Anybody else worried about economy?

[tink2006]

It seems that things just keep getting worse :( I know that the media, at times, can portray more doom and gloom than necessary but it seems that there is no relief in sight. Gas prices are ridiculously high and now food etc seem to be going up as well :( The other day I actually thought of cancelling our July trip to WDW just in case things get really bad. I would hate to spend the money on a vacation only to find out that we need the money later. My DH said not to worry :)

What do you think about the economy?

[BelleLovesTheBeast]

I don't think it's going to get better soon. The gas prices here have been going up several cents every week and they are saying it should hit $4 by the summer. Farmers are starting to grow less wheat and more corn which will drive up the price of the wheat products. I recently hear that Feb was a bad month for the retail companies because of this. People aren't spending money and it was much worse than they expected.

However even with all of this....still go....have fun.

If you are worried I'd just cut back on non-necessities. That's what we have done. And don't forget about the tax refund that is coming.

[kaerbear178]

I'm in the building industry right now. The company I work for is REALLY slow right now. They told us they don't want to lay anyone off but they aren't giving any raises this year. SO higher cost of living and no extra money really is hurting people, especially the warehouse guys. Most of us are happy that we are just keeping our jobs! The hard part is that if anyone quits we can't hire anyone to take their place so we have extra work added on.
My husband and I are in the process of needing to start our careers, the jobs we have now were meant to get us through school. Our school loans will be coming due in June and I don't have a clue how we are going to pay for them. Its hard to work so many years for something and then have to stuggle afterwards.

[GrumpyFan]

"the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" - Franklin D. Roosevelt

I believe this is very true. If you're job is going well, and things are fine for you, then don't worry. That's not to say you should ignore what's happening around you, but don't obsess about all the doom and gloom the media is feeding you.

[Disneyatic]

I have to admit that the state of the economy is getting a bit scary.
It's hard to know what is media driven and what is actually happening.
I read an article from a big time economist the other day and he wasn't very optimistic about the state of things.
My husband and I work for the same company and it is directly effected by gas/oil so needless to say it has been struggling lately.
We are just trying to discipline our spending (which I am not very good at :secret: )and be as strict on ourselves as possible to prepare for the worst.
We have a trip planned for December and are holding on tight to it! I want to do everything possible to NOT have to cancel!!

Good luck to everyone else!

[bleukarma]

I feel the same way you do, it’s REALLY scary!! I work in the doomed real estate business and I haven’t had a raise in two years because of the failing market. But everything else around me has gone up so I have forced myself to cut back to just the essentials. I have a second job in retail, but because less people are spending money they are cutting hours like crazy. It’s really bad!! However, I am keeping my birthday Disney trip in May…although I cut it back from a weekend at Disney to just a night. Even though I will have to work extra to pay for the hotel/tickets/food, I NEED this trip…if only for my sanity for a night!! We all need time to get away from the stress and WDW is the best place to do it! I say to keep your trip, but maybe cut back a little for your peace of mind. That way if things to get worse then you won’t beat yourself up for spending to much at WDW, but you can still look back and think “I’m glad I took that trip…I needed it now that times are tough.”

Good luck!! I think we all need a support group for this stressful time!!! Haha!! :mickey:

[murphy1]

When I was 23 I took a long weekend trip from Tampa to visit a friend in Naples, Fl. The next Monday, I was laid off my job. The trip was the best, I wouldn't have done it if I was laid off prior, but it was back around 1990 when the economy was as bad. Some things are out of your control. We know things are probably going to get worse here before they get better. I don't have a job right now, my dh is the sole provider in the now-shaky field of engineering. I know it's hard nowadays, but you have to have fun, too!

[IloveDisney71]

I'm a teacher so thankfully after 13 years I've got job security! BUT I'm really feeling the "hit" in my gas bill and grocery bill! Last year I downsized from an SUV to a small car but the gas is still high! Yesterday the gas hit $3.26 at my corner gas station. I don't get it!?!
My husband said we are going to have to start clipping coupons or something and I haven't done that in years. We are also trying to plan a trip this summer (not sure where) but we don't know how much we should spend on a trip. :(

[LauraF]

It's scary but I think we'll all get through this period (though some of us may be a bit worse for wear!)

I'm planning on buying my first house and I sometimes sit up nights wondering how I can do it. I have the money to make payments with plenty left over each month, but I worry it could be tight as I expect to have to buy a new car within the first few years of my mortgage. (Right now the current one is almost paid for, but since I drive 30K+ miles a year, the car won't last for 10 more years.)

I worry a great deal about gas prices. As it is I fill up every 2.5 days on average and I nearly spend more on gas than I do on my car payment! Even if I were buy a hybrid car, the increased purchase cost would pretty much kill any gas savings I might realize unless prices start dropping.

But I also know I can't put my life on hold. Yes, I do cut back on things - currently trying to eat out less, though the last thing I want to do is cook on the evenings after work. But instead of taking a long vacation and flying, we're doing a driving vacation and staying at B&Bs. I'm not going to cancel vacation unless ends stop meeting. (May they continue to meet! :mickey: )

[Tinkerfreak]

I am now paying 3.34 for a gallon of gas. We are Building a new house and it won't be done until the end of June. Right now we are paying 2 electric bills, 2 phone bills and heating 2 houses. Talk about straining your budget. I stay home and do bookeeping for our construction business so I don't collect a wage. My Dad had a stroke before Christmas and is paralized on his right side and can't speak. They are sending him home next Thursday because medicare won't pay for more than 100 days of his care in the nursing home and my mom can't afford the $300 a day cost to keep him there. There is no way she can take care of him on her own so I will have to be there all day and my brother will be there at night.
I am so anxious to get into our new house and sell the old one. So far the economy hasn't had an impact on our customers, they are mostly millionaires from out of state remodeling homes on the coast that Mainers can no longer afford taxes on so they have had to sell.
We are hoping to keep our plans for our trip in November. I have cut back on splurges like Starbucks, eating out etc. We have made our girls cut back also because we feel they need to learn that sometimes you need to tighten your belt. Now they don't always get that pack of gum or tick tacs they want and we don't buy them clothes just because they want them, they have to need them.
I'm not trying to start a political war so please don't take it that way but I just wish our president would just admit that we are in a recession. Denying it won't make it not true or make it go away. If you don't face a problem you can't fix it.

[DisneyDog]

My DH was recently laid off, but thankfull he found a new job within a few weeks. He started at his new job today. He's working in the city, so he'll take the train so he doesn't have to pay for gas and parking.

I was just at the mall yesterday (one of the largest malls in the country) and couldn't find a parking spot. Everyone was shopping and spending money. I am worried about the economy, but people are obviously not cutting back just yet.

[AuntDJ]

I too worry about this. I work in the Student Lending industry and we have had a huge hit this year. 2 of the top 10 lenders in the businees have gone under. My company is not one of those, but we are taking hits. My office is one of those hits and will be shut down as of May 2. There are branches all across the country and 4 of them are being shut.

It is no fun and really hard but they are giving us a really good severance and I am determined to keep my Disney trip in June. Luckily, I am frugal by nature so most of the trip was paid for when the announcement of lay offs was made...

I left a PM for kaerbear178; however, most student lending companies want to help you make these payments. If you are choosing between a house payment or even a Disney trip and you student loan payment, call your lender. There are some types of forbearances that you don't even have to tell us why you can't make your payment....

Good Luck to ALL of us!

DJ

[Mrs. Bee]

One good thing for us right now is that they keep lowering the interest rates. Perfect timing for us because we're building a house. We can lock in our interest rate 60 days before our close date. Keeping our fingers crossed that the rates stay low for a while. On the downside, it seems like as the interest rates lower (yay!) my mutual funds are dropping (boo!) So everything that's going on right now is effecting us in good and bad ways. I try my best to focus on the good.

[Ian]

"the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" - Franklin D. Roosevelt

I believe this is very true. If you're job is going well, and things are fine for you, then don't worry. That's not to say you should ignore what's happening around you, but don't obsess about all the doom and gloom the media is feeding you.Exactly.

What many people don't realize is that economic slowdowns are often self-fulfilling prophecies.

People get worried about the economy, so they spend less, which in turn further slows the economy, which spurs them to spend less, which slows the economy ... etc. etc. etc.

Honestly, are there things to worry about? Yes. Do they affect the average American that much? No. If you're in the financial biz, you may feel some short-term pain. Smaller raises, bonus cutbacks, etc. But this too shall pass. All the things the Fed is doing will help and, by this time next year, most of the pain will be behind us.

But if you're in any other industry, you probably have nothing to be concerned about. Spend. Buy things. Take your vacation. You'll actually be helping to stave off recession and further economic woes.

And really ... gas prices are kind of overblown to a degree. Unless you're driving a Hummer or are on some kind of razor thin budget, it shouldn't be causing much pain.

Think about it ... gas prices are like a buck a gallon higher than normal. So if you drive a car that gets like 20mpg (kinda low) and you have an average commute, you probably fill up maybe 4 or 5 times a month. If you have a 20 gallon tank it's maybe an extra $80 or $100 a month.

[Mrs. Bee]

Exactly.

What many people don't realize is that economic slowdowns are often self-fulfilling prophecies.

People get worried about the economy, so they spend less, which in turn further slows the economy, which spurs them to spend less, which slows the economy ... etc. etc. etc.

Honestly, are there things to worry about? Yes. Do they affect the average American that much? No. If you're in the financial biz, you may feel some short-term pain. Smaller raises, bonus cutbacks, etc. But this too shall pass. All the things the Fed is doing will help and, by this time next year, most of the pain will be behind us.

But if you're in any other industry, you probably have nothing to be concerned about. Spend. Buy things. Take your vacation. You'll actually be helping to stave off recession and further economic woes.

And really ... gas prices are kind of overblown to a degree. Unless you're driving a Hummer or are on some kind of razor thin budget, it shouldn't be causing much pain.

Think about it ... gas prices are like a buck a gallon higher than normal. So if you drive a car that gets like 20mpg (kinda low) and you have an average commute, you probably fill up maybe 4 or 5 times a month. If you have a 20 gallon tank it's maybe an extra $80 or $100 a month.

i wouldn't even be concerned at all about my mutual funds if i weren't going to be selling off some stuff in the coming months. eek.

i don't worry about gas prices. mainly because we don't drive much at all. i'm a housewife and my husband works from home. i fill up my car once, maybe twice a month and it's only about $30 each time (tops...sometimes it's a bit less.) My husbands car costs more to fill up but we use his car even less than we use mine.

And I agree. People need to go out and spend money. It's a good way to help the economy. I think a lot of people don't realize that by stopping their spending, they are only contributing to the problem. I'm not saying people should go out and spend money they don't have or that they should spend more than they normally wouldn't. I just think people need to continue spending the way they normally would.

[Quest4fun]

People get worried about the economy, so they spend less, which in turn further slows the economy, which spurs them to spend less, which slows the economy ... etc. etc. etc.

Ian is spot on.

We live in a consumer driven economy. If we stop consuming we slow our economy. Don't expect another depression. The big problem with the original stock market crash was that it didn't involve the same global market that existed today. We did most of our business among ourselves and much like today we spent more than we had but it was the joblessness and the run on the banks that brought about the depression. There were no crops to tend and people were not purchasing manufactured goods. Because of this people stopped consuming and, eek, the government, which ultimately sustains everything we depend on, was not collecting taxes to pay for schools, roads, law enforcement, etc.

If you really want to help out there are a few things you can do. Stop spending is NOT one of them.

You can spend smarter and keep debt to a lull. Just make sure you continue to spend. Take that trip, buy that car, and upgrade the stuff you own as long as you can do it with your own money or if you're able to pay off the debt that ensues.

It's not the end of the world. Keep money circulating. Your money belongs in a bank or invested properly in a house.

[SteveL]

I'm not saying people should go out and spend money they don't have

Heck, nobody does that better than the government.
But what really gets me are the politicians that then stand up and say they are "fiscal conservatives" or they believe in "fiscal responsibility".
As John Stossel says, "Gimme a break!"

[Dakota Rose]

DH and I own our own business. Winter has been incredibly bleak for us. People just don't do home projects in the winter. Now that spring is here, we're hopeful the business will pick up again. But I don't pay much attention to the media frenzy. They're always crying "the sky is falling" and making everything worse. I suppose we had so many years with a booming economy that we're due for a recession. I wish we could avoid it but it seems unavoidable.

[Quest4fun]

Heck, nobody does that better than the government.
But what really gets me are the politicians that then stand up and say they are "fiscal conservatives" or they believe in "fiscal responsibility".
As John Stossel says, "Gimme a break!"

It really doesn't matter who we vote for. Politicians get paid whether they win or lose. They certainly don't depend on their government paychecks and instead pay for their goodies with all of the sponsorship deals they get. I think any politician recieving external funding doesn't need a paycheck that we sign.

It all reminds me of that movie Idiocracy. Everything is driven by products like Brawndo Costco, and Carl's Jr. It's really good if you like satire. It's Mike Judge so don't expect to be blown away because it's not an Oscar contender.

[Jimenyfan]

Exactly.

What many people don't realize is that economic slowdowns are often self-fulfilling prophecies.

People get worried about the economy, so they spend less, which in turn further slows the economy, which spurs them to spend less, which slows the economy ... etc. etc. etc.

Honestly, are there things to worry about? Yes. Do they affect the average American that much? No. If you're in the financial biz, you may feel some short-term pain. Smaller raises, bonus cutbacks, etc. But this too shall pass. All the things the Fed is doing will help and, by this time next year, most of the pain will be behind us.

But if you're in any other industry, you probably have nothing to be concerned about. Spend. Buy things. Take your vacation. You'll actually be helping to stave off recession and further economic woes.

And really ... gas prices are kind of overblown to a degree. Unless you're driving a Hummer or are on some kind of razor thin budget, it shouldn't be causing much pain.

Think about it ... gas prices are like a buck a gallon higher than normal. So if you drive a car that gets like 20mpg (kinda low) and you have an average commute, you probably fill up maybe 4 or 5 times a month. If you have a 20 gallon tank it's maybe an extra $80 or $100 a month.

Your post opened my eyes to quite a few things I hadn't thought of before,you put my mind at ease on a few things. DH is in sales and his company and the companies that he sells to are pretty solid. I work part time for a minor league baseball team I feel pretty good about their stability.

[Quest4fun]

DH and I own our own business. Winter has been incredibly bleak for us. People just don't do home projects in the winter. Now that spring is here, we're hopeful the business will pick up again. But I don't pay much attention to the media frenzy. They're always crying "the sky is falling" and making everything worse. I suppose we had so many years with a booming economy that we're due for a recession. I wish we could avoid it but it seems unavoidable.

I think people are being a little too liberal with the way they throw around the term recession. They're treating it like it's going to be a depression. Usually recession is what immediately follows prosperous years but let's be honest with ourselves. We did not experience prosperity during the housing boom. We simply inflated a market by convincing everybody they were wealthier than they really were. Now we're adjusting to the problem that nobody can borrow a million dollars against their house that simply isn't worth that much any more.

Watch for the economy to head back to a more reasonable level where everything is worth what it's actually worth and people are living within their means again. Once we're able to do so the economy will rebound like it always does and we'll be back on the brink where we belong.

The coming recession will get everybody grounded like the last recession did.

[ncscgirl2005]

Your post opened my eyes to quite a few things I hadn't thought of before,you put my mind at ease on a few things.DH is in sales and his company and the companies that he sells to are pretty solid. I work part time for a minor league baseball team I feel pretty good about their stability.

Yeah, Ian usually has that effect on me too. (LOL!)
:thumbsup:

[BrerGnat]

Watch for the economy to head back to a more reasonable level where everything is worth what it's actually worth and people are living within their means again. Once we're able to do so the economy will rebound like it always does and we'll be back on the brink where we belong.

The coming recession will get everybody grounded like the last recession did.

This is EXACTLY my stance on this. I think we NEED a recession. Things (everything, from houses to retail goods to food, gas, etc.) has gone WAY over what it's "worth", simply due to an unrealistic idea of our financial status. People began living way above their means, driving up the housing market, which in turn, makes prices rise on everything around.

It's time to get back to a better baseline. It's ridiculous what "they" say the houses in my neighborhood are worth...I just can't wrap my brain around it.

Things need to get back to a more realistic norm.

[caryrae]

For some of us it's hard to spend money when most of it goes to basic needs/bills and the extra money from rising gas prices can be a big deal. I am sure the gas prices will just keep going up for a while. So that extra $80-$100 extra a month could go to an extra $160-$200 a month if gas up another buck.

Then what about the extra cost from like groceries ect that rise because of gas you need to add to the extra money you need spend every month. It may seem small seperately but together it adds up fast.

[BelleLovesTheBeast]

The problem with a recession is more people out of work....government must then pay them to be unemployed.

This makes a big impact on people who own their own business and a lot of service industries. I know that the company I used to work for has been doing so poorly over the past year that they are having to close their kids and mens stores.

[Mrs. Bee]

This is EXACTLY my stance on this. I think we NEED a recession. Things (everything, from houses to retail goods to food, gas, etc.) has gone WAY over what it's "worth", simply due to an unrealistic idea of our financial status. People began living way above their means, driving up the housing market, which in turn, makes prices rise on everything around.

It's time to get back to a better baseline. It's ridiculous what "they" say the houses in my neighborhood are worth...I just can't wrap my brain around it.

Things need to get back to a more realistic norm.

I see you live in socal. House prices there are just insane! While we were living there (renting an insanely expensive apartment) my mother-in-law was trying to convince us to get a house. "It's only $450,000" she'd say. We'd ask how big it was. "Almost 500 square feet." UM...not thanks!

Needless to say, we love the midwest...haha. Our house is over 3000 finished square feet and under 200k. :D

[BrerGnat]

I see you live in socal. House prices there are just insane! While we were living there (renting an insanely expensive apartment) my mother-in-law was trying to convince us to get a house. "It's only $450,000" she'd say. We'd ask how big it was. "Almost 500 square feet." UM...not thanks!

Needless to say, we love the midwest...haha. Our house is over 3000 finished square feet and under 200k. :D

Not just So Cal...Irvine. It's truly a wonderful city...it *sort of* deserves the high price tag that the houses have, because it's SUCH an awesome place to live. We consider ourselves very fortunate that we are able to be here right now. DH is military, so we get a housing allowance that covers our (also insanely expensive) rent. The new single family/detached houses they are building near me START at $800,000...for like 1,500 sq feet...NOT!!!!

While the housing prices in the midwest are attractive, that's about all that is attractive to DH and I. He has had to spend a LOT of time (i.e. over a year) training in Oklahoma, and he wouldn't live anywhere in the midwest even if his life depended on it...he hates it that much (he has this thing with needing to live near an ocean). Looks like it will be a LONG time until we can afford to buy a home...

[Mrs. Bee]

Not just So Cal...Irvine. It's truly a wonderful city...it *sort of* deserves the high price tag that the houses have, because it's SUCH an awesome place to live. We consider ourselves very fortunate that we are able to be here right now. DH is military, so we get a housing allowance that covers our (also insanely expensive) rent. The new single family/detached houses they are building near me START at $800,000...for like 1,500 sq feet...NOT!!!!

While the housing prices in the midwest are attractive, that's about all that is attractive to DH and I. He has had to spend a LOT of time (i.e. over a year) training in Oklahoma, and he wouldn't live anywhere in the midwest even if his life depended on it...he hates it that much (he has this thing with needing to live near an ocean). Looks like it will be a LONG time until we can afford to buy a home...

The way your husband feels about the midwest(although I don't really consider oklahoma the midwest) is basically the way I feel about southern california. I lived there for a year and a half. That was definitely long enough! EEK! Not my kind of place at all. The only thing it had going for it was Disneyland. And it's the only thing I miss. I'm happy to be back in Iowa, near my family. And in a place that has actual seasons. I missed Fall and Winter soooo much! Haha. I'm a season junkie! And an affordable house makes it even greater! I know the midwest isn't for everyone, and that's cool. Southern California isn't for everyone either....haha. I'm pretty sure a lot of my in-laws think I'm insane for not liking the weather in orange county. To each his own. I think some people have a warped idea about their area though. I met a lot of people that seriously believed that EVERYONE loves Southern California. And that's a bit bizarre to me. I'm not delusional...just because I think a place is great doesn't mean everyone else does...haha.

Okay...I'm totally off topic now. Sorry. :)

[Quest4fun]

Not just So Cal...Irvine. It's truly a wonderful city...it *sort of* deserves the high price tag that the houses have, because it's SUCH an awesome place to live. We consider ourselves very fortunate that we are able to be here right now. DH is military, so we get a housing allowance that covers our (also insanely expensive) rent. The new single family/detached houses they are building near me START at $800,000...for like 1,500 sq feet...NOT!!!!

While the housing prices in the midwest are attractive, that's about all that is attractive to DH and I. He has had to spend a LOT of time (i.e. over a year) training in Oklahoma, and he wouldn't live anywhere in the midwest even if his life depended on it...he hates it that much (he has this thing with needing to live near an ocean). Looks like it will be a LONG time until we can afford to buy a home...

Don't I know it. My office is based in Irvine and I thank my lucky stars every day I don't have to commute to that office from my abnoxiously expensive apartment. My parents still don't understand why I wouldn't want to live where I grew up. I just don't like it there. It's way too hot. I need the break from warm weather that we get out here thanks to actual Winters.

Oklahoma isn't where I'd want to live either. I'm very happy being up north in the Midwest away from the heat they get down there. My wife and I love the Omaha area and wouldn't dream of moving back to Orange County where we could never buy a home. I just couldn't think of any good reasons to continue living there. I have everything I need here that I could get when I lived in Orange.

I don't have Disneyland nearby which breaks my heart but that's about it. I never really went to the beach and we have lakes up the wahzoo here. If I ever get the hankering to hit up a club or just go out on the town I have almost identical night life options in downtown Omaha without the attitude of LA. It's fantastic. I recommend people visit. Just don't stay.

I'm sorry if anybody lives in Oklahoma. Everybody has their reasons for living where they do. I don't think it's right to invalidate them. It's a fantastic country and there is something for everybody. I still think people should test the waters in other areas. Visit New York, the Northeast, the desert, the South, Northern and Southern Californias, the Pacific Northwest, and of course the Midwest. You may want to skip Wyoming. I've heard there isn't anything to see up there that you can see in photos. Just get out there and make sure you know what else is out there.

(I'm kidding about Wyoming of course. :D)

[Ian]

Not just So Cal...Irvine. It's truly a wonderful city...I was just in Irvine last week, Nat, and I'd have to agree.

Spent quite a bit of time at the Irvine Spectrum ... ate at Javier's ... best Mexican food I've ever had!

And did my part for the economy while I was there, I might add. That meal was expensive!!! ;)

[LauraF]

I see you live in socal. House prices there are just insane! While we were living there (renting an insanely expensive apartment) my mother-in-law was trying to convince us to get a house. "It's only $450,000" she'd say. We'd ask how big it was. "Almost 500 square feet." UM...not thanks!

Needless to say, we love the midwest...haha. Our house is over 3000 finished square feet and under 200k. :D
I'm hoping house prices will keep adjusting to mroe realistic levels. I feel for those who have a lot invested in loans on their equity, but those of us who don't have houses really want to get into them! Finally house prices in Boston are adjusting to almost affordable levels. :D

[JanetMegan]

Well I read through everything here and have a few things to say (as usual...)

I'm in a sort of odd position here because up until January I was contently employed for 10 years at the same small company with a good salary (esp for my age), decent benefits, putting lots of money in my 401K etc. I have always been a big saver. I don't vacation when I don't have the money, I don't eat out hardly at all, I buy clothes at Goodwill by choice and I clip coupons. I always have. Thank goodness.

Fast forward to Jan 2008, I'm now a small business owner (well 50%). I haven't seen a paycheck since middle of the Dec. 2007. I can afford to pay my employees and afford to pay my business bills and my house bills because I saved well in advance. In general though, being in the construction industry right now is tough. Even though I'm on the commercial side of things people are not wanting to spend money on improvements to their businesses if the news media keeping plowing "recession" into their heads.

Things started to slow down at the old company around third quarter last year and I'm afraid they haven't been that much better for the new one. We got lucky right on Jan. 2nd that a few companies were saving some work for us because they knew we would have a tough time starting on our own. That work has finished up though and we have been VERY slow for the last month.

Luckily we have a good Small Business Loan to pay bills for now and help us continue to try to make this work. At this point I hope it gets better instead of worse. I know some folks are saying this $600 per person stimulus will really turn things around, but for me it's a drop in the bucket so I don't see how that is going to change the whole economy.

I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer here cause I really do feel the more negative people are the worse it will get but as someone who pays the bills, writes the paychecks, pays for our employees fuel etc. All those items add up and tacking more costs on top of an already struggling industry is like riding a sinking ship.

[Ian]

I know some folks are saying this $600 per person stimulus will really turn things around, but for me it's a drop in the bucket so I don't see how that is going to change the whole economy.I agree with pretty much everything you said, Janet ... Your position is kind of unique and you are one of the exceptions I mentioned in my post since your business is directly affected by the credit crunch.

In regards to the tax rebates ... you have to look at them in the grand scheme of things. There are what? Probably 100 million taxpayers in this country? So even if you multiply that by the minimum $600 amount (and some people are getting triple or even quadruple that much) you're talking about injecting $60 billion into our economy.

That all has a ripple effect ... it will get spent at retailers, who will then have boosted profits, which in turn will give them more money to invest in their businesses, which in turn might lead to increased spending on construction ... etc.

So it could help you, really.

[MsMin]

WE are very fortunate here to have a fairly hot economy compared to the rest of you guys. Billions were pumped into the state after Katrina with building beyond the labor and supplies to support it. We've had such a tax surplus and housing prices had a slight gain this month but our housing prices have held their own. As the fuel prices increase and the global market changes more ppl are using our ports continuing to aid in our economy so we are basically benefiting off the struggles of others. :(
I too believe that the media is scaring everyone (not without reason) but it frightens ppl who don't need to worry causing them to spend less and increasing the problems as mentioned.
The mall is making a major expansion and another mall built near by. People are spending here but unfortunately we don't have that much of an impact.
Hang in there... this too shall pass.

[Ian]

I too believe that the media is scaring everyone (not without reason) but it frightens ppl who don't need to worry causing them to spend less and increasing the problems as mentioned.This is absolutely correct. People are, by and large, unsophisticated about financial markets. When they see stories about pending recessions or credit worries or whatever, they panic. They think it's somehow going to affect them, so they contract spending, which further exacerbates the problem, and it goes into the downward spiral I mentioned earlier.

The bottom line is that unemployment in this country is still right around 5%, which means that 95% of the country is working and really have very little to be concerned about.

Again, if you're working in the real estate, mortgage, banking, construction, etc. arena then yeah ... you may need to be concerned (short-term). But the balance of the workforce is fine and will probably continue to be.

[pogo]

There are some things you can do to help yourself and things to take advantage of during this slowdown. We've been preparing for this for two years now.

Two years ago we traded a 2002 Bonneville for a 2006 Hyundai Elantra. We went from 24 MPG to 35 MPG. Our car payment dropped $125 per month and our gas bill dropped significantly.

This year we traded a 2002 Eddie Bauer Explorer for a 2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited. We went from 20 MPG to 26 MPG. Once again saving on our gas bill.

We are in the middle of a refinance on our home. Consolidating our first and second mortgage for 16 years to a 15 year FHA. Our payment will only drop about $30 per month, but we are saving one years worth of payments and went from 5.85 % to 4.5% = about $16,000 saved total.

As you can see, you can take advantage of an economic slowdown. And no, Ian didn't pay me to tell you all this. :D

[BrerGnat]

Southern California isn't for everyone either....haha. I'm pretty sure a lot of my in-laws think I'm insane for not liking the weather in orange county. To each his own. I think some people have a warped idea about their area though. I met a lot of people that seriously believed that EVERYONE loves Southern California. And that's a bit bizarre to me. I'm not delusional...just because I think a place is great doesn't mean everyone else does...haha.

)

Oh, I think you misunderstood me as well. I DON'T like "southern California"...I like IRVINE, CA!!! There is a big difference! I *hate* the whole "OC" mentality, I HATE (with a passion) Los Angeles, I hate the traffic situation, and I generally hate living in California in general (don't like the politics of this state). However, Irvine is like a little oasis here. It's a very innovative master planned city. The school system here is fabulous (which says a lot, since CA schools are not known for their greatness). Everything is nicely landscaped and well maintained, there are gogeous parks everywhere, the shopping/dining opportunities are endless and I have everything I could ever need within a 15 mile radius. Seriously, I hardly ever leave Irvine, because I have everything right here (except Disneyland, but that's right up the freeway from me). Many people don't like that sort of thing (this place is NOT "small town"...and it reeks of being run by "the man", but that "man" has $$$$, so things are very, very nice here), but it truly sort of seems like what Walt was envisioning when he conceived of E.P.C.O.T. A place for people to work, play and live in harmony (in fact, Irvine's motto is "Work, Live, Play"), with all the conveniences of a big city in a friendly town where people are generally happy to live.

I grew up in NJ, and I miss the seasons too, but not that much. There is a lot to be said for being able to enjoy the outdoors year round.

Ok, back on topic. :D

[Quest4fun]

There are some things you can do to help yourself and things to take advantage of during this slowdown. We've been preparing for this for two years now.

Two years ago we traded a 2002 Bonneville for a 2006 Hyundai Elantra. We went from 24 MPG to 35 MPG. Our car payment dropped $125 per month and our gas bill dropped significantly.

This year we traded a 2002 Eddie Bauer Explorer for a 2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited. We went from 20 MPG to 26 MPG. Once again saving on our gas bill.

We are in the middle of a refinance on our home. Consolidating our first and second mortgage for 16 years to a 15 year FHA. Our payment will only drop about $30 per month, but we are saving one years worth of payments and went from 5.85 % to 4.5% = about $16,000 saved total.

As you can see, you can take advantage of an economic slowdown. And no, Ian didn't pay me to tell you all this. :D

It makes me happy to see that people are still fiscally responsible. There are ways to ride the wave and standing in front of it staring is not the way to do it. You keep out in front of it and take advantage of the fact that you're smarter that it.

I'm not pointing fingers at anybody on this thread when I say I think more people should take steps like you're doing. I'll bet those two Hyndai's are either paid for or carry a miniscule monthly payment. I think a lot of people may not be willing to give up some of what they percieve to be fancier items to save here and there.

I'll follow Pogo's lead and throw out some more suggestions. Many people have their money tied up in bills and while it's good to have them it can put a strain on the pocket book. Rather than giving up the occasional movie or trip to the zoo or whatever you can thin out your monthly expenses so you can put more money in the bank which ultimately helps the environment.

1. Check your monthly expenses. How much are you paying for creature comforts? Are you spending extra for movie channels or sports packages with your cable/dish plan? Can you manage a less expensive cell plan? Do you need that land line telephone? Streamlining these can put a good $50 a month back in your pocket. Before you start working on that response read further.

2. How much do your cars set you back? Think before you purchase that new car. Look at some of the other vehicles being sold. Every single manufacturer has a solid vehicle in their lineup. Ignore the badge, look at price and features. You want something with good mileage and low maintenance costs. This doesn't mean econobox anymore. You could be saving at least $100 a month by doing like Pogo and getting a reliable import.

3. Learn to shop at Kohl's, Old Navy, etc. Buy when stuff is on sale at less expensive retailers. You don't have to stop shopping to save money. Nobody can see the label of what you're wearing. That Louis Vitton bag you're carrying is only impressive to you.

4. Give up smoking. It's a disgusting and expensive habit. That pack a day you're buying is enough to pay for cell phone service for a family of 4.

Theses are just some small things you can do at home that will allow to still get a cup of coffee at Starbucks, go out to eat at a nice restaurant, or see a movie every now and then. You can also put that money in the bank or into mutual funds or whatever. Money that can be spent or saved helps the economy. You can live comfortably and still contribute.

My 1.5 cents. I'm saving there too!
:thumbsup:

[Mrs. Bee]

Oh, I think you misunderstood me as well. I DON'T like "southern California"...I like IRVINE, CA!!! There is a big difference! I *hate* the whole "OC" mentality, I HATE (with a passion) Los Angeles, I hate the traffic situation, and I generally hate living in California in general (don't like the politics of this state). However, Irvine is like a little oasis here. It's a very innovative master planned city. The school system here is fabulous (which says a lot, since CA schools are not known for their greatness). Everything is nicely landscaped and well maintained, there are gogeous parks everywhere, the shopping/dining opportunities are endless and I have everything I could ever need within a 15 mile radius. Seriously, I hardly ever leave Irvine, because I have everything right here (except Disneyland, but that's right up the freeway from me). Many people don't like that sort of thing (this place is NOT "small town"...and it reeks of being run by "the man", but that "man" has $$$$, so things are very, very nice here), but it truly sort of seems like what Walt was envisioning when he conceived of E.P.C.O.T. A place for people to work, play and live in harmony (in fact, Irvine's motto is "Work, Live, Play"), with all the conveniences of a big city in a friendly town where people are generally happy to live.

I grew up in NJ, and I miss the seasons too, but not that much. There is a lot to be said for being able to enjoy the outdoors year round.

Ok, back on topic. :D

I never spent much time in Irvine. I think the Sams Club I went to was in Irvine. And the hubby's job was there. I was in Orange. I did enjoy the Old Town Orange area though.

Where we live now...everything we need is also within a 15 mile radius. What's funny is that so many people (I'm not saying you are one of them) think that living in the midwest means living in a tiny town where you have to drive an hour to do anything. (Yes, there are places like that...I went to college in a town like that.) But the Omaha area has everything we'd ever need. Really the only time we leave the area is to visit some family members that live in nearby states. The only things we don't have here that we had in Orange are Disneyland (which we miss) and the Ocean (which we never went to anyway.) So things are working out really well for us. I always laugh when I hear the things people say about Omaha. People are clueless and it's just funny. When people found out we were moving...a lot of them asked the weirdest things. I think they thought Omaha was a big cornfield. It's really sad actually. A lot of the southern californians that I met really have no concept of anywhere other than southern california. When they aired the American Idol Omaha auditions, the first they they show while they are mentioning Omaha...are cornfields. Seriously?? Haha. So lame. They did show buildings too so that was good. It just makes me laugh.

Okay...I'm seriously babbling now.

[Quest4fun]

When they aired the American Idol Omaha auditions, the first they they show while they are mentioning Omaha...are cornfields. Seriously?? Haha. So lame. They did show buildings too so that was good. It just makes me laugh.

That was pretty funny. You'd swear Omaha was an open field that had a sports arena in the middle of it from the way they shot it.

I was among the ignorant before I made my first trip there. I used to be among the masses that thought there were just six large cities in the United States, LA, NY, Seattle, Chicago, Dallas, and San Francisco, and everything else was a couple of houses and a farm.

Omaha is rad.

Back on topic, there is going to be a gigantic interest rate cut today. It just needs to sit there for a month so we can save some money on our mortgage.

[sorarail]

I'm a bankruptcy paralegal. Business is really picking up. Enough said!

[JanetMegan]

I will say that for people like myself with a "governement loan" (SBA loan) it helps when they lower these rates like this...not tons but a little.

[Quest4fun]

I'm a bankruptcy paralegal. Business is really picking up. Enough said!

So what's the bulk of your business? Is it the poor subprime borrowers or just people who don't know how to manage their debt?

[sorarail]

So what's the bulk of your business? Is it the poor subprime borrowers or just people who don't know how to manage their debt?

The folks we are currently seeing, for the most part, fall into one (or more) of three categories:
1) They have been hit by the subprime, no-doc loan interest increases;
2) They are uninsured folks who are faced with huge medical bills they can't begin to pay; or
3) They are small business owners, who, due to the slowing of their businesses, can't make ends meet and don't have enough cash on hand to ride out the downturn.

[Quest4fun]

The folks we are currently seeing, for the most part, fall into one (or more) of three categories:
1) They have been hit by the subprime, no-doc loan interest increases;
2) They are uninsured folks who are faced with huge medical bills they can't begin to pay; or
3) They are small business owners, who, due to the slowing of their businesses, can't make ends meet and don't have enough cash on hand to ride out the downturn.

I see a lot of people saying "hit by the subprime..." and I have to ask the burning question. What were they hit with? It almost sounds like they were ambushed by their loan and were powerless against it as they were pummeled into submission.

It's unfortunate that people get tricked into this stuff.

[sorarail]

I see a lot of people saying "hit by the subprime..." and I have to ask the burning question. What were they hit with? It almost sounds like they were ambushed by their loan and were powerless against it as they were pummeled into submission.

It's unfortunate that people get tricked into this stuff.

Housing prices here have gone through the roof and a lot of apartments were turned into condos to fill the gap for those folks who wanted to buy, but couldn't afford a house. The no doc loans made it possible for many people to finally buy a "home." (We've filed for a several single, professional women - nurses and teachers, primarily) They start off being able to afford their payments, but once the adjustable rates start going up (as often as every 6 months), it doesn't take long for the payment to become too high. In some cases, aggressive mortgage lenders were to blame, in others, buyers just didn't bother to read the fine print at closing or never bothered running the numbers.
"Let the buyer beware" - words to live by.

[Mrs. Bee]

Are adjustible rate loans ever a good idea?? I don't really know a lot about it. But I don't get why people would get one at all. Is there a good reason to have an adjustable rate? I thought fixed was the best way to go.

[Scar]

And of course most (not all, but most) subprime customers have no business buying a house they can't afford in the first place.

{ETA} Although now thinking about it, I suppose nobody should buy a house they can't afford.


I think we NEED a recession.And I'll even go further and even say that a recession is GOOD once in awhile.

To answer the origianl question, I am not in the least bit worried.

[Ian]

The folks we are currently seeing, for the most part, fall into one (or more) of three categories:
1) They have been hit by the subprime, no-doc loan interest increases;
2) They are uninsured folks who are faced with huge medical bills they can't begin to pay; or
3) They are small business owners, who, due to the slowing of their businesses, can't make ends meet and don't have enough cash on hand to ride out the downturn.I would say really only #3 on that list is a legitimate factor of a slowing economy. The other two examples are people who simply aren't properly prepared financially.


Are adjustible rate loans ever a good idea?? I don't really know a lot about it. But I don't get why people would get one at all. Is there a good reason to have an adjustable rate?Yes. I work for a mortgage company, so I can speak with some authority on this point ...

Adjustable rate mortgages are absolutely fine, as long as you understand what you're getting in to. They generally provide borrrowers with a lower upfront interest rate in return for the borrower accepting the additional risk of the adjustable rate.

So they're great, for example, for folks looking at a short-term occupancy in their property, folks who are trying to buy a little more than they can afford now with the expectation that their incomes will rise over time to keep pace with the possible payment increases, folks buying investment properties looking to keep payments low ...

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with being an informed consumer of an ARM.

[Mrs. Bee]

I would say really only #3 on that list is a legitimate factor of a slowing economy. The other two examples are people who simply aren't properly prepared financially.

Yes. I work for a mortgage company, so I can speak with some authority on this point ...

Adjustable rate mortgages are absolutely fine, as long as you understand what you're getting in to. They generally provide borrrowers with a lower upfront interest rate in return for the borrower accepting the additional risk of the adjustable rate.

So they're great, for example, for folks looking at a short-term occupancy in their property, folks who are trying to buy a little more than they can afford now with the expectation that their incomes will rise over time to keep pace with the possible payment increases, folks buying investment properties looking to keep payments low ...

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with being an informed consumer of an ARM.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I think we are perfect candidates for the 30-year fixed though...haha. Very interesting to see how the adjustible works. But we never even really considered that as an option.

[snifflesmcg]

I don't whether you think the news stations are trying to scare you or not but the numbers speak for themselves. I am an avid coupon cutter/shopper and I know virtually every price of things in the groccery store. Last week I bought bananas for 69 cents a pound. I know that doesn't seem like alot but considering last year I could get them for 3 lbs/$1, that is a considerable difference. My BF saw them for 79 cents a pound in a different store.

I am worried about the economy. I do have friends on a "razor thin" budget and this is killing them. They are the average family, married couple, 2 kids, mortgage, average income.

I don't see it getting better anytime soon.

[Hammer]

The folks we are currently seeing, for the most part, fall into one (or more) of three categories:
1) They have been hit by the subprime, no-doc loan interest increases;
2) They are uninsured folks who are faced with huge medical bills they can't begin to pay; or
3) They are small business owners, who, due to the slowing of their businesses, can't make ends meet and don't have enough cash on hand to ride out the downturn.


I would say really only #3 on that list is a legitimate factor of a slowing economy. The other two examples are people who simply aren't properly prepared financially.


I think her second point is pretty legitimate as well and those are not just people "who simply aren't properly prepared financially" as you put it. Many of the uninsured are employed, but work for small businesses which do not provide insurance for their workers, much less for their families. I like to use hair salons as an example. Most salons do not provide health insurance to their employees (at least the ones I patron do not). Ian, you and I are fortunate that we work/have worked in industries where companies provide health insurance. Many are not so lucky and can only put so much away in case of illness, especially the money needed to fight a disease like cancer.

Regarding if am I worried about the economy, to a certain extent I am, but I tend to expect the sky to fall at any moment anyway :scared:. So in that respect, I've always tried to save money wherever I can. I use coupons, buy the majority of my clothes off sale and clearance racks, etc. As a person that one of my degrees is in economics, I realize recessions are necessary, but what needs to be controlled is the depth and length of the recession.

[murphy1]

I just want to win the lottery :D Seriously though, I had trouble during the last recession, it's really a tough time when the economy is not great and you depend on others, even if it isn't a true "recession". Delta here in Atlanta is forcing more "retirements" or whatever they call that now and you will see a result of less service at higher prices. You expect that if you do well in school, work hard that things will go well, doesn't happen like that anymore. I am extremely lucky to have great health insurance, but my life depends on it, if I didn't have it, I could have serious problems and that really scares the heck out of me, but upsets me that I do have it and others don't.

[BrerGnat]

On the plus side, though, recessions tend to LOWER prices of goods/services. That's good for everyone. Those who need it, and those who benefit from it and thus are able to further stimulate the economy by spending more. Although times have changed, and so has the consumer, the "supply vs. demand" still holds true. If you are charging too much for something, eventually, it will become out of reach to the majority, and supply will increase. To get the supply back down to a manageable level, the prices will have to drop. You'll see this (eventually) with everything that is going up now: food, airfares, retail goods, travel, etc.

I, for one, stand to benefit from a recession. With a husband in the military, we have a guaranteed income and health insurance. I don't have to worry about him getting a pay cut or losing his job. Because of this, I am looking forward to the prices of things going down some. I will be sure to do my part to stimulate the economy too...we're planning on buying a car next year as well as going to WDW and spending a LOT of money there. ;)

I hope the best for all those who will be negatively affected, but recessions come and go, and I think this time, it will sort of serve as a "slap on the wrist", if you will. Perhaps people will dig their heads out of the sand and start living WITHIN their means, for once. It's something we need to get back to.

[Hammer]

On the plus side, though, recessions tend to LOWER prices of goods/services. That's good for everyone. Those who need it, and those who benefit from it and thus are able to further stimulate the economy by spending more. Although times have changed, and so has the consumer, the "supply vs. demand" still holds true. If you are charging too much for something, eventually, it will become out of reach to the majority, and supply will increase. To get the supply back down to a manageable level, the prices will have to drop. You'll see this (eventually) with everything that is going up now: food, airfares, retail goods, travel, etc.


The one problem which could prevent supply and demand economics from correcting a recession is external forces which prevent the laws of supply and demand to take effect. If OPEC won't consider reducing the cost of a barrel of oil, and so far they have no desire in helping the US, then gas prices will remain high, thus keep the prices of goods high as gas is essential for the transport of goods.

[BrerGnat]

The one problem which could prevent supply and demand economics from correcting a recession is external forces which prevent the laws of supply and demand to take effect. If OPEC won't consider reducing the cost of a barrel of oil, and so far they have no desire in helping the US, then gas prices will remain high, thus keep the prices of goods high as gas is essential for the transport of goods.

Yeah, that's definitely true. I was thinking about that AS I was posting...forgot to put in a "except for oil prices" clause in my post. ;)

Stupid oil prices...:mad:

[Jeff G]

And of course most (not all, but most) sub prime customers have no business buying a house they can't afford in the first place.




That is a media driven response. I am a responsible mortgage banker who has been in the industry since 1993. Up until a couple years back almost all of my business was sub prime. Many of my customers were good people who had underlying factors that affected their credit (catastrophic medical bills, unexpected layoffs etc) and defiantly deserved to own homes. I have helped thousands of these customers get into homes or refinance. I did a great portion of these on ARM's that were fixed for 2-3 years. My current portfolio, which as I said is mainly sub prime, has a less than 3% foreclosure rate which is very acceptable to almost all bank standards.

Sub prime loans by nature have higher rates, by doing an ARM we could usually knock off .5 - .75% off the rate. With the rates being higher to begin with & the vast majority of my customer refinancing before the rates adjust I did a lot of ARM's. And let me say this, for those who claim they didn't know what they were signing, they signed at least 5 different papers saying they are getting a variable rate mortgage and are closed by a third party who explains this to them. They also signed forms stating they had a right to an attorney to be present in case they didn't understand the papers. They also had 2-3 years before the ARM's reset. But I do understand it's never the consumers fault.

As for rates, if I have a customer who has perfect credit come to me when rates are at 30 year lows, as they are right now, I defiantly suggest they take the fixed. A few still are insisting on ARM's because they won't be in the homes in a certain time frame and if thats the case why not get the lowest rate.

The sad thing to me is I am painted in the media as a bad guy yet the loans I closed 2 years ago are no different than the loans I closed in 1995. We had ARM's back then, we had stated income. To me the biggest change has been consumet spending. We live in a socitey of buy it now pay later and the lower the payment the better.

Who to blame?
Lenders with over aggressive programs and liberal underwriting, yes. Over zealous mortgage brokers, yes there were many.
Consumers? Of course not, it's never their fault.


Bottom line, it's a mess and will be a mess for a while. There is blame all around. The econmony is suffering because of it. Today the loans that are closing are facing the stiffest underwiting ever and should have much less in the means of delinquency, which I am very happy to see.

[Scar]

Many of my customers were good people who had underlying factors that affected their credit (catastrophic medical bills, unexpected layoffs etc) and defiantly deserved to own homes.I did not mean to imply that most of these people are not good people nor that they don’t deserve to own a home. I just meant that they should buy a house that that they can afford.

I live in a neighborhood where a small fixer upper can be had for just over $200,000. Less than a mile away in the same township are million dollar McMansions. From what I can tell, the small houses aren’t the ones up for foreclosure, it’s the big ones.

Oh, and that could quite possibly be the first time anyone has accused me of buying into the media. ;)

[Jeff G]

I live in a neighborhood where a small fixer upper can be had for just over $200,000. Less than a mile away in the same township are million dollar McMansions. From what I can tell, the small houses aren’t the ones up for foreclosure, it’s the big ones.

That is my biggest point. Over the past few years I've noticed a big change in spending habits. One of the first questions I am asked by many customers these days, regardless of credit, is how much can I afford? My response is how much can you budget for? You should see the dumb looks I get. Just because technically you can afford it doesn't mean you can. I have some customers who pay 20% of their income to their debt who struggle and then I have customers who pay 50% of their income to their debt with no probem. Both would be approved. Now imagine the person struggling at 20% buying more becasue they can. A lot did, probably over in that other neighborhood a mile away, and those are a good portion of the foreclosures today.


Oh, and that could quite possibly be the first time anyone has accused me of buying into the media. ;)

I'm glad I could be the first;). I am defensive of my industry if you can't tell.

[Mrs. Bee]

Many of my customers were good people who had underlying factors that affected their credit (catastrophic medical bills, unexpected layoffs etc) and defiantly deserved to own homes.

"defiantly deserved to own homes"...what does that mean? maybe i'm slow or something but i don't understand that phrase.

[Disney Doll]

folks who are trying to buy a little more than they can afford now with the expectation that their incomes will rise over time to keep pace with the possible payment increases,

This is the real problem I see with ARM's and our economy in general. I work in higher education and I am dumbfounded by the amount of student loans most people take out. They take the max not just what they actually need. Hello! This is not free money. It's a loan. You will have to pay it back. Everybody thinks things will be better tomorrow. By the way I work with graduate students so these are adults not 18 yr old kids. People just need to be more cautious with their spending.

[Jeff G]

"defiantly deserved to own homes"...what does that mean? maybe i'm slow or something but i don't understand that phrase.

Not all people have perfect credit. Conventional conforming loans (the loans you get at most bank) turn a lot of people with marginal to less than desirable credit down.

The idea of doing subprime is to offer an alternative for people who don't qaulify convetionally. Not everyone should get a mortgage but not everyone who has less than perfect credit should be exluded. There are many instances where I have people who have unexpected life events turn their credit upside down.

Some examples;

* unexpectidly job loss(a lot of 20+ year jobs have been eliminated and when these people find new jobs they pay much less which can turn a budget upside down)
* divorce with a spouse who didn't pay thier half of the bills
* medical issues (cancer for example has set a lot of very good people into credit turmoil, a loss of income and extra medical bills can drain a savings and make it hard to pay bills).


A lot of these people work hard to recover their credit but the doesn't rebound right away. Items reported negativley stay on the credit for seven years. Many won't quaify for a conventional mortgage many years after clearing up the issue. This is where sub prime came in. There is risk in these customers but if underwritten properly (as was the case for 20+ years) they should have the opportunity to purchase homes/refinance.

Hopefully that better expains my origninal statement.

[Mrs. Bee]

i still don't get the "defiant" line though. why are they defiant? i must be slow.

[MsMin]

"defiantly deserved to own homes"...what does that mean? maybe i'm slow or something but i don't understand that phrase.
I think he means they qualified and were a good risk at the time.
What confused me was a program I saw on TV on how the government is "destroying families" and they showed a man who purchased a 400K home whose mortgage was about 2K a month and said that with the ARM his payment jumped to 4K a month. He had the same job no extra circumstances etc. The media blamed the government for his dilemma stating it was their fault his payment went up...
WHY CAN'T THE CONSUMER BE AT FAULT??? This man said it was unfair b/c he didn't know the ARM would effect his payment by that much. I just don't see the logic there. He knew what he was signing and suddenly it wasn't his fault? I'm somewhat familiar with an ARM and I know that many (if not all) have caps and often can be affected by late payments and prime but this seemed so extreme to double his rate must have gone up to 18%. How is that the fault of the government? Everyone knows that prime is always changing and that we have seen much higher rates before and it's a gamble and your payment history and other factors can affect it right?? I don't work in the financial world but in mental health it's tough to get ppl to be responsible for their actions when the media is forgiving them and making them victims of circumstance. (I'm not speaking of ppl with personal hardships)... I can't be specific but I can say this that I've heard ppl that were psychotic telling the media about things that happened when in fact they were not true at all and the media does very little if anything to verify the story or care about the impact. It's frustrating to say the least...

[Jeff G]

i still don't get the "defiant" line though. why are they defiant? i must be slow.


My speller changed definitely which was spelled wrong to defiantly:blush:.

[Mrs. Bee]

My speller changed definitely which was spelled wrong to defiantly:blush:.

OHH! That explains why I was confused. Makes much more sense now. Haha.

[Quest4fun]

A lot of these people work hard to recover their credit but the doesn't rebound right away. Items reported negativley stay on the credit for seven years. Many won't quaify for a conventional mortgage many years after clearing up the issue. This is where sub prime came in. There is risk in these customers but if underwritten properly (as was the case for 20+ years) they should have the opportunity to purchase homes/refinance.

Hopefully that better expains my origninal statement.

It should be said that there are still people who simply should not be given a loan. Those who are trying to get out of their situation are not the ones you see going into foreclosure. Those people typically live within their means and purchase a house they can afford even after their rate adjusts.

It's the people who view credit as free money. Their cards are maxed out and they still get a new Escalade every 3 years. They don't consider a home an investment. To them it's a status symbol which is why the McMansion is so popular. As a society we tend to want everything now and nobody wants to work their way up.

The good think about all of this is that it's creating a market for the "fiscally responsible" to thrive in.

[Jeff G]

I'm somewhat familiar with an ARM and I know that many (if not all) have caps and often can be affected by late payments and prime but this seemed so extreme to double his rate must have gone up to 18%. How is that the fault of the government?

I'm betting this was a pay option ARM. These little buggers are horrible loans that are very easily misunderstood and were poorly explained more often than not. To explain:

If you listened to the radio a year or two back you may have heard nationally recognizable companies offering rates at 1.99 or 2.99%. Great rates, sure. We'll here was the fine print, after 3 months the rate adjusted to the 6-7% range and then after another 3 months it might go up more yet (I saw one that ended up at 9% from an original 1.99% within 18 months). Once the rate adjusted you had an option to pay the original payment with the teaser rate adding the amount you were short as negative equity on your balance(Your balance went up on your mortgage) or you could pay the new adjusted rate (this amount was almost double in some cases). From what I understand to qualify for this they actually used the better rate payment so it's easy to see why many couldn't afford these in the long run. The kicker on these is most had penalties for refinancing early requiring 6 months interest on top of the original balance.

My original thought on this program, who is dumb enough to actually take these. Yet many companies offered and promoted them while not doing a very good job explaining them. My company was approached on more than one occasion by mortgage companies prmoting us to offer this product, but we passed becasue this wasn't in the best interest of our customer. I often would comment to co-workers and colegues that it was only a atter of time before this poor program comes back to bite someone in the butt. One of the main companies servicing these loans is Countrywide, should help explain their problems.

All that said, why as a consumer would you take this loan? And if you don't understand why not ask questions or read the fine print?




It should be said that there are still people who simply should not be given a loan. Those who are trying to get out of their situation are not the ones you see going into foreclosure. Those people typically live within their means and purchase a house they can afford even after their rate adjusts.

It's the people who view credit as free money. Their cards are maxed out and they still get a new Escalade every 3 years. They don't consider a home an investment. To them it's a status symbol which is why the McMansion is so popular. As a society we tend to want everything now and nobody wants to work their way up.




I agree 100%. The sad thing is a lot of these people are prime borrowers too and we are seeing a spike in foreclosure on that side too. That is why I get so frustrated as a lender. Sub prime isn't totally faultless but the consumers spending habits are out of control. It used to be $3000-5000 in CC debt was a lot but that seems to be the norm. Now it's not uncommon for me to see $30,000- 50,000. We live in a buy it now society and buying homes with 0% down is the norm but wIth nothing in though invested it's easy to walk away.

[Ian]

I think her second point is pretty legitimate as well and those are not just people "who simply aren't properly prepared financially" as you put it. Many of the uninsured are employed, but work for small businesses which do not provide insurance for their workers, much less for their families.I disagree. You're espousing the same notion that all the advocates for government sponsored healthcare do, which is to imply that if you don't have employer sponsored healthcare you can't get any healthcare at all. That's simply not true ... you can get health insurance any time you want. You just have to pay for it and, presumably, if you can afford to buy a house you can afford to buy health insurance.

Good health insurance should be your first priority, even before purchasing a home. If you don't have insurance from work, buy it. Then worry about a house. Obviously, if you can't afford as much house after buying your insurance, buy a cheaper house. Or don't buy. Rent.

Bottom line is that is absolutely a perfect example of being fiscally irresponsible. Anyone who can afford to buy a house, but doesn't buy health insurance first is making a personal choice and can't turn around and cry foul when it backfires on them


The one problem which could prevent supply and demand economics from correcting a recession is external forces which prevent the laws of supply and demand to take effect. If OPEC won't consider reducing the cost of a barrel of oil, and so far they have no desire in helping the US, then gas prices will remain high, thus keep the prices of goods high as gas is essential for the transport of goods.Good point, Christine. The oil market is not a true free-market economy, so it's not really affected by overall market conditions. It's really a price-fixing situation.


This is the real problem I see with ARM's and our economy in general. I work in higher education and I am dumbfounded by the amount of student loans most people take out. They take the max not just what they actually need. Hello! This is not free money. It's a loan. You will have to pay it back. Everybody thinks things will be better tomorrow. By the way I work with graduate students so these are adults not 18 yr old kids. People just need to be more cautious with their spending.Well ... but to be fair, there's a lot of upside towards taking the max from a student loan because the interest rates are ridiculously low. Like 1.9% ... that is as close to free money as you can get. People need to remember that not all debt is bad debt.

[Mrs. Bee]

I agree 100%. The sad thing is a lot of these people are prime borrowers too and we are seeing a spike in foreclosure on that side too. That is why I get so frustrated as a lender. Sub prime isn't totally faultless but the consumers spending habits are out of control. It used to be $3000-5000 in CC debt was a lot but that seems to be the norm. Now it's not uncommon for me to see $30,000- 50,000. We live in a buy it now society and buying homes with 0% down is the norm but wIth nothing in though invested it's easy to walk away.

yikes. and i thought WE were the norm (no cc debt and putting at least 20% down on our house.) kind of sad, really.


I disagree. You're espousing the same notion that all the advocates for government sponsored healthcare do, which is to imply that if you don't have employer sponsored healthcare you can't get any healthcare at all. That's simply not true ... you can get health insurance any time you want. You just have to pay for it and, presumably, if you can afford to buy a house you can afford to buy health insurance.

Good health insurance should be your first priority, even before purchasing a home. If you don't have insurance from work, buy it. Then worry about a house. Obviously, if you can't afford as much house after buying your insurance, buy a cheaper house. Or don't buy. Rent.

Bottom line is that is absolutely a perfect example of being fiscally irresponsible. Anyone who can afford to buy a house, but doesn't buy health insurance first is making a personal choice and can't turn around and cry foul when it backfires on them.

You said exactly what I was thinking when I read the posts regarding health insurance. I know quite a few people that have gotten independent health insurance. It's pretty expensive but worth it. And like you said, if you can't afford health insurance, why are you even thinking you could afford a house? :shrug:

[Ian]

You said exactly what I was thinking when I read the posts regarding health insurance. I know quite a few people that have gotten independent health insurance. It's pretty expensive but worth it. And like you said, if you can't afford health insurance, why are you even thinking you could afford a house? :shrug:Well it's a value judgement, really. I actually have no problem with someone who says "I'm going to spend $100,000 more on my house because I want a nice house, but I'm going to forego medical insurance and hope nothing bad happens."

That's a personal choice and one we are more than free to make here in America. We're all responsible for our own decisions and actions when it comes to our financial priorities and if that's the way you want to go, then God love ya.

Just don't whine to me and expect me to feel bad for you when you get injured and go bankrupt from the medical bills. You made your bed, now lie in it.

[Mrs. Bee]

Well it's a value judgement, really. I actually have no problem with someone who says "I'm going to spend $100,000 more on my house because I want a nice house, but I'm going to forego medical insurance and hope nothing bad happens."

That's a personal choice and one we are more than free to make here in America. We're all responsible for our own decisions and actions when it comes to our financial priorities and if that's the way you want to go, then God love ya.

Just don't whine to me and expect me to feel bad for you when you get injured and go bankrupt from the medical bills. You made your bed, now lie in it.

Very true! I guess for me, personally, I could never do that. But yeah, everyone's priorities are different.

[Hammer]

I disagree. You're espousing the same notion that all the advocates for government sponsored healthcare do, which is to imply that if you don't have employer sponsored healthcare you can't get any healthcare at all. That's simply not true ... you can get health insurance any time you want. You just have to pay for it and, presumably, if you can afford to buy a house you can afford to buy health insurance.

Good health insurance should be your first priority, even before purchasing a home. If you don't have insurance from work, buy it. Then worry about a house. Obviously, if you can't afford as much house after buying your insurance, buy a cheaper house. Or don't buy. Rent.

Bottom line is that is absolutely a perfect example of being fiscally irresponsible. Anyone who can afford to buy a house, but doesn't buy health insurance first is making a personal choice and can't turn around and cry foul when it backfires on them


Well ... but to be fair, there's a lot of upside towards taking the max from a student loan because the interest rates are ridiculously low. Like 1.9% ... that is as close to free money as you can get. People need to remember that not all debt is bad debt.





You said exactly what I was thinking when I read the posts regarding health insurance. I know quite a few people that have gotten independent health insurance. It's pretty expensive but worth it. And like you said, if you can't afford health insurance, why are you even thinking you could afford a house? :shrug:


Well it's a value judgement, really. I actually have no problem with someone who says "I'm going to spend $100,000 more on my house because I want a nice house, but I'm going to forego medical insurance and hope nothing bad happens."

That's a personal choice and one we are more than free to make here in America. We're all responsible for our own decisions and actions when it comes to our financial priorities and if that's the way you want to go, then God love ya.

Just don't whine to me and expect me to feel bad for you when you get injured and go bankrupt from the medical bills. You made your bed, now lie in it.

We will have to agree to disagree on this topic (big shock, Ian: we disagree on a political topic :jaw: ;) ) I think you are making health insurance seem much more affordable than it actually is nor how many people do not come close to being able to afford an extra $100,000 expense for health insurance and/or affordable housing, be it buying or renting. There are too many people trying to make ends meet where they make just above the poverty level. But, I'm not going to change my mind and I know you won't change yours either. Let us just respect each other's differences and let us leave it at that, okay :hands: ?

Back to the original topic: I was reading today on how airlines are going to cut flights due to higher gas prices, as to maintain the current flight schedule will be too costly. If OPEC continues to dig in its heels, expect things like this to continue. What I think needs to happen is we (the US) needs to sit down with OPEC and come to some sort of compromise. The longer this goes on, the larger of a recession will the US have.

[Mrs. Bee]

We will have to agree to disagree on this topic (big shock, Ian: we disagree on a political topic :jaw: ;) ) I think you are making health insurance seem much more affordable than it actually is nor how many people do not come close to being able to afford an extra $100,000 expense for health insurance and/or affordable housing, be it buying or renting. There are too many people trying to make ends meet where they make just above the poverty level. But, I'm not going to change my mind and I know you won't change yours either. Let us just respect each other's differences and let us leave it at that, okay :hands: ?

Back to the original topic: I was reading today on how airlines are going to cut flights due to higher gas prices, as to maintain the current flight schedule will be too costly. If OPEC continues to dig in its heels, expect things like this to continue. What I think needs to happen is we (the US) needs to sit down with OPEC and come to some sort of compromise. The longer this goes on, the larger of a recession will the US have.

I don't doubt there are people trying hard to make ends meet. And there are people that can't afford insurance. And people that can't afford a house.

But what I am talking about are those people that go out and get a house. Get a mortgage. And don't get health insurance. Then they have unexpected medical bills that pile up. Because of that, they can't afford their house payment. Presumably if they could afford that house to begin with, they should have been able to afford health insurance and then maybe just a smaller house.

Then they get all upset about their mortgage payments. Well...whose fault is it that they chose a house over medical insurance? They really have only themselves to blame.

If their priority is buying a house (instead of renting or getting a smaller house) over health insurance...that's their choice. But if something happens they can't blame anyone else.

[Jeff G]

yikes. and i thought WE were the norm (no cc debt and putting at least 20% down on our house.) kind of sad, really.

That is awesome. It's good to know some people out there still know how to budget and save.



You said exactly what I was thinking when I read the posts regarding health insurance. I know quite a few people that have gotten independent health insurance. It's pretty expensive but worth it. And like you said, if you can't afford health insurance, why are you even thinking you could afford a house? :shrug:



Well it's a value judgment, really. I actually have no problem with someone who says "I'm going to spend $100,000 more on my house because I want a nice house, but I'm going to forego medical insurance and hope nothing bad happens."

That's a personal choice and one we are more than free to make here in America. We're all responsible for our own decisions and actions when it comes to our financial priorities and if that's the way you want to go, then God love ya.

Just don't whine to me and expect me to feel bad for you when you get injured and go bankrupt from the medical bills. You made your bed, now lie in it.


I agree in a perfect world you are both correct but in todays world with health costs this isn't always possible.

I am basically self employed, even thought I get a W2, and have to pay my own insurance. We are a healthy family with no major issues. Back in 2004 we paid $480/month for health insurance with a $250 deductible and dental. In 2007 for the same coverage the premium was up to $1300/mon. I called friends who sell insurance and explored every option. In the long run my premium was about as good as I could find. We'll I couldn't swing the payment so I raised my deductible to $1000, canceled the dental and agreed to a $35 copay. Now my premium is $800/mon for a skeleton policy.


I understand being responsible but how many people who make an average income can afford insurance if it's not employer covered(employer paid insurance is being cut back/eliminated all the time)? Whether you own a house or not you would still have housing costs.I am conservative (not trying to bring politics in) on all fronts but health insurance. I paid almost $10,000 in health premiums last year combining that with the medical, dental & prescription costs I paid on my own my total payments to medical exceeded $20000. How many people could afford that? I did it but it was a struggle. The only thing good is I had a great tax deduction and got money back but.....

In my opinion something has to be done to fix health care and quick. If the prices for insurance continue to sky rocket less and less will have it and the more uninsured we have the less bills will get paid resulting in ever continuing rising costs.

Just like I see more CC's these days, I see a ton more in the means of distressed credit due to unpaid medical bills via collections.

[Mrs. Bee]

That is awesome. It's good to know some people out there still know how to budget and save

I agree in a perfect world you are both correct but in todays world with health costs this isn't always possible.

I am basically self employed, even thought I get a W2, and have to pay my own insurance. We are a healthy family with no major issues. Back in 2004 we paid $480/month for health insurance with a $250 deductible and dental. In 2007 for the same coverage the premium was up to $1300/mon. I called friends who sell insurance and explored every option. In the long run my premium was about as good as I could find. We'll I couldn't swing the payment so I raised my deductible to $1000, canceled the dental and agreed to a $35 copay. Now my premium is $800/mon.


I understand being responsible but how many people who make an average income can afford insurance if it's not employer covered(employer paid insurance is being cut back/eliminated all the time)? Whether you own a house or not you would still have housing costs.I am conservative (not trying to bring politics in) on all fronts but health insurance. I paid almost $10,000 in health premiums last year combining that with the medical, dental & prescription costs I paid on my own my total payments to medical exceeded $20000. How many people could afford that? I did it but it was a struggle. The only thing good is I had a great tax deduction and got money back but.....

In my opinion something has to be done to fix health care and quick. If the prices for insurance continue to sky rocket less and less will have it and the more uninsured we have the less bills will get paid resulting in ever continuing rising costs.

Just like I see more CC's these days, I see a ton more in the means of distressed credit due to unpaid medical bills via collections.

Yeah. I suppose my thoughts do fit in more with a perfect world...haha.

Very good points and info. Definitely a different perspective so it's nice to read it.

[Mrs. Bee]

Oh yeah. And thanks for the compliment. I am definitely a budget conscious person. And I actually enjoy clipping coupons, finding sales, clearances, and bargains. And I also love shopping at the goodwill and stuff. There's something satifying about saving money. (Don't get me wrong, I still spend money on fun stuff like trips now and then and but I'm very selective...haha.)

[princessgirls]

I would say really only #3 on that list is a legitimate factor of a slowing economy. The other two examples are people who simply aren't properly prepared financially.

Yes. I work for a mortgage company, so I can speak with some authority on this point ...

Adjustable rate mortgages are absolutely fine, as long as you understand what you're getting in to. They generally provide borrrowers with a lower upfront interest rate in return for the borrower accepting the additional risk of the adjustable rate.

So they're great, for example, for folks looking at a short-term occupancy in their property, folks who are trying to buy a little more than they can afford now with the expectation that their incomes will rise over time to keep pace with the possible payment increases, folks buying investment properties looking to keep payments low ...

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with being an informed consumer of an ARM.

Ian, you have some excellent points. I think the housing boom of 2005/06 (espessially in the Northeast) pushed people into buying things that they were stretching for in the first place. Getting any loans that they could, thinking that this was the best way, because prices on housing were going higher by the day and they would sell in a year or two for a huge return. Not happening...
People aren't getting the overtime they used to, my company gave us all a 1% raise. I hear people telling me they are tighter. I see big beautiful houses sitting empty on the market for months. Things will rebound, it's all ebb and flow.
Interesting topic.
Julie:mickey:

[Hammer]

I agree in a perfect world you are both correct but in todays world with health costs this isn't always possible.

I am basically self employed, even thought I get a W2, and have to pay my own insurance. We are a healthy family with no major issues. Back in 2004 we paid $480/month for health insurance with a $250 deductible and dental. In 2007 for the same coverage the premium was up to $1300/mon. I called friends who sell insurance and explored every option. In the long run my premium was about as good as I could find. We'll I couldn't swing the payment so I raised my deductible to $1000, canceled the dental and agreed to a $35 copay. Now my premium is $800/mon for a skeleton policy.


I understand being responsible but how many people who make an average income can afford insurance if it's not employer covered(employer paid insurance is being cut back/eliminated all the time)? Whether you own a house or not you would still have housing costs.I am conservative (not trying to bring politics in) on all fronts but health insurance. I paid almost $10,000 in health premiums last year combining that with the medical, dental & prescription costs I paid on my own my total payments to medical exceeded $20000. How many people could afford that? I did it but it was a struggle. The only thing good is I had a great tax deduction and got money back but.....

In my opinion something has to be done to fix health care and quick. If the prices for insurance continue to sky rocket less and less will have it and the more uninsured we have the less bills will get paid resulting in ever continuing rising costs.

Just like I see more CC's these days, I see a ton more in the means of distressed credit due to unpaid medical bills via collections.

Jeff, thank you so much for your post and sharing your personal experience. Reading your post makes me appreciate even more how fortunate I am that I have always been provided with health insurance options through my employers, as well as qualifying for a 30yr/fixed rate mortgage as a single, professional woman.

[Ian]

Reading your post makes me appreciate even more how fortunate I am that I have always been provided with health insurance options through my employers ... Okay, but I have a question ... why does having health insurance provided through your employer make you "fortunate?"

Does that make Jeff "unfortunate" since he doesn't have employer sponsored health care?

I mean from what I've read of Jeff's posts, he seems like a very intelligent and highly marketable individual. I'm sure if he really wanted to he could go find a job at a company that picks up health care costs. Despite what some would have you believe, there are plenty of them out there.

It seems to me that Jeff has made a personal choice to work at the job he has now ... a job that provides no medical insurance. Sounds like a personal value judgement to me.

I work in an industry where contractors are very prevalent. Most of them are like Jeff ... W-2 workers that have to pick up their own health care expenses. They make that choice because, as contractors, they receive much higher wages than full-time employees do.

I guess I just don't understand the whole "fortunate/unfortunate" thing. This is America. No one twisted Jeff's arm and forced him to take a job with no health insurance. He made that choice for himself.

And Jeff, please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to call you out or use you as a bad example or anything. It's just your situation that Christine was commenting on, so it was your example I used.

[Jeff G]

Okay, but I have a question ... why does having health insurance provided through your employer make you "fortunate?"

Does that make Jeff "unfortunate" since he doesn't have employer sponsored health care?

I mean from what I've read of Jeff's posts, he seems like a very intelligent and highly marketable individual. I'm sure if he really wanted to he could go find a job at a company that picks up health care costs. Despite what some would have you believe, there are plenty of them out there.

It seems to me that Jeff has made a personal choice to work at the job he has now ... a job that provides no medical insurance. Sounds like a personal value judgement to me.

I work in an industry where contractors are very prevalent. Most of them are like Jeff ... W-2 workers that have to pick up their own health care expenses. They make that choice because, as contractors, they receive much higher wages than full-time employees do.

I guess I just don't understand the whole "fortunate/unfortunate" thing. This is America. No one twisted Jeff's arm and forced him to take a job with no health insurance. He made that choice for himself.

And Jeff, please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to call you out or use you as a bad example or anything. It's just your situation that Christine was commenting on, so it was your example I used.

No offense taken. I agree 100% with you. I have a great job with an above average income with one downfall that I don't get insurance. I've had many offers in the past year for employent with banks who would offer insurance but I made the decision to stay where I am.

The point of my post was more to point out how much insurance has shot up over the past few years and while they raise these costs they are also cutting back what they cover.

I agree that there are a lot of jobs out there with insurance but many are cutting it and everyday more American's who couldn't afford what I pay are being forced to fend for themselves. That I am certain of. The average annual household income in America is right around $48000. If insurance isn''t provided to a family of 4 making near that amount the $800/mon I pay would certainly be a strain to nealry impossible to afford.

I have a friend who's company was restructured and after 12 years of having insurance they took the benefit away, in his case his budget was thrown in turmoil. He is in the process of looking for a new job but he is having a heck of a time finding any job's paying near what he makes now plus many don't offer insurance for new hires.

Insurance & medical costs are an issue and there is no easy answer with no quick fixes and I'll leave it at that.

[Ian]

Thanks for the thoughtful and measured response, Jeff. Reinforces what I said about you being intelligent and marketable. ;)

I agree with you, as well, that healthcare costs are spiraling higher and higher each year. It is a very complex root cause situation that's made up of a lot of individual, very sticky issues.

Unfortunately, none of them have easy solutions. You're correct about that, too.

Anyway ... sorry for hijacking the thread. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion. :blush:

[Hammer]

All I was say by using the term "fortunate" is that I work in an industry that provides me with subsidized insurance options and many do not. When I worked as a contractor, I used the health insurance option that they offered which cost me a lot more than what I pay now and it did not offer me half of what I have now and cost me double. Yes, I did make the choice, though, so as to preserve my long term health because if I had stayed where I was working, my health would have deteriorated. I'm currently dealing with health problems primarily brought on by my former job.

Like Jeff, I have a friend whose company decided to no longer offer health insurance to its employees and he is currently searching for health insurance for he and his wife (her job does not offer insurance) that is going to work with their budget as there will not be any merit increases either. He is also looking for another job.

The one thing I think all 3 of us agree upon is health care costs are skyrocketing and it is becoming harder to cover the costs, especially if your salary is not also increasing.

[Jeff G]

Thanks for the thoughtful and measured response, Jeff. Reinforces what I said about you being intelligent and marketable. ;)




:trio:That's debatable:trio:

[Ian]

The one thing I think all 3 of us agree upon is health care costs are skyrocketing and it is becoming harder to cover the costs, especially if your salary is not also increasing.Christine, if you think about it it's very rare when you and I don't agree on the problems.

It's the solutions where we differ. ;)