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disneyfunatics
07-12-2007, 11:55 AM
To all-

There is a GREAT article on the Motley Fool website, asking the question, "Should Disney Buy Cedar Fair"? In a nutshell, they own 12 amusement parks, including the famous Cedar Point Amusement Park, and a half-dozen waterparks that draw nearly 25 million guests annually. They are VERY family friendly. Here are some the the other interesting points made in the story:

Disney's got its eye on playing small ball already. Back in February, Disney hosted an investor conference in Florida where it presented concept art of outreach attractions in new markets. From urban entertainment centers to themed resorts to indoor waterparks, Disney is thinking about expansion on a smaller scale. Cedar Fair would give it established canvases to work its magic on several dispersed markets.

Music-driven entertainment is back at Disney. High School Musical is hot. Hannah Montana has the top-selling CD in the country this past week. Cedar Fair's properties would serve as great promotional platforms and pave obvious trails for limited summer tours.

Cedar Fair is pretty dry on character-powered intellectual capital, so it has to pay to license characters like the Peanuts gang or the stars of Viacom's Nickelodeon. Disney's deep bench would shave licensing costs and boost merchandising margins in a way that no private equity firm could improve upon. It's not all Mickey and Winnie the Pooh, here. Muppets, Pirates of the Caribbean, and Nightmare Before Christmas are Disney franchises that appeal to older audiences, too.

One of Cedar Fair's best moves was building resorts on the Cedar Point peninsula. It's a model that Disney has perfected, and Disney has the financial fortitude to expand Cedar Fair's other parks into resort properties.

Cedar Fair's Castaway Bay lodge with an indoor waterpark is a proven vehicle if Disney wants to take on Great Wolf Resorts in that niche.
Giving regional amusement parks a more family friendly spin is something that Six Flags is presently doing. If Six Flags is too successful, it may attract families that would have been headed for one of Disney's parks. Taking a similar approach within Cedar Fair may force Six Flags to try a different tact to stand out.

Disney will still be able to resell any of the properties that don't fit into its master plan. If Knott's Berry Farm is too close for Disneyland comfort, it should be an easy park to sell. Paramount's Canadian park supposedly was a hotly contested property when Cedar Fair swallowed the chain whole. In short, Disney can always cash out of specific properties, or even the entire waterpark chain, if it wanted to.

Cedar Fair has been a technological laggard, whereas Disney is on the forefront of digital in-park photography, line reservation systems, and creating interactive websites. The upgrades would be lucrative and easy to implement.
So, what does the Intercot gang think?:mickey::mickey::mickey:

Red Randal
07-12-2007, 12:02 PM
I think Disney buying Cedar Fair would be a colossal, AOL-Time Warner sized, mistake. Disney already has more parks than it knows what to do with. Maybe at some point in the distant future, when they run out of room or, more likely, the infrastructure in WDW can no longer support new theme parks (we're talking, like, 50 to 60 years in the future here) then they can begin to think about expanding. And even then, why would Disney bother buying parks around the country, many of which are money-pits in the first place, when they could just buy up land in Texas, Missouri, Virginia, Mexico, the Caribbean, or somewhere else and build from scratch.

And before we even get into a huge debate about this, is Cedar Fair even for sale?

mttafire
07-12-2007, 02:03 PM
Cedar Fair owns IMHO, the BEST non Disney park there is, Kings Island near Cincinnati. No they are not for sale and no Disney should not and will not buy them.

Polynesian Dweller
07-12-2007, 02:21 PM
Cedar Fair owns IMHO, the BEST non Disney park there is, Kings Island near Cincinnati. No they are not for sale and no Disney should not and will not buy them.

Cedar Fair has been looking at the possibility of selling to Private Equity. Whether they would is another question.

In terms of Disney, there's no reason why they should really. First, those kinds of parks are not really in the Disney mould or concept. Second, as another poster indicated, they could easily buy land in lots of areas (I would also include Canada in that list) and develop their own parks from the conceptual ground up.

GrumpyFan
07-12-2007, 07:03 PM
I had heard that Cedar Fair was entertaining the idea of selling, but never thought about the possibility of Disney buying them. IMO, this would be a stupid idea, if they were to do so. While they may both be in the same business, they are two completely separate identities and it just wouldn't fit into the Disney portfolio without some major re-working.

So, I say NO WAY!

lockedoutlogic
07-12-2007, 07:15 PM
Once upon a time there was a Sea World in Aurora, Ohio...which apparently sounded better than "Cleveland"....

Once upon a time...Anheiser Busch said..."to heck with dolphins in the tundra...let's sell this puppy and stay in the south"...and sold to Six Flags...who also bought the adjacent Geauga Lake...

Then Six Flags said "heck...we're losing our shirts in these cold weather parks...let's sell this puppy"

Then, the white knight called Cedar Fair rode and took care of them both...

Now Cedar Fair wants to sell it's self and it's northern, seasonal amusement and water parks.

The difference being...that cedar fairs seasonal parks can be run by 80% seasonal help and not incur costs such as health care and retirement benefits...
Disney on the other hand...can't survive on that type of labor and has an almost entirely full time, permanent staff...

Moral of the Story:
Disney should buy cedar fair the minute Cleveand is referred to as "the tahiti of the west"

that about clear that one up?

Besides...what's disney going to do with a park with 16 coasters that breakdown all the time? they can't even handle test track...

JPL
07-12-2007, 09:44 PM
I can't even imagine this happening as the capital Disney would have to put into this investment initially and then bringing the parks up to Disney standards and retheming them would be astronomical.

SgtTigger
07-12-2007, 09:59 PM
My opinion is easy.....

NO



Huge mistake..............





:cop: :tigger:

battlefield2freak
07-13-2007, 09:49 AM
i never want to see disney buy a park like cedar fair bc it wont be he same as a disney park. for one reason there is no castle lol or signature building like the WDW parks

CleveSJM
07-13-2007, 10:12 AM
I'd say no. It would blend two niche markets and hurt each side. The upscale DIS (Disney) brand would get diluted and "cheapened". And the economical FUN (Cedar Fair) brand could be seen as getting too fancy.

It would be like RUTH (Ruth's Chris) buying APPB (Applebee's). Not good for either...

PS - All public companies are actively for sale.

Tekneek
07-13-2007, 10:35 AM
If it were up to me, I would say no. I would never buy something like that when I still have things on 'seasonal' status or effectively boarded up (Wonders of Life) in any of my existing parks. Nevermind the taking of profits while deciding to outsource guest services. I am primarily interested in quality and enough profit to stay in business, while Wall Street is mainly interested in quantity/growing profits and apparently has no time for quality.

TheRustyScupper
07-14-2007, 12:22 AM
1) I, personally, hope Disney would not buy CF.
2) The Cf guys do know how to run parks.
3) And they put money back into the parks.
4) They have at least one major new ride about every 2-yrs.
5) They were adding rides while Disney was cutting back.
6) Plus, they don't close/abandon rides like Disney does.

Tekneek
07-14-2007, 10:30 AM
1) I, personally, hope Disney would not buy CF.
2) The Cf guys do know how to run parks.
3) And they put money back into the parks.
4) They have at least one major new ride about every 2-yrs.
5) They were adding rides while Disney was cutting back.
6) Plus, they don't close/abandon rides like Disney does.

You touch on great points. Disney would make CF "efficient", which means to close stuff as much as possible, borrow stuff between parks instead of creating/buying new things, and run off with every extra penny they can get their hands on.

AndrewJackson
07-14-2007, 10:34 AM
Disney already has one poorly themed "theme" park, California Adventure. Why would they want to buy a dozen more?

If Disney decides they want to operate small seasonal parks around the country (which I doubt they ever will) they should build them from the ground up.

In the last annual report, there was conceptual art of these new concepts Disney is considering. They should build these entertainment districts and indoor water parks around existing competitors' theme parks. It would be good for Disney, and the competition.

DonaldDuck1117
07-15-2007, 08:50 PM
I live in Michigan and am only 2 and a half hours away from the gem of Cedar fair, Cedar Point. Don't poo poo this park, it has won "the best amusement park" award for the past 8 years straight, no Disney park has ever won that award.

Now they are two very different parks. Cedar Point has 17 roller coasters, and they are not the tame little ones run at Disney. Disney's scariest coaster, Rockin Roller Coaster doesn't even come close to Cedar Point's scream machines. We are taking one that is 310 feet tall with a 300 foot drop and speeds of 92 mph. If that wasn't enough they also built one that is 420 feet with a 400 foot drop straight down, with a max speed of 120 mph.

Disney most certainly would make a profit with Cedar Point, the only thing is that they couldn't buy the park and put the typical Disney rides, they would HAVE to build BIG, FAST, SCARY roller coasters and thrill rides to have the park survive.

I believe Rockin Roller Coaster is the fastest ride at Disney topping out at 57 mph. That ride would only be the 8th fastest coaster at the Cedar Point park. If Disney were to take over Cedar Point they would have to know what the park goers crave there. We don't go to Cedar Point for the theming, or the live shows, we go for the coasters. We go to be dropped, flipped, launched and thrown around by the big coasters until our heart's content. Lines get long, if you go on a day where lines AVERAGE 1 HOUR long you are lucky, and Cedar Point wins awards on best capacity. There's a reason why they call themselves "America's Roller Coast."

If Disney buys them they would HAVE to continue the Coaster building that we have come to expect, which is a major new coaster every 2 years.

battlefield2freak
07-15-2007, 09:53 PM
really no one in this hread has said anything bad about cedarpoint. Disney would make a profit by owning them but they will never do it bc they are a family park not a roller coaster park and there is not alot of rides at the park with the kind of theme disney puts into there rides, and people go to disney because they put time and effort into making the ride look good and running smoothly, and for the magical feel they get just being there and only a park like WDW or DLR can offer the experience a lasting experience. and if disney does buy them that doensnt mean they should have to continue building rollercoasters. as a side note when i was on cedarpoints web site the numbers of riders in the past 10 years have dropped alot. just my opinions on this

GrmGrninGost
07-15-2007, 10:35 PM
No way should Disney buy CF! They are so totally different there is no way to compare them! Sure, Disney could make money with the CF parks. But, they could also have made many more millions by continuing to produce the cheap direct to video sequels they have recently put a stop to. The Disney crowd expects more than just a cheap thrill! They want a park the whole family can enjoy! They want the atmosphere only Disney has been able to provide! They want the MAGIC! We want Walt's dream!:mickey:

DonaldDuck1117
07-15-2007, 11:48 PM
Well I just don't want people to think that Cedar Fair is on the same level as Six Flags, there is no comparison Cedar Fair's parks are better in every aspect.

Another point is that if Disney does buy Cedar Fair they wouldn't need to make it Magic Kingdom Ohio, or Disneyland Michigan. They could own and operate the parks, but keep the parks in the same shape that they are in now. Just because Disney owns the parks doesn't mean they would make them Disney like parks. It would open up a brand new area for Disney in the amusement park world, mainly the thrill park and thrill seekers.

lockedoutlogic
07-16-2007, 09:24 AM
Well I just don't want people to think that Cedar Fair is on the same level as Six Flags, there is no comparison Cedar Fair's parks are better in every aspect.

Another point is that if Disney does buy Cedar Fair they wouldn't need to make it Magic Kingdom Ohio, or Disneyland Michigan. They could own and operate the parks, but keep the parks in the same shape that they are in now. Just because Disney owns the parks doesn't mean they would make them Disney like parks. It would open up a brand new area for Disney in the amusement park world, mainly the thrill park and thrill seekers.


Since Day 1...Disneyland and the subsequent Disney parks have had certain goals:

1. Appeal to all ages
2. Promotion of Disney's media products
3. (here's the kicker) And outlet for Disney merchandise and product....which leads to word of mouth marketing at home and also spurs more repeat business

These goals are public and not really disputed. Now, if that is true. Cedar Point...while great...wouldn't serve those goals without massive retheming...heck...they may have to extend the island out towards Canada.

So they could never "leave it alone"...they would have to alter it into a more disney setup to do anything with it.....and what do you do? Turn the Magnum, Mantis, and Mean Streak into Themed restaurants?

Cedar Point is a great park...and better than most....but it is not far and away different than alot of amusement parks as far as technology or asthetics...

I can think of several that are either on the same level technologically....or more beautiful as traditional parks....

Just off the top of my head...
1. Kennywood (my home park:thumbsup: )
2. The Busch Gardens- Fla. and VA. (those are the closest theme parks to a disney park...along with Universal's)
3. Kings Island
4. Six Flags Great Adventure (though it's been filled with gangbangers for years)
5. Six Flags Magic Mountain


Just to name a few....

battlefield2freak
07-16-2007, 09:33 AM
exactly and in case you all dont know this, this year a new shop opened in my local six flags park and the store was a small disney shop, yea i know surprised me. and when i was checking the cedar point sight a while back they had some small rides it appeared so they attempt to appeal to all ages, but if i wanted to go to a park that would appeal to everyone i would go to kings island because its themed ( a little ), got family, kids, and thrill rides, and theres no lines hardly so you get to ride again alot more then u would at cedar point.

DonaldDuck1117
07-16-2007, 11:00 PM
You couldn't just add land out towards Canada. For one the price would be too much no company, not even Disney would think of doing that. Second, Cedar Point still has a lot of land to develop.

I still hold that Disney would not have to "Disna-fy" Cedar Point. Sure, they could add characters, but they wouldn't have to promote it at the new Disneyland. They could promote it as what it is, the world's best amusement park, with just a little but of Disney magic sprinkled in. Add some new restaurants, a few gift shops, a character meet and greet, but don't turn it into a full blown Disney park. In fact if they tried to do that (make it Magic Kingdom Ohio) the park would fail miserably. Cedar Point's target audience isn't families, they attract the thrill seekers, which are teens, 20's and 30's. If Disney were to ever buy Cedar Point they would have to stay true to Cedar Point's tradition.

lockedoutlogic
07-16-2007, 11:39 PM
first...the canada thing was a joke....

second...that isle seems pretty crammed to me...at this point wouldn't development be basically taking up the parking lot or dumping mud into the water to build on?

third...they absolutely would have to disney-fy a park that they purchased....no question
There brand is their business. without a certain type of enviroment or asthtetic appeal, they have no market to pull from. they can't put a mickey mouse infront of a 175 foot tall B&M coaster and call it a disney park. It just simply would not sell.

Some of the "cost cutting" measures they took in constructing MGM, AK, DLP, and DCA are still giving them headaches that they are trying to address....and all of those projects were still far more expensive pound for pound than anything a more traditional amusement park has added in the same timeframe...

I'm not trying to be argumentative...but simply putting the disney lettering on an existing thrillpark will never work....it has to be total sensory immersion...or people will not buy it as disney and just go back to WDW or Disneyland...

DonaldDuck1117
07-17-2007, 02:06 AM
people will not buy it as disney and just go back to WDW or Disneyland...

Well that's the point I am trying to make, no matter how hard Disney tried to turn it into a classic Disney park it would not sell. One, families would be upset because there is just not a whole lot to do for the little ones at Cedar Point. Second, the traditional audience, thrill seekers, would be turned off because Disney is not know for the big thrills they have come to expect from Cedar Point.

An example is McDonalds and Chipotle resturants. For a period of 6 years McDonalds owned Chipotle, but you would never know it. No Ronald, no burgers, nor fries, no happy meals, no golden arches. Disney could VERY well do the same with Cedar Point, meaning they would NOT market it as a classic Disney park, but advertise it for what it is, a thrill park.

Just because it has the Disney name on it doesn't mean it has to scream Disneyland/Magic Kingdom. Look at those Disney Adventure things, not a whole lot of classic Disney in them, same concepts.

And just as a side note Cedar Point has been "running out of room" for decades now, but they keep expanding and putting rides in, not over the parking lot either.

brownie
07-17-2007, 10:21 AM
I don't know that this would be such a great idea. People's expectations are pretty high for what Disney does, and the Cedar Fair parks are different enough from the Disney parks that Disney could be setting themselves up for missing people's expectations.

I think they'd really be getting away from their core business by buying Cedar Fair, and I think it would distract their focus.

Donald A
07-17-2007, 10:07 PM
I have held season passes for both Cedar Point and Geauga Lake (during different years) when I lived in Ohio. Geauga Lake was boring and Cedar Point was cool for thrill rides bar none. These parks lack any theming at all. I always described Cedar Point as "big rides and long lines." It seems like all you do is wait in line. This kind of thing is not a family destination where you take grandma and grandpa. It is where teenage boys go with there friends after they graduate HS and where everyone goes after prom.

I am not sure if King's Island is Cedar Fair, but I think it is terrible. My wife and I took a weekend trip here last summer and we were terribly disappointed and left after riding 4 rides.

Disney should absolutely, positively NOT touch Cedar Fair. This is not competition for Disney and Disney would either:
1) Have to lower their standards to operate these parks. Keep in mind these parks are not staffed by cast members but college kids on summer break. Cedar Point is only open half of the year.
OR
2) Invest lots of money to bring these parks (for the half year they are open) in line with "Walt's Dream" and lose the uniqueness of what they already have.

WEDTOPIA
07-18-2007, 09:59 PM
This is the dumbest rumour of all time. There is no way that Disney will ever buy any traditional amusement park anywhere , for any reason. If anyone is thinking that Disney could run it a la Miramax or even Touchstone , and be a sort of "silent " partner , you are mistaken. This is a whole different ball of wax.

In the world of theme parks there are 2 players - Disney , and everyone else. Even the term " theme park " really only refers to Disney , because no else trys to truly theme the entirety of their parks.

No one really cares if Paramount , or Cedar Fair , or Busch , or even Universal Studios is the owner behind their regional parks.However, once it is known that Disney owns Cedar Point , or Carowinds , or Kings Dominion , or Kings Island etc. , the rules change overnight and expectations go through the roof . Everyone will expect massive changes. Disney could never explain their intention to run coaster parks that are nothing like their theme parks , and expect people to simply accept them merely as the new landlords.

Walt Disney World serves the Midwest , South ,and East Coast. Disneyland serves the West. Anything else would be overkill ,dilution , and a cheapening of the Disney name.

And besides that ,what do think would happen to the real Disney parks ,once Disney started running a bunch of seasonal , regional parks ? If you think the quality of operation has been on the decline now , wait and see what happens when they turn the company into another Six Flags.

BrerSchultzy
07-19-2007, 10:05 AM
Motley Fool also thought the ABC/Cap Cities purchase was brilliant......

Anyway, I understand the idea that if Disney bought Cedar Fair, they wouldn't have to Disneyfy it...but it wouldn't work.

Like WEDTOPIA said, whether Disney WANTS to stay silent or not, those parks would be expected to be of the caliber of MK and DL. I mean, just look at all the "Disney's Buying Land in *INSERT HOMETOWN HERE*" threads...when people hear "Disney" and "land" they think Walt Disney World. Not Kings Dominion.

If Eisner were still in charge, I'd say it's possible, but with Lasseter and Iger running things....there is no way this would happen. They understand that you can't make a buck today at the expense of five bucks tomorrow.