This is just wrong, are they doing this in your school district?

[murphy1]

We are fortunate to live in a very nice school district in GA, but they want to cut the school nurses and al PT teaching staff and I believe a few other staff. I just shake my head over this whole thing! Many parents are trying decide how we can make them see this isn't the right thing to do, it makes me sick after this whole AIG/economic mess.

[VWL Mom]

They apparently cut the hours of our middle school nurses. I guess the kids are only supposed to get sick or hurt during the new hours.:confused:

[ibelieveindisneymagic]

School nurses are unheard of in my section of the world. If (when) the kids get sick, it is the secretary's problem!

Things have been strange up-here for a number of years, my DD, in grade 5, has 32 kids in her class, and no TA's to help!

[brownie]

School nurses are unheard of in my section of the world. If (when) the kids get sick, it is the secretary's problem!

No school nurses in our school either.

[Kenny1113]

This is nothing new for us down here in S. FL. Teachers are paid next to nothing, promised raises and not given to them, having paid days taken away from them. Teachers have to pay for their own copy paper and ink for worksheets and classroom activities and decorations, etc. No more field trips. No more security in the schools, minimal custodial staff. Thankfully we do have a class size mandate, but some schools have gotten around that by combining classes and adding a TA/paraprofessional ( not the same IMHO). Oh and we don't have school nurses either.

As a parent, home schooling is looking better and better.

[jodijo]

As a teacher, I see things getting very bad here in CA. Nurses are unheard of (it is up to us or the secretary to evaluate a child's health), our class size is going from 20 to 31 students per primary class, all of our instructional assistants and aids have been laid off. Our computer tech and campus monitor (helps monitor recess and deals with our numerous behavior problems) have been laid off as well. I am waiting to see if they are going to lay off the janitors and make us clean our own rooms.

The state of education is looking very bad these days. It is estimated that 189,000 teachers in the state of California will be laid off at the end of this school year. It is not a good time to be in the teaching profession.

[vicster]

The nurses in our district (Chicago suburbs) have to have a four year degree. They are cutting nurses, teachers and support staff due to budget cuts. Everyone thinks educators are safe from the recession but that's not true. They should take a look at the administrators salaries. Our district administrator makes over $300,000.00/yr. - the highest paid in Illinois and this is certainly not the largest district in the state so what justifies that kind of salary? Something needs to be done!

[tink2006]

I am in Indiana. Our school system was having to lay off teachers until they saw the stimulus package. Based on this two year stimulus, it seems they will not have to look at teacher lay offs (at least for two years). We have two nurse - one for primary schools and one for middle and High Schools. They have also (starting next year) eliminated all 1/2 days. Kids must go to school the mandated 180 days. The parent/teacher conferences and faculty in service will have to be planned outside of the mandated 180 days of school. I do not think this is so bad but it is another cut because the school system will have to pay the teachers extra - no money no teacher conference....

[LandFan]

I am a high school digital arts teacher (digital video, digital photo, tv studio, computer graphics etc) and frankly, we are the future - we teach it daily. If they don't fund us (where's our bailout???) our future will be very bleak indeed.

They have to fund the arts too - just funding the core subjects does not make a well-rounded problem-solving individual! Industry is starting to find this out. THey are starting to hire artists (read Daniel Pink's books for example) to manage their projects instead of engineers because the artists are the ones who can best think outside-the-box. The engineers don't usually take enough art classes to develop that area of their brains and don't typically do very well coming up with new and creative ideas.

We really need help here if we are to keep pace with the rest of the industrialized world or we'll be the next third-world country as everyone passes us by...

[gauvin4]

In the State of Maine we were made by the Govenor to consolidate school districts to cut costs. Maine is mostly a rural state and has A LOT of districts. By consolidating, the theory is that it will cut administration costs. The school district we live in has merged with 2 other nearby districts and we will now have one superintendent of schools, one central office with staff to the work for all three districts. This merge did not effect the staff at each school. Each school still has a principal and the same office staff. No teachers were effected by this merge either.

It has its pros and cons, but thats what our govenor came up with to cut costs.

[kcrc]

Our school system here in NJ was looking at the cutting of school nurses this year. As the parent of a peanut-allergic child, this kind of put us into a panic attack. We want to know there is someone on site to help my child Heaven forbid he has a reaction.
I would look into the insurance policy that your school system has (if by chance you can get that info). I can't imagine the liability they would face should someone get hurt/have a reaction/etc. and there is no one properly trained to help.
We had issues with our Township rec program last year - in terms of not having anyone on site to help in the event of a life-threatening allergic reaction. They kept telling us "nope, your 6 year old son must be able to give himself benadryl and/or an epi-pen all by himself" (while having a reaction of course). Then, they looked further at their insurance policy and - whoops - they found out they needed to have trained individuals on site or they are very liable.
So... keep pushing... and hopefully things will go the way you want them to! Good luck!

[DizneyRox]

Some 80 people in a local school district were just given pink slips. That's just one school district... Most of them teaching staff, including music/phys ed/etc. Just a few administrative type positions...

[ibrowse17]

They laid off 1200 in our county last year, my DW:( included. The school I work at now has more students and less teachers/aides than before the first cuts. It is a mess.:mad: This year they say they will cut again, and we have already lost our copiers:confused:

[MickeyMousse]

We are fortunate to have a full time nurse at my DS7's elementary school, but they did cut out the art and music teachers due to the budget.

But, it was ok to give teachers a 4% raise because it was "contractual"...can anyone say "AIG"???? :nono:

[Ian]

It's an unfortunate fact of life in this economy. If there's no tax revenue to fund the budgets, cuts have to be made.

Once the economy recovers, I'm quite certain the Obama Administration will see to it that academic spending soars.

[DizneyRox]

We are fortunate to have a full time nurse at my DS7's elementary school, but they did cut out the art and music teachers due to the budget.

But, it was ok to give teachers a 4% raise because it was "contractual"...can anyone say "AIG"???? :nono:
hehe Yeah, that too. 80 educators gone, but the ones that make the cut will get a 4% increase. The teachers union was very happy when they got that 4%.

[RocknBev]

It really is sad that our society puts more value in pro sports than in academics. Currently...we are spending more in our defense budget than in education as well.

As an administrator in GA, our district has decided to locally fund the school nurses next year but we cut our teachers by 6% which means classes will be at full capacity and electives will be limited.

No Child Left Behind has not been kind to education in my opinion. It puts a lot of pressure for schools to concentrate on minimum competency test for subgroups of students who may not be able to achieve at the preset level. In a nutshell, if a child does not have the ability to walk...it doesn't matter how much time and effort and programs I provide for him, I can't make him walk like the regular ed child. Unfortunately, these are the expectations of NCLB in the long run. There are a lot of federal mandates without the funds to back them. The State and the local districts have to come up with the money somehow. As the testing coordinator at my local school, I feel a lot of pressure to make things happen. I want students to be successful but children should be measure based upon their improvement over time not a preset bar determined by suits not familiar with education.

As for the teacher pay raise, I have no problem with those teachers getting a 4% increase. If they were in the buisness world, they may have been earning more anyway without the benefit of merit pay. I know as a graduate with math degree, I would have earned a lot more a long time ago, but I made a choice to dedicate my life to the future of our children.

[Ian]

In fairness, though, you need to compare what we spend per student with what other countries are spending for much better results. Comparing defense spending with spending on education is apples and oranges. A B-2 bomber costs like $3 billion ... defense is expensive.

According to what I've found, the U.S. spends the third most money per student on secondary education in the world (behind only Swizerland and Austria) and yet our students consistently lag far behind less developed nations that spend signficantly less than we do.

The answer is not to just throw more money at the problem, despite what some would have you believe. In fact, studies have actually shown an inverse relationship between increased spending and results in the classroom.

[JPL]

According to what I've found, the U.S. spends the third most money per student on secondary education in the world (behind only Swizerland and Austria) and yet our students consistently lag far behind less developed nations that spend signficantly less than we do.


Well this is not a good representation of progress or us lagging behind. The information comes from standardized test scores which really don't tell the story. Especially since in US we test everyone in other countries they only test their high achieving students who they feel are deemed fit to be educated futher. Most countries use a funnel system and they funnel out lower achieving students and put them on a different educational path. We test little Johnny with ADHD who can't read along with Bobby with Autism who can't add 2 + 2 in the 5th grade not to mention all the students who should have been left back a grade or tested for learning disabilities and their parents said no. And all these scores are averaged in and then compared with other countries' honor students. So will the data show we are lagging behind of course but is it true difficult to say.

[alphamommy]

Our district is looking at a variety of cuts, including eliminating full time media specialists at most of the schools. They are also sending out for quotes on outsourcing transportation, groundskeeping, food service, and janitorial services.

Over the past several years, the voters have approved bond issues and millage increases to purchase new buses, train mechanics, improve the bus garage, etc., and (apparently) as part of the outsourcing proposal, they would be transferring these assets to the "supplier". That doesn't seem wise to me.

The superintendent did take a modest pay cut this year, and I haven't heard any discussions with regard to teacher layoffs, pay cuts, etc.

We specifically picked this area to move to because of their superior school system, and now we aren't sure what will happen. I understand the need for belt tightening, but I hate to see it done at the expense of the safety of the students or the quality of education they receive!

[Ian]

Well this is not a good representation of progress or us lagging behind. The information comes from standardized test scores which really don't tell the story. Especially since in US we test everyone in other countries they only test their high achieving students who they feel are deemed fit to be educated futher.Do you have any hard data to back that up? I've never heard or read that from any source I've ever reviewed on the topic.

Everything I've ever read says we spend more and get less. In fact, the main study I looked at that drew that conclusion analyzed only students in the U.S. So how other countries test their children wouldn't even have entered into it.

[JPL]

There is lots of data to back it up in some of the educational journals. I actually did a research paper on this topic in Grad School. America is the only country that tests every student yet we compare our results to countires who don't test every student and say we are failing.

The problem with the system in America stems from the tests since most teachers are stuck teaching strictly ot these tests and the standards they cover. Add to this the need to try and send every student to college, inclusion classrooms which IMHO help no one. Let's also not forget that we are more worried about a students self esteem than if they are actually learning and you end up with a system that is designed to fail in some ways.

Let's take a look at the inclusion classroom and you have such a wide range of ability levels it makes it almost impossible to gear a lesson to all the different students. So in essence you really don't help the students that need it and you either lose the average student or hold back the gifted students. In other countries classrooms and programs are still structured based on abilities of the students. Some where along the line we lost the idea of sending students through vo-tech programs so they can become a successful part of society and decided they all must go to college and sit behind a desk.

[Ian]

Jeff, I agree with everything you said about some of the main classroom issues. You're spot-on, IMO.

[RocknBev]

In fairness, though, you need to compare what we spend per student with what other countries are spending for much better results. Comparing defense spending with spending on education is apples and oranges. A B-2 bomber costs like $3 billion ... defense is expensive.

According to what I've found, the U.S. spends the third most money per student on secondary education in the world (behind only Swizerland and Austria) and yet our students consistently lag far behind less developed nations that spend signficantly less than we do.



I didn't mean to make a direct comparison. I know military equipment is expensive. Education is expensive as well but it is apparently an easier sacrifice as we are noticing all of the country.

As for the comparison with other countries, we can't really do that either. JPL is right. Other countries only educate the top notch kids in secondary schools and it becomes highly competitive to get in those schools. We educate everyone. A large portion of our educational budget is also spent on special needs students who may or may not even be able to pass a minimum competency test. That is unheard of in other countries....(which is why so many want to come to America)! But it hurts when we are compared to other countries because everyone takes the tests...(even those Severe Mentally Disabled must be tested for progess for NCLB).

[Ian]

Well I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the U.S. educational system, even though I have read extensively on the subject because it's of great interest to me.

But if those things are true (and I have no reason to believe they're not), then it sounds like we need to change process not dump more money down the drain.

One other question for you guys ... If it's just a process issue as you and Jeff say, how come U.S. students do so poorly at the university level when compared against students from other countries? Is it the same thing ... only top students from those countries are going to universities, they're getting top notch, focused education at the secondary level, etc.?

[murphy1]

This is a very interesting discussion, am learning from each of you. One thing I really feel happening more and more is that these other countries push more of the math and science. Not everyone is cut out for that (me in math, I went up to Algebra in school), but give me anything with English and I loved it, as well as creative learning like Humanities. I also wonder genetically if people who are Asian or certain decents are more wired to be good at math and science or if it is their culture that pushes this (I don't mean this to sound like stereotyping). I don't think I could get the higher level math and science even had I been pushed when I was younger (I was hard enough on myself as a student, my parents didn't have to be). My dh is an Engineer (Masters level), but is artistic, I think that was a good point that someone brought up. Look at the Disney Imagineers.

[Ian]

I had this big fancy post written up and then I realized ... I mostly don't know what I'm talking about and should probably keep my opinions to myself. ;)

I think there are areas the public school systems need to improve (Jeff touched on a few of them) and I'll just leave it at that.

[SteveL]

With all of the stuff you read about teachers' contract negotiations, class size, classroom aides, free time, etc, I just can't help but be amazed at the jobs the nuns did with 75 kids in a room, no aides, no school nurses, and no substitute teachers when they got sick.

[vicster]

With all of the stuff you read about teachers' contract negotiations, class size, classroom aides, free time, etc, I just can't help but be amazed at the jobs the nuns did with 75 kids in a room, no aides, no school nurses, and no substitute teachers when they got sick.

Our education system is a lot different these days. "No Child Left Behind" puts a lot more responsibility and time on the teachers, therefore, an aide is needed especially with special needs children. Also more help is needed with ELL children in a classroom. School nurses in our area need a four year degree. It's no longer just dispensing aspirin to sick kids. They have to change feeding tubes, breathing tubes, etc.

[murphy1]

Our education system is a lot different these days. "No Child Left Behind" puts a lot more responsibility and time on the teachers, therefore, an aide is needed especially with special needs children. Also more help is needed with ELL children in a classroom. School nurses in our area need a four year degree. It's no longer just dispensing aspirin to sick kids. They have to change feeding tubes, breathing tubes, etc.

Most of my friends who are teachers are not big fans of NCLB.

[vicster]

Most of my friends who are teachers are not big fans of NCLB.

I don't think you'll find too many teachers who are fans of NCLB.

[Mickey'sGirl]

America is the only country that tests every student yet we compare our results to countires who don't test every student and say we are failing. This is not true. In Ontario, all students are tested, regardless of their academic prowess. My autistic 10 year old sits through the same standardized tests as everyone else.

We have not had a school nurse since I was in grade school -- but our teachers are required to have First Aid training.

[Ian]

I don't think you'll find too many teachers who are fans of NCLB.I keep hearing this, but I really have never seen a teacher articulate exactly what the issues are with it.

I'm not saying NCLB is good ... in fact, it appears to be worthless based on the results produced ... but I have to say, as an outsider looking in, it seems to me like teacher's don't like it simply because it puts some measurement around their performance.

It might not be perfect, but personally I would rather have some form of measurement, no matter how flawed, to show me what I'm getting for my tax dollars. I'll take a flawed measurement system that is at least consistent in its flaws over no measurement at all and a black hole sucking in my money with little result.

[Princess'Mom]

[QUOTE=Ian;1856061black hole sucking in my money with little result.[/QUOTE]

So that's the noise I've been hearing! Ian, I totally agree with you. Well said.

[DizneyRox]

Ian,

I do think you're right. My problem with how the school sytems work is this whole tenure thing. They just aren't used to having to be responsible for their performance. They really need to do away with that. It would enable them to keep costs lower by getting rid of these dinosaurs that can't/won't change and get new blood in the schools.

BUT, another problem is the lack of proper funding for the program. Schools are being forced to spend a lot of money working on kids that will never score well. It's money that could be spent on other things.

[Chandlerella]

The main reason most people don't like NCLB where I am is because it is based on the premise that everyone can succeed. The plain truth is that not everyone can, and not everyone even cares too, but as a teacher I am expected to eventually reach 100%. It just isn't possible. Each year we are measured not simply by whether we meet a certain benchmark, but whether we improve. Improvement is great when you are low, but it is difficult to achieve year after year when you already have high score. For example, say your attendance rate is 94% this year and next year it is 93.9. Your school doesn't meet the benchmark, even though another school went from 52% to 53% and are considered to have made it.

[VWL Mom]

I keep hearing this, but I really have never seen a teacher articulate exactly what the issues are with it.

I'm not saying NCLB is good ... in fact, it appears to be worthless based on the results produced ... but I have to say, as an outsider looking in, it seems to me like teacher's don't like it simply because it puts some measurement around their performance.

It might not be perfect, but personally I would rather have some form of measurement, no matter how flawed, to show me what I'm getting for my tax dollars. I'll take a flawed measurement system that is at least consistent in its flaws over no measurement at all and a black hole sucking in my money with little result.

NCLB may not be the best solution but it basically saved my son. IMO Ian is correct, many teachers do not like it because it means they have someone watching their performance and they are being held accountable.

Before NCLB districts thought nothing of paying to send kids to special schools because they couldn't be bothered with them, it was an easy out for them. Now that NCLB requires test scores from in district and out of district to be included thereby making the home district responsible for the children regardless of their placement. It is making some districts rethink their processes.

It is guaranteeing an education for all. It allowed my son to return to district where he has flourished. He has been fortunate to have some amazing teachers and is now a straight A student. His ASK test scores have gone from below average to above average. He was invited to take the SAT Math test (and he is in 7th grade) because of his scores. There is a shared aide in his Language Arts class but the cost is far less than the $45000 per child per year the district was paying for out of district schools.

[Mickey'sGirl]

Why don't people ever complain when gifted children are in the classroom? Shouldn't they be shipped off and hidden away in a secret school too? Oh no....that's right....they don't tarnish a teacher's/school's image do they?

And for the record, everyone CAN succeed. It's called accomodation, and it is not a privilege.

The amount of intolerance displayed here is astounding.

[Princess'Mom]

Why don't people ever complain when gifted children are in the classroom? Shouldn't they be shipped off and hidden away in a secret school too? Oh no....that's right....they don't tarnish a teacher's/school's image do they?

And for the record, everyone CAN succeed. It's called accomodation, and it is not a privilege.

The amount of intolerance displayed here is astounding.

I agree with you - everyone can succeed. What I don't agree with are programs that are slogans and not a lot of substance. Children learn at many different levels and have a right to that education. Our state has the SOL program - Standards of Learning - it, in a nutshell, teaches children the material needed to pass the exams. I don't call that learning either. Teaching children to pass a test and provide a measurement by school isn't going to cut it in my book.

What about the creative side to learning? How about Art or Music? All of those programs are being eliminated too. Such a shame.

[Ian]

Well ... hold the phone, though. I mean I agree that every child who wants to learn should be given an opportunity to learn. No doubt about that.

Even if they'll never acheive to the level that others will, they should at least be given a fair chance to reach their full potential just like any other kid. My brother-in-law is mentally challenged and because he received an education he is able to at least hold down a modest job at a workshop. It makes him productive.

BUT ... and this is a big but ... if you either know full well that the child has no prayer of reaching minimal competency levels (which we all would have to admit is the case with many special needs children) or you know full well that the child has no interest in performing, then I sort of agree that teacher's shouldn't be held responsible for that.

I mean on some level parents and kids also have to be accountable for school performance. Me personally ... I think parents should be legally accountable for their child's school performance. Maybe that would make some of these disinterested parents sit up, take notice, and actually raise their kids instead of just ignoring them.

To me, bad parenting is just as culpable in our failing school system as anything else.

[Ian]

What about the creative side to learning? How about Art or Music? All of those programs are being eliminated too. Such a shame.Tough call ... I'm not 100% sure that these programs should really be taught at taxpayer expense.

Maybe we should eliminate those type of programs from schools entirely, focus only on the fundamentals of education, and leave responsibility for music and art classes to the parents.

I mean if I want my kid to play piano, should I really expect other taxpayers to foot the bill? Maybe I should just send them to piano lessons? Like it or not, the truth is that very few kids get anything out of those classes.

I was in the school band for four years ... trust me ... I know.

[Mickey'sGirl]

To me, bad parenting is just as culpable in our failing school system as anything else....never thought I'd say this.....but, I completely agree. :blush:

....and if the teacher is not accountable for the poorly performing child, regardless of the reason, then neither should the teacher take credit for the gifted child. Gotta love mediocrity. :thumbsup:

[Ian]

Gotta love mediocrity. :thumbsup:Elasta-Girl: Everybody's special, Dash.

Dash: Which is just another way of saying no one is ....

[RocknBev]

And for the record, everyone CAN succeed. It's called accomodation, and it is not a privilege.



Although I don't diagree that all students can succeed, I don't believe all students can succeed at the same level at the same time. Unfortunately those are the expectation of NCLB at least in the State of Georgia. Most of the teachers I work with (and we don't have a teacher's union) have no problem with being measured..because actually NCLB measure the school not the individual teacher. The problem is the expectations of NCLB are unreasonable....the idea that 100% of the students will pass the high school graduation test within the next several years regardless of their disability is just plain.....stupid. Students should be measured on their improvement and progress not on a predetermined score on a test they take on week during their high school career.

[murphy1]

ITA agree with you Jen. And I also believe it really does take a (yes I'm going to say it) Villiage. I considered becoming an education major, but decided against it b/c I didn't want to deal with the awful parents (one bad parent to me would have been enough to where I ran away, I was a nanny and had great parents to work for). Teachers don't like NCLB b/c it's just one more thing put on them and they are grossly underpaid as it is. Luckily we have someone in command that I truly believe is heading us in a better direction. Things are never perfect, but they have to get better.

[Kenny1113]

To me, bad parenting is just as culpable in our failing school system as anything else.

I too, agree. If the importance of education is not enforced at home, where is the child supposed to get it?

[Chandlerella]

I guess I should have been more specific when I said not every child can succeed. What I meant, as some of you have pointed out, is that not every child can get a high school diploma, based on the current criteria. In my state, that includes a graduation exam. Some of them, no matter how hard they try, will not pass it. Yet, our school is judged on that. That is what I hear other teachers complain about the most with NCLB. Also, just wanted to point out that testing and accountability didn't start with NCLB, just the 100% part.

[Ian]

Students should be measured on their improvement and progress not on a predetermined score on a test they take on week during their high school career.ITA. Very well said!


Teachers don't like NCLB b/c it's just one more thing put on them and they are grossly underpaid as it is.Uh ... not all teachers are grossly underpaid. I know high school teachers with a decent tenure in our school district are pulling down $80-$90k a year.

Personally, I think that's incredibly good money for people who work 9 months out of the year.

Honestly, I don't really buy the "teachers are underpaid" argument. Teachers are paid what the market will bear and most of them have benefits that are far in excess of industry standards.

The truth is, when you go in to a job where the taxpayers are footing the bill, you have to expect to be paid a modest salary. No one twists anyone's arm and makes them become a teacher. Heck, State Senators probably make less money than a lot of teachers do.

[murphy1]

Wow! That is great money, Ian! Ours start out only about a little less than 40, High school teachers make around 50 starting out.

[DizneyRox]

....and if the teacher is not accountable for the poorly performing child, regardless of the reason, then neither should the teacher take credit for the gifted child.
I think we're talking about different things. IMO, we're confusing capability with capacity. Some people are just never going to learn to the same extent as others. I think of that more as a measurement of IQ. How you learn what you can is different, and it's entirely possible for a high IQ person (which would make them gifted) to have difficulty learning certian ways. It may take a different approach. With others, generally lower IQ, you reach a point where no matter what methods used, it's just not going to sink in. Those are the ones that we're probably wasting money on.

The teacher really has nothing to do with either. I've seen/experienced teachers who loath the gifted programs and do everything they can to keep/get kids out.

Doesn't matter much anymore, gifted/talented is usually the first to go anyway.


Personally, I think that's incredibly good money for people who work 9 months out of the year.

Show me a teacher that only works 9 months a year, and I'd agree.

[Georgesgirl1]

As a teacher, I would much rather get rid of the school nurses than have my class size jump from 20-30 kids. Imagine trying to teach 30 five year olds!? I work at a private school, and we don't have a school nurse. We have to take first aid classes. If a kid in my class has an allergic reaction I know how to give an epi-pen shot, and I take temperatures of kids when they aren't feeling well. It can be done, and it was done that way when I was in school.

Ian- I didn't look at where you are from, but teachers in GA don't make that much...maybe if you are a principal with a doctorate and have been in the system for 30 years you may make that much, but the average is about $50,000 I think. Of course Georgia doesn't have a teacher's union.

As a teacher, my problems with NCLB come from judging a whole year on one test. I think teachers should be held accountable, but I think there has to be a better way.

Also, it isn't fair to expect some schools to continue to improve every year. The elementary school we are districted to had a 98% "pass" rate last year which means that even most of the special needs kids acheieved the goals. Yet next year they have to have more kids "pass" or they will be put on the risk list. However, another school in the district may only have 40% of the kids "pass" and if they have 41% next year they will be labeled as meeting adequate yearly progress. That to me is flawed.

I once read a story which I think sums up a teacher's struggles. Here is a summary....

A business man is talking to a group of teachers about how to be successful. He is the owner of an ice cream company that makes the best strawberry ice cream. After he gets done speaking, a teacher in the audience stood up and asked, "What would you do if you got a shipment of strawberries that were bruised and in bad shape?" The business man said, "I would send them back of course! I would never use bruised fruit in my award winning ice cream!" The teacher replied, "That's the difference between the business world and teaching. We can't "send back" bruised students. It is our job to teach all kids that come into our classroom, from the student who doesn't speak any English when he walks into our classroom to the child who is being physically abused at home to the student with severe learning disabilities. We have to use any fruit that is sent to us, and still make good ice cream."

Just something to think about.

[DisneyAggies]

Personally, I think that's incredibly good money for people who work 9 months out of the year.


I WISH!! I taught for 5 years and NEVER worked for just 9 months of the year!!!

And, the $80-90K figures are WAAY off from the national average.

[Chandlerella]

I want to know where it is that all these teachers are only working for 9 months! I keep hearing that from people who aren't teachers, and I would like to know so I could go there too! Lol! Actually, I would like to teach where you only work 9 months and get to go to the bathroom too.

[Kenny1113]

Uh ... not all teachers are grossly underpaid. I know high school teachers with a decent tenure in our school district are pulling down $80-$90k a year.

Personally, I think that's incredibly good money for people who work 9 months out of the year.

Honestly, I don't really buy the "teachers are underpaid" argument. Teachers are paid what the market will bear and most of them have benefits that are far in excess of industry standards.

.

Here, there are 3rd year teachers making less than $40,000/yr. We live in a city with a pretty high cost of living. I can't speak for retirement benifits, but I know their health benifits are not anything worth taking a lower paying job for. I believe our teachers should make more, you want quality work, you need to give quality pay. These are the teachers of our future. I'm sure that right now the people who have chosen teaching as a career have done so, not for the money(obviously) but because they truely want to be teachers. But when they are being streched so thin, with the decline of ancillary staff and don't have the supplies they need ( due to budget cuts) and then are having trouble making ends meet. I'm sure that can cause burn out.

[DizneyRox]

I'm sure that right now the people who have chosen teaching as a career have done so, not for the money(obviously) but because they truely want to be teachers.
Actually, I have seen the opposite for the most part. I know a few people whose chose teaching as their career from the get go, but I know at least twice as many that wanted to switch after their first choice failed. I really think they thought "Oh, it'll be easy, and I'll only have to work 9 months a year!". I laughed to myself when they then returned, complaining about the process they needed to go through to become a teacher. The schooling, certification process, the additional schooling (masters degree), etc, the long hours, the low pay, the lack of respect from parents/students, buying much of their own supplies, etc.

[murphy1]

I am pretty peeved about the cuts in art and music, I played flute from third grade up to college. One of my friends is in NJ and fighting for recess, whcih should automatically be there! We are so fortunate that our County has many, many involved parents, I volunteer at the school and library, I love it, but I know it's for the kids and I love our teachers.

[disneygirlnowmom]

First off let me say that I hate NCLB. And no, I'm not a teacher.

Here's a couple of things that you might not know about NCLB. First, this is NOT measuring teachers it is measuring the schools progress. It's not even measuring a child progress. What NCLB does is measure (for example) last year's third graders scores with this year's third graders scores and then next year's third grader scores with this years third graders scores. That's like comparing a pro football team from one year to the next when it loses all it's players and starts over. Is that fair?

Second, they break the scores out into subgroups and if your district doesn't meet their standards in even one subgroup then the district will be on a watch list or lose funding. So if you have a child that is hispanic, low-income, and in special ed, that child's score will COUNT in all three of those subgroups. In other words that score gets counted three times. But the white, middle-income, average student's score only gets counted ONCE because white, middle-income and average are NOT sub-categories.

I could go on there are a lot more examples like this. I hope that you can see why teachers and well informed people don't like NCLB.

[IloveJack]

I'm also a teacher. I teach HS Spanish and Yearbook at a small private school in middle TN. And it's okay... many of my students even think things are as posted above. They think that because they pay tuition, I should be rich. Well, I make a whopping $19,000/yr. salary, and this is my 4th year of teaching! Technically my family qualifies for gov't help (that we don't take)... what does that say about teachers?
BTW, there's no such thing as a retirement fund where I work. My health ins. is paid for me, but if I choose to add my family to the policy, it's $300+/pay period. Subtract that from 19,000 and see what you get.
Oh, I've never worked for only 9 months. Yes, we do get holidays and the summer off, but for those of you that don't, what do you take with you when you leave work? Your umbrella and purse/briefcase? I took home a 5-in. stack of papers to grade last night. Not to mention that 4 weeks of my summer vacation is going to be spent at the school teaching summer school, with another 2 spent getting things ready for next year's yearbook staff.
And don't get me started on class size, I'll be teaching Spanish 2 to a class of 33 next year! But I don't dare complain; I've also been asked to teach one Science class, to keep from hiring another teacher.
Cut-backs are being discussed, but I'm fairly safe, as we must offer foreign language. And I don't know many tri-lingual people who'll work for my pay...
However, my students are correct, I am rich. I get to see the light in their eyes when a concept finally gets through. I am the winner of their love when I give up a Friday night to watch them ride barrels at the local arena, or a Saturday afternoon to see them perform in a 4-H fashion show. I get to spend hours a day with kids that I know more about than most of their parents. I get to be the answer when somewhere down the line someone asks who made a difference in their lives.
No. I don't do it for the money or the days off; I do it for the "benefits."

[Jeri]

I am very surpised that some schools don't have nurses. My 2 boys go to a district that has 15 schools ( Kindergarten to Highschool) and each school has a full time RN.
The district also has a main district wide Autism/ Aspergers specialist, along with one for each grade catagory. Preschool-Kindergarten,Elementary,Middle school, and Highschool. They also have many teachers, and special ed staff trained in dealing with with many special needs.
This is one of the main reasons we picked this district for our kids.
They have fairly small class sizes, and all teachers are required to already have or be getting their masters degree.

I know there are only 22 kids in my sons kindergarten class now and it looks like his first grade class will be between 11 to 15 kids.

[Ian]

Wow! That is great money, Ian! Ours start out only about a little less than 40, High school teachers make around 50 starting out.Sure, but actually I think that's really good money for "just starting out."

I mean the national average for median income is like $40k a year, so they're basically starting out at average and going up from there.

Also, bear in mind that cost-of-living is very different in different parts of the country so that $40k they're making could very well be even better that it sounds compared with the $80k - $90 in the Northeast where cost-of-living is really expensive.


Show me a teacher that only works 9 months a year, and I'd agree.Well by the same token, show me anyone in the business world who works a 40 hour work week. Everyone has to go above and beyond on their jobs. That's just a part of the deal.

But bottom line is teachers are required to be doing classroom teaching 9 months out of the year. That's undeniable, unless you're in a district that has year-round education.


Ian- I didn't look at where you are from, but teachers in GA don't make that much...maybe if you are a principal with a doctorate and have been in the system for 30 years you may make that much, but the average is about $50,000 I think. Of course Georgia doesn't have a teacher's union.Okay, but I mean ... $50 grand a year in Georgia, where the cost of living is lower, is pretty darn good.

I mean what do you guys think teacher's should make? Personally, I think $50,000 to $70,000 is more than a fair wage.


I'm also a teacher. I teach HS Spanish and Yearbook at a small private school in middle TN. And it's okay... many of my students even think things are as posted above. They think that because they pay tuition, I should be rich. Well, I make a whopping $19,000/yr. salary, and this is my 4th year of teaching!You can't compare private school to public school, though. It's apples and oranges.


Oh, I've never worked for only 9 months. Yes, we do get holidays and the summer off, but for those of you that don't, what do you take with you when you leave work? Your umbrella and purse/briefcase? I took home a 5-in. stack of papers to grade last night.Ummm ... with all due respect, this made me laugh out loud.

Last night I took my laptop and PDA home with me and worked my tail off until 9:30 at night, which is pretty much what I do three or four nights a week for 12 months of the year. And I frequently work 8-10 hours on the weekends, as well.

[vicster]

Uh ... not all teachers are grossly underpaid. I know high school teachers with a decent tenure in our school district are pulling down $80-$90k a year.

Our tenured high school teachers with a masters degree are making over $100k/yr.

[meldan98]

My mother has worked in education for almost 30 years, not as a teacher, but as a teaching assistant. For the last 15 or so years, she has worked in Special Education.

She has several issues with the NCLB. My mom's school has a very high free lunch % population (about 98%). She has about 120 kids (out of about 300) currently receiving services from Special Education and there are at least 12 different languages spoken by students in her school. Every year their students are expected to take a test and those results must improve every year, or else they could lose their funding and be taken over by the state. They have to offer free gas cards to the parents in order for them to come to open house, back to school night and parent teacher conferences. The parents feel that it is the schools job to educate their children (which, don't get me wrong, it is) and it should be done with zero involvement of the parents. The school has stopped sending homework home, because in NEVER gets done. All projects like missions, book reports, journals, and take home reading must be accomplished in class or they will never get done at home. So, in the short amount of time that they have each day, they have to feed the children, keep them warm and clean (since most of the parents don't do a great job of that either), teach them morals and right from wrong (that doesn't happen at home either), teach them to pass a test and hope by chance that they learn enough to keep the school progressing, and on top of that help them with projects and homework. If the students don't do well on the tests all the blame rests on the school. The parents get upset that school isn't teaching their kids and no one in the community is happy. Yet, the parents take ZERO responsiblity for the children's education. Yet, with all of the obstacles that the kids in my mom's school face, they are expected to improve each year.

My mom is getting so frustrated with public education at this point. My mom's position at the school is currently in limbo, even with having more years than anyone in the entire district.

[vicster]

I totally agree with Meldan98. There's only so much a school can do to educate children and especially with no parental involvement. Face it, some kids just don't want to learn and it seems some parents could care less.

[DisneyAggies]

Sure, but actually I think that's really good money for "just starting out."

I mean the national average for median income is like $40k a year, so they're basically starting out at average and going up from there.

Also, bear in mind that cost-of-living is very different in different parts of the country so that $40k they're making could very well be even better that it sounds compared with the $80k - $90 in the Northeast where cost-of-living is really expensive.

Well by the same token, show me anyone in the business world who works a 40 hour work week. Everyone has to go above and beyond on their jobs. That's just a part of the deal.

But bottom line is teachers are required to be doing classroom teaching 9 months out of the year. That's undeniable, unless you're in a district that has year-round education.

Okay, but I mean ... $50 grand a year in Georgia, where the cost of living is lower, is pretty darn good.

I mean what do you guys think teacher's should make? Personally, I think $50,000 to $70,000 is more than a fair wage.

You can't compare private school to public school, though. It's apples and oranges.

Ummm ... with all due respect, this made me laugh out loud.

Last night I took my laptop and PDA home with me and worked my tail off until 9:30 at night, which is pretty much what I do three or four nights a week for 12 months of the year. And I frequently work 8-10 hours on the weekends, as well.

Wow. All I can say is try it...then you'll know 9 month thing is a bunch of malarkey. One year, DH and I logged our hours working. Not scientific, but the results were astounding. But the time I had worked my '9 months' I had logged as much time as he did for the year. DH has a typical 40 hour work week + oncall + and additional oncall rotation 2 weeks of the year. Oh...and the working 'till 9:30 at night...I did that too--pretty much every night the custodial staff would see me out. Easily worked Saturday and Sunday most weeks too. It's very easy to sit back and believe that the work only happens when the kids are there...but it's simply NOT true, and I find it insulting...


Only working 9 months out of the year? I guessing THAT'S the number ONE reason the turnover rates are so high.

[vicster]

Wow. All I can say is try it...then you'll know 9 month thing is a bunch of malarkey. One year, DH and I logged our hours working. Not scientific, but the results were astounding. But the time I had worked my '9 months' I had logged as much time as he did for the year. Only working 9 months out of the year? I guessing THAT'S the number ONE reason the turnover rates are so high.

Absolutely the 9 month working is malarkey. I know for a fact my daughter, who's a teacher, puts in 12+ hours a day. Doesn't anyone wonder when they do lesson plans, grading, etc. plus teach classes all day? Teachers deserve every penny they make. After all, none of us would be where we are today without our teachers.

[Ian]

Okay okay ... I surrender on the 9 month thing! My only point was, I don't believe a teacher's work week/year is any more or less demanding than the average professional position. :)


Teachers deserve every penny they make. After all, none of us would be where we are today without our teachers.This I definitely agree with. I never meant to imply teachers were overpaid, that's for sure.

I just meant that, in general, there seems to be a public perception that they're dramatically underpaid and I'm not sure that's true either.

I think their wages are, by and large, fair for the amount of work they put in. And the free market pretty much bears that out. In fact, in private schools teachers tend to make far less money (unless it's a seriously hoity-toity place), so you could maybe make the argument that public school teachers with unions do better than what the market would typically offer them.

And listen ... I love teachers. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm trying to demean what they do. No way. As a parent, I care a great deal about my kids' teachers and the education system. But I'm just not sure it works well the way it is today. Can't say I know why ... I just know that I don't think the results are really there.

[DisneyAggies]

Okay okay ... I surrender on the 9 month thing! My only point was, I don't believe a teacher's work week/year is any more or less demanding than the average professional position. :)

This I definitely agree with. I never meant to imply teachers were overpaid, that's for sure.

I just meant that, in general, there seems to be a public perception that they're dramatically underpaid and I'm not sure that's true either.

I think their wages are, by and large, fair for the amount of work they put in. And the free market pretty much bears that out. In fact, in private schools teachers tend to make far less money (unless it's a seriously hoity-toity place), so you could maybe make the argument that public school teachers with unions do better than what the market would typically offer them.

And listen ... I love teachers. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm trying to demean what they do. No way. As a parent, I care a great deal about my kids' teachers and the education system. But I'm just not sure it works well the way it is today. Can't say I know why ... I just know that I don't think the results are really there.

I'm just sayin'...don't go starting the 9 month arguement with a teacher (OR her DH)...not wise...;) I'm still gonna say...you will never know if it's more/less demanding until you walk in their shoes...then you'll know!

Reminds me of a Dad that I had that really didn't respect teachers...this was my first year teaching...and needless to say, he respected ME even less...he volunteered to help out (watch the class) while I did testing out in the hall...2 hours he made it...2 hours...the rest of the year he was eating out of my hand! LOL

And yes, I agree there are problems...ones that need to be solved BY educators...NOT politicians.

ETA: It's also worth mentioning that despite what the average teacher salary is, a good portion of the teacher's earnings go BACK into the classroom--I spent a good 1/3 to 1/2 of my salary buying things needed for my students, but NOT provided by the district (and this is in addition to grant writing).

[Ian]

And yes, I agree there are problems...ones that need to be solved BY educators...NOT politicians.Well I pretty much believe that politicians only cause problems ... they rarely solve them. And when they do, it's typically a disaster.

So, at least on that point, you and I are in agreement that the government should stay the heck out of it.

[DisneyAggies]

LOL

Well at least we've got that to agree upon...
AND Disney! :mickey:

LOL

[Georgesgirl1]

Okay, but I mean ... $50 grand a year in Georgia, where the cost of living is lower, is pretty darn good.

I mean what do you guys think teacher's should make? Personally, I think $50,000 to $70,000 is more than a fair wage.


$50,000 is about the average for the county I teach in. So this is what people who have been teaching for 10-15 years and have a masters are getting. My best friend with a master's made this working in the business world within a few years of graduating. (And she does leave work at 6pm most nights and rarely takes work home with her!)

One of my good friends has been teaching for 10 years, has a master's degree, and still has to tutor about 10 hours a week to make ends meet!

Yes, the cost of living in Georgia is lower than the northeast, but teacher pay is still is below average compared to the business world.

[jodijo]

I am a teacher!

I have taught for 13 years and make $45,000 a year.

I have no aides for my 12 bilingual students.

I have no aides for my 5 students with special needs.

I am not a fan of NCLB because I have to teach to the test. Everyday we spend a significant amount of time learning test taking strategies and practicing for the standardized test.

IMO - NCLB has taken the fun out of teaching. We cannot teach anything that is not a standard based. The fun activities and field trips we use to take are no longer an option. We have to spend that time preparing for the test.

The state of CA and NCLB does not look at the growth students make but only if they are working at grade level. My students are low. Most have scored far below basic on previous tests. This year, my goal is to move them up to basic (that is a 1 to 2 year growth). Although this would be a big accomplishment, NCLB still sees these students, as well as myself, as failures because they are not a grade level. I find that disgusting.

[vicster]

The state of CA and NCLB does not look at the growth students make but only if they are working at grade level. My students are low. Most have scored far below basic on previous tests. This year, my goal is to move them up to basic (that is a 1 to 2 year growth). Although this would be a big accomplishment, NCLB still sees these students, as well as myself, as failures because they are not a grade level. I find that disgusting.

Our area gives ELL kids the same test as everyone (in English) which sets them up for failure. It's definitely not fair to blame the kids or the teachers.