty rooms b/c the resorts are so large - SSR & OKW. That then gives Disney the ability to keep selling out the rooms at the Value resorts. (As the Value resort reservations seem to be the only ones getting the free upgrade to somewhere else.)

[diz_girl]

Therefore, Disney has no interest in offering you a discount on park tickets or dining. You're not the best customers, you're locked in customers....what are you going to do if you don't get a discount....not come, not buy park tickets, and not eat? Well in that case they'll either foreclose on you if you don't pay your maintenance fees, or even better for them, sell the room to a daily renter at a higher price....now they've gotten paid for the maintenance AND sold your use to another guest.

All they have to do is keep the vast majority of owners minimally satisfied. If they treat you too badly, too many people will default and they'll be short on maintenance....but guess what...they'd get to sell the unit again with having had to pay you off for your original investment.

I guess that one way that they'll know that they aren't keeping their owners minimally satisfied is if a lot of existing owners compain that because of their dissatisfaction they won't be buying add-on points, will tell people that DVC is a bad deal and, and are considering selling their membership. Yes, they'll be able to sell points to new owners, but I think that they sell a decent amount of add-on points to existing members and without that revenue stream, it will take longer to sell a resort. Bad word-of-mouth can also make it harder to sell points at the rate that they want (which I think is quickly).

They'll also need to give some discounts to existing members in order to lure new members, since everyone wants a discount, so they'll probably always have some discounts.

[MarkC]

I can understand your concern about whether its a good deal for you. Do this.

Figure out what you would have paid to stay at a Deluxe resort for the DVC trips you've taken the last 5 years. How much would you have spent already? Also figure there's a good chance had you invested that money 5 years ago it would have less value than your original investment.

Next, figure what the cost of a room will be in 25-30 years. Will it be $800-$1000 per night? You will still only be paying maintenance fees. Also, look at how many times you like to vacation at WDW. Is it worth it to you?

Maybe you should consider selling about half your points. You would still have your timeshare for some vacations but would generate some cash and cut your maintenance fees in half as well.

And lastly, its an individual decision. All of us posters can give you our opinion but only you can decide what works best for you. I can tell you what I would do but everyone is different, so best of luck to you. Mark

[locutus]

To be brutally honest, I think the problem is that you never should have purchased DVC in the first place.

First off, you should not be looking for payback after only the fifth year. Payback on a timeshare purchase comes much farther down the road. Timeshares are purchased primarily as an inflation hedge. The average guy has no idea what he'll be paying for a WDW hotel room in 2020, but you know almost exactly what you'll pay for yours.

Also, someone who doesn't really care about the type of accomodations they're staying in really isn't right for DVC. The people who get the most out of their memberships are the ones who need and/or appreciate the extra size and amenities you get in a villa.

Honestly, I think it's time you re-examine your purchase and decide if you made the right decision originally when you purchased your membership. Maybe you bought more with your heart than you did with your head?

Who said anything about "payback"/ I was saying it would be nice to get some discounts that non members recieve.

[locutus]

To be brutally honest, I think the problem is that you never should have purchased DVC in the first place.

First off, you should not be looking for payback after only the fifth year. Payback on a timeshare purchase comes much farther down the road. Timeshares are purchased primarily as an inflation hedge. The average guy has no idea what he'll be paying for a WDW hotel room in 2020, but you know almost exactly what you'll pay for yours.

Also, someone who doesn't really care about the type of accomodations they're staying in really isn't right for DVC. The people who get the most out of their memberships are the ones who need and/or appreciate the extra size and amenities you get in a villa.

Honestly, I think it's time you re-examine your purchase and decide if you made the right decision originally when you purchased your membership. Maybe you bought more with your heart than you did with your head?


I hate it when any argument contains the sentence "and they got free dining!"

In case there is anyone who doesn't yet get it....

free dining only exists because september is D-E-A-D DEAD!

That is it....it is to provide filler for the slowest month of the year....year in....year out.

That's it....nothing more. And it has worked well for both the seller and apparently the buyer.

And buyer beware....they give you the dining so you'll buy more junk....and i'd bet the farm that that is EXACTLY what happens. And the profit margin is about 90% on the cheap, east asian manufactured junk that they peddle at virtually everyone of their 364 gift shops....purchased in walmart sized bulk and completely uniform

So while there are great things on both sides of this argument....can we leave FREE DINING for what it is....a hook in an undesirable time of the calender....

it's like not enforcing parking meters at the beach in january (a northeastern thing....paying to use nature)
Why would they?

And lockedoutlogic--this was August...not September and nowhere near dead.

[lockedoutlogic]

And lockedoutlogic--this was August...not September and nowhere near dead.

after speaking to someone who has experience with attendance at WDW.....me.....i can assure you that Aug15-Sept 30 is the historically least crowded period of the year...

Though your point is taken...the falloff in August is not as great as the grind to a halt post labor day period.

My point is this: FREE dining has taken care of that....but that is the only reason that it exists.

They would sell everything at full price if they could....so if they are not....there is a pretty obvious reason why

[MidnTPK]

Who said anything about "payback"/ I was saying it would be nice to get some discounts that non members recieve.
What discounts do you think nom-members receive?

Even during the vaunted buy 4 get 3 deal, the park ticket discount amounted to less than $10, on a $243 ticket, a savings of 3.9%.

And free dining means you pay full rack rate for a room, when discounts of 30%+ can be found on room- only reservations.

Therefore the only discount that Disney really gave to non-memebers was on accommodations. You bought into the DVC, so that's not an option for you. This year the room discounts were deep, but the future will be another story.

[wishiniwasthere]

I get emails and things in the mail regarding DVC quite often. I have never bought into it, and some of the points made are exactly my reason for not. I just don't understand the whole thing actually. We go every year to Disney World, and the reason is, we can get such a good deal. It is cheaper than going on a weekend trip to Chicago, which is only about 4 1/2 hours from us, or going to the Lake. I have gone each of the last 4 years in September. We have a family of four, and on the average pay approximately $1200 for 6 nights, base park tickets, and free dining. The last two years, we have been upgraded, last year to Contemporary and this year for our coming trip to Saratoga Springs. I would be perfectly content in the All Star Sports because we are "Park People!" We spend all our time at the parks. That being said, I can see no advantage at all to buying into the DVC. I will just continue to buy packages from Disney and save tons of money. Some years we even get to go twice. :mickey:

[Ian]

After paying $25000 for my points and such high maint. fees I cant see the benifits on staying a member ...


Who said anything about "payback"/ I was saying it would be nice to get some discounts that non members recieve.Well ... perhaps you didn't specifically use the word payback, but certainly your use of the word "benifits" above lead me to believe you were looking to have already gotten something out of DVC.

I pretty much still think what I said is accurate. You don't sound to me like someone for whom DVC is the right option.

[seanyred]

I get emails and things in the mail regarding DVC quite often. I have never bought into it, and some of the points made are exactly my reason for not. I just don't understand the whole thing actually. We go every year to Disney World, and the reason is, we can get such a good deal. It is cheaper than going on a weekend trip to Chicago, which is only about 4 1/2 hours from us, or going to the Lake. I have gone each of the last 4 years in September. We have a family of four, and on the average pay approximately $1200 for 6 nights, base park tickets, and free dining. The last two years, we have been upgraded, last year to Contemporary and this year for our coming trip to Saratoga Springs. I would be perfectly content in the All Star Sports because we are "Park People!" We spend all our time at the parks. That being said, I can see no advantage at all to buying into the DVC. I will just continue to buy packages from Disney and save tons of money. Some years we even get to go twice. :mickey:

As other posters have stated DVC does not make sense for everyone. But I do believe that over time that my vacations will end up costing less than someone paying per each trip. But to each their own... Just out of curiosity have you taken the DVC tour before?

[MinnieMommie]

Actually, this year, what seems to be the situation is over-booking at the Value resorts during free dining, and thus offering people an upgrade to where there are always empty rooms b/c the resorts are so large - SSR & OKW. That then gives Disney the ability to keep selling out the rooms at the Value resorts. (As the Value resort reservations seem to be the only ones getting the free upgrade to somewhere else.)

yes thanks... but there must be a good availability of rooms at SSR in order to accommodate the overflow from the Values during the month they are offering the special. Looks like they get to continue to entice people to purchase the free dining special and also fill the rooms at SSR. :mickey:

[MinnieMommie]

Like others have said it is natural for people to 2nd guess themselves after making large purchases. DVC is a paid vacation rather than an investment so depending on how you view the purchase you may feel differently about it.

For our family it was a natural decision (but not an easy one. I resisted for many years). We have a large family, stayed at deluxe resorts and visit at least 1 time a year. At our point of purchase into DVC we needed 2 rooms at a deluxe. Once our kids hit 18 yrs we would be charged $25 for each person when there were over 2 adults in the room (2 adults no extra charge but more than 2 adults each to be charged $25). Our purchase will pay itself off and our children will enjoy it for years to come.

I am not concerned about others getting free dining as an incentive to visit and fill rooms during the slow seasons. My family has times of the year when we prefer visiting and they normally do not fall during the free dining season. Even if I were not a DVC member I would not take advantage of the free dining offer.

We are happy with our purchase. I would love to see more discounted dining and other perks for members but it is working for us as it is for now. We have visited for many years and plan to continue vacationing at WDW so as I said before it will pay itself off based on how we have calculated both inflation and our vacation style.

The incalculable measure is the happiness our vacation club purchase brings us. This is something to consider. Just how much do you enjoy visiting and planning subsequent trips? :mickey:

[Dsnygirl]

yes thanks... but there must be a good availability of rooms at SSR in order to accommodate the overflow from the Values during the month they are offering the special. Looks like they get to continue to entice people to purchase the free dining special and also fill the rooms at SSR. :mickey:
:) Exactly. Disney's got the corner market on re-filling a room that's already been paid for!! ;)

[Dsnygirl]

We aren't DVC owners, but are considering it for the future.

I think the biggest factor I see here is the difference in accomodations (b/w a regular resort room, whether it be a value, moderate or deluxe and a DVC room/rooms) and the time spent there.

If you're a true "park person" and have no desire to spend any time at your resort other than sleeping & showering, then a DVC isn't for you. You get your relaxation out of your time at the parks, and that works for you -- perfect!!

If you're instead a person who wants as much downtime at their resort as they do at the parks, and is willing to pay the extra $$ for the luxury of an extra bedroom, a kitchen, etc.... the ambience of a deluxe resort and all it's ammenities... if you find a large part of relaxing on your vacation is tied to where you are staying and how much you love your resort (or the resort you choose to stay at, if it's not your home resort), then a DVC just might be the right option for you.

We are considering a DVC purchase in the future for precisely this reason -- as our kids get older, we'd like to have room to spread out and have our own space... we'd like to be able to cook once in awhile, and enjoy relaxing "at home" on vacation. So for us, it makes sense, as we know the cost of this kind of lodging at Disney is just going to keep going up, and is rarely discounted.

But, if we were only going to be spending a minimal amount of time in our room and didn't care to be there for anything other than sleep, I don't think we'd be thinking about it at all.

I think it all comes down to whatever combination makes you happiest while you're there. :)

[seanyred]

If you're a true "park person" and have no desire to spend any time at your resort other than sleeping & showering, then a DVC isn't for you. You get your relaxation out of your time at the parks, and that works for you -- perfect!!



We are park people and we bought into DVC. Its true that we will spend most of our time in the parks...but for us we can't afford AKL by paying cash so this gave us an opportunity to stay at a Deluxe. I know I'm paying more now than Value but in 5 years I'll break even. Also with having a 2 year old it will be nice to have a better water play area and other activities at the resort.

Also to put it into perspective I have a very small amount of points (less than 160) but it still allows me to stay at a studio once a week during the off season. So my initial investment in this much smaller than others..

[locutus]

What discounts do you think nom-members receive?

Even during the vaunted buy 4 get 3 deal, the park ticket discount amounted to less than $10, on a $243 ticket, a savings of 3.9%.

And free dining means you pay full rack rate for a room, when discounts of 30%+ can be found on room- only reservations.

Therefore the only discount that Disney really gave to non-memebers was on accommodations. You bought into the DVC, so that's not an option for you. This year the room discounts were deep, but the future will be another story.

Not actually a discount but non members do recieve Free dining or park admissions.

[MidnTPK]

Not actually a discount but non members do recieve Free dining or park admissions.
When was there a free park ticket offer?

[Jasper]

During the last 10 years or so we have taken four trips to WDW and during each trip we have toyed with the ide of a DVC membership. Unfortunately my wife and I both have a lot of health issues and can't afford the money to purchase a membership. This situation has given us the opportunity to make a lot of comparisions between going to WDW with DVC and without.

To quote the first President Bush, "It's the economy stupid!" When the economy was strong and the parks and resorts were full it made more sense to have a DVC membership. However, right now, unless you are going to WDW mulitple times a year, it probably makes more sense to just take advantage of all the special offers.

However, I will be the first to admit that this is a short sighted view because when the economy turns around many of these special offers will disappear and then the DVC suddenly becomes much more attractive again. Plus, you will have missed out on any opportunities to get in at the resort of your choice.

[MidnTPK]

Not actually a discount but non members do recieve Free dining or park admissions.
And here is how the dining is not free:

Offer 1: Pay $240 a night (lowest rate in value season) at the WL, but get two adults on the dining plan, a value of $80 a night. Total of $240 out of you pocket

Offer 2: Pay $156 a night (35% off the lowest rate in value season) at the WL, but buy 2 adults on the dining plan for $40 X 2 = $80. So now you have a room for $156 plus dining out of pocket for $80, for a total of $236.

So a total of $4 different (though more people in the room make free dining a better deal, but since you have to pay $25 a night for additional adults, and the dining plan for kids is much cheaper, the deals are still similar in overall value.)

But it aint free.....nothing in life is.

The non members don't just show up and get handed a plate of money. They have to pay over-inflated room rates to get something for free.

[locutus]

When was there a free park ticket offer?

The last 2 summers free park admissions were included in their packages. This year was the dining instead of admissions.

[locutus]

And here is how the dining is not free:

Offer 1: Pay $240 a night (lowest rate in value season) at the WL, but get two adults on the dining plan, a value of $80 a night. Total of $240 out of you pocket

Offer 2: Pay $156 a night (35% off the lowest rate in value season) at the WL, but buy 2 adults on the dining plan for $40 X 2 = $80. So now you have a room for $156 plus dining out of pocket for $80, for a total of $236.

So a total of $4 different (though more people in the room make free dining a better deal, but since you have to pay $25 a night for additional adults, and the dining plan for kids is much cheaper, the deals are still similar in overall value.)

But it aint free.....nothing in life is.

The non members don't just show up and get handed a plate of money. They have to pay over-inflated room rates to get something for free.

I do see what you are saying. But that was 2 people. A family of 4 with a booked room at the all star sports--they were upgraded to a one bedroom villa at SSR ( i know that dosent happen often )-paid $1650. Room and food. I paid $1400 in maint. fees. I also added the dining for my wife and 2 kids- $611. And I only had a studio for 6 nights. Maybe their "Included in package" price wasnt free but it was still cheaper than what Many off if not all of us pay. Im started this post not to argue with anyone. I bought when I did because I grew up going to Disney. I love it as my children do. All i was trying to convey was it it ashame that poeple who did not invest in Disney so often get better deals than those of us who have spent 15, 20 ,25 thousand or more. I know co workers of mine who have the club--actually ownership a 2 different resorts who will defend Disney to his dying day. But even he admits he feels slighted at times.

[FutureCorpsFan]

Ok..it's time for some tough love for you two.

The reality is that you bought a timeshare, not a club membership. As much as DVC (and many other vacation clubs) tries to hide it, you bought the right to annually use a unit in a multifamily dwelling for a predetermined period of time. DVC has hidden this fact behind a lot of flexibility, but the fact remains, that's what you bought.

You'd be right to expect things like park ticket or dining discounts, if you had bought into a discount club, but you didn't. You bought a timeshare managed by the Walt Disney Company.

Therefore, Disney has no interest in offering you a discount on park tickets or dining. You're not the best customers, you're locked in customers....what are you going to do if you don't get a discount....not come, not buy park tickets, and not eat? Well in that case they'll either foreclose on you if you don't pay your maintenance fees, or even better for them, sell the room to a daily renter at a higher price....now they've gotten paid for the maintenance AND sold your use to another guest.

All they have to do is keep the vast majority of owners minimally satisfied. If they treat you too badly, too many people will default and they'll be short on maintenance....but guess what...they'd get to sell the unit again with having had to pay you off for your original investment.

Timeshare salespeople are some of the best, most seductive salespeople out there. They sold you value and how much money you'd save.....which is true....but the saving will likely come much further down the road than you expect...and it will only be on the accommodations portion of your vacation.

So why buy in at all? Why give up the opportunity to take advantage of discounts? Because in the long run you get nicer than typical accommodations at a reasonable and predictable price. You never know what the price of a WDW vacation will be in 2015, or what discounts will or won't be offered. By owning the accommodations portion of that future trip, you have some protection against inflation.

Personally, I bought my first timeshare because I wanted Atlantis to be an important part of my life going forward, and I knew from running the numbers that it made a nice annual family vacation an affordable luxury...and one I am required to put in my family's budget every year. That's why the DVC will be part of my life in the future.

If after reading this you realize that the DVC is not for you....you shouldn't feel like a traitor. You might prefer the opportunity to get discounts over the things that the DVC has to offer. Fortunately for you in this scenario DVC has a very active aftermarket.

I'm not sure I agree with this. As consumers, we have choices. DVC members are not "locked in" to anything. Yes we could resell, but we also have choices to go to other vacation destinations other than Disney within DVC. Those choices are viable, family locations which ultimately takes revenue away from the publiclly traded company "DIS." Vegas is one place that you can get severe discounts on dining and attractions even if you are not staying at a resort. And while not at Disney, our vacation dollars are going somewhere else.

So, from a corporate pespective, it would benefit the corporate entity "DIS" to make it a little more attractive to keep their primary customer coming back year over year besides the accomodation cost. Since the goal of any public company is to increase shareholder value, offering additional incentives could help ensure the revenue stream.

[It'sWDW4me]

The last 2 summers free park admissions were included in their packages. This year was the dining instead of admissions.

Wow, I missed this deal. I was at Pop in August 2006, at OKW (yes, I was one of those lucky people - ressie at ASMo was upgraded to OKW) in August 2007, and at POR in August 2008. I had "free" dining but I definitely paid for my park tickets. No, park tickets were most decidedly not included for free because I would have jumped all over that! :blush:

Look, I can see your point but I also think you're taking a fairly narrow view on this. You shelled out a lot of money and continue to shell out for dues every year. To see these discounts right now is painful, I'm sure. But 20 years from now, you'll be able to laugh at those discounts because you'll have "paid" much, much, much less! Step back and take in the wider view.

Isn't there a discount on annual passes for DVC members? TIW? I don't know for sure because I just can't financially swing buying in to DVC right now but I definitely would if I could.

[TheRustyScupper]

I myself have been a member for 5 years now and am having some real second thoughts about it.

1) You also forgot to amortize the $25,000 it cost up front.
2) Now, you have to add $1,000 per year (payment and future interest).
3) Boing!

[locutus]

actually right now im at 1400 a year.

[Ian]

As consumers, we have choices. DVC members are not "locked in" to anything. Yes we could resell, but we also have choices to go to other vacation destinations other than Disney within DVC. Those choices are viable, family locations which ultimately takes revenue away from the publiclly traded company "DIS."

So, from a corporate pespective, it would benefit the corporate entity "DIS" to make it a little more attractive to keep their primary customer coming back year over year besides the accomodation cost. Since the goal of any public company is to increase shareholder value, offering additional incentives could help ensure the revenue stream.Yeah ... see I sort of agree with you on this. The mantra of a lot of folks is "Oh once you buy DVC they have your money and they don't care about you." and that may actually be the way Disney feels.

But if that's so, that's very, very unwise. First off, DVC members tend to be their most loyal customers. That means they're the most likely to have high expectations as to how they're treated by the company. They also tend to be very vocal ... they talk to other people about their memberships, Disney theme parks, and their Disney experiences in general. Many times, they do it on the Internet on boards just like this one. And we have a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide audience. You complain here and tens of thousands of people could see it.

Second, I can't believe that word of mouth isn't a big way Disney drives DVC sales. Folks with money to buy into DVC tend to move in social circles with other folks who have money to buy DVC. If they have a bad experience, they're going to talk their friends out of buying instead of becoming advocates for the program.

Lastly, as someone mentioned above, you don't have to use your points at Disney. There are literally hundreds of other reasonable options. So if members don't get treated right, they might just go off to other places and take their dollars for merch, food, park admission, etc. with them.

[locutus]

You are totally right Ian.

[Jeffybob]

I bought into the BWV's over 10 years ago and do not regret it in the least. We live in NoCA and it is cheaper for us to go to Orlando than to SoCA, points wise and stay at the Boardwalk vs DLR properties.

We take advantage of cheap flights on SW from the West, often using a free ticket here and there; the magical express to and from the resort; lodging at our home resort thus taking advantage of the 11 mo booking window; we buy 10 day, park hopper, no expiration tickets in advance and also take advantage of the dining plans.

Another perk is that we can book single days instead of a week at a time which is helpful for trips like our upcoming cruise on the Magic. We are staying the night before the cruise and the night of our return at the BWV's and are also able to use the timeshare for the inlaws and our BFF too, saving them the cost of lodging on both ends, which is a significant savings.

We are already booked in 2010 for Presidents Day weekend and the Fourth of July.

-Jeffybob (Boardwalk DVC Member since '98) :mickey:

2009 - BWV (2), DCL - Eastern Caribbean
2008 - BWV (2)
2007 - BWV
2006 - DLR (2), SSR, BWV, DCL - Western Caribbean
2005 - HH, BWV (2)
2003 - BWV
2002 - BWV, Disneyland Paris
2001 - BWV, DLC - Bahamas
2000 - BWV
1999 - BWV, HH, VB
1998 - BWV, Swan

[DVC Mike]

I have absolutely no regrets about purchasing DVC. :thumbsup:

[luvDaMouse]

My only regret is that I did not buy MORE points, which I hope to rectify soon:secret:

[lens300]

I the only thing I thought of when I heard about the free upgrades to SSR was what budget is being used for upkeep of those rooms. I hope it is separate from our maintenance fees. Also since those rooms are technically paid for buy us dose DVC recieve any money from the hotel division. Some one must pay for housekeeping, pool maintenance, wear and tear in the rooms, property taxes and all other things our dues cover.
As far as I am concerned those rooms should be empty unless they are the few that are kept for rental purpose other than that there better be some funds transfered. And we should see a reduction in our dues.

[johnO]

Anyway I doubt 'one guy's' numbers are accurate. I've been pricing WDW vacations all spring and summer, and it never got that cheap. He must be leaving out park tickets or the actual room cost.


$1700 for Room, free dining and park tickets for a family of four, IS accurate.

[Ian]

$1700 for Room, free dining and park tickets for a family of four, IS accurate.It's accurate if you're staying at Pop Century, but certainly not accurate if you're staying in a villa!

My cousin and his family booked a treehouse for last week and it cost them something like $6,000 for 4 adults and 1 child with admission and free dining.

[Aurora]

$1700 for Room, free dining and park tickets for a family of four, IS accurate.

The original poster said that their park tickets were not included. He also said it was a family of five (2 adults and 3 kids, not sure of age).

[DVC2004]

We joined about 5 and a half years ago now and have never once regretted our decision. We go more than we used to because it is more affordable. I want to say we paid around $12K or $13K, pay $700 and some odd dollars a year in dues. However, we are staying in rooms that are larger and we can stay longer, or we can go more often. We have been able to take my sister's family on a few occassions and stay in a 2 BR which rents out for big bucks on cash. We exchanged out last year and got a 2 BR at Harborside in Atlantis for 7 nights (room priced out on various travel websites for $11,600). I have also used it for a week in Hawaii. We have more than gotten our money's worth, but still have 44 years left on our deed. I'd estimate the value of the trips we have already taken since joining (both Disney and nonDisney) at easily $30,000. So I bought in for $13K and paid $3500 in dues for 5 years= I have spent $16500. Not a bad deal to me to take quality vacations I would have paid in cash for anyway- and spent half the price tag others would have taking the same trips.

Personally I could care less about free dining, gift card rebates, etc. Nothing is really "free" when you consider the facts. Free dining means paying more for your room, even at the values which are not comparable to DVC. And I have a legacy to give to my kids or sell (which it has appreciated in value) later on.

DVC's not for everyone. It is, however, for us.:thumbsup: If you are going to vacation at least once per year, even once every other year, it almost always makes sense.

[Aurora]

I know this has been brought up before, but I think we often get rankled by "sweet" deals like "free" dining offered to the general public and forget that DVC members get discounts all year on annual passes, water park tickets, special event tickets, dining and purchases. Plus we get to pool hop. Plus, overall we pay less for our room (yes, even when we stay in a one-bedroom, even if we own at SSR, even when Disney offers prospective purchasers big discounts to stay there).

I'm happy with DVC even without free dining. Including our initial purchase price AND annual dues, our last trip cost us about $120 a night for our 1-bedroom for 2 adults and 3 children. In June! We paid more than that for an extra night at a regular room at Port Orleans. :number1:

[MidnTPK]

I'm not sure I agree with this. As consumers, we have choices. DVC members are not "locked in" to anything.
Yes, you are locked in. If you don't pay your dues, you'll not have the DVC for very long.

Your personal occupation of your unit is another story. But from Disney's perspective, they don't care. You can occupy it, rent it out, or swap it within the DVC for something else. Either way, they have locked in customers in that unit until the end of the DVC lease.

Yes we could resell, but we also have choices to go to other vacation destinations other than Disney within DVC. Those choices are viable, family locations which ultimately takes revenue away from the publiclly traded company "DIS."
Resell: another family takes over your usage and dues. No change for Disney.

And that swap within DVC is a great deal for Disney. If you don't occupy that room, they can sell it as a regular hotel room and make far more revenue on it than if you had occupied it. That's why the best use of points is at DVC resorts. anything else and the DVC member is taking a material hit on the value of their points that year.

And while not at Disney, our vacation dollars are going somewhere else.
Yes, your dollars are going somewhere else. But Disney is replacing you with someone else and their dollars are being spent at WDW.


So, from a corporate pespective, it would benefit the corporate entity "DIS" to make it a little more attractive to keep their primary customer coming back year over year besides the accomodation cost.
Yes, and this is what I meant by minimal. And other have added that DVC keeps the quality up to help sales to existing members.

Anyway, I was communicating a little harshly in that post to get my point across. Previous posters were upset that they weren't getting the discounts or perks that non-members were getting. They were misunderstanding what they had bought into. I was offering some tough love so that they have a better feeling for what they have and what they'll get in the future, rather than be upset every year.

You should notice that I'm a fan of DVC. It offers a good value for the annual deluxe WDW visitor. But others might be getting sold a bill of goods that there's this miraculous saving associated with the DVC. That's never going to be what the DVC is because of the nature of the enterprise.

[Aurora]

Locutus, I reread all your posts and didn't see where your home resort is or how many points you have per year. If you're paying $1,400 in annual dues, you are receiving at least 200 points per year. (Vero Beach has the highest annual dues at $6.40 per point.)

Even if you stayed concierge at the Animal Kingdom in a studio at the end of August you would have about 80 points left over. So per night, averaged out, it is costing you less than you think.

The guy that you met stayed 7 nights for his price. You get to stay almost twice as long for that $1,400.

[Ian]

It offers a good value for the annual deluxe WDW visitor. But others might be getting sold a bill of goods that there's this miraculous saving associated with the DVC. That's never going to be what the DVC is because of the nature of the enterprise.I actually like this summation. I think it really crystalizes, in two or three sentences, exactly what DVC is.

DVC is best suited for guests who visit at least once or twice a year for 14-20 days or so ... guests who typically book deluxe or suite level accomodations ... and guests who intend on making Disney a resort destination for as long as circumstances allow.

It is really not suited for the "We're only in our room to sleep ... it's just my wife and I ... we normally stay at Pop Century because we're park warriors and don't care about our room ... and we go once every two or three years ... " folks.

And one thing that doesn't get brought up enough in the financial analysis is the lost opportunity cost on the money you invest in DVC. Yes, you may have paid $15,000 for your membership and gotten $30,000 in rooms back for that money (using one PP's numbers), but you have to factor out how much you could have earned in interest or investment income on that $15,000. That's a very important piece of the puzzle.

I would honestly love to see someone put together a detailed financial analysis of DVC vs. non-DVC over a 50 year contract life and see if it actually pays off. Someone with a solid economics and statistics background could probably do it fairly easily.

[DVC2004]

And one thing that doesn't get brought up enough in the financial analysis is the lost opportunity cost on the money you invest in DVC. Yes, you may have paid $15,000 for your membership and gotten $30,000 in rooms back for that money (using one PP's numbers), but you have to factor out how much you could have earned in interest or investment income on that $15,000. That's a very important piece of the puzzle.

I see your point and I believe you are referring to my post re paying $15K and getting $30K in trips- but the money I spent on DVC, or would have spent on vacations had I not joined is NOT money I would have invested. I put aside other money for that, retirement, kids college, random investing and my monthly savings. This is strictly money I would have been spending anyway to travel because our familly vacations at least 2 times per year and it is a priority to us to do so. And spending money on travel is never an investment- it's money you are blowing and never getting back, wouldn't you agree? I don't think you could call any Disney vacation a financial investment.
Assumming I did save it in the bank I'd earn 2% maybe, and if I invested it I probably would have lost a good portion more than I would have gained anyway, especially in this past year or so.

I mean you could say that about anything- buying a car, eating out at restaurants, having an occasional bottle of wine, buying clothes or going to sporting events. Really what is the point of life if you do a gain/loss analysis on every single thing is all I am saying. Again for me- this is money I was spending anyway. Didn't pull it from a savings or invest, or home equity or retirement.

[Ian]

I see your point and I believe you are referring to my post re paying $15K and getting $30K in trips- but the money I spent on DVC, or would have spent on vacations had I not joined is NOT money I would have invested. I put aside other money for that, retirement, kids college, random investing and my monthly savings. This is strictly money I would have been spending anyway to travel because our familly vacations at least 2 times per year and it is a priority to us to do so. And spending money on travel is never an investment- it's money you are blowing and never getting back, wouldn't you agree? I don't think you could call any Disney vacation a financial investment.
Assumming I did save it in the bank I'd earn 2% maybe, and if I invested it I probably would have lost a good portion more than I would have gained anyway, especially in this past year or so.

I mean you could say that about anything- buying a car, eating out at restaurants, having an occasional bottle of wine, buying clothes or going to sporting events. Really what is the point of life if you do a gain/loss analysis on every single thing is all I am saying. Again for me- this is money I was spending anyway. Didn't pull it from a savings or invest, or home equity or retirement.Well ... yeah, but here's what you're missing ...

First off, you can't think about operating in this market. This is the worst economy the U.S. has seen in 80 years. The fact is, that for the vast majority of our lifetimes investing in the market would have returned you about 8% on your money.

Secondly, you could still invest your money and yet spend it annually for vacations and the like. It would have to sit somewhere before you sent it to Disney.

Example ... you book a $4,000 trip to Disney World in January for travel in September. By buying DVC, you effectively paid that $4,000 whenever you purchased your membership, so Disney has that $4,000 and they're earning interest on it. You could, instead, put it in an ING account and get 3% on it yourself, pay for your trip when payment is due, and bank the earnings.

Obviously, this is a very simplistic example, but I really just used it to illustrate that investing vs. spending are not mutually exclusive.

[DVC2004]

Well ... yeah, but here's what you're missing ...

First off, you can't think about operating in this market. This is the worst economy the U.S. has seen in 80 years. The fact is, that for the vast majority of our lifetimes investing in the market would have returned you about 8% on your money.

Secondly, you could still invest your money and yet spend it annually for vacations and the like. It would have to sit somewhere before you sent it to Disney.

Example ... you book a $4,000 trip to Disney World in January for travel in September. By buying DVC, you effectively paid that $4,000 whenever you purchased your membership, so Disney has that $4,000 and they're earning interest on it. You could, instead, put it in an ING account and get 3% on it yourself, pay for your trip when payment is due, and bank the earnings.

Obviously, this is a very simplistic example, but I really just used it to illustrate that investing vs. spending are not mutually exclusive.

Let's just agree to disagree. :thumbsup: I get your example. I would not recommend anyone to purchase DVC if it's not in their budget. I mean again, are you going to save up for a lifetime to buy a home in cash so as to avoid paying mortgage interest to a bank? I drive a BMW- I could buy a lesser car to get me from point a to point b and save the money but I would rather enjoy what I work for. You can't take it with you is my motto. Say I earn $1500 bucks in investment gains or earned interest on that money if I hadn't bought DVC; isn't the govenrment going to tax me on that anyway for interest income or capital gains? So what did I really earn. I paid more in taxes last year than some people make as a salary. We could go on and on debating these things. For me it was a good financial decision- for me. By all means I do not think everyone would be a good fit.

It's an emmotional purchase of course. I have a son with special needs. It's important to me to spend time with my family, and I liked that I could provide this for him and my other son so our family and future generations could enjoy it.

Ian no hard feelings- just a healthy debate. I always enjoy your point of view here on these boards.:thumbsup:

[MidnTPK]

I would honestly love to see someone put together a detailed financial analysis of DVC vs. non-DVC over a 50 year contract life and see if it actually pays off. Someone with a solid economics and statistics background could probably do it fairly easily.
I attempted this analysis when I bought my Atlantis timeshare. The bottom line is that it comes down to too many volatile variables to know (for certain at the point of purchase) how good or bad a deal a timeshare purchase is.

You have to make assumptions about future hotel room rates, future dues requirements for your resort, future yields on income producing assets, and future income taxes on said assets. Note the FOUR future assumptions. And assume/want to take a vacation every year for the full term of your timeshare's life.

Hotel rates rely not only on general inflation, but the specific demand for your resort and if WDW grows more or less desirable to the general public.

Dues relies on the competence of the resort's physical plant management, the wear and tear on the individual unit, and then the price of home furnishings and construction material. Plus the price one must pay for competent professional property managers.

Then you also have to analyze what you would do with that money if you hadn't put it into a timeshare purchase. You'd have to find a place to earn income with it, perpetually until the lease ends. Then you have make assumption about the rates that income will be taxed at in the future. these are killers because it's VERY hard to find something very safe and reliable that pays anything more than the risk-free rate.

In the end, you take the present value of all those things and see which is less expensive. A timeshare was much less expensive in my case, but I wanted to be committed to at least one vacation a year with my family (I've seen my siblings and their families skip 3+ years of vacations because they like Volvos more than Hondas...I like vacations more than brand names on cars, so I wanted that portion of my budget mandatory).

[Ian]

Let's just agree to disagree. :thumbsup:I get your example. I would not recommend anyone to purchase DVC if it's not in their budget. I mean again, are you going to save up for a lifetime to buy a home in cash so as to avoid paying mortgage interest to a bank? I drive a BMW- I could buy a lesser car to get me from point a to point b and save the money but I would rather enjoy what I work for. You can't take it with you is my motto.Oh no no ... we don't have to agree to disagree at all. I completely agree with you! Remember, I own DVC (I've also owned two BMWs ;) ), and love it. My only point was that, if you were going to do a true financial cost/benefit analysis you would have to include the lost opportunity cost of your upfront investment.

But I completely agree with you ... you can't take it with you ... enjoy what you have while you have the chance. That's my motto, as well. Live life to the fullest!

Or as I sometimes put it ... you can save for a rainy day, but no one six feet under cares if it's raining!


I attempted this analysis when I bought my Atlantis timeshare. The bottom line is that it comes down to too many volatile variables to know (for certain at the point of purchase) how good or bad a deal a timeshare purchase is.

You have to make assumptions about future hotel room rates, future dues requirements for your resort, future yields on income producing assets, and future income taxes on said assets. Note the FOUR future assumptions. And assume/want to take a vacation every year for the full term of your timeshare's life.Yeah, but you could take a stab ... I mean there's meaningful historical data available on prices for Disney hotel rooms. There's meaningful historical data on typical annual increases on DVC dues. There's an accepted annual yield (8%) that's used in most future value calculations. The taxes are a bit harder, but you could probably reasonably estimate those, too.

I think it can be done. With a ton of assumptions yes, but you could get something reasonably accurate I bet.

[Carolanne]

DVC is best suited for guests who visit at least once or twice a year for 14-20 days or so ... guests who typically book deluxe or suite level accomodations ... and guests who intend on making Disney a resort destination for as long as circumstances allow.

It is really not suited for the "We're only in our room to sleep ... it's just my wife and I ... we normally stay at Pop Century because we're park warriors and don't care about our room ... and we go once every two or three years ... " folks.

I regret NOT buying into DVC. I've been going to WDW for over 13 years & it's something I'm always going to go back to. I used to go 3x a year, but have cut it back to 2 (either me & DH or me & mom). Used to stay only at deluxe resorts, but now if I want to keep going as much as I do, we're staying at moderate or value resorts.

When I think about how much money I've put out for WDW vacations (which I do love)...I probably could have put that money towards purchasing a DVC, and I regret not doing it.

[hubbyofadisneyholic]

I think this is one of those situations where the "facts" can be nudged to fit whichever side of the fence you are inclined to fall on.

We think DVC makes sense for us. We bought @ OKW via resale back in 2003 and could now sell for roughly what we paid (minus commissions, etc.) We were going to WDW at least once a year anyway so we have upgraded our accomadations for about what we were spending previously.

Others can put together figures justifying in their minds why they didn't buy in.

As long as your choice works for YOU, that is all that matters.

[MidnTPK]

Yeah, but you could take a stab ... I mean there's meaningful historical data available on prices for Disney hotel rooms. There's meaningful historical data on typical annual increases on DVC dues. There's an accepted annual yield (8%) that's used in most future value calculations. The taxes are a bit harder, but you could probably reasonably estimate those, too.

I think it can be done. With a ton of assumptions yes, but you could get something reasonably accurate I bet.
I have taken a stab...but I didn't save / can't find my spreadsheet. Things have gotten little crazy at work though, so it will be a few days.

[Ian]

We bought @ OKW via resale back in 2003 and could now sell for roughly what we paid (minus commissions, etc.)Yeah, that's something I forgot that you'd have to factor in. Your equity ownership in your contract.

[Mousemates]

....I wanted to be committed to at least one vacation a year with my family (I've seen my siblings and their families skip 3+ years of vacations because they like Volvos more than Hondas...I like vacations more than brand names on cars, so I wanted that portion of my budget mandatory).

:thumbsup:

[locutus]

I know this has been brought up before, but I think we often get rankled by "sweet" deals like "free" dining offered to the general public and forget that DVC members get discounts all year on annual passes, water park tickets, special event tickets, dining and purchases. Plus we get to pool hop. Plus, overall we pay less for our room (yes, even when we stay in a one-bedroom, even if we own at SSR, even when Disney offers prospective purchasers big discounts to stay there).

I'm happy with DVC even without free dining. Including our initial purchase price AND annual dues, our last trip cost us about $120 a night for our 1-bedroom for 2 adults and 3 children. In June! We paid more than that for an extra night at a regular room at Port Orleans. :number1:

Aurora-I own at SSR. Many people say they dont care about the dining because " we forget" about the discounts DVC members get. PLEASE. Savings at water parks--a couple dollars off. Anual passes--nice if you get down there more than 1 trip per year but im sure most of us get only 1 vacation a year making an annual pass not worth it. And shopping discounts...where? WOD in the marketplace used to give the discount. No more. Most stores in the marketplace on my recent trip offered us no discounts. And while some say there is no such thing as "free dining"--when someone pays 1400 for 2 adults and 2 kids--for 1 week--gets upgraded from Coronado Springs to a 1 bedroom villa at SSR--that looks free to me. And bear in mind they get housekeeping EVERY DAY. We dont get that. And as someone else posted where does that money come from? Our dues? and they never go down. Given a choice Id take the dining plan and give back the 4 dollars per person savings at water parks or couple dollars saving at mini golf.

[Ian]

Yeah, but again ... you're taking an extremely rare situation and trying to make it the norm.

Getting one week with dining included at SSR for $1,400 is a one in a million shot. It's not something you can plan on year after year.

I really think you're too caught up in this one-off guy you ran into and it's preventing you from seeing the forest for the trees.

Over the life of your contract ... which is the only thing you should be worried about ... you're going to make out better than the average guest.

[DVC Mike]

I really think you're too caught up in this one-off guy you ran into and it's preventing you from seeing the forest for the trees.

Over the life of your contract ... which is the only thing you should be worried about ... you're going to make out better than the average guest.

Agreed.

[lockedoutlogic]

After browsing over this heated topic (which took about 3 hours....casually...:badpc:)

-I can't shake a couple of things:

First, you can sugarcoat it all you want: But DVC owners are bankable, guaranteed clientele that basically don't need to be catered to...
I know there's a million, valid, "yeah but" counterarguments to this...but we all know that it is true.

My favorite is the "you can choose to take your points elsewhere"
YEAH...BUT...we all know that 99.9% of all DVC members bought the thing for the DISNEY aspect of it and get the best use of their points by repeat trips to DVC locations. It just doesn't work out any sweeter than DVC at WDW and in other future Disney run locations. This we know...it hard to use it as a counter argument when it really is the case.

Second,
We all know that you can get a better public deal for the money pound for pound that traveling with your DVC points right now. And we know it won't last forever and in a few years the pendulum will swing back into the DVC/Advantage direction.
But that doesn't change the truth of the moment: To shell off my room at Saratoga for a discounted free dining package at All-star prices is a bit insulting....even if it is a temporary desperation move.
Numero Uno - It again shows that something just ain't right with Saratoga....why is there never any demand for that place at anytime other than property wide capacity? we all know
Dos - At the end of the day, the deal they are receiving to stay for one random week is hard to equal in the here and now....and you can't say it will even it out in the future.
Remember that only our rooms are going to go down in cost (compared with inflation) in the longhaul...we will pay more for everything else (tix, food, junk, rec, liqua)....and since we go alot more on average - guess who's wallets will be ultimately lighter - even WITH the decline of comparitive room price as the resort rack rates climb.


In the end - does disney have to cater to DVC members and treat them as their number one priority? No...absolutely not.
Do they take them for granted in many ways? yes. DVC members get the benefit of new locations and their attached services coming - but that is just a residual. Those new towers are for new sales, DVC cares not whether those that bought OKW in 93 ever set foot in BLT. DVC members are in no way catered too as far as I can see it (and i've looked at from 1,327 different angles at this point)
Should Disney treat DVC more generously because they have invested long term large scale money in their operations? Absolutely...but they don't have to, it's not the way business is conducted anymore. A change for the worse - for sure.

[Aurora]

Well, you can lick the sugar off it as much as you want ;), but you can't make me unhappy that we bought DVC. I'm one of those people whose home resort is SSR and is HAPPY with it, and one of those people who used to take advantage of the huge discounts to stay at the Poly.

I also know that my room is still costing me less than the other guy.

What "ain't right" with Saratoga is that it's the largest DVC property with no adjacent major Disney gate. If Saratoga in its present design was right next to the Boardwalk, we know what would happen. For proof, what's the second largest DVC property not next to a major gate? Old Key West. And you can pretty much get rooms there nearly anytime too.

Respectfully Locutus, you didn't answer my question about how many points you have. If your home resort is SSR, with an approximate dues rate of $4.34 per point, in my estimate, you have more points to use this year than just your seven nights in a 1-bedroom, which means your $1,400 is going farther than just a weeklong trip.

[Joannelet]

I saw somewhere that someone wrote that they offer free dining during slow times.
Actually that is not the only time they offer it. They also offer free dining in november through December (they have done so the last 2 years) (and these are BUSY TIMES! I know because I was a cast member.....
I have to say that when they are pitching the club to you they are pushing the discounts (the member perks!) not just the rooms.
I have been on the phone with DVC the last 2 months because I have been feeling the same way as the first person that started this thread.
Here is what I was told: in response to the amount of discounts I was told that they will take my concerns and bring this up at meetings (I'm sure they do...) by the way Disneyland California-EVERY SINGLE RESTAURANT when I was there took 10% off my bill because we are DVC members....this is how it should be since a MAJORITY of DVC owners are from the DISNEY WORLD RESORT!

I was also told that Disney does not own DVC. ITs a private company so they cannot do any of the promotions that are offered to the general public that are not dvc members. This is what every person I spoke to said!

My personal sales person told me this: she said that the dining offer has only been during the bad economy because people can't afford the trips. This is absolutely not true its been longer than that. My sister has been there the last 3 years (with free dining) and it started even a year or 2 before that! Way before the economy was bad. Then I said to her well why is the economy only bad for the general public? Why isn't the economy bad for the DVC members who have to pay for all their food and their membership etc.? She was like well they just won't be offering it forever. (she avoided the question)

My other complaint had to do with why is it that I cannot EVER EVER EVER transfer out of my home resort (especially during SLOW times like someone posted) I go always in September and sometimes in December and everything is always always booked except for my home resort.
THen I hear that people who don't have DVC call up to the resort that I'm trying to get into and if they aren't DVC members they get in.

There answer to this was by Florida state law they have to have a portion I think 10% available for customers paying cash. I understand this so much better if that is the case but its still very fustrating that I cannot switch out ever. I have now been given a separate info number to call when booking my next trip as if magically that person will be able to get me into the resort I want....we shall see next year.....I am not planning on it....


I know in the long run we will probably be saving money but I hear the fustrations and just know that you aren't the only one. They are offering the free dining again while I am there this year. So while I'm paying monthly and paying more than the average person since it will not be payed off for many more years and paying free dining on top of it while everyone else is getting it for free ;( I am going to be a little jealous of all those people....but one day maybe those people will be jealous of me!!

I just want the discounts and member perks (like the ones at Disneyland- every restaurant should take a discount for us to give us more incentive to be members 10% is not going to hurt them!) and the ability to switch resorts like I was promised... what they still pitch today!

[lockedoutlogic]

Well, you can lick the sugar off it as much as you want ;), but you can't make me unhappy that we bought DVC. I'm one of those people whose home resort is SSR and is HAPPY with it, and one of those people who used to take advantage of the huge discounts to stay at the Poly.

I also know that my room is still costing me less than the other guy.

What "ain't right" with Saratoga is that it's the largest DVC property with no adjacent major Disney gate. If Saratoga in its present design was right next to the Boardwalk, we know what would happen. For proof, what's the second largest DVC property not next to a major gate? Old Key West. And you can pretty much get rooms there nearly anytime too.

Respectfully Locutus, you didn't answer my question about how many points you have. If your home resort is SSR, with an approximate dues rate of $4.34 per point, in my estimate, you have more points to use this year than just your seven nights in a 1-bedroom, which means your $1,400 is going farther than just a weeklong trip.

Not to highjack....but you brought up a good point:

If old key west and Saratoga are the largest two...which they are....and they have comparably less to offer because no adjacent gate...which they do...and they have the least amount of food/merchandise/ recreational opportunities to offer....which they do...

then why does a studio cost 11 points at Saratoga and only 8 at OKW (at value season)?

Huh?

there is no good reason...and that is one of the major problems with the great "horsethemed" location...but there are others

ok...back to the topic at hand:thedolls:

[Hammer]

I saw somewhere that someone wrote that they offer free dining during slow times.
Actually that is not the only time they offer it. They also offer free dining in November through December (they have done so the last 2 years) (and these are BUSY TIMES! I know because I was a cast member.....

They have offered the "free dining" promotion the last 2 years outside of late August-September because the economy has been in a recession since late 2007-early 2008. Disney started to feel it in mid-2008 because vacations are planned farther in advance thus delaying the effect on Disney. When the economy fully rebounds back (some sectors have started to show some improvement but tourism will see the delay in upswing) Disney will go back to offering the "free dining" type specials in just mid-August to end of September as the crowds are gone due to the new school year and hurricane season.


I have to say that when they are pitching the club to you they are pushing the discounts (the member perks!) not just the rooms.
I have been on the phone with DVC the last 2 months because I have been feeling the same way as the first person that started this thread.
Here is what I was told: in response to the amount of discounts I was told that they will take my concerns and bring this up at meetings (I'm sure they do...) by the way Disneyland California-EVERY SINGLE RESTAURANT when I was there took 10% off my bill because we are DVC members....this is how it should be since a MAJORITY of DVC owners are from the DISNEY WORLD RESORT!

Disneyland has a lot fewer restaurants than WDW and you do get a 10% discount at some WDW restaurants, probably the same number of restaurants as at WDW




My other complaint had to do with why is it that I cannot EVER EVER EVER transfer out of my home resort (especially during SLOW times like someone posted) I go always in September and sometimes in December and everything is always always booked except for my home resort.

Are you trying to book at a non-home resort at 7 months mark? I have been able to book a non-home resort every time I have called 7 months before my check-in date and have been able to get a reservation at another resort other than my home resort (SSR). I leave for Beach Club Villas in less than 2 weeks and I booked the day after my 7 month date.


Oh, and to back up Aurora, I also own at SSR and am happy there. I've stayed at my home resort and liked it very much. I find it much nicer than OKW, where I stayed for a week last year and could not wait to leave, though I know there are many who love OKW (I'm just not one of them). I plan to try all the WDW DVC resorts but I am more than satisfied with SSR.

[lockedoutlogic]

Oh, and to back up Aurora, I also own at SSR and am happy there. I've stayed at my home resort and liked it very much. I find it much nicer than OKW, where I stayed for a week last year and could not wait to leave, though I know there are many who love OKW (I'm just not one of them). I plan to try all the WDW DVC resorts but I am more than satisfied with SSR.

not to nitpick, Ham....

but this is the kind of comment i see all the time from the Saratoga "defenders"

"I've stayed there...and liked it"

That's great....but that leads me to believe that you'd rather be elsewhere and think of saratoga...your "home" as more of a fallback place.

Which seems to be the case for the vast majority of owners.

I've stayed there and it was ok. Not much like the other disney locations, not much to make you yearn for it in any way after you leave. Certainly not much to plan annual visits for 45 more years (boy that sounds bad:)). But for me the big sticking points are the comparitve point descrepancy between the 'Toga and OKW and AKV on the cheaper side and subesequently the Beach/BWV/WL for nominally more...amongst others:thedolls:

But Hey...I still think it stinks that I don't get 4 free days of tickets and free dining Too:thedolls::mickey::thedolls:!!!

[dlpmikki]

Not to highjack....but you brought up a good point:

If old key west and Saratoga are the largest two...which they are....and they have comparably less to offer because no adjacent gate...which they do...and they have the least amount of food/merchandise/ recreational opportunities to offer....which they do...

then why does a studio cost 11 points at Saratoga and only 8 at OKW (at value season)?

Huh?

there is no good reason...and that is one of the major problems with the great "horsethemed" location...but there are others

ok...back to the topic at hand:thedolls:

That is an easy one to answer and it is the same reason why OKW has bigger rooms. OKW was the first and Disney were not as greedy then because they didn't know it would work so they made a good offering on point cost and room size. Points per room night have been going up ever since Disney started opening new resorts.

[Hammer]

not to nitpick, Ham....

but this is the kind of comment i see all the time from the Saratoga "defenders"

"I've stayed there...and liked it"

That's great....but that leads me to believe that you'd rather be elsewhere and think of saratoga...your "home" as more of a fallback place.

Which seems to be the case for the vast majority of owners.

Actually, you don't really know my motivations. I am not staying at SSR this trip or the next one because my goal is to try all the DVC resorts before I do repeats. Most of my trips are for less than a week, so I usually have choice of where to stay and the location doesn't really matter to me as we always rent a car. My sister was actually disappointed that we weren't staying at SSR this trip.


I've stayed there and it was ok. Not much like the other disney locations, not much to make you yearn for it in any way after you leave. Certainly not much to plan annual visits for 45 more years (boy that sounds bad:)). But for me the big sticking points are the comparative point discrepancy between the 'Toga and OKW and AKV on the cheaper side and subsequently the Beach/BWV/WL for nominally more...amongst others:thedolls:


Like Mikki said, OKW had its point value established before Disney knew DVC was going to be so successful. Once they saw what they had, they upped the point total regardless of how many units or where it was located.

[Ian]

I'm one of those people whose home resort is SSR and is HAPPY with it, and one of those people who used to take advantage of the huge discounts to stay at the Poly.Count me as another SSR owner who is very happy with his home resort.

We just came from a 6 night stay in a 2BR there and we loved it. In fact, my Mom joined us this time and it was her first stay at SSR. Previously, she had a negative opinion of the place, but after her stay she just raved about it.


That's great....but that leads me to believe that you'd rather be elsewhere and think of saratoga...your "home" as more of a fallback place.

Which seems to be the case for the vast majority of owners.I know you always say that, but I totally disagree with you.

I can tell you 100% that I not only like Saratoga Springs, I love it. I think the grounds are gorgeous, the rooms are up-to-date and very clean (unlike OKW), the pool is fantastic, the spa is great, and contrary to what others think the location is solid as well. I timed our drive to MK, Epcot, and the Studios and all of them took us less than ten minutes from departure to parked.

SSR is the largest DVC resort and that's probably the #1 reason why there's availability there. Secondly, I'm not sure about you, but most people like to try out different resorts each trip. I have my favorite resorts, but even I don't go back to them every time. I like to switch things up, so yeah ... even though I love SSR that doesn't mean I'm not going to try to stay at other resorts from time to time.

Locked, I know you hate SSR, but I do find it frustrating that you continually try and pass your own opinions of the place off as A. fact and B. everyone else's opinion. You may find this hard to believe, but I'm quite certain that there are many, many SSR owners who love their home resort just like I do.

[MidnTPK]

Yeah, but you could take a stab ... I mean there's meaningful historical data available on prices for Disney hotel rooms. There's meaningful historical data on typical annual increases on DVC dues. There's an accepted annual yield (8%) that's used in most future value calculations. The taxes are a bit harder, but you could probably reasonably estimate those, too.

I think it can be done. With a ton of assumptions yes, but you could get something reasonably accurate I bet.


I have taken a stab...but I didn't save / can't find my spreadsheet. Things have gotten little crazy at work though, so it will be a few days.
Ok...so I did the analysis of DVC vs. Cash. I compared renting (from Disney as a hotel room) a 1 BR in at the BLT to buying DVC points for the same, for 7 nights annually until 2057.

Here are my assumptions:

WDW hotel room rates will increase 2.5% a year, starting from today's $530 per night (fro a 1 BR at the BLT).
A week in regular season will always take 238 points.
DVC's BLT dues will start at $3.67 a point, and increase 5.5% a year.
You can earn 5% (net of taxes) in alternative investments.

With these assumptions, staying 7 nights as a hotel room, the present value is around $108,000....meaning you could put that amount into investments today, and never have to dip into another cent of other money to cover your full week at WDW.....just withdraw that year's amount from you 'vacation account'.

Doing the same with the DVC costs around $74,700.....$26,650 today, $48,100 in dues in the future.

So over time, you'll save $33,300 of today's dollars by buying into the DVC.

The break even point, the nightly hotel room rate (today) where DVC would be just as expensive as renting from Disney, is $368 a night...a 30% discount off of rack rates. Given that 30% is about the discount that been offered this year (the worst recession since the great depression) I think its fairly safe to say that DVC will always be a better deal.

Here are some of the weaknesses of the analysis:

With the DVC you're locked into a vacation. And a deluxe one at that. There's some (incalculable) financial value to having the option of skipping a vacation/downgrading accommodation and saving your money. If you don't think you'll be using DVC 1 BR villas 75% of the time, these numbers probably won't work out.
DVC dues may be more expensive. But hotel rooms might be too. All you can do is make the best decision with the available information at the moment of purchase.
A DVC stay doesn't include housekeeping. Yes, but you can put up to the legal limit in your DVC unit without added charges....whereas a hotel room will have additional charges for adults...and subject to any new fees WDW wishes to add to it's standard room rates.
Actually finding an alternative investment that you'd be able to rely upon.

Anyway, I set up my spreadsheet to be flexible. If you think my assumptions are poor, I can re-run the numbers very easily.

[Ian]

With the DVC you're locked into a vacation. And a deluxe one at that. There's some (incalculable) financial value to having the option of skipping a vacation/downgrading accommodation and saving your money.True, but bear in mind you aren't truly locked in to taking a vacation. Theoretically, you could rent your points in a given year and make some of your money back. In fact, at the current $11 per point rental rate (which is certain to go up over time along with everything else) you could potentially make a plan to rent your points out every so many years and make back a good portion of what you spent to join in the first place.

Now granted most people wouldn't do this, but say you bought 200 points for $100 a point (an upfront investment of $20,000). If you took 9 years out of your 50 year contract and reserved those years for renting out your points, you'd basically get all your money back in rental fees. And that's just assuming a flat $11 per point charge for the duration of the contract.

[MidnTPK]

True, but bear in mind you aren't truly locked in to taking a vacation. Theoretically, you could rent your points in a given year and make some of your money back. In fact, at the current $11 per point rental rate (which is certain to go up over time along with everything else) you could potentially make a plan to rent your points out every so many years and make back a good portion of what you spent to join in the first place.

Now granted most people wouldn't do this, but say you bought 200 points for $100 a point (an upfront investment of $20,000). If you took 9 years out of your 50 year contract and reserved those years for renting out your points, you'd basically get all your money back in rental fees. And that's just assuming a flat $11 per point charge for the duration of the contract.
Very good point. Makes that criticism of the exercise less important.

[locutus]

Lockedoutlogic--You are very right. I wish Disney treated us --the ones who invested so much--a little better. And Aurora I do have more. Three hundred to be exact, but past couple years only able to get 1 week vacation so Havent been able to use all the points.

[diz_girl]

Here are my assumptions:

WDW hotel room rates will increase 2.5% a year, starting from today's $530 per night (fro a 1 BR at the BLT).
A week in regular season will always take 238 points.
DVC's BLT dues will start at $3.67 a point, and increase 5.5% a year.
You can earn 5% (net of taxes) in alternative investments.

With these assumptions, staying 7 nights as a hotel room, the present value is around $108,000....meaning you could put that amount into investments today, and never have to dip into another cent of other money to cover your full week at WDW.....just withdraw that year's amount from you 'vacation account'.

Doing the same with the DVC costs around $74,700.....$26,650 today, $48,100 in dues in the future.

So over time, you'll save $33,300 of today's dollars by buying into the DVC.

Did you factor in 11% (or so) room occupancy tax in your calculations for staying at BLT with a cash reservation? If not, then your savings with into buying DVC are even greater.

[lockedoutlogic]

I know you always say that, but I totally disagree with you.

I understand...but we agree on most so i don't take this one too seriously:D


I can tell you 100% that I not only like Saratoga Springs, I love it. I think the grounds are gorgeous, the rooms are up-to-date and very clean (unlike OKW), the pool is fantastic, the spa is great, and contrary to what others think the location is solid as well. I timed our drive to MK, Epcot, and the Studios and all of them took us less than ten minutes from departure to parked.

I'm glad you like it....but you know that my issues are with this little gem did to the DVC inventory as a whole...and how Saratoga came about and what conditions it was built under....
But again....to each their own.


SSR is the largest DVC resort and that's probably the #1 reason why there's availability there. Secondly, I'm not sure about you, but most people like to try out different resorts each trip. I have my favorite resorts, but even I don't go back to them every time. I like to switch things up, so yeah ... even though I love SSR that doesn't mean I'm not going to try to stay at other resorts from time to time.

Of course you and everyone else should stay everywhere else. THAT"S THE WHOLE POINT!!!
Ian....honestly...didn't the logjam to get outta home resort become painfully obvious as Saratoga was being sold? No correlation? It's the fact that it wasn't strategically planned well. To add a full 1/3 of membership (at the time...based on unit numbers) to DVC at a location that doesn't have the adjacent gate - and was built on a failed resort location (you can look that up...it is a fact) - and was possibly the least imagineered location anywhere (arguable....but definitely one of the finalists) - and using the same facilities to a certain extent that aren't on the level of the other DVC/deluxe locations....

whatever....digress



Locked, I know you hate SSR, but I do find it frustrating that you continually try and pass your own opinions of the place off as A. fact and B. everyone else's opinion. You may find this hard to believe, but I'm quite certain that there are many, many SSR owners who love their home resort just like I do.

Are there 40,000 members in love? how about 20,000? 10,000 maybe? 5000 smitten?

guess it's anybody's guess....you can have your's and i can have mine...

Hey...like i said...we agree to disagree...i'll take the ire on this one.
But i have heard nothing that disputes my arguments....
The demand level is not up to snuff. Call member services and ask for ANY Day of the year and you can prove this one yourself. (Admit it....don't you expect them to say "I have the 1 BR in Saratoga and_____")
And the arguement of "well it's the biggest" isn't valid either. If there were 1000 rooms at Beach Club or Contemporary and 300 at Saratoga....would this "random" phenomenon shift to them? unlikely
Saratoga is the same service as OKW for the near price of Beach, et al. that is a problem - and it also debunks the whole notion that OKW was "cheap because they didn't know"...
I submit that the point values of Animal Kingdom Lodge and even Bay Lake are evidence that Saratoga's point chart is WRONG!!!
Just look at it and think about....for where you are and what you get....Saratoga is the one that stands out as the red flag....again...an opinion....but a very honest one.

I sometimes state things "too adamantly"...this is undoubtedly one of those. It's not black and white fact....it's the fact as I see them...based on alot of experience and thought.

So what i say isn't meant to be the final word....
But to be honest, i'm repeatedly being told that a pig is not a pig on this subject. And that is not what the scenario has played out to be.

We can all wait until the "newness" of Saratoga wears off and it becomes "run down" like OKW....boy then it will be a pretty picture...
...my guess:mickey:

And i have a gift for everyone: no more Saratoga talk from me on this one

[MidnTPK]

Did you factor in 11% (or so) room occupancy tax in your calculations for staying at BLT with a cash reservation?
No, but I didn't include details like that for a reason.

Using a rack rate for hotel room is not that realistic. In every season but the peak of holidays, there will likely be some type of discount offered off of the rack rate.....like AAA even if nothing else is offered. That's a very common practice in the hotel industry for the past 50 or so years, so it will probably continue.

That's why I provided the breakeven daily rate...so you can see how cheap a room would have to get to make it EQUAL to a DVC equivalent. When discounted rack rate, plus taxes and fees, is below that point renting from Disney would be cheaper. But any all-in daily rate above that makes DVC the better deal.

[Ian]

locked, I guess I don't totally disagree with your assessment of the strategic decision making that went into building SSR. I can see that adding such massive inventory at a resort that was almost certain to be among the least desirable due to lack of proximity to a theme park did cause a lot of the resort hopping problems we have today.

I'm sincerely hoping, though, that the addition of the THVs may go some distance towards alleviating that problem. Hopefully, the novelty of those accomodations will be enough to get some owners with contracts at other resorts to try and swap in to SSR and also limit some of the SSR owners from swapping out.

I don't totally disagree with you, but I do think you're overly hard on the resort itself. That's where my primary points of disagreement rest.

[Aurora]

Are there 40,000 members in love? how about 20,000? 10,000 maybe? 5000 smitten?


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Lockedout, you definitely have a way with words.

To go WAY back to the original post, I will try to make Locutus feel a little better about the lucky guy he ran into.

The scenario: Original poster stayed for 6 nights at a studio (I don't know exactly when; since he said he just got back let's say it was the end of August) and paid extra for the dining plan. He pays $1,400 a year in dues at Saratoga and had to pay another $611 for the dining plan for his family on this trip.

He met this lucky guy who paid $1625 for seven nights, including the dining plan, at an All-Star resort, and wound up with an upgrade to a 1-bedroom at Saratoga. Definitely a great deal.

So OP is ticked. He wants to know why this guy got more than he does for his $1,400 in dues per year.

But HE DIDN’T. Here’s why:

The lucky guy spent about $831 for his seven nights at a 1-bedroom at Saratoga just for the room ($1625 minus $791, the amount it costs for two adults, three kids on the dining plan for seven nights). Holy cow!

However, the OP owns 300 points. He used (at the most) 100 points on his most recent stay in a studio at SSR, which cost him about $460. (Saratoga dues rate of $4.6 per point.) That means the room and the dining plan for six nights cost him $1071.

But hey, you say, the first guy got to stay in a 1-bedroom for seven nights and our OP only stayed in a studio for six. But since Locutus has about 200 points left, he could use them to stay in a 1-bedroom for AT LEAST 6 more nights at the same time of year, or even more nights in September.

So actually you could argue that for that $1,400, the OP gets a six-night vacation in a 1-bedroom PLUS a six-night vacation in a studio FOR FREE.

See how you can fool with the numbers?

[Ian]

But HE DIDN’T. Here’s why:

The lucky guy spent about $831 for his seven nights at a 1-bedroom at Saratoga just for the room ($1625 minus $791, the amount it costs for two adults, three kids on the dining plan for seven nights). Holy cow!

However, the OP owns 300 points. He used (at the most) 100 points on his most recent stay in a studio at SSR, which cost him about $460. (Saratoga dues rate of $4.6 per point.) That means the room and the dining plan for six nights cost him $1071.Okay ... I had to read this two or three times before I picked up on where your analysis misses the mark ... I knew something was off, but couldn't put my finger on it.

You only factored in the cost of his annual dues. You forget to factor in the upfront money he paid to buy his points, interest on the financing, lost opportunity cost, etc. amortized across the life of the contract.

His actual annual cost to own is probably at least two to three times the $1,400 he pays in dues. Even if he got a pretty good deal on his 300 points and only paid $80 a point, that means he spent $24,000 to buy his points. If he financed them at the standard Disney rate of 10.25% over 10 years and put down only the required 10% that means his actual cost to buy the points was around $31,000.

That means, assuming he has the full 50 years on his contract, you have to add an additional $620 per year in costs to the equation. And that doesn't count in lost opportunity cost in terms of what he could have earned on that money if he had just banked it.

If he invested the $24,000 over the 50 year period and only earned a modest 5% rate of return, compounded monthly, that would give him about $290,000 at the end of the term. Divide that by the 50 years (subtracting the original $24,000) and it comes to another $5,320 per year ($290,000 - $24,000 = $266,000 / 50 = $5,320) bring his total annual costs to approximately $7,340 per year ($1,400 a year in dues + $620 a year for points purchase and financing + $5,320 per year in lost opportunity cost).

[DVC Mike]

Hey lockedoutlogic! What is your DVC home resort?

[lockedoutlogic]

locked, I guess I don't totally disagree with your assessment of the strategic decision making that went into building SSR. I can see that adding such massive inventory at a resort that was almost certain to be among the least desirable due to lack of proximity to a theme park did cause a lot of the resort hopping problems we have today.

I'm sincerely hoping, though, that the addition of the THVs may go some distance towards alleviating that problem. Hopefully, the novelty of those accomodations will be enough to get some owners with contracts at other resorts to try and swap in to SSR and also limit some of the SSR owners from swapping out.

I don't totally disagree with you, but I do think you're overly hard on the resort itself. That's where my primary points of disagreement rest.

Well...it does need to be addressed over time or the membership on the whole is not going to be as pleased with DVC as they are now...

Since a complete redo/reconstruction of the Saratoga services area is unlikely (as they would have to shut the place down for about a year)...then i see only one path:

More DVC locations in the US to draw more people at more times away from WDW....something that probably will happen

More desirable locations at WDW....you know where i'm going with this one:
Once the Seasons gets established, it is only logical that the Poly and Grand will receive their own Villas...in time. My guess is that it will be surprising just how little time that will take. I am also a big advocate of expanding Wilderness Lodge and perhaps trying to squeeze a yacht club unit in as well...

They don't need remarkable change...my guess is a 5% reduction in demand on the Beach/Boardwalk/Wilderness/Contemp locations would do wonders for flexibility...and simply shifting the demand to new locations (contemp being the first) and decreasing demand for the older "desirables" will create a three tiered system of choices...

And i really want to see what happens when and if they sell the AKV and BLT numbers to capacity and the economy returns to a moderate level of travel spending....as right now the picture of demand is skewed by two locations that the jury is still out on....

we shall see

:darth:If you only knew the POOWWWEERRRR of the darkside!

[lockedoutlogic]

Hey lockedoutlogic! What is your DVC home resort?

I'll give you six guesses....and the first five don't count:thumbsup:

That was simply a matter of selection...as it was the only location for sale at the time...

[Ian]

... it is only logical that the Poly and Grand will receive their own Villas...in time. My guess is that it will be surprising just how little time that will take.Yeah, I think the conversion of a few longhouses/buildings at the Grand and Poly into DVC is a near foregone conclusion.

The cost/benefit to Disney is just too great to ignore.

[Aurora]

Okay ... I had to read this two or three times before I picked up on where your analysis misses the mark ... I knew something was off, but couldn't put my finger on it.

You only factored in the cost of his annual dues. You forget to factor in the upfront money he paid to buy his points, interest on the financing, lost opportunity cost, etc. amortized across the life of the contract.

His actual annual cost to own is probably at least two to three times the $1,400 he pays in dues. Even if he got a pretty good deal on his 300 points and only paid $80 a point, that means he spent $24,000 to buy his points. If he financed them at the standard Disney rate of 10.25% over 10 years and put down only the required 10% that means his actual cost to buy the points was around $31,000.

That means, assuming he has the full 50 years on his contract, you have to add an additional $620 per year in costs to the equation. And that doesn't count in lost opportunity cost in terms of what he could have earned on that money if he had just banked it.

If he invested the $24,000 over the 50 year period and only earned a modest 5% rate of return, compounded monthly, that would give him about $290,000 at the end of the term. Divide that by the 50 years (subtracting the original $24,000) and it comes to another $5,320 per year ($290,000 - $24,000 = $266,000 / 50 = $5,320) bring his total annual costs to approximately $7,340 per year ($1,400 a year in dues + $620 a year for points purchase and financing + $5,320 per year in lost opportunity cost).

Right. The reason I didn't do that was:

1. Because Locutus originally complained that this guy was spending "X" amount and he was spending "this much" on dues, and I wanted to point out that he got way more than just a week's stay for the dues he was paying.

2. Because comparing a decision to prepay 50 years of accommodations to this guy's one-time great deal didn't make sense. All the other posts you guys did earlier about cost vs. investment, forecasting discounts for the future, etc., had already been illuminated.

My main purpose was to point out that his original dissatisfaction didn't add up, and that his $1,400 dues for 300 points couldn't compare to one guy's weeklong stay at Disney World.

Now if dues were to go up exponentially over the next few years, I'd be the first one yelling. But so far the incremental increases have been very modest.

And even if you added in the $620 per year, that's still a very good price for a 1-bedroom, that's still less than the "lucky guy" paid for his weeklong stay.

P.S. I find the "lost opportunity" calculations always a little misty -- because there are so many variables besides just the 8 percent historical average rate of return. Which has also been discussed above.

OK, I'm getting dizzy now.

[dlpmikki]

This topic is rapidly degenerating into the pros and cons of DVC and we have separate topics for that. I've lost count of the number of times people have worked out different ways of financing - but please go check them out in the other topics rather than add them here.

To go from a value to SSR is a great move for that person but for an owner to see it happening can be somewhat frustrating. But is that enough to regret owning DVC? I think folks in this thread have been looking at why you buy DVC and then going off a bit at a tangent into the finance side and whether they like particular resorts or not.

Can we try and keep a bit tighter to what the OP posted? Thanks!

[Ian]

This topic is rapidly degenerating into the pros and cons of DVC and we have separate topics for that. I've lost count of the number of times people have worked out different ways of financing - but please go check them out in the other topics rather than add them here.

To go from a value to SSR is a great move for that person but for an owner to see it happening can be somewhat frustrating. But is that enough to regret owning DVC? I think folks in this thread have been looking at why you buy DVC and then going off a bit at a tangent into the finance side and whether they like particular resorts or not.

Can we try and keep a bit tighter to what the OP posted? Thanks!Hmmm ... Isn't that discussion pretty much key to discussing the OP's topic, though?

It would be very difficult to refute/support his position that he's not getting value out of his membership without discussing the relative financial benefits and drawbacks of owning DVC.

[lens300]

To go from a value to SSR is a great move for that person but for an owner to see it happening can be somewhat frustrating. But is that enough to regret owning DVC? I think folks in this thread have been looking at why you buy DVC and then going off a bit at a tangent into the finance side and whether they like particular resorts or not.

I made the following post about a week ago and was surprised that nobody made any comment about it. This wouldn't make me regret buying in but it definitely leaves some questions.


I the only thing I thought of when I heard about the free upgrades to SSR was what budget is being used for upkeep of those rooms. I hope it is separate from our maintenance fees. Also since those rooms are technically paid for buy us dose DVC recieve any money from the hotel division. Some one must pay for housekeeping, pool maintenance, wear and tear in the rooms, property taxes and all other things our dues cover.
As far as I am concerned those rooms should be empty unless they are the few that are kept for rental purpose other than that there better be some funds transfered. And we should see a reduction in our dues.

[seanyred]

I concur with Ian...since we are discussing possibly being disappointed with a large purchase, finance is a big part of this.
I've been reading this thread for awhile but reluctant to add anything because I think most of the arguments are on both sides are being well stated. However, I do feel that there is a saturation point with ownership in DVC, in other words owning to many points.

The question is how often do people get sooooo excited about purchasing DVC that they buy to many points because they believe they will use every point every year...Just a thought of where buyers guilt comes from...but that's why when I made my modest purchase I bought just what I needed with the understanding that there will be limitations (I can only stay in Studio for 7 nights a year and during the off season only). But I can always add on in the future if I choose to do so.

And as for the perks...I admit I wish they had more perks for us but I do not see the perks as a reason for purchasing nor a necessity. I first and foremost bought into a timeshare for the accommodations.

One final question to those who have timeshares with other companies: Do they give you outrages discounted perks? And how do they compare to Disney? Just wondering.

[Jeffybob]

Agreed. We also own the minimum point level (150 annually) that was available when we bought in.

We have a timeshare on Maui. There are no extra perks for owning aside from the fact that we own in Hawaii, use it 52 weeks a year with no blackouts and it trades "red".

We have never been disappointed with Disney.

I am realistic about what we are getting for the money spent initially and that is lodging at a deluxe property today, at yesterday's dollars.

Additionally, you do not have to use your membership for only Disney. We have used this timeshare to visit NYC and stay in Manhattan twice and could not have been happier as well as visited Disneyland Paris, where the park tickets for the length of stay were included.

A prospective buyer needs to do the research, compare the choices that are available and see what fits their needs. If you think that it works for you, go for it and if not, don't do it and continue to pay as you go.

-Jeffybob (Boardwalk DVC Member since '98)

2009 - BWV (2), DCL - Eastern Caribbean
2008 - BWV (2)
2007 - BWV
2006 - DLR (2), SSR, BWV, DCL - Western Caribbean
2005 - HH, BWV (2)
2003 - BWV
2002 - BWV, Disneyland Paris
2001 - BWV, DLC - Bahamas
2000 - BWV
1999 - BWV, HH, VB
1998 - BWV, Swan

[lockedoutlogic]

Agreed. We also own the minimum point level (150 annually) that was available when we bought in.

We have a timeshare on Maui. There are no extra perks for owning aside from the fact that we own in Hawaii, use it 52 weeks a year with no blackouts and it trades "red".

We have never been disappointed with Disney.

I am realistic about what we are getting for the money spent initially and that is lodging at a deluxe property today, at yesterday's dollars.

Additionally, you do not have to use your membership for only Disney. We have used this timeshare to visit NYC and stay in Manhattan twice and could not have been happier as well as visited Disneyland Paris, where the park tickets for the length of stay were included.

A prospective buyer needs to do the research, compare the choices that are available and see what fits their needs. If you think that it works for you, go for it and if not, don't do it and continue to pay as you go.

-Jeffybob (Boardwalk DVC Member since '98)

2009 - BWV (2), DCL - Eastern Caribbean
2008 - BWV (2)
2007 - BWV
2006 - DLR (2), SSR, BWV, DCL - Western Caribbean
2005 - HH, BWV (2)
2003 - BWV
2002 - BWV, Disneyland Paris
2001 - BWV, DLC - Bahamas
2000 - BWV
1999 - BWV, HH, VB
1998 - BWV, Swan

Sounds like you have had a great experience....

We also bought the minimum (160), knowing that we would work the calender for maximum usage...

We haven't even had to do that...and we've probably spent somewhere around 12-20 nights a year in WDW with points to spare...


But i do have one thing...I sincerely doubt that the days of DVC throwing in extra perks...such as the included tickets to DLP you mentioned...are long gone...

I'm actually jealous i was but a young lad in the mid 90's and had to go to college instead of buying DVC early....as they used to throw around parkhoppers and annual passes like they were going out of style...

And my inlaws got their points at HHI in 98 for what worked out to be 42 bucks a point....less for their 240 than the 84 a point i got for 160 in 2006

[locutus]

Okay ... I had to read this two or three times before I picked up on where your analysis misses the mark ... I knew something was off, but couldn't put my finger on it.

You only factored in the cost of his annual dues. You forget to factor in the upfront money he paid to buy his points, interest on the financing, lost opportunity cost, etc. amortized across the life of the contract.

His actual annual cost to own is probably at least two to three times the $1,400 he pays in dues. Even if he got a pretty good deal on his 300 points and only paid $80 a point, that means he spent $24,000 to buy his points. If he financed them at the standard Disney rate of 10.25% over 10 years and put down only the required 10% that means his actual cost to buy the points was around $31,000.

That means, assuming he has the full 50 years on his contract, you have to add an additional $620 per year in costs to the equation. And that doesn't count in lost opportunity cost in terms of what he could have earned on that money if he had just banked it.

If he invested the $24,000 over the 50 year period and only earned a modest 5% rate of return, compounded monthly, that would give him about $290,000 at the end of the term. Divide that by the 50 years (subtracting the original $24,000) and it comes to another $5,320 per year ($290,000 - $24,000 = $266,000 / 50 = $5,320) bring his total annual costs to approximately $7,340 per year ($1,400 a year in dues + $620 a year for points purchase and financing + $5,320 per year in lost opportunity cost).

Right again Ian. your good with numbers thats for sure. People seem to only be looking at yearly dues spent and firget all about the money spent on the original purchase. On another note I love SSR.

[dlpmikki]

It does make a big difference when you bought in and whether you finance. I didn't finance, bought in at $50 a point and had 9 years of free entry into the parks. I reckon those 9 years of free entry made a good contribution to covering the initial costs. If I bought in now at $100 it would be a lot harder decision and a much higher cost over the term of membership. But I do think the only way to decide if you like DVC is the emotional one - it is not about money in the same way as an investment. It is about how you feel about the vacations with your family and knowing that you can go back again because you have prepaid a big proportion. I know I wouldn't have got to Disney nearly as much without DVC and I was glad to use the good offers when they had them to Disneyland and DLRP. Offers have changed for better and worse over the years. Who knows what the future will bring - but while you own DVC you know that it can include trips to WDW.

[Mickey'sGirl]

It does make a big difference when you bought in and whether you finance.
I completely agree. We bought our points at the Boardwalk with money we would have spent on a vacation. It would have been spent either way, but this way, we have many years of holiday to look forward to at a fraction of the cost (ie our dues).

Having only been members a short time, and only having just taken our first DVC holiday last month, I have no regrets whatsoever. We had fantastic accomodations, and huge savings on our Annual Passes. Our trip next year will only cost us food (and our annual dues of course). Fantastic for us!:thumbsup:

[locutus]

I completely agree. We bought our points at the Boardwalk with money we would have spent on a vacation. It would have been spent either way, but this way, we have many years of holiday to look forward to at a fraction of the cost (ie our dues).

Having only been members a short time, and only having just taken our first DVC holiday last month, I have no regrets whatsoever. We had fantastic accomodations, and huge savings on our Annual Passes. Our trip next year will only cost us food (and our annual dues of course). Fantastic for us!:thumbsup:
Mickeysgirl--you are in a good position to understand what I was pondering. It seems great that next year all you need to pay for is food...and dues. But when those dues (depending how many points you have) are added up things get pricey. What hurts is when you think that "hey my rooms paid for I just need food" and then they offer a package for what your dues cost, that includes park tickets OR a dining plan for non members, thats what makes you think.

[Ian]

What hurts is when you think that "hey my rooms paid for I just need food" and then they offer a package for what your dues cost, that includes park tickets OR a dining plan for non members, thats what makes you think.Yeah, but once that guy pays for his "special deal" he's done. He has nothing left but his memories.

When you're done paying, you have an asset. You own something. You can re-sell it if you choose and make back most, if not all, of the money you spent. The guy who got the "special deal" can't do that.

[Dsnygirl]

Yeah, but once that guy pays for his "special deal" he's done. He has nothing left but his memories.

When you're done paying, you have an asset. You own something. You can re-sell it if you choose and make back most, if not all, of the money you spent. The guy who got the "special deal" can't do that.
You know what Ian, that is one thing I never thought of. We will never get our money back on any of the trips we have already taken, or any of the trips we will still take before we (hopefully :blush:) buy into a DVC.

But once we do, should we change our minds or need the $$ again, we will get reimbursed by re-selling... maybe not every dolloar, but certainly close... and definitely for the trips we have used the DVC for. That right there makes the decision even easier. Gotta run and tell my DH in the morning... :laughing:

[Ian]

Right and don't forget that if, for some strange reason, you can't take a Disney vacation one year you can always rent your points, too.

The going rate is like $11 per point, so if you rent out say 160 points to someone you're going to take in like $1,700. That should pay most or all of your DVC costs for that entire year!

For example, we own 160 points at SSR. The current cost-per-point for annual dues is $4.34, which means we pay $694.40 per year. We happen to have purchased SSR for cash, but we explored financing and it was going to cost us something like $135 per month. Over 12 months that comes to $1,620.

Add those two up and the typical SSR owner is spending $2,314.40 a year on their membership until the loan is paid off.

So if you rented points for $1,700 you've offset a significant portion of your annual expenses.

[Saintstickets]

I've been reading the posts on this thread and here is my 2 cents (and that is all it is worth!)

For those that feel slighted because of current deals offered by Disney to non-DVC members, here is a suggestion - Pay cash for your trip, take advantage of the deal and rent or transfer your points to pay for the cost of the cash trip. If you do not want to go this route, then bank your points and stay longer next year or upgrade to a GV or go during a premier season.

I too wish that Disney would offer some kind of perk to DVC members in addition to the straight benefits of ownership. But the fact is, at this time, they do not have to. Don't forget, this is a business to them and to offer anything "free" or at a discount to a captive audience reduces the bottom line. It would be nice but as a businessman, I understand why they do not.

As for comparing DVC ownership costs to an amortized or future value of your initial investment, that is apples and oranges. Having X dollars at the end of 50 years compared to what you have spent on points & MF's is not a good comparison. Having those X dollars at the end of 50 years means you did not take the vacations and enjoy the time with your family during that time. Sure you have X dollars but at what cost? Personally I prefer the time with my family and the memories we'll have for the rest of our lives. It's hard to put a price on that!

DVC is not for everybody. Each person's situation is unique and there will ALWAYS be someone that got a great deal that makes one envious. It doesn't matter if it is a "free" dining plan, "free" park tickets, discounted rooms or cheaper price/point thru a reseller vs direct from Disney. We humans always second guess what is a major decision for us. Shrinks call it cognitive dissonance where we experience anxiety that leads one to rationalize a decision or get upset because of the decision. You make the best decision you can at the time with the information you have, what is right for your family and go from there.

I love the idea of DVC ownership and am in the process of closing on my first point purchase right now. I bought a small contract and will try it for a while to see if it is all I think it is cracked up to be. If it is, I will buy more when able. If it is not, I will sell and move on. It's the right decision for me at this time in my life. Hopefully each and every one of you will have a positive experience and enjoy the opportunities that DVC ownership can afford you. GLTA

[seanyred]

We humans always second guess what is a major decision for us. Shrinks call it cognitive dissonance where we experience anxiety that leads one to rationalize a decision or get upset because of the decision. You make the best decision you can at the time with the information you have, what is right for your family and go from there.

GLTA

First off Welcome to Intercot.
Second Congrats on your new DVC purchase.

Being a therapist I would like to offer a different view point of cognitive dissonance. Your definition is accurate but there are many ways cognitive dissonance can bring positive change/decision making, instead of just anxiety or rationalization. However, I do agree with you that buying into DVC or any Vacation Club should be based on how it works for you and your family and if you can afford it. (in that order).

Family First

[Ian]

As for comparing DVC ownership costs to an amortized or future value of your initial investment, that is apples and oranges. Having X dollars at the end of 50 years compared to what you have spent on points & MF's is not a good comparison. Having those X dollars at the end of 50 years means you did not take the vacations and enjoy the time with your family during that time. Sure you have X dollars but at what cost? Personally I prefer the time with my family and the memories we'll have for the rest of our lives. It's hard to put a price on that!Well said!

[locutus]

But those memories will be yours regardless no matter how you paid for it. And by the way Disney is again offering free admissions for length of your stay at Liberty Travel.

[MidnTPK]

But those memories will be yours regardless no matter how you paid for it. And by the way Disney is again offering free admissions for length of your stay at Liberty Travel.
That's not accurate....Liberty is offering the same buy 4 get 3 free that every Disney outlet is currently offering. Not a free 7 day pass for everyone on your reservation, but get a 7 day pass when you buy a 4 day one, a whopping $9.58 (3.8%) discount per person for tickets.