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Gator
06-11-2008, 08:56 PM
I drive for a living and my employer refuses to raise reimbursment for mileage. Plus, I'm taking a trip to Yellowstone next week, and gas is going to eat my lunch. It makes me so happy to know that the politicians are refusing to let us drill for more oil to help ease the burden on us middle-class peons. Must be nice to be driven around in limos and have government gas cards.:thedolls:

jennsky
06-11-2008, 09:57 PM
I commute to work 100km round-trip a day (just over 60 miles a day) and the price of gas is hurting me too. Up in Canada, it is $1.30/litre which works out to over $5.20 US a gallon. So we're feeling the pinch up here too. I work afternoons and evenings and public transit around here doesn't cater very well to those kind of hours. So, yes, I feel your pain.

BUT, with that being said, I don't think that means we should be drilling in the north for oil...that's only a band-aid solution. From what I understand, even if they were to get oil from Alaska, it would be 10 years or more before that gas would be flowing to the pumps. I think the big problem is that big business is greedy and even though the technology is out there for more fuel efficient vehicles, the general public hasn't been given access to them because we haven't taken issue with paying the prices at the pumps. NOW people are getting angry and frustrated, and as shown by the layoffs GM announced last week at their "gas-guzzling" truck plants, maybe now they're realizing they need to get their behinds in gear and flood the market with hybrids/electric cars if they have any hope of staying in the business.

DisneyWhirled
06-11-2008, 10:21 PM
Feeling it here, too! Also, just found out today that my lock in heating oil price will be $4.29/gal for a total of approx $4300 to heat our home in 08-09. Last year we locked in @ $2.29/gal...that is a $2K difference. I just want to cry.:(

Our oil bill is going to be just over our real estate taxes for the 08-09 year. And we keep the house no higher than 63 degrees and add blankets/sweaters, etc.

I really wonder how anyone can make it in the current economy. Sorry to be a downer!

Gator
06-12-2008, 01:24 AM
BUT, with that being said, I don't think that means we should be drilling in the north for oil...that's only a band-aid solution. From what I understand, even if they were to get oil from Alaska, it would be 10 years or more before that gas would be flowing to the pumps. .

People have been saying that since George W brought it up 8 years ago. They keep saying, "It won't help now." Just imagine if we had started drilling back then- we'd be seeing the fruit of our labors soon and oil futures would be way down. I guess we have to say, what do we want the future to look like: $10/gallon? If we don't drill now, that's what we'll face. And people will still be saying, "drilling won't help now." If someone had thought about helping our future a decade ago, the whole economy would be much better now. Let's hope our politicians do something right.

Seasonscraps
06-12-2008, 01:54 AM
I think the problem goes back further then that...what happened to all the alternative fuel/energy methods that were going to be developed after the gas crunch/recession of the 70's?

DisneyDog
06-12-2008, 10:39 AM
I saw a guy on abc news the other night who is a mechanic. He switched out his motor for a diesel motor and now his car runs on canola oil. He is getting twice the mileage he was getting before. Only thing is, he charges about $35,000 to have him switch the motor. This is something that car manufacturers could install off the assembly line. We could be buying our fuel at the supermarket.

I have a friend who bought an old diesel junker and fixed it up (somewhat). He runs the car off of vegetable oil also. I've personally seen the car with my own eyes. I know it can be done.

Scar
06-12-2008, 11:12 AM
... it would be 10 years or more before that gas would be flowing to the pumps.


Just imagine if we had started drilling back then- we'd be seeing the fruit of our labors soon and oil futures would be way down.Not only that, but some of the price of oil is based on futures, so even if we started now, just knowing it will be available in the future will help bring the price down. Maybe not a lot, but every penny helps.

10 years goes by pretty quick. I know I'll still be heating my home and driving a car 10 years from now.

Enough is enough. Let's start drilling now!

Princess'Mom
06-12-2008, 01:43 PM
I drive 140 miles roundtrip to my job every day. I get 31-32 mpg so filling up my gas tank every 3 days is a real bummer. I realize that I may not be the 'normal' commuter, but it is taking a toll on our household budget. Moving closer to my job really isn't an option and getting a new job isn't a great solution either. We live in a very rural community where job opportunities are slim to none. Kind of depressing, but I guess I should look on the bright side - we are healthy, have a roof over our heads and have plenty to eat.

laprana
06-12-2008, 02:03 PM
I have a friend who bought an old diesel junker and fixed it up (somewhat). He runs the car off of vegetable oil also. I've personally seen the car with my own eyes. I know it can be done.

There is a guy in my town that did this same thing. He has an old Volvo that originally ran on diesel, and he converted it to run on cooking oil. He goes around to the local fast food joints and collects their old, used oil and that's what he uses to fuel his car! They're happy to be rid of it and he's happy to take it!

Disney Doll
06-12-2008, 02:52 PM
BUT, with that being said, I don't think that means we should be drilling in the north for oil...that's only a band-aid solution. From what I understand, even if they were to get oil from Alaska, it would be 10 years or more before that gas would be flowing to the pumps. I think the big problem is that big business is greedy and even though the technology is out there for more fuel efficient vehicles, the general public hasn't been given access to them because we haven't taken issue with paying the prices at the pumps. NOW people are getting angry and frustrated, and as shown by the layoffs GM announced last week at their "gas-guzzling" truck plants, maybe now they're realizing they need to get their behinds in gear and flood the market with hybrids/electric cars if they have any hope of staying in the business.


I agree! We don't need more oil, we need more efficient vehicles and alternative solutions. No matter where we drill it will eventually run out. Then what? We need a major transformation not just a temporary fix. I wish my area had a better public transportation system. If we did I'd use it. Luckily I drive a pretty fuel efficient vehicle anyway.

Gator
06-12-2008, 03:12 PM
No matter where we drill it will eventually run out. Then what? We need a major transformation not just a temporary fix. I wish my area had a better public transportation system. If we did I'd use it. Luckily I drive a pretty fuel efficient vehicle anyway.

Our society runs on oil now, so we need more oil now. We haven't been very good about finding new power sources. Ethanol is a joke. Environmentalists won't let us use nuclear power. We have no choice but to use fossil fuels. How about drill now, pay less (for gas, food, and any other good being transported), let the government subsidize solar power technology development(and not waste money on Ethanol), and quit making excuses. Besides, I can't get to WDW on leftover cooking oil. It takes jet fuel which takes oil. By not drilling, someone is keeping me from returning to WDW. People have been hurt for much less.:D

Ian
06-12-2008, 04:21 PM
I saw a guy on abc news the other night who is a mechanic. He switched out his motor for a diesel motor and now his car runs on canola oil. I think I saw this guy on an episode of Dirty Jobs. ;)

FYI, though, while it might appear to be a good long term solution, it's really not. It actually takes more energy to do all the work to convert the oil to fuel than you end up getting from the fuel.

It's a novelty, but it's definitely not a viable long term solution.

Hull-onian
06-12-2008, 07:17 PM
I am suppose to take a trip :car: to Maine. It is about a four hour ride up. We cancelled. We are gonna go to Cape Cod instead for two days. That's it. Gas here is now $4.07 to $4.29 a gallon, so we are not gonna travel too far away.:(

Flower
06-12-2008, 10:52 PM
Must be nice to be driven around in limos and have government gas cards.:thedolls:

Interesting point....bring that up and see how the politicians squirm at the mere suggestion they give up their gas cards & limos.

I find it ironic that in times past whenever we would travel near Ottawa, Canada's capital, the gas prices would be lower and increase as you traveled further West.

Why not drill on north American soil, it would produce jobs, hopefully increase manufacturing if the rigs were built here, and in the long run lower prices. Ahhh, but that all makes sense and why would we want to make our economy more efficient?

Hammer
06-13-2008, 12:34 AM
Drilling for oil in new places is NOT the solution. All that could do is give us more unrefined oil. What needs to happen is for these fat cat oil companies is to modernize their refineries so that they can cleanly increase output. Heaven forbid you cut into their billions of dollars in profits...

Ian
06-13-2008, 07:33 AM
Drilling for oil in new places is NOT the solution. All that could do is give us more unrefined oil. What needs to happen is for these fat cat oil companies is to modernize their refineries so that they can cleanly increase output. Heaven forbid you cut into their billions of dollars in profits...Well actually, from what I've read, most oil companies are investing heavily in their refineries.

But not surprisingly, no one wants a new oil refinery in their backyard so it's near impossible for them to actually increase refining output by any significant margin.

However, I agree in principle that the real need is for more refining capacity and not necessarily more unrefined oil.

Hammer
06-13-2008, 08:30 AM
Ian,. there are at least 2 refineries (that I know of) in our backyard right now which are not performing anywhere near compacity. I actually think the one in Swedesboro, NJ may not even be open. I say get all of the existing refineries up to code and operating at compacity before you even think about drilling in any new area.

Ian
06-13-2008, 08:49 AM
Oh, oh I'm sorry Christine ... I thought you were talking about adding new refining capacity.

Anyway, we agree ... I don't really think drilling for more oil is the answer to this problem. We have to find long term solutions to our energy needs, not just keep extending our dependence on foreign oil.

thrillme
06-13-2008, 08:53 AM
To me it seems like SOMEBODY'S profiting from oil being the price per barrel it is. But there's a lot of "Not I" going on then they're secretly going home and doing the "happy dance"

Personally I tend to agree with the previous poster...I like solar power. If I had the money and engineering skills I'd LOVE to create a solar powered car. I figure one that runs one gas during low long periods of low light and solar power the rest of the time would be perfect. They have solar powered lights that charge and run all night seems like they could do the same for cars.

I admit and I'm probably the only one that feels this way...but I'm "almost" concerned about gas going back down. (please I said "almost" :blush:). Whereas the "pinch" is hurting me too...right now there are a lot of "inventors" coming out of the woodwork looking for alternative means of fueling transportation. Hydrofuel, battery, cooking oil and I saw one prototype gas engine that's getting 150 mpg. We've been down this road before...gas shortages everywhere, rising costs, people running out and buying tiny cars. THEN gas prices go down and everybody goes back to sleep...We just never get "scared" enough to create a more PERMANANT solution.

But look who's talking...I have a Santa Fe and I really don't want to drive a smaller car again. Besides I still owe to much to get rid of it.

Ian
06-13-2008, 09:06 AM
I admit and I'm probably the only one that feels this way...but I'm "almost" concerned about gas going back down.You're not the only one. I feel the same way.

Scar
06-13-2008, 09:13 AM
... I don't really think drilling for more oil is the answer to this problem. We have to find long term solutions to our energy needs, not just keep extending our dependence on foreign oil.Yes, but even if those "long term solutions" were invented and perfected today, it would still take a long time for most people to convert, and some things may never convert. I know I'm not going to run right out and spend who knows how much to replace my furnace, and I suspect most people would have the same cautious attitude. Certainly the airlines, trucking, shipping, and freight train companies aren’t going to convert overnight. The poor countries that run their power plants on fuel aren't building new ones anytime soon. No matter what happens as far as new inventions and alternative sources (which I agree we need,) we will still need oil in some capacity, possibly forever. The best way to not depend on foreign oil is to drill for it ourselves.

ETA: And even if the USA was 100% alternative, there will still be other countries that need it, we can sell it to them and maybe join OPEC. ;)

Disney Doll
06-13-2008, 11:54 AM
I admit and I'm probably the only one that feels this way...but I'm "almost" concerned about gas going back down. (please I said "almost" :blush:). Whereas the "pinch" is hurting me too...right now there are a lot of "inventors" coming out of the woodwork looking for alternative means of fueling transportation. Hydrofuel, battery, cooking oil and I saw one prototype gas engine that's getting 150 mpg. We've been down this road before...gas shortages everywhere, rising costs, people running out and buying tiny cars. THEN gas prices go down and everybody goes back to sleep...We just never get "scared" enough to create a more PERMANANT solution.


I agree!! I don't like paying the high prices for gas, but I do think necessity is the master of all invention.

diz_girl
06-13-2008, 12:01 PM
Thankfully, I'm not hurting, as my commute is very short and I drive a fuel-efficient vehicle (diesel Jetta). That being said, you know prices are high when it costs almost $60 to fill up a Jetta.

Although there is a big switch to smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles, I'm considering going with something bigger, like the Ford Escape Hybrid. Yes, small is fuel-efficient, but someone where I work just got killed in a car accident where a produce delivery truck rear-ended his Honda Civic, running over and crushing the car and him in it. The car looked like an accordian. If that happened to my car, my 11 month-old son in the backseat would have been killed and probably me too.

As for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, that would give the U.S. three-to-six months' worth of oil. That's it. And it wouldn't make a dent in gas prices, unlike what the petroleum industry would like you to believe.

What we need is conservation, which we as a nation has not been doing since the last gas crisis. Maybe if and when gas prices go down to more reasonable levels, people won't become compacent again like they always do after any crisis.

I know that I sound a little contradictory possibly switching to a larger car, but everyone doesn't need AWD and a 275hp engine in their car, so I'd get front-wheel drive and the smallest engine that I can get. The car that I ahve now is just fine at 100 hp and front-wheel drive. Just reducing engine size and hp can do a lot for conservation efforts, as can changing one's driving habits, like driving 65 mph on highways rather than 80mph. Maybe more people should try hypermiling. I'm starting use some hypermiling tricks myself.

Jasper
06-13-2008, 12:03 PM
Yes, but even if those "long term solutions" were invented and perfected today, it would still take a long time for most people to convert, and some things may never convert. I know I'm not going to run right out and spend who knows how much to replace my furnace, and I suspect most people would have the same cautious attitude. Certainly the airlines, trucking, shipping, and freight train companies aren’t going to convert overnight. The poor countries that run their power plants on fuel aren't building new ones anytime soon. No matter what happens as far as new inventions and alternative sources (which I agree we need,) we will still need oil in some capacity, possibly forever. The best way to not depend on foreign oil is to drill for it ourselves.

ETA: And even if the USA was 100% alternative, there will still be other countries that need it, we can sell it to them and maybe join OPEC. ;)

:ditto::exactly: I agree with just about all of this! I would also add that when just about any technology is new it costs so much more than the already existing alternatives. So, the only way some new technology is going to have an immediate impact is for the government to step in and subsidize its use. And considering how the government has a penchant for screwing things up I don't think that is necessarily the best route to go! :D:D

Of course, putting aside all issues with the government's ability to handle things there is also the issue of the government being able to properly identify which is the new technology they should get behind. In these days of lobbyist control of things the truth is often the first victim in any discussion! (And no, that is not a comment for or against any particular candidate for any office!! No matter who is in office the lobbyists will still be a force to reckon with!)

BelleLovesTheBeast
06-13-2008, 12:24 PM
I admit and I'm probably the only one that feels this way...but I'm "almost" concerned about gas going back down. (please I said "almost" :blush:). Whereas the "pinch" is hurting me too...right now there are a lot of "inventors" coming out of the woodwork looking for alternative means of fueling transportation. Hydrofuel, battery, cooking oil and I saw one prototype gas engine that's getting 150 mpg. We've been down this road before...gas shortages everywhere, rising costs, people running out and buying tiny cars. THEN gas prices go down and everybody goes back to sleep...We just never get "scared" enough to create a more PERMANANT solution.

I agree 100% that a permanent solution is the key. Because the oil industry employees so many people we can't get away from oil. It would lead to just a different crisis. However what the government needs to do is force the auto industry to develop cars that run on gas and another energy source. That way less gas is used and possibly more jobs are created. Create a mileage minimum that the manufactures must meet. That way they would be forced to develop more fuel efficient vehicles.

Ian
06-13-2008, 12:32 PM
No matter what happens as far as new inventions and alternative sources (which I agree we need,) we will still need oil in some capacity, possibly forever.Unfortunately, that's impossible. There isn't an infinite supply of oil.


As for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, that would give the U.S. three-to-six months' worth of oil. That's it. And it wouldn't make a dent in gas prices, unlike what the petroleum industry would like you to believe.

What we need is conservation, which we as a nation has not been doing since the last gas crisis.That is pretty much true ... even the highest estimates of available Alaskan oil is around 10 billion barrels.

I forget what the actual number of U.S. oil consumed in a year is, but we consume hundreds of billions of gallons of gas each year, so at best you're talking it's 10% of our available supply of gas for a year. And we all know that one barrel of oil does not produce one barrel of gas, so it's even less than that really.

I'm not really with you on the whole conservation thing, though. I don't really see what that buys us. Maybe some time, but the problem is you run the risk of demand dropping and then the price dropping back down to reasonable levels.

If that happens, people stop caring again. You can hope it won't happen all you want, but it will anyway.

Scar
06-13-2008, 01:13 PM
Unfortunately, that's impossible. There isn't an infinite supply of oil.
Yea, poor choice of words. How about a very, very long time. At least long enough until all of the equipment that consumes fuel oil can be phased out at a reasonable pace.

The US consumes 21 million barrels a day. So even if ANWR was our only source, it would last a year and a half. But of course it is not our only source. If it supplied 10% of our demand (2.1 m per day) it would last close to 15 years. At 5% it would last 25-30 years. Assuming we stay around 21 m barrels a day. It could change either way depending on what course we take conservation / alternative wise.

And regarding the price. I’m a capitalist. Gas should cost what people are willing to pay for it. My main point is that if we can get 2 m barrels a day from ANWR, and even more millions a day from other sources like off shore, then that is x million barrels a day less we have to buy from Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc.

Ian
06-13-2008, 04:56 PM
Yea, poor choice of words. How about a very, very long time. At least long enough until all of the equipment that consumes fuel oil can be phased out at a reasonable pace.

The US consumes 21 million barrels a day. So even if ANWR was our only source, it would last a year and a half. But of course it is not our only source. If it supplied 10% of our demand (2.1 m per day) it would last close to 15 years. At 5% it would last 25-30 years. Assuming we stay around 21 m barrels a day. It could change either way depending on what course we take conservation / alternative wise.

And regarding the price. I’m a capitalist. Gas should cost what people are willing to pay for it. My main point is that if we can get 2 m barrels a day from ANWR, and even more millions a day from other sources like off shore, then that is x million barrels a day less we have to buy from Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc.Come on now, Scar ... don't you remember your Ellen's Energy Adventure??


Dream Ellen: Oh! Oh! I know this one! What is black gold? Texas tea. Swimmin' pools. Movie stars. What is the Beverly Hillbillies? I -- I mean, what is oil?
Bill: Right! It's our main source of energy, and we've found enough to last at least fifty years.

Ellen's Energy Adventure opened in 1996 (12 years ago) so that means we only have 38 years worth of oil left!!

Okay, so I'll remove my tongue from my cheek now. :D

PirateLover
06-13-2008, 11:28 PM
For starters I want to be clear that I am very pro-environment, anti-pollution and all that good stuff. But I am also realistic and I know that we still have a wait ahead of us before we find a viable energy alternative available to the masses.

One thing I'd like to add to the discussion is that many of our nation's oil refineries are actually independent of the big oil companies and cannot be tied to their profits. They buy the oil from companies like EXXON and then refine it. You could argue that the companies should invest in building their own but those permits are hard to come by these days.

Tesoro, Sunoco, and United Refining are actually losing money. Sunoco, who has two refineries close to me, lost $123 million in the first quarter and last I heard was batting around the idea of selling some of their refineries.
Valero, which is our largest independent refiner, had profits of $261 million in the first quarter...compare that to $1.1 billion last year. They are feeling the hurt of rising gas prices as well, and as a result production is down which raises the prices more... it's a vicious cycle.

Ideally I wish we could increase our refining capability, drill in ANWR/ offshore, all the while continuing to encourage alternative energy, which will all help to bring the current costs back down. I don't like the reasoning behind not wanting oil to drop again... I think at this point everyone realizes we need to find another option but lets be honest with ourselves, it's not going to happen overnight and the rising gas costs put quite a hurt on the pockets of the middle and lower class.

I heard an interesting argument today however against drilling right now, the first of it's kind for me. This is from someone who is very involved in stock trading/commodities etc. He claims that much of the oil from the Middle East is very crude and practically unusable. He compared it to trying to squeeze that last little bit out of the tube of toothpaste. The claim is that soon the Middle East will be out of usable oil and then we'll be able to start tapping back into our resources and have the upper hand. Not sure if I buy it since I've done zero research into it, but it gave me something to think about.

Gator
06-14-2008, 01:03 AM
I don't really think drilling for more oil is the answer to this problem. We have to find long term solutions to our energy needs, not just keep extending our dependence on foreign oil.

If we open up ANWR, we would depend on OPEC a lot less. But we could also open up a few spots in the Gulf and on the coast of California. China and Cuba are setting up a platform 60 miles off of Florida. Why shouldn't we? I bet we're a lot cleaner and efficient than the ChiComms. And California is in a huge budget crunch - they could cash in on big revenues if they let a few ocean platforms get set up. We're not talking about lining the coasts with derricks. Just set up enough so that the next hurricane doesn't send gas to $10/gallon.

Ian
06-14-2008, 07:42 AM
I don't like the reasoning behind not wanting oil to drop again... I think at this point everyone realizes we need to find another option but lets be honest with ourselves, it's not going to happen overnight and the rising gas costs put quite a hurt on the pockets of the middle and lower class.Spoken like only someone who hasn't lived through this before can ...

Trust me. We did this already. It was called "The 70's."

And eventually supply and demand evened out and prices came down. And Americans traded in their little Hondas and Mavericks and Pintos and all went out and bought SUV's.

I'm afraid I don't have the same faith in mankind that you do, Mary Ann.

Hull-onian
06-16-2008, 06:59 PM
Spoken like only someone who hasn't lived through this before can ...

Trust me. We did this already. It was called "The 70's."

And eventually supply and demand evened out and prices came down. And Americans traded in their little Hondas and Mavericks and Pintos and all went out and bought SUV's.

I'm afraid I don't have the same faith in mankind that you do, Mary Ann.

I remember going to the gas station in the '70's and having to get in line wait to get my gas. It was very frustrating then. So far, I haven't noticed people changing their driving habits as yet. We stay home at least one week day. We walk to the post office and local grocery store. Anything to save.:D