DVC Reallocates Points for 2010

[Maleficent's Dad]

I got this from another website (I won't post the link, but want to give credit). I confirmed the info at DVCMember.com.

Any feelings folks???
I'm not sure... yet... :confused:
I used to like the weekday reduced rates.
---------------------------

Written by Tim Krasniewski
Wednesday, January 21, 2009 06:50PM
For just the second time in its 18 year history, Disney Vacation Club has taken steps to reallocate the points charts for existing DVC resorts. The result--more expensive trips for those who favor Sunday - Thursday stays.

According to a notice posted to [snip], the weekend point values have been decreased with corresponding increases in the Sunday to Thursday nightly point values. DVC's statement suggests that the weekly values have remained largely intact, but members who are accustomed to economical weekday stays may find their vacations costing more points beginning in 2010.

A review of the new points charts revealed the following:

Beach Club Villas / One Bedroom / Choice Season
2009: 24 points per weekday, 47 poins per weekend
2010: 27 points per weekday, 38 points per weekend

A Sunday to Thursday stay in the above accommodation will cost 15 more points in 2010 than it did in 2009--an increase of 12.5%.

Legally it is within Disney Vacation Club's rights to make these changes. As long as the annual point totals for a single resort unit (room or group of rooms) does not change, the weekly values and seasons are subject to change.

DVC previously reallocated the points charts in the mid-90s. The prior adjustment had the opposite effect with weekday stays declining in cost and weekends increasing.

The 2010 points charts can now be found on DVCMember.com and will be posted to DVCNews.com shortly.

Official statement follows.


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Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts
To help address a growing Member interest in weekend stays at Disney Vacation Club Resorts, Disney Vacation Club has adjusted 2010 Vacation Points charts, reducing Vacation Point requirements for Friday and Saturday nights.

In addition to better reflecting the changes in Members' vacationing patterns, the adjusted charts make accommodations more affordable during many popular Walt Disney World® events, such as Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party and ESPN The Weekend.

To make this change possible, Vacation Point requirements for some instances of Sunday-Thursday stays are now higher. However, a full week's stay will essentially cost the same amount of Vacation Points as before.

To view the adjusted Vacation Points charts, click on the "View Vacation Points Charts" link in the "Plan My Vacation" section of this Web site (located on the right side of the page).

[wendy*darling]

Interesting...
and I think I like it.

It may eliminate the need for us to move for Fri & Sat stays.
While I do enjoy hitting a Value or Mod once in awhile, I am sure that many people "bail out" on Fridays and Saturdays like we do, leaving a much lower occupancy.

I might be more inclined to stay put (which is what they want- I'm sure ;)).

[DizneyRox]

First thought, I'm not too upset about it. I've always liked quick weekend getways, and this might help those. As long as the weekly point costs don't change, I really don't care, it's a wash for my big trips. If anything it will lower my costs, since I can sta y for two weekends instead of having to bail to a new resort, or use up precious points.

[lockedoutlogic]

it's a good move....

the sun-thurs thing is a loophole that has been slammed shut by overcrowding at certain locations.....redistribution of points is a logical way to stem some of that overcrowding...

[Ian]

I like it. We typically have avoided weekend stays because of the astronomical point costs. Now we won't have to move resorts for Friday/Saturday night stays.

Interesting, though ... someone check my math here using the BCV example provided ...

Previously, a 7 night stay from Saturday to Saturday would have cost 120 points for the five weeknights (24 x 5) and 94 points for the two weekend nights (47 x 2). That's a total of 214 points.

In 2010, it would be 135 points for the five weeknights (27 x 5) and 76 points for the two weekend nights (38 x 2). A total of 211 points. 3 points less than previous.

How does that work? Does that mean it became more expensive in other seasons to stay? Or for other room categories?

I'm not as familiar with the rules for reallocating points as I should be.

[Sunshine1010]

I usually go from a Tuesday to the next week's Friday....so basically, only 1 weekend. I'm assuming this will now be more points for me.

[sillyolbear]

We have tended to be Sunday-Thursday people and I'll be glad to have the change.

[VWL Mom]

Interesting, though ... someone check my math here using the BCV example provided ...

Previously, a 7 night stay from Saturday to Saturday would have cost 120 points for the five weeknights (24 x 5) and 94 points for the two weekend nights (47 x 2). That's a total of 214 points.

In 2010, it would be 135 points for the five weeknights (27 x 5) and 76 points for the two weekend nights (38 x 2). A total of 211 points. 3 points less than previous.



Same for VWL. The charts are gone from DVCMember but I did find them on another site. 2Bdrm Choice is now 282, listed as 279 for 2010.

[DisneyWhirled]

I think it is a good move.

We often come in on a Friday or Saturday and we stay through the next weekend. We use our points for our entire stay. It is our preference not to have to move during a vacation.

Now, I won't feel so guilty about not moving and using DVC points for the weekends!

While I am not a re-allociation expert, I would think that as long as the points for the week do not go up, they are within the rights to modify the nightly points.

[Seasonscraps]

What happens to mid-week vacations that are already reserved? Will they adjust the points you need based on the new tables or will you only be charged the points you used at the time you made the reservation? I'm going to have to give them a call.

[VWL Mom]

I don't think the first 2010 res can be made until Feb 1 (11 months out). I could be wrong.

[Ian]

I usually go from a Tuesday to the next week's Friday....so basically, only 1 weekend. I'm assuming this will now be more points for me.If you look at my example above, that may not be the case.

[wendy*darling]

What happens to mid-week vacations that are already reserved? Will they adjust the points you need based on the new tables or will you only be charged the points you used at the time you made the reservation? I'm going to have to give them a call.
We are not 11 months out from Jan 1 yet- so no one will be affected.

[Seasonscraps]

I'm a dope - I didn't pay attention to the effective dates. :blush: Thanks.

[dlpmikki]

Interesting - on the DVC site now is this message:

On January 21 a version of the 2010 Vacation Point Charts was incorrectly posted. An updated version will be made available within the next week. Members with valid email addresses on record will receive an email when the new charts are available. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.


I wonder if they got their sums wrong for the total of number of points per year?

[Raye3201]

I wondered that too...if the sums were incorrect in the first posting of the points as some weeks went down while others went up. I thought the points for weeks had to stay the same?!:mickey:

[Maleficent's Dad]

I thought the points for weeks had to stay the same?!:mickey:
Not necessarily...
It's complicated - but Disney can make weeks more expensive (point-wise) as long as during another part of the year, point use goes down. They can change seasons, reallocate points, and shift things around to their liking... But the overall point useage for the year has to come out even.

[Raye3201]

Ahhh...I get it now! Thanks for explaining!

[Aurora]

Not necessarily...
It's complicated - but Disney can make weeks more expensive (point-wise) as long as during another part of the year, point use goes down. They can change seasons, reallocate points, and shift things around to their liking... But the overall point useage for the year has to come out even.

Yes, it's a weird thing that they have to have the same number of points per year, because theoretically that means they can charge 1000 points for a studio during Christmas week as long as they lower points during some other part of the year.

Not that they ever will, but it's something to know.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Not necessarily...
It's complicated - but Disney can make weeks more expensive (point-wise) as long as during another part of the year, point use goes down. They can change seasons, reallocate points, and shift things around to their liking... But the overall point useage for the year has to come out even.

Ahh, that's how it works... Thanks... I was thinking how could they raise points per night when they state they won't ever raise them, that they stay the same... It is actually thr TOTAL amount of points per week/year.. Gotcha.. Makes sense to me now..

[DVC Mike]

I happen to think they just need to reallocate the points to balance usage based upon demand. It's obvious that many members have purchased points only for Sun-Thu stays, and the demand for Sun-Thu stays greatly exceeds the demand for Fri-Sat stays. So, it is reasonable for DVC to reallocate points based upon demand/usage by members.

Of course, if I were someone who did an add-on specifically for booking a particular resort at the 11-mo window for a weekday stay, I wouldn't be very happy.

I did happen to re-check my four planned 2010 trips, and each and every one of them will now require less points than under the old points chart, so I'm a happy camper!

[Donald A]

I appear to be in the minority here, but I am actually upset by it. When I bought into the club in November of 2006 I was expecting to be able to go 5 nights Sunday through Thursday in the season with the lowest points. This got me the most I could for the points (more "bang for my buck so to speak"). The adjustments now have made it more points to do what I have done and plan to do in the future. It still doesn't lower the weekend points enough for me to use points to stay on the weekend. I have reviewed my contract and see how it is not a breach of contract what they have done, but it was not how it was presented to me when my wife and I joined. I have let the club know of my displeasure related to this.

[DizneyRox]

You know, I was just thinking about that... A lot of people it seems get EXACTLY what they need an not plan around thing like this...

I've always said that poeple need to look at the point and PLAN on not getting the accomodations they want or even the weeks they need. THis would be a good example of why. If you bought and got EXACTLY enough to stay on a particular week for only a limited number of days, yes, you are... well.. Up a creek.

I'm thinking the responses will be acompanied by a suggestion to call your guide and purchase more points.

Let us know what they say...

[Donald A]

I didn't join with a plan to buy points based on what I thought I needed point-wise but instead bought what I could afford (the minimum 150 points at the time). I was careful to ask my guide about how the points could change and specifically asked, "So you are telling me that 11 points for a Sunday through Thursday studio at Saratoga Springs for the value time will never change?" I was told "no" and that was the beauty of the club. This is a mis-representation (to put it in nice terms) from my guide.

I wouldn't be surprised if I were to be told that I should buy more points. After-all, I am beginning to wonder if this change was a move to try to get more money after watching how people vacation. I was told it was based on member feedback, but I have little doubt it was based on DVC accountants trying to figure out how to get more money.

[DizneyRox]

I was careful to ask my guide about how the points could change and specifically asked, "So you are telling me that 11 points for a Sunday through Thursday studio at Saratoga Springs for the value time will never change?" I was told "no" and that was the beauty of the club.
You are correct, if that is what you were told, yes you were lied (and that's putting it nicely as well) to.

When we joined, we were told that points could change. It was explained that the cost in points for a year for a given room could not change. Weekly and/or daily, the points COULD change up or down, but the total for the year could not. This was to allow for seasonal type stuff (like holidays that don't happen at the same time each year), and/or shifts in attendence, like if all of the sudden the week of May 5th becomes a huge week. But, when something goes up, something else must come down.

That appears to be what happened here ("seasonal" shifts in vacation time), but I don't buy their response. I think people are gaming the system. They figured out that Sun-Thu are cheaper, so that's when they vacation (it's called VALUE). Not that it was a big secret, and not that I blame people for doing it. I do it as well, I usually pack a long vacation around one weekend. I think Disney is seeing more and more weekend days open and to avoid that, they are playing within the rules to close those gaps. It wasn't done for our convenience though...

[Donald A]

That appears to be what happened here ("seasonal" shifts in vacation time), but I don't buy their response. I think people are gaming the system. They figured out that Sun-Thu are cheaper, so that's when they vacation (it's called VALUE). Not that it was a big secret, and not that I blame people for doing it. I do it as well, I usually pack a long vacation around one weekend. I think Disney is seeing more and more weekend days open and to avoid that, they are playing within the rules to close those gaps. It wasn't done for our convenience though...

I like how you put it there and think that is likely what happened.

[Ian]

I was careful to ask my guide about how the points could change and specifically asked, "So you are telling me that 11 points for a Sunday through Thursday studio at Saratoga Springs for the value time will never change?" I was told "no" and that was the beauty of the club. This is a mis-representation (to put it in nice terms) from my guide.See, the more I think about it the more I think this is what I was told, too.

Until I read this thread, I never actually remember hearing the whole "points have to stay level over the year" thing. I'm 99.9% sure that we were told " ... we can change the exact dates that make up a season, but a week in a 1BR during value season always has to cost the same amount of points ... "

The more I think about this, the more it makes me a little nervous. This change isn't a big deal, but the fact that they can sort of randomly reallocate points across any time period they want is a tad scary.

And before anyone says it, yes I know I should have understood this before I bought in.

[dlpmikki]

I'm trying to remember what they did the first time they reallocated points back in the 90s. I don't remember it being such a big change but it may just have been it didn't really effect me. I always knew they could make changes within the year.

I think the most worrying thing for me is how many times we hear that guides are no longer telling the whole truth to potential members. Things were much better explained when I joined but it has turned into a big business since then and maybe they are not as fussy in the quality of their guides or their product.

[gmgdisneymom]

this is fine with us - because of the kids we like to go over long weekends - less points means more times we can go

[Ian]

I think the most worrying thing for me is how many times we hear that guides are no longer telling the whole truth to potential members. Things were much better explained when I joined but it has turned into a big business since then and maybe they are not as fussy in the quality of their guides or their product.I think it's more indicative of the overall lack of quality CM's (and quality training) than anything else.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of the guides don't really understand the program that well.

[Septbride2002]

I thought I remember them saying that points could change....but that was so long ago and I was pregnant at the time (I seem to have forgotten a lot of stuff during the incubation period ;) ) so I don't truly remember.

I've done the Sunday through Friday trip to save on points. We don't arrive until Sunday now because of this and usually leave on Saturdays to avoid another expensive point night in the hotel. With only 150 pts I have to get more creative.

~Amanda

[MarkC]

I guess as long as they aren't changing the overall points it's a wash for us. Since we usually travel by plane, we have been avoiding some weekend nights due to the high cost of points. This will make it more feasible for us to come in on Friday or Saturday and get to spend the weekend, vs. coming in on Sunday to avoid taking too many points. Obviously they are not going to be able to please 100% of the people anytime there are changes made. Bottom line for us is that we still love our DVC and our friends are really jealous when they find out we have it. Mark

[Mrs Bus Driver]

I feel for some of you I really do, just when you think you've got things all worked out and to have it changed suddenly. This is just another example of buyer beware:bang:. I feel very grateful to intercot as I wait around for my someday when I can buy into DVC. I feel I will be well informed. I would just like to offer this advice to anyone feeling the need to run and add points, do a little more research first make sure you get the best deal you can get, maybe you don't need more points just be creative on where and when to stay. Okay I'll get off my :soapbox:soapbox now, good luck to all of you.:mickey:

[Aurora]

I'd be willing to bet a lot of the guides don't really understand the program that well.

I tend to think this too. Maybe that's my willingness to believe it's less them misleading potential buyers than really misunderstanding how the system works.

However, has anyone else noticed that for the Grand Villas they've actually INCREASED the points needed on Fri/Sat and DECREASED Sun-Thur? By a LOT.

For example in 2010 a Fri/Sat night stay at a Boardwalk Grand Villa during the summer months is a whopping 20 points more per night than 2009. Weeknights for the same room, same season Sun-Thur are 8 points LESS per night. So the weekly total works out to be the same as before, but now it costs you 100 points on a Thursday and 150 the very next night!! :eek:

And the other thing I don't understand is why the changes already for Bay Lake Tower? Didn't they know this was coming before they put out the original points chart?

[DizneyRox]

And the other thing I don't understand is why the changes already for Bay Lake Tower? Didn't they know this was coming before they put out the original points chart?
Because the Internet "dweebs" would have picked up on it and started speculating immediately. The timing of this is important in some way, and you always release all the information in one chunk.

[Aurora]

Because the Internet "dweebs" would have picked up on it and started speculating immediately. The timing of this is important in some way, and you always release all the information in one chunk.

Well that makes sense, but a 2-bedroom in high summer at BLT even after the change is still 30 points more on a Friday than a Thursday. I think you'd have to be a mind reader to sniff that one out. ;)

By the way, I looked at my numbers again and the Grand Villas at BLT and OKW did NOT go the same way as the Grand Villas at BWV and SSR.

Fri/Sat GV at BLT and OKW did go down as Sun-Thurs went up. But it was the opposite at the BWV and SSR. Now I'm really confused. :confused:

[dephenn]

I have to agree with everything Donald A posted. We travel Sunday - Thursday for several reasons.
1. The points are less.
2. The crowds are less. I love the people of Florida, but I don't want to stare at the back of their heads while in long lines all day. You see they do just what I would do if I lived there and that is go to disney and bring the kids as much as I could and for most of us thats the weekends.
3. Airfare is usually less when traveling on Sundays then on Fridays or Saturdays.
4. I still don't think that they made staying on a Fridays or Saturdays attractive enough point wise to sway the owner that wants to get the most stay for the least amount of points.
5. To make any accusation that owners that stay Sunday-Thursday are trying to beet the system is ridiculous. The point charts were shown to us and we bought into DVC being told that the 11 point studio in 2005 will be an 11 point studio in 2052. Yes I know now I should have had my attorney look it over.
6. If DVC is really trying to get members to stay on Fridays and Saturdays then why not just take what it cost to stay a week and divide it by seven so all nights cost the same. I know I was told that Fridays and Saturdays cost more because the demand is higher. Guess the demand isn't quite what it used to be. Well our President said he'd bring change, but who knew he meant to DVC.
7. It would be nice if DVC would look at our Nation's economic situation and realize that people are trying to stretch there dollars or in this case points as far as they can. They may also realize that the demand for Fridays and Saturdays as dropped because people can't travel for three or four weekend trips like they could during better times. I doubt that with the little drop in points I'll change my vacation habits, except that I might just travel Monday - Wednesday.

[Donald A]

However, has anyone else noticed that for the Grand Villas they've actually INCREASED the points needed on Fri/Sat and DECREASED Sun-Thur? By a LOT.

For example in 2010 a Fri/Sat night stay at a Boardwalk Grand Villa during the summer months is a whopping 20 points more per night than 2009. Weeknights for the same room, same season Sun-Thur are 8 points LESS per night. So the weekly total works out to be the same as before, but now it costs you 100 points on a Thursday and 150 the very next night!! :eek:


The Grand Villa thing supports my position that this is not based on member feedback but on DVC making as money as possible. Think about it. They move points around based on what makes you buy more points. People that can afford the points for a Grand Villa (I know I can't) likely have more money to spend. These people probably can spend the money to buy a plane ticket and go on a whim (probably a weekend). The DVC "powers that be" know this and know that if they raise the weekend points maybe these people will buy more points to continue to vacation how they like. I am not trying to be disrespectful or stereotypical, just make an observation.

This is just like adding more points to the way I like to stay during the week. They figure that if I want to vacation the same way I need more points.

The very fact that Grand Villas went up on the weekend while everything else went down makes me fairly sure that it wasn't member feedback that prompted this change but DVC financial experts.

[wjrhw]

We have been staying at POP upon arrival and checking into the DVC resort starting on Sunday, allowing us to go on two trips per year with our 160 points.

I am not happy with the changes, but I will just adjust my vacations and I will protest financially. I was planning on adding on some points this summer, but now I think i would rather pay for a hotel on some of my stays. Some of the Downtown Disney hotels look beautiful.

I feel like Disney is always playing games with the guests. Trying to get more money for less value and taking away many small perks from the seasoned visitor. I know it's technically the same value, but I can no longer take advantage of the point system to the same degree.

[Donald A]

We have been staying at POP upon arrival and checking into the DVC resort starting on Sunday, allowing us to go on two trips per year with our 160 points.

I am not happy with the changes, but I will just adjust my vacations and I will protest financially. I was planning on adding on some points this summer, but now I think i would rather pay for a hotel on some of my stays. Some of the Downtown Disney hotels look beautiful.

I feel like Disney is always playing games with the guests. Trying to get more money for less value and taking away many small perks from the seasoned visitor. I know it's technically the same value, but I can no longer take advantage of the point system to the same degree.

I agree completely. I was thinking about adding on more points as well, but now I will not. We will just vacation at WDW less often and if we do go as often, stay at those nice hotels in Downtown Disney or even spend a few days in Orlando like Sea World or Universal. These are days that, in the past, we would have spent at Disney.

[WonderlandsMostWanted]

While I am not currently a DVC member, I VERY nearly was as of this past December. I will tell you for CERTAIN that when we sat down with our DVC rep for 4 full hours on the last full day of our vacation in December, we were told repeatedly that the “beauty of the DVC is that the points never change. A Sun-Thurs stay in the [equivalent of Value season, I forget what DVC calls it] that is 17 points per night now, will still be 17 points per night 20 years from now, and until the end of the contract. The points will never change. The exact dates of the seasons may fluctuate a bit year to year, but those Sun – Thurs nights in the [value] season will always be 11 points.” He repeated that over and over, several times during our meeting, and when I called back to ask more questions after we got home, we were given the same shtick. I remember it vividly because he kept saying it over and over. It was the incentive for us to buy.
We got engaged on that trip. We were keeping our wedding small and inexpensive, and this was going to be our wedding gift to each other: a lifetime of Disney Vacations. But, as we are in our early 30’s and didn’t have a ton of money to invest right away, he was trying to get us into a promotion they had where you could buy into AKV for 100 points to start. He encouraged the 150 or 160 points, or whatever it was, as he said we’d get more vacation value out of it, but 100 was what we could afford right NOW, and so that is what he was trying to sell us. With only 100 points to start, even a few points per night difference can have a dramatic effect on how long you can stay and how much you have to borrow and/or carryover per year. I don’t have my info packet with me, so I can’t list specific numbers, but with that 100 points we’d figured out that for our needs (a 1 bedroom so my dad could stay with us when we went) we could just barely get X number of nights, Sun – Thurs stay in per year, and with carryover and borrowing, could make a just the two of us quick trip for about 2 nights every few years to balance out the difference. We couldn’t really afford a full week, with weekends, on those points.
Well, we ran into an emergency that dipped into our down payment money too steeply, so we decided we’d just have to wait it out for a while before we bought into DVC. After reading this, which is decidedly different from what our DVC rep told us, I’m both heartsick and relieved at the same time. If we’d signed on for the 100 points and the promise we were made that those Sun – Thus points would never change, we’d find ourselves no longer being able to plan the same way. I can understand that for the majority of DVC owners, who have more than the usual minimum 160 points, and stay for full weeks at a time, this makes very little difference, and in many instances may even help. But I can’t help feeling that it’s decidedly unfair to people who were “sold” the “beauty of the DVC points is that the points per night never change” pitch to get them into the lower point sales. We were never given the opportunity to look at the full contract. When we asked for a copy of it to go over, we were told that it wasn’t available until we officially agreed ready to make the purchase, so I feel we had no chance to make a real educated decision about the DVC with all of the facts before signing the contract. I can’t help but wonder how many other people found/are finding themselves in this position now. :(

[Ian]

While I am not currently a DVC member, I VERY nearly was as of this past December. I will tell you for CERTAIN that when we sat down with our DVC rep for 4 full hours on the last full day of our vacation in December, we were told repeatedly that the “beauty of the DVC is that the points never change. A Sun-Thurs stay in the [equivalent of Value season, I forget what DVC calls it] that is 17 points per night now, will still be 17 points per night 20 years from now, and until the end of the contract. The points will never change. The exact dates of the seasons may fluctuate a bit year to year, but those Sun – Thurs nights in the [value] season will always be 11 points.”That's what we were told, too. Over and over we were told that.

That's why I'm pretty surprised to find out that, essentially, they can change how many points a given stay costs in a given week.

I can't say I like that too much.

[Donald A]

That's what we were told, too. Over and over we were told that.

That's why I'm pretty surprised to find out that, essentially, they can change how many points a given stay costs in a given week.

I can't say I like that too much.

I am glad people heard the same thing I did. After hearing your story about the THV, Ian, I am beginning to put together this whole picture of how DVC has structured everything to work to their advantage. We pay to build it and maintain it (with dues) and they have figured out how to make a profit out of it. I have caught on and am not happy. Maybe, I was just being hopeful that Disney was around to make magical experiences for people, but the reality is they are here to make money. (I knew that all along anyway) I just don't like it slammed in my face like it has recently.

[Ian]

Well ... I mean I went into it knowing full well Disney was making huge profits from it. I wasn't deluded into thinking it was any sort of humanitarian effort on their part.

But I did think that it was perhaps one of those rare win/win situations where the company profited and so did the guest.

And I still think that, for the most part. But I will admit to being moderately aggravated by what I perceive as some misstatements made during our purchase transaction.

[Disoriented]

I wonder if it’s possible that the current waitlist woes may have had an impact on the recent changes.

When we bought in it was explained to us that the point structure was designed around a seven day Disney vacation and that weekly amounts could fluctuate depending upon member usage. If too many members are trying to book certain times of the year, points could be raised during those times to discourage some of those people from going at that time, but in order to do that they would also have to be lowered at a different time of the year to balance it out. The number of points to rent a room for a year can not go up or down, but the weekly and daily amounts could.

The weekend rates have been higher to discourage people from booking weekends only. If too many weekends are booked it could make it difficult for someone who wanted to stay seven nights to find a room available for those seven consecutive days.

My guess is that there now is many more people booking a Sunday through Thursday stay that there are too many available rooms on the weekends and not enough availability during the week forcing those that want a seven day stay in the same room, on to the waitlist, overloading it and making it difficult for those on it, to get their choice of room.

Just a thought.

[DizneyRox]

I have caught on and am not happy. Maybe, I was just being hopeful that Disney was around to make magical experiences for people, but the reality is they are here to make money. (I knew that all along anyway) I just don't like it slammed in my face like it has recently.
Disney is doing a fantastic job of showing their true colors these days. I have always known they are a business and profit is number one. But you usually don't advertise as much in your normal day to day operations as much as they have been of late.

As with anything they do, you must read between the lines and look at the wording. Everything released from TWDC (or any real business) has gone through what's usually a pretty capable legal team.

[DizneyRox]

My guess is that there now is many more people booking a Sunday through Thursday stay that there are too many available rooms on the weekends and not enough availability during the week forcing those that want a seven day stay in the same room, on to the waitlist, overloading it and making it difficult for those on it, to get their choice of room.
The only correction to this I would make is that they DON'T CARE if I get my choice of room. They would like to even out the stays to keep heads in the beds the entire week. Planing is easier, people would buy more food and spend more, etc. It's not about the guests, it's about profits.

[VWL Mom]

When we bought in it was explained to us that the point structure was designed around a seven day Disney vacation and that weekly amounts could fluctuate depending upon member usage. If too many members are trying to book certain times of the year, points could be raised during those times to discourage some of those people from going at that time, but in order to do that they would also have to be lowered at a different time of the year to balance it out. The number of points to rent a room for a year can not go up or down, but the weekly and daily amounts could.

This is how it was explained to us also and is why we decided to buy 7 nights instead of 6. Now if I can figure out what to do with those extra 3 points each year.....:scratch:

[Ian]

When we bought in it was explained to us that the point structure was designed around a seven day Disney vacation and that weekly amounts could fluctuate depending upon member usage. If too many members are trying to book certain times of the year, points could be raised during those times to discourage some of those people from going at that time, but in order to do that they would also have to be lowered at a different time of the year to balance it out. The number of points to rent a room for a year can not go up or down, but the weekly and daily amounts could.This is a perfect example of why you have to take everything you read on the Internet with a grain of salt ...

I was so adamant that I wasn't told points could change like this, etc. etc., but you know ... as soon as I read Disoriented's post I was like, "Oh yeah ... I do remember Ricardo telling us that!"

So ignore all my previous posts about us not being told that this could happen. We were and I just conveniently forgot about it, I guess. :blush:

[MickeyMousse]

we were told repeatedly that the “beauty of the DVC is that the points never change. :(

I was told the exact same thing when I became a DVC member in 4/02. Sorry, but this reallocation does not make me happy.

How would DVC like it if we all decided to reallocate our monthly dues??????

[MidnTPK]

And I still think that, for the most part. But I will admit to being moderately aggravated by what I perceive as some misstatements made during our purchase transaction.

The understatement of the millennium!

I'm not a DVC owner, but likely will be in the future. But if there is another eternal certainty, other than death and taxes, it's that somewhere along the way in the purchase of a timeshare, the buyer will be mistaken about something, if not deliberately mislead by the seller.

Mind you I also know that the seller rarely 100% lies. The whole process and transaction is just too detailed and too complex for a buyer to understand without lots and lots of research. S/he is just talking about one thing while your asking about another. Like the total number of points at a resort can NEVER change. The seller is talking about the whole resort. The buyer is talking about the week s/he intends to use in the future. Honest or dishonest seller....you make the call.

[gallicdenis]

Like most of you I was caught off guard by the change. I only found out when I visited the "News" section of the DVC Member Site. We have been able to travel to WDW twice a year now that most of our children have left the nest (we have six). Hence, we no longer require the larger accomodations. Not only have we been able to travel to WDW more often but our trips are a little longer. We've been able to average 12 days per trip. Obviously this includes at least one weekend. Under the new formula we will lose 14 points, or one day, at our home resort during our late spring/early summer visit and one point(which isn't too bad) during our Christmas visit. I does affect our banking of a very small amount of points which does translate into a loss of a few days over time. We paid off our interest so our only cost, excluding transportation, etc,. is the maintenance fees. What has been going through my mind now is would we now be better off without the membership and using the money allocated for maintenance fees to take advantage of the "stay 4 and get 3 for free" promotions with the free dining plan.

Like many of you it was our understanding that the points could be adjusted but that the cost per week would remain the same. Obviously that is not true. I did register my feeling with DVC through the "Contact" link at the member website. I received the following response:

Thank you for contacting Disney Vacation Club.

We appreciate your feedback regarding the adjustments made to the
Vacation Points Charts for 2010. Disney Vacation Club Members have
expressed that they would like to be able to use their Membership on
weekends, but felt the Vacation Points in general were too high on
Fridays and Saturdays. We understand Members will have different points
of view based on their situation. As we do with every change, we
evaluate the current booking patterns and look at future patterns to
determine what is in the best interest of our Members and the business.


The Multi-Site Public Offering Statement Text, Section 3 (2)(a) outlines
DVCMC?s right to increase or decrease the Home Resort Vacation Points
reservation requirements in order to meet Club Members? needs and
expectations. The changes also benefit our Disney Vacation Club Members
through managing expenses, and also ensure a more balanced demand
throughout the year.

As you have seen in the charts, some Vacation Points totals per week
have changed slightly up or down. Additionally, the nightly Vacation
Points have been reallocated at some Disney Vacation Club Resorts; any
increase in nightly Vacation Point requirements is offset by a
corresponding decrease. However, the total number of Vacation Points
for any particular Disney Vacation Club Resort will never change.
Section 3(2)(a) also provides a guideline by which DVCMC will adhere
when making Points Chart changes, which is the reallocation will not
exceed 20% without the express approval of at least 60% of the existing
owners.

The feedback we receive from our Members is important to us, and your
comments will be shared with our leadership team.

Thank you again for sharing your concern.

Sincerely,

Disney Vacation Club Member Services

Perhaps DVC will re-evaluate if they are inundated with comments from more DVC members. But, if like me, they found out about the points change "accidently" since DVC appears to have been keeping this one Disney's (sic) "Best Kept Secret." :mad:

[DizneyRox]

Perhaps DVC will re-evaluate if they are inundated with comments from more DVC members.
Nope... Disney doesn't work that way. Money talks, not actions...

[hubbyofadisneyholic]

I think we all have to rmember one very basic point...
DVC holds all the cards and ANY changes are going to be made for their benefit (profit) not ours.

[Donald A]

I think we all have to rmember one very basic point...
DVC holds all the cards and ANY changes are going to be made for their benefit (profit) not ours.

Yep, if it was based on member feedback why did they raise the weekend value of the Grand Villas?

[Donald A]

As we do with every change, we
evaluate the current booking patterns and look at future patterns to
determine what is in the best interest of our Members and the business.

I love this part of the email you received. The best interest of our Members AND THE BUSINESS. There you have it.

[DVC Mike]

The Multi-Site Public Offering Statement Text, Section 3 (2)(a) outlines
DVCMC's right to increase or decrease the Home Resort Vacation Points
reservation requirements in order to meet Club Members' needs and
expectations. The changes also benefit our Disney Vacation Club Members
through managing expenses, and also ensure a more balanced demand
throughout the year.


DVCMC has the right, and more importantly the responsibility, to evaluate usage patterns and reallocate the points to balance usage based upon demand.

[gallicdenis]

Several years ago, before I retired, I attended a "Keys to the Kingdom" leadership presentation by the Disney Institute. In presenting the guiding principles behind the Disney business philosophy that originated with Walt Disney there are several things I took away from it. First is the concept of plusing. This was Walt's philosophy of providing the guests what they expected and something extra and unexpected. The other is, at least at the time of the presentation, that they care about perceptions. The two presenters stated that Disney has cast members whose sole job responsibility is to read posts, forums, blogs, and discussion lists to review the comments and perceptions of the Disney products. I was left with the impression that they take the comments seriously and consider them when attempting to correct issues and negative feedback from Disney consumers.

Profit is a motive for any business. DVC has provided significant chunk of cash for the Parks and Resorts operating profits. Unfortunately the revised points chart seems to have created, if I may use rhetoric to describe taxation policies, a regressive system. For our home resort it benefits those folks that use the larger accomodations, ie. Grand Villas, with the point burden being placed on those that require the less luxurious or smaller accomodations, ie. studios and one bedroom. On the DVC member website it is stated that "the adjusted charts make accommodations more affordable during many popular Walt Disney World® events, such as Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party and ESPN The Weekend." This is blatantly untrue for our home resort. We do Xmas at Disney and, in 2010, it will cost us more points, contrary to the news bite on the DVC member site.

A recent article in the Orlando Sentinel may shed a little more light on the idea of profit over plusing:



Loss of credit line pinches Disney time-shares' profits"Jason Garcia | Sentinel Staff Writer
February 12, 2009
The lending turmoil racking the nation's time-share industry is squeezing even the Walt Disney Co.

The company recently disclosed that its Celebration-based time-share arm, Disney Vacation Club, lost access to a long-standing line of credit it had been tapping to raise cash by selling bundles of the time-share mortgages it issues to individual buyers.

Although Disney said time-share sales rose during its fiscal first quarter, which ended Dec. 27, the subsequent sales of "mortgage receivables" plummeted: According to a recent regulatory filing, the company sold $17 million in receivables during the quarter, down from $41 million a year ago.

Packaging time-share mortgages together and selling them off to investors -- "securitizing" them -- has been a valuable profit center for Disney Vacation Club in recent years. Disney Co. Chief Financial Officer Tom Staggs said during a December conference with analysts that the practice generated about $40 million in operating profit last year for Vacation Club.



That's about 2 percent of the $1.9 billion in operating profit rung up by Disney's worldwide parks-and-resorts division in fiscal 2008.

Staggs warned at the time that the nation's frozen credit markets would likely make lending terms so unfavorable that Disney would do "less or no" securitization in 2009. He also acknowledged that being forced to carry the time-share mortgages, rather than cash them out immediately, could slow Disney Vacation Club's earnings growth.

"There is profit that we don't make," Staggs said. "We'll make it over time, as opposed to realizing it in the current year when we do the securitization."

Disney has historically helped about 75 percent of its time-share buyers finance their purchases, according to research by Morgan Stanley. Sales prices typically range between $20,000 and $30,000 for the equivalent of a one-week share in a two-bedroom unit.

Disney's credit facility, which it initially secured in December 1999, expired Dec. 4, according to company filings.

Similar problems are buffeting the rest of the time-share industry, as the market for all manner of mortgage-backed securities has fizzled. Some developers -- dependent on the capital raised from reselling time-share notes to continue growing -- have been forced to lay off hundreds of employees and slow or halt construction.

Analysts say there is little chance that Disney could be forced to take similar steps. The sprawling media-and-entertainment conglomerate is large enough that it can likely self-finance mortgages and hold the notes as long as needed without jeopardizing its construction plans.

"It probably makes the time-share division less profitable than it would have otherwise been," said Robert LaFleur, a lodging analyst with Susquehanna Financial Group. "But from a practical matter about Disney's ability to build and sell time shares, it shouldn't have an effect."


More time-shares to open

Disney plans to open three new time-share properties in Orlando this year and one in Anaheim, Calif. It is also pressing ahead with plans for 830-room resort in Hawaii, in which 480 units are to be Vacation Club villas. Construction on that resort, which is to open in 2011, began in January.

Any slip at Disney Vacation Club could have broader implications for Disney's parks-and-resorts division, where the time-share unit has become an important growth engine. The theme-park division accounts for more than a quarter of Disney Co.'s total revenue.


Club key part of profit

Morgan Stanley estimates that Vacation Club accounted for as much as 20 percent of the profit growth for Disney Parks and Resorts in fiscal 2008. Disney itself credited higher time-share sales with helping offset declines elsewhere in its parks unit during the first quarter of fiscal 2009; total revenue for Parks and Resorts fell about 4 percent during the quarter from a year earlier, less than many analysts had expected.

Vacation Club contributes about 10 percent of the parks-and-resorts unit's total profit, Staggs said during the December analyst conference.

Disney's time-share unit is a "swing factor" for the parks division overall in 2009, Morgan Stanley analyst Benjamin Swinburne wrote in a research note last month. He has forecast a "small increase" for Vacation Club in 2009, compared with an estimated 18 percent growth rate last year."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/busin...,4931450.story

[DVC Mike]

Profit is a motive for any business.

Your posting of a seemingly unrelated article seems to be an attempt to imply that the sole motivation behind the 2010 point reallocation is profit.

I must disagree.

Many people purchased just enough points to stay only Sunday-Thursday nights. The points on Friday and Saturday night were being underutilized. It's quite easy to book Friday and Saturday nights in comparison to Sunday-Thursday. Its also obvious when Sunday is the biggest check-in date and Friday is the biggest check-out date.

The system is out of balance. The points needed to be reallocated based upon this usage pattern. The supply of available units needed to be balanced against demand.

Why argue ulterior motives when the one they gave fits so well?

[TheRustyScupper]

1) I was in a discussion regarding this.
2) There has been a major shift in non-DVC guests.
3) In the 90's there were lots of weekend trips.
4) Thus, advantageous to have fewer DVC members and more cash guests.
5) The shift no is toward full week vacations.
6) So, it is better to have weekday DVC rooms available for cash.
7) SSR and VWL already see a higher weekend DVC-member use.

[Donald A]

Why argue ulterior motives when the one they gave fits so well?

Respectfully, why should I trust what they tell me. I was told a studio at SSR would be 11 points Monday - Thursday in the value season. That it would never change. Well, it has after I was told it would not. Yes, I was told that, my wife and I remember this.

I now see it in the contract. So what, I am already upset by what happened. I have also learned that in a pressure situation (or any situation) when faced with signing a contract, the response is simple. "I am not going to sign this without an attorney looking at it." I have learned this since then with this and with other instances in my life.

Look, am I going to use my DVC membership? Sure, just not as much. I will vacation less at Disney now. Also I will likely not add on points in the future as I once thought I would.

[DVC Mike]

Respectfully, why should I trust what they tell me. I was told a studio at SSR would be 11 points Monday - Thursday in the value season. That it would never change. Well, it has after I was told it would not. Yes, I was told that, my wife and I remember this.


Respectfully, DVC was very upfront that while the total number of points to book the entire resort would never change, DVC can reallocate up to 20% per calendar year.

The 2-page Product Understanding Checklist (which everyone signs) clearly states:

The number of Vacation Points required to reserve any specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change based on seasonal demand.

I don't think you need to be a lawyer to understand the Product Understanding Checklist, as it's written in clear English.



Look, am I going to use my DVC membership? Sure, just not as much. I will vacation less at Disney now. Also I will likely not add on points in the future as I once thought I would.


So, how does that impact the argument that DVC did this for profit? :confused:

[GAN]

They're probably going to save big on those resort-DVC transfers ... I can almost hear the bellhops yawning from here(or will some be laid off?).

[Donald A]

Respectfully, DVC was very upfront that while the total number of points to book the entire resort would never change, DVC can reallocate up to 20% per calendar year.

I do not get how you can tell me DVC was very upfront about this when I as well as others in this thread said they were never told this during the pitch. Yes, I see it in the contract. I have learned my lesson to really digest a contract before signing. I should not have signed that day and took awhile to think about what I was really doing. To me, however, being upfront includes mentioning it in a pitch and not, in fact, saying the points on a given night would NOT change.

[Donald A]

The 2-page Product Understanding Checklist (which everyone signs) clearly states:

The number of Vacation Points required to reserve any specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change based on seasonal demand.

I don't think you need to be a lawyer to understand the Product Understanding Checklist, as it's written in clear English.

Based on seasonal demand to me means holidays and the sort not necessarily weekday to weekend. So if you combine that with being told something like I was in a pitch I can be confused. To me that is not clear English, but what do I know, I only have a doctorate and am a physician.

[gallicdenis]

I was pleasantly surprised this Sunday. I received a phone call from DVC regarding my note to them regarding the new points chart. He stated that he wanted to clarify my concerns so that he could relate them back to the decision-making folks accurately. In a nutshell he stated that DVC is concerned about the impact their decisions make on its members and that they respond, via phone call, to every email, letter, or phone call, regarding DVC concerns. I am continuall impressed with the extra efforts or, as Walt Disney called it, "plusing." This goes a long way to reinforce my positive feelings about Disney and DVC. My voice may not result in any changes but at least I feel that I was heard. :mickey:

[DizneyRox]

I was pleasantly surprised this Sunday. I received a phone call from DVC regarding my note to them regarding the new points chart. He stated that he wanted to clarify my concerns so that he could relate them back to the decision-making folks accurately. In a nutshell he stated that DVC is concerned about the impact their decisions make on its members and that they respond, via phone call, to every email, letter, or phone call, regarding DVC concerns. I am continuall impressed with the extra efforts or, as Walt Disney called it, "plusing." This goes a long way to reinforce my positive feelings about Disney and DVC. My voice may not result in any changes but at least I feel that I was heard. :mickey:
Actually, this isn't plussing, it's damage control. It is nice to see them calling people back, but I don't know if I have really ever heard of anything ever happening as a result. More often that not, you get, "I'll be sure to forward this to the depart that handles this." When I say that to people, it means I'm putting this the circular file.

[gallicdenis]

"Well of course, happiness is a state of mind. You can be happy or you can be unhappy. It's just according to the way you look at things. You know." -- Walt Disney

I'll take my Disney fix anytime, anyway, anyhow. :thumbsup:

[TinksDH]

Based on seasonal demand to me means holidays and the sort not necessarily weekday to weekend. So if you combine that with being told something like I was in a pitch I can be confused. To me that is not clear English, but what do I know, I only have a doctorate and am a physician.

"Seasonal demand" refers to Disney's use of seasons for point values - Value Season, Regular Season, Peak Season, etc. Just like the dates of the seasons can be adjusted depending on where holidays fall, the point values within a season, and within a week, can be adjusted as well. All that is required is that the total annual allotment of points does not change for a specific unit at a specific property.

I really can't see how you can possibly be angry at this change, as it's spelled out very clearly in the checklist that you signed when purchasing your contract. I guess the thought is that even though you read it, you really didn't think they'd act on it? :confused:

[DizneyRox]

I really can't see how you can possibly be angry at this change, as it's spelled out very clearly in the checklist that you signed when purchasing your contract. I guess the thought is that even though you read it, you really didn't think they'd act on it? :confused:
Actually, it's 1/2 Disney's fault for their guides not explaining it correctly. It's 1/2 member's fault for not being informed buyers (but they you go back to the other 1/2 as well.

In general though, many consumers really don't understand what's going on around them. Signs like up to 75% off! are created like that on purpose. In order for that sign to be accurate, only one item in the store needs to be at 75% off, the rest of the store could be full price. But you'll see a ton of people arguing with the workers that not everything is 75% off, false advertising, etc.

Words are chosen wisely in any and all advertising material, and even in the contracts. It may be easy to interpret it several ways, but, there really is only one legally.

Buyer beware...

BTW - I'm happy about these changes. They don't impact me really, I spend more than a week usually and many times over two weekends. I can see where those who bought small contracts with big plans would be irritated.

[gallicdenis]

I'm shortsighted, selfish & myopic. With that said I think all of us want to get the most bang for the buck. In our situation the updated points charts would have been helpful about 5 years ago when all our kids were still at home (we have six). The charts appear to benefit those that use the larger accomodations. Now that we are on the verge of being empty nester's the new chart is having the opposite impact. With the economy in its current state, and the incentives such as "FREE Disney Dining Plan when you purchase one of these 5-night/6-day Magic Your Way hotel and theme park ticket packages" or the "Buy 4 nights and get three for free," makes one take pause. We can get a very nice vacation with the free Disney Dining Plan for the cost of our maintenance fees alone. That is enough to dissuade me from considering an additional ownership interest at this time. How will that effect others considering DVC?

[Priority Four]

I really don't care for the change because the cheaper weekday rates worked well for us.

I must have had a great guide when we bought becuase I remember him covering the point re-allocation very well. I was actually suprised that it did not change the first few years I was a member.

With regard to the incentives offered to the public. It sort of feels like we are getting the short end of the stick by not extending these great deals to those of us who are "longtime Disney supporters" and owners. When I think hard about it this is where I'm at:

- These discounts are not permanent. They are designed to get people in and prop up sagging resevations during this time.

- I need Disney to fill the resort so that they can continue to operate at the level I have come to expect.

-This may be a great time to bank some points and take a cash trip.