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Epc0tphr34k
09-11-2007, 10:52 PM
NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, according to league sources.

NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.

The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said on Tuesday that no official decision has been made and that the club has not been notified.

The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.

Goodell is expected to have a decision no later than Friday but that is not set in stone.

Patriots owner Robert Kraft was asked when he expected a verdict, but said those questions had to be directed toward Goodell.

"There is an investigation going on now, and perhaps an adjudication of it, and I think it would be inappropriate at this time to make any comment," Kraft told reporters at a charity appearance Tuesday. "When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things. We understand that.

"We worked very hard to try to put an organization together that we all could be proud of in New England, and we're very proud of the New England Patriots organization and the record that they've established over the last 13 seasons and one game."

wow, must be easy to rack up a lot of offense and make the right call when you know exactly what defense is being called.
IMHO if Goodell officially decides they cheated they should not be able to make the playoffs regardless of their record.
Cheating in a game is more severe to me than anything Vick or Pacman has done.

JPL
09-11-2007, 11:06 PM
I think if this found to be ture the Game should be a forfeit and the Jets should get the win. And this is coming from a Giants Fan

DizneyFreak2002
09-11-2007, 11:58 PM
You still have to play the game on the field... Sure, it may give them an advantage, but, Brady still has to pass, his receivers still have to catch the ball... And fact is, the Jets aren't as good as the Patriots anyway.... They shouldn't have to forfeit anything.... But, heavy fines, maybe even a suspension the HC (Billy Boy's abbreviation of head coach)... But a forfeit??? Nah.....

As far as the comment that cheating is worse than what Vick or Jones did??? Are you kidding me??? Cheating is worse than killing and torturing dogs and being involved in a shootout where a man is left hospitalized??? I heard it all now.... Chris R, please tell me you were being sarcastic with this statement????

Epc0tphr34k
09-12-2007, 06:50 AM
As far as the comment that cheating is worse than what Vick or Jones did??? Are you kidding me??? Cheating is worse than killing and torturing dogs and being involved in a shootout where a man is left hospitalized??? I heard it all now.... Chris R, please tell me you were being sarcastic with this statement????
as far as the game and what its sanctioning body should be punishing people for i think this should be a bigger deal. those other things are in the interest of the law and its juristiction. maybe for humanity it is not worse but for the game of football itself this is the crime.

as far as people having to play the game on the field...any monkey can pick a part a defense if they are being told through their helmet what the coverages are and where the single coverage is gonna be. this is not the first time the patriots have been accused of this. and if you know where where the rush is coming from its easy to slide the protection.
but scheme and strategy often make the difference look at the saints they arguably had less talent last year(esp on defense) than they have had in the past yet last year was the farthest they went into the playoffs. jon gruden's offense may have been what put the buccs over the top when they won the superbowl . tony dungy's defense turned the colts from a great offensive team to something truly scary. So yaeh if bellechek was stealing signals to make his calls or to help brady call audibles then that is a big crime. and if they caught the cam stealing deffensive queues whose to say they weren't also checking on offensive queues.

Jeff
09-12-2007, 08:48 AM
This goes on at all levels of football - maybe not to the sophisticated level the Pats were using but it goes on. We had an opposing team a few years back who tried to use one of those "listening ear" things they advertise on TV to hear our huddle and sideline.

Even in High School football I disguise my D signals or throw in dummy hand gestures - just like baseball coaches. It's not that hard to counter a spying O. I would think, in the NFL for sure, such "counter measures" would be common place.

kakn7294
09-12-2007, 10:14 AM
Whether it's commonplace or not, cheating is unacceptable from any team at any level in any sport and while it's not a crime of the magnitude of the other offenses that have taken place recently, it still deserves a harsh punishment. And it makes me wonder, if the Pats were the better team over the Jets, why did they feel the need to cheat? How long this has gone on - does this go back to and tarnish the Superbowl years? Are the Patriots really that good of a team or if they are only that good because they are able to outmaneuver defenses because they know what's coming? Sure, it still takes skill to make those plays and I know I couldn't do it, but it's so much easier to run your patterns and make plays when you know what your opponent is going to be doing. And who else out there is cheating? It kind of tarnishes the whole sport...

Ian
09-12-2007, 10:59 AM
The only issue I have with this is a semantical one in that it's specifically against the rules to do it the way the Pats allegedly did.

People try and steal signals all the time ... it's nothing new. It's just looking for every edge you can get.

I agree that you still need to execute ... knowing what defense the other team has called is really only a moderate advantage.

kakn7294
09-12-2007, 11:23 AM
I should clarify my post - I'm not saying that the Patriots aren't a good team - they have a lot of talent there and it still takes that talent to win. I was just using them as an example of what I wanted to say because of the recent incident. What I was trying to say is that I guess that I always knew that cheating goes on but having it brought to light and proven to occur puts a bad light on the sport for me and now I wonder who else has done it and what it's gained them that they shouldn't have achieved. I also feel that without punishment, it's only going to encourage it more from the NFL all the way down to the pee-wee leagues.

Jimenyfan
09-12-2007, 01:45 PM
This goes on at all levels of football - maybe not to the sophisticated level the Pats were using but it goes on. We had an opposing team a few years back who tried to use one of those "listening ear" things they advertise on TV to hear our huddle and sideline.

Even in High School football I disguise my D signals or throw in dummy hand gestures - just like baseball coaches. It's not that hard to counter a spying O. I would think, in the NFL for sure, such "counter measures" would be common place.

My sons high school defense coach does the same thing for the same reason.

Scar
09-12-2007, 01:49 PM
I had no idea this was even illegal! Now, since it is, they should be punished. But, why is this illegal? The team giving the signals (which by the way is every team) should be able to disguise / change them well enough to confuse the other team. In fact if the Jets thought the Pats were doing this, then they should have changed them around and then the Jets would have had the advantage.

Not the same, but similar… I’ve heard many baseball hitters say they do not want to know the type of pitch coming (location is a different matter.) They say they don’t trust it. What if they’re told it’s a curve ball, and they hang in at a ball coming at their head and it’s really a fastball.

Jeff G
09-12-2007, 02:34 PM
I agree that you still need to execute ... knowing what defense the other team has called is really only a moderate advantage.

To offer another perspective, if a offense knows what coverage a defense is running or if you know a team is cheating/blitzing to the strong/weakside you can set your mismatches based on the coverage. This is a huge advantage to the offense and can affect the out come of the game.

Stealing signals happens at almost every level from high school thru pro and coaches alter there signals. The idea of a camera man captuing these signals on tape is where NE stepped over the line. I'm sure the camera had a zoom on it that is much stronger than the human eye.

It is illegal to use a camera and NE got caught. The advantage that NE had by using this camera may or may not have altered the outcome of the game. In my opinion NE should have to forfiet the game since they cheated.

It's also noted that they were suspected of doing this in the past. Here in Wisconsinit was reported the Ted Thompson of the Packers had turned this same complaint in to the NFL about NE after last years game.

battlefield2freak
09-12-2007, 03:12 PM
hello you need to think about this instead of accusing everyone on the patriots. to those of you who arent thank you. first off ask yourself why int he world someone like belicheck woucld need to send someone to spy on the jets. they just played the jets in the playoffs and regular season. 2nd the jets arent really a matchup to the patriots so yea its easy to get 38 and with a good defense allow only 14 points. 3rd spying on the jets doesnt determine if the reciever/rb/QB will fumble or catch the ball. and to those who say the patriots shouldnt be allowed to get into the playoffs are taking things to seriously. the patriots will be allowed into the playoffs depending on how wel they do this year just like any other team, just because you dont like a certain team doenst mean you can say they shouldnt be allowed into the playoffs. i mean you dont even know if he was told to do it or if he acted on his own will. if he did act on his own will he will be the only one punished more than likely.

Epc0tphr34k
09-12-2007, 04:19 PM
I had no idea this was even illegal! Now, since it is, they should be punished. But, why is this illegal? The team giving the signals (which by the way is every team) should be able to disguise / change them well enough to confuse the other team. In fact if the Jets thought the Pats were doing this, then they should have changed them around and then the Jets would have had the advantage.

what is illegal is that they are recording it to match up with the poloroids they are allowed to take. Stealing signals does happen on the feild and that is fine. its ok for a safety to try and out think its not ok to take in something and record it. there is supposedly a smoking gun of them recording the opposing sideline and specifically the jets coaches


hello you need to think about this instead of accusing everyone on the patriots. to those of you who arent thank you. first off ask yourself why int he world someone like belicheck woucld need to send someone to spy on the jets. they just played the jets in the playoffs and regular season. 2nd the jets arent really a matchup to the patriots so yea its easy to get 38 and with a good defense allow only 14 points. 3rd spying on the jets doesnt determine if the reciever/rb/QB will fumble or catch the ball. and to those who say the patriots shouldnt be allowed to get into the playoffs are taking things to seriously. the patriots will be allowed into the playoffs depending on how wel they do this year just like any other team, just because you dont like a certain team doenst mean you can say they shouldnt be allowed into the playoffs. i mean you dont even know if he was told to do it or if he acted on his own will. if he did act on his own will he will be the only one punished more than likely.


The point of the matter is the team broke the rules. bellichek has now apologized for the incident . punishing a team by not allowing them into the play offs is standard practice in the ncaa for probation if a team breaks league rules, and incidentally terrell davis agrees with me that this should be the action taken.

if this were the eagles doing this i would find the same punishment suitable and i live and die for midnight green. would it break my heart? yes. would it be fair due to the fact that they broke the rules i also think yes.
the likely punishment however will be loss of multiple draft picks and some suspensions of some sort. which i don't think fits the crime but it is what is being said will be done

SBETigg
09-12-2007, 04:37 PM
And who else out there is cheating? It kind of tarnishes the whole sport...

I totally agree. I wonder if it's more widespread and I think it requires serious study and suitable punishments. I'm very disappointed.

battlefield2freak
09-12-2007, 05:12 PM
what is illegal is that they are recording it to match up with the poloroids they are allowed to take. Stealing signals does happen on the feild and that is fine. its ok for a safety to try and out think its not ok to take in something and record it. there is supposedly a smoking gun of them recording the opposing sideline and specifically the jets coaches




The point of the matter is the team broke the rules. bellichek has now apologized for the incident . punishing a team by not allowing them into the play offs is standard practice in the ncaa for probation if a team breaks league rules, and incidentally terrell davis agrees with me that this should be the action taken.

if this were the eagles doing this i would find the same punishment suitable and i live and die for midnight green. would it break my heart? yes. would it be fair due to the fact that they broke the rules i also think yes.
the likely punishment however will be loss of multiple draft picks and some suspensions of some sort. which i don't think fits the crime but it is what is being said will be done

as you said standard practice in the NCAA. the news article on the nfl site said the punishments would be either fines, suspensions, or loss of draft picks or all of them. not allowing a team into the playoffs is totaly unfair so what would the point of playing a season be if your notg oing to be allowed into the playoffs or have a chance. this is pro not college, big differences in the rules

DizneyFreak2002
09-12-2007, 06:58 PM
I totally agree. I wonder if it's more widespread and I think it requires serious study and suitable punishments. I'm very disappointed.
Well, mangini did bring the Patriots culture to the Jets... so....

Hammer
09-12-2007, 09:32 PM
:cop: Moderator Alert :cop:

Okay, everyone, let's all take a breath. Some of these posts are getting a bit out of hand. Let's keep the conversation civil.

The reason I think New England should (and possibly will) get a harsh penalty is they received a warning for doing the exact same thing last year. This is not a first offense.

Ian
09-12-2007, 09:50 PM
It occurred to me this afternoon ... when the Eagles played the Patriots in the Super Bowl, all second half I clearly remember thinking, "Man ... it's like their offense knows exactly what defense we're gonna be in every time!"

Turns out I was right.

Epc0tphr34k
09-12-2007, 11:10 PM
It occurred to me this afternoon ... when the Eagles played the Patriots in the Super Bowl, all second half I clearly remember thinking, "Man ... it's like their offense knows exactly what defense we're gonna be in every time!"

Turns out I was right.
watching my dvd of the game you kow you're right....and even if they weren't using this tactic, at least you brought a smile to my face

Ian
09-13-2007, 01:23 PM
I read or heard somewhere that an analysis of Patriots division games shows a remarkable number of games where they were losing at halftime, only to come out and dominate in the second half.

Guess those halftime adjustments are a lot easier once you've got all the signals stolen! :secret:

Scar
09-13-2007, 01:59 PM
From today's Star-Ledger:

Security chief catches the spy on the sideline

Thursday, September 13, 2007

BY DAVE HUTCHINSON AND RICK HEPP

Star-Ledger Staff

HEMPSTEAD, N.Y. -- Eagle-eyed former FBI agent Steve Yarnell -- who has been with the Jets for 11 seasons, the past four as the team's director of security -- sniffed out the Patriots' spy attempts on Sunday.

Yarnell, who was initially hired by Bill Parcells and has also worked with the Giants and Patriots, spotted New England video assistant Matt Estrella taking illegal video of the Jets coaches sending in defensive signals during last Sunday's game and turned him in to NFL security.

"Steve is very good at what he does," said a person close to the investigation who did not want to be identified because of the sensitive nature of the situation. "He watches everything. He can be a pain in the butt, but you want him in a foxhole with you."

Yarnell, who also serves as a body guard for Jets coach Eric Mangini during games, spotted Estrella and confronted him on the field.

Pat Aramini, vice president of security at the Meadowlands Complex, said Yarnell viewed a portion of the tape and saw it was of a Jets defensive coach.

Eventually, security from the NFL, Jets and Patriots, as well as state troopers in the Sports Complex unit, ended up in Aramini's office at Giants Stadium, where they spent "at least an hour" trying to determine who would get the video camera and tape, Aramini said. At one point, there was a discussion of copying the tape and giving the copy to the Jets, but the team balked at the idea.

"The NFL wanted to take possession of the tape and the Patriots said no," Aramini said. "It went back and forth until we got a call from the league that any footage taken on the field belongs to the NFL."

The Patriots did not like the answer, Aramini said, and the team's security representative said New England wasn't going to give up the tape.

"I said, 'I'm in possession of it now,'" Aramini said. "It belongs to the NFL by rights. If the Patriots have any problem they can take it up with the league on Monday. The NFL took the tape and the video camera."

He said everyone in the room was a "gentleman," with the Patriots security representative asking the others "not to kill the messenger."

Ian
09-13-2007, 04:42 PM
You know this is tough for me ... I've always been a big admirer of the Patriots. Even though they beat the Eagles in the Super Bowl, I can't help but appreciate the tradition of success they've built up their and Robert Kraft's obvious committment to winning.

But boy ... what an ARROGANT franchise! Were they like this before they won or is it just the weight of those three rings that's gone to Belichek's head? Refusing to turn the tape over to the NFL even after they've been instructed to do so??? Yikes ... who's this guy think he is??

I also just read a story that claims that, at Foxboro, coaches headsets have a habit of mysteriously "breaking" during games. Seems like the Pats were trying to force opposing coaches to communicate using methods they could easily intercept.

battlefield2freak
09-13-2007, 05:40 PM
You know this is tough for me ... I've always been a big admirer of the Patriots. Even though they beat the Eagles in the Super Bowl, I can't help but appreciate the tradition of success they've built up their and Robert Kraft's obvious committment to winning.

But boy ... what an ARROGANT franchise! Were they like this before they won or is it just the weight of those three rings that's gone to Belichek's head? Refusing to turn the tape over to the NFL even after they've been instructed to do so??? Yikes ... who's this guy think he is??

I also just read a story that claims that, at Foxboro, coaches headsets have a habit of mysteriously "breaking" during games. Seems like the Pats were trying to force opposing coaches to communicate using methods they could easily intercept.

i do think thats a stupid decision to not hand the tape over to the nfl. if i read the story right it siad all security including those from NFL, pats, jets and state troopers where the only ones in the office deciding what to do with the tape so i dont think belichek had any say in what happens to the tape.

PirateLover
09-13-2007, 07:08 PM
This certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The thing is, now that we know they have cheated once for sure and have been accused of as much in other instances, it puts a lot of questions in your mind. I've never been a Pats hater. But yes I do remember the second half of the Eagles game, how the Pats defense knew where Westbrook was going before he got there, how our D that was so successful in the first half was rendered practically incompetant in the second. At the time we chalked it up to Bellichek's genius in knowing what changes to make during half time. But what if those changes were aided by the fact that they knew exactly what was coming?

In the past few days I've often heard the phrase "If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin." That may be true but it still doesn't make it right. There is also a major difference between decoding signals with the naked eye- that is almost an artform and not everyone can do it- and sitting there with a video camera zooming in on every signal. As mentioned, I can't believe they cheated against the Jets. They didn't need to. As Ian said I see this as straight up arrogance.

JPL
09-13-2007, 07:49 PM
I belive as I stated earlier the win should be taken away from the Patriots and I am far from a Patriot Hater and much closer to a Jet Hater if anything. This is a case where the punishment needs to fit the crime. Will we ever know if the Patriots would have won the game without cheating? I know most people think they could have won without cheating but the fact of the matter is they were caught redhanded here. Let's look at a possible scenario since some people brought up the playoffs. Let's say the Jets miss the Playoffs by 1 game and the Patriots make it in by that 1 game. It sure looks like a much bigger offense then. With the recent problems in all of Pro Sports lately I think the NFL could set a good example here by making the Patriots Forfeit the game and giving the win to the Jets. It would definately set a good precedent so something like this doesn't happen again in the future. As far as the other sanctions such as fines, taking away draft picks and suspension are concerned, I would like to know how this solves the problem. Fines big deal this doesn't really hurt the franchise. Loss of Draft picks when you have the record of the Patriots these aren't really top high quality team changing picks. When you factor in free agencies and players looking for a team that has a chance of winning it all this becomes a joke. Suspension who do you suspend? IMHO taking away the win is the only fair solution that makes sense.

Epc0tphr34k
09-13-2007, 08:28 PM
But boy ... what an ARROGANT franchise! Were they like this before they won or is it just the weight of those three rings that's gone to Belichek's head? Refusing to turn the tape over to the NFL even after they've been instructed to do so??? Yikes ... who's this guy think he is??

coming from the area i can assure you both the franchise and there fans are that arrogant. bob kraft is a tool of george steinbrenner proportions.

the thing that gets me is the reason they were loved by the nation in the first place was during that first superbowl after sept 11 when they played the rams they were the lovable losers. they were the everyman. and they seem to have abandoned that persona since winning...now they rather be the bully

battlefield2freak
09-13-2007, 09:14 PM
coming from the area i can assure you both the franchise and there fans are that arrogant. bob kraft is a tool of george steinbrenner proportions.

the thing that gets me is the reason they were loved by the nation in the first place was during that first superbowl after sept 11 when they played the rams they were the lovable losers. they were the everyman. and they seem to have abandoned that persona since winning...now they rather be the bully

you cant even say the fans are arrogant. if your so assured give some examples because for one i am a patriots fan and happy to be one and when im watching any other football game im not rude and want them to lose except the cardinals ( college, in state rivalry ). you crossed the line with that statement because you dont know every single patriots fan so how would you know if all the fans arrogant?

could care less right now about forfeiting hte gmae to the jets since we play them twice and we can beat them without cheating. and in the playoffs any teams offense or defense can change rather quickly beacuse your motivated to make it to the superbowl so you got to play tougher. now im not denying the eagles game int he playoffs because i didnt get a chance to watch it so i cant comment on that. and another thing tell me whose the bully? the patriots havent done any bullying at all so please tell me how they are bullies. we havent had near as many players make headlines bc of broken rules and league policies this year as many teams this year. so far just 2 tha i remember, the video assistant and harrison when compared to others thats significantly low.

PirateLover
09-13-2007, 09:24 PM
The penalty has been revealed. Belichik has been fined $500,000; team fined $250,000; depending on whether or not the make the playoffs determines how many picks they lose and in what round.

JPL
09-13-2007, 09:51 PM
$750,000 is a joke the NFL should be ashamed of themselves :shake: It looks like another professional sports league is heading on the downhill slide.

Epc0tphr34k
09-13-2007, 10:27 PM
$750,000 is a joke the NFL should be ashamed of themselves :shake: It looks like another professional sports league is heading on the downhill slide.
seconded, this is nuts

its a slap on the wrist. probably won't even make them think twice about doing it again

Epc0tphr34k
09-13-2007, 10:46 PM
you cant even say the fans are arrogant. if your so assured give some examples because for one i am a patriots fan and happy to be one and when im watching any other football game im not rude and want them to lose except the cardinals ( college, in state rivalry ).
fairly certain i made a global assessment and did not single out you or anyone else here. yes i have friends who are patsies fans and have been for as long as i have known them, and wouldn't necessarily include them in my assessment. I am also pretty sure that living here in connecticut, i see a much larger cross section of not only the fanbase but the press coverage than you would in say kentucky. If you want to come up here for a couple monthes where the fans go on about how they are gods gift to football and the news makes insinuations that the rest of the teams needn't bother playing because noone can stop their juggernaut. i would say that both qualifies for arrogance and bullying but i could be wrong. new england sports fans as a rule are fair weather fans that come out of the woodwork when their teams do well. this includes all new england sports not just football. there are more patriots and red sox fans professing their superiority in the last 5-6 years that at any point in my 30 yr lifetime. everyone here were giants fans when i was growing up coincidentally the giants happened to be very good at that time, then the cowboys took over and you tripped over cowboy fans.

PirateLover
09-14-2007, 01:22 AM
I also think the penalty wasn't enough. I don't know that it would've been fair to make them forfeit the game just because there is no precedent for it... but I do think that the coach should've been suspended for at least one game.

SBETigg
09-14-2007, 07:26 AM
Tiki Barber was just on the Today show talking about it. He felt it was a just punishment. He said that all teams do it and the Patriots got caught, probably due to the bad blood between coaches. He hopes this puts an end to it for all teams. He also thinks it had no effect on the outcome of the Jets game but was information that could help in future games. So, before judging the Patriots too harshly, you may want to ask yourself what actions you would want taken if your team was the one that was caught. If the answer is the same (and it could be, cheating is bad), then okay.

And Chris, to say "Patriots fans are arrogant" is certainly lumping all of them together, including your friends. It is insulting people and I think it's a TOS violation. I live in New England and I have lived in Michigan amongst Lions fans and fans are fans. Nothing wrong with team pride. We're no different than other fans. I don't appreciate the insults.

Jeff
09-14-2007, 07:41 AM
OK Guys!
No more personal attacks.
Discuss the cheating / not the fans, etc...
If we can't play nice a ref is going to step in and stop the game!:ref:

Donald A
09-14-2007, 09:53 AM
The punishment should fit the crime.

Bill Belichik should be made to come back and coach the Cleveland Browns for the 2007 season! That would be a true punishment!

Jeff G
09-14-2007, 10:15 AM
The penalty does seem a little weak. $250,000 to a rich NFL owner is a drop in the bucket while $500,000 to a coach is a little more sever (if the team doesn't end up paying it). When you think of how much extra revenue a Super Bowl brings to an organization and value it adds to the organization there may be teams that may feel this is still a risk worth taking with just the fine alone. In addition to the money though there is the loss of a 1st round draft pick if they make the play-offs or a 2nd & 3rd if they don't. That is a pretty stiff penalty. Even a talented team like the NE needs those early draft picks to replace players. Could the penalty have been stiffer, yes. I personally thought the win should be taken away. Let's hope that coupling the money, the draft pick and the embarrassment of being caught cheating will curb future situations like this.

I also saw bits of the Tiki interview and he states other teams are doing this. It may be true but the only team that was caught was NE and the only team I've heard accused of this in the past was also NE. Why would teams accuse NE of doing this or try to catch NE if they are also doing this? It doesn't add up.

SBETigg
09-14-2007, 10:23 AM
I also saw bits of the Tiki interview and he states other teams are doing this. It may be true but the only team that was caught was NE and the only team I've heard accused of this in the past was also NE. Why would teams accuse NE of doing this or try to catch NE if they are also doing this? It doesn't add up.

Of course it adds up. Look at the resentment for the Patriots in this thread alone. Resentment drives people to do a lot of things, like make sure the other team is caught looking bad. No one's going to want to start pointing fingers all over the place and making the whole NFL look bad. It's enough to point the finger at the loathed Patriots(easy target, since they were warned before), embarrass them, give people reason to doubt their skill, and back off with a weak fine.

If it wasn't widespread, don't you think the punishment would have been stiffer and the whole thing would have been more shocking? ESPN and sports reporters are talking about it, yes, but it's barely the huge story it should be if it was the big bad Patriots alone breaking all the rules.

But that everyone else is doing it too is by no means an excuse and it is shameful and embarrassing, and disappointing for the fans.

Ian
09-14-2007, 10:46 AM
Hey folks, just to echo what Jeff said, let's keep the personal stuff down to a dull roar please?

The Locker Room mods normally allow a little more leeway in this forum because of the subject matter, but even this board has limits.

Let's try and be very respectful of one another's viewpoints, k?

Jeff G
09-14-2007, 11:07 AM
Of course it adds up. Look at the resentment for the Patriots in this thread alone. Resentment drives people to do a lot of things, like make sure the other team is caught looking bad. No one's going to want to start pointing fingers all over the place and making the whole NFL look bad. It's enough to point the finger at the loathed Patriots, embarrass them, give people reason to doubt their skill, and back off with a weak fine.

If it wasn't widespread, don't you think the punishment would have been stiffer and the whole thing would have been more shocking? ESPN and sports reporters are talking about it, yes, but it's barely the huge story it should be if it was the big bad Patriots alone breaking all the rules.

But that everyone else is doing it too is by no means an excuse and it is shameful and embarrassing, and disappointing for the fans.


I understand what your saying and maybe this is more widespread than I want to believe. When I said it didn't add up here is my logic. After the Packers played NE last year Ted Thompson stated to the league that he felt that NE was using a video camera to steal their defensive signals. If the Packers were engaging in the same practice I have a hard time believing they would call out the Pat's even if they loath each other. If I'm at work and I know a co-worker is getting ahead of me by cheating the system I would consider turning them in. If I'm engaging in the same exact cheating practice would I turn them in? I doubt most would.That is my logic. Why would other teams complain if they are using the same tactic?

I'm a fan of the Patriot's and like how they built the team without the flash. Plus Tom Brady is one of my favorite QB's of all time. My comments weren't meant to be an attcak at the Patriots, just my opinion.

PirateLover
09-14-2007, 12:42 PM
I also harbor no resentment towards the Patriots, even though they beat us in the super bowl. I would have the same opinion if it was any other team, yes, including the Eagles. I have heard talk of this from people who don't even follow sports and on regular news programs, so I disagree that it isn't a big deal. I also follow Jeff G's logic. If every team was using this technique, then the other teams wouldn't be commenting on it. They would just sweep it under the rug. I think that all teams try to figure out signals, but I don't think all teams have an employee on the sidelines taping hand signals. These allegations have been made multiple times against the Patriots and no other team that we know of at this time.

I also just heard that the Patriots actually have two first round picks and two third round picks so that penalty doesn't even hurt them as much.

The bottom line for me is this: If there wasn't some kind of competitive advantage to be gained from this practice then why do it? Why take that risk? Especially against a team where the coach knows your tactics and is going to be on the lookout to possibly sell you out? How far do you go to win?

Donald A
09-14-2007, 12:51 PM
I also harbor no resentment towards the Patriots, even though they beat us in the super bowl. I would have the same opinion if it was any other team, yes, including the Eagles. I have heard talk of this from people who don't even follow sports and on regular news programs, so I disagree that it isn't a big deal. I also follow Jeff G's logic. If every team was using this technique, then the other teams wouldn't be commenting on it. They would just sweep it under the rug. I think that all teams try to figure out signals, but I don't think all teams have an employee on the sidelines taping hand signals. These allegations have been made multiple times against the Patriots and no other team that we know of at this time.

I also just heard that the Patriots actually have two first round picks and two third round picks so that penalty doesn't even hurt them as much.

The bottom line for me is this: If there wasn't some kind of competitive advantage to be gained from this practice then why do it? Why take that risk? Especially against a team where the coach knows your tactics and is going to be on the lookout to possibly sell you out? How far do you go to win?

One of the Eagles players was quoted as saying that he believes he is now the Super Bowl Champ. He wants to trade in his NFC Championship ring for a Super Bowl ring. I know that is a stretch but if you cheat now you very well cheated then. I sorta agree with the Eagles player.

This post makes a good point, if they claim they won games because of their talent, why did they bother cheating. You can't say they didn't know they were cheating, they did and Goddell mentioned the memo (Sept. 6) that told them specifically video of signals was against the rules. They were caught, it is a fact, they cheated.

Football fans are passionate. Fans in New England are passionate and they are the ones who really are suffering here. It's a tough situation.

Epc0tphr34k
09-14-2007, 12:55 PM
If it wasn't widespread, don't you think the punishment would have been stiffer and the whole thing would have been more shocking?

i have a hard time following this train of thought. i would think if you think this is going to be a future problem or it is more widespread than you think then you would skew to the side of harsher punishment to make the punishment horrible enough that it makes others not even want to try.

Epc0tphr34k
09-14-2007, 01:19 PM
One of the Eagles players was quoted as saying that he believes he is now the Super Bowl Champ. He wants to trade in his NFC Championship ring for a Super Bowl ring.


that was reno mahe and he kinda said it in a joking manor if you read the quote.

darthmacho
09-14-2007, 02:00 PM
:thedolls:

I love the Pats, and this scandal has taken much of the fun of being a Pats fan, especially considering their success. I think the worst culprit is Belichik, and apparently he will pay for his greed, and pride, both of which are deadly sins. They were told to stop, and still proceeded to break the rules.

I still support the team, but they had better get their act together, and succeed without cheating.

As for Mangini, he is a hypocrite. Chances are, he was okay with the whole taping thing when he was the one benefitting from the practice two years ago when he was on the payroll. He got his current job thanks to the success of the Patriots, so if the Patriots success has been tainted by the cheating, so has his success as well.

SBETigg
09-14-2007, 02:08 PM
i have a hard time following this train of thought. i would think if you think this is going to be a future problem or it is more widespread than you think then you would skew to the side of harsher punishment to make the punishment horrible enough that it makes others not even want to try.

Not if you don't want to call more attention to a matter and want the issue closed before the widespread possibility of cheating can be explored further. A harsher punishment might call for more backlash from the Patriots and and exposure of other teams.

Or you can believe the Pats are the only ones cheating. I hope they are, truly. They're my team, but it's a disgusting practice. I don't want to believe it's widespread, but I'm not naive.

battlefield2freak
09-14-2007, 03:03 PM
also if you were to read the what it said on the nfl site when it said breaking news it said they lost there first round draft pick as well as the fines to belicheck and the franchise. all in all that really doesnt hurt the pats all it is is just a fine and losing a draft pick which they wouldnt need to use more than likely since they have great talent on both offense and defense.

ccp1
09-15-2007, 11:47 AM
I've been a Pats fan for as long as I care to admit. Not a "jump on the bandwagon-Tom Brady era" fan, I've been a fan since the Steve Grogan/ Matt Cavanaugh years, when they were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs by week 3 every year.

That being said, I am embarrassed to be a Pats fan right now. People push the envelope of what they can get away with all the time in this world, but that doesn't make it ok.

- The NFL addressed this exact situation during the offseason, reminding teams that it was illegal,

-The Pats did it anyway,

-Bill Belichick, who is well known for knowing EVERYTHING about the rules (remember the creation of the tuck rule?) used as an excuse "I had a different interpretation of the rule".

???

IMHO, the NFL, apparently, doesn't mind having its intelligence insulted, because I would have suspended him just for giving that rediculous excuse.

I would have had no problem with a suspension for BB, or even a forfit (even though the footage was never seen, it doesn't make the act right). The NFL seems to be saying, as long as you have the money to cover it, cheating is ok.

(Just my humble opinion, yours may vary...)

Ian
09-15-2007, 01:18 PM
What I find marginally baffling is that fact that the NFL suspended Wade Wilson (Cowboys' QB coach) for five games for using HGH, which he says he takes to help him with his diabetes symptoms.

Now this is a coach, mind you. Not a player. This had absolutely ZERO affect on the outcome of any NFL games. Yet that somehow warranted a five game suspension vs. no games for Belichek??

And in reality, while what people like PacMan Jones, Tank Johnson, and Michael Vick did off the field was certainly more reprehensible than what Belichek did, none of their offenses affected the outcome of games either. And yet all of them were suspended for entire seasons! Or in Vick's case, indefinitely.

Goodell is supposed to be cracking down on things that in any way tarnish the NFL's image. Well what could tarnish a league's image more than one of its marquee coaches cheating?

I guess in the end it tells players, "Hey ... if you're a three time Super Bowl champion head coach, we'll let you get away with just about anything!"

Dubious ... very, very dubious ...

Scar
09-15-2007, 02:16 PM
Dubious ... very, very dubious ...:yes:

Remember, Goodell works for the owners, not the players.

Jeff G
09-16-2007, 12:13 AM
What I find marginally baffling is that fact that the NFL suspended Wade Wilson (Cowboys' QB coach) for five games for using HGH, which he says he takes to help him with his diabetes symptoms.

Now this is a coach, mind you. Not a player. This had absolutely ZERO affect on the outcome of any NFL games. Yet that somehow warranted a five game suspension vs. no games for Belichek??

And in reality, while what people like PacMan Jones, Tank Johnson, and Michael Vick did off the field was certainly more reprehensible than what Belichek did, none of their offenses affected the outcome of games either. And yet all of them were suspended for entire seasons! Or in Vick's case, indefinitely.

Goodell is supposed to be cracking down on things that in any way tarnish the NFL's image. Well what could tarnish a league's image more than one of its marquee coaches cheating?

I guess in the end it tells players, "Hey ... if you're a three time Super Bowl champion head coach, we'll let you get away with just about anything!"

Dubious ... very, very dubious ...

Ian, this is well said and I agree 100%.

battlefield2freak
09-16-2007, 08:56 AM
What I find marginally baffling is that fact that the NFL suspended Wade Wilson (Cowboys' QB coach) for five games for using HGH, which he says he takes to help him with his diabetes symptoms.

Now this is a coach, mind you. Not a player. This had absolutely ZERO affect on the outcome of any NFL games. Yet that somehow warranted a five game suspension vs. no games for Belichek??

And in reality, while what people like PacMan Jones, Tank Johnson, and Michael Vick did off the field was certainly more reprehensible than what Belichek did, none of their offenses affected the outcome of games either. And yet all of them were suspended for entire seasons! Or in Vick's case, indefinitely.

Goodell is supposed to be cracking down on things that in any way tarnish the NFL's image. Well what could tarnish a league's image more than one of its marquee coaches cheating?

I guess in the end it tells players, "Hey ... if you're a three time Super Bowl champion head coach, we'll let you get away with just about anything!"

Dubious ... very, very dubious ...

actually the jets let them record there signals because if they were looking the guy was using a old camera, you know the kind TV stations use, not small one. i agree with most of your post though. the cowboys coach wade wilson shouldnt have been suspended, suspending him makes the NFL look like they really dont care about the coaches and players health. and aso keep in mind pacman jones, and tank johnson had a record of getting in trouble with police and this was only belichecks second offense so the punishment they gave them so far is just about fair and i would also like to know hwy only the fines were reported? this is the punishment so far: $500,000 fine on belichek a $250,000 on the franchise, the loss of there first round pick and depending on wethere or not they make the playoffs this year will decide wether or not they lose more draft picks. i wonder why they didnt fine the guy who was video taping, which i see as the only thing they got away with.

Ian
09-16-2007, 09:09 AM
Just to be clear, the punishment as I understand it is that they lose a 1st round pick next year if they make the playoffs this year. If not they lose a third rounder.

Coincidentally enough, however, the Pats have two first rounders and two third rounders next year.

Which might be why most folks are ignoring that part of the punishment, because it seems a little coincidental. :secret:

battlefield2freak
09-16-2007, 12:54 PM
ah i see. i dont keep up with the number of picks they get since its more exciting to find out during draft day.

but they way i understood what was posted during that breaking news annoucement on the nfl site i took it that they was fined $750,000 all together and they lost there first round picks then i heard last night they could lose more depending on them making the playoffs.

thank you for clearing this up a bit for me.

jenperich
09-17-2007, 12:22 AM
I think that the fact that the Pats have been CONSISTENTLY good without "cheating" should be good reason that we won the game against the Jets. Eric Mangini is a "woos" that needs to get over the fact that Bill Belichek bid him farewell 2+ years ago. I'm sure there is plenty of cheating going on in his organization that he's well aware of. Hopefully, NE's predicament will bring along an NFL-wide investigation of all the cheating going on. Cheating is, unfortunately, part of EVERY sport. That's just my :twocents:.

kakn7294
09-17-2007, 08:40 AM
I was thinking more about this last night, watching the game of course. My thoughts are this: if you cheated on a test in school and got caught, you deserved to fail (and did fail) but the rest of the class didn't deserve to all get A's because you cheated. Along those same lines, if the Pats cheated - and even if they didn't, they certainly had the means to and it looks as if that's what they intended from the evidence - they don't deserve the win. However, the Jets didn't deserve to win that game either because they played poorly. So, why not take the win away from the Patriots but don't give it to the Jets either. Both teams take a loss. To me, this punishment seems to fit the crime more than taking away a draft pick and charging them a fine that they can easily afford.

jenperich
09-17-2007, 09:28 AM
There is absolutely NO telling whether or not the fact that the Pats may or may not have cheated caused them to win. This is ludicrous that people think that either, the Jets should just "get" to win...or that the win should be taken away from the Pats. The Pats win without "cheating", so I can't believe people just think the Jets would've won if the Pats hadn't done what they did. People are right by saying that cheating isn't right, but EVERYONE does it!!! The Pats got punished, leave it alone.

kakn7294
09-17-2007, 09:39 AM
There is absolutely NO telling whether or not the fact that the Pats may or may not have cheated caused them to win. This is ludicrous that people think that either, the Jets should just "get" to win...or that the win should be taken away from the Pats. The Pats win without "cheating", so I can't believe people just think the Jets would've won if the Pats hadn't done what they did. People are right by saying that cheating isn't right, but EVERYONE does it!!! The Pats got punished, leave it alone.
I don't know if you are meaning me saying that they definately cheated but if you are, then read more carefully because I specifically said we don't know if they actually cheated - I said that they obviously had the means to whether they did or not. I also didn't say to give the win to the Jets - in fact, I specifically said otherwise, that neither team should get the win. Back to my analogy about cheating in school - if you were caught with the means to cheat, whether you actually did or not, you would have failed. Therefore, if you were caught in the NFL with the means to cheat, whether you did or not, you should not be allowed to keep the win - and I'm only specifying this one game where they were caught with the means to cheat, not the entire season or any past games. And I would feel the same about any team who is caught, including the Steelers.

Ian
09-17-2007, 09:54 AM
I think that the fact that the Pats have been CONSISTENTLY good without "cheating" should be good reason that we won the game against the Jets. Eric Mangini is a "woos" that needs to get over the fact that Bill Belichek bid him farewell 2+ years ago. I'm sure there is plenty of cheating going on in his organization that he's well aware of. Hopefully, NE's predicament will bring along an NFL-wide investigation of all the cheating going on. Cheating is, unfortunately, part of EVERY sport. That's just my :twocents:.


There is absolutely NO telling whether or not the fact that the Pats may or may not have cheated caused them to win. This is ludicrous that people think that either, the Jets should just "get" to win...or that the win should be taken away from the Pats. The Pats win without "cheating", so I can't believe people just think the Jets would've won if the Pats hadn't done what they did. People are right by saying that cheating isn't right, but EVERYONE does it!!! The Pats got punished, leave it alone.I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but the fact that they cheated isn't even up for debate. They cheated, got caught, and admitted it. I'm not sure why you're implying that there's some doubt as to whether or not they cheated.

And also ... everyone does NOT do it. Do you really think the Packers and the Jets would have turned Belichek in if they were doing the same thing?? That's absurd. Of course not. No one would.

And let's be clear ... Mangini left the Pats to take a head coaching job, Belichek did not "bid him farewell" as you say. In fact, Belichek is the one holding a grudge against Mangini for leaving to go to a division rival in the first place.

I'm sorry, but you seem to have a very skewed perspective of reality here. The Pats DID cheat ... it DID affect the outcome of their games (otherwise they never would have done it in the first place, knowing it was against the rules), everyone else is NOT doing it, and it WILL taint the legacy of Belichek and the Pats (as it should).

Scar
09-17-2007, 10:50 AM
Eric Mangini is a "woos" that needs to get over the fact that Bill Belichek bid him farewell 2+ years ago.


I'm And let's be clear ... Mangini left the Pats to take a head coaching job, Belichek did not "bid him farewell" as you say. In fact, Belichek is the one holding a grudge against Mangini for leaving to go to a division rival in the first place.Also, I have heard rumors that Belichek begged Mangini to stay on for another year or two, saying that he would regret taking the Jets job and that a better job would come along in a year or two.

SBETigg
09-17-2007, 11:21 AM
I'm sorry, but you seem to have a very skewed perspective of reality here. The Pats DID cheat ... it DID affect the outcome of their games (otherwise they never would have done it in the first place, knowing it was against the rules), everyone else is NOT doing it, and it WILL taint the legacy of Belichek and the Pats (as it should).

Ian, almost everyone I've heard from in football and sports reporting has said that everyone does it. Maybe not the same way, and to varying degrees, but the professional response was pretty clear that it goes on at all levels and the Pats were targeted for exposure most likely due to bad blood and flouting the previous warning. No excuse for the Pats, bad form.

Also, the same sources report that what the Pats were doing had absolutely no bearing on that game against the Jets, but could easily have affected future games. Still shameful behavior and disappointing for the fans.

Ian
09-17-2007, 11:34 AM
Everyone tries to steal signals, yes. That's not against the rules.

But as far as I know, I haven't heard ANYONE say that they know that other teams use video and audio equipment to do it, which is clearly against the rules.

I flat out refuse to believe that anyone would call someone out for cheating in a way that they, themselves, were also using. It's ridiculous.

Also, I think it's very telling that almost every NFL pundit and unnamed source that's spoken on the issue has expressed shock and disappointment that Belichek wasn't suspended.

Honestly, at first my feelings were sort of, "Eh, who cares?" but the more I learn about it and the more I think on it, it's really starting to bother me quite a bit.

Also, now there are new allegations coming out of New York that the Patriots illegally micced their defensive lineman to pick up the Jets' audibles and offensive line calls and recorded those on a second camera.

To me, this looks like Belichek had a very comprehensive and complex system in place to cheat.

darthmacho
09-17-2007, 12:28 PM
Mangini left the Pats to take a head coaching job, Belichek did not "bid him farewell" as you say. In fact, Belichek is the one holding a grudge against Mangini for leaving to go to a division rival in the first place.

I'm sorry, but you seem to have a very skewed perspective of reality here. The Pats DID cheat ... it DID affect the outcome of their games (otherwise they never would have done it in the first place, knowing it was against the rules), everyone else is NOT doing it, and it WILL taint the legacy of Belichek and the Pats (as it should).

I'm not commenting on what you said to defend what Belichik did, but I have 3 things to add to what you are saying here that I feel are relevent that might or might not conflict with your point of view. In either case, I don't mean it as a personal attack against you or your viewpoint. :mickey:

1. Although Belichik's system appears to be more elaborate and sophisticated, my gut feeling is that other teams do similar things in order to get an edge. Madden admitted in last night's commentary that he engaged in such practices when he was a coach. Obviously, Belicheck got way too arrogant, and decided to take this practice to the extreme. He, and his peers, were warned to stop, and he clearly did not. That was very arrogant, it was wrong, and now the team will pay.

2. If the legacy of the Patriots is tainted, then so is the career of Eric Mangini. He may have left for a better job that was offered to him, but he would never have been offered that job if the Patriots were not so successful. He must have been okay with the cheating so long as it advanced his career. To me, Eric "Boy"gini is a hypocrite.

3. I think the Patriots proved last night that they are a good team and can beat the best without cheating. I hope this continues to be true.

Scar
09-17-2007, 01:09 PM
2. If the legacy of the Patriots is tainted, then so is the career of Eric Mangini. He may have left for a better job that was offered to him, but he would never have been offered that job if the Patriots were not so successful. He must have been okay with the cheating so long as it advanced his career. To me, Eric "Boy"gini is a hypocrite.Mangini was a defensive coach for the Patriots. How could stealing the other team’s defensive signals help him? Unless of course you are insinuating that the Patriots were also stealing offensive signals, which would pretty much mean they were tapping into the other team’s wireless communications.

And how is he being a hypocrite? I haven’t heard him say one thing about this.

Ian
09-17-2007, 03:07 PM
No offense taken, Mr. Macho. I'm used to people disagreeing with me. ;)

My opinion on Mangini is ... too early to tell. My initial reaction is to say that he probably wasn't involved, since (as Scar points out) they were stealing defensive signals not offensive signals. It's entirely possible that Mangini was completely unaware of what was going on.

Doubtful, but possible ...

darthmacho
09-18-2007, 12:44 PM
Mangini was a defensive coach for the Patriots. How could stealing the other team’s defensive signals help him? Unless of course you are insinuating that the Patriots were also stealing offensive signals, which would pretty much mean they were tapping into the other team’s wireless communications.

And how is he being a hypocrite? I haven’t heard him say one thing about this.

Eric Mangini was the one to open this whole can of worms, and perhaps it was best for the NFL that he did, However, although he (his unit) might not have been directly benefitting from the video taping, the success of the Patriots benefitted him greatly.

What I am saying is that if the success of the Patriots is tainted, so is his, because he was a part of that team. That same success got him his job with the Jets. Suddenly when the cheating is working against him, he thinks it is wrong? That is hypocritical.

Again, I'm not defending the wrongdoing, just pointing out that Eric Mangini should get off his high horse and remember that he was wallowing in that same mud once too. I can't prove it, but chance are he was able to recognize the guy doing the taping, perhaps he had seen him before? Could that have been the times when they were on the same sideline?

I don't mean this argument as a personal attack on your point of view Scar, I'm just clarifying what I had stated previously, which you questioned, perhaps since I didn't make my statement entirely clear. :mickey:

Scar
09-18-2007, 02:06 PM
I don't mean this argument as a personal attack on your point of view Scar,...I know, those darn moderator alerts, they're ruining this forum. ;)

Two points:

1.) I don’t think you can automatically say that Mangini got the job because of the Patriots success as a whole. There are many cases of coordinators getting head coaching jobs because their unit was successful, not the team as a whole.

2.) We don’t know what Mangini’s level of involvement, if any, was in Belichick’s scheme. For all we know, maybe he told Belichick he shouldn’t be doing it. We also don’t know what his involvement was last week. We know the Packers reported it to the NFL last year, maybe the NFL told the Jets to be on the lookout for it.

By the way, I’m not a Jets fan. I just don’t think it’s fair to be bashing Mangini when we don’t know all the facts. Well, except for the fact that that Belichick was cheating.

Oh, and I also want to repeat what I said in my first post that it probably shouldn’t be illegal in the first place.

Jasper
09-18-2007, 03:14 PM
You know what really bothers me the most about all this? Several people here and in the media have either said or implied that "if you are not cheating, you are not trying."

What kind of society have we built when this becomes so commonly accepted as a way of life? I for one think that the penalty is nothing more than a slap on the wrist and should be much more severe.

And don't think that I say that just because it was a football incident, I also said the same thing about NASCAR, Baseball, Cycling, and other places when cheating has happened. Until the "stars" of these sports are either removed from the sport or in some other way are penalized in a drastic way then we are going to continue to see these issues.

battlefield2freak
09-18-2007, 03:35 PM
You know what really bothers me the most about all this? Several people here and in the media have either said or implied that "if you are not cheating, you are not trying."

What kind of society have we built when this becomes so commonly accepted as a way of life? I for one think that the penalty is nothing more than a slap on the wrist and should be much more severe.

And don't think that I say that just because it was a football incident, I also said the same thing about NASCAR, Baseball, Cycling, and other places when cheating has happened. Until the "stars" of these sports are either removed from the sport or in some other way are penalized in a drastic way then we are going to continue to see these issues.

the reason you are seeing ppl sayin "if youur not cheating your not trying is because ladainian tolinson said that about patriots in a interview before the NE vs SD game sunday. he meant it as a joke though.

just to say something now its teh jets under fire about cheating. this is the news article i just read on the NFL site:

Billick: Jets 'illegally' simulated snap count on Sunday

Associated Press

OWINGS MILLS, Md. - Ravens coach Brian Billick accused the New York Jets of using an "illegal" ploy to draw Baltimore offside during Sunday's game.

Billick said Monday that the Jets' defense shouted out signals to intentionally throw off the Baltimore offense. Billick claimed the tactic led to the three illegal procedure penalties against the Ravens.

"They did an outstanding job. I credit the New York Jets. Their defensive line and linebackers did a very, very effective job of illegally simulating the snap count," Billick said. "They did it the whole game long. It needs to be caught."

Tackle Adam Terry bolted offside in the first and third quarters. Tight end Quinn Sypniewski jumped in the first quarter.

"That's not an excuse by any stretch of the imagination. But it is illegal," Billick said. "Our guys have to deal with it. I don't know how to help my linemen with that because, you're in the heat of battle and you're calling the snap count, and the guy across from you is also calling a snap count - which is illegal."

The Ravens won the game 20-13. Baltimore took a 20-3 lead into the fourth quarter but nearly wilted under a comeback by the Jets, who benefited from four fourth-quarter penalties against Baltimore.

For the game, New York received two penalties for 10 yards and the Ravens were penalized 11 times for 100 yards.

"You have to look at the nature of the penalties. First off, the fact that we had 11 penalties and they only had two and we dominated the game," Billick said. "I have a hard time understanding that the team that was playing so well and dominating had so many penalties and the other team had only two."

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved

makes you wonder with the fact they had 2 penalties for 10 yards and ravens with 11 for 100 yds. seems the jets may be up to something aswell

Scar
09-18-2007, 03:52 PM
1. This definitely should not be illegal.

2. If it is, why weren’t the refs calling it?

3. As evidenced by the final score, I see it really helped.

What's next, make the crowd quiet down like in tennis?

battlefield2freak
09-18-2007, 04:08 PM
i wasnt watching this game so i cant comment on it but the penalties figures jump out at me the most. im just curious what the figures were before halftime. also i havent read up on the rules for a while so i wouldnt know if this is illegal or not but it sounds to me that it would be. to me the plkayers get the biggst influence from the fans cheering them on so more than likely they wont make them be quiet but i get your point.

Epc0tphr34k
09-19-2007, 10:37 AM
read this morning on the ticker on nfl network that the patriots are being forced to turn in tapes from as far back as 2000.

battlefield2freak
09-19-2007, 03:19 PM
that has been up on the nfl site for about 3 days now. they said they are compling with the nfl in their search by handing over any notes, tapes etc. they may have taken.

FatherForce
10-12-2007, 03:43 PM
Love the PAtriots or hate them, Bill Belicheck and the Patriot organization have never been known for the adherance to the rules or even class.

It has been common knowledge that the Patriots will do anything to win, like shutting off opponents headsets, coming out and clearing snow off of just their kicker's area, abusing the secondary rules so much that new rules had to be put into place, etc.

If you're a Patriots fan, good for you, and I understand rooting for a winner, but don't ever pretend you have the sportsmanship high ground.

diz_girl
10-12-2007, 03:43 PM
I know that I'm drudging this topic back up, but here's my :twocents:

I agree with whichever Philadelphia Eagle (Jevon Kearse? Jeremiah Trotter ? - I know that it begins with a J.) said that they wonder if they were cheated out of a Superbowl ring because of this kind of cheating. Yes, I'm still sore about that loss - and the loss to the Raiders too. I wouldn't be surprised if a fan of any team that lost a Superbowl, AFC Championship game or other playoff game to the Pats felt the same way. If this was mentioned in a previous post, sorry for the repetition.

Donald A
10-12-2007, 06:54 PM
Love the PAtriots or hate them, Bill Belicheck and the Patriot organization have never been known for the adherance to the rules or even class.

It has been common knowledge that the Patriots will do anything to win, like shutting off opponents headsets, coming out and clearing snow off of just their kicker's area, abusing the secondary rules so much that new rules had to be put into place, etc.

If you're a Patriots fan, good for you, and I understand rooting for a winner, but don't ever pretend you have the sportsmanship high ground.

My Browns played the Patriots last Sunday and obviously got beat or cheated against (Who knows, really). The organization just lacks any class at all. I am not a sore loser, but I just think about the play where Mike Vrabel came across the line and almost knocked our QB out on a spiked play to stop the clock where he knew Cleveland would spike the ball. This is me, who in the 3rd grade sat next to Mike Vrabel in Sunday School class, complaining about a fellow NE Ohioan. However, for Vrabel to not comment except to say he didn't hear the whistle is absurd. If he doesn't know that the Browns are in the situation and will spike the ball, he shouldn't be playing.

This is just another example how this team operates from the top down. I have no respect for this organization that plays dirty and are proven cheaters.

battlefield2freak
10-14-2007, 08:55 PM
My Browns played the Patriots last Sunday and obviously got beat or cheated against (Who knows, really). The organization just lacks any class at all. I am not a sore loser, but I just think about the play where Mike Vrabel came across the line and almost knocked our QB out on a spiked play to stop the clock where he knew Cleveland would spike the ball. This is me, who in the 3rd grade sat next to Mike Vrabel in Sunday School class, complaining about a fellow NE Ohioan. However, for Vrabel to not comment except to say he didn't hear the whistle is absurd. If he doesn't know that the Browns are in the situation and will spike the ball, he shouldn't be playing.

This is just another example how this team operates from the top down. I have no respect for this organization that plays dirty and are proven cheaters.

no you got beat by the beatter team and this is really getting irratating to see all the ppl who think they know why the patriots can win so many games. tonights win at dallas proves the patriots dont need ot cheat to beat big teams like the cowboys. and not to make you mad but cleveland doesnt play football as hard as they should if they did they would have won the game against the patriots probably but they dont have alot of talent. dont get mad just because the patriots have some of the best talent in the league and that they know how ot get it done without cheating. and its like none of the other NFL teams have ever been caught cheating but once the patriots are caught its the worst thing that ever happened and everyone gets mad over nothing.

WDWfanatic742
10-15-2007, 10:24 AM
Guys and Gals, no reason to make any of this personal and directed at someone :cop: