Fast Pass System Flaw

[casey@bat]

My friend told me the following about FP's and a cast member confirmed it to my husband:

Fast Passes can be used anytime after the starting time. The ending time doesn't matter. So if you miss your specified hour to ride it doesn't matter. Just come anytime.

If this is true, and we did do it once, then this would mess up the system. I guess this is why the FP lines had 20 minute waits sometimes. The whole purpose is to only have "so" many people coming back at certain times.

I am sure this varies with cast members. I think they should enforce the hour time on your FP.

[BMan62]

This has been the case since day one. As long as you return the same day and after the start time of the FastPass, you will almost always be allowed on the ride.

Now, there have been a few comments where people have said that some CMs WILL check the end time for the FastPass and hold you to it, but they are few and far between.

[DZNYGUY]

I definitely agree with Casey on this one, you should be held to the time on your FP ticket.

That being said, there are instances where some compassion can/should be shown. I don't have children but it is my understanding that they have the tendancy to delay things that can not be forseen from time to time!

In conclusion, maybe the time printed +30 or so?...

[DANAM]

Honestly, I don't think that many people know this. We have been within 10 min of missing our time and didn't try to use the passes. It wasn't until a couple of months ago that I even found out you can do that.

[Imagineer1981]

Yes, most people do not know about this. For the most part it holds true, but if you are hours late, many CMs will at least question you about it. The end time is not firm because Disney does not want to cause controversy if you were late because your kid got sick, you were stuck at dinner, a tram, on another ride too long, etc. Its easier just to say ok. Returning at the specified time is in your best interest as the line will be less during that time because you are already accounted for. Every -100-150 people (depending on the attraction) FP clicks forward 5 minutes. When you come back later, you add (x)number of people in addition to that total, making FP lines longer. Also FP could get backed up due to breakdowns or poor CM regualtion of FP/Stand by lines

[disneymom15]

I actually like the fact that if we miss our time we can use it later. We always try to meet the FP return time, but on occasion we've been in line for something else and it's nice to know we can still use it later.

[Babe the Blue Ox]

I use a lot of FastPasses on my trips and very rarely use them within their window. I prefer to collect the passes during the morning and early afternoon hours when the parks are not too awful busy and then use them late afternoon/early evening when the place is jammed. With a family of 5, we will often accumulate 25-30 passes (5 or 6 sets) before using any of them.

I have never, ever been questioned about this by an employee. In fact, the employees very rarely even count the passes when we turn them in.

My estimation is that I used about 30 sets of FastPasses on a recent trip. At least 25 of them were used outside of their one hour window. Only twice were they even counted to see if I really had five of them.

[NJGIRL]

While I will agree that there are some times when being late can't be avoided but as someone already posted when you don't go at your assigned time that makes everyone's wait time longer even your own.

[WDWdriver]

Returning at the specified time is in your best interest as the line will be less during that time because you are already accounted for.

Exactly right. Imagine what an attraction's FP queue might look like if, for example, a thousand guests waited until after the parade to use their expired FastPasses. The FP line might suddenly become longer than the Standby line.

Also, the practice of allowing late returns is completely unofficial. It is not a guarantee. In fact the CMs at Soarin' have been known to turn away late arriving guests on busy days.

It's always best to return during the window printed on your FP. This helps the CMs keep the lines manageable, and might possibly help you avoid inconvenience or embarrassment.

[badkitty]

I would imagine that many fastpasses go unused during the day so I don't think that the few people returning past their "allotted" time are making that big of a difference on the fastpass line. If a CM wants to let them through who am I to argue? Besides, I wouldn't want to be the CM who has to decide who has the legitimate excuse for being "late".

[beksy]

I love fastpass! Our last trip was the first time we had been there since they were put in and I loved using them. We knew about the return times being overlooked somewhat but always tried to get back in the time frame. I think we were only late once and the CM didn't want an explanation or anything. Of course earlier that day, same ride, we got there two minutes early and the CM watched us checking our watches, the return times, etc. repeatedly and just standing there. Finally, while laughing at us, he took pity and said you do realize it is only 30 seconds early? It'll take you that long to walk the rest of the way to the line! He let us on through. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting people in a little late. Things come up, especially with little kids and bathroom breaks/snack breaks/etc. It should still be the same day though like now.

[DANAM]

Of course earlier that day, same ride, we got there two minutes early and the CM watched us checking our watches, the return times, etc. repeatedly and just standing there. Finally, while laughing at us, he took pity and said you do realize it is only 30 seconds early? It'll take you that long to walk the rest of the way to the line! He let us on through. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting people in a little late. Things come up, especially with little kids and bathroom breaks/snack breaks/etc. It should still be the same day though like now.

We have done the same thing. I think the CM's get a kick out of it. They normally will let us go a couple minutes early.

[Kisobel]

i guess i have to disagree. i think this isn't a flaw but a blessing. and i don't think if you miss your window you are messing up wait times. how many times have you gotten a fast pass and never used it? at least a few. things come up- meltdowns. when i don't use my fast pass in the window printed that means some lucky person in the standby line gets to wait less.

kate

[Seasonscraps]

I never understood that "policy" but it's in keeping with Disney's avoid scenes with guests at all costs even though it's at the expense of people that follow the rules. It's also in keeping with people making sure they get theres these days.

I never thought it was that difficult to get back to the ride within the hour window printed on the FP ticket. If my FP return time is 1:10 - 2:10, I dont try to squeeze in another ride at 1:00 on the other side of the park. If the scheduled return window is 12:15-1:15 and I have a 12:00 ADR, I don't take the FP. I have been to Disney at least a dozen times and can count on one hand the number of times I got stuck on a ride that brokedown.

[Grim Grinning Marathon Runner]

While I will agree that there are some times when being late can't be avoided but as someone already posted when you don't go at your assigned time that makes everyone's wait time longer even your own.
But wouldn't that make there no net change?

If I have just one fastpass for a 1 hour window and I don't go during that 1 hour, I've sped up the line during that hour by one person.

Then, if I go 45 minutes after the end of the time, I've slowed the line down by one person, thereby making a net change of no lost time.

I also like being able to use a FP after the time window, for the same reason as a previous poster with a larger family.

[katzctkpt]

We have known this for years and was hoping it would remain more of a secret !! Just kidding......We have NEVER been questioned as to the time of our passes, EVER !! We have used them many multiple hours later, and not to beat the system, but we did it because a CM told us years ago that we could do it....I'm sure it'll change eventually, but for now it's a good thing....:mickey:

[casey@bat]

But wouldn't that make there no net change?

If I have just one fastpass for a 1 hour window and I don't go during that 1 hour, I've sped up the line during that hour by one person.

Then, if I go 45 minutes after the end of the time, I've slowed the line down by one person, thereby making a net change of no lost time.

I also like being able to use a FP after the time window, for the same reason as a previous poster with a larger family.


Maybe you did speed up the line by not going during your time. The problem is if lots of people hold on to their passes until late afternoon then the FP lines are twice as long as they should be. This is what we experienced 2 weeks ago. In the past the fast pass lines have had little or no wait at all. You could walk all the way to the front of the line and then wait to be told to get on. Lines were out on the streets this time. I couldn't believe it.

There would not be a net change of no lost time. It doesn't work that way.

The times will have to be enforced if the system is going to work.

Like a previous posters, we are never late for our time. We plan on being there at the beginning of our time so we won't be late. We were late once after we found out your could do that but I felt really bad about it!

[elmjimmlm]

I would imagine that many fastpasses go unused during the day

I think that this is very true...There have been many times when our fast pass time would be late in the day and we would not even be in that park by the return time...We have given ours to other people in the parks though...

[Belster]

After many times at the world we just were told on our last trip that we could come later..mind you that was after running to Everest from another location in the park to make our end time. We must have looked really dumb.

It was nice to know but I would agree it cramps the line a bit.

[Babe the Blue Ox]

Using FastPasses after their "return window" was outlined in the Unofficial Guide back in 2001,eight years ago. This is nothing new and should not be considered a "flaw" in the system.

[badkitty]

Maybe you did speed up the line by not going during your time. The problem is if lots of people hold on to their passes until late afternoon then the FP lines are twice as long as they should be. This is what we experienced 2 weeks ago. In the past the fast pass lines have had little or no wait at all. You could walk all the way to the front of the line and then wait to be told to get on. Lines were out on the streets this time. I couldn't believe it.

There would not be a net change of no lost time. It doesn't work that way.

The times will have to be enforced if the system is going to work.

Like a previous posters, we are never late for our time. We plan on being there at the beginning of our time so we won't be late. We were late once after we found out your could do that but I felt really bad about it!

I really believe that if you experienced long lines in the fastpass line two weeks ago it wasn't because lots of people were holding on to their fastpasses until the afternoon. For the number of people who visit the parks, I think very few probably make a decided effort to "hold" their passes after their return time. If your lines were long, it was because the park was busy and the CM were letting the stand-by line go through a little bit more. A fastpass doesn't automatically give you immediate access to the ride. It only shortens the wait time. I have been in fastpass lines and held up so that stand-bys could go through. I really don't mind. They have been waiting a very long time.

As another poster said, this has been happening for years.

[Giggy]

I think the point is that it is allowed because there can be situations that stop people being there at the right time. However it isn't a policy made public for two reasons:

A. They don't want too many people taking advantage of the system, if everyone did it then the line could get out of hand late on.

B. They aren't obliged to let people on outside their time. If the fastpass line is very busy already and someone arrives several hours late for no reason the CM can (and have on rare occasion I think have) turn them away. In such a situation there guest has no grounds for complaint as they didn't use the fastpass correctly.

As such use it in the spirit that if you are allowed on late consider it a bonus. Don't if you turn up deliberately late expect that they have to let you on. If nothing else because the first attitude makes everyone feel happier. :mickey:

[JPL]

This is nothing new at all. Basically for the kost part is has a very minimal effect on the system. It was calculated into the overall operations to allow guests to arrive later than their time for several reasons.

1. Delayed buses, monorails, boats etc.
2. Attractions going down for periods of time.
3. Longer waits at dining locations.
4. Park Traffic and parades.

You really need to remember the intention of the FP system to realize why Disney allows this to occur. FP was not only designed for you to get on a ride faster, it was designed to give you more time to spend money in the parks. The idea was simple people waitng upwards of an hour to ride Splash Mountain are not able to spend any money while they are in line. Letting them wait outside the ride allows them the time to shop or buy a snack while they are waiting for their time to ride. In the beginning FP was simply holding your place in line while you opened your wallet. So if you had at 5:10 - 6:10 FP time you might decide to skip that big sit down dinner if Disney held you to the time and you really wanted to ride that attraction.

The Biggest Flaw in the system right now is the CMs who do not know how to properly manage the Stand By to FP ratio like they use to. If you remember when FP started the CM at split would have a counter and click through a certain number of FP riders followed by a certain number of stand by riders. Some how it seems they are all told to give FP priority over stand by 100%.

[DizneyRox]

When Fastpass was first introduced, it was supposed to be FP first, and when the FP line is empty, start letting standbys through. I'm not sure if it was ever officially changed, I know that they started doing what JPL said shortly after it went live.

It's always irked me, I do think the FP line should be given a priority. That's also assuming that they aren'y feeding out FPs at 100% of the ride capacity per hour. If it's at 85% or so then it should work.

The lines haven't shrunk because of fastpass, that's for sure. People still continue to wait crazy times for the big thrills. Me, unless I FP it, I don't ride it, of course unless the standby in manageable.

[WDWdriver]

The current entrance ratio for most attractions is 80/20 at the merge point, meaning 80 guests from the FP queue, followed by 20 from the standby queue. And while hand counters are not used, the CM at the merge point doesn't have to be a genius to maintain approximately that ratio.

But that's not the only factor (and here's where understanding the system gets difficult). Managers can adjust the FP distribution rate per hour based on forecast estimates of park attendance. Therefore, on a very busy day the FP machines may be spewing out more tickets for a given return window than on a slower day. More returns in any given hour means longer waits in the FP queue. And here is where it becomes a delicate balance. If every guest with a FP returns during his window, then his wait on a busy day will be longer than normal but still reasonable. But if a significant number of guests are returning outside of their window then the FP wait gets uncomfortably long. At this point the merge point CM is in a box. He can stick to 80/20 and listen to complaints from FP guests, or he can go to 100% FP and cause a riot in the standby queue. Any CM will tell you we don't get paid enough to deal with situations like this.

[Goes4FastPass]

If allowing people to arrive later than their FP return time makes a day at a WDW park a tiny bit less what-time-do-we-to-be-where driven I'm 1000% for it.

[Seasonscraps]

If allowing people to arrive later than their FP return time makes a day at a WDW park a tiny bit less what-time-do-we-to-be-where driven I'm 1000% for it.

If people don't want to have to be places at a certain time, they don't have to take a fast pass which is basically an ADR for rides.

[casey@bat]

The current entrance ratio for most attractions is 80/20 at the merge point, meaning 80 guests from the FP queue, followed by 20 from the standby queue. And while hand counters are not used, the CM at the merge point doesn't have to be a genius to maintain approximately that ratio.

But that's not the only factor (and here's where understanding the system gets difficult). Managers can adjust the FP distribution rate per hour based on forecast estimates of park attendance. Therefore, on a very busy day the FP machines may be spewing out more tickets for a given return window than on a slower day. More returns in any given hour means longer waits in the FP queue. And here is where it becomes a delicate balance. If every guest with a FP returns during his window, then his wait on a busy day will be longer than normal but still reasonable. But if a significant number of guests are returning outside of their window then the FP wait gets uncomfortably long. At this point the merge point CM is in a box. He can stick to 80/20 and listen to complaints from FP guests, or he can go to 100% FP and cause a riot in the standby queue. Any CM will tell you we don't get paid enough to deal with situations like this.


Very interesting!

Thanks!

[goofysbabe]

My 2 cents - I think so many FP go unused that it all evens out - I know I've been at the parks and had to leave, we tried to give FP to others, and more times than not people would not take them, so my FP for that time period went unused. So I think it all evens out. I've used FP after the time I was suppose to and have encountered short & long lines. I think alot of people on here get excited about the craziest things - your on vacation relax go with the flow, stop worrying about things you can't control and have a good time, your at Disney for heavens sake. Just about everything that Disney offers is open to everyone so take advantage of it. And in closing if it were a HUGE problem they would address it and fix it.

[badkitty]

I am glad the FP is free.

[BluewaterBrad]

I use a lot of FastPasses on my trips and very rarely use them within their window. I prefer to collect the passes during the morning and early afternoon hours when the parks are not too awful busy and then use them late afternoon/early evening when the place is jammed. With a family of 5, we will often accumulate 25-30 passes (5 or 6 sets) before using any of them.

I have never, ever been questioned about this by an employee. In fact, the employees very rarely even count the passes when we turn them in.

My estimation is that I used about 30 sets of FastPasses on a recent trip. At least 25 of them were used outside of their one hour window. Only twice were they even counted to see if I really had five of them.



This exact comment is what is wrong in America.

[gerald72]

I use a lot of FastPasses on my trips and very rarely use them within their window. I prefer to collect the passes during the morning and early afternoon hours when the parks are not too awful busy and then use them late afternoon/early evening when the place is jammed. With a family of 5, we will often accumulate 25-30 passes (5 or 6 sets) before using any of them.

I have never, ever been questioned about this by an employee. In fact, the employees very rarely even count the passes when we turn them in.

My estimation is that I used about 30 sets of FastPasses on a recent trip. At least 25 of them were used outside of their one hour window. Only twice were they even counted to see if I really had five of them.


That's what I do. That system works great. No sense getting a fastpass at 8am and using it at 9am when the lines are still short. And it's all within the rules.
Or rack up a bunch of fastpasses at one park, hop to another after noon, get a few more and use them, then back to the original park in the evening to use the ones from that morning.

[gerald72]

I also have many fastpasses from each trip that are unused.
They make nice free souvenirs.

[Babe the Blue Ox]

This exact comment is what is wrong in America.

You have got to be kidding me. I don't think there is anything wrong with maximizing your time while on vacation.

[Goes4FastPass]

If people don't want to have to be places at a certain time, they don't have to take a fast pass which is basically an ADR for rides.
If people want to spend their entire Disney park visit standing in lines they don't have to take a fast pass.

[Goes4FastPass]

...adjust the FP distribution rate per hour ... spewing out more tickets for a given return window ...longer waits in the FP queue...FP wait gets uncomfortably long....a riot in the standby queue...

Hearing this from a CM viewpoint, it sounds like a hassle.

From a guest it certainly doesn't sound like a vacation.

[KAJUNKING]

Using FastPasses after their "return window" was outlined in the Unofficial Guide back in 2001,eight years ago. This is nothing new and should not be considered a "flaw" in the system.

:ditto: i agree! its just not that big of a deal

[BluewaterBrad]

You have got to be kidding me. I don't think there is anything wrong with maximizing your time while on vacation.

Your right bro. I overreacted. Sorry, was having a bad day!!:mickey:

[Ian]

I don't believe this is a "flaw", but rather the way the system was intentionally designed.

There are any number of issues that can arise that are beyond your control that would result in you missing your Fastpass window.

Disney has, quite logically, accomodated for that as a part of the program.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Seasonscraps]

Using FastPasses after their "return window" was outlined in the Unofficial Guide back in 2001,eight years ago. This is nothing new and should not be considered a "flaw" in the system.

I could write "DIsney Christine's Way" saying you can pool hop at most resorts and bring old mugs back because the CM's won't stop you but that doesn't make it true.*

IMO, if Disney really intended to let guests return whenever they want, the system would have allowed for multiple fast passes from the get go. It was when the Soarin' return windows were several hours away that the system was modified to allow for multiple fast passes.

Sure, you'd be hard pressed to find CMs tell guests they can't do something pretty innocent but I think the original intent of the fast pass was to use them during the return window that as stated on the ticket.





*disclaimer...I dont do this nor would I suggest it as way of skirting disney rules.

[Babe the Blue Ox]

Would someone mind printing or copying the wording from the back of a FastPass into this thread. I use all of mine and don't keep any extras.

Recalling from memory, I believe that it says that the pass is not valid before the start of the return window and is also not valid on any date other than the day issue.

While this is purposely vague, it does seem to imply what the Guide Books have stated - FastPasses do not expire until the end of the day in which they were issued.

This is part of my plan and has been for several years.

[Seasonscraps]

Word for word:


Please enter the FASTPASS entrance at the attraction between the times printed on the other side.

Cannot accept early arrivals. Valid only on the date printed.

Operating hours of the attraction are subject to change without notice.

Attraction may close temporarily without notification.

Not valid for admission to any theme park.

All posted height restrictions apply for each attraction.

Non transferrable.


That seems clear to me. I agree there should be some room for flexibility like ride break downs, but they should be exceptions not the rule.

[Babe the Blue Ox]

Word for word:



That seems clear to me. I agree there should be some room for flexibility like ride break downs, but they should be exceptions not the rule.

Yes, that's it. Thanks for sharing. It still doesn't explain why cast members are trained to honor passes through the end of the day, why they tell guests that ask that they are good through the end of the day, or why they have been doing this for years.

The one hour window may seem like it should be the rule but it's not. It's not a flaw or a secret. It's not some sort of abuse of the system by those trying to get away with something. It's just the way it is.

[DizneyRox]

As I mentioned, this is policy to accept them after the ride window. If you want to check it out, operating manuals were leaked to the Internet a few years ago, and they outlined many policies and procedures for many of the attractions. EVERY fastpass chapter indicated that fastpasses ARE to be honored part the ride window, but they are instructed to tell people to return between the times.

[Ian]

If the wording on the pass indicates that they're accepted after the end of the window.

While it politely asks you to return during the one hour window, it specifically excludes returning before the window opens.

However, it does not specifically exclude returning after the window.

From a legality standpoint in terms of the wording, I think that's significant.

[BMan62]

If the wording on the pass indicates that they're accepted after the end of the window.

While it politely asks you to return during the one hour window, it specifically excludes returning before the window opens.

However, it does not specifically exclude returning after the window.

From a legality standpoint in terms of the wording, I think that's significant.

There is a difference, however, between legality and common courtesy.

Common courtesy would dictate that you would endeavor to return within the window stated on the slip, or a reasonable time afterward. Four or more hours after the stated ONE HOUR window is NOT reasonable.

There are so many other threads on this site about how people are rude in other respects - smoking, misting, line jumping, etc. - Why is this any different?

[TikiLounger]

I find this thread very interesting. We have been using Fast Passes for years and we have always made sure to return within the times printed on them or not at all. This information definitely changes how we'll plan our days, next time around.

[irish1967]

Two thoughts:

1) My basic philosophy is that the Disney organization spends a lot of time and money on time management research. It seems obvious to me that making our best effort to return during the stated fast pass time ultimately means that the park will function more smoothly for everyone visiting the parks, including ourselves.

2) Despite the wording on the back of the FPs, I think that Disney has every right to decide to enforce both ends of the time frame. I would hate to think how my day would end up if I collected FPs for several attractions only to find out at the end of the day that management has, for whatever reason, decided to enforce return times.

[Babe the Blue Ox]

There are so many other threads on this site about how people are rude in other respects - smoking, misting, line jumping, etc. - Why is this any different?


Whoa. Comparing the use a FastPasses within the established guidelines to smokers and line jumpers may be a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

[Babe the Blue Ox]

2) Despite the wording on the back of the FPs, I think that Disney has every right to decide to enforce both ends of the time frame. I would hate to think how my day would end up if I collected FPs for several attractions only to find out at the end of the day that management has, for whatever reason, decided to enforce return times.

Sure, Disney has the right to do this, but they have chosen not to over the past several years. I'd say that it's likely that the current policy will stay in effect into the future.

And by the way, those who play FastPass Poker don't wait until the end of the day to use them all. This is considered to be wasting the passes as the lines are usually very short later in the evenings. The preferred method is to use them all in the late afternoon or early evening when the parks are really crowded.

[Goes4FastPass]

I don't understand some people getting so worked up about this.

WDW asks a lot of us as guest-customers. After all we do in terms of reservations, travel, ADRs etc. etc. we cannot "experience" a popular attraction without a long wait unless we physically go to that attraction twice: once to get a FastPass then again to finally go on the ride.

We try to return in the hour specified. If we return a bit later is the whole complicated cosmic workings of the park into crushed endless anarchy?

Heavens!

Some people put their foot on the grass because the sign says not to but others seem to go to the opposite extreme, they respond to everything they read or hear or is repeated to them as "it's a woowul!"

I try to follow the WDW rules. I take my little ones for potty breaks before we queue up but please let me use my FastPassses without a stopwatch and mad dashes across theme parks.

[ThanxForNoticin]

If the wording on the pass indicates that they're accepted after the end of the window.

While it politely asks you to return during the one hour window, it specifically excludes returning before the window opens.

However, it does not specifically exclude returning after the window.

From a legality standpoint in terms of the wording, I think that's significant.

I find this thread interesting, and I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. Personally, we return during the designated window of time.

I see attention given to what the FP says on the back, but I tend to focus what it says on the FRONT. If the time window on the front is between noon and 1:00 PM, that to me indicates we have a full 60 minutes to take advantage of the FP. If the 'window' didn't matter at all, Disney could have FPs say "return after 12:00 noon" - but they don't. They request you return during a particular hour.

If a FP is used a little late because a meal ran long or another ride ran long, I don't think it's a big deal. But to each their own for how they want to use them. If Disney allows it, then so be it - but then perhaps they really should eliminate the return time on the pass.

[joonyer]

WOW! :rolleyes: talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

Obviously, park magaement cares little or nothing about guests using FP's after the window. They actually train the CM's according to this policy.

I think the horse is dead enough. :beat:

[gerald72]

Okay, my analogies don't always work, but let's try one:

If I am driving to a popular tourist attraction, the quickest way to get there might be through the local town.
But the signs posted on the highway might suggest that I take a different route.
That doesn't mean that I HAVE to go the way the signs tell me. I am stil allowed to go the alternate route, it's just that that route can't handle the majority of traffic.
So, if you have a better way of doing something- do it.

I liked the post that mentioned about Staying off the grass. Some people will go out of their way to do exactly what they are told.

[Ian]

There is a difference, however, between legality and common courtesy.

Common courtesy would dictate that you would endeavor to return within the window stated on the slip, or a reasonable time afterward. Four or more hours after the stated ONE HOUR window is NOT reasonable.

There are so many other threads on this site about how people are rude in other respects - smoking, misting, line jumping, etc. - Why is this any different?Actually I don't see common courtesy entering into this discussion at all. There's nothing "discourteous" about coming back after your Fastpass window expires.

And for the record, I disagree with most of the other "zero tolerance" approaches to those other topics you referenced.

I honestly can't fathom why people let themselves get so twisted up about such pointless, idiotic, irrelevant stuff. There are so many things in life worth getting worked up over and this ain't one of them.


I see attention given to what the FP says on the back, but I tend to focus what it says on the FRONT. If the time window on the front is between noon and 1:00 PM, that to me indicates we have a full 60 minutes to take advantage of the FP. If the 'window' didn't matter at all, Disney could have FPs say "return after 12:00 noon" - but they don't. They request you return during a particular hour.Actually, I think they suggest you return during a particular hour.

That's the way I read it.

And, as joonyer has already quite eloquently pointed out, this is the biggest mountains made out of the tiniest molehill that I've ever, in my entire life, come across.

Ergo, I'm finished commenting on it. If people want to waste time obsessing and getting worked up over stuff like this, so be it.

Me? I tend to extend the benefit of the doubt to my fellow vacationers and, quite frankly, really don't care if they end up in front of me in one line or another. I'll get on the ride eventually and, if I don't, I'll be back again in six months anyway. Odds are I've ridden the ride about a hundred times more than they have, so maybe it's discourteous of me to be in front of them in the first place.

[kdsjjb]

Actually, I think they suggest you return during a particular hour.

That's the way I read it.



Nope. I'm looking at my Fast Pass now, and on the front it states: "Return Anytime Between" It doesnt say Return Anytime After

Just because it states "Please" on the back doesn't make it a suggestion.

It's crystal clear what they are for, and when they want you to return. I dont really care who does what, but don't try to justify your actions by claiming some hocus pocus legality, and claiming that you "read" it differently.

People make their own choices, and thats fine, but man up and say what you really think. Which is "I do it this way and I dont care what you say. I'm looking out for number 1"

[Stickey]

The FP return time is a guideline, not a rule.
Returning at a time outside of the 60 minute window does not result in the destruction of the FP system by creating substantially longer FP lines nor does it deny someone the opportunity to experience a particular ride.

Disney must evaluate the efficiency of the FP system on a regular basis. If the allowance of returns beyond the stated window was a serious issue, then enforcement would be likely. It is apparent that Disney chooses not to enforce the return window based on a larger desire to enhance guest satisfaction, while also reducing CM-guest confrontations. If the one hour window was strictly enforced, would CM's be required to provide permission slips to guests if ride waits exceeded the posted time, if a ride was broken-down, if a ride was delayed due to handicapped loading/unloading, if a qs line was excessive, if there was a restroom line....

How would the FP queue be if everyone rushed back at the end of their window? You would be likely to see a FP rush at both the beginning and end of the 60 minute window. Currently, the larger problem occurs when people block the FP return entrance PRIOR TO their return time.

[Goes4FastPass]

What if a person returns with a FastPass after the hour window and is wearing jorts?

What does a person say when they visit WDW and special order artwork to be delivered to their home? "Someday my prints will come."

[Imagineer1981]

The current entrance ratio for most attractions is 80/20 at the merge point, meaning 80 guests from the FP queue, followed by 20 from the standby queue. And while hand counters are not used, the CM at the merge point doesn't have to be a genius to maintain approximately that ratio.

But that's not the only factor (and here's where understanding the system gets difficult). Managers can adjust the FP distribution rate per hour based on forecast estimates of park attendance. Therefore, on a very busy day the FP machines may be spewing out more tickets for a given return window than on a slower day. More returns in any given hour means longer waits in the FP queue. And here is where it becomes a delicate balance. If every guest with a FP returns during his window, then his wait on a busy day will be longer than normal but still reasonable. But if a significant number of guests are returning outside of their window then the FP wait gets uncomfortably long. At this point the merge point CM is in a box. He can stick to 80/20 and listen to complaints from FP guests, or he can go to 100% FP and cause a riot in the standby queue. Any CM will tell you we don't get paid enough to deal with situations like this.

Exactly, we were always told at Space Mountain merge point it was a 4/1 ratio(80/20) of FP/standby. Thats how it is to be done. Now as WDWdriver said, sometimes more can be pumped out within the hour on a busier day, so we would basically be told, make sure the FP line isn't backing up. There were times on occasion, especially if we had both sides running at Space (which we would on a busy day), that I would essentially empty the FP line, even if it was a 10/1 ratio, just to get it light again. While guests up at merge point got a little irritated the ones behind them had no idea, and actually by having FP be emptier, their line moved much quicker because they weren't being stopped for FP. I actually got a lot of props from managers for how I used to clear out FP and keep guests happy

[joonyer]

This issue is still a molehill, Disney officially doesn't care, and they train their CMs not to care.

And the horse can't get any deader.

[casey@bat]

This is the most replies I have ever gotten to a thread I started.

All the information from the CM's is very interesting. It is neat to find out how things work at Disney!

After reading all the replies, I think that the FP lines were long because the CM's controlling them weren't doing a good job.

I think the people who seem to be getting heated may just be mad that they didn't know this was possible. I don't like the idea of it. But on my next trip I will NOT bust my tail to get back to a ride in an hour. I don't think I will save up several to use in the afternoon. But I will definately relax a little more next time.

We have never been late for an ADR either so I am wondering: Do they let you come to your ressie 2 hours late if you were stuck on the bus, ride, etc.?

[Ian]

The next time I go to WDW I'm going to get a Fastpass for Space Mountain, return after the one hour window expires, hold a place for my wife in daughter in line while they go use the bathroom, and spray the guy standing behind me with my misting fan.

[DizneyRox]

The next time I go to WDW I'm going to get a Fastpass for Space Mountain, return after the one hour window expires, hold a place for my wife in daughter in line while they go use the bathroom, and spray the guy standing behind me with my misting fan.

Fine, as long as you leave your old refillable mug at home! :thumbsup:

[casey@bat]

The next time I go to WDW I'm going to get a Fastpass for Space Mountain, return after the one hour window expires, hold a place for my wife in daughter in line while they go use the bathroom, and spray the guy standing behind me with my misting fan.

Have someone else from your family save all 20 of you a seat at the parade and wear your Jorts!
:mickey:

[Ian]

Fine, as long as you leave your old refillable mug at home! :thumbsup:Not only am I bringing my old refillable mug from Dixie Landings, but I'm going to drink the soda in it while I wait in line!

I might even lean on one of the signs that says, "No eating or drinking" while I do it, too!


Have someone else from your family save all 20 of you a seat at the parade and wear your Jorts!
:mickey:Well ... I'll definitely have someone saving us 20 parade places (probably by using a combination of ponchos, sweatshirts, and strollers), but you'll never catch me dead in a pair of jorts. ;)

[Goes4FastPass]

I keep hearing people say they enjoy a Dole Whip when they're waiting for their FastPass return time.

What's a Dole Whip? Is it good?

[Mousemates]

Not only am I bringing my old refillable mug from Dixie Landings, but I'm going to drink the soda in it while I wait in line!

I might even lean on one of the signs that says, "No eating or drinking" while I do it, too!

To complete the circuit you will want to remove chewing gum from your mouth, stick it on the underside of a handrail and stuff your childrens shoes with toilet paper to make them tall enough to ride before sipping from your refillable mug.

[Goes4FastPass]

Is FastPass open for Le Cellier when MGM Studios has MVMNSSHCP?

[Babe the Blue Ox]

How much does a FastPass cost? I see them for sale on Ebay all the time.

[Goes4FastPass]

How much does a FastPass cost? I see them for sale on Ebay all the time.

FastPasses purchased on Ebay have confusing dates. The ones I bought said, "Good Tomorrow". Everytime Itried to use one the CM told me, "Come back tomorrow."

[seanyred]

I keep hearing people say they enjoy a Dole Whip when they're waiting for their FastPass return time.

What's a Dole Whip? Is it good?

Thats like asking if the ocean has water in it...

[Mufasa]

I thought I should add some background information on Fastpass and also clarify a few statements that were made earlier in this thread.

Fastpass is a line-reservation system and the concept itself isn't really anything new- for example, they were using line-reservation tickets at the 1964 World's Fair in New York as part of a queue management system.

The simplest queue management system could be nothing more than the "take a number" setup at your local deli counter.

Fastpass offers improvements over other "virtual" line management systems in that it can dynamically adjust to operating conditions based on demand and capacity which I'll explain later.

As such, it also allows the attraction to operate more efficiently by metering demand.

To provide a visual, imagine a large bucket. At the bottom of the bucket is a hole so if you poured water into the bucket it would start to leak out- that would represent the attraction's loading capacity (you can only fit so many riders onto the attraction at a particular time).

The overall capacity of the bucket if it were completely filled to the top and with no leaks would represent the theoretical hourly ride capacity (or THRC).

If you had no Fastpass in operation, you would be filling that bucket erratically- perhaps one minute you'd be adding a cup of water, the next minute might only be a few drops. Because of all this fluctuation, sometimes you might wind up with an empty bucket (capacity outweighs the demand) while other times you might be pouring too much water in and the bucket starts to overflow or back-up.

Now a lot is made of this 80/20 ratio of reserving Fastpass to standby capacity. And there was mention that management can tweak the fastpass distribution rate (the number of tickets passed out at a particular time)- that's partially correct.

Now I've talked about THRC- that's the ride capacity in theory, assuming perfect conditions, the maximum number of vehicles on a track, all being sent out completely full and at the shortest dispatch interval possible to be safe.

In reality, what we use for Fastpass calculation is the OHRC or Operational Hourly Ride Capacity. This is what can fluctuate from day to day- in theory, on a busier day you can add more trains (to a certain point) to try and meet demand. Also if you have more CM staffing, hopefully they can load and move people along more efficiently so you try and get those dispatch intervals as low as possible.

As a safe bet, on the busiest days you try and aim for a target of 90% or so of the THRC. So if a ride on paper can handle 2,000 guests an hour, a realistic target for OHRC (if all things are working smoothly) might be 1,800 guests an hour.

[Mufasa]

Now I can get to the dynamic allocation part of Fastpass.

See, on paper you might think there's a maximum number of fastpass tickets that we can distribute per hour- that would be 80% of our ride capacity right? So 1,800 riders an hour- that means once we hand out 1,440 tickets then we move on to the next hour right?

It's not that simple. See, we use the standby wait time to meter out just how many fastpasses we can pass out per time interval.

We base everything off of an hour wait in standby.

See it all gets thrown into this formula (a little simplified as there are other factors that can be plugged in also)

g=number of guests carried (the attraction's hourly rider capacity)
x=guest count survey time in minutes (the current standby wait time)
z=percentage of capacity for attraction sent to the system (how much of the attraction's capacity is dedicated to Fastpass?)
p=ticket increment period in minutes (how we increment the return window time). For, example if it's 5 minutes we figure it's a fairly fast loading attraction. For a theater show we'd probably raise this value.

((g*z)/x) * p=dispense rate setting

So, for example if we have a 60 minute wait, and knowing we have 1,800 guests as our OHRC

((1800 * 0.8) / 60) * 5

That means for every 120 fastpass tickets we hand out, increment the return time window by 5 minutes.

So what if we see that the standby wait (the current demand on the attraction) is only say a half hour. Well, plug that into the formula and you see that we can now pass out 240 tickets at a time before we increment the return time window by 5 minutes- since we have unused capacity on the ride.

So if the standby wait time turns out to be 2 hours- you'll see that we half the number of fastpass tickets that we pass out before we bump up the return time interval.

The point is that the number of fastpass tickets handed out at a given moment isn't a fixed value that gets set by management- it actually changes as it reflects on the demand on the attraction that that time. The values that management can tweak are things like the ride's capacity (OHRC) based on the projections they make that day and then Fastpass calculates the appropriate ticket distribution rate and just how many total Fastpasses are available that day (which changes throughout the day).

Likewise, if suddenly say we decrease our ride capacity (say we have two loading platforms and two tracks, and one track has to be shutdown for maintenance). Our ride capacity can be adjusted in the formula and we can adjust the fastpass distribution rate to reflect the actual ride capacity and give an accurate standby return time.

So measuring the standby return times is important to be plugged into the formula so we can manage the demand on the attraction.

So looking at all of this from a big picture perspective- once your return window has opened, we've figured you've waited out your time in line and realistically whether you return on time or not doesn't have a huge impact on the wait time for others. If there's a sudden flood of guests returning to the attraction and fastpasses are still available to be handed out, then it gets reflected in the fastpass distribution rate.

On busier days, as more people line up in standby and that wait increases the system slows down the fastpass distribution rate (there are less fastpasses to be given out that day) because there is a constant demand on the attraction.

Also, as part of the algorithms that drive fastpass- we can also plug in a certain allocation for unused "no-show" fastpasses. We know from experience that a certain percentage of people will grab a FP but not use them, so we can also build in a buffer into the formula to account for this.

You could also go further and tweak the algorithms to take into account time of day demand fluctuations around say meal time rushes and lulls, or after-parade surges but this in reality this isn't necessary as it doesn't make a huge statistical difference.

Some resorts like Tokyo do adhere very strictly to the return window for Fastpass.

[DizneyRox]

So then if I'm reading this correctly, why did they change the load process from FP first, then standby, to some [apparently] random ratio? I do see CMs looking at some information when managing this, so I assume it's not really random.

It seems that the standby is already factored into the equation, so they should be able to get in, eventually.

This would also seem to give more importance to the FP system and maybe force guests to take advantage of it and get them back into the shops and restaurants spending more money.

[WDWdriver]

Uh oh!

We have attracted Mufasa's attention. I knew we were rambling on for too long on this topic.

Seriously, thanks for the detailed input, Mufasa. The only thing I would add is that the OHRC for attractions I have worked on seems to be set unrealistically high. Even with our best CMs at load and unload we rarely achieve an hourly OHRC.

[Seasonscraps]

Mufasa - thank you for taking the time to type all that out for us.

If I am understanding this correctly...

For this formula to work, the stand by wait time has to be reasonably accurate which is not always the case. I once got on the line for either SplashMtn or Big Thunder Mtn with a posted stand by time of 40 minutes but it was really a 90 minute wait. I'm not sure how common this is since I usually go during off season and pretty much walk onto rides with out fast pass.

Also, the adjustment to fast pass distribution based on current standby wait times impacts riders at the return window, not at the current time. It will self correct later in the day but the guests on the stand by line at the time are waiting longer then they should.

[Ian]

I once got on the line for either SplashMtn or Big Thunder Mtn with a posted stand by time of 40 minutes but it was really a 90 minute wait.This is very rarely the case and almost always due to some unforeen circumstance like a ride breakdown, sudden ride capacity reduction, "protein spill", or loading more handicapped guests than normal.

Disney works very hard to keep the wait times on the signs well ahead of the actual wait times (under-promise, over-deliver), so the far more typical scenario is that you wait 20 minutes in a line with a posted wait time of 40 minutes.

[indytraveler]

Sounds like I'm in the minority... I actually plan my day around fast pass return times. Only once in the beginning when I missed the return time (because lunch was late) and we tried to get on the ride anyways, we were allowed. I tried to explain why but the CM said it was OK. That was when I found out you could be a few minutes late or so I thought. I guess I spend all day in the park and dont go back to my resort so I just use them as the come up. I know ahead of time which lines I'm waiting in and which one's I won't wait standby at all.
So I guess if you want to save them you can.

[Ian]

I should mention, as well, that we virtually always (probably 95% of the time) use our FP's between the one hour window times.

The entire reason we get a FP in the first place is because we want to ride the ride. Typically we're waiting at the entrance a few minutes before our window even opens, we're so eager to ride!

[Mrs Bus Driver]

Thanks Ian, I found your response interesting and informative. I for one like how Disney does fast pass, I really like how it is there for everyone and you don't pay extra. It is one of the things that will keep me coming back. And I agree with Goforfastpass, if people coming back late were truly a problem Disney would put a stop to it. That they don't speaks volumes. Speaking for myself when I'm on vacation I am there to relax, I try to make the return time but that doesn't always work out nice to know I can still use the ticket. :mickey:

[Mufasa]

So then if I'm reading this correctly, why did they change the load process from FP first, then standby, to some [apparently] random ratio? I do see CMs looking at some information when managing this, so I assume it's not really random.

It isn't a random ratio and is part of the calculations of how much capacity to be allocated to FP.

If we're reserving 80% of OHRC to FP then the load process should try and match that as closely as possible.

Clearing out the FP queue adds to the wait of Standby which in turn would slow down the FP distribution rate- as it attempts to "self-correct"

The difficult balance point is finding how often you update the model so it can accurately reflect a realistic wait time and also hopefully smooth out demand through the day so the attraction can have a steady stream of guests to boost operating efficiency.


The only thing I would add is that the OHRC for attractions I have worked on seems to be set unrealistically high. Even with our best CMs at load and unload we rarely achieve an hourly OHRC.

Yes, it can be difficult to hit OHRC targets and can vary widely just on the nature of the attraction.

An attraction like Space Mountain or Test Track for example might have a very small window where you need to get people organized and in/out of the vehicles as you try to maintain a quick dispatch interval where a boat ride like Pirates has awesome capacity on paper, but often goes under-utilized because you're not filling boats to their capacity and utilizing all the space in each vehicle.

Also for FP to be effective, it should realistically reflect the current operating capacity. If you add or remove vehicles to meet demand, you need to tweak the FP model to reflect this, otherwise you'll be over or under utilized and that negates the advantages of FP.


For this formula to work, the stand by wait time has to be reasonably accurate which is not always the case.

FP is using the standby wait time to influence the distribution rate so it needs to be reasonably accurate and with frequent updates (part of the reason they use those FLIK cards on attractions so the system can provide more automated feedback to the model).

[Mufasa]

I once got on the line for either SplashMtn or Big Thunder Mtn with a posted stand by time of 40 minutes but it was really a 90 minute wait. I'm not sure how common this is since I usually go during off season and pretty much walk onto rides with out fast pass.

I think this could be considered an anomaly since you mention it's off-season and a possible scenario is that the FP model is set-up around more capacity than is actually in place on the attraction.

If we're handing out more FPs than there are available seats it could show the 40 minute wait (let's say FP believes there are 5 trains in operation) but we're only actually running 3 at the moment so we've over-estimated our true capacity.



Disney works very hard to keep the wait times on the signs well ahead of the actual wait times (under-promise, over-deliver), so the far more typical scenario is that you wait 20 minutes in a line with a posted wait time of 40 minutes.

This isn't really a case of where Disney is deliberately posting an inflated wait-time and trying to over-deliver but simply where it is known that so many FPs have been handed out and we're buffering to expect those individuals to return (we're holding their place in the virtual line) but if they're physically not in line then you'll get on the attraction faster.

However, we still can't just suddenly bump the standby wait down to the true wait at the given moment, because we are taking into account the anticipated return of those FP holders and that's where you see the effects of people returning beyond their posted FP window but again the system attempts to self-correct through the day to smooth out those fluctuations.

[Victor Kelly]

Well here is the problem. It has gotten worse in our society. The vast majority of people believe "well the rules don't apply to me" or "can't you do this just this once".

Rules are rules. Especially when you are the 45,845th person in the park, and 10,000 other people want rules bent for them too.

What if 150 of those people are trying to go on a ride at the same time when their fast pass has already expired hours before? What if 500 other people with on time fast passes try to get in the same fast pass line? As an example,The answer is that if the ride is a slow loader and only loads 100 per hour, then the ride now takes 1.5 hours to handle those that are wanting to get on AFTER their window has expired. That means the wait is that much longer for those that came on time.

AS I currently work for the government, and always being asked if I can make an exception just this one time, I am tired of the me me me people. Now my answer is a resounding NO way.

[Goes4FastPass]

...
AS I currently work for the government, and always being asked if I can make an exception just this one time, I am tired of the me me me people. Now my answer is a resounding NO way.

Yep, give people an inch and soon we'll have dogs and cats sleeping together. When people ask me if I plan to live my life worrying about FastPasses at WDW leading to world chaos my answer is a resounding NO way.

[Ian]

Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling.

Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes...

Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave.

Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria!!

[Mrs Bus Driver]

I know I should leave this topic alone but just had a thought :oops: (Dangerous:thedolls:). Something DD and I noticed (at DL no less) if you go to the ride as soon as the FP window starts you will be there with almost everyone:crowd: with FP for that hour, however if you wait 30 minutes or so the lines are shorter. Weird huh? This would seem to lend credence to the theory that contrary to popular belief most people use their FP ASAP:jaw:. So does this mean that FP abuse won't end the world?
Well with this post I think I accomplished 2 things, :beat: once again and used more :mickey: smilies then ever before :laughing::crazy:

[Mufasa]

I know I should leave this topic alone but just had a thought :oops: (Dangerous:thedolls:). Something DD and I noticed (at DL no less) if you go to the ride as soon as the FP window starts you will be there with almost everyone:crowd: with FP for that hour, however if you wait 30 minutes or so the lines are shorter. Weird huh?

FP return windows are rolling- basically, after every X number or so FP's that are distributed (based on the algorithm), it will advance the return window time by a certain number of minutes (typically, it's 5 minutes, but this interval can be varied).

So every 5 minutes that passes it opens up another hour return window for guests- whether you return right as your window opens or wait a half hour should make absolutely no difference.

[Ian]

So every 5 minutes that passes it opens up another hour return window for guests- whether you return right as your window opens or wait a half hour should make absolutely no difference.I suppose theoretically, though, if you come back at a 5 minute interval (i.e. 5 after the hour, 10 after the hour, 15 after, etc.) you might hit a slightly larger group of people who have just arrived for the opening of their one hour window.

If you went at say 18 minutes after the hour, the line might be slightly shorter. Although I'd be surprised if it was enough for you to notice.

[magicofdisney]

Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling.

Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes...

Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave.

Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria!!
Classic scene. Love that movie. :thumbsup:

[MNNHFLTX]

MODERATOR NOTE--

Since this thread has deteriorated to bickering amongst members, it is now closed.